I’ve had more than a few Mormons ask about this, so I’d like to share the two basic evangelical views. While Jesus has a permanent human nature, between now and the Second Coming he either (1) has temporarily “exited this four-dimensional space-time continuum” or (2) is located somewhere in a place with spatial dimensions. Mormons tend to have a caricature of evangelicals as not believing in the physical resurrection, and may think of position 1 as proof of that. But in reality both views affirm that Jesus will permanently be “corporeally [bodily] present to his people” after the Second Coming.
The first view as articulated by William Lane Craig:
“So how should we conceive of Christ’s resurrection body today? Christ in his exalted state still has a human nature; he did not “enter back into God’s own existence.” But Christ has exited this four-dimensional space-time continuum. Therefore, perhaps we might say that his human nature does not now manifest itself corporeally. Compare a tuning fork which is plucked and begins to hum. If the vibrating fork is placed in a vacuum jar, though it continues to vibrate, it does not manifest itself by a humming noise because there is no medium to carry its vibrations. Similarly, Christ’s human nature, no longer immersed in spacetime, does not manifest itself as a body. But someday Christ will return and re-enter our four-dimensional space-time continuum, and then his body will become manifest. In the new heavens and the new earth Christ will be corporeally present to his people. Christ, then, has a human nature which is manifested as his physical resurrection body when he exists in a spatio-temporal universe.”
The second view as articulated by Wayne Grudem:
1. Christ Ascended to a Place. After Jesus’ resurrection, he was on earth for forty days (Acts 1:3), then he led them out to Bethany, just outside Jerusalem, and “lifting up his hands, he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven” (Luke 24:50–51).
A similar account is given by Luke in the opening section of Acts:
And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9–11)
These narratives describe an event that is clearly designed to show the disciples that Jesus went to a place. He did not suddenly disappear from them, never to be seen by them again, but gradually ascended as they were watching, and then a cloud (apparently the cloud of God’s glory) took him from their sight. But the angels immediately said that he would come back in the same way in which he had gone into heaven. The fact that Jesus had a resurrection body that was subject to spatial limitations (it could be at only one place at one time) means that Jesus went somewhere when he ascended into heaven.
It is surprising that even some evangelical theologians hesitate to affirm that heaven is a place or that Jesus ascended to a definite location somewhere in the space-time universe. Admittedly we cannot now see where Jesus is, but that is not because he passed into some ethereal “state of being” that has no location at all in the space-time universe, but rather because our eyes are unable to see the unseen spiritual world that exists all around us. There are angels around us, but we simply cannot see them because our eyes do not have that capacity: Elisha was surrounded by an army of angels and chariots of fire protecting him from the Syrians at Dothan, but Elisha’s servant was not able to see those angels until God opened his eyes so that he could see things that existed in that spiritual dimension (2 Kings 6:17). Similarly, when Stephen was dying, God gave him a special ability to see the world that is now hidden from our eyes, for he “gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God” ’ (Acts 7:55–56). And Jesus himself said, “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also” (John 14:2–3).
Of course we cannot now say exactly where heaven is. Scripture often pictures people as ascending up into heaven (as Jesus did, and Elijah) or coming down from heaven (as the angels in Jacob’s dream, Gen. 28:12), so we are justified in thinking of heaven as somewhere “above” the earth. Admittedly the earth is round and it rotates, so where heaven is we are simply unable to say more precisely—Scripture does not tell us. But the repeated emphasis on the fact that Jesus went somewhere (as did Elijah, 2 Kings 2:11), and the fact that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God (Rev. 21:2), all indicate that there is clearly a localization of heaven in the space-time universe. Those who do not believe in Scripture may scoff at such an idea and wonder how it can be so, just as the first Russian cosmonaut who came back from space and declared that he did not see God or heaven anywhere, but that simply points to the blindness of their eyes toward the unseen spiritual world; it does not indicate that heaven does not exist in a certain place. In fact, the ascension of Jesus into heaven is designed to teach us that heaven does exist as a place in the space-time universe.
To be honest, this isn’t something I spend much time thinking about. I recognize that Jesus has a resurrected body and that he’s sitting at the right hand of the Father.
“And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3).
“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary, and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.” (Hebrews 8:1-2)
Acts 7:55-56 says, “But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’
I’ve always thought that what Stephen saw was interesting in that he said he saw Jesus “standing”. It might not be any big deal and perhaps “sitting” at the right hand of the Father is a metaphor regarding His position in the Godhead.
None-the-less, the Bible is quite clear that Jesus has a resurrected body and that the dead will be raised.
Falcon, ditto !
(I’d like to share the two basic evangelical views)
Here we have a good example of why I started to look for God’s true Church on earth when I was in high school. My denomination followed one set of the traditions of men and I had friends who were in other denominations that followed other traditions of men.
