Don and Rayola Larson are Latter-day Saints who have served in various leadership roles in the Mormon Church. They have been teachers at two Church-owned and operated schools, and completed two proselyting missions. Of their mission to England, they write,
“We began holding classes and taught groups of people…It soon became apparent that some of the members had no foundation in the basic teachings of the gospel. They had retained very little from the discussions that were taught when they joined the church, so we decided to write a study guide on the Plan of Salvation.” (Plan of Salvation, 2004, vii)
The first chapter of this self-published book explains the Mormon doctrine of the pre-existence in simple and easy language, covering the high points of the teaching that all human beings existed in a spiritual state with Heavenly Father before coming to earth and becoming mortal. Apart from the absence of any mention of Heavenly Mother, and the odd statement that “our Father, with his superior technology, probably showed each of us an earth similar to the one where we would all go,” the Larson’s study guide pretty much presents what would be expected. But it got more interesting for me when I got to the proof texts they provide.
Under the heading “Spirit Children” the Larsons include Proverbs 8:22-31:
“The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, …rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” (The Plan of Salvation, 8, ellipsis in the original.)
That sure sounds like the Mormon doctrine of pre-existence — until you read the passage in its context. The subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdom. In fact,
“The main subject of Proverbs chapters 1–9 is wisdom, which is an abstract quality or character trait rather than a person, but wisdom is treated as a woman from the first chapter right through chapter 9. Wisdom is portrayed as a woman of dazzling attractiveness and virtue, who teaches in the marketplace of the town (1:20), who is romantically embraced (4:8–9), who can be addressed as ‘my sister’ (7:4), who utters a long speech commending herself to the public (chap. 8), and who builds a house and invites people to an alluring banquet (9:1–6).” (Leland Ryken, “Who Is Wisdom in Proverbs 8?”)
Proverbs 8 begins, “Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?” (v. 1) “…at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud: ‘To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man’” (vv. 3-4). “Hear, for I will speak noble things…” (v. 6). “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion” (v. 12). Throughout Proverbs 8 it is wisdom personified who speaks, not Heavenly Father’s spirit children. It is wisdom who was from the beginning, wisdom who was present when the heavens were prepared, wisdom who was God’s daily delight. If the Larsons intended to say this passage of scripture supports the idea that spirit children were “brought forth” before the hills were formed, they have severely misused it. But perhaps this was not their intent.
The LDS edition of the Bible explains that Proverbs 8 says “the Lord and the sons of men possessed wisdom in the premortal life.” Therefore, perhaps the Larsons meant to focus on the words at the end of the quoted passage: “my delights were with the sons of men” (v. 31). One could reason, if this was before “ever the earth was,” and there were “sons of men” with whom wisdom delighted, the sons of men must also have existed “when there were no depths.” Voila! Spirit children.
But this doesn’t work for the Mormon position, either. In Proverbs 8 wisdom begins with God before creation, and continues with Him as He forms the earth, establishes the clouds, sets the boundaries of the sea…through creation to the point where wisdom rejoices in God’s inhabited world because, as God declared, “it was very good” (Genesis 1:31).
Proverbs 8 does not support the Mormon doctrine of pre-existence. As is so often the case with Mormon proof texts, they have been dangerously twisted to mean something God never intended (2 Peter 3:16).
“You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” (2 Peter 3:17-18)
Rick B.: “But I cannot ban her or make her talk, but either way, I speak my mind, and I do hold back what I say and think due to the rules.”
Love and sharing the Gospel, where is the love since Helen does not share?? Rick, this is a Forum, a discussion on Mormonism and I don’t think sharing testimonies or the Mormon Doctrine is allowed.
If I came here every day and posted a sermon, then you wish would come true and I would be banned.
As I said before, six post a day and I choose who or whom I wish to address, when I asked about verse 30 all I got was another question, no one really addressed why verse 30 is intentionally passed over when quoting the BOM and polygamy, but like Sharon stated, lets move on.
[Helen, folks on this forum discussed Jacob 2:30 (in the BOM) and how it relates to Mormon polygamy. Your question, “Why [is] verse 30…intentionally passed over when quoting the BOM and polygamy,” is a red herring question. The people on this forum willingly discussed Jacob 2:30 and polygamy. You are asking them to give you a reason (a motive) for the alleged choices and behavior of others (an allegation that has not been proved, by the way). Even if they could speak for “all Orthodox Christians” as you’ve requested, the answer to your question would have no bearing on the topic of polygamy in the Book of Mormon, which is what was under discussion when you initially raised the question. Please (actually) move on. -Sharon]
Rick B. asked this, “So if you dont believe that we are sinners as of a result of Adam then how do you explain the fact your a sinner? How exactly did you fall? Were you born sinless, you had to of been, so how exactly do LDS go from being born perfect to being fallen sinners in need of a saviour? How come this is never taught in LDS church? The idea that your child will be born perfect and you can help them walk in perfection and never sin.”
