A Word About Coffee

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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52 Responses to A Word About Coffee

  1. helenlouissmith says:

    Humorous, funny, clever, and poetic.

  2. Mike R says:

    Sharon, that was great. Makes you wonder how a prophet claiming to restore the gospel
    of Jesus Christ could teach that a cup of coffee/tea will keep you out of God’s Home , and
    God’s presence . Sounds like “another gospel ” to me . I’ll have to disagree with the video’s
    statement of ” nothing stimulates you like coffee” , because looking at my wife does that
    much better ! But then our marriage , ( as well as baptism) is viewed like coffee as illegal
    and unauthorized behavior in God’s sight according to the leaders of ” the restored Church “.
    Oh well, I’ll trust what Jesus directed His authentic apostles to teach —2Jn1:9

  3. Rick B says:

    Because this topic is about Coffe, how about some more coffee humor? Here are the 4 types of coffee drinkers according to my brother.

    When it all boils down, there are really only four types of coffee drinkers: the strong-and-black, the cream-only, the sugar-only, and the cream-and-sugar type.

    Let’s start with the first one: strong-and-black. This is a type of person who is confident and bold; sensitive, yet manly. He projects an image that says “I drink coffee that’s so good I don’t need to add any of your “flavor enhancing” preservatives. To do so would only announce to everyone that either I’m a wimp who can’t handle real coffee, or that I’m drinking really bad coffee that needs to be doctored up in order to be drinkable. This type of person is well-respected by others.

    Then there’s the cream-only type. This is a person who’s really not sure of himself. He doesn’t want to look like a wimp in front of his friends by adding sugar as well, but he’s not confident enough to take the bold approach and go the strong-and-black route, so he compromises and takes a middle-of-the-road stance, trying to maintain a shallow image of respectability with other coffee drinkers.

    The sugar-only type of coffee drinker has no credibility at all, in my opinion. They’re mentally unstable. Nobody in his right mind would drink coffee like that, so insanity is the obvious explanation. If you do a background check on a person who’s given to the sugar-only way of drinking coffee, you’ll find that most of them have been committed to a mental institution at least once in the recent past.

    Lastly, we have the cream-and-sugar type. This is the worst kind of all. These people have delicate tastebuds that can’t be offended at all by the slightest hint of flavor.


  4. Rick B says:

    Lastly, we have the cream-and-sugar type. This is the worst kind of all. These people have delicate tastebuds that can’t be offended at all by the slightest hint of flavor. This type of person is usually over-sensitive and can’t deal with raw truth. Everything must be sugar-coated and smoothed over to be acceptable to him. He tends to be immature and regressive in personality.

    There you have it- the four basic types of coffee drinkers. Now if you’ll excuse me, I believe my herbal tea is done brewing.

    I am the Black type only, and I suspect their are lots of people here who fall under the Cream and sugar type.

  5. falcon says:

    My wife drinks coffee. She drinks wine to. She doesn’t drink them at the same time however it might be interesting to see the effect. Perhaps I’ll have to compose a song about this on my guitar but I don’t know if I could be as clever as the Home Companion people in the video.
    I have to depend on my wife at times when I’m struggling over a moral gray area. She has a lot more freedom in Christ than I do. I went to Catholic school and I just can’t get the moral training out of my system. I empathize with Martin Luther whose confessor told him, “Why don’t you actually go out and commit a sin so you’ll have something real to confess.” I envy people who don’t fuss over every little detail of a moral issue.
    My wife and sister-in-law say that my brother and I are the only people they know who add up a check in the restaurant to make sure we’ve been charged enough……..instead of too much!
    I agonize over whether or not I should eat in a restaurant in a casino. Other Christians can go in, gamble a little, have lunch and never think a thing of it.
    Maybe I should go and get a cup of coffee and think about it!

  6. grindael says:

    The Word of Wisdom is a FORCED REGULATION, and is not of the New Covenant:

    “The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those REGULATIONS apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so COMPELLING that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. IF YOU DO NOT, YOU CANNOT GO TO THE HOUSE OF THE LORD until you are fully worthy.” (The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises, Ensign, May 1996).

    “2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.” ~ The Apostle Paul

    If God has accepted us, who are Mormon Authorities to condemn us? Even Paul would not do so. _johnny

  7. Mike R says:

    One of the simple pleasures I enjoy in life is getting up early on cold fall and winter
    mornings and making campfire coffee out side in my yard . I get to see the day start
    as the sun rises over the hills to the east. It’s interesting to realize that Joseph Smith
    and a great many Mormon leaders would have enjoyed this also. I could have
    served Joseph some tea instead I guess, but I would hope he would refrain from his
    smoking as smoke just kind of hangs still in cold air . We could talk of how he felt that
    God was only a man , and some other important topics I’m sure, and I would not forget to
    open my Bible and it’s second witness, the Book of Mormon, and have him re-assure me
    that we we’re violating scriptural testimony concerning our behavior . After all , we need
    to be worthy before God to eventually receive eternal life and that was possible through
    obedience to the scriptures which were interpreted by a living prophet , and this prophet was
    privileged to be directed by the Savior Himself in relaying His gospel . So the scriptures and
    the only authorized prophet by God to interpret them for all believers ; I feel assured .

  8. reggiewoodsyall says:

    I can’t tell if there is a discussion point here or if this thread is just for fun. Pretty clever video.

