The Trinity: Mormonism’s Rejection of God’s Highest Revelation (Part 4 of 4)

In this last article we will examine one of the heretical distortions of the doctrine of the Trinity as embraced by Mormonism. As was noted earlier, Mormonism doesn’t look favorably on the ecumenical councils that took place long ago in Christianity. Why were these councils called in the first place? The primary reason was because of heresy creeping into the church, unfortunately, by those in the church that were going astray theologically, thus causing others to join them. These instigators of heretical teachings could not be ignored and had to be addressed. Their heretical teachings were a diversion from the faith and a pollution of the gospel that emphatically began with the understanding that there is one God (monotheism) and Jesus Christ was God in human flesh (His deity: fully God and fully man).

Early Christians didn’t have their theology formulated and worked out in fine details like Christians do today. It took several hundred years putting this together as the Christians studied the Scriptures in light of incoming heresies. Heresies that impacted Christianity did have positive outcomes. For example, the heresy of Marcionism forced Christians to carefully examine those books written by the apostles or other inspired writers that were authoritative, which brought about the canon of inspired Scripture. Regarding creeds, the Christians were forced to examine their beliefs in light of Scripture, forming creedal statements of belief that conversely resulted in a rejection of heretical teachings. The ancient creeds of the Christian Church are merely statements of belief that are based on Scripture. The Church is defined by what it believes. In modern times we call these “doctrinal statements.” In Christianity these doctrinal statements come from the ancient creeds that summarize what the Church believes and, indirectly, doesn’t believe. Every church, sect, or religion has these statements of belief that are essentially the same things as creeds. The LDS Church is no exception. Instead of the word creed the LDS Church calls their statement of beliefs Articles of Faith. These are synonymous terms no matter how vigorously the LDS Church tries to redefine or spin it (as they do many other words) in a desperate attempt to appear different from other religions — or to demonstrate their vitriol against the early church ecumenical councils.

Why did these heresies come up in the first place? Did these occur outside of God’s will and control? Christians believe and worship a God that is sovereign over all things and that includes all that takes place in the world and the times that they occur (providence). All things come to pass exactly at the moment in history that God wants it to occur. The writings of the early church fathers (ante-Nicene), the ecumenical councils, the close of the canon of Scripture, the formulation of theology, and creedal statements of belief all came to pass exactly according to God’s sovereign plan. Yes, this includes heresies. Defining, sharpening, and filtering correct theology according to the Scriptures brings glory and honor to God. God does all things for that purpose.

One of the distortions of the doctrine of the Trinity that the Mormons are guilty is tritheism. What is tritheism? It’s simply this:

  • The concept of the Triune God (3 in 1) cannot be rationalized so it should be rejected.
  • There are three separate Gods who are equal and who are united in purpose.
  • Each God is distinct and separate.

Mormonism rejects the unity of substance between the Persons in the Trinity and especially emphasizes each Person as being distinct and separate (according to Joseph Smith). Christianity affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, but the Persons are not distinct and separate (as two words together) because the Persons cannot be separated due to their having the same nature. Mormonism states the doctrine can’t be understood rationally by human beings; therefore, the doctrine should be rejected. The belief in a plurality of gods is polytheism and is at the core of the tritheism heresy. Joseph Smith was very clearly a proponent of tritheism:

I will preach on the plurality of plurality of Gods…I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personage and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! We have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural (History of the Church 6:474).

Smith further stated:

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow – three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God – he would be a giant or a monster (History of the Church 6:476).

I heard a popular philosopher describe the Trinity as the three-headed Roman and Greek mythological creature named Cerberus. Maybe this is what Smith had in mind.

Smith’s ridicule based on his human rationale doesn’t make the doctrine false. This rationalization of the nature of God has led the Mormons astray in other ways as well based on Smith’s sermon. Smith’s teaching of a plurality of separate Gods is contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Mormons attempt to rationalize from the Bible what they cannot understand. However, Mormons don’t apply this same process to some of their own doctrines that they believe are beyond the human mind to comprehend. However, they readily acknowledge their own doctrinal headaches that result from attempting to rationalize a god hatched in the mind of Joseph Smith and given to the Mormon people. Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt gives us a good example:

We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previously heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. (The Seer, p. 132)

The Bible is very clear throughout the Old and New Testaments that there is only one God (Deut 4:35; 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6, 8; 45:5-6, 21-22; 46:9; Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor 8:4-6; Eph 4:4-6; 1 Tim 2:5, etc.). Yes, there are gods and lords, which are idols, but they are not God by nature (Gal 4:8). Mark 12:29 is especially important because Jesus is quoting The Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4. If anyone would have known whether there were other gods out there it would have been Jesus Christ, and He affirms that there is only one God. God, the Eternal Sovereign, had rightly chosen not to reveal all things pertaining to His Being and purposes to mere human beings. What should have humankind stumped and giving God praise continually is that He chose to reveal anything about Himself to us; He certainly didn’t have to! He could have left the entire human race in its sin without any Savior to redeem it from its rebellion. God is not under any obligation to human beings. Joseph Smith would not accept what God said in Deuteronomy 29:29:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

It appears that Smith wanted all things revealed by God in order to accept it on faith based on the revealed Scriptures. Mormonism has very clear verses in their scriptures that attest to there only being one God, and yet states that this is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That sounds very Trinitarian:

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end (D&C 20:28).

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen (The Testimony of the Three Witnesses [to the Book of Mormon]).

Mormons will say that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three Gods that are united only in purpose but not nature or substance. However, our Mormon friends cannot demonstrate from the Bible or the Book of Mormon three separate Gods that are united only in purpose. The Bible clearly reveals one God revealed in three Persons united in nature, eternality, and purpose. Mormonism’s rejection of the Trinity while embracing tritheism will continue to segregate this 19th century religious movement from historical, orthodox Christianity.

