The America That Mormon Prophets Never Foresaw

Joseph Smith made some crucial prophecies about the Second Coming that caused many other Mormon “authorities” to make additional ones, and voice the expectation that the United States would be destroyed as a nation, and Jesus would return by the end of the nineteenth century. On February 14, 1835 Smith called a meeting and said it was “being held because God commanded it by vision and by the Holy Spirit.” During that meeting Smith spoke of their trials at Zion’s Camp and added,

“God had not designed all this for nothing, but he had it in remembrance yet, and those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, it was the Will of God, that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last times, or the coming of the Lord which was nigh, even fifty six years, should wind up the scene.”

Several men were blessed by Joseph and the three witnesses, including Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball, that they would “see the Saviour come and stand on the Earth with power and great glory,” and “live until the gathering was accomplished.” Brigham Young was blessed to “go forth and gather the Elect preparatory to the great day of the coming of the Lord” (Minutes, Kirtland, Ohio, 14–15 Feb. 1835; handwriting of Warren Cowdery; in Minute Book 1, pp. 147–154; CHL.).

As early as 1831 Lyman Wight, while being ordained to the priesthood by Joseph Smith, prophecied (while Smith’s hands were still upon his head) “that there were some in this congregation that should live until the Savior shoud decend from heaven, with a Shout, with all the holy angels with him.” (Book of John Whitmer, 69–71.)

Just two years before, Smith prophesied (again by way of commandment) that “by the authority of Jesus Christ” that “not many years shall pass away” before the wicked “of this generation” will be swept from off the face of the land and the Lost Ten Tribes will be gathered to Missouri, and that “there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled.” He exhorts all to “flee to Zion, before the “overflowing scourge overtake you” (History of the Church, 1:315-316).

In 1843 Smith stated that “were I going to prophecy I would prophecy the end will not come in 1844 or 5 or 6 or 40 years more there are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes” (Joseph Smith Diary, April 6, 1843, see also, History of the Church, 5:336).

Elaborating on the above, Smith added,

“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written—the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. Then read the 14th chapter of Revelation, 6th and 7th verses—‘And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven…’ And Hosea, 6th chapter, After two days, etc.,—2,520 years; which brings it to 1890. The coming of the Son of Man never will be–never can be till the judgments spoken of for this hour are poured out: which judgments are commenced. Paul says, ‘Ye are the children of the light, and not of the darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief in the night.’ It is not the design of the Almighty to come upon the earth and crush it and grind it to powder, but he will reveal it to His servants the prophets. (History of the Church 5:336-337, April 6, 1843; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 286; Joseph Smith was born Dec. 23, 1805, which means the Second Coming would take place after Dec. 23 1890.)

Smith gives us the math and the date, confident that God had “revealed it” to his “prophets.” In the same year, he again said,

“I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left…” (History of the Church, 5:394)

Orson Hyde, convinced of the coming apocalypse, declared that the gospel had been preached to the world, and that the “saints” were being gathered to Utah, to escape it:

“These missionaries and labourers are now called home. The Lord says, ‘It is enough.’ ‘Come out of her, my people,’ is now the voice of God to his servants in every land and nation. The vials of his wrath cannot be poured out until you, like Lot, flee from the countries doomed to feel the vengeance of God. To you, my faithful brethren abroad, the Spirit of Christ has often whispered, during the last six months, ‘Go home—go home.’ Your guardian angels have said it to you in dreams and in visions, and we expect to see you come. Scores have already arrived. God bless them and you too, if you listen to the whisperings of that voice that speaks truth to the heart.

“What now remains to be done? Your testimony is borne—your words have gone into all the earth. Read in the Book of Covenants, page 102, and you will find the answer in part—‘After your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people; for after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her; and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand. And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds; and all things shall be in commotion; and surely men’s hearts shall fail them, for fear shall come upon all. people,’&c.

“Again, the sign gives in the Book of Mormon, showing when the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled and they abandoned to the judgments and wrath of Almighty God, and showing also when the covenants of the Father with the house of Israel shall be fulfilled, is this important declaration—‘I will take the fulness of my Gospel from among the Gentiles,’&c. It might be considered treason to quote further. With our Elders and missionaries comes the fulness of the Gospel from among the Gentiles, who, like the leaky ship, are abandoned to the mercy of the winds and the waves.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 16)

Why does Orson Hyde speak of treason? Because they believed that the United States was to be broken up and Brigham Young would be installed as President (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 219). In 1857, Wilford Woodruff records Brigham Young saying about then President Buchanan, “I should not wonder if we heard he was dead soon” (Wilford Woodruff Journal, Vol. 5, p. 72).