I now belong to God’s true Church, a Church that does not add the traditions of men to God’s word in the Bible.
Since I do not follow the proper traditions of men, I am said to not be a Christian by those who place traditions of men between themselves and the Bible.
fred
Excellent fred!
I would very much appreciate you sharing with us why you have come to understand the Salt Lake City brand of Mormonism as God’s one true church. I am serious about this. Please indicate what the SLC denomination of Mormonism has that allows you to proclaim it as “God’s one true church”. It appears to me that all of the sects of Mormonism are following the precepts of men, supposing that these precepts (of men) have come from God.
I’m also interested in what edition of the BoM you have a witness of. The original was changed as you know. When Joseph Smith dumped his original Book of Commandments and began to develop the Doctrine and Covenants there were those who left the church and he is seen by them today as a fallen prophet. It seems that Joseph, in their view, strayed from the original revelation and added more precepts of men.
Today there are at least seventy branches of Mormonism all holding to the idea that they are the one true church.
As for myself, I don’t get too excited when Christians hold to some different opinions about things including what’s covered in the article posted above. If you look closely into Mormonism, I’m sure you’ll find it full of precepts of men along with a boat load of false prophets. Let me give you a short list; blood atonement, Adam-god, and of course polygamy.
You’ve bought the program fred and because of that you’re unable to see that Mormonism is fraught with inconsistencies and a good deal of speculation. That’s just with the SLC denomination. Study some of the other sects of Mormonism along with their history.
Take a couple of minutes fred and check this out.
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=4167&sid=badc45075407f09d4b96e20b89ad549d
I found this recent posting on another blog. I think it pretty well summarizes TBM thinking and is the reason folks like our friend fred are able to remain in the Mormon fold despite the over-whelming evidence that Mormonism, what ever flavor, is false. Mormons need to come to an understanding of who God is. Line-up the Mormon god who lives with his various wives on the planet Kolob procreating spirit beings, with who the Bible tells us who God is and I’d think it would be time to jump the Mormon ship.
– Prophets are fallible, they’ve just never been wrong.
– You have free agency, but unless you do as I say, you don’t have the spirit.
– You must pray and receive your own confirmation for everything you are taught.
– If you have the spirit, you will receive confirmation for everything you are taught.
– There is plenty of room within the church for debate and disagreement.
– If you disagree with your leaders, you are fighting God.
Fred, I appreciate that you feel that the Bible is God’s Word and that we should embrace the
truths contained in it , especially when it comes to our relationship with Jesus —-Jn 20:31 . It
sounds like you see how necessary it is to “search the scriptures” [ Acts 17:11] to validate your
beliefs. In my study of Mormonism I have come to see how Jesus’ warning in Matt.7:15; 24;11,24
come alive because we all should be concerned about false prophets/apostles who come to us with
claims of being personally directed by Jesus to preach His gospel today, and this happens to be
the very claim of Mormon leaders since 1830 . When I look at what these men have taught as
spiritual truth since that time I have to dismiss them as actually being directed by Jesus . We have
the benefit of looking at their track record of doctrinal pronouncements , of their spiritual witness
on scriptural interpretation , and what we observe is that they are guilty of much of the same
behavior that they accuse other church leaders of , namely , changing the gospel by mixing it with
the precepts of men , altering /adding to saving truths and ordinances etc. In short , when they
accuse others of this behavior they have succumbed to it themselves . Though Mormon apostles
have resorted to this with good intentions of being faithful to God, they have actually only
” taught for doctrine the commandments of men ” [ J.S. history 1:19 ; Mark 7:7 ] . This happened
in large part because they felt by submitting to a prophet equals submitting to God , so they failed to test-1Jn4:1
Mike R says: February 9, 2012 at 7:08 pm-(In my study of Mormonism I have come to see how Jesus’ warning in Matt.7:15; 24;11,24 come alive because we all should be concerned about false prophets/apostles)
I find that the warning about false teachers in Second Peter addresses the differences in denominations and the men who create each of them.
(2 Peter 2:1.) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
So, which teacher of which denomination do you think is not a false teacher?
fred
I’ve always wondered about the Evangelical viewpoint on this but never found anyone that had an answer. Thanks for the info Aaron 🙂
fred,
You’re avoiding my challenge to you and I can see why. The Mormon garden is populated with the weeds of false prophets and teachers.
Which denomination of Mormonism is false?
You said:
“I find that the warning about false teachers in Second Peter addresses the differences in denominations and the men who create each of them.”
So given what you have written here, I’d say you’re on the right track to discovering that Mormonism is a false religion.
You conveniently ignore all of the different sects of Mormonism including all of the different Mormon inventions of Joseph Smith himself.