Oh Rick, being a man I guess you just never will understand the intuitive and nurturing nature of women. I don’t know of any women, Christian, Mormon, Muslim, etc, etc that could ever look into the eyes of innocence, a pure sinless newly born child, who can’t talk, has no ability too understand, and very little time here on Earth yet to sin. I would love to have a consensus of all other Evangelicals who believe that babies having just been born are already sinners. Amazing and naive is your mistaken take on Gods Gospel and His love for infants recently sent form his presence.
The second Article of Faith says, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.”
Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption (Moroni 8:19-20).
grindael,
And Mormons want to be called Christians? They acknowledge many gods who are limited at any point in time by what they don’t know. These gods are, after all, simply human beings on a self-improvement program. And there are so many of them but they have eternity to keep on learning and become more knowing and powerful and filled with more wisdom. So some of the gods are smarter than others and since at any given time there are things they don’t know, they keep revealing their new knowledge to the Mormon prophets as they learn it.
At one time the Mormon god of this world revealed to Joseph Smith (and he wrote about it in the BoM) that he/god was of a nature much like Christians believe God is. Then latter the Mormon god down-graded himself and he became a very limited god like being and (revealed) he was just one of many. This Mormon god also “revealed” (as he learned more) that men could become gods.
The Mormon god was at one time down on people with dark colored skin not allowing them the priesthood and therefore becoming gods. Then in the 1970s, under a great deal of social pressure from earthlings, the Mormon god learned more and changed his mind.
We have in the past few days learned that our Mormon poster friend Helen believes she can receive whatever she wants regarding these revelations and dismiss whatever she wants. In some ways Helen doesn’t differ that much from us only in degree. That is, she accepts what, 70%, 50%, 30% of Mormonism however we accept 0%. It’s just a matter of degree. It does bring up the issue, however, of the veracity of these Mormon prophets including Joseph Smith. How much of the BoM is true, 0% -100%?
Helen noted this in her early blog-As Nibley also pointed out, “this was a teaching that had enormous impact. It makes all the difference on how we look at our situation on earth, doesn’t it?” If you ponder the idea of pre-existence various ideas can come up. One may be when we are judged we will be judged by our life before we came to live on this planet and our actions on this planet. Aaron Shafovaloff had the great idea of god never sinned. He took the simple couplet of as man is God once was, as God is man may become and seemed to give it a negative spin (probably my thoughts not his) making it seems that we may be ruled by a once sinful God. Well we don’t know if God sinned or not. We also do not know what we did before we came here. If we did we would not be having this dialog. I also ponder what knowledge Jesus had of pre-mortal existence.
I have been on other Forums where in they give the negative spin also to the Conception of Jesus Christ.
By Bill McKeever and Aaron Shafovaloff:
Mormons have insisted they believe in the virgin birth, yet they have given a description far removed from that held by Christians throughout the centuries. The following quotes show how the “virgin” birth has been redefined by Mormons, including Mormon prophets and apostles, in a way that has never been accepted in Christian circles. While individual Mormons are divided over this issue, to this day the Mormon Church has no unequivocal official position on whether the immortal Heavenly Father had sexual intercourse with his mortal spirit-daughter Mary to conceive Jesus.
Young’s comment about the past being all a blank is in relation to the origins of the gods themselves… was there a beginning? He is saying nope, that it will never be traced back to ‘a’ god. Well, that’s just ridiculous, as is most of Young’s theology, as is Smith’s “The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. ” (1839)
If the Priesthood was ‘co-eternal’ with ‘intelligences’, for that is what the gods were, before they became ‘spirit children’, then how did the ‘intelligences’ get to be born? They would have had to be born of some ‘god’, but if ‘intelligences’ came first, then how did they get the ‘right’ of the ‘keys’ of the Priesthood? And how did that first ‘god’ bridge the gap to ‘spirit entity’, and how was it ‘born’ into mortality, since there was no ‘god’ or ‘goddess’ to give birth to it, or to create mortals to house the ‘spirit babies’. Again Smith: “The spirit of man is not a created being it existed from eternity, and will exist o eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, &c., had their existence in an elementary state from eternity.” And again, who had the first ‘spirit baby’?
This self-aggrandizement of men into gods, cannot work, for obvious reasons. It puts Priesthood, as a universal ‘law’ like the ‘force’ from Star Wars, only one has to be ‘righteous’ to exercise it, and to do that, it must be conferred from person to person, but then you must ask, how did that first ‘god’ get the right of Priesthood, and ‘godhood’, when all were ‘intelligences’ once? _johnny
Contrast that with the Christian God, who truly is from everlasting to everlasting, that man was created by, who will never comprehend Him or His glory, and though can take on His Nature, and become ‘heirs’ in that sense, will never be another ‘Him’, for we are not ontologically (ὤν, ὄντος εἰμί λογία) the same, for God just IS.