    I’ve actually always been interested about God’s laws surrounding the things we eat and drink. The Old Testament is full of stuff regarding this. As a good standing Mormon now, and previously when I was considered Baptist, I have always wondered why people partake of substances that they become addicted to. Coffee caused my mother to have great headaches when she tried to stop drinking it. I have friends who were hit by a drunk driver. I personally have asthma that the doctors have accredited to my father’s smoking habits. If our bodies are gifts from God and temples, does it not logically make sense that God gives us laws to protect and care for those gifts/temples?

  9. Mike R says:

    You don’t seem to understand about what’s being communicated here. Very few people
    would argue that coffee, tobacco are good for your health, that’s not the point. The whole
    question is , does partaking of these things bar you from eternal life ? Did you even bother
    to read Johnny’s post ? Are you in Jesus’ church, the new covenant ? If you believe you are
    then look into the New Testament ( and Book of Mormon if you wish also ) and see what Jesus’
    original apostles taught on this , then compare this with any so-called “modern day ” apostles
    teachings . The last thing we need is following the spiritual counsel of false prophets and apostles,
    right ? Since Jesus warned of the coming of religious men claiming to be authorized to speak
    for God [ Matt.24:11 ] , then it behooves us to test these men — 1 Jn.4:1 .
    Now Reggie, do be obedient to the Lord by proceeding with this testing, you have to
    understand a truth that Mormons don’t seem to grasp fully , which is this : not all false prophets
    live immoral lifestyles . False prophets need for you to accept their claimed authority then the
    rest is downhill to accepting their doctrines, doctrines that are said to be from God , but are only
    the “precepts of men ” [ 2Nephi 28 ] . Go now to your New Testament / Covenant and test your

  10. Sandi B. says:

    Even joining the Mormon chruch at the young age of 17, I missed my coffee and beleive me Postum just doesn’t do it as a coffee replacement. One of the first things I started doubting of the Mormon chruch is why they had taken something that had been called a Word of Wisdom and turned it into a commandment. It was at that point, not knowing anything about the real nature of God or the Bible that my God given discernment told me something wasn’t right. I enjoy my Starbucks Venti Decaf Latted, x-tra hot every moring. Mmmmmmmmmm, like the name of this site, “forbidden but good!” (Of course, now that I am free in Christ, it is no longer forbidden to me. Very cute video, Sharon.

  11. Rick B says:

    Here is the problem that Mormons clearly miss with the WoW.
    It started out as a good thing to do, then went from being a good thing to do to Now this is a “Law and Command” From God that will Bar us from Heaven.

    Then the WoW says “Hot Drinks” Yet LDS define hot drinks as Coffee and Tea. The WoW says Hot drinks not coffee and tea. Then LDS Fight to the death so to speak and say any Hot liquid like Hot Chocolate, Hot broth, Hot Milk does not fall under Hot Drinks. Those are Drinks, and they are hot.

    Then LDS clearly ignore the rest of the WoW and find ways to justify ignoring it, Like wasking beasts with Tobbaco, or eating Meat spareinly in winter, Etc.

    I find it really sad that even an LDS member feels, us Non-LDS notice the hypocrisy of LDS members not obeying the WoW.

    The hypocrisy of the membership was even admitted by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt who once stated, “I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them. Journal of Discourses 17:104

    President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

    “To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept…Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments.” (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

    Mormons do not keep the entire WoW, So they are not keeping all of the commandments as J.F.S

    Jesus Drank wine, and before you or anyone say, it did not contain any alcohol, Jesus was accused of being a drunkerd. How can youy be accused of that by drinking non-alcoholic wine?

  12. Mike R says:

    Sandi B , Yee Haw ! Considering the behavior of the Mormon leadership in the recent
    past ( 1980’s) when even businesses related to the Church ran ads for cigarettes , and alcohol ,
    I would’nt be surprised if they owned stock in StarBucks! Mormon leader George A.
    Smith stated business was good in the Zion’s Cooperative Mercantile Institution , they were
    selling lots of tea, coffee, and tobacco ,( this was after Brigham Young asked the Church to start
    to take the Word of Wisdom more seriously.) The Mormon people have been tossed to fro
    by their leaders on this whole issue. Mormon prophets advertise the exclusive ability to
    interpret ” mind and will of God ” for their followers , yet they have been all over the map on
    what exactly is required to enter the “gate of heaven” ( Temple) and make it to God’s presence .

  13. Kate says:

    Mormons seem to have a problem with Jesus fulfilling the Old Testament. Isn’t that why we have a New Testament? The laws given in the OT were for the Jews. We are not Jews. There were so many laws in the OT days. Doesn’t the NT say that if you are going to live by the law then you have to keep the whole law, if you break one law, you have broken them all? James 2:10

    The whole word of wisdom is just a control thing. Coffee and tea are actually healthy for you. I agree that tobacco is harmful and alcohol can be harmful, but an occasional glass of red wine or beer is actually good for you. What about the part of the word of wisdom that says we are to eat meat only in times of famine. Why isn’t that part followed or asked about in temple interviews?
    Joseph Smith had a bar in his home. He and the others drank a bottle of wine before they were killed at Carthage. What does Jesus say about this stuff? Matthew 15:11

    One thing I have learned since coming out of Mormonism is that as a Mormon I was living more in the OT than the New. The Galations tried to return to the Old Covenant while trying to mix in some of the New, this destroys the very Grace by which we are Saved.

  14. canuck54 says:

    For the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rom. 14:17

  15. falcon says:

    The WoW is just another way to control people. It’s also a way for people to feel all self-righteous and better than those who don’t practice dietary laws.
    Aren’t Mormons actively involved in the gambling industry in Las Vegas?
    I remember all of the rules from my Catholic days. The church has dumped most of them. Lent was a real drag for people with all of the fasting and other rules.
    No meat on Friday, any Friday. If you went out after a game you’d have to wait until after midnight to order a pizza with meat on it; or to order a hamburger. Couldn’t eat it at 11:59. If you happened to forget and were eating a hot dog and you remembered half way through eating it you were required to throw it away.
    What nonsense!

