The Heidelberg Catechism was first published in 1563. Described as “a comforting, practical summary of the [Christian] faith,” the catechism has been used for nearly 450 years to teach and summarize biblical doctrines. Ligonier Ministries’ daily devotional, Tabletalk, is basing its 2012 course of study on the Heidelberg Catechism’s questions and answers, looking specifically at the biblical texts used to define the doctrinal teachings.
When Tabletalk addresses Question 22, “What is then necessary for a Christian to believe?” the ensuing discussion regarding orthopraxy and orthodoxy details yet another striking difference between Mormonism and the Christian faith. As has been amply demonstrated here at Mormon Coffee throughout the years of dialog between Mormons and Christians, Mormonism is a religion of orthopraxy – that is, it is much more concerned with right behavior than with what individual members believe. Conversely, Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy – concerned first with right belief, which leads to right behavior. From Tabletalk (2 March 2012, Vol. 36, No. 3):
What Faith Must Believe
The Christian faith, in contrast to other systems, puts a premium on belief. To be sure, belief is important to other monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Islam. Yet these religions are often known as “religions of orthopraxy,” or religions of right practice. Consistent with their merit-based views of salvation, these religions generally elevate the right performance of rituals over doctrinal precision and exactitude. Christianity, however, is historically a “religion of orthodoxy,” a religion of right belief. Creeds tend to be emphasized over rituals. Christians identify each other not by the number of daily prayers, the direction they face in worship, and so on, but by the content of what they believe.
Of course, we do not want to minimize the importance of right practice, for Scripture emphasizes the need to obey the Lord (Deut. 11; John 14:15). Nevertheless, there is a logical priority of belief over practice. Surely, what we do influences what we believe, but it is impossible to do what is truly right if we do not believe what is truly right. God puts a premium on our minds and our hearts because our thoughts and our loves determine who we are and what we do (1 Sam. 16:7; Ps. 26:2-3; Prov. 23:7; Isa. 26:3; Mark 12:28-30; Rom. 8:6; 12:2).
So, the Heidelberg Catechism is certainly correct to define people as Christians according to what they must believe – the gospel (Q&A 22). But what the catechism defines as the gospel is not simply the idea that we must believe in Jesus. After all, belief in Jesus cannot make us Christians if we do not believe in the right Jesus. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Muslims all claim to “believe in Jesus.” Yet only the biblical Jesus presented in the gospel saves sinners.
As we saw in a Mormon Coffee post earlier this year, though Mormonism appears “obsessed” with Christ, the Christ it promotes is actually a different Jesus. At the close of the Tabletalk article quoted above readers are encouraged to apply right belief as they live Coram Deo — “before the face of God”:
We can imitate the example of Jesus all we want, but if we do not believe the gospel, we do not know Him. The gospel is simple—we are to put our hope of salvation only in the Son, who was sent by the Father and who pours out His Spirit on His people. At the same time, it will take an eternity to unfold the depths of the gospel. Let us continually return to the gospel and what it tells us about our triune Creator.
Ah Ralph,
At last you’ve got me! I’m trapped! How in the world can I answer your question which if I answer “yes” I’m caught and if I answer “no” I’m caught. You are a Pharisee aren’t you?
So let’s look at this and see if I can wiggle out of the steel jaws of this trap you’ve laid for me.
Ralph wrote:
“……….are you implying some sort of work that we have to do OURSELVES (ie without any external assistance from anyone including the Trinity god) in the initiation of our faith in Jesus? When you say “APPLYING the blood” again, is this some sort of work we need to do OURSELVES? f you answer ‘yes’ then you do not believe that faith alone saves as there are already 2 things you need to do before The Father grants the blessing of forgiveness which you have written about. If you say ‘no’ then how do you come to Jesus and apply His blood without our own work?”
First of all “apply the blood” is a figure of speech. It is a metaphor of sorts. It goes back to the OT and the first Passover. The Hebrews took the blood of the Lamb and applied it to their door jams. When the death angel “passed-over” the house, he spared that family. It was a “type” as it is known; looking forward to the sacrifice of the unblemished Lamb on the Cross, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So when I say “apply the blood” it’s a figure of speech, symbolic but none-the-less a reality of the saved person, saved by the Blood of the Lamb.
“Coming to Christ in faith” is Christian lingo. It means we have accepted Jesus as Our Lord and Savior.
Please keep asking if this isn’t clear.
Ralph,
I could really get deep in the weeds with you regarding the questions you’ve asked but it wouldn’t be of any benefit to you. Do you remember the account in the Gospel according to John chapter 3 where Nicodemus comes to Jesus after dark? Jesus talks to him about what it means to be “born again”. Nicodemus was totally perplexed by what Jesus told him. I don’t know if Nicodemus “got saved” but in the spiritual condition that he came to Jesus, he just wasn’t getting it; what Jesus told him.
Ralph you’ve been coming here to this blog for a long time. You still don’t get it. As long as you remain in your Mormon mindset, the things we talk to you about will just confuse you.
You have heart trouble Ralph. You may be a gentle and carrying soul, trying to do good, following your religious system but your spiritual heart needs to soften towards God.
I will continue to pray for you and your family that the grace of God will be poured out on you abundantly and that this will result in salvation for all of you.
Rick
You say “if you claim to be saved, then…[do like I said], some people would say, It’s likely you were never saved.”
Are you saying that King David was not saved? I gave this example because it is exactly what King David did. The man may not have been his best friend, but he was one of David’s forty mighty men. David slept with his wife and then had him killed to cover the affair. So, was David never saved?
Now, I don’t think you would say this, as you made it clear you do see a possibility for one to lose their salvation. That is great that you believe this.