Wilford Woodruff referred to himself as a “Prophetic Historian” (Journal, Vol. 5, p. 615), and wrote constantly about the end of the world. At the end of 1857 Woodruff writes,

“The Same God who inspired our Fathers to Esstablish a Free government said through the prophet Joseph Smith that if ever the Constitution of the United States or its principles were ever preserved it would have to be done by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints even the servants of God Holding the Holy priesthood. That day has now Come& the day is dawning when we are Called to act. The Same God who has destroyed two Nations who have dwelt upon this Continent because of their iniquity, has also said that all other Nations who should occupy this Continent when they were ripened in iniquity should in like manner be Cut off from the earth and not left to pollute the Land of Joseph or the Land of Zion. I do not know what Els our Nation can do in order to fill up their Cup of iniquity than what they have done and are doing. I do not know of any other key [p.142] the United States Can turn to seal fast their Condemnation than the Exertions which they are makeing to destroy the Saints of God for their religion. I am in For the measure because it is right.” (Wilford Woodruff Journal, Vol. 5, pp. 141-142, original spelling retained in all quotes)

A few pages later, Woodruff adds,

“1857 will be the year on histories page which will be dated the Commencement of the downfall of the United States.” He then states, “the Judgments of God will now begin to rest more fully upon that Nation and will be increased upon them year by year untill they are broaken up and wasted away from under Heaven and Cease to become a Nation. And this Calamity will begin to Come spedily upon them. And they will be visited with thunder, lightning, storm, whirl winds Earthquakes floods, pestilence plagues, war and Devouring fire and the wicked will slay the wicked untill the Nation is wasted away and broaken up” (Wilford Woodruff Journal, Vol. 5, p. 145).

In 1838, Parley P. Pratt would prophecy that the Book of Mormon foretells this very thing, and that if the nation was not broken up within fifty years, the Book of Mormon was false:

“I will state as a prophecy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false.” (Parley P. Pratt, MORMONISM UNVEILED, Zion’s Watchman Unmasked, AND ITS EDITOR MR. L. R. SUNDERLAND, EXPOSED: TRUTH VINDICATED: THE DEVIL MAD, AND PRIESTCRAFT IN DANGER! by P. P. PRATT, NEW YORK, Printed for the Publisher, 1838, pp. 15-16)

Having been charged with being “vague” and “indefinite,” Pratt writes that he hopes with the giving of this prophecy that critics “will no more complain of the jargon of the Mormon Prophets being unintelligible or indefinite” (Pratt, op. cited above).

There are many more such “prophecies” by Mormon “prophets, seers & revelators” that all attest to the fact that those born in Joseph Smith’s time, would live to see the Second Coming, that the United States would be swiftly destroyed, and that the “Mormon Elders” would step up and “save the Constitution.” The America that Mormon “prophets” foresaw however, is not the America that has come to be, and with a Mormon being seriously considered as the next President of the United States, it may be well to take heed of their failed vision of America from the not too distant past.

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26 Responses to The America That Mormon Prophets Never Foresaw

  1. Mike R says:

    Grindael, great job. You have laid out a small sample of why we should not take Mormon
    leaders claims of “knowing the mind and will of God ” too seriously; but also you remind us
    of how relevant this thread is for us today —- Matt 24:11. This behavior by those who claim
    exclusive insight from God to reveal some “hidden truths” is not just confined to Mormon
    leaders, many other “christian” prognosticators have likewise been guilty of misleading people
    as this summer a well known radio “pastor ” predicted some serious world events to take place.
    What I also found interesting in your article is how Orson Hyde felt that the gospel HAD been
    preached to the world etc. If what was being preached by Mormons up to this time was called
    the gospel, then what was the gospel that Mormons preached after all these predictions failed
    to materialize ? Is there a confusion going on here with what their gospel actually is ? The last
    thing we need is so-called prophets and apostles traveling all over the country preaching their
    own “gospel” . May we be like the Bereans ( Acts 17) , who evaluated anyone’s preaching by the
    scriptures. May we hold on to sound doctrine— 1Tim 4:6 ; 2Tim :15-19 .
    Thanks again Grindael.

