Do Mormons think Mormonism is ultimately true and important?

Mormons seem conflicted over whether their own religion is even important enough, if false, to refute. I have to wonder if there is a kind of unconscious, latent atheism or agnosticism or even nihilism in the heart of Mormons who think this way—or at least a bottom-layer heart-orientation away from the importance of truth. Allow me to express this seeming conflict in a caricature:

“Mormonism is the most important religion, institution, and belief system on earth. It is the kingdom of God on earth. We have the oracles of God. We have the plan of salvation to which you should dedicate all your time, money, emotions, and thoughts. We have the vehicle by which your family can be saved, to which you ought to gear your entire family tree. We are the only true Church on earth. We most accurately represent the Lord Jesus Christ.

“But hey, if you decide that we’re not true, then don’t you dare say one critical thing about us, and don’t you dare spend any time trying to bring us down. After all, it’s not that big of a deal. Leave us alone.”

Here is what I’m asking: Do Mormons want to be left alone essentially because they think Mormonism is still worth believing even if it is false?

One of my ex-Mo Christian friends offered up an alternative explanation for the oddity. She expresses Mormon logic this way:

“If it is true, you shouldn’t attack it even if you disagree with it. Even if it isn’t true, well, we don’t have to follow that to its logical conclusion because it IS true! Really! So just don’t attack it.”

Whatever the case, Mormons don’t seem to have absorbed what their own leaders have said about this:

“Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954), vol. 1 pp 188-189)

Personally, I’m not convinced that Mormons take Mormonism’s truth-claims that seriously. They are useful, but not necessarily true. Worth defending, but if false, not worth refuting. They have prioritized sociology over theology. Culture over truth. Church over Jesus. Mores and norms of the community over the glory of God. Feeling-driven beliefs over belief-driven feelings. As someone once said, “The Mormon Church has outgrown the need to be true.” My Mormon friends, Jesus wants you to be encouraged:

“And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

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139 Responses to Do Mormons think Mormonism is ultimately true and important?

  1. reggiewoodsyall says:

    Haha… You guys are great. To be blunt, I’ll answer questions that are asked of me that seem to be genuine and not argumentative. So far, Kate, Rick B, and Falcon (per my perception) seem argumentative towards me. There’s a difference between sharing what I believe to be true and arguing with someone who is ready to blast you at every corner. I’ll pass on your questions Rick B and Falxon. Ask more nicely please!?! Haha.

    Okay, one question for me was about my confidence that I’m living a good life. I feel that I’m living a good life because I have faith in Christ, and I strive to follow his example and teachings by loving my God and my neighbor. I am far from perfect, but I try to do his will.

    Another question that was asked of me was Regardig where the gospel is taught. I think Ralph asked about this. If you are asking what church I believe has the fullness of the gospel, I would say the LDS church. If I didnt believe that, I would be a part of the church. I’m assuming you believe your church that you attend teaches the fullness of the gospel. If you don’t beleive that, then you should find another church to attend. Now, I’m not saying that true principles are not taught anywhere else in the world, and our prophets do not suggest this either. Truth is taught in many places by many people.

    One question from Kate was, “are you kidding me”. My answer to that is “no”.

    Falcon asked a question about God. First article of faith. We have one God, although we can become like him, he is our God.

  2. Mike R says:

    Helen, respectfully but you really are trying to hard to prove others wrong here. The way
    you just handled the seer stone on the alter question was so strange. Kate hit the nail on the
    head . This has absolutely nothing to do with a woman’s nature to be concerned about
    details and Falcon merely asked a question about this stone being worshipped ( considering
    some Mormons were worshipping Adam because of B.Y.’s teaching , asking a question like
    this is not that odd ). Concerning the Book of Mormon and Jacob 2:30 , this has already
    been addressed, you testified that the Book of Mormon does not teach polygamy as part of
    the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is the whole issue , right ? Please , lets try and be a tad more
    objective in our comments on this forum. We should all be concerned with that.

  3. Rick B says:

    Reggie and Ralph,
    You both are the typical Mormon who have no love of Christ and cannot answer questions, so you dont.

    Reggie, You say, Sorry guys, I will not answer your questions becasue your not nice. Why not just be honest and say, Sorry I cannot answer you because I have no clue and dont know what my beliefe is.

    You say, I cannot or will not answer you becasue your not nice. Really? Can you show me from scripture where it teaches you do not have to answer questions or show the love of Christ because someone is mean? Thats a new one on me.

    Ralph, Your the same way, you have time to tell me I am wrong about a bible verse, and it’s your teachings that say the Bible cannot be fully trusted and is in error. Yet you dont have time to answer questions about what your Church teaches.

    I notice Falcon asked about teachings over and over, Did you even say Yes or no to them? No you did not. Sadly you have the time to tell me I am wrong on Scripture, but cannot find the time to teach me the truth I supposdly need from your Church.

    Then you both both find time to ” Correct” Us Christians, Yet as I said, You cannot “correct” your own for being wrong. I dont see you guys saying to Helen, You keep dodging questions, thats making us look bad, but why would you do that when you yourself Dodge questions.

    Then I dont expect any reply from Reggie since being honest to a mormon is the same as being mean and persucting them.

  4. Kate says:

    Argumentative toward you? Because I don’t agree with you and ask you to clarify Mormon teachings and why you believe they are true? How is that argumentative? What exactly do you think this site is for? It’s to show the truth of Mormon teachings to those who are questioning the Mormon religion, and to show the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. If you are wanting a feel good Mormon site with people who will hold your hand and tell you that what you believe is right, you are in the wrong place.

    Maybe you should take a look at your attitude and the mocking that you put out there before you judge others, from your very first post of ” You guys are all so funny! I come here for comic relief” to “Haha… I must be a different class of Mormon!” to “Ah… I spoke too soon. Rick B’s comments are much more like what I have experienced in the past. Haha. Sharp, critical, telling me what I am and what I believe. Thanks for the insights Rick B! ”

    I believe the question was “Who do you believe God is?” You know, just in the few comments that you have posted I can already tell that you are as clueless as I was about Mormon doctrine. The LDS church is not what it claims to be reggie. Please do more research, and before you tell me that you have already researched, I can tell by your answers that you haven’t.