Smith simply ripped off this concept and applied it to MAN, a created being of God, when there is absolutely no proof for this in the Bible, and in so doing, is forced to explain how this can be, something that can never be explained. _johnny
“Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy ever principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create—to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book.” ~Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p.218
Helen,
You did not answer the questions, all you did was claim Children are born inocent and not sinners.
How do you get around these verse that state otherwise?
Also if your born sinless as you claim, or should I say, children are born sinless, Then how do they all of a sudden sin? Why do they not remain sinless and lead a perfect life? Jesus was born sinless and lead a perfect life, why is it no one else can?
Rick,
The Fall is something that I have been thinking about for the past few days. As a Mormon, my belief matched Helen’s because that is what is taught in the LDS church. Infant baptism is looked down upon. I have to ask, what 8 year old really knows or understands any better than an infant? Sure they may know not to steal or lie, but really how developed are their minds to understand what the remission of sin is and what the Atonement really means and the nature of sin etc. Baptizing every kid just because they turn 8 really isn’t that appropriate either, do they know Christ? Do they want to give their life to him? Or is it just the thing you do when you are 8? The way I understand the Fall ( anyone correct me if I am wrong here) is that sin came into the world because of Adam’s transgression. We live in a fallen state. We are born into a fallen state. I don’t think anyone here thinks that a baby is sinful in the same way that a grown up is. If that baby grows up, it will certainly sin. We all sin because of the Fall. Babies will sin as they grow up and mature. We are all in need of a Savior. Yes, even babies.
Helen, Kate,
I have 3 kids so I can speak from experiance, and Falcon and Sharon have meet them and my family in General, lest anyone say, I dont believe Rick.
Explain to me How come you do not need to tell Kids the word No. They have to be taught to say Yes, but never no. They lie, They are busted cold flat for doing something, they reply with, It was not me.
I did not do it. Their was a TV show a while back called Kid Nation, everyone was waiting for this show to exalt kids and prove they were the best ever and could run themselves. The local Shrinks were Giddy over this show, after the show ended it was cancalled for ever and you cannot even find the very last episode on the web. Does Anyone know why? Becasue these kids Looted the town and burned it to the Ground. It was a HUGE EMBARESMENT for TV. They/everyone thought, we will finally see just how good an loving and INCONECT little kids were. How wrong everyone was, They Lied, manipulated, showed evil, everything. My ghosh, these little sweet inocent born perfect children, even two of them being so called Christians. No one can explain what went wrong.
I can, They were born sinners, they are sinners, plain and simple.
Dear Helen,
In the gospel of John, we read the following:
“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all” (John 3:31).
Do you believe I came from above? Came from heaven? If so, then would I be “above all?” Of course I am not above all, any more than I came from heaven. This passage is describing Jesus Christ. I am “of the earth.” I’m just a creature of God. Only God is self-existent. Jesus Christ alone “cometh from heaven” because … Jesus Christ is God.
Dear Rick,
Excellent illustration. I’d not heard of that television program. It certainly shows that humans are not “basically good,” despite the widely held belief of our day to the contrary.
Earlier, Helen asked if a baby is born a sinner? Has it committed a sin yet? I think Helen may be thinking of sin as solely an action. According to the Bible, sin includes our very nature. We have all been born with a sinful nature. Later actions spring from this nature. Actions which reveal our nature is sinful. This nature is something we inherited: going all the way back to Adam and Eve. When they were created they were indeed good. However, their natures changed when they sinned by disobeying God.
For all who have never see Kid Nation or never heard of it, simply go to youtube and type in kid nation, the only thing you wont find is the very last and final episode.
The Bible tells us were are born sinner, Kind David said he was concived in sin, and anyone that thinks babies are not sinners then answer this. Is manipulation a sin?
If so Babies do this. Have you ever feed your baby, then burped it, then bathed it, then changed the baby, then maybe made faces at the baby, then did a double check to make sure everything is fine with baby. Ok, now you put baby in crib and here, WWWHHHHHAAAAA.
You take baby out, crying stops. You double check, Diaper is dry and clean, You pull out the Boob, nope Babies not Hungrey, You check, nothing in crib that maybe baby laid on and got hurt, you smell baby, not farts or gas, from everything you check, Baby is OK.
Put baby back in and leave, then hear WWWHHHHHAAAAA. Thats plain and simple MANIPULATION. Babies do it from birth, they might not have the brain Function and reasoning to know they do it, but that is what they are doing. Will they go to hell if they die since they are not old enough to think and reason and do not know scripture? No they wont, Kind Davids BABY that was born from adultray Died, Kind David said, He cannot come back to me, But I can go to him.
The Bible does not tell us when we reach and age of accountablity, like Mormons say it is 8 years old.
Some people it might bhe older depending on if they have mental retardation or not, or some diease.
But they are sinners none the less.
Brian,
“According to the Bible, sin includes our very nature. We have all been born with a sinful nature. Later actions spring from this nature.”