  2. Rick B says:

    I am going to claim to be a prophet and say, I predict that many of the mormons who read this post will first throw the Bible under the bus and claim the Bible is filled with failed prophecy’s. That is how they will handle this topic. Then I will predict that many will either not reply to this topic as is the norm with many strong topics that expose the LDS as false. And I will predict also if LDS read this they may say, well we will not mention the Bible being “flawed” so we can come back later and say, Rick was wrong. See that is what false prophets do, they find a way to give them selves an “Out” if nothing happens and they put it back on the People.

  3. grindael says:

    If any of you can get a hold of Wilford Woodruff’s Journals, I would highly recommend reading them. This collection, found here for a modest $90.00, ( ) is full of great resources and many diaries and journals that gives one a unique perspective into early Mormonism.

    The years between 1857-1865 are of particular interest, for with the events of the “Mormon War”, and the Civil War looming, these men, had all kinds of things to say about the nation, assuring the “saints” and themselves that they indeed were inspired by God to declare the things they did. In that same piece of journal history that I quoted above, Woodruff writes,

    “It does not require any argumet with this body of men [U.S. Continental Congress] to Convince them what Course to persue. What Causes this difference? They were inspired by the Lord to step forth to esstablish an Independant Government in America, but this body of Men [Mormon Legislative Council or “Shadow Government”] are far more inspired by the same God to esstablish the Kingdom of God upon the Earth and lay a foundation for the Liberty and salvation of our Children and to lift up a Standard for the oppressed of all nations. Our path is marked out as plain to our view as is our broad street or the missippi River to the natural Eye.” right. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 5, p. 142)

    This “plain path” was the South winning the Civil War, the “saints” being established in Utah as an “independent Kingdom”, the U.S. destroying itself, and the Mormon Elders with Brigham Young stepping in to “save” the nation. Though it was “clear” to them, (being “prophets” and all) this is clearly not what really happened. _johnny

  4. Kate says:

    I actually think that Mormons will put this into the “doesn’t count” file because they only follow the living prophet. The world ending was simply Joseph Smith’s “opinion.” This seems to be the norm where past prophets are concerned. Of course all the faith promoting stuff that was said by past prophets is absolutely correct. Not the weird or outlandish stuff though. Hmmm.

    “The Same God who inspired our Fathers to Esstablish a Free government said through the prophet Joseph Smith that if ever the Constitution of the United States or its principles were ever preserved it would have to be done by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints even the servants of God Holding the Holy priesthood.”

    I wonder if this is where the LDS get the idea that Mitt Romney needs to become President. To save our country and Constitution?

  5. Dale says:

    I agree with Kate. It’s very strange how the LDS will champion the words of their prophets, but if something is strange or goes against current doctrine, it’s quickly dismissed as irrelevant.

    Interestingly enough, this practice of continuing to believe in prophets/groups who give failed prophecies isn’t limited to the LDS. From what I understand both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Seveth-Day Adventist have failed end-time prophecies as well. Once the prophecy fails, a new excuse is given.

    With Joseph Smith, this is just another feather in the hat of his suspicious behavior that goes unrecognized.

  6. grindael says:


    I had a conversation with some Mormons about that Parley P. Pratt prophecy and they did exactly what you describe. Funny though, every single prophecy from the Bible that they tried to debunk as being unfulfilled or in some cases false (which I still find hard to believe), was hailed as “fulfilled” by They quoted from atheist sites to try and bolster their claims, and denigrated the Bible so much, that I had a hard time believing that I was speaking to people claiming to be Christians.

    It is a hard thing to claim to be a prophet. If you want to make such claims, you better have the means to back it up. By their own writings, these Mormons have condemned themselves; their truth-claims simply cannot stand up to scrutiny. _johnny