  5. 4fivesolas says:

    Helen – Just a quick note. As I said, the Rapture is a non-essential. Meaning – there are different viewpoints among Christians on the end times, and you know what? It doesn’t matter. No one is orthodox or un-orthodox for believing or not-believing the Rapture. The Church body I am a member of has a different view (basically what I spelled out). If you looked at Christians throughout the world, I don’t think you would approach 70-80 percent believing in the Rapture, I would guess about 20 percent, but that’s just a guess. And you know what? It doesn’t matter!

    Now, who God is, forgiveness through Christ’s blood, whether one works their way to heaven or it is a free gift of grace – these are the essentials. Get these wrong and your soul is at risk – you may be worshipping the wrong god and thinking you’re earning your way to heaven, all the while you are just piling up more sin of self-righteousness and becoming further and further from the truth. These are the things we should be concerned about.

  6. Mike R says:

    Reggie, I was the one who asked you about the gospel, not Ralph ( Ralph is LDS like you).
    The point here is not that some other religions don’t live some good principles , principles
    of moral conduct that Jesus also taught , some indeed do. Rather, the whole point here is
    concerning the claims of Mormonism to be the one true Church preaching the one true gospel,
    all others being not approved by God . This is a common claim of false prophets. Would you
    kindly re-read my comment to you yesterday at 5:53 pm ? I sense that you’re trying to be to
    generic with this topic,( kinda sounds like the Mormon Church P.R. dept) . Please , do you
    realize how serious this is in light of Gal.1:8-9 and Matt 7:15 ? Thanks

  7. Brian says:

    Dear Helen,

    How are you today? I noticed a comment you made recently, and have a question for you. Helen said:

    “Christ promises if you will read the book of Mormon, study it, ponder upon its words and sincerely want know if it’s true and ask humbly with a deep desire to have it revealed unto you, then that promise will be fulfilled in a way you can not deny.”

    Reading this, it is not clear to me what the promise was. It looks like if one reads, studies, ponders, is sincere and humble, then … one is entitled to something?

    Let’s say that I read Romans 3:10. And I told everyone how much I liked this verse, and in fact the whole Bible. I could tell them I just knew it was true. And I would be correct. And yet, that verse speaks to the universal guilt of man. I would still stand condemned, wouldn’t I? I would still be condemned, even though I had spoken of the truthfulness of a book I believe with all my heart to be God’s very word. So far, the only promise I would have would be judgment. And the verdict is already in: guilty.

    The Bible contains hundreds and hundreds of promises God has made. Because of his love. Extended to undeserving human beings. One of these promises is found in John 5:24. What does this promise mean to you, Helen?

  8. helenlouissmith says:

    It’s a specific promise to those who read the Book of Mormon and to it’s truthfulness.
    That’s the promise contained therein.

    That’s quiet a promise, and God cannot lie. Some say they never received a answer, I am not going to try and get into the mind and soul of another human being, but I can testify it came as revelation to me.

  9. Brian says:

    Dear Reggie,

    Thank you for your response. Earlier, I’d asked about the basis of your confidence you were living a good life. And you explained,

    “I feel that I’m living a good life because I have faith in Christ, and I strive to follow his example and teachings by loving my God and my neighbor. I am far from perfect, but I try to do his will.”

    You have told us you have faith in Christ. Faith in him to … to do what?

    You have admitted that you are “far from perfect.” Did Jesus Christ live a perfect life? As this is so, living far from perfect means living far from the life Jesus lived.

    You’ve said that “I try.” I have no doubt about that, Reggie. I am sure you try. But if one wants to live in a perfect Heaven with a perfect God, one has to be perfect.

    You might be wondering, “But do you have a perfect life?” How would I answer that? I would answer it as follows. Yes, I have a perfect life. The reason I am already a citizen of Heaven is because I have a perfect life. Impossible? Well, I do have a perfect life. I just didn’t live it. Christ lived it for me.

  10. helenlouissmith says:

    It matter to all those who spend good money on buying up Rapture Books and want to believe that it is Biblical Doctrine.

    So what is Doctrine, kind of a pick and choose what best fits your own beliefs, that is not what Christ Taught, he even made mention that when all come in the unity of faith.

    Seems that the Priesthood and Offices of the Church are not so important anymore:

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

  11. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R. do you really believe Falcon was asking a serious question?

    “So the Mormon god accepted Joseph Smith’s Seer Stone as it laid upon the altar at the Manti temple. Do Mormons worship this magic rock?”

    If you don’t recognize mocking and ridiculing, then you are still a innocent. 🙂 Must be wonderful too go around making excuses for poor souls who knowingly mock and ridicule Mormons.

    Peace, 🙂

  12. grindael says:

    I’ll post this here, too, since it obviously got missed on another thread:

    CASE in point, “I understand that when the Mormon temple was dedicated in Manti that Joseph Smiths magic rock was placed on the altar.”

    Saying one heard; is this not just pure speculation without any factual foundation? I was called out for making a statement about what the Apostles and LDS taught as being the same in the Bible and was asked for scripture to prove my point.

    It isn’t speculation:

    “The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.” ~Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1956), 3:225.

    Magic rock on temple altar. So please, give it a rest. You’re wrong Helen, as usual.

  13. grindael says:

    It was done during the two day dedication:

    We Met in the Temple of the Lord at 10 oclok for Prayer after being Clothed in the Holy garments of the priesthood. George Q. Cannon was Mouth. I addressed the Brethren for a short time. Was followed By L Snow G Q Cannon B Young & F M Lyman. We then adjourned till 12 oclk.