Smith held to a conventional view of the nature of God (Triune) in his original BoM, changed his mind and then the BoM was changed to reflect Smith’s changing views.
If you’re going to hope to have any integrity at all fred, you’re going to have to recognize the contradictions in your own argument.
fred,
If you can find one, get a hold of Bruce McConkie’s book on Mormon doctrine. He was the go to guy for the boys at the top of the Mormon pyramid. His work is out of favor now and the LDS church doesn’t even print it.
Bruce use to have a hissy fit over the Adam-God doctrine of BY. I know that more than anything you want to believe that Mormonism is true. In order to maintain your faith you have to do a lot of ignoring of facts and making of excuses.
What ever Mormonism was at the beginning, it isn’t that today. Over the years it became the playground for frauds.
But Mormonism can be whatever you want it to be. But what it isn’t is Christianity.
Fred, you still have’nt addressed why I should trust Mormon apostles to be faithfully
relaying spiritual truths from Jesus as they claim. Since you follow these men that places
the burden of proof on you to convince me that I should embrace their teachings . IF we are
to be vigilant for false prophets/apostles , as Jesus asks us to be, then either Mormon leaders
have since 1830 been directed by Jesus OR they are only religious men who have succumbed to
teaching their own ideas as gospel truths on many vital issues —- 2Cor. 11: 4,13 . Please take
this seriously .
OH MY! – I was totally going to write the following, after reading this post, as a tongue-in-cheek, “I bet LDS would say…”. But then fproy beat me to it!
“This is exactly why I know the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth. In your own post you show the discord among the “Christian churches”. God is not the source of confusion.”
fproy –
It is unfortunate that some professed Christians have taken to drawing lines in the dirt over trivial things and starting new denominations over it; It is unfortunate that professed Christians have started denominations over important things that have nothing to do with Jesus’ Gospel.
But, if you have studied the history of LDS, then you know that I’m right when I say that the LDS church has institutionalized discord and called it “progressive revelation.” IF you have studied, then you know that the very principle that tells LDS to “beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence” (President Ezra Taft Benson,“Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,”p.27), is telling them to ignore discord and call it progressive revelation.
A bit off topic, but interestingly connected to the “living prophet” quote above (which was from the Teachings of the Living Prophet Student Manual, http://institute.lds.org/manuals/teachings-of-the-livings-prophets/tlp-4-4.asp)
“The relationship of the living prophet and current revelation to the scriptures and revelations of the past was explained by Elder Orson F. Whitney in the following way:
‘Many years ago there came to Utah a learned prelate of the Greek Catholic church. . . . He had been to a ‘Mormon’ sacrament meeting, and had much to say in criticism of our method of administering the Lord’s Supper, particularly our use of water instead of wine on such occasions. He said it made him shudder when he saw the people sipping the water; and he pointed out the fact, for it is a fact, that according to the Bible the Savior, when he instituted the sacrament among the Jews used wine, declaring that it was his blood, or that it represented his blood. . . .
‘My Greek Catholic friend, whether he knew it or not, had hit upon the great distinguishing feature that differentiates God’s Church from all other churches under the sun—in this, that while they are founded upon books and traditions and the precepts of men, this Church is built upon the rock of Christ, upon the principle of immediate and continuous revelation. The Latter-day Saints do not do things because they happen to be printed in a book. They do not do things because God told the Jews to do them; nor do they do or leave undone anything because of instructions that Christ gave to the Nephites. Whatever is done by this Church is because God, speaking from heaven in our day, has commanded this Church to do it.'”
BUT…
According to LDS scripture:
“Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;” – DnC 27:3 – This, I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong), is the original cause for the use of water in sacrament meetings. It was “revealed” in 1830, But…
“…only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. (6) And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.” – DnC 89:5-6 – This was “revealed” in 1833.
If there is another “official doctrine” revelation stating that it should be water again, please let me know, anyone.
I take back the “off topic” label I gave these two comments as this seems to be a good example of institutionalized confusion/progressive revelation and also happens to completely contradict Elder Whitney and Institute’s claims. Unless I’m wrong and a third revelation is what permanently set water for sacrament…
I get a kick out of the charge by Mormons that there’s all this discord, confusion and lack of harmony among Christian denominations. It’s used as the reason for establishing Mormonism as the one true church. Then when we look into the history of Mormonism and the apostles and prophets we see that inconsistency is the rule rather than the exception.
How else could all of the changes in the BoM be seen? The changes weren’t the cleaning-up of poor grammar and/or syntax. There are changes that directly effect core beliefs on Mormonism. Add to this the numerous “prophets” that have arisen in Mormonism and all of the various sects and it becomes apparent that a revival is needed in the Mormon church.