  7. Mike R says:

    Reliable guides ? Years ago my brother worked as a guide and wrangler for an outfitter which
    offered hunting trips in the northern Rockies . This took place in remote area and was by
    horseback . His boss said that sometimes he’ll have to put up with obnoxious clients . The one
    thing he was told never to resort to with these people was to tell them he would get them lost
    if they did’nt cease their attitudes etc. Seems that the biggest fear hunters on these trips had was
    that of getting lost and possibly dying . My brother’s boss said that these men have to be able to
    have confidence in my brother’s ability as a guide to safely get them to base camp. We can all
    identify with such trust in someones claimed ability, whether trust in a doctor to be a reliable
    surgeon or perhaps in believing a car salesman who advertises dependable cars. Unfortunately
    some people have become victims to a doctor’s error , a doctor with a track record of failures
    unknown to the victim ; likewise there have been people hurt through buying a vehicle with
    a track record of safety flaws unpublished by the manufacturer . These resulted in physical
    death to sincere people. But what about spiritual guides , trusting religious leaders ? Jesus says
    to test such guides, those who claim to speak for God . Mormon leaders claim to be reliable
    spiritual guides. Their claim is clear: ” You can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings
    reflect the will of the Lord…” [ True to the Faith , p129]. Yet what Grindael has shared is but a
    small sample of their track record. Matt7:15

  8. 4fivesolas says:

    It is the same prophet Joseph Smith who falsely prophesied the return of Christ in the 1800’s who also wrote the Book of Mormon. Someone who has been shown to give false testimony of God should not and cannot be trusted in any revelation. This is one reason among many why I reject the BOM and Mormonism.
    Joseph Smith wrote in the spirit of his age – a time when people expected the soon return of Christ (I think this may be true of every generation), when dietary rules were popular (word of wisdom), and when the future of the U.S. seemed uncertain (thus his prophesies). Joseph Smith could not see the future, he wrote and spoke out of his own flawed reasoning and attributed it falsely to God. Joseph Smith used his role of “prophet” to try an clarify issues such as baptism (I remember first reading this passage in the BOM and realizing how false and transparent Joseph Smith seemed with his precise prescription he wrote up on the correct mode of baptism). The Mormon prophets repeatedly have shown themselves untrustworthy.
    There is One we can trust – the Lord Jesus Christ established his Church and said that Satan would never overcome it – and then He sent the Holy Spirit to sustain His Church. There is no need for a restoration, and a character like Joseph Smith has shown he will certainly not lead you into truth.

  9. SR says:

    I had a conversation with a Mormon friend about this sort of thing, in conjunction with the Deuteronomy verses about knowing a false prophet — the one that says that any prophet who prophesies something that doesn’t come to pass is a false prophet. My friend completely sidestepped the issue in both cases. One of the JS prophecies I brought up was the one above and the other was the Civil War prophecy. Both are black and white (to me) and clearly state that JS said, this will happen at this time. And neither did. She basically told me that he didn’t give exact dates and because he said “was nigh” didn’t mean it was in his lifetime, etc. And she said the Civil War one wasn’t a prophecy because the “thus saith the Lord” or whatever he used (I don’t have it in front of me) was referring to something earlier on that DID happen and not to the Civil Ward stuff which was later and just his “opinion” or “best guess.” It completely boggles my mind how they can explain things like this away. She also told me that faith isn’t logical or based in fact, that’s why it’s faith. I couldn’t even believe it.

  10. Rick B says:

    If you notice that when it comes to topics like this, the Mormons for the most part never reply. Honestly how can they? They know the prophets got it wrong, so first they tend to throw the Bible under the Bus, They really cannot argue with topics like this, thats why we never see replys from them. But then take a topic like, JS killed 3 people in jail and they will argue that tooth and nail.

    Sadly it does not effect salvation or prove God’s word True or false if JS killed someone or not, or if they sing praise to the man in their hyms. Who cares? Yet they argue those things to the death. The topics that prove they have a false prophets and sadly show they dont know Jesus and will spend eternity apart from Him as a result, they tend to remain silent on them. But honestly how can you refute the facts, the other topics are simply debate as nothing more than mere opinion.

  11. Mike R says:

    SR, welcome. Don’t let this experience you mentioned stop you from ministering to those
    who follow false prophets. Despite the excuses and attitude your friend exhibited your love
    and witness for Jesus can have a significant impact on her life, the Holy Spirit can see to that .
    So keep on the firing line !

  12. Mike R says:

    While Mormon authorities have seemed to be gun-shy in recent years in declaring specific dates
    with events to transpire therein ( this can happen when one shoots himself in the foot to
    often ) there still remains serious questions about these men. Future predictions have seemed
    to all but ceased from God’s spokesmen in Salt Lake City , but one has to wonder about the
    connection between the prophetic predictions dispensed by these men and other important
    teachings they offer, teachings concerning the gospel and how a person receives eternal life
    not to mention the teachings on who the God is that these men claim to be getting their
    revelations from , have Mormon authorities been faithful in relaying correct information on
    these issues ? The good that can come out of examining the track record of Mormon authorities
    concerning their odd prophetic predictions it is that people will step back and ask
    themselves why they should trust these modern-day prophets to be reliable guides in other
    spiritual issues, have these men been inconsistent, erratic, in other areas of importance ?