    We Met at 12 oclok to Dedicate the Manti Temple. The Hymn was sung The Morning breaks the shadows flee. Then President Wilford Woodruff Kneeled upon the Altar and Offered up the dedicatory Prayer which Can be found Published in the Deseret News of May [ ] 1888 After which remarks were made By Wilford Woodruff, L. Snow G Q. Cannon B Young & F M Lyman. We then dismised.

    I felt to thank God that I had lived on the Earth to once More have the privilege of Dedicating another Temple in the Rocky Mountains unto the Most High God And I Pray God my Eternal Father that He will protect the Manti Temple and all other Temples we have built in them unto His Holy Name that they may Never go into the Hands of the Gentiles our Enemies to be defiled by them.

    Arthur Winters reported our remarks made after the offering up [of] the Prayer. After this Meeting we held a Council below.
    I received 5 Letters from Phebe Scholes Bell Moses Sarah, Mary & Newton. I wrote 3 Letters to Sarah Mary & Newton.

    I was informed that Dyer the receiver had made a Demand for the Logan Temple Tabernacle Tithing Office & all Church Property in Logan.

    I went to bed at 11.30 & slept until Morning.

    18 We Met in the upper room & I set Daniel H [p.500] Wells Apart to

  14. grindael says:

    Preside over the Temple. L Snow set apart A. H. Lund to be his Assistant. After Considerable Conversation we bid ade to All in the Temple.

    Before leaving I Consecrated upon the Altar the seers Stone that Joseph Smith found by Revelation some 30 feet under the Earth Carried By him through life.

    We left the Temple at 12 oclok. Rode to Ephraim Took dinner with Kanute Peterson. Then took Carriage at 2 oclok & we Crossed the Mountain to the rail Road Crossing 2 Miles North of Nephi and took a private Car and rode to the Farmers Word whare I arived at 2 oclok & went to bed for the night. 135 Miles. (Wilford Woodruff Journals, Vol. 8 page 499)

  15. grindael says:

    Falcon’s comment again,

    “I understand that when the Mormon temple was dedicated in Manti that Joseph Smiths magic rock was placed on the altar.”

    He doesn’t say during the Dedication CEREMONY. He says when the Temple was dedicated. It took two days, the calling and ordaining of the Temple President took place the next day, when the stone was consecrated.

    Your wrong Helen and Falcon’s comments are accurate. _johnny

  16. Sandi B. says:

    Reggie said ” If you are asking what church I believe has the fullness of the gospel, I would say the LDS church. If I didnt believe that, I would be a part of the church. I’m assuming you believe your church that you attend teaches the fullness of the gospel. If you don’t beleive that, then you should find another church to attend. Now, I’m not saying that true principles are not taught anywhere else in the world, and our prophets do not suggest this either. Truth is taught in many places by many people. ” Can we take that to mean that you don’t beleive Josephs Smith was told by God in the “first vision” that all other creeds are an abomination and join none of them” and that you do not believe that the Mormon chruch is the only true church on the face of the earth?”

  17. Sandi B. says:

    Cont. I do go to chruch, however not I do not beleive my chruch is the “only true chruch.” as I was taught that the Mormon church was when I was a Moromon. My faith is 100% in Jesus Christ. As part of my chruch I am part of the larger body of Christ. I beleive that 4/5 Solas outlined the essentials above so I will not do so again. The Mormon church is not the church that is presented in the Bible. Also Reggie, love in the Bible is not that sappy thing that we humans think it is. True love is telling the truth to someone who does not have it, in the face of ridicule from those they are trying to help. That is what the Christian posters on this site (many, including myself who were members of the Mormon church) are attempting here.

  18. Ralph says:


    I have been on this blog now for quite a while. I am the longest LDS member to contribute here. I have seen many of the questions regurgitated over and over. I have refuted about a third, given plausible answers to about a third and can’t answer the last third. I have also seen good/proper answers to some of the last 2 groups. But this site is against the LDS church and so many of the answers given are ignored or forgotten. Now that work is getting very time demanding, I am just using my time to point out obvious things rather than waste it arguing against deaf ears, since some of the question I have given answers to in the past.

    As far as Helen goes, she can answer the question she feels comfortable in answering. I am not going to pressure her just to satisfy you into something she doesn’t want to do, just like I am not pressuring you into answering any of my questions.

    And since when does not answering questions we don’t know an answer to not showing the love of Christ? I don’t see where the connection is there. I answer the ones I can truthfully and I don’t answer the ones I can’t so that is being truthful as well, because to give an answer when I don’t know it means I would have to make it up which is lying. And if I sent a post in every time I didn’t know an answer just saying “I don’t know” then I would be wasting the 6 posts I am allotted each day.

  19. falcon says:

    Perhaps you need to do a little more research. If you read further in Woodruff’s journals you’ll see:

    19 I arose & took breakfast & had an interview with Azmon who was in trouble with his wife Elizabeth. He wanted to separate from her. I spent the day at the House. I had an interview with Sister Ship and gave her a Bill to go the the Temple or ticket.
    20 Sunday I spent the day reading mostly.
    21 May To day is the dedication of the Manti Temple. I went to the Gordo at 4:30. I signed 53 Recommend. I received 45 Letters. I wrote 6 public Letters.
    G Q Cannon & my self visited Erastus Snow and found him vary low. We administered to him. I anointed him & Br Cannon was Mouth.
    We had an interview to day with several [……]. We learned there was a large Assembly at the Dedication of the Temple to day. Wilford Woodruff’s journal, Vol. 8, p.500
    Below is a link to a Hymnal for their dedication, dated the 23re. So the Dedication went on for more than two days, according to Woodruff. They came back, after consecrating the stone, again on the 21st. It was during the Temple Dedication that the stone was consecrated The whole four or five day period.
    My comments Helen are accurate and you are simply WRONG.
    So, they dedicated the Temple on the 17th, call the President on the 18th, and have another ceremony on the 21st. It was obviously over many day period. Therefore, you are simply wrong. It was done during the Manti Temple Dedication just as I described and as Fielding Smith confirmed.
    Maybe if you spent a little less time trying to receive revelation from the spirit of Mormonism and a little more in serious study, you’d learn something.