Thanks! This is what I was meaning but didn’t say it well. We are born with a sin nature and yes babies will sin as they grow.
Rick,
I have had 3 babies also and I have to disagree with your explanation of babies being manipulative. Babies have different cries. Mommies can usually tell which cry is hunger, which cry is uncomfortable, which cry is boredom, and which cry is just that they need to be wrapped and cuddled. When my babies would cry there was always something wrong. My point about having a standard age 8 baptism is that maybe some 8 year olds are mature for their age and they “get” it. What about those who really haven’t gone to church much, but have the missionaries come in and give them the missionary lessons that go right over their heads and then are thought to be ready? I believe that we should be baptized when we accept Christ into our heart and are born again. Not just at a certain age. Brian said what I was thinking and I just didn’t say it well. 🙂
Been reading some of the others posters comments, boy I’m truly, truly surprised at those who claim Baby’s can sin. But then again, this is the apostate preaching of a dead religion who has no keys, no authority and no priesthood, why? because you want to tell God how to run His Church, members make the rules and God takes a back seat. Amazing. 🙂
PS, Kate at what age does a infant/child have to be to confess and know Jesus is his/her Lord and Savior, or does that depend on the maturity and judgement of God. Hopefully it depends on the judgement of God and not the men who came up with the doctrine.
I have found that it is the modern “TBM’s” that want to tell the Mormon God “how to run His Church”, because many of them don’t believe much of what those who used to be “sustained” as “prophets, seers, & revelators” have said.
Mormonism today, is blind obedience to the suits in power NOW, adapting what they ‘believe’ through the lens of ignorance and redaction, and giving the finger to those who were once fervently hailed as the “mouthpieces” of God in their time.
But with each new generation of Mormons, a wider and wider gulf appears between what used to be “truth” and what is now perceived as truth by members who are lied to, manipulated, brainwashed and taught that what has been said, is never set in stone, because contradiction is policy, and the “truth” is allowed to be spun by apologetic groups within the Church who have to run disclaimers saying that the don’t even officially speak for it.
The result is spiritual barrenness, rituals that are tailored to fit the current PR Trends, and a widening gap between the leaders who sit in their lofty perches high in their Corporate Offices, (where those below them abuse the little “authority” they are granted), -those same spiritually bankrupt leaders, who punish those that would reveal the truth with ex-communication and repeat over and over again the mantra that the truth is ‘not always beneficial’, while claiming that they alone speak for God, BUT don’t now need ‘much revelation’ for they are terrified of revealing that they aren’t really in touch with the spirit of prophecy, have no gifts to ‘see’ and so reveal nothing new year after year.
Members truly make the rules in Mormonism, because they VOTE on what to believe.
Helen, It’s not so much that babies can sin – it just they can’t help it. It’s their nature. Take a look around, open your eyes. Sinning is not just something we do when we’re bored – it’s in our very nature. We are born fallen creatures, and we are born with a sin nature. Face it Helen, we like to sin. That’s why we all do it! Not only is this doctrine Scriptural (read Romans chapter 5 – “as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to life and justification for all men”), it fits perfectly with the world we observe with our eyes.
We covenant to raise our children in the love of Jesus and they are taught God’s law and His free redeeming love and mercy, so they will continue to trust Him in faith. They are taught to daily drown their sinful man (the old Adam nature) in the waters of their baptism, and to rise and walk in the new man with Christ. We point children (and ourselves) to Jesus on the Cross dying for our sins and rising again to conquer death. God’s mercy to us sinful people is truly amazing.
Wow Rick B Very interesting insight into child psychology. A lot of people will say you are wrong. According to my theory of pre-existence the baby is probably trying to remember what you did or where they remember you from in your past life. Since they can’t communicate they can’t tell you anything. Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? A pretty good book about kids without adults. Another thing to remember is that adam’s fall seperated us from God. We are raised by people who are flawed which makes our journey through life just as flawed so we will sin or fall short of the glory of God.
Clyde, that hitting the all truthful nail on the head, thanks for some truth regardless of how Orthodox want to believe and new baby infant is possible of sinning.
Rick B.
Can you name one sin that babies commit? Why did Jesus say the kingdom of heaven belongs to little children? (Matt 19:14) Where in the bible does it show a baby committing sin? Why did Ezekiel say each man is responsible for his own sin (actions), not those of his father –and vice versa? (Ezekiel 18:19-20).
Here’s a good one Rick, doubt you will take the time to answer it.
How are babies saved without faith in Christ? (John 8:24)
John 8:24
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Clyde6070 said
This is not an excuse, First off the Bible tells us we are all with out excuse. So we cannot say, Sorry I fell short Lord, It was the parents you gave me. Adam was perfect and He still blamed his wife.