  16. Kate says:

    “To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept…Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments.” (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

    There’s a lot of Sabbath breaking going on here in Utah. Where is the stoning? Doesn’t the OT say that the punishment of Sabbath breaking was death by stoning? (Numbers 15:32-36; Exodus 31:14; 35:2

  17. falcon says:

    Are you suggesting that Utah Mormons get stoned?
    That would certainly break the WoW I’d think.
    Maybe California Mormons are getting stoned.

  18. Sandi B. says:

    LOL, Falcon, you are always good for a guffaw!

  19. reggiewoodsyall says:

    Mike R – Sorry, my post wasn’t descriptive enough as usual. What I am about to say is going to be blasphemous to many here… but here goes. Mormon’s believe that you actually have to obey commandements in order to be exalted (salvation, eternal life, etc.). I know most of you won’t agree with that, but that’s how it is.

    So why did I say that and how does that relate to my previous post. God has given us many gifts, agency is one of them, our bodies one, our powers to pro-create one, along with many others. Of those gifts, we believe that God would have us respect and care for those gifts here on earth, and that if we don’t, we are in sin. Sin seperates us from God. The Atonement, repentance, faith, and obedience bring us back to God.

    So following that logic, the WoW (or drinking coffee in particular) is a specific law that teaches us respect for one of the greatest gifts God has given us. And if we treat that gift in a way that is disrespectful or innappropriate, yes, it would barr you from entering the pearly whites… of course, pending eventual repentance and a change of heart. I don’t think you are presuming that a drink of coffee shuns you from the kingdom any different than a sin of theivery or dishonesty. This is just one of the many things that can prevent us from entering the kingdom.

    I’m sure I will hear about Faith and how you already live a perfect life and everything. I disagree, but i understand. Faith vs. Faith+works conversation. I’m sure you’ve had it previously, sure it will be posted again.

  20. Rick B says:

    I love how when it comes to the WoW you guys avoid so much of it, like eating meat only in winter or famine, and How it was once just a good idea and now it is a law, things like that.

    Then Reggie said

    I don’t think you are presuming that a drink of coffee shuns you from the kingdom any different than a sin of theivery or dishonesty.

    We Reggie, according to your Prophet we are saying just that and NOT PRESUMING anything.
    Your Prophet said,

    LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

    “SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. ‘Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn’t amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.’ …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)

    Then you ignore all of what the Bible says, Jesus Drank Wine, Paul said not to judge one another according to what we eat or drink, and things like that.

  21. Mike R says:

    Reggie, my friend you still don’t understand what the whole point is here.
    Eating and drinking things that are not healthy is something we should all be
    very concerned with, from eating to much sugar to consuming to many trans
    fats. God does expect us to eat healthy . Just recently there was a report in the
    news about how receiving to many x-rays is not healthy , the list can gone on
    for a mile but as christians in the New Covenant we belief what Jesus taught and
    what He directed His apostles to teach others. Jesus warned all of us that false
    religious teachers would come and mislead many, and one way they do this is by
    INTRODUCING doctrines that come from their own reasoning , their own desire , not
    from the Holy Ghost speaking to them — see 2 Pt.2:1 ; Jer. 23:16,21 . When prophets
    do this and call it the gospel it actually becomes another gospel [ Gal.1:8 ]. This is
    exactly what Mormon prophets are guilty of. The teachings of Jesus do not say that
    coffee / tea drinking is a law or part of His gospel , but Mormon prophets have said this,
    see the difference ? You’re confusing two separate things here with this issue. Take
    time to ponder those scriptures I cited above. What Mormon leaders have done with
    this issue is a text book example of teaching the ” precepts of men ” [ 2 Nephi 28], yet
    calling it God’s law . By teaching that drinking tea can bar a person from God’s house ,
    and then His presence , is truely not Jesus’ gospel.

  22. Kate says:

    Just a few scriptures in the New Testament about the law:
    Luke 16:16
    Romans 6:14
    Romans 7:4, 6
    Romans 10:4
    Galatians 3:13
    Galatians 3:24-25
    Galatians 5:18
    Ephesians 2:15
    Colossians 2:14
    Christ fulfilled the Old Testament laws. I don’t know why that is so hard for some to grasp.

  23. falcon says:

    What Reggie is describing is Mormonism, right?
    It has nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible for that matter.
    In order to become a god, as Mormons believe, a certain course must be followed. What we know is that no coffee drinkers can become gods. Why? Who knows? It’s just the way it is. Any Mormon who drinks coffee is not god material.
    I appreciate your listing of Bible verses but you and I know it won’t make one lick of difference to a Mormon because what the Bible reveals is not all that important in Mormonism. What is important to Mormons is what Mormon prophets say. If they say you can’t be a coffee drinker and be a god that’s it; until they change their minds of course.
    As Christians we follow the Bible. That’s it. I believe in prophets, those who exercise the gift of the Holy Spirit (prophesy). But what they say must line-up with God’s Word. There’s nothing in the NT about drinking coffee. In fact Paul goes to great length to talk about walking in the Spirit and drinking coffee isn’t any where on the radar screen.
    I’ll bet you’re forever grateful that you are now in Christ Jesus. What the law couldn’t do for you Christ did.