  20. falcon says:

    That one God comment of yours regarding the Mormon belief in the nature of God is not only inaccurate but is meant to mislead people.
    Let’s get at this another way. How many gods are there in Mormonism? Now if you believe that Mormonism is the true religion of the universe, practiced out there beyond the cosmic limits of our solar system, then you’d have to admit that Mormonism teaches that there are millions if not billions of gods. One of your past leaders contended that if you worshiped one of the Mormon gods you worshiped them all.
    So Mormonism, by the very fact that it acknowledges multiple gods, are pantheists. This all goes against the teachings of the Bible and the traditions of the Jews and than Christianity which flows from it. What set the Jews apart from their heathen neighbors is that they were monotheists. When they strayed from this path and went after pagan gods and idols, God would punish them.
    Go and ask an orthodox Jew how many gods he believes there are. I’ll save you the time. He’ll tell you One.
    You’ve been led down a rosy path by a false prophet who started out believing in the God of the Bible and went off the path with his multiple gods, multiple wives, men becoming gods nonsense.

  21. Sandi B. says:

    You are correct Ralph, this site is against the LDS church, because those who have come out of it orstudied it see that it is a false religion. No one here is getting their jollies from putting down the LDS church. For those who come on this site and complain that posters are mean and confrontational, I just have this to say “Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.” Proverbs 27:6 KJV

  22. Mike R says:

    Placing a stone, “seer ” stone, on a holy alter in a ceremony of dedicating a Temple ?
    This is a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ? Is this sacred act part of the ceremony
    of dedicating other Temples ? If not why not ? I’m sure there is ample scriptural
    verification for this in the Standard Works. If the Church leadership still has this
    sacred stone why not allow faithful LDS to see it ? Why is there so much secrecy in
    this religion ? What else is stashed away ? ( financial records , sacred stones, and……..).
    Loyalty to the prophet = loyalty to God . Talk about a recipe for being misled .
    The Mormon people deserve to be free from this spiritual manipulation . Jesus warned,
    Beware —Matt 7:15

  23. falcon says:

    Mike R.
    The reason I bang away at themes that Mormons find tedious is that they need to face facts. The primary fact is that the Mormon religion is not what many of them, skating across the surface, think it is.
    It does not honor Jesus Christ but misuses his holy name for a devious religion that does not recognize Him for who He is, God incarnate. Mormonism turns Jesus into just another god, one of their pantheon of gods of which they hope to be one in the future.
    I don’t care how devout, sincere, humble, moral and faithful a person is, if they don’t honor God for being God they are blaspheming Him. In the case of Mormonism, God is just one of the boys. The god Mormons esteem does not have any, not one, of the attributes of God.
    What good is a god that is nothing more than an enlightened version of one’s self? That’s not God. It’s just a better man.
    Once Mormons know this and then continue to honor what they know is false, their sin is even more serious. It’s bad enough that the ignorant Mormons follow after a false god, but to continue a charade knowing it’s a charade, this is not noble.
    I believe that it’s part of God’s plan that those Mormons who come here thinking they are defending Mormonism, hear the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God is using this site to bring light to those who are in darkness. It’s a matter of if they will respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit or continue down the path of spiritual destruction.

  24. Rick B says:

    I see many LDS dodging questions, If you or they cannot answer them, it would be better to say, I dont know, or I cannot answer it. Otherwise it looks as if they dodge the question.

    Then when people like Helen come here and and tell us we dont know what were talking about, yet never fill us in on what were missing. It’s fine if we ask a question, and you answer it, it’s fine if we ask a question and you say, I dont know. It is not fine if we ask a question and direct it to a person by name, they never say anything, we ask over and over and they avoid it like we never asked.

    Thats not loving. Then for an LDS Member to tell us were a clueless, then we provide evidence, then they never say, oopps. well I guess I was wrong. Or maybe I am missing something. Thats a problem. I’m not asking you to tell Helen to do something she does not want to. I’m saying if your going to tell us we are wrong, then tell other LDS they are wrong when expoused as such, or do as we do, Helen accused Falcon of being wrong, a fellow Christian provided the information and proved Falcon was in fact correct. It’s ok for us to help one another out. Then when you say the questions pop up over and over, it happens, but as time goes on, new lurkers come and need the info, so that is why some things are brought up over and over.

  25. Rick B says:

    Here is something to think about. Pretty much all LDS tell us that we are attcking what they believe and they hate it. They tell us we cannot do that and it is not loving.

    But yet is it not YOUR CHURCH that said stuff like, Show us if we are wrong? If JS is a fraud he should be expoused, and a whole host of other statements like that. If you want I can provide them, but I know you know what I am talking about. So call me crazy Ralph, but it seems you and your fellow LDS either dont know what your Leaders said, or you know and ignore them, and this is a problem because either you guys are ignorant and JS said a man cannot be saved in ignorance. Or you guys are a bunch of hyprocites because you guys know what they said and ignore them.

    If their is a 3rd option I am missing please fill me in, and if you not to busy, please reply to this question and enlighten me. Thanks. Rick

  26. Ralph says:


    I have never complained that the people here were being mean, I have complained that they either don’t listen or decide to ignore answers from the LDS posters (eg see my last post that you have just answered). Two come to mind for example from the last couple of weeks.

    Falcon above said ”One of your past leaders contended that if you worshiped one of the Mormon gods you worshiped them all.” He knows that this writing of Orson Pratt was rejected outright by the church and its leaders at the time, but he still keeps spitting it out.

    The official comment about these writings was ””The Seer [and other writings by Pratt] contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed.”” Deseret News, Aug. 12, 1865, 373. Knowing this, any reference to Orson Pratt’s works in ‘The Seer’ cannot be used in any arguments for or against the LDS church.