Then as Scripture tells us, Jesus was Perfect and lived a perfect and sinless life, Yet he was raised by sinful parents and raised in living conditions where people wanted Him dead, and many religious leaders that were truly clueless and dishonest. How do we now the religious leaders were like that, The Bible tells us when Jesus grew up he confronted them, He made a whip of cords and cleaned His fathers house out, and called them a den of thieves. So Helen Implies she and People in General are born sinless, claims her doctrine and church teaches this.
Again she and mormons trhow the word of God under the bus by claiming it is wrong, if it is wrong and cannot be trusted, by read it? Why pass it out? Why even try calling yourselves Christians? Why do you guys cry when we claim your not? You flat out reject the word of God, want nothing to do with it, but then you say thats not true, we use it, pass it out, Etc. Yet you keep rejecting it at every turn.
Then as I pointed out, Helen accuses us of lots of things, but then I bust her for doing what she says we supposdly do, and we/I flat out ask her questions on scripture that she asked about and rejects, and cannot/will not answer them.
Helen,
I don’t pretend to be an expert on this topic. This is something that I have been thinking about and studying over the past few days. I am taking in everyone’s comments and why they believe what they believe. I was taught the Mormon way of thinking on babies sinning and honestly in my opinion and from what I have been reading, I believe Brian has it right. Brian said:
“Earlier, Helen asked if a baby is born a sinner? Has it committed a sin yet? I think Helen may be thinking of sin as solely an action. According to the Bible, sin includes our very nature. We have all been born with a sinful nature. Later actions spring from this nature. Actions which reveal our nature is sinful. This nature is something we inherited: going all the way back to Adam and Eve. When they were created they were indeed good. However, their natures changed when they sinned by disobeying God.”
Babies are born with a sinful nature. They may not be able to physically sin at birth or even know the difference between right and wrong until their brain matures some, but the sin nature is there. When do you believe that the sin nature enters a child?? How does it get there? I do believe that Jesus has a special place in his heart for children or he would not have said, Mark 10:14
Being born with a sinful nature is not sinning. How can a baby do something they cannot be responsible for since they as of yet have no law. Actions or thoughts are both impossible for newborns, meaning the action of sinning and including the thought process. Sinful nature is a nice sounding concept, but actually what does the Bible mean by it. Evangelicals add to the scriptures and it’s meanings wherein that is telling God what He categorically is stating, I doubt that God listens to the reasoning of man.
Helen,
I am literally laughing out loud!
“Evangelicals add to the scriptures and it’s meanings wherein that is telling God what He categorically is stating.”
Mormonism adds so much to this that it’s comical. Babies are literal spirit children of the Mormon god and one of his many spirit wives, sent here to gain a body, a god in embryo, and on and on it goes with this outlandish theory. Which one of us is adding to scripture? Sin entered into the world with the Fall of Adam. We all inherit it. Even babies have it. You still didn’t answer my question as to when babies are capable of a sin nature. When and why do they begin to sin? If you are thinking about them not being accountable until the age of 8, let me just say that when my boys were as young as 3 they knew it was a sin to steal or lie or cheat. So are they able to commit sin and not have any consequences until 8? That’s not what I taught my kids.
“I doubt that God listens to the reasoning of man.”
Exactly, that pretty much sums up the reason I left Mormonism. It’s a religion of man and his reasoning.
Kate weren’t you once a member so why ask? Eight is the age of accountability.
To commit sin is to willfully disobey God’s commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17)
Three views of the nature of man held by the early Orthodox Christian church and how those views developed into what you accept today in the modern church.
Augustinian – man is spiritually dead;
Pelagianism – man is spiritually well at birth and chooses his own destiny; and
semi-Pelagianism – man is spiritually sick and only needs the help of a higher power to assist him in his recovery.
From approximately the Fifth to the Fourteenth century, most of Europe lay under feudalism and the pervasive civil influence and ecclesiastical control of the Roman Catholic Church with its Semi-Pelagian doctrine. The Bible was tenaciously controlled by Roman Catholic monks, priests, bishops, etc., thereby keeping church members as well as the general populace ignorant regarding the Bible’s contents. The medieval period has commonly been called the Dark Ages – as if the light of civilization had been unceremoniously snuffed out and was generally characterized by ignorance, immorality, and barbarism. Almost every true doctrine of the Bible was either perverted or lost. (Excerpted from Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia, Copyright © 1993, 1994 Compton’s NewMedia, Inc.)
Does a baby, infant or even a small child understand completely what is good and what is bad, of course not, only by the training of ones parents and as we know a lot of parents do this poorly.
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Helen,
I don’t think you and I are talking about the same thing here. I’m talking about the Fall and sin being brought into the world through that. We are all sinners because of this. You are talking about “physical” sin. I have already said above that I don’t believe babies physically sin. They are however, born into this fallen world with a sin nature. All babies grow up and sin. We all do it. I have asked you a few times now, if babies are not born with a sin nature, when does this nature to sin happen? When is it given to them?