Actually “enlightenment” would be a better word than “revival”. Revival relates to something that was once alive and has fallen into a spiritual stupor. Since Mormonism has never been alive, Mormons need to be enlightened. An enlightenment is bringing the truth of God to people who are in darkness. They need the “light” of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is a mass exodus from the Mormon church going on today because Mormons are finding their way to the truth that has been kept from them.
falcon says: – February 9, 2012 at 8:52 pm – (fred, You’re avoiding my challenge to you and I can see why. The Mormon garden is populated with the weeds of false prophets and teachers. Which denomination of Mormonism is false?)
Mike R says: – February 9, 2012 at 9:59 pm – (Fred, you still have’nt addressed why I should trust Mormon apostles to be faithfully relaying spiritual truths from Jesus as they claim)
And no one wants to address my question to you’ll.
If you not afraid to face your fellow “Christians”, please tell me where I am to go if I were to leave the LDS faith?
Or you can answer the same question from a negative point of view, which teacher of which denomination do you think is not a false teacher?
fred
Fred, you asked us where you would go if you left the Mormon church . The answer to your
question may be so simple that the force of it may escape you as it did some of the Jewish people:
John.5:39 . In trying to amass large quantities of knowledge sometimes the simple things can be
over-looked , buried under all the busy striving to keep all those laws , rules, issued by religious
leaders . Where would you go? Try John 6:68 . No Temple, no Church, no law system , no
laboring to try and earn ” the highest blessings ” of a “gospel system ” , the simple fact is : it’s
a person —JESUS. Go to Him. But don’t let that simple truth escape you. Do it soon .
Mike,
you are good at telling me what is wrong with the LDS Church, but like most around here, you will not say which of the many ways of worshiping Christ is not man made and false. It is like you are willing to upset Mormons, but not your fellow “Christians”, who cannot all be correct.
fred
Fred said
Fred, I could answer your question, but be have a problem? You say that 2 Peter is talking about false man made denominations. Explain where in that passage it explains or talks about different church denominations?
Then please explain why LDS are always telling us Christians that we must be wrong because we have so many different denominations. Yet LDS never seem to mention all the different LDS church Denominations and how that does not bother them. Why do we have to be full of false teachings and teachers, but it’s ok for you to have different denominations? And how come LDS never tell us, yes we have studied the RLDS and FLDS teachings and prayed about them and find the LDS to be the most accurate. Or even better, you have not told us if you ever researched Islam, or JW’s or Buddist, etc. I just watched a video sent to me by your “brother” and Mormon TJayT. It is a LDS teacher saying all religions are children of God and how they all have truth and love for one another.
If thats true, why are they wrong? And if they are not, then how do you know? Did you study them and pray about them?
Fred,
a few more thoughts?
LDS members feel they are Christians, so that would mean your just another denomination of Christianity. So if thats the case, then if you feel False prophets arise from denominations, then how can you say they are not coming from your denomination the LDS branch?
LDS clearly teach a totally different gospel than what we Christians preach, and many LDS have even stated as much. Also if as LDS imply, denominations are wrong and the cause of many problems, Then are you not a denomination of Christianity if you are a christian as you claim? So this poses more problems does it not?
fproy,
You have not responded to any of my posts. Should I feel offended?
Everyone else,
Can anyone add any other examples of the LDS having two different answers for something, contradictory answers, flip-flopping, or fence-sitting. Besides the one I already gave above (and fproy ignored) and that I list here as 1 with some others of my own?:
1) The wine commandment/water commandment (1830)/wine commandment (1833)/but always water defiance(?) of the LDS church – they’ve been able to make their own wine for the entire world-wide church for decades and still they don’t do what God has commanded?(see previous post)
2) The location of the Hill Cumorah: is it in NY, as a clear reading of the BoM shows and the Brethren have stated or otherwise acted (pageant, searching for archeaological evidence – and failing), or “somewhere else” as apologists state since there is no evidence at all of a few million man battle in NY?
3) Did Joseph use the Urim and Thummim to bring about the BoM or did he use the seer stone? (you get different answers when you ask LDS believers – even officials)
4) Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy or not? (you get different answers even within LDS, not even including FLDS, RLDS)
5) Was polygamy for taking care of widows or producing more children/helping Mormonism to grow in the beginning or any of the other reasons given by members?
6) Should undergarments have long sleeves and legs, or short?
7) Was the temple ceremony restored by Joseph Smith or not (as the changes made to the ceremony over the decades implies)?
8) Does the LDS church teach that “as man is, God once was; as God is, man may become” or not (see Hinckley statements)?
9) Are caffeinated drinks ok or not? When did soda become ok?
10) Should LDS couples use contraception or not?
11) Is polygamy, as a practice, an “eternal principle” or not?