  24. helenlouissmith says:

    Admonition of the Prophet Joseph Smith: “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

    I don’t know about the rest of Mormonism, but as for me, I don’t worry about the details of the WW since I’m sure that the principle it self contains everything one needs to do to stay healthy, active, and spiritually in tune.

    I drink beverages that have caffeine in them, I eat meat at least three/four times a week, I cook with wine and some of my friends smoke and I’m sure that I receive plenty of second hand smoke.
    Now for me to be 100% I might as well keep my self locked away in a sterile enviroment instead of going out and allowing something to contaminate my body. Gee, I even have been to Veagas and pulled a few slot handles.

    2 Corinthians 3:6-8 “who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

  25. 4fivesolas says:

    Thank you for being so forth right and honest about the importance of works/law in Mormonism. I first want to say that you are correct, the law is necessary for salvation. Without it no one will be saved. I must explain though – the law shows us how desperately sinful we are, that we cannot save ourselves. I believe that is why people “invent” law they can keep – sure I can keep from drinking coffee – but can I really keep my heart from being covetous? In order to keep the law, people change the law to things they can actually do. I cannot keep my heart from lust, but I can keep from movies. I cannot keep my heart from hating my brother, but I can keep from actually murdering him. We cannot actually keep the law, so we invent an easier law. Not drinking coffee sounds pretty easy. We alter God’s law and make laws of man’s commandments.
    So the law reveals our sin – we have not always honored our parents, we have not always honored our marriages but have allowed for lust, we have not feared, loved, and honored God above all things. It reveals our need for a Savior, who redeems us by fulfilling the law for us and taking the punishment for our sins – His righteousness is accounted to us, our sin is accounted to Him. All the Scriptures that Kate pointed out reveal our position in the law, Jesus has perfectly fulfilled the law (which is God’s standard – perfection, without one fault), fulfilling the law in a way we never could. Without Jesus, the law is a curse to us, it condemns us.

  26. Rick B says:

    To add to what 4/5 said, The Bible tells us, if we break or have broken ONE LAW, WE ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THEM ALL. So Like it or not, if you steal a cookie from the cookie jar, it’s as if you murdered someone since your guilty of breaking all the laws. Then since you have broken all the laws and are a law breaker, No amount of good works will ever clear you of being a law breaker. The only thing that can clear you is the shed blood of Christ. And that is it, the blood of Christ is NOT COMBINED with any works we can do. Mormons and many people seem to think it is, Jesus and…

    It is not Jesus and…

    It is Jesus. Period.

  27. falcon says:

    Good job 4/5 and rick.
    Paul explains very clearly what the purpose of the law is. Reading the Book of Romans and the Book of Galatians gives us all the information we need to see our hopeless condition and why it’s necessary for us to have a Savior. Simply put, we can’t save ourselves. Actually we can’t even maintain ourselves without the grace of God and the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit.
    I commend people for wanting to live moral lives. It’s the way to go. It’s called walking in the Spirit so we don’t carry out the deeds of the flesh. But as has been correctly pointed out, our behavior has nothing to do with getting ourselves good enough to be acceptable to God.
    We are to present our bodies as living sacrifices to God. That’s what being born again is all about. I love the verses where Paul says, “Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be. How should we who have died to sin, continue in it?” That’s from memory but the idea is there.
    Paul also talks about his frustration in wanting to do what’s right but often ending up doing what’s wrong. He gets so frustrated that he laments, “Who will free me from this body of death.”
    I also like what John says about the blood of Christ continually cleansing us from all unrighteousness.
    Having been raised Catholic, it’s still a struggle for me to get myself out from under the tyranny of the law and live by God’s grace. What I mean by that is the law is always condemning us. The law wags it’s finger at us and shames us. There’s no joy in it.
    God’s grace frees us from the joy zapping effects of living under the law.

  28. Mike R says:

    Reggie, you said that the prohibition of drinking coffee was a “law” that God revealed,
    a commandment needed to be obeyed to receive eternal life . Reggie , the problem here
    is’nt that I believe that God has’nt issued commandments , rather the whole point here is
    have Mormon prophets actually revealed God’s will on coffee/tea etc, to be a law, a
    requirement for eventually receiving eternal life. You should know that God never revealed
    your Word of Wisdom as a commandment in the first place. It was given as advice so LDS
    could live more healthy lives, but Mormon leaders, not God, later made it a requirement for
    eternal life.It became another rung on the ladder of requirements for gaining eternal life that
    Mormon leaders placed on the backs of their people. This behavior by Mormon leaders is
    nothing new as they have created laws and commandments out of their own reasoning and
    thus are seen to be false prophets as they run ahead of God with their teachings: ” I have not
    sent these prophets yet they ran ; I have not spoken to them yet they prophesied .” [Jer23:21]
    Mormonism claims to be the gospel that Jesus directed His original apostles to take to the
    world: ” through Joseph, the gospel that Jesus established in the New Testament times was
    brought back. It had been lost with the death of the apostles of old. ” [ Ensign July 2008 , by
    apostle M. Russell Ballard] . Notice what Mormon leaders have revealed as God’s laws :
    B.Y. taught the celestial “law” , a law patterned after how God( and Jesus) live—-polygamy.
    B.Y. taught taught that God’s “law” was to cut the throat of thieves , and to die for marrying a
    Negro. [cont]