  27. Ralph says:

    The other issue is the age of 2 of JS wives. OK, he had 2 wives that were 14 years of age. The question is was that legal in those days to marry a girl of 14? Yes it was. In some of the web pages I have found (and I have given references to them before) the legal marriageable age for girls back then was 12 years old and the legal age of consent was 10 years old. Now these days that is very much frowned upon, but back then it was legal. So the only 2 things about these 2 marriages that anyone here should have a problem with are – 1) was polygamy legal? 2) was JS really commanded of God to enter into polygamous marriages?

    For the first question, I have found websites that tell me that polygamy was legal but was outlawed when it was found out the LDS were practising it. I have found others that say that polygamy was not legal before the LDS started practising it. So I have no answer to that question.

    As to the second question, well that is where we differ in belief.

    But even given the evidence about these 2 points (ie Orson Pratt’s comment and the age of JS youngest wives) people here still use them as arguments showing that they just want to prove the LDS church false regardless of method. I have been on here for 4 or 5 years (I think) and as I said, have answered many questions only to see the same people I have given the answer to blatantly ignore the answer/evidence and keep regurgitating the same old same old. So like Falcon, I am choosing what I want to answer now.

  28. helenlouissmith says:

    Ralph, ditto that, I feel that since I only have 6 replies a day, I will not allow my self to get caught up in old regurgitated talking points.

    Carl Mosser and Paul Owen said it best, both great Evangelical Scholars.

    It appears that we may be losing the battle and not knowing it. A third conclusion we have come to is that currently there are, as far as we are aware, no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibily interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings. In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticisms that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be “the definitive” book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors’ integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.

    This is why I pick and choose carefully Rick B.

    1). Even your own books do not come close too debating contemporary issues in a responsible way, Ralph makes that point with his example of Falcons inability to listen.

    2). Mocking and Criticism that verge on the hilarious, ridiculous, and sensational.

    3). Helen does not allow herself to indulge in repeated talking points that have been discussed and proven as ridiculous and a misrepresented criticism that shows a lack of credibility.

  29. falcon says:

    My comment was accurate concerning what Orson Pratt said. It displays the dysfunction within Mormonism. Here we have a man who is suppose to be hearing from the Mormon god, a leader, and he makes this comment. The LDS church then has to backtrack and do some type of damage control. This is a distinct pattern within Mormonism. Should we go through all of the teachings and revelations by Brigham Young that the LDS church had to back peddle on? Or what about those revelations that the LDS church simply ignores or reverses course.
    We even provide the Mormon posters with the conflicting information as it is published by LDS church sources and that’s not enough.
    Ralph, should all of these doctrines, teachings, prophetic utterances, course reversals also be “cut out and destroyed”? You’d have nothing left of your religion Ralph. That’s the whole point of this thread and Aaron’s article above. And what about all of the other sects of Mormonism? They all claim to be the one true restored church.
    Now Ralph. grindael has in the past provided evidence that totally blows your defense of polygamy out of the water. And yet here we go again! You say you have found websites that say thus and such. Big deal. I can find websites that say all kinds of things but are they true?
    Ralph you’ve got a major problem in that you use the flimsiest evidence and rationalization to support the Mormon religion. This is very typical of Mormons who find themselves wanting desperately to believe something that is based on emotional appeal.
    There is a “spirit” in Mormonism but it isn’t the Holy Spirit. You’re guided by a spirit that influenced a man with a magic rock and is built on a foundation of the occult. Get Out!

  30. Mike R says:


    You alluded to a teaching by Apostle Pratt that was indeed not endorsed by Brigham Young
    who with his counselors issued an official rebuke of Pratt for this teaching and others. Not
    all his works that he published were considered unsound , and not every teaching even in
    the disputed ones(The Seer) were considered as false. The deciding factor was the prophet
    Brigham Young what he did’nt allow as correct doctrine was clearly voiced by him , this was
    the Saints assurance that they would not be led astray by false doctrine entering the camp etc.
    This point needs to be remembered.

    Ralph, here’s the important question relative to this doctrine of God that Mormon apostle
    Pratt taught ( and which Falcon mentioned) : how many LDS received a spiritual witness, an
    inner conviction that what this apostle taught was indeed correct doctrine ? Do you think that
    this “witness” came to these people thru the testimony of the scriptures or did it come as a
    result solely by their emotional submission to the authority of a “modern-day ” apostle ?
    When apostle Pratt was rebuked by Brigham Young did these same Saints then receive a
    spiritual witness that what Young said was the correct view ? Do you see why we hurt for LDS ?
    One last note. You have indeed responded to most of the problems with Mormon doctrine that
    we post here , but you have answered very few . There’s a big difference between the two.

  31. Mike R says:


    That quote by Carl Mosser and Paul Owen was years ago . It’s been used and abused
    Mormon apologists ever since. Both of these scholars have made their views on Mormon
    doctrine clear after this quote was made. Your attempt to defend Mormonism as the true
    gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ falls short. There is to much difference between what Jesus
    taught His apostles with what Mormon apostles claim Jesus revealed thru them since 1830 .
    It does’nt take a scholar to see this difference. Jesus’ warning is still relevant today– –
    Matt.24:11 . May you come to see that you don’t need a man claiming to be the mouthpiece
    of God today when you can have God Himself– Heb 7:25 ; 1Jn.5:20

  32. Kate says:


    “The other issue is the age of 2 of JS wives. OK, he had 2 wives that were 14 years of age. The question is was that legal in those days to marry a girl of 14? Yes it was. In some of the web pages I have found (and I have given references to them before) the legal marriageable age for girls back then was 12 years old and the legal age of consent was 10 years old.”

    I am so blown away by this! In fact sick to my stomach! This is what you are using to defend Joseph’s perversion??? Do you have a daughter? I don’t care if there wasn’t a law in the 1800’s flat out stating marriage and sexual relations with a 14 year old is illegal! It was morally wrong! Do you know what a 10 or 12 year old little girls looks like Ralph? How mature are these girls? Even most 14 year old girls aren’t fully developed physically, emotionally, or mentally! I don’t care how many men since Adam took these little girls as wives, I don’t care how many of them felt it was their “right” it was and is MORALLY WRONG! Joseph Smith was not a MORAL man!