“Does a baby, infant or even a small child understand completely what is good and what is bad, of course not, only by the training of ones parents and as we know a lot of parents do this poorly.”
Are you claiming that if parents did a better job at raising their kids then those kids wouldn’t sin? Bottom line is we are all in need of a Savior. I believe even babies need the Savior. They are after all human. Maybe they haven’t committed adultery or killed someone, but Christ himself says that “No one comes to the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. So you see, even if a baby dies in infancy, they still need the Savior to enter Heaven.
Dear Helen,
Two years ago, I received a Bible study on 1 Peter 1:23. (What an amazing verse.) The application notes for this verse speak extensively about man’s sin nature. It helped me to better understand. The study was sent me by Campus Crusade for Christ.
As I read this thread, I remembered the study, and thought its insights might be helpful here. I offer an extract of the study to you, Helen, for your consideration. Thanks.
Bible Study
========
… Man cannot ignore the fact of sin. Man is the product of what he is — a sinner. The cause of the sin problem must be changed, not the effect. The effect is that man sins. Man may reform himself and eliminate a few sins but this will not satisfy the holy demands of God. Other sins will crop up in his life.
The cause of the problem is man’s nature, therefore, man himself must be changed. We cannot change our disposition without changing our nature. For our nature to be changed we must be born again. Man cannot change what he is. He may switch behavior patterns but his nature remains the same. Only God can make him a new man.
If you have never been born twice, you cannot go to heaven. Even with your good record or religion, God will bar you from the gates of heaven. Heaven is a place for those born twice, once physically and the second time spiritually.
A person is born again when he believes,
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him,” (1 John 5:1)
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Bible Study
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This is not social, religious, moral or intellectual change. This is spiritual rebirth, a radical new beginning of the soul, mind and character.
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:5)
Generation is one birth, regeneration is two births. This is more than reformation. The old illustration of a clean pig returning to the mud at the first opportunity applies here. Many may clean up their lives but their basic nature will determine the tenure of their lives.
The fish and the bird have two spheres of nature. The pig and the lamb are opposites in nature. The person who is born again has a different nature than he who is not. The person who is born again has an exalted nature, God’s nature (2 Peter 1:4). The person who never accepts Christ as his Savior only occupies transient life. That life is only comprised of time or as this passage says, “corruptible.” If we try to experience the love of verse 22 without spiritual birth of verse 23 we will strain ourselves.
Some say the only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that one attends church and the other does not. The Bible says the difference is whether one is born spiritually or not. We do not perceive spiritual birth by religious talk. Being born again is not more religion. The change is much deeper than superficial religion, it is a change of nature.
Young children can’t have faith? Jesus said to let the children come unto Him, and he rebuked His disciples for trying to stop people from brining their children for Him to bless them. Why would Jesus do that if they have no need for Him and are perfect on their own?? Jesus even tells us that we should have faith as a child. In other words, they have a faith we should emulate!! Hmmm, seems to me all the assumptions about children not needing a savior and not being capable of faith are disproven by Scripture.
Now, show me the Scripture that says infants cannot have faith and have no need of a Savior.
Faith, that the sun will rise, that mom and dad will be there in the morning, faith that a meal will be prepared and she/he will eat again and again. Faith that a little child has is not the same faith that a believer (Christian) must come to terms with.
“Show me the Scripture that says infants cannot have faith and have no need of a Savior”
It may not be scripture but where does it say they understand what faith is? When children begin to understand that their personal choices – are what bring them either happiness or sadness in llife, they will come to have faith that following the plan that Jesus wants them to – will always bring them happiness and peace.
From what I understand and what I have read (at work so I can’t reference it right now) children are not ‘perfect’ as in they have no sin, but they are innocent because they do not comprehend what sin is. Because of this they have been covered by the Atonement of Jesus until they have reached the age of 8 years old; why this age I don’t know, but it was what was given in revelation to a prophet of God. This allows them to be left alone by Satan and his minions throughout their young life as they are being taught what is right from wrong. After they turn 8, then Satan and his minions are allowed to tempt them.
This being said, if they are brought up in an environment where some things that are against God’s commands are seen as ‘correct’ in the eyes of the populace (eg murder, rape, etc) then they are still innocent of God’s and have not sinned until someone comes along and teaches them the truth. For historical examples there are the Huns, the Mongols under the Khans, the Vikings, etc. These civilisations did not know God and thought killing people (especially the enemy) was a great sport. The children were indoctrinated into this lifestyle. So these children were innocent of the command ‘Thou shalt not kill’, and stayed that way unless someone taught them otherwise.
That is why the Lamanites in the BoM were said to be ‘better’ than the Nephites as they were brought up in a society that did not preach God but taught that murder was OK; while the Nephites were taught about God and His commands.
In trying to keep up with this blogs reasoning It only seems to raise doubts about pre-existence and any ideas of understanding it. People throw out ideas that aren’t related to it.
Kate
did you read any of Ed Deckers’ stuff?