John
If you will read my comments more carefully you will see that I never said that people use the doctrine to justify licentiousness. I specifically said that they encourage righteous living, and do not think that this doctrine should be used in this way.
However, the doctrine does exist, and I think it is more prevalent that you may think. I am not saying it is the most common, but it is still there. So, for Falcon to say it is a myth that Christian’s teach this doctrine is wrong. My only point was to correct his false statement.
To clarify what he was talking about, we do not say that the Christian world uses this to justify sin. However, for those who adhere to the doctrine, they have allows such to be done. In other words, if you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved” and that nothing we do can assist in our salvation, where is the strength of your words in calling people to repentance?
I had a good friend you told me that he did not believe that a man and woman living together in a sexual relationship outside of marriage were wrong. God loves us all, and by his grace we are saved, so as long as they love each other and are monogamous in their relation God is not going to hold it against them.
Tell me, how would call this couple to repentance? More importantly, if it is our faith that saves us, and they were active Christians of strong faith, do you believe they need to be called to repentance?
These are the kind of things that we are talking about when we mention that many Christians do use the idea of saved by faith to justify their life styles. A faithful, active Christian who may not be living exactly as God wants cannot be called to repentance if his works have no effect on his salvation.
We do not think Christians believe this allows them to sin with impunity. We simply see that it is used to justify the pet sins of the individual. Very few would claim this allows people to commit any act without consequence. But almost everyone I have talked to does believe it allows ‘small failings’ to go unnoticed (such as pre-marital sex, and even homosexuality).
Shem,
How do Mormons justify their small sins? Even though Mormonism is an aberrant, heretical cult, I would say that it’s more in line with the concept of “eternal security” or “once saved always saved”. So within that context, Mormons don’t have a whole lot to fear. I don’t know what percentage of those on the rolls of the Mormon church are full bore into it temple Mormons but I’d guess it’s fairly small.
There are all sorts of classification of Mormons including “Jack Mormons” and “social Mormons”. My guess is these folks are just cruising along going for a lesser level of Mormon reward in the after life. Andy Watson tells me he runs into these types of Mormons everyday in the course of his job. Some even told him that they’d “do the work in the next world.”
Christians are motivated by conforming to the example of Jesus. I don’t know of anyone who is working for some sort of reward. As Christians we believe in walking by the Spirit and not by the flesh. We are told in God’s Word what the fruit of the Holy Spirit is. We are also told what the deeds of the flesh are.
When I began to understand what God’s grace was all about, it brought me peace and assurance of eternal life. If someone wants to get on the legalistic routine of sin and death that’s their business but the Bible tells us plainly of a better way.
The way to crucify the flesh is by walking in the Spirit. It’s not by trying not to sin.
What you say is true as far as the Mormon system is concerned. It’s not true as far as what the Bible tells us. If I were you I’d follow the Bible not your prophets.
Falcon
What do you think it means to walk in the Spirit? It means that we are continually striving to do that which is good and avoid that which is not. It means that we rely on the assistance and guidance of the Spirit in this striving. One cannot walk in the Spirit if they are not trying to live righteously. It is impossible. This is clearly taught in the Bible.
As to everything else, I am well aware of what some members use to justify themselves, but they do so only by twisting the doctrine of the church. Those who say they will do the work in the next life are ignoring the fact that there is no chance in the next life if you had that chance here. They do not understand the truth.
Now, many people may be content with a lesser reward, and that is their choice. This is not a justifying of sin, but an acceptance that their choices will restrict their reward later, and a lack of caring about this. They understand what they will be missing out on, and choose to do so.
The problem is that your argument doesn’t work because we can call these people to repentance. Because of the doctrine of the gospel can warn them that such action will result in a lesser reward. What can you do? You have failed to answer this question. What can you do to stimulate the conscience of people to change their ways and repent? Please answer the question.
P.S. I think you would be surprised at the percentage of people in the church who have entered the temple. Even most of the Jack Mormons and Social Mormons have likely
Shem,
Your use of the word “striving” gives a lot of insight into the Mormon mindset.
About the last thing I’m going to do is “strive”. I don’t have to strive for anything. That’s where some make a huge mistake in their spiritual walk. Even Christians for that matter.
What do I mean by walking by the Spirit? It means that I’m focused on Christ and what He did for me on the cross. It means understanding the grace God extended to me in drawing me to Himself and providing me with the faith to believe in Him. It means turning away from my natural inclinations to sin and towards a deeper relationship with the Lord.
I gave-up striving a long time ago. I have entered God’s rest because through the blood of Jesus Christ, the Father sees me as perfect, without spot or blemish. I can’t do anything to improve on what God has already done for me through His Son Jesus Christ.
See that’s the problem with a religious system like Mormonism. You’re into a works oriented mind-set where you can never be good enough. That’s how abusive spiritual systems work.
All the religious stuff you’re doing is nothing more than garbage in the eyes of God. First of all, you don’t know God, which puts your works on a larger scrap heap than you can imagine. It’s worthless, meaningless, repetitive, man-made rituals which don’t impress God in the slightest. And even attempting to be righteous is nothing more than a moral atheist would do.
I would suggest you give up your futile religious life and come into a relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. Any religious system that doesn’t know God, is no better than some fraternal organization. You may as well join the Elks or the Moose Club.