  33. Rick B says:

    You and the other LDS really are clueless, As I have said, Your propget JS said, A man cannot be saved in ignorance. Yet you guys are very ignorant of your own church’s teachings.

    You can claim Orsen and the Seer was debunked, yet like all other teachings, it boils down to what you want to be true. As I told Helen many times, she claims the Church and the prophet can hear from God, LDS pride themselves on this fact, yet NEVER, NEVER, NEVER has any prophet gone before the People during a GC and said, hello everyone, I went to the Lord in prayer and recived information that will for once and for all clear all the confusion up over past prophets and their teachings such as, Blood Atonment, Adam God, Polgagmy Etc.

    You guys say Blood atonmenet is false and no longer practiced, yet How many believed it when it wa staught and died as a result? It cannot both be true and then later false.

    WoW was only a sugestion but now is doctrine. So Many people drank coffee and Tea and they were saved, but know they can lose their salvation over it, at least according to J.F.S.

    by TAUGHT ADAM WAS GOD and all must hear it and our salvation hangs upon it. How many believed that when it was first taught? Now it is called a false doctrine, are they damned for believeing false doctrien? Adam God was called Doctrine, Yet know it is not, and people claim it was written down wrong, yet King Follet was written correct? That is 11 pages verses two pages, Two pages were written wrong, but not 11.

    Helen admited on this blog she believes in Adam God Doctrine. So according to the masses of LDS, she believe in false

  34. Rick B says:

    Doctrine. You guys simply cannot get it straight, everything changes all the time, and yet it does not bother you guys. I could go on, but you guys simply wont care or find a way to deny everything. Really sad.

    One last thing, Many of the doctrines you guys claim to be false, are taught by the RLDS, and THE FLDS. Yet you dont allow them to be called LDS, You guys claim to have the true Church, yet so do the RLDS and the FLDS, What type of evidence do you look at to decide they are wrong and you are right? Or do you simply reley on prayer?

  35. reggiewoodsyall says:

    Rick B- I’d like to have lunch with you. I believe I was being honest with you in saying that I have no desire to waste my limited posts here on people who I sense want to argue. I’m not here to argue. That’s all. So far, I’ve been called dishonest, haughty, someone who doesn’t love god, someone who doesn’t love Christ, someone who lacks knowledge, etc. Hmmm… Interesting. I’ll keep track of other descriptives as well. You guys are a lot of fun.

    Kate, you think the first artie of faith is a bad representation of hat we believe about God? Haha. Okay. We can go into more detailed description if that would make you feel better. Just because you feel that you were clueless doesn’t mean that everyone else is. Add clueless to the list of descriptives above for me. Haha.

    Mike R- sorry I mistook you for Ralph. Yes, the LDS church is the only church that has the fullness of the gospel. All false doctrines that are taught, whether at other churches or from any forum, are an abomination. My belief, and I believe that aligns with the churches stance.

    Brian- hey buddy! To answer your question, I have faith in Christ to save me, and anyone else who has faith in him and submits to his will. According to your definition of being perfect, I would be considered perfect as well, and unfortunately I just don’t agree with your description. I see this leading towards the faith + works vs. faith + nothing discussion. We can go there if you’d like. Just let me know.

    Sandi B- thanks for the information!

    Falcon- you already know

  36. reggiewoodsyall says:

    Cont. What I believe. Good synopsis. I think it’s clear that we Only worship one god. It’s also clear that we believe we can become like our father in heaven, hence like our god. That doesn’t mean we worship multiple gods. Haha.

  37. Kate says:


    I was just clarifying the actual question that was asked of you. It looked as if you hadn’t understood falcon’s question. I’m wondering, are you here to discuss or are you here to complain and play games. Contrary to what you may think, we Christians take this seriously. So please state up front what your motives are. I’m not interested in playing silly games with you. So far you haven’t seriously discussed or contributed to the dialogue.

  38. falcon says:

    We’ve been down this road a few times before with Ralph. I know for one I get totally indignant at Ralph’s attempts to show that marriage was legal and thus acceptable for fourteen year old girls in the nineteenth century. So I’m just curious how many thirty-something males in the 19th century married two fourteen year old girls while being married to another women? My guess that’s a pretty narrow demographic with an N of 1.
    But to get to the nub of it and the subject of our topic here, you must understand that I once asked Ralph if he would kill or steal if ordered to by the prophet. He gave me an unqualified “yes”. So we are dealing with a mentality with Mormons in which they will defend anything in the religion no matter how thin and unsupported the explanation is; even if it justifies pedophilia, adultery and fornication.
    So for Mormons, such as you (were), what do you do when you can’t accept these pathetic and untrue explanations? Can a Mormon go on believing in something that they come to know if false? What happens when it just doesn’t work any more?
    I’d say LEAVE……!

  39. Rick B says:

    Not only do I agree with Kate, that your playing games, but since I doubt you know what your leaders have said in the past, let me fill you in. You claim we are being mean, yet it was your prophet that said what I believe is an abomination, since he said that, why is it wrong for me to defend what I believe against His attacks?

    If were being mean, then I guess you missed this. 1 Nephi 14:10, Your “Holy book” Claims I am of the church of the Devil and the WHORE OF ALL THE EARTH, But yet I am not allowed according to you guys to speak out against that and a BIG WOW, goes out for the WHORE saying.

    B Young: “with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world” (journal of discourses 8:199).

    3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes MR Taylor) “brother taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth” (j.o.d 6:176).

    Heber c. Kimball “christians-those poor, miserable priests brother brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (j.o.d 5:89).

    Yet you guys will say, that was ok for them to say that, or it was simply taken out of context.

    Reggie, I also asked Ralph about this and am waiting for a reply. Why is it your leaders have said

    Orson Pratt,The Seer pg 15.
    we ask from you the same generosity–protect us in the exercise of our religious rights–CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever

  40. Rick B says:


    and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds

    In the LDS Scripture we read again,

    D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public.
    D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church’s public or private to discuss this stuff.
    D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any.