Helen, It seems to me you are directly contradicting the words of Jesus. I will have to go with Jesus: “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:3-4
Mark 13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
Bring your children to Jesus and give them his gifts and blessings. They need a Savior.
We are to bring our children to Jesus, teaching them His Word and receiving His blessings – they will have faith and be saved. Romans 10:17 “Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the Word of Christ.” So we center our faith on God’s Word – for by that means He gives us faith. The Word of God is to be taught to our children, we are to bring them to Jesus to apply His Word to them, and the simple faith they show… we are to have faith like that. Simple trust in our Savior for eternal life with God.
Clyde,
No I haven’t read any of Ed Decker’s stuff, who is Ed Decker and why do you ask? Just curious.
Helen,
“It may not be in scripture…”
You have said this before, and it pretty much says it all. I won’t address the other half of this statement because I believe others have explained it to you.
So Kate, are you sitting out on this one by straddling the fence? Can you imagine that someone like Rick B. actually believes infants sin, it is their sin nature. Rick totally lacks any understanding of Gods plan of Salvation and I repeat what was expressed by Ralph, “they are innocent because they do not comprehend what sin is”.
God cannot judge them as sinner, why? because they are innocent before Him. The are as pure as the driven snow and without sin, they do not understand what Faith in our Lord and Savior has to do with confession and repentance.
The Psalmist wrote, “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Ps. 127:3).
The Savior gave the ever-familiar plea, “Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Mark 10:14).
When His disciples asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? … Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, … Whosoever … shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me” (Matt. 18:1–5).
Then came this warning: “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matt. 18:6).
Helen,
Why do you say I’m straddling the fence? I’ve laid it all out there for you. You are choosing not to listen. I don’t believe I will answer anymore of your questions until you answer mine. If babies are not born with a sin nature, when does this nature to sin happen? When is it given to them?
If babies aren’t in need of the Savior then why did Jesus himself say that “no one comes to the Father but by me?” Why did he say that “ALL fall short of the Glory of God?”
Helen – If the babies are perfect – without sin or sin nature – why did Jesus invite them to come to Him and be blessed. Jesus gives forgiveness and life, and if they are without a sin nature, they need no forgiveness and already have eternal life. If what you believe is true, Jesus should have commended His followers for forbidding children and asked that only those of accountable age come to Him, the little ones have no need.
This makes me ponder – does the LDS Church only do baptism for the dead for those who are over the age of 8 when they die? Those under 8, according to LDS belief, must go straight to godhood, being without sin, they achieve their deification immediately upon death. However, once that 8th birthday hits, well then they have a boatload of sin to work off, must show their obedience and get baptized, receive their endowment, married in the temple for all eternity, follow all the rules and then they might work their way to ruling their own planet and populating it with their own children who will worship them for all eternity.
Alternately, if Christianity is true – Jesus died for all since all fall short and are sinners. He makes His grace and blessing available to even small wee little children – He invites them to come unto Him! Those small children who were touched and blessed by the incarnate God surely were brought to faith being in the presence of God Himself. Jesus even says they have faith.
OK so I was thinking. As a Mormon, if I wasn’t a sinner from birth to age 8, and if I wasn’t to be held accountable for those sins, then why at 8 did I have to go to a bishop’s interview and why did he ask me if I had committed any sins such as telling a lie to my mom, or had I ever stolen anything, etc. Why did I have to confess those kinds of sins and be washed clean in the waters of baptism? Yet another contradiction in the Mormon religion………
4fivesolas,
Yes the children were brought to Jesus to be blessed, but no where does it say that it was for forgiveness. That is you putting your interpretation into the scripture. But I do agree that we must bring our children to the knowledge of Jesus and His word. That is part of our duty as parent.
You are correct when you said that those who die under the age of 8 will be in the CK after the resurrection. They had their time on this earth which was given to them by God so they too can enjoy the ultimate reward that God gives to His own in the eternities.
Kate,
Children under 8 do need a Saviour. They are born with ‘human nature’ and thus make mistakes and do the wrong thing, but the power to tempt them has been taken from Satan until they are 8 years old to give them time to learn good from bad. Thus they do err but they are innocents (ie having no sin), not knowing good from evil.
As far as baptism goes, on the LDS web site it states that it has a number of purposes – ”It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; it is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost.” In the case of 8 year olds, the main purposes are the last 2, whereas an adult convert its all 3. But the interview for an 8 year old is most likely to determine their understanding as I have known a bishop to delay a baptism because the child did not have enough ‘background knowledge’.
Sorry Kate,
I am at work and running around with some time trials so I forgot to explain that the reason that Satan has no power over them to tempt them is through Jesus Atonement, and through this only. Without the Atonement Satan would have power over them. So without being tempted by Satan, they are not sinning but they do, as I said, do the wrong thing and make mistakes/errors. All of which are covered by Jesus Atonement automatically without the need for repentance as we adults need to do if we sin.