  13. Rick B says:

    I keep saying this over and over but will say it again in case their are people that missed it before.

    I notice a serious lack of replies from Mormons over topics like this, yet the mormons are never short on telling us how wrong we are. How can you honestly tell us we have no clue and are wrong about Mormonism, but yet never answer the questions of how or why did your prophet(s) get so much so wrong.

    Then it leads to, where is the Love of Christ? You tell us we are wrong, but offer no evidence of how we are wrong, or and answers that will set us free. How is that being Christ like? We claim Mormons follow a man not Jesus, Mormons Claim they follow Jesus and not a man, But unlike Jesus Men dodge and cover up things, This is also what Mormons do, so it seems to me they follow a man and not Jesus since the Mormons example lays this out to be true.

  14. Brian says:

    Very fine research you have shared with us, Johnny. Thanks.

    Some in this forum have made an observation about our LDS friends. When presented with information similar to what Johnny has shared, they will react in various ways. In almost any way to avoid the following conclusion: prophesying falsely makes one a false prophet.

    Why the avoidance? If an LDS person looses modern-day prophets, with what are they left? I think the conclusion drawn would have to be they have nothing, and are lost. Think for a moment how devastating that would be.

    We have many fine LDS people who visit this forum. Some like to observe; others observe and write. Perhaps some are reading this message right now. They have been told they were special; worthy. They were told by men they were righteous. Yet God proclaimed long ago that there is none righteous (Romans 3:10). Think what that means. The word judgment takes on an altogether different cast. Do you wonder how you will fare? You need not wonder; the verdict is already in. You are “condemned already” (John 3:17-18).

    The Good News is that God entered his own creation. He was born in a lowly stable. He lived a perfect life. He alone is righteous. His righteousness he offers as a gift to all who will receive it (Romans 5:17).

    Want to trade in religion for a life-giving relationship with God? Start reading the gospel of John. Read a little each day. Ask God to reveal himself in the pages of his word. Ask God to reveal his love and promises and faithfulness to you.

  15. TJayT says:

    I have accepted Rick B’s challenge to try and defend the prophecies the Grindael has listed for us. I’ll do my best, but I want everyone to know up front that I’m no expert on Lds history or defense, and I’m far from smart or eloquent. And with that, here goes nothing…

    Personally,, I don’t believe that men who aren’t the actual Prophet can making grand sweeping prophecies that don’t relate to the church itself, and so I don’t think the last three “prophecies” hold any weight (Only PP’s could even come close to being called a prophecy the way I read them anyway). So I’ll be dealing only with Joseph Smith’s comments. As I see it the Prophesies fall into or between three categories; The second coming, the end of the country, and gatherings.

    The prophecies of the Jesus coming on February 14, 1835 and April 6, 1843 reflect back onto an earlier revelation that has been canonized in Lds scripture:

    14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
    15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
    16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
    17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time. (D&C 130: 14-17)

    To me it seems pretty clear that JS didn’t have a clue what this meant, other then that Christ wouldn’t come until after 1890. (cont)

  16. TJayT says:

    (cont)He did his best to make this crystal clear less then a month before the April 6th comment:

    I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.

    Seeing that I’ve never heard of a mass uproar from saints when Jesus didn’t come in 1890 I can only assume that most took these words to heart.

    When you read the Blessings given to Brigham Young, Heber C Kimble and Lyman Johnson (I’m assuming Grindael meant Johnson and not Wight since he was ordained with BY and HK. Easy mistake, from what little research I did Wight was far more important in the Lds movement then Johnson) it reminds me of a blessing I have received that uses almost the same language about seeing Christ. I in no way expect the Second Coming in my lifetime (though I do my best to live like it will). It simply means that if I “endure to the end” then I’ll be with those that come with Christ in the last days. I imagine this is what was meant with these men. Also BY and LJ definitely lived to see the gathering of saints, both into Missouri and then Utah, even if LJ had left the church by that point. (cont)

  17. TJayT says:

    (cont)The entire quote about the sweeping of the wicked and ten tribes reads as follows:

    And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, “Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.” Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant, and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled. Remember these things; call upon the Lord while He is near, and seek Him while He may be found, is the exhortation of your unworthy servant.