  29. Mike R says:

    yet more “laws” : Brigham Young counseled on another “law”, this one concerned proper
    divorce . He taught that there was another way in which an LDS woman could leave her
    husband, which was if a woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to
    take her and her husband gives her up, there is no bill of divorce required in this case as
    it is right in the sight of God [ Conf.Reports 10-8-1861 ] . As spiritual leader B.Y. publically
    reassured the Saints that he would never advance false doctrine. There are more examples
    of Mormon leaders creating laws and commandments , dumping laws and commandments.
    What have Mormon prophets and apostles accused other devout religious leaders of? Listen:
    ” Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret
    the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ . FALSE IDEAS
    WERE TAUGHT AS TRUTH. ” [ Preach My Gospel, p.35 ].
    Reggie, this issue is a very serious one. Jesus warned of future religious men who would claim
    to speak for Him, they could be hard to detect because of their emphasis on moral living, yet
    injected into this emphasis by them would also be teachings that would be serious enough if
    embraced would bring God’s judgement culminating in loss of eternal life, why? Because God
    declares what is the requirement for gaining eternal life , not man, no matter how humble these
    men would live. Please review these facts: 2Jn1:9; 2Cor.11:4; Gal.2:16 ; Rom.10:1-3; .

  30. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R. the account you are giving by BY on, ” that there was another way in which an LDS woman could leave her husband, which was if a woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to
    take her and her husband gives her up, there is no bill of divorce required in this case as
    it is right in the sight of God [ Conf.Reports 10-8-1861 ]

    Actually this is from a Journal of James Beck, Oct 8, 1861

    There is a Conference Report by George D. Witt that differs from the one you quoted.
    Check it out and then state which one is the correct version.

    Why is the Watt version cited as the main source, I believe the Beck source is the one that is the original.

  31. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R.
    Blood Atonement.
    But he warned anyone who intended to “execute judgment” that he or she “has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, …else they had better let the matter alone.” (Young 1856a, p. 247)

  32. falcon says:

    “Blood Atonement.
    But he warned anyone who intended to “execute judgment” that he or she “has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, …else they had better let the matter alone.” (Young 1856a, p. 247)”

    Whew! That’s a relief. You have to qualify before you can snuff someone. It you’re morally squared away you can be judge, jury and executioner.
    This Brigham Young was a deep thinker, optimum seer/revelator and just an all around top notch theologian.
    It must be nice to be a prophet and not be accountable to anyone. Any stray thought that meanders through your mind can become doctrine. That is, of course, until the next prophet comes along and dismisses all of your first hand communiques from the Mormon god. Either the Mormon god, of this planet, is one of the most unstable gods within the Mormon pantheon of gods or these prophets are making it up as they go along.
    But then think about it. These Mormon gods are “progressing” as BY taught. Maybe they just get a lot smarter as time passes and they share their new discoveries with the current Mormon prophet. That’s as good an explanation as any Mormon can come up with.
    Do Mormons still subscribe to the BY doctrine of blood atonement or is that being revisited?

  33. grindael says:

    Helen makes no real point with her vague accusations against Mike. George D. Watt (not WITT) was the Official Stenographer for the Church, called by Young, and he was accurate. Though this is an unpublished discourse by Young, (at his request) it doesn’t matter, for it is still what he said. The Beck Diary account, doesn’t have many significant changes to this quoted text (though FAIR would have you believe so), and is supported by an entry from Woodruff’s Journal in 1857. Here is the Watt transcript:

    “The second way in which a wife can be separated from her husband while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood I have not revealed except to a few persons in this church, and a few have received it from Joseph the Prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement. (George D. Watt)

    This is from the Woodruff Journals:

    Brigham Young Said Joseph taught that when a womans affections was entirely weaned from her husband that was Adultery in spirit. Her Affections were Adultrated from his. He also said that there was no law in Heaven or on Earth that would Compel a woman to stay with a man either in time or Eternity. This I think is true (but I do not know), that if a man that is a High priest takes a woman & she leaves him & goes to one of a lesser office say the Lesser priesthood or

  34. grindael says:

    member. I think in the resurrection that the High Priest Can Claim her. Joseph [Young]: What if she should not want to go with him? I should not want a woman under those Circumstances.

    Brigham. I will tell you what you will find that all those evil traditions & affections or passions that Haunt the mind in this life will all be done away in the resurrection. You will find then that any man who gets a glory & exaltation will be so beautiful that any woman will be willing to have him if it was right & wherever it is right for the woman to go there she will be willing to go for all those evils will vanish to which we are subject in this life. (Woodruff Journals, 5:55-56)

    Obviously by 1861, Young was ‘sure’, because he preached it in public. In the same meeting, Woodruff reports that Young approved the castration of someone for daring to want a woman that someone with ‘higher authority’ wanted, and said that “the day would come when thousands would be made eunochs in order for them to be saved in the Kingdom of God.”

    Brigham Young and others used their non-definition of marriage to their favor whenever they could, or turned it around and claimed their marriages were legal when they needed to. They were inconsistent, arbitrary, and it all hinged on their positions of authority. Young ran a dictatorial theocracy with himself at the head, making it up as he went along, and women were nothing to him but property to be disposed of, and slandered at will, [which he learned from Smith] because there would always be plenty available when he got to the celestial kingdom.. _johnny

  35. grindael says:

    The Watt and Beck accounts are TWO DIFFERENT ONES. One is not copied from the other. They were both obviously at the same meeting and reported what they heard. Beck wrote in his diary, “I do not vouch for the correctness of this by any means as my experience is that the memory of man is treacherous. – JA Beck”

    But by comparing the accounts, one comes to the conclusion that Beck was pretty accurate. Young gave another discourse that was approved by him and published in the JOD:

    I tell the brethren and Sisters, when they come to me and want a bill of divorce, that I am ready to seal people and administer in the ordinances, and they are welcome to my services, but when they undertake to break the commandments and tear to pieces the doings of the Lord, I make them give me something. I tell a man he has to give me ten dollars if he wants a divorce. For what? My services? No, for his foolishness. If you want a bill of divorce give me ten dollars, so that I can put it down in the book that such a man and such a woman have dissolved partnership. Do you think you have done so when you have obtained a bill of divorce? No, nor ever can if you are faithful to the covenants you have made. It takes a higher power than a bill of divorce to take a woman from a man who is a good man and honors his Priesthood—it must be a man who possesses a higher power in the Priesthood, or else the woman is bound to her husband, and will be forever and ever. (JOD 17:119)_johnny

  36. grindael says:

    Actually, that meeting where Young approved the castration is interesting, for Young revealed:

    President Young said we cannot cleanse the platter because the people will not bear it. Joseph [Young]–I am willing to have the people cleanse the platter if they can do it in righteousness and judge righteous judgment. Brigham–This people never were half as well prepared to execute righteousness as now. I will tell you that when a man is trying to do right and do something that is not exactly in order, I feel to sustain him and we all should. I wish there was some people on earth who could tell us just how much sin we must sustain before we can chastise the people and correct their errors.

    Joseph [Young] said I wish I knew what my limits were. Brigham–your limits are endless and you have not got half way to the end of it yet. Now when I was an elder, I was as willing to correct an error in the brethren as I am now. But the people do not see it so. Now if you should be with the 12, or anybody, you would have a right to correct an error as well as with a member, but you could not correct them by cutting them off from the Church, because they are over you in the priesthood.”

    Young was not talking about verbally chastising them. This was all about actions. Castration and blood atonement. _johnny

  37. grindael says:

    Young taught in 1867 that if one does not Obey the WOW in every way, then one cannot have the ‘spirit’ and is on the road to apostasy:

    “What did we drink hot when that Word of Wisdom was given? Tea and coffee. It definitely refers to that which we drink with our food. I said to the Saints at our last annual Conference, the Spirit whispers to me to call upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom, to let tea, coffee, and tobacco alone, and to abstain from drinking spirituous drinks. This is what the Spirit signifies through me. If the Spirit of God whispers this to His people through their leader, and they will not listen nor obey, what will be the consequence of their disobedience? Darkness and blindness of mind with regard to the things of God will be their lot; they will cease to have the spirit of prayer, and the spirit of the world will increase in them in proportion to their disobedience until they apostatize entirely from God and His ways.

    if any man comes to you and tells you that you must have a little tea and a little coffee, by the same rule he may urge you to take a little tobacco and a little intoxicating liquor, or a little of any other substance which is hurtful to man. This destroys their claim and right to the spirit of revelation, and they go into darkness.” (Journal of Discourses 12:117-8)_johnny

  38. Mike R says:

    Johnny, Thanks for your help. I was putting some info together for Helen t think
    about relative to her comment to me but you saved me a lot of time.

    Helen, I really did’nt quite understand your point concerning what I said about this
    Mormon marriage/divorse issue I cited. If you noticed I did’nt use quotation marks
    in my stating this teaching to Reggie, that for a reason as my purpose was to bring this
    teaching to Reggie’s attention only, if he ( or you) deny that this is a “law” created by
    a Mormon leader than I was ready to show him what was said etc. It seems you missed
    the point of my post to Reggie. Can you see why this behavior by Mormon leaders in
    creating laws, rules, requirements , for faithful LDS to prove their worthiness and be
    considered in God’s will as Christians, is disturbing? These “laws” are not the gospel that
    that Jesus taught , they only come from the reasoning of prophets who then claim their
    spiritual witness is actually Jesus directing them to teach this as Godly counsel . These
    men are false prophets pure and simple. Is there a consequence for submitting to the
    authority of a false prophet ? Matt 15:14. Can you live a christian life without them ?
    Yes, if you exchange them for Jesus’ counsel to His authentic apostles — 1 Jn.5:20
    [ note: did a Mormon leader teach that it was a “law” to kill a thief ? That’s what I
    said, I never said anything about if it was ever carried out etc. You seemed to have
    missed that fact also . ]

  39. helenlouissmith says:

    Blood atonement, is it scriptural?

    “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” Genesis 9:6

    Those who claim that BY practiced and preached this as something that would be put into affect are not reading and understanding what he actually stated:

    16 March 1856 sermon:

    When this people have lived long enough upon the earth, to have the principles of life and salvation disseminated among them, and to have their children taught in those principles, so that they fully know the principles of eternal salvation, then let us or our children turn away from the commandments of God, as some do now, and I could tell you what will be done with them.

    Brother Wooley has said, the time is not far distant, but it will never come until the inhabitants of the earth, and especially those who have been gathered together, have a sufficient time to be educated in the celestial law, so that each person may understand for himself. Then if they transgress against the light and knowledge they possess, some will be stoned to death, and “judgment will be laid to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.” But people will never be taken and sacrificed for their ignorance, when they have had no opportunity to know and understand the truth. Such a proceeding would be contrary to the economy of heaven. But after we receive and understand things as they are, if we then disobey, we if we then disobey, we may look for the chastening hand of the Almighty.

    Quite obviously he is talking about Celestial Law.