Kate, not sure about this but where does it say that new born babies are born with a “sin nature”?
Ralph,
Jesus says for us to have faith as one of these small children. We receive forgiveness by faith. So yes, the children received forgiveness from Jesus, since that is how we receive it – by faith.
Ralph, Helen,
Research has been recently done that shows babies as young as 5 months old knowing right from wrong. In other words, this study would lend support to the idea that when a baby does something naughty like take a toy, or being selfish, etc. they understand the difference between right and wrong, and show shame when corrected:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275574/Babies-know-difference-good-evil-months-study-reveals.html
I would also draw a correlation to my faith (based on this research) that young children need to hear of the Savior and the forgiveness He gives them – even if they cannot yet talk. We cannot really gauge at this young age how much they comprehend or understand Jesus’ love for them.
From this study, the age of accountability needs to be lowered to at least 5 months – young children recognize right and wrong.
Ralph said
None of this LDS doctrine is taught in the LDS standard works. So why bother having them at all? Then this is not taught in the Bible. Just to remind people, I did say Babies are sinners. The Bible tells us so. when Helen says we like to tell God how it is, or something to that effect, she has yet to state why the Bible says, Through Adam Sin entered and now we all are under the curse of sin and death. If were really telling God how it is as she claims, why is it in fact were really only saying what the Bible says? O-yea, she does not care what the Bible says.
Ralph, I really could see some LDS or maybe even a prophet some day really starting to push abortion in a sick way and justifiny it by saying, the children will get a straight ticket the CK, Not saying they will do that, just saying I could see them doing that. Then Ralph, if you say if people or little kids are not tempted when Satan is n ot around, so that means they are innocent, then you still have a problem. Read the Book of revelation. (Cont)
Cont,
Ralph, It tells us in revelation that Jesus will rule on earth for a thousand years, It says Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. This way people cannot blame the devil and say, The devil made me do it. Guess what, People will still sin and still need a savior.
“Research has been recently done that shows babies as young as 5 months old knowing right from wrong. In other words, this study would lend support to the idea that when a baby does something naughty like take a toy, or being selfish, etc. they understand the difference between right and wrong, and show shame when corrected”
Shaking my head in disbelief, and so you think that a new born baby understands what shame is? right from wrong? How about if a parent never corrects a child and just lets them do as they please, does this mean that those who are trained to understand right from wrong can become sinners but those who are not taught are still sinners? When is a child held responsible for their mistakes, their bad decisions?
So a child in some third world country is taught that Its ok to kill, instructed by parents that God is Good and everything done in His name is worthy of a Heavenly reward. What do you say to those who preach terrorism is “OK” and to strap a bomb and blow yourself up and others is Gods will.
Ralph,
I know this is the LDS teaching. I was LDS for 40 years. No where in the Bible does it say ANY of this. I am a Christian now. This is one topic that is new to me. I haven’t studied this and I am doing so now. Where in the LDS standard works is this written and if what you say is true about the reasons we are baptized, then why did my bishop ask me about my sins and have me repent of them before I was baptized at 8 years old?
Rick,
Could you give me some passages in the Bible about babies physically sinning? I’m so confused about this. I know babies are born with a sin nature because of the Fall of Adam, but I can not wrap my head around a newborn baby physically sinning and knowing he/she is sinning. Yes I can see it when they get a little older. I saw in my own little ones, selfishness, fibbing, temper tantrums, etc… but a newborn? I believe that babies need the Savior, even newborns because Jesus says “no one gets to the Father, but by me” and Romans says that “ALL fall short of the Glory of God” so I get that. Is it that newborns, because they are born with a sin nature, are capable of sin?
Yes Rick B. I think Kate is asking for scripture showing that babies are born with a sin nature. So am I.
Kate said
Correct me if I am wrong, But I honestly dont remember saying Babies Physically Sin, If I recall correctly Helen said I said that. What I remember saying is. Babies are born sinners, They have a sin nature, this is found in the Bible.
Their are many verses on Sin, But over all as I said, Babies are sinners born into sin. If they are born sinless as Helen claims, then she sadly and no real surprise cannot answer the question of, When does sin enter them? Then that means the question of, Why is it Jesus was able to lead a perfect and sinless life? If Jesus was born sinless and sin did not just enter him, then we all should be able to do that, but we cannot cannot because only Jesus was born sinless, we are not. Jesus was able to be born sinless becasue He did not have a human father get a women pregant, the Bible tells us, the holy spirit over shadowed Mary.
Helen that is not at all what I was asking. I have already said I understand that babies are born with a sin nature. It’s you who can’t show that they aren’t.
Rick,
Thanks for the info. I’m still doing research on this. I guess the question should not be whether or not a baby can physically sin, but rather that sin nature is in them. That makes more sense to me. I agree that if we were not born with a sin nature, we should be able to live a sinless life. Sin nature does not just magically enter us at a certain age.