12) Should black members only have received the priesthood only after all the whites or not?
13) Is it necessary to be married in this life to get to the uppermost Celestial Kingdom or not? (I’ve heard a number of (very sadly single) women indicate that they will be given husbands by God if they are worthy)
14) A DOOZY:Will the LDS church ever finish the Inspired Translation of the Bible and publish it as God commanded or not? Can any LDS president do translation anymore? It’s been over a century and nothing.
15) HERE’S ANOTHER DOOZY: Does one have to live Celestial law/completely repent from sinning(aka stop altogether)-as the BoM and LDS prophets have taught or do you just have to “try” and continuously repent (*sniff, sniff *- smells like LDS “cheap” grace to me)?
16) Did God the Father have sexual intercourse with Mary to “only beget” Jesus or not?
17) Is it “pure and delightsome” or “white and delightsome” or “pure and delightsome”? Again the “Translator” void in post-Joseph LDS.
fproy – What are your thoughts and actual content-specific answers to any of these questions?
Other LDS are more than welcome to give their perspective on these questions and/or the topic of “confusion”, “flip-flopping”, or “fence-sitting”.
Thank you!
Spartacus said
Let me add to this some more confusion, I suppose we all could add more to every one, but I will start with this. I own the LDS J.S.T of the Bible, it states it was not finished, yet God told JS in the D and C he would not die until it was finished. So did God lie? But then depending upon who you believe, it was finished.
from the D and C, God Supposedly told JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the JST of the Bible. But we read in the Preface to the JST it is possibly not complete. LDS over on the Fairlds board will tell you it is not complete. Where are the LDS that feel it is not complete getting there information? We read in the 1993-94 Church Almanac pg 339 under July 2 The prophet Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible
Then in the 2003 Church Almanac 536 again under July 2, it states JS finished the New Testament.
But sadly, the Prophet and President Joseph F. Smith feels it was not finished.
The reason that it has not been published by the Church is due to the fact that this revision was not completed…due to persecution and mobbing this opportunity never came, so that the manuscript was left with only a partial version.
Then we read in the JST pg 11
Changes made at some points in the inspired version were not followed consistently…. Some passages were corrected, but the parallel references were not corrected….Mormon authors Sperry (Cont)
Cont,
have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.
We read in Times and Seasons Vol VI pg 802 that the JST was completed.
Why is it if the JST is not really complete, have any of the so called “prophets of god” Corrected it. If it really is fully and truly corrected, why not fully use, promote and endorse it? If as these people and sources are correct, and the JST of the Bible is not complete, then God must be a failure, because not only did he commanded JS to finish the job, but this denies the teaching of 1 Nephi 3:7
Now we know none of this is a problem for Fred or the Mormons since they both want to believe what thay want to believe and they somehow have all the answers from all the so called research they have done.
Fred, you really need to try and stop answering a question with a question, it does’nt make
for a fruitful dialogue . I answered your question about where you should go if you left the
Mormon church. You still will not address my questions. Your whole arguement seems to be
stuck on the many denominations of Christianity which to you proves that the Mormon Church
are the true Christians , everyone else belongs to the church of the devil . I can assure you that
I don’t want to “upset Mormons” . I want to see them come free from the detour that their leaders
have placed in their path to serve God. If you feel that you’re being upset by what those here have
stated about Mormon doctrine than maybe it could be the Holy Ghost working to warn you .
Ya never know .
I find it highly interesting that Fred can point to subtle differences between Christians over something like the current place where the resurrected Christ dwells and say that is just evidence of how we are led around by our noses by different Christian teachings; and yet at the same time Fred belongs to a Church that has divided over whether Adam is God, whether or not God the Father ever sinned, whether polygamy is an eternal commandment or not – just to name a few. The nature of God, who the Father is and whether He has sinned or not, and whether polygamy is currently needed for man to reach his own godhood – these are huge differences – and Fred is hyper about differences between Christians, specifically in this article over exactly where Christ dwells since the resurrection? Sorry, try again.
fred,
I see an underlining theme in your posts that indicate that you are/were on a quest to find the one true church. First of all what I’d tell you is that it’s more important to find the One true God.
I’m not being flippant or clever here. Men will mess things up even when being good intentioned and that includes the Church. The Book of Acts has examples of this and think, these were the Apostles; the men who walked with Jesus.
Historically if you want the one true Church then you need to become a Catholic. I went to Catholic school as a boy and was taught that the Catholic Church was God’s one true Church and they had the lineage to prove it. Some of the best and the worst that religion has to offer came out of the Catholic church.
So when I say find the One true God what I mean is that the institution that develops around a particular belief system isn’t all that important. Personally I don’t get all hung up on the idea of the “one true Church”. It’s irrelevant. The reason it’s irrelevant is because all born again believers in Christ Jesus are part of the body of Christ, God’s Church. This is regardless of what denominational label they put on themselves.