Falcon
Didn’t you once say you thought of being a Calvinist. I think you should consider becoming one. I think it would suit you. Try hyper Calvinism then you would probably never write here again but then I would miss you. Your sweet charm, your striving to get me to change, your blogging that leads me to think that I can be a jerk and still be saved. Now I have overstepped my bounds in saying your striving because you’re not . You have given that up a long time ago But I see Jesus as an example to me and I see Him as an elder brother to be looked up to. So I wonder what Jesus would say to you because I see both of us falling short in explaining the others position.
clyde,
I don’t attach a theological label to what I believe. Calvin was a man who had a certain perspective. I find it interesting, but there’s nothing in Calvinism or in any particular theological point of view that I’m required to believe in order to be saved. Theological positions, in my opinion, are ways of explaining things.
You wrote:
“But I see Jesus as an example to me and I see Him as an elder brother to be looked up to.”
My heart aches for you. I see Jesus as God incarnate, not as “a god” as you and the Jehovah Witnesses view him.
Clyde, you are without excuse. It’s been explained to you over and over again who Jesus is and what the significance of his substitutionary atonement is for believers.
Instead of trusting in God’s Word along with the Holy Spirit to be your guide, you have chosen the counsel of men who neither know God or the Savior or the pathway to salvation.
You’ve put your trust in a man with a magic rock.
Enough said.
Gee Falcon I think we are both pathetic in God’s eyes. Hey! We do have something in common.
Well here’s an interesting court case which would go under my Catholic training of my youth as “avoiding an occasion to sin”.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/22/iowa-court-rules-boss-can-fire-employee-considers-irresistible-attraction/?test=latestnews
My Catholic training made me very sin conscious. In fact I was always thinking that God was mad at me, that I didn’t measure up, and that there was no way I was going to escape without some sort of penalty after I died. The religious system kept us on edge, never knowing for sure if we would make it into heaven. I could analyze sin with the best of them. I was miserable!
When I hit twenty years old, in my sophomore year of college, the whole religious system collapsed around me. I couldn’t do it any more. This along with examining the hypocrisy of the system led me away from God and religion into a life that was much more pleasant. I not only went merrily into sin but I had no guilt about it what-so-ever. What a twin-spin; the pleasure of sin without the pain of guilt.
So when I finally turned things around, recognizing that there was indeed a God and that my sin separated me from Him, I had a real challenge. If I went back into the type of thinking I had previously, I’d be on that roller coaster of sin and death.
I found a better way and it really had to do with my changing my thinking. I had to change my thinking regarding my hopeless condition and accepting the prospect that I did have assurance of salvation through my faith in Jesus and what He had done for me on the cross. What a relief!
My behavior did radically change but it wasn’t all that difficult to do because I was a new man in Christ. The Spirit gives life.
clyde,
Here’s the problem with your dead in sin as I am scenario.
In the religious system you follow, you not only have to be a mega-righteous dude but you have to follow a prescribed course of ritual observance to reach the highest pinnacle of Mormon reward, personal deification. The pressure your system puts on you is the concept of you never knowing if you’ve done enough to qualify under the “after all you can do” contract.
It’s all a moot point of course since Mormonism isn’t true anyway, but I think it needs to be pointed out.
The works-righteousness approach of Mormonism hides the facts of the religion. With the righteousness, behavioral orientation of the religion, it looks really sparkly and attractive. Who could, after all, fine fault with folks who are trying really hard to walk the straight and narrow and be religious?
What this masks is that the source of Mormon belief is a series of men, who have been given the moniker of apostle or prophet by the religion. They may as well be called Grand Wizard or some other lodge type ID. This is because Mormonism is a man-made religion with no power. There is a spiritual ambiance with manipulated feelings and supposed piety that has led to a false sense of answered prayer and manufactured miracle, visions and revelations.
I think it’s a good idea to go to the source. If the source is a god who was a sinful man, I think the whole program needs to be re-thought. There is no foundation, not even a hint of Mormonism in the first century Church. It can’t even be found in the writings of the heretics.
So really, the emphasis on behavior and ritual in Mormonism is little more than a smoke-screen to camouflage a false religious system.
falcon,
“he complained that her tight clothing was distracting, once telling her that if his pants were bulging that was a sign her clothes were too revealing, according to the opinion.”
“He also once allegedly remarked about her infrequent sex life by saying, “that’s like having a Lamborghini in the garage and never driving it.”
“Knight is a very religious and moral individual, and he sincerely believed that firing Nelson would be best for all parties, he said.”
What moral individual would EVER say this to a woman?? Honestly, this article makes me sick on so many levels. As a woman, if my employer ever made comments like this to me, I would be out the door. That was pure sexual harassment, oh and lets just let the man off the hook, he of course has no control over his behavior! He can’t help himself and he’s not responsible! Our society is so messed up! It’s sad that stuff like this even makes it to our court system.
Kate,
Yea, I thought his comments and then what they said about him being religious didn’t fit together. I teach college students as one of my part-time retirement gigs and I’ll tell you that they live in a different world than we do. However here we’re talking about a guy who isn’t some college sophomore but a medical professional. I understand when we say something and it can be taken in a manner that we didn’t mean for it to be taken, but this guy’s comments left little to the imagination. If what he said wasn’t sexual harassment, I don’t know what is.
The way men are wired, we almost have to wear blindfolds now days. Andy Watson has related to me how some women come to church dressed out in Las Vegas where he lives. What’s the best word, casual? No that doesn’t even capture it. The word “modest” has been lost to the modern culture.
But we, as men, are ultimately responsible for our own actions and reactions as much as the female, in this case, is for dressing inappropriately for work.