    There are three things here, 1: Destruction of wicked. 2: The preparation for the return of the 10 tribes. 3 A gathering and fleeing of Zion. (cont)

  18. TJayT says:

    (Forgive the above for being bold, it should have been in blockquote.)

    (cont)Part one the Saints of the day believed was fulfilled by the US Civil War. I see no need to argue with them since they are the ones that heard the prophecy and then lived through the events. Part two just means the way is being prepared for the return of the ten tribes, not that it must happen in these people‘s lifetime. And again, the gathering of saints in Missouri and there subsequent running to Utah did indeed keep them from feeling most of the horror that was the Civil War.

    There are several schools of thought on the May 6th 1843 quote about US redress. I personal believe that President Polk paid a sufficient redress by asking for there help in the Mexican-American War (both to show there patriotism to America and giving them money that helped get the saint to Utah) as well as guaranteeing safe travel to Utah. With the price paid the Prophecy was fulfilled.

    That’s what I’ve got right now. Thanks for listening to little old me, and hope this helps clear up at least the Lds viewpoint on these quotes.

    A question to those here, if you don’t mind. What do you make of the so called “false prophecies” of Jesus in the bible? I don’t bring this up to change the subject or cast doubt on the bible. I am just curious about what Mainstream Christians have to say about them since we’re talking about the subject.

  19. Rick B says:

    TJayT said

    What do you make of the so called “false prophecies” of Jesus in the bible?

    I dont know any Christian that believe their are false prophecies in the Bible. So can you please tell us what prophecies you are talking about and how you believe they are failures? Thanks.

  20. TJayT says:

    RickB said

    So can you please tell us what prophecies you are talking about and how you believe they are failures?

    I don’t believe any prophecies from Christ where failures. I was referring to the belief held by many Non-Christians that Jesus and his apostles prophesied that his Second Coming would be within there lifetime. Most point to the parable of the fig tree and talk of the end of days in the Gospels and how at the end Jesus says “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.’ (Matthew 24: 25-34 Mark 13:26-30 Luke 21:27-32) They also say that since the high priest at Jesus’ trial didn’t live to see “…the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“ (Matthew 26: 63-64) that Jesus is a false prophet. There are also many scriptures that seem to show the apostles believed they lived in the end days and Jesus would be coming back in there lifetime. (Hebrews 1:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:11, Hebrews 10:24-25, 1 John 2:18, 1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31, etc).

    I have my own personal views on the subject, as does the Lds church I’m sure. I was simply wondering what the Christians here make of these verses?

  21. grindael says:


    So, just dismissing anything not by Smith is “irrelevant”? Nice dodge. Why are all the apostles of the church called, ordained and set apart as “prophets, seers, and revelators”. Just to have some grand title? I hope you are not that naive.

    You didn’t include an analysis of Smith’s further comments from the April 6th discourse, Which were:

    “were I going to prophecy I would prophecy the end will not come in 1844 or 5 or 6 or 40 years more there are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes” (Joseph Smith Diary, April 6, 1843, see also, History of the Church, 5:336)

    The “rising generation” that Smith spoke of is long gone, and he is a false prophet. And I did mean Lyman Wight, but from a different meeting, who prophesied, while Smith’s hands were on his head, that many present would live to see Christ return. (I’ve clarified this in the blog entry, thanks for catching that).

    But they did not mean some vague, endure to the end scenario. They meant people that were alive THEN would see Christ come before they died. There are too many references to this, to deny it.

    As for the Missouri prophecy, you must read more history, before making incomplete conclusions. Brigham Young (and subsequent authorities) have stated:

    “all the govornors & Presidents of the U.S.A Had rejected all our petitions from first to last. That when the Saints were driven from Illinois & perrish as it were on the Prairies then President Polk sends for a draft of 500 men to go into the Army. What for? That they might be wasted, [and we might be] entirely wasted away as A people.” (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 3, p. 240, July 28th, 1847).