Mormons are all hung-up on the institution of Mormonism and claim apostles and prophets to prove their point. The problem is Mormonism has rejected God and settled instead for an institutional religious system. Because Mormonism has rejected God, it is not apart of the Mystical Body of Christ.
So fred, I’d stop trying to defend the Mormon religion, and spend my time seeking the Living God. He is where believers in him are.
Over the years, since I’ve been posting here, we’ll get a Mormon or two who are really curious about what denomination I belong to. Now being the suspicious kind, I realize the point of their inquiry is to go and search for all of the flaws in whatever that denomination might be and hurl them at me. This seems to be a tactic used to bolster the Mormon claim to being the one true church of God.
I always get a kick out of their response when I tell them I don’t belong/hold membership in a church. This wasn’t my plan. It just kind of worked out that way.
I was going through this again recently with my friend Andy Watson who posts here occasionally. He’s been looking around for a church but unfortunately has been unsuccessful in his quest.
He has defined what he’s looking for theologically however he can’t find that brand where he lives. So he and I have been going down the list of the various doctrines of the churches he’s been checking out. Now interestingly we haven’t been doing this in order to identify God’s one true church. We both know the score as far as that goes. He’s looking for a “fit”.
So we’re down to the idea of finding one that’s in the Body of Christ in that it has the basic doctrines of what could be called the orthodox Christian church. These basics can be traced back to the birth of Christ’s church. Whatever little distinctives the groups attach to themselves is really irrelevant.
For-the-most-part, the people who attend these churches probably don’t even know the finer doctrinal points.
The Bible tells us that where the Spirit of God is there is truth, light and freedom. He inhabits believers.
falcon,
Excellent point made to fproy.
This is indeed where Christians speak over LDS heads and LDS keep going for the knees. The difference between seeking God, a God who says “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matt. 18:20), and a church, an organization, a system whose primary goal may be to serve God, but always includes the primary goal of self-preservation.
Read it again: “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
He’s obviously not talking about satanists with a banner overhead with the name “jesus” on it. He’s not talking about people who belong to an organization. He’s talking about people who “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Know before you think the LDS church is the Kingdom of God. What is the first thing in the Kingdom. How do you know that something claiming to be the Kingdom of God is actually the Kingdom of God. You have to know the King.
So if you are going to seek the Kingdom, the first thing you need to seek is the King.
So again:
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
No labels, no organization, just a group of the minutest size, and the King is there. Where? It is the Kingdom of God, the Body of Christ, Christ’s True Church.
Gee Spartacus these are simply Question. Let me give you my answers.
1Does not matter its a symbolic matter.
2 Hard one pass on it.
3Both
4Yes
5both
6long in winter and short in summer
7yes
8Its implied but not taught.
Clyde,
1) Did you really just say that the 1833 commandment of God didn’t matter? (maybe you didn’t read the post from Feb 10, 1:49a that I referenced at the beginning of the list)
And for all the rest, the POINT, is not that any one LDS member can give their own answer (Aaron’s post gives us two christian’s answer to the body question), but that there are a multitude of answers given NOT only by lay members but by “authoritative” leaders (as opposed to fproy’s apparent assumption that this doesn’t happen with the LDS church).
Thanks for replying, haven’t heard from you in a while. Hope you are well.
Clyde said
I love this, Typical Mormon response, A mormon cannot defend his faith, does not know what his church teaches and simply does not care.
Number 1 is more than just symbolic, Number two, if wrong proves the BoM false, yet a mormon does not care if the BoM is right or wrong, that is really sad. Then they tell us we get are facts wrong, but how can they say we are wrong when they admit they dont have the answers?
Hay rick.
Doesn’t it seem like we’ve been around this block before? It just proves my theory that if someone desires to believe something they are going to believe it regardless of what the evidence says. It’s like our Mormon posters are refugees from the OJ Simpson murder trial.
Let’s face it, these TBM types are hooked on the Joseph Smith story and it doesn’t matter what the evidence is, they like the feel of the narrative.
The sad thing is that they could actually get what they are seeking, which I assume is peace with God through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, without the institutionalized Mormon system. In fact the Mormon religious system gives them a form of religion without the Spirit of God. What they do is substitute a bunch of worthless temple rituals, some dietary and behavioral guidelines, and a lot of busy work for a real relationship with God.
The Apostle Paul wrote extensively about this and said that his foray into obedience to religion was rubbish compared to knowing Christ as Lord and Savior. Mormons don’t know who God is supposing that an invented religion with some false visions by a sinful man will do the trick for them.