Falcon,
I was not trying to trap you, I was asking questions to clarify things because what you wrote, as I pointed out, indicated there was work to perform for salvation. ‘Applying the blood’ is not a metaphor; a metaphor is comparing two things by saying one is the other. I do know the Israelites painted lambs blood on the door frame, which was work they had to do for their salvation from the angel of death at that time. But that still does not explain what you mean by that phrase and how we apply the blood if we don’t have to do anything. I know that ‘coming to Christ’ means to accept Him, but that is still doing something for ourselves, ‘accept’ is a verb. Everyone on this site keeps saying that our salvation is free and we have to do nothing for it, I am just trying to see how you define it when you use words that talk about works.
After reading some of what you have written to Shem, and from the words of others in past posts this is what I understand – Faith is a gift from God which He gives us whether we want it or not, so there is no work in gaining faith. Once we have that faith we are saved and because of this on the day of judgment God only sees His work (ie the atonement) in us and we are allowed into heaven. So it is unnecessary for us to do any works. The only people given these gifts of faith and salvation are the ones that God has chosen, so no matter what anyone does they cannot get these gifts unless He gives them to them.
Am I correct?
Ralph,
You LDS are really hung up on doing works for our salvation, I have said this before and will say it again.
The religious leaders went to Jesus and said what WORKS must we do, Jesus replied with, only one work and that work is simply to believe.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent
So I guess if you really want to say that simply believing is a work, then yes, we must do one and only one work to be saved, and that is as Jesus said and believe upon Him.
When we mention works or say we must work, we view the word work as doing something like, I shoveled snow, I built a house, I painted a wall, I did something. Typically people dont say, I believed something, so therefore I did a work. Thats the difference. So when we talk about applying the Blood of Jesus, we are not talking Literally doing it, I dont have a cup of Blood from Jesus who Died 2,000 years ago that I simply can pour over my head, So when I apply His blood, it is more a figure of Speech, Like when Jesus said He is the bread of Life, or a door. He did not mean He was really a loaf of bread or a wooden door. I hope this helps you understand better.
Shem,
I have been really busy these last few days, so I want to get back to the issue of Once saved always saved.
You said
I dont believe people living like this are saved, The Bible says,
Notice that these verses say, These are the works of the flesh, and that these people will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now you can believe people who say, people who live like this, (cont)
(cont)
Will still be saved because God loves them and they are under grace, or you can believe scripture that says, These people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now I also will say this, No one is perfect and we all will sin and make mistakes. the epistle of John says, that IF WE confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us of our sins.
Now there is a difference between being a believer and sinning and and asking for forgiveness and claiming to be a believer and living in sin.
Let me explain. I can say I gave my life to Jesus, But I have only been a believer for lets say, 5 days, I still have lots to learn and as the Bible says, I am a baby, I will grow from reading my word and and will mature, God will have grace upon me as I learn and grow. As I learn and grow, I will understand that I must stop sinning, so I stop doing what I clearly know is wrong, Like I stop watching porn if that is something I did, or if I am not married and living with a women, I either get married or move out until I do get married. If I am stealing I stop doing that.
Yes it will be hard to stop doing all this since I did it all my life and now believe in Jesus and understand it is wrong.
Now I can say I am a believer, but live as if I knew read the Bible. I lie, cheat, steal watch porn, I do these things just like I did was I was living apart from Christ. When you see someone living like this, you really wonder, are they saved? (cont)
(cont)
The Bible says
The Bible says, that those things are fruits of the spirit. If I see changes in your life that tell me you probably reading the Bible and I see your struggling with your addictions, But your seeking prayer and asking for help, then yes your changing and probably saved.
If you claim to be saved, But I see no change, I see no fruits of the spirit, You still doing what you were doing before being saved, then you probably not.
Only God know for sure, but why take the chance?
Ralph,
I think Rick has done an excellent job answering your questions (above) but I’ll add a little to his explanation. You wrote:
“I know that ‘coming to Christ’ means to accept Him, but that is still doing something for ourselves, ‘accept’ is a verb.”
Ralph this is the confused thought process of a cultist. In that world up becomes down, black becomes white and a circle is really a square. In your example the act of believing becomes a work. Go back to the Bible. It draws a clear distinction between what is meant by a work and what is meant by faith.
The classic verse is Ephesians 2:8 which says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”
The entire book of Galatians is devoted to this topic. This book, which Paul wrote, is replete with examples and here is just one: Galatians 2:16 which states, “….nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Paul is talking about folks who are trying to put themselves back under Jewish Law, but the message is clear as to how someone is saved. It’s by faith.
I don’t know but it seems that you’re confusing Mormonism with Christianity. You’re attempting to apply the religious system of the cult you belong to, to the faith that was practiced by first century Christianity and has been maintained by God’s Word and Church tradition since that time.
Faith, belief is not a work. It’s not defined that way in Christianity.
Ralph,
I’m going to assume that you are sincere and want to know about faith and how we are saved/granted eternal life. One author puts it very well by pointing out the “contrast” between faith and works.
“In the Bible, faith and works are very often contrasted. They are not the same thing, and the combination of faith and works does not bring salvation. Salvation is by faith alone.”
Rom. 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.”
Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus…”
So that’s the first part of what you asked. That is, is faith really a work. No, it can’t be because even a cursory reading of the Scriptures contrasts the two. It’s the contrast that sets these two things apart from on another.
In Mormonism, works are imperative because the Mormon believer has accepted as truth that he can become a god by behaving a certain way and by performing prescribed religious rituals. So in the mind of someone who believes this, even faith can become a work. Behavior and performing rituals are the foundation upon which the entire prospect is resting; becoming a god. I could see why even faith could be viewed as a work in such a system.
Now as to whether or not faith is a gift. I think what you might be asking is if God makes people believe outside of their own free will to accept or reject His offer of eternal life. That is, does God infuse a believer with faith that they cannot resist? Can someone resist the Holy Spirit’s promptings and in doing so resist and reject God? Good question.