  22. grindael says:

    “If the Brethren had not gone they would have [p.241] made war upon us & the Gov of Mo would have been ordered not to have let us Cross the Missouri & the raising of the Battalion was our temporal Salvation at the time & said Polk would be damned for this act & that He with many of the goverment men had a hand in the death of Joseph & Hyram & that they should be damned for these things & if they ever sent any men to interfere with us here they shall have there throats cut & sent to Hell. And with uplifted hand to Heaven swore by the Gods of Eternity that He would never cease His exhertion while He lived to make every preperation & avenge the blood of the Prophets & Saints.” (ibid)

    Does that sound like redress to you? As for the Return of the Ten Tribes, I’ll address that in another post. _johnny

  23. Rick B says:

    TJayT said

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.’ (Matthew 24: 25-34 Mark 13:26-30 Luke 21:27-32)

    Here is part of your problem, Your not quoting enough or reading enough. Take Mark 13:26-30 for example, You need to back up by a few verses and read for It says,

    Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    Jesus said, I told you all things, Then it says, After that Tribulation, So He is telling us about the things to come since the great Tribulation has not come yet.

    Read all of Matthew 24 and Luke 21, it also talks of the things to come that have not yet happened, so that is part of the problem, your taking only part of what it says.

    You quoted Matthew 26:63-64 and said

    They also say that since the high priest at Jesus’ trial didn’t live to see “…the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“ (Matthew 26: 63-64) that Jesus is a false prophet.

    Who is the (They also say) That you mentioned. The Bible did not say the High priest would live to See Jesus sitting on the Right hand of power. The Bible says,

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Jesus said, “Hereafter” He was referring to His second coming So this is not a false prophecy as you or some suggest.

  24. Mike R says:

    Mormonism was born in a revivalist atmosphere in upstate New York. Preachers speaking
    of the coming judgement of God , of Christ’s return , and the millenium was a common theme
    during this time and after. Joseph Smith , claiming God had hand picked him to reveal spiritual
    truths , joined in the fray . Those he mentored were not silent in reminding everyone of their
    authority of being annointed by Jesus to warn of impending events related to setting up God’s
    will on earth. Concerning the preaching of prominent early Mormon men like Oliver Cowdery ,
    Parley Pratt and others in 1830 : “…who were traveling through Ohio during their mission to
    the Lamanites , or Native Americans , thought to be remnants of Book of Mormon peoples.
    These four men bore an impressive testimony of the restoration of the New Testament church
    in nineteenth – century America . Comtemporary newspapers report that Oliver ‘ predicted the
    destruction of the world within a few years , that he expected to found a city of refuge , that he
    proclaimed that he and his associates were the only ones on earth qualified to administer in the
    name of Jesus and that they were going to gather and convert the Indians , who were the lost
    tribes of Israel . ‘ Here apocalyptic fervor joined with authoritarianism in the earliest
    Mormonism. ” [ In Sacred Loneliness , the Plural wives of Joseph Smith, p.206 ].
    This whole behavior by Mormon leaders brings up a question about the claimed exclusive
    authority of Mormon prophets and apostles to be the sole legal channel that God uses to
    dispense His important spiritual truths through to mankind, yet it appears that there was little

  25. Mike R says:

    to separate Mormons from non-Mormons in all this prophetic activity . The claim of being led
    by their prophetic insight , whether personal or corporate, has proven to be unreliable too often
    to be embraced as a safeguard against being misled . What we see in the counsel and lives of
    Mormon leaders subsequent to Joseph Smith seems no different than many non-Mormon
    religious leaders. The fact that Mormon leaders even embraced some very aberrant doctrines
    from some of the “abominable ” churches in their day [Blacks as inferior and un worthy for
    full gospel blessings, etc] , leads to the conclusion that Mormon prophets are not the one source
    for unpolluted spiritual guidance that they advertise to be. While recent Mormon authorities
    have been more silent on pronouncing future events that their former brethren , still they
    have resorted to copying those whom they consider to be blinded by the Devil , in some
    important issues. Up until the 1980’s did’nt Mormon owned businesses run ads for alcohol and
    tobacco, why ? Also , for some time those that worked as dealers in Las Vegas casinos were
    not allowed Temple recommends , however Mormon casino executives were . [according to
    the Las Vegas Review-Journal , Jan. 26-1987] . President Hinckley announced this new truth
    during a stop in Las Vegas. All this brings up the question of why should we follow the Mormon
    prophet ? Salvation is through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ . There’s no need for
    Mormon prophets and apostles. It’s all about Jesus, and His gospel of salvation is readily
    available in the New Testament for all to embrace.

  26. Rick B says:

    Where are you? Honestly I hope your gone because your searching hard into the facts and seeing for yourself the LDS church is a counterfeit and is full of false teachers and falls under Gal 1:8-9. I am praying your eyes are opended.

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