So does all the LDS silence about the evidence given here proving that an argument from multiple and/or conflicting answers is not a valid way to show Christianity lacking and proving LDS true?
So we will never hear this type of argument or insinuation from fproy or any other LDS who has already read this?
Any new LDS to the blog can then be referred to this post and thread by any of us (LDS included) to help them not use such invalid argument either, right?
Are we all agreed? Speak up or risk your blog integrity.
Simply question for you guys. What does the sacrament represent to a Mormon.
Clyde,
What world do you LDS live in? Is it the planet Koleb, or should we say LSD instead of LDS?
We ask you guys questions, you ignore them, then ask us more, we answer them, then ask you a question, then you ignore them. It’s a cycle.
Then spartacus asked a question and it goes ignored. Funny how LDS work and think. Here is a funny one for you, I have a blog and it is about Mormonism, I dont add to it much anymore since I am here and busy with other things. But I had a reply to a topic that I posted over a year ago. I left an answer to the person that asked, with in the hour a different mormon came on and accused me of deleting posts, I asked for evidence of these posts I deleted. He mentioned the name of the person that just posted after a year of this topic being here.
Then after this mormon accused me of deleting posts that I dont like, I asked him, why would I delete posts, yet leave this one by you accusing me of this? That would be one to remove dont you think? Then this LDS comes back and says, Opps’ I assumed you deleted this guys post because I did not see it, but I finally found it.
Yet not once did I get, I’m sorry for accusing you Rick, I was wrong. Nope, just I assumed, and I finally found it. Typical Mormon, accuse with out evidence, and then when they are wrong, never admit it. Think I am making this up? I will if asked provided a link and you can read it yourself. Again, this is typical of the LDS.
It is such a simply question. Asked so that maybe some understanding of the more complex question can be answered.
Clyde,
So your saying that in order to answer our questions we need to answer yours first? And your question has nothing to do with the questions we asked, meaning, if we answered your question first, our answer would not really help you answer our question. This to me is another LDS dodge.
You guys really should get a game of dodge ball going, LDS would win hands down.
I feel like a person who has walked into the middle of a conversation. I have no idea what questions you have asked, I see that the topic of the blog seems to change in the comments and that a simple question that could be answered easily is avoided and I wonder why?
Somebody better tell the person who wrote the article on 14 March 2011 defining the difference between the LDS Jesus – who they stated had a physical body and resided on the planet Kolob; and the ‘Biblical’ Jesus – who they said was a spirit that transcended both space and time.
But then again, since everyone here appeared to defend that person and their position then I guess that everyone here agreed with that line of thought, at least back then.
But I do know a few Trinitarian Christians that believe that Jesus left His physical body behind when He ascended to heaven and right now is in a spiritual form.
As far as LDS belief goes – Jesus most definately has a physical body which is immortal and glorified. Although we teach that He resides on a certain planet, thus giving and answer as to where His physical form is at this time, this is immaterial to the fact that He is resurrected.
The above brings up some interesting thoughts.
If the first postulate is correct about Jesus’ physical form being placed outside of this 4D time/space continuum, then His spirit has to be as well, because the Biblical definition of resurrection is the body and spirit re-united NEVER to be separated again. Does this mean that Jesus is in stasis now and can do nothing much until He is placed back into this time/space continuum?
If the second postulate is correct, then Jesus, being physical, can only be in one place at any given time. This then concurs with the LDS teaching about Heavenly Father with a physical body being in only one place at a time. Now as Falcon and many others here like to point out, this means that He (the LDS Heavenly Father) cannot be omnipresent and therefore cannot be omniscient and most likely cannot be omnipotent – thus cannot be ‘God’ as described in the Bible. Leading on with this logic, this means that Jesus, as described here being somewhere in space and time with a physical body, cannot be omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent and therefore cannot be ‘God’ as described in the Bible.
So this begs the question I have asked many times – to be ‘God’ does one have to be omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient or is it just a matter of the 3 beings that make up the Trinity have partial attributes and as a conglomerate make it omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient?
Ralph,
Christians who say that Jesus left his body after the resurrection are in heresy, they may still be Christians but that belief is not acceptable as scriptural position. Can you point to any denominational doctrinal statements that affirm belief in this heresy? I have not heard of any who worship the one true triune God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who hold to such error (denying Jesus has a body in the resurrection). Please provide insight into who you are talking about – I have not heard of any and wonder if they are not a group that denies the one true God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rather than Christians.
Jesus is the eternal God-Man; he forever exists as both God & Man and we will see him in eternity. Come Lord Jesus!
4fivesolas,
While I was in Finland on my mission, many of the people I spoke to there believed that Jesus left His physical body behind. The majority of them were Lutheran.