Again, one author summarizes his thoughts on the topic by saying this:
“To conclude, it is inaccurate to suggest that God gives men a special gift of faith so that they may be saved and subsequently sanctified. Instead, God has sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the saving truths contained in Scripture (John 16:8; Rom 10:17; Eph 3:9). When one is regenerated, it is yieldedness to the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit, not infused faith, that results in good works. From Ephesians 2:8 and the collective whole of NT data, God is presented as the gracious initiator who, through His Holy Spirit, woos and wins men to Himself. Man is depicted as the responder who, in his spiritually destitute state, is convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and answers in simple faith to the promises of the Gospel. In view of such exquisite grace, it is only fitting to contend that salvation is a superlative expression of divine favor, yea, even a gift of God!”
Now there are a variety of theological views concerning how we come to be saved but the reality is, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that we do get saved. How we come to exercise that faith, that is, is God’s grace irresistible or not, isn’t all that important to me.
Ralph,
From my personal experience that just prior to my coming to Christ in faith, I was under a huge burden of conviction. Not conviction as to some specific sin or sins, but conviction to come to a point where I recognized who Jesus is and what His vicarious death on the cross meant. The pressure was enormous and unrelenting.
In retrospect it doesn’t seem like I could have resisted God’s Holy Spirit who was burdening me with this conviction. I may have been able to do so. I don’t know because I threw in the towel, came to Christ in faith, was born again, and changed my life considerably as a result.
I rejoice that God troubled me so, pursued me and wouldn’t give up on me. His love and mercy and the grace He extended to me through His Son Jesus Christ baffles me. I don’t get it. I don’t know how it works. I don’t know why some people respond and others don’t.
Consider yourself Ralph. Why do you continue to resist the Holy Spirit when He is clearly calling you? You keep showing up here for a reason. A reason that’s probably not even in your awareness. You may think you’re here to defend the false religion and false god you’ve embraced. But that’s not why. God is drawing you here so that you may hear the words that bring life and in so doing respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
I continue to pray for you Ralph that your resistance to the leading of the Holy Spirit will wilt in the fire of God’s love for you. May He bring you to a saving knowledge of His Son Jesus Christ and in so doing bring eternal life to you and your family.
Ralph,
Here is another way to look at the issues of works VS faith and say, is it the same thing?
In Mormonism People who are dying on their death bed cannot be saved, and people in jail, sitting on death row waiting to be executed also cannot be saved according to Mormonism.
But In Christianity these people can be saved even 5 seconds before they die? Why is that?
The reason this is, Is because in Mormonism they cannot do works. They cannot enter the temple, They cannot pay there 10 percent, they cannot go and feed the poor, or mow someones lawn, or build a house or whatever work(s) they choose to do.
Now why can these people be saved in Christianity? Because as the Bible says, They believe in Jesus death on the cross by faith, they call out to him and ask forgiveness of Sin, They do as the Bible says, Confess with there mouth and believe with there heart that Jesus died for them and they are saved. It’s that simple.
Now I dont get why You LDS feel that simply believing something is a work, but whatever, I guess if you really want to call it that then fine. I can sit home all I want and simply believe with all my heart I am lifting weights, but it wont really build muscle. I can really believe all I want as I sit here in the freezing cold weather of Minne(snow)ta, That I really am in (Cont)
(cont)
Some warm to hot forgien country. I can believe all I want something, But that does not make it true.
You really remind me of some of the false teachers that we call, Health and weatlh teachers.
These teachers claimed to believe God wanted us healthy and wealthy. So healthy in fact that if we saw a doctor or had mediciane we were living in sin. But when these teachers started getting sick and needed to see a doctor, they went under fake names.
My sons birthday is today and he recived 100 dollars in cash and gift cards from family, he said, Look how much money I MADE. Sorry but he did not make a dime, it was a gift. I view LDS as the same way, Jesus says, salvation is a gift he gives us, yet LDS say, look what I DID, I earned salvation from the things I did. Sorry, it was a gift not something you worked for.
Rick,
You’re on a roll. You may get the MVP award here at the end of the season.
Here’s the deal. Mormonism is an entirely different religion highlighted by the fact that they worship a false god. So in their religious system, all that they tell us regarding the “works” they are compelled to do is true within the context of that religious system. The sad fact is that Mormonism is not true and they’re wasting their time feeling all religious, pious, devout and sincere. The fact of the matter is that they are as lost as an unbeliever because that’s what they are; unbelievers.
Joseph Smith over-layed his ever evolving religion on top of Christianity, coming up with his own religious system which in some ways resembled the Biblical faith. He invented a new God, a new Jesus, a new Holy Ghost, a new Holy Spirit, and a brand new plan of salvation that intertwined rituals borrowed from the Free Masons.
Smith told a narrative that excites some people making them think that their excitement proves that Smith’s religion is true.
The “works” and emphasis on righteous living, contained in the system, while demanding, can make the practitioners feel a sort of personal satisfaction. For some it provides a purpose, meaning and direction for their lives.
While you and I shake our heads and wonder how people could be so foolish as to be seduced by this flim-flam, they are enraptured by its various elements. I saw what I think were a car full of Jehovah Witnesses the other day when I was in town and I thought, “What an enormous waste of time.” But they dig it. It makes them feel good and they think their traipsing about has some significance regarding their eternal reward.
Jesus is the answer, not religion!