  40. falcon says:

    I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but you and I know that Mormons have a totally different mind set when it comes to religious rules, regulations, requirements and laws. As Christians, we want to lead a morally upstanding life because of what Jesus did for us on the Cross. We walk in a newness of life and not in the oldness of the law.
    The motivation for adhering to a set of religious rules for Mormons is so they can become gods. In that context, what they do and defend makes sense. Becoming a god is not a free gift. It must be earned. Requirements must be fulfilled. Boxes must be checked-off. That’s why there is an interview for a temple recommend. It’s to determine if a Mormon is worthy.
    Now you and I know that we aren’t worthy based on our performance and we never will be worthy. I don’t even try to be “worthy”. My goal is to walk in the Spirit so I won’t carry out the deeds of the flesh because that’s what someone who is born again does. I’m worthy because of what Jesus did for me, not what I do. What I do is filthy rags in terms of meriting anything.
    If we are awarded any jewels in our crown it’s for the purpose of praising God. At the end we’ll take off those crowns and throw them at the feet of our Savior.
    Mormons need to get back to square one and discover who God is and what it means to have eternal life. Maybe then they could enjoy a cup of coffee!

  41. Mike R says:

    What’s going on here ? : Heber C. Kimball( First Presidency) said that VIRTUOUS Saints
    will not sell whiskey [ J.of D.v 2p161] . Yet Brigham Young built a distillery.
    Apostle George Q. Cannon taught that hot drinks, tea,coffee, chocolate,cocoa are not
    good for man [1868] . But Deseret News [ May 5 1962 Editorial page in Church News ] taught:
    chocolate and cocoa are not as harmful as coffee , ” Persons who say that those drinking
    hot chocolate are breaking the Word of Wisdom as effectively as if they drank coffee do
    not state the truth….”
    Did’nt Joseph Smith teach that no official member in his church is worthy to hold office
    after having the Words of Wisdom properly taught to him, and he , the official member
    neglecting to comply with, or obey them ? [ see Kirkland High Council Minute book
    2-20-1834 ]. Was this true ? Did Mormon officials comply ?
    Mormon writer John Stewart claims that Joseph Smith ” carefully observed the Word of
    Wisdom” [ Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet,p90 ]. Did he ?
    What did Brigham Young mean by this : ” Should not I take my tea and coffee, my beef and
    pork and every OTHER GOOD THING ,and put it into the hands of the men who sweat over
    the rock for the Temple, instead of feeding men women and children who do not strive to do
    all they are capable of doing ? ” [ J.of D. v5 38 ]. Coffee a good thing ?
    Mormon leaders claim to be trustworthy guides in spiritual matters . But there is better way:

  42. Mike R says:

    Falcon, well said.

    Helen, could you re-read my post about the “laws” that Mormon leaders have claimed
    that they have relayed from God ? Do officers who claim to be in charge of running Jesus’
    restored new covenant church teach things like marrying a Negro or habitual thieves are
    violating a law of God and can be killed for these sins ? The whole context of my post was
    concerning the behavior of Mormon leaders in creating laws’ rules , commandments, as
    requirements that can make a person worthy before God , and some have a bearing on if
    a person receives eternal life or not. This is very serious . It’s either the gospel of Jesus or
    it’s another gospel. The Word of Wisdom is only a small example of this behavior by Mormon
    leaders. Who are the false prophets Jesus warned of ? Do all false prophets live immoral
    lifestyles ? What am I missing if I cling to Jesus’ counsel thru His apostles as revealed in the
    New Testament ?

  43. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R. you seem so set on seeing a new doctrine, or should I say a lost doctrine that has been newly restored, become in one instance perfect. Changes in how the Church was to be set up and even in how some of the principles such as WoW, once only a guide in keeping healthy but then changed, were all incorporated as the Church grew in membership and Temples were being built for the worthy who wanted to increase in knowledge and light.

    You and others make more noise about something that most LDS could care little to nothing about.
    Many of our past GA’s even some apostles and prophets drank beer or wine, after the WW was introduced. Caffeine was seen as the culprit, but then came along Coke, Pepsi, etc. These product do no keep someone from not getting a TR nor does Red Bull, etc. So yes, confusion at first, then a sorting out of the what, how and why.

    Seventy, this use to be a office just like a Elder, Hight Priest in the local Wards and then determined by study a prayer that Seventy was restricted too GA’s only.

    Your points are all valid, but the letter of the law does not in anyway affect the more important spiritual and revelatory impact to each and every member in the Church.

    Nothing had ever been changed that would affect the true Doctrine of the Plan of Salvation, when that happen we had better watch out and see who is behind the changes and get them out of the way as apostates.

    Peter and Paul had differences and argued about concepts that they taught to the members.

  44. Mike R says:

    Helen, I’m somewhat disappointed in your response . Respectfully but you don’t seem to
    see the seriousness of this . You said that myself and others here are only making noise on
    something that most LDS care little about. I think you’re talking about yourself because I
    feel most LDS care about Jesus’ warning about coming false prophets, any follower of Jesus
    would. Any false prophet would love to have people not care about this warning as he would
    have easy pickins ! What you said about ” changes in how the church was set up….as the
    Church grew in membership…” , you cite this as a alibi for all the inaccurate teachings by
    Mormon leaders ? This makes scriptures like Eph.4:14 worthless . Mormon leaders have
    accused non-LDS religious leaders of teaching for doctrine the commandments of men . This
    seems like the pot calling the kettle black ! [ cont]

  45. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R.

    I sure you’re right, there are those like you and grindael most likely found this to be too serious for you to care about your membership. I’m sure there will be others who never received or doubted they received a confirmation the the BOM is true, as for me, the principle testimony I received are two fold, Jesus is the Christ and the BOM is true.

  46. Rick B says:

    Helen, you act as if the WoW is nothing, why bother obeying it, sadly your Prophet/presdient did not feel the same way.

    LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

    “SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. ‘Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn’t amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.’ …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)

    Then your church teaches this:

    The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
    1. Church attendance
    2. Payment of tithes and offerings
    3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
    4. Moral cleanliness.
    5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
    6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

    Notice it says “Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.” Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don’t sustain the authorities of the church and don’t love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

  47. Mike R says:

    Helen, you admitted that many LDS leaders drank wine etc after the WW was introduced,
    this is correct , and the confusion you admitted to on this fact should be a reminder to LDS .
    Even after B.Y. asked his followers to covenant to keep it , it was still broken by some
    Mormon leaders like Prophet Woodruff in 1897 . Next, you mentioned that ” your points are
    valid” , however you then added “but the letter of the law does not in anyway affect the more
    important spiritual and revelatory impact to each and every member in the church .” What ?
    “the letter of the law” ? How about the claims of Mormon leaders to be reliable spiritual guides
    who have promised that their followers can trust their teachings because of their ability to
    “know the mind and will of God ” , and that because of this position LDS should submit to their
    counsel, why ? because , ” It should be remembered that Lucifer has a very cunning way of
    convincing unsuspecting souls that the General Authorities of the Church are as likely to be
    wrong as they are right. ” [ Deseret News, 5-26-1945]. Sincere people have invested their hope
    of eternal life on the trustworthiness of these men’s claims and accepting the teachings of these
    men even over the letter of the written word : ” the purest word of God, and that least apt to be
    polluted , is that which comes from the lips of the living prophets who are set up to guide Israel
    in our day and time” [ Ensign Nov 1976 p.64]. You then mentioned Paul and Peter disagreeing .
    This does’nt even began to answer the problem produced by Mormon prophets . [ cont]

  48. Mike R says:

    Lastly you made the incredible statement that , ” Nothing had ever been changed that
    would affect the true Doctrine of the plan of Salvation….” That is so false. Mormon
    prophets have issued many “commandments”, and “laws” that become to LDS as serious
    requirements that have a bearing on whether they attain eternal life or not . Some of these
    are not even taught in the Standard Works ! Most revolve on how to get thru the “gate to
    heaven” [ Temple] , as one Mormon apostle stated. The position on salvation is clear,
    ” To get salvation we must not only do some things , but everything which God has
    commanded .” [ Teachings of the Presidents of. the Church , J.S. p161 ] . How do LDS
    know what God has commanded/required ? Answer= ” you can always trust the living
    prophets.Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord…..” [ True To The Faith p129].
    One such requirement to enter the gate of heaven and progress to eternal life was that an
    initiate’s first experience in the Temple was to be re-baptized prior to receive his/her secret
    name,tokens . Re-baptism still practiced ? Women once required to get their husbands
    permission to attend an endowment ? Still today? This type of vacillating on important
    issues is not lost on many LDS, they see it plainly and it troubles them. One ex LDS writes:
    ” The final decisive moment was when I realized that the prophets routinely contradict
    themselves through their doctrines and that it is impossible to discern what is doctrine
    versus opinion. No amount of praying and good works could resolve the extensive
    contradictions. We all know why.” 2Cor11:4 ; 2Jn1:9

  49. grindael says:

    The Word of Wisdom becoming a ‘binding’ commandment was all about the benjamins folks.

    In their September 1851 Conference, Patriarch John Smith gave an address on the Word of Wisdom and following that, Young arose and,

    “called on all the sisters who will leave off the use of tea, coffee, &c., to manifest it by raising the right hand, seconded and carried.” Then called “on all the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of tobacco, whisky, and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom, to manifest it in the same manner, which was carried unanimously.”

    Patriarch Smith then added, “may the Lord bless you and help you to keep all your covenants. Amen.” Following this, Young then remarked that,

    “he knew the goodness of the people, and the Lord bears with our weakness; we must serve the Lord, and those who go with me will keep the Word of Wisdom, and if the High Priests, the Seventies, the Elders, and others will not serve the Lord, WE WILL SEVER THEM FROM THE CHURCH. I will draw the line and know who is for the Lord and who is not, and THOSE WHO WILL NOT KEEP THE WORD OF WISDOM, I WILL CUT OFF FROM THE CHURCH; I throw out a challenge to all men and women. Have I not always counselled you right? I would rather you would cut me into inch pieces, that to flinch from my duty, the Lord being my helper. I would rather live with a few men who will serve the Lord, THAN LIVE WITH TEN THOUSAND HYPOCRITES.” (9 September 1851 Salt Lake City MS 14:35 General Conference, am, (Elden Watson, Brigham Young Addresses, Vol. 2 page 62)

  50. grindael says:

    Ten Years Later, at another Conference, Young states:

    “Some of the brethren are very strenuous upon the “Word of Wisdom,” and would like to have me preach upon it, and urge it upon the brethren, and MAKE IT A TEST OF FELLOWSHIP. I do not think that I shall do so. I HAVE NEVER DONE SO. We annually expend only $60,000 to break the “Word of Wisdom,” and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it. Some would ask brother Brigham whether he keeps the “Word of Wisdom.” No: and I can say still further, as I told one of the teachers in Nauvoo, I come as near doing so as any man in this generation. It is not using tobacco that particularly breaks the “Word of Wisdom,” nor is that the only bad practice it corrects; but it is profitable in every path of life. If our young persons were manly enough to govern their appetites a little, they would not contract these bad habits; but they must have some weaknesses; they must not be perfect and exactly right in everything. _Brigham Young, April 7, 1861. (Journal Of Discourses, 9:35)

    Money changes everything. And of course all this means nothing to Mormons now, because all embarrassment must be swept under the carpet. Out of sight, out of mind? Young’s hypocrisy here is astounding. _johnny

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