    Read pg 188 of
    Doctrines of Salvation vol 1

    Joseph F Smith. “CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false”.

    Reggie, All these sayings by your leaders show either you guys are Ignorant and JS said a man cannot be saved in ignorance, or you guys know about these and refuse to believe them and allow us to do what they said, this means you guys are hyprocites. If theior is a 3rd option, I am open to hearing it.

    Lastly Reggie, You ever want to have lunch, I am open, I do private Chef events, and am a chef. I have a food blog if your interested.

    I am so busy I dont keep up with it as much as I should, but I check it daily.

  41. grindael says:


    What you say about the Seer:

    Knowing this, any reference to Orson Pratt’s works in ‘The Seer’ cannot be used in any arguments for or against the LDS church.

    Is not true. Young was very specific about what doctrines he objected to. I advise reading the whole First Presidency Statement on this, found here: and here:

    Why do they say, ‘parts of works’, if they are condemning ALL of them? They weren’t. You didn’t quote ALL of their statement either, it reads:

    The last half of the tract entitled ‘The Holy Spirit,’ contains excellent and conclusive arguments, and is all that could be wished; so also with many of his writings. But the Seer The Great First Cafe, [Cause] the article in the Millennial Star of October 15th, and November 1, 1850, on the Holy Spirit, and the first half of the tract, also on the Holy Spirit, contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed; with proper care this can be done without much, if any, injury to the volumes.

    In fact Young condemns teachings by Orson Pratt, currently ACCEPTED by the Church TODAY! (Pratt taught that God was not progressing in knowledge, and Young said he was).

    They were adamant, about CORRECTING doctrine that were in error, not leaving them to be guessed at:

    “Errors in history and in doctrine, if left uncorrected by us who are conversant with the events, and who are in a position to judge of the truth or falsity of the doctrines, would go

  42. grindael says:

    to our children as though we had sanctioned and endorsed them.”

    All of the objectionable material in the Seer was addressed, that is why they said,

    “with proper care this can be done without much, if any, injury to the volumes.”

    Which you left out of your quote. In fact, ALL of the Sermons in the JOD were reviewed and approved by Brigham Young.

    “After he recorded the speeches, Watt transcribed them word for word, spending many hours at his desk. NEXT HE READ THE SERMONS TO THOSE WHO GAVE THEM, AND THEY CORRECTED THEM. Sometimes Thomas Bullock read Watt’s transcribed sermons, and Watt corrected them again. Albert Carrington copy-edited them, and then Watt sent the final collection of sermons by post to Liverpool for publication. The president of the British Mission also wrote a short preface. The sermons FIRST came out in pamphlet, serial form and were sold to church members both in Britain and Utah by subscription. The publication of the Journal of Discourses meant that the sermons of the Mormon leaders were some of the first religious works to be available for potential world consumption. It helped both the missionary effort and membership.” (The Mormon Passage of George D. Watt, by Ronald Watt, 135-136, 2009)

    It is Mormon myth that the JOD were sent out ‘uncorrected’ or were merely speculation. They were carefully prepared, in advance, reviewed many times, and published with the full cooperation of the First Presidency of the Church. _johnny

  43. grindael says:

    Here is a good link about marriages of young women in the 19th century:

    The focus shouldn’t be about marriage age, it should be about the law on the books about adultery, and bigamy, which Smith broke, and lied about publicly and privately, and went against his own binding scripture to break. If God (and not man) is actually ‘in charge’ of Mormonism, then why would he have anyone (even a so-called prophet) break the laws of the land and the Church, when he specifically commanded them in other places NOT TO? And these laws voted upon as binding on the entire Church?

    This is an insurmountable dilemma. The age of the girls, is trying to be justified by other’s bad behaviour, (the parents who were required to give consent – another sticking point with some of Smith’s marriages – did that happen in every case? (again comparing a Church said to be run by God with the worldly ‘standards’ of the day) the LOW standards at that… same as the modern justification for Mormon racism. Where in the world does God ever command men to take the wives of other men and marry them, while they are still married? Or send them off on missions to do so? Or arrange to have them marry another man, who in no way was a real husband, to divert attention away from himself? NOWHERE. Smith was a false prophet, and there is no reasonable justification for his shenanigans with women. _johnny

  44. Kate says:

    Great comments grindael! You are right, just because it wasn’t illegal to marry a young girl ( I have to wonder if they had never run into the problem before, so there was no need to have it on the books) doesn’t excuse Joseph Smith from the ILLEGAL practices of adultery, and bigamy. I wonder why it’s OK with Mormons that he had broken the law concerning this, but shout to the world that it wasn’t illegal to marry a child. A little twisted if you ask me.


    “I once asked Ralph if he would kill or steal if ordered to by the prophet. He gave me an unqualified “yes”.

    And then Mormons wonder why the people of the United States do not want a Mormon for President. I’ve stated before that people wonder if when it comes right down to it, would a Mormon President do what was best for our country or do the will of their prophet if the prophet asked him to do something different. From what I’ve seen, most Mormons are like Ralph. That is a very scary thing. The LDS are very big on the 10 commandments. Isn’t “Thou shalt not kill” and “Thou shalt not steal” commandments of God?” Who should the Mormon really follow? God or prophet?

  45. Ralph says:


    Wow, you accepted the explanation from grindael but not me. I feel hurt 🙂 . Not to worry.

    You asked if I had daughters; I have 3 daughters and I grew up with 5 sisters. My oldest girl is almost 17 and the youngest is 11. Would I have a problem with them getting married at 14 – these days and ages yes I would because that is how I have grown up. Back then, I don’t know because life and law was different. In history and English at high school I was taught that during the medieval times most girls were married just after their first period and had babies from then on until they either died in child birth or got to a point where they could not have children. This was because infant mortality was high, so families back then had 12 or more children on record but only 2 or 3 survive. The saying ‘old maid’ meant that the girl was 16 years old or older and unmarried and she was considered non-marriageable material after that – 16 years old. As I said, I learned this at high school so I don’t have any handy references.