RickB and Falcon,
Its Christmas day at the moment and I dont have time to respond, but I’ll be back later. All the best and Merry Christmas
Ralph,
We understand, I have a friend who I have known longer than my wife, I meet my wife in 92 and were married in 94. I meet my friend about 6 months before my wife, He also lives, Born and raised in Australia. He is a school teacher In Queensland, He lives in/on mount tambourine.
He has the same Initials as me R.B. But his first name Robert. How far from Him are you?
RickB,
I have asked this many times – If belief in Jesus is the only requirement and that alone saves despite works, then it really doesn’t matter if I decide to get baptised, go to the temple, etc as I already believe in Jesus, so does that mean I am saved? As far as ‘applying the blood’ I know it’s a figure of speech meaning to repent, but the word ‘apply’ is a verb, so how do you apply without doing something, in this case repenting, which is a work? Also re-read what I said, there is nothing in there about belief, I only use the word faith. There is a difference.
We have been through death-bed salvation many times, when will you understand? You know we believe that people can be saved after death, which is why do baptisms for the dead. If someone has truly accepted Jesus but die before they have a chance to be baptised, or if they did not have a chance to hear about the true gospel in this life – eg they lived in central China or Australia in the 3rd century – they will have the chance to hear it in the spirit world after death and can accept or reject it there. Jesus can and will read their hearts and intentions on the day of judgment and if they have accepted His truth then they can enter the Celestial Kingdom. But if they are only doing death bed repentance after being given multiple chances in this life and knowing the truth in this life then they cannot and will not be forgiven.
I live in Newcastle about 12 -13 hours drive south of Mt Tamborine.
Falcon,
Please re-read what I wrote. Some on this site have said that there is NOTHING that we can do for our salvation, even to the point of saying that the faith we have is a gift from God which He has given us not because we want or seek but whether we want it or not. And since it’s a gift its free, we didn’t and don’t need to work for it. It is through this faith and this faith alone that we are saved despite our works. And the only people that are given this gift of faith and salvation are God’s chosen.
In the excerpt you have cited it states that the Holy Spirit initiates the faith in the person by applying a burden. All the person needs to do is to stop fighting it. Now since you believe in the Trinity, isn’t this just saying that God is the initiator? And if the person just needs to stop fighting against it isn’t that just saying that its given to them whether they want it or not? So there is a slight difference in what you have cited to what others have said.
So again, am I right in what I have said – is faith and salvation totally free and out of our control as others believe it is?
Now when it comes to faith, we LDS teach that a saving faith includes works as stated in James 2 – faith without works is dead. Why? Because on the day of judgment or faith will be judged by its fruits – in other words our works. So are our works involved in salvation – yes, as they denote our faith. But without faith they are nothing and cannot save.
There seems to be a problem here with what I see as over explanation of what we are talking about. Like once saved always saved (answer-well yes and no-One accepts Christ as his savior, falls away and later comes back to Christ. The saving blood is still there. Is he working for his salvation? Well yes and no, One is telling somebody about the Glory of God and His Son Jesus. People are laboring diligently for the right words in which express the knowledge in the correct way. One is an LDS missionary the other is blogging for MRM. Each is searching diligently for the right word to tell the other why they are wrong. Each sees it necessary for what they are doing. Each tends to mock each other at times. Some people don’t see writing as work but to me it is a lost art.
My question would be what works bring me to the glory of God and what wouldn’t. To you it might be a waste of time but the other person justifies what he does in his mind.
After thinking about it, I am convinced that no matter what any christian says, and no matter how much we quote scripture, LDS really want to believe what they want to believe even if it results in there eternal destruction.
As I have shown many times over, Jesus said, the Only work we must do is believe He was sent By God.
So if you really want to say to believe something is a work, then so be it, the only work then is to believe.
Then the Bible says, Salvation is a gift of God, we are saved by GRACE, not BY WORKS.
Despite the Bible saying that LDS still claim Works. If God says, Salvation in a GIFT, then how can it be a gift if we must work for it or do something other than except it?
If Jesus says, all we must do is believe, then why do LDS feel Jesus is wrong and we need to do works?
Rick
Is there any way I can help you? Any bit of service I can give to help you understand? If I can serve you it will be a service to God. However somebody who is watching me might think that I am working my way to heaven. I just want to help you. The idea of getting to heaven does not cross my mind. If I can help you to understand, to realize or to recognize what I see as Christ in my life then I have won the battle. Now you should realize that this can also apply to you.
You want to help me because you are worried about my eternal soul. The idea of getting to heaven does not cross your mind. If you can help me to understand, to realize or to recognize what you see as Christ in your life then you have won the battle. Now you should realize we can walk away from each other and just agree to disagree.
I hope that something can be said here that will help you to tell the guy-the one who watches porn and brews his own beer and hates God-that his life is not as glorious as he sees it. I also wish you happiness in the new year and good health to everyone Who blogs here.
Rick,
Mormonism isn\’t Christianity, right? It\’s something else, but it isn\’t Christianity. It is a religious system unto itself, invented by a man who had a massive ego and penchant for (religious) creativity.
Works are very important in Mormonism because that\’s how a follower of Smith becomes a god. It makes perfect sense within the context of their religion. Think of it like earning \”belts\” in karate or judo. You just don\’t show-up and get a black belt handed to you. You have to do the work.
Works in Mormonism are the pathway to becoming an ascending master.
My point is that we \”think\” Christian. Mormons don\’t \”think\” Christian. They\’ve accepted a different god. In their minds that drives the entire program because the god they relate to in the Mormon multi-level marketing program, got there the same way.
I have to keep reminding myself of this because, like the Jehovah Witnesses, what we point out regarding what the Bible says makes no difference. It\’s their bogus religious system that drives their thinking.