I also have some friends here in Australia that are non-denominational who believe tht Jesus left His body behind when He ascended. They get their authority to interpret the scriptures from the Bible that they believe in.
As far as it being an heretical doctrine but “they may still be Christian”, then why discount the LDS church as a non-Christian denomination if we believe in Jesus but have ‘heretical’ doctrine?
There is also the fact that many on this site supported this heretical doctrine last year to try and prove the LDS church wrong as I pointed out.
Does this answer your question?
Ralph, as usual you’re trying to make a case based on the flimsiest of evident . I was present
last year when that issue you desperately want to construct took place. I don’t remember
exactly why I did not comment at that time , I don’t comment on every thread . I absolutely
believe that Jesus rose from the dead as the God-man and that He still has His physical body
today. Now until you have the testimony of everyone present last year that Jesus did’nt rise
physically from the dead, then all you’re doing is assuming . ( and you always do way to much
of that ) .
Ralph, a slight correction. I doubled checked that thread and I did participate in that one though
I did’nt address the actual issue you bring up now. I can’t tell you why I did’nt address it then but
just remember you still need the individual testimonies from those then present. I’ve given
you mine .
Ralph,
To answer your question – basically you are asking, how much heresy is too much? When does a Christian who believes heresy cease to be a Christian. I can conjecture about such a thing but only God can answer, only He knows their heart and whether they have simple faith in the blood of Jesus. However, I would be afraid of meeting God if I rejected the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – or if I discounted or negated God’s grace and mercy given to me in Christ death on the cross, and believed that salvation was based on my completion of my own works of righteousness rather than God’s gift of righteousness through Christ.
I am a Lutheran (LCMS), and our Church explicitly teaches that Jesus is eternally both God and Man. Any Lutheran who would say otherwise is not being true to Scripture, or our confessions. In other words, they’re just making it up on their own as they go. They may have never thought about it before being asked and just say whatever sounds or seems right. People are like that.
MikeR,
Unless you wrote under a different name, I could not see any comments from you on that blog. Just to show you what I mean about it appeared people agreed and supported that view, here are a few of the comments made by posters –
“Excellent post.”
“…The description of the Mormon jesus is so disgusting that those who accept it are a stench in the nostrils of God.”
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
“You can only really understand reality – and who you are yourself – when you understand who Christ really is. It puts everything into Truth’s perspective.”
“I always wonder how many Mormons even know about these differences. I mean, that the biblical Jesus is the way he is and not the way Mormonism paint him.”
“What just flips my switch is that what we know about Jesus isn’t a mystery. God has revealed His Son in the Holy Scriptures.”
“There is no mistaking that Paul guarded closely the gospel of Jesus Christ as it had been revealed to him by Our Lord. The Holy Spirit safe guarded the gospel and preserved it complete. Heretics of all generations have tried to draw people away from the truth of the gospel through false christs, false prophets and false apostles. The Word of God has prevailed and the knowledge of who Jesus is …”
There were no corrections made to the first postulate at all when these comments were made. What these people have done is like using the works of Arius and saying – see the LDS church is wrong because it doesn’t agree with Arius.
4fivesolas,
You said –
To answer your question – basically you are asking, how much heresy is too much? When does a Christian who believes heresy cease to be a Christian. I can conjecture about such a thing but only God can answer, only He knows their heart and whether they have simple faith in the blood of Jesus
Exactly. Even Jesus taught this with the parable of the wheat and tares. What was the verdict when the men wanted to weed the field before maturity? ”But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.” (Matt 13:29 )
In other words, it is not up to us to weed the field before the second coming because in doing so we can and will discard some of the true followers of Jesus. So again the question – As far as it being an heretical doctrine but “they may still be Christian”, then why discount the LDS church as a non-Christian denomination if we believe in Jesus but have ‘heretical’ doctrine? Why not just say that we are an heretical branch of Christianity and leave it at that? Just like we say you are Christian but your teachings about Jesus and His gospel are wrong. Because in saying that we are not Christian and we do not believe in the Christ of the Bible, you are weeding the field before its time.
Ralph,
Taking a strong stand against false teaching is never wrong. Perhaps a wheat in the LDS Church will hear the truth, realize the error, and be led into fully trusting only in Jesus for salvation, or leaving and finding a body of Christians to fellowship with. The more devoted a Mormon the less likely they are actually a Christian and the further from being a Christian they become. I would rather be in a place where the more devoted, the more I explored our doctrines of grace, the closer I came to the true Jesus of Scripture -not further into error, believing in my own deification, multiple gods, working my way to my eternal kingdom, etc. etc. Are there some people in various non-Christian religions who never get the falsehoods, but simply trust in Jesus blood – probably. But how much better for them if they leave behind the lies and find a Church home where Christ crucified for our sins and raised for our justification is faithfully preached.