    But if you feel so strongly about it, what would you say to someone making a 14 year old girl pregnant and having her marry a man that was at least 10 years her senior? Read the Gospels because that is what most Bible historians (including Christian ones) agree about Mary and Joseph. They believe that Mary was between 12 and 15 and Joseph was a widower and over 25.

    As I said, different life style and laws and traditions/customs. To us it’s terrible, to them it was life.

  46. falcon says:

    Ralph writes:

    “But if you feel so strongly about it, what would you say to someone making a 14 year old girl pregnant and having her marry a man that was at least 10 years her senior? Read the Gospels because that is what most Bible historians (including Christian ones) agree about Mary and Joseph. They believe that Mary was between 12 and 15 and Joseph was a widower and over 25.”

    And your point is what Ralph? Are you saying that the situation with Mary is analogous to Joseph Smith using his position as a religious leader to seduce two fourteen year old girls. I certainly hope not Ralph but I know Mormons will go to any length to rationalize or legitimize Joseph Smith’s reckless and I would say deviant behavior.
    Ralph doesn’t it trouble you at all that you have to reach such a contemptibly low level to justify Joseph Smith’s sinful seduction of these two kids. What do you call a thirty-something year old man who’s trolling about for sex partners regardless of their marital status or age and covers it by saying it’s marriage? If it had been found out at that time, Smith would have ended up in jail just like Warren Jeffs. There isn’t ten cents worth of difference between Smith and Jeffs. They believe the same doctrine.
    You know the truth about Mormonism Ralph and you continue in your sin of rejecting God. There’s a spirit with its hooks in your brain Ralph. You need to ask God to deliver you from this spirit. That’s the only hope I can see for you.

  47. Ralph says:


    I have never said that you should not be attacking my religion. I know that some people do say that, but that happens in all walks of life. I know Traditional Christians and Muslims (especially the latter) that make the same claim. There are non-religions groups that are anti-each other (especially in science) and the members of each faction ask the same question. You ask a similar question about the Bible – ‘why do we attack the pillar of your faith?’ is basically what you’re asking when you ask why do we attack the Bible. So that’s life, put up with the whingers, or as we say here – suck it up princess.

    You ask why don’t we admit we were wrong? I’ve done it a number of times on this blog. But why don’t you? I see you admit it when a ‘fellow Christian’ shows you wrong, but when an LDS does, you either still try and prove you’re right anyway or ignore the evidence. For example on the “Mormon Leaders worthy of hire” you said that you had read the LDS hymnal and it was all JS nothing about Jesus. I showed you 5 songs (although there are many more) that were about Jesus no mention of JS anywhere in them and no way they could possibly be interpreted to mean JS. No retraction of your statement. What, oops, you didn’t see it? Then why is there a post a day after my comment in which you were answering Helen? Oh well, it happens doesn’t it. We all see what we want to. All I can give for advice for all including myself is – Matt 7:3-5

  48. Ralph says:

    As far as your last question about the church leaders saying to show us where we are wrong, fine by me. But the third option is that we can be saved in innocence.

    A good example of this is Stat Trek Next Generation, Season 1 Episode 8 ‘Justice’. The crew spent a number of days/weeks learning all the laws of this one planet, but no one told them (ie they forgot) that stepping over the white fences was a crime and that the only punishment for crimes regardless was death. So Wesley falls over a fence while playing ball which he did not know was a crime. He was innocent, not ignorant of the law.

    So some of these church members you are talking about are busy reading what is important – the scriptures and are innocent in not knowing some of these remarks you are talking about. It does not mean that they are ignorant or hypocritical.

    This I believe is my final comment for the day. Now can you see why I don’t answer some questions (even to say “I don’t know”) when either I don’t know the answer or I have repeated the answer many times in the past and don’t want to waste my breath anymore.


    Kate said that the thought of ANYONE marrying or having sex with a 14 year old was despicable to her regardless of time/law/etc. So that’s why I asked that question for her opinion, not yours.

  49. falcon says:

    I don’t care if you ask for my opinion or not. If you’re on this forum what you write is fair game for comment by anyone. Neither I nor anyone else needs your permission to comment on what you write. The problem Ralph is that you don’t like being challenged and would rather live in your little Mormon cocoon. This isn’t a Fast and Testimony meeting down at the ward Ralph. You’re not going to get any high fives and get a bunch of old ladies crying about what you express here.
    You need to face the hard reality Ralph that you’re stuck in a a form of religion that cannot bring you eternal life.
    I repeat, you need to get delivered from that spirit that has you in bondage and keeps you from seeing the spiritual reality of who Jesus is and what He did on the cross. You know very well the deceitful nature of Mormonism but its got you by the throat. I understand the social and familial pressure you’re under but that’s no excuse. Christ has been calling you but you reject Him for another Christ.

  50. Rick B says:

    Ralph said

    You ask a similar question about the Bible – ‘why do we attack the pillar of your faith?’ is basically what you’re asking when you ask why do we attack the Bible.

    You admit you attack the Bible, but here is the problem, You cannot claim to believe the Bible and follow God, then attack His Word. Then when I quoted what your leaders said, and boiled it down to 2 choices and said if their is a 3rd please list it. You said Innocence is the 3rd choice, I’m afraid Not Ralph, You know why I say that? Because I quoted from the D and C, and while you or other LDS may not have read the Seer or any other books, You have read the D and C, so that makes you accountable. Now since I know you read the D and C this either makes you a liar since you said in a round about way, the way of Innocence you were not aware of these teachings, or your Ignorant and a hypocrite. Unless you never read the D and C. But now all of you lds who have read those quotes are now accountable and can no longer say, we cannot tell you, you are wrong.

    Then you and all LDS really need to read the Book of Jude, But you can start with this.

    Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into

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