Ralph,
I think I\’ve told you that I don\’t have a clue how the process works regarding how someone comes to Christ in faith and gets saved. There are various opinions regarding this. However there is one thing that is clear, we can\’t do anything to merit our salvation. God offers us the gift of eternal life according to the grace He has extended to us.
The important thing is that we do come to Him.
Now is God\’s grace \”irresistible\”? That\’s a good question because you and clyde and the other Mormons who come here and post are doing a pretty good job of resisting God\’s grace on a daily basis.
Why, for example, has Kate followed the promptings of the Holy Spirit, left Mormonism and come to Jesus in faith thus securing the gift of eternal life that God offered to her? How come she came to realize that the Mormon system of works-righteousness could never save her; that it was a false religious system with empty promises?
We\’ve had numerous former Mormons post here who have responded to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and made the same journey out of darkness and into the light.
Mormonism is more dangerous than pornography or drug abuse, alcohol addiction or any sexual sin. The reason is that Mormons are as lost as the people caught in the trap of habitual, destructive sin. Mormonism is more dangerous because it masks the trap by covering it with works and a false religious spirituality and feeling.
Someone in the clutches of destructive sin can see the contrast between their sin and Christ\’s redemptive power. Mormonism, as well as other false religious systems like the Jehovah Witnesses, give the impression of being able to provide a pathway to eternal life.
They are the perfect religious scam.
Clyde,
Maybe it is me, but what you said made zero sense.
I would like a LDS to explain how A gift costs you something? If it is a gift, then you have no need to work for it or pay for it. Once you work for it or pay for it, it is no longer a gift.
Doing good deeds/works important ? Absolutely ! Much personal benefit for self and for
others is a result of living a moral lifestyle that as Christians we have been asked to do by
counsel of scripture. Good works necessary for salvation ? Nope. Eph 2:8-9 is to the
point , and together with other scriptures in the N.T. ,we see that we can\’t gain eternal life,
a complete salvation resulting in the highest blessings in heaven in the presence of our
Creator through our meriting/earning it , as Eph 2:8-9 states. Yet Mormon authorities
have said that eternal life [ exaltation] is earned by individual effort, work . Climbing up
what Mormons call the \”gospel ladder\” each rung being a command , law, rule, policy, necessary
to do in the climb up to exaltation in heaven . More and more LDS are experiencing the futility
of all their religious work , their sincerity is admirable but it has dawned on them that such
working does\’nt seem to fit what Jesus\’ apostles like Paul taught. There are LDS who have been
fortunate to have taken the time to peruse the teaching track record of their leaders since 1830
and have wondered why these men can\’t seem to get it right about what\’s necessary for a person
to do to attain eternal life [exaltation] , as their leaders keep altering the rungs of their gospel
ladder. But eternal life can be found by embracing what Jesus\’ apostles preached in the N.T.,that
gospel of salvation( Rom 1:16) is still mighty to save all who embrace it. Despite Mormon
leaders claims of being the \”living\” prophets, many LDS are finding that Jesus\’ apostles spread
the gospel that saves and that is what they\’ve been longing for–Heb7:25.
Here is a question for all LDS who teach/believe we must do good works to help in our salvation.
Just exactly how do we know when we have finally done enough good works, and how do we know what it is that we must do, or how much?
What I mean is, if someone like Romney who has Millions of dollars and can donate a million like it is nothing, and someone who has no job and no money, how can the poor person donate money to do a good work?
Lets avoid using money and say, a guy who has 20 years experience doing carpentry can build house, so he donates 40 hours a week to build houses, well thats great, but what about the 16 year old kid who has zero experience and never built a bird house. I can keep making all kinds of these
comparisons about a rich person to a poor, or a person with lots of experience in one area verses a person who has none in any area. How can we know when we have done enough?
Add to that, what if a person either really young, like 10 years old, or some one who is 90, just came to faith in Jesus, then for some reason dies maybe a week later, by accident or old age, how can they be fairly sent to the degree of heaven if they did no works? I understand Mormons claim Baptism for the dead, but the way that works is, I might as well not even bother doing all these works, since I cant know if I did enough or not, and I can be simply baptized by proxy into a higher degree of glory.
Rick,
Works also include temple work including baptism for the dead, endowments for yourself and others, sealings, missions, callings, word of wisdom etc. A Mormon can never do enough or be enough, especially Mormon women. No wonder Utah has one of the highest antidepressant usage rates in the nation. Mormon children aren\’t allowed to go to a friend\’s house if that friend\’s father is known to have a beer in the house, but it\’s perfectly fine to be around their own mother high on and addicted to prescription medication. Judgmental attitudes come from believing works are what get you to Heaven. People judging your every move is the worst part of living in a small LDS community. You have to have a pretty thick skin.
Kate,
Ralph said to me
This is not entirely true, I have said to LDS before just what you said, If people are on their death bed or on death row, they cannot be saved since they cannot pay their 10 percent or enter the temple. I have mentioned this to MM\’s and they told me this was correct and also you must be a Mormon for a minimum one year before you have a shot at entering the temple.
Also Ralph can say what he wants about baptism for the dead, but not everyone can be baptised for the dead, or not all dead can be proxy baptized.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, \”…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.\”
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, \”Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…\” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
Given these teachings from LDS scripture and a latter-day prophet, what is the hopeful outcome for Latter-day Saints performing vicarious temple ordinances on behalf of people such as Adolf Hitler and Reinhard Heydrich (as mentioned in the Salt Lake Tribune 10/9/99)?
Add to that, We have almost 2000 years from the Time of Christ going back to heaven till the Time of JS starting the LDS church.
During all those years we have possibly millions of people who died. (Cont)
(Cont)
Not hearing the Gospel according to LDS standards, But do we have every single name off all those people that need proxy baptism? I seriously doubt it, then add to that, LDS are praying via proxy baptism for more modern times and people, people who lived and died in the last few hundred years. Every years thousands of women are killed and people die in wars all over the world. Their is just not enough time to pray and proxy baptize them, the numbers are staggering.
But if we just place our faith in the one who died for us, we do not need to worry about all this.
Rick,
All of that is so true. I know when I was a Mormon we were to go back through our genealogy 4 generations and do the work for our own families. I\’m a little confused as to why people like Adlof Hitler, Ted Bundy and other murderers are being done. I did see the record where Mary, Mary Madelena and Jesus were done as well. I don\’t know if the LDS church realized or approved those but whatever. The fact that anyone would feel the need to do temple work for Jesus is appalling! So glad I\’m out of this weirdness! You are right, all we need to do is place our faith in the one who died for us.
First, I have to marvel at the sheer ignorance of people concerning the doctrine of the LDS church. It seems that no one here who is not a current member has any clue as to what they are talking about.
For instance, Rick posted a series of comments (December 22, 2012 at 6:42 pm, December 22, 2012 at 6:53 pm, December 22, 2012 at 6:57 pm) to answer a question I posed, and in doing so outlined LDS doctrine almost perfectly. Yet he did so obviously thinking that it was not LDS doctrine.
Then we have the several people who keep claiming that our doctrine teaches we can never do enough, which is absurd in the extreme. I would say that a large majority of the active LDS members have the promise of exaltation because of their faith and obedience. It is not an impossible task, and anyone who actually understood the doctrine would know that. Comparatively it is actually rather easy, especially after living the gospel for a while.
Of course, Rick brings in many analogies, but these seem to imply that equal work is required by all people, which is not true. After all, we all pay a 10% tithe. Thus Mitt Romney may pay 1,000,000 dollars a year, while I pay only a thousand. This satisfies the laws of God. So, an expert carpenter may be expected to donate his skill in assisting others building houses, while the 16 year old may only be expected to carry the nails and fetch tools. Each serves as his ability allows, and that is accepted of God. There is no mystery in this. This is what the parable of the workman is all about (each receiving an equal reward though they
Then we have the huge misunderstandings concerning basic salvation and Baptism for the Dead. First, it is possible to be saved on your deathbed, as is evidenced by the Thief on the cross. It is just very difficult, because salvation only comes to the truly repentant, and after a life of sin repentance in a few short minutes is not likely. However, it is not impossible, and the work can be done for such, allowing them to receive all the ordinances that are required. It is only a fool that would claim such is not possible.
Of course, Rick tries to go back to the false idea that we can do whatever we want now and have our work done later. This is not only wrong, but a highly damnable idea that can only result in the destruction of souls. A person who purposely postpones baptism and other ordinances will not have the chance to accept them in the next life, but will forever loose the reward of the Celestial Kingdom. However, a person who sincerely believes and seeks out baptism, but dies before they are able to attain such will have their work done, and will gain the Celestial Kingdom.
Then we have Rick’s many issues, with the finding of names and the actually performance of the ordinances, and all that. Of course, this is not really an issue since we will have the 1,000 years of the Millennium, during which time all things will be revealed (including the names of every person who ever lived). Also, considering that there will be little death after Christ returns, and all the faithful who have received their resurrection will once again live on earth, man power will not be a problem.
Shem,
You guys take one verse in the Bible and turn it into an entire Doctrine, please explain how that is possible.
Also please explain How the Bible claims salvation is a free Gift, yet according to LDS we must help in our salvation via works. The so called, after all we can do.
Add to that, I saw a movie called \”The expendables\” and their was a scene in the Movie where Stallone\’s character was in a truck with a women, He looked up and saw a lot of hand sketched pictures she drew. He said he liked them, she offered him one as a gift. He said he does not take gifts and would pay for it.
She said, if you pay for something, then it is no longer a gift. If these non believers understand this, and they were not talking about the Bible or salvation, or even spiritual issues and they figured this out, how come LDS dont seem to understand this? The Bible is clear, salvation is a free gift. We cannot work for it or earn it in any way.
You are if you are a Mormon and have received the 2nd Anointing (all except for murder). As I recall, Joseph Smith tried to and did commit adultery with a number of his best friends wives.
“Apostle” Albert Carrington committed multiple instances of adultery over 12 years:
The problem was, he fooled Brigham Young, John Taylor & the entire Quorum of the Twelve the whole time he was committing adultery and fornication.
Heber J. Grant wrote in his Diary,
Here is where the “always saved” part comes in. Since Carrington had received his 2nd Anointings, he was guaranteed that he “could not fall”, as long as he did not “shed innocent blood.” Since he was excommunicated, how could this be? Because all his “blessings” were “restored” after he died. The evidence is in the historical record:
Sounds bad, but there is more.
Rick B
You’re right Rick you don’t have to do a damn thing for Grace. Even those people who have no idea who Jesus is don’t have to do anything for it. Remember Philippians 2:12 says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. So if you can do something good for somebody and they can do something good for somebody else and so on and so on you’re not buying anything you’re just passing it along. You are putting on the armor of God after you do that you can stand before Him.
Carrington had a stroke, but wanted back in the church. Woodruff wrote to Carrington’s Bishop on November 1, 1887,
They wait 2 years, until Carrington is on the verge of death,
That last part is significant. In the Church Handbook of Instructions page 122 we read,
Carrington had his blessings restored. He had his 2nd Anointing. He was saved after he committed atrocious acts of sin in the Celestial Kingdom with his wives.