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99 Responses to The Trinity: Mormonism’s Rejection of God’s Highest Revelation (Part 4 of 4)

  1. falcon says:

    When my daughter was middle school age she liked to watch a TV show called “Carissa Explains It All”. I think Mormons would like to think that their prophets are like Carissa, able to explain it all. Unfortunately Carissa couldn’t “explain it all” and neither can the Mormon prophets. And yet this is the big selling point for Mormons regarding their religion. They have this one man, a sort of Moses figure, that leads them and provides them with information coming directly from their Mormon god.
    No, Carissa couldn’t explain it all because she had the maturity of a girl in her very early teens. She hadn’t experienced much of life and her perspective was that of an adolescent girl.
    That Mormons have settled on the words of a guy who was clever enough and from all accounts, had a certain personal flair, but was obviously a prevaricator of world class portion, is sad. He wasn’t even a very good heretic. He would have been laughed out of Nicea and bonked on the head with his magic rock.
    The huge point that Mormons miss is that the Jews were/are monotheists. Can our Mormon friends point us to a Jewish sect today that claims to have many gods. The point of the Jews, with the call of Abraham in the twelve chapter of Genesis was that they were different from their neighbors. They had been chosen by the One God to be his people.
    There are not three gods. Christians aren’t imposing an idea on the Scriptures. The Scriptures are plain, there is One God. He is eternal. God doesn’t bother to explain it all to us. He just lays it out there like when he told Moses, I AM. That’s it. Accept it. I don’t owe you an explanation. I’m God!

  2. falcon says:

    This is the problem that Mormons have, it’s the source of their information regarding the nature of God. Who do they trust? Well Joseph Smith of course. I don’t know where or when it was, but some time between Smith’s first telling of the first vision story and the eighth rendition of the tale, he came up with two “personages”, God the Father and Jesus. Now that ought to be enough for anyone to walk away with a firm “No thank you” to Smith’s claim. The Bible is clear about who the Father is. It’s clear about who Jesus is. It’s clear about who the Holy Spirit is. The Bible runs contrary to what Joseph Smith says he saw. So who you going to believe? For me it’s a no brainer.
    But Mormons are taken with the Smith story. It flips an emotional switch within them. I had just turned on the Catholic Radio station the other day and missed a little snippet they had just talked about regarding some appearances which are taking place some place. The name of the place was unfamiliar to me but I’m guessing the occurrences are pretty standard stuff.
    When I encounter things like this, I run them through my little decision making model regarding spiritual phenomenon. If what’s going on draws people to Jesus, gets them to commit to Him and lead a life consistent with godliness, then I just sort of give it all a pass. But if all of a sudden we have some guru emerge and what the guru is teaching is inconsistent with sound doctrine, I label it a fraud.
    Joseph Smith does not pass the smell test. The odor that emanates from his claims tells us the quality of the product.

  3. falcon says:

    OK, being the resourceful type that I am, I found this latest visionary claim. A person can learn much about it by accessing this site.
    http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/the-10-secrets.html
    From another site we learn:
    “Since 1981, in a small village named Medjugorje in Bosnia-Herzegovina (map), The Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing and giving messages to the world. She tells us that God has sent her to our world and, these years she is spending with us are a time of Grace granted by God. In her own words she tells us, “I have come to tell the world that God exists. He is the fullness of life, and to enjoy this fullness and peace, you must return to God”.

    “Since the apparitions began in 1981, millions of people of all faiths, from all over the world, have visited Medjugorje and have left spiritually strengthened and renewed. Countless unbelievers and physically or mentally afflicted, have been converted and healed. You owe it to yourself and your loved ones, to investigate with an open mind and heart the events which are occurring in Medjugorje.”

    http://www.medjugorje.org/

    So what has this got to do with our current topic, the nature of God. Only this, who do you trust in giving you the revelation of God concerning His Son and what He has done for us; God’s plan of salvation?
    Here we have a situation where countless numbers of people are making pilgrimages to a site, where it is claimed, that Mary is appearing giving “secrets” to some visionaries. Now why wouldn’t Mormons trust this for example? They are trusting that Joseph Smith told them who God is, especially the Father. According to Smith the Father is a former man who became a god just like millions perhaps billions of other men.
    It’s the preposterous notion of this that grabs Mormons.

  4. parkman says:

    “For example, the heresy of Marcionism forced Christians to carefully examine those books written by the apostles or other inspired writers that were authoritative, which brought about the canon of inspired Scripture. Regarding creeds, the Christians were forced to examine their beliefs in light of Scripture, forming creedal statements of belief that conversely resulted in a rejection of heretical teachings. The ancient creeds of the Christian Church are merely statements of belief that are based on Scripture. The Church is defined by what it believes.”

    Andy, Thank you for finally stating, in a roundabout way, that your accepted church leaders have authority from God to speak for God; even after what you accept as the canon of scripture was closed.

  5. Mike R says:

    Andy, I don’t want to forget to thank you for sharing all this information with us , so
    thank you .

  6. Andy Watson says:

    Mike,

    You’re welcome, and thank you for your participation along with many others. It was a real blessing and honor to be asked to do this project. I can’t think of any higher privilege than to be able to share the glorious truths about our triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Our salvation would not be possible without each Person working within their role and yet united in essence/nature. Christians wouldn’t be able to even discuss or understand these things unless a supernatural work by the triune God had been done in our lives. All glory and praise is due to our God!

    I hope that Christians have found the information to be faith building and informative. It is my prayer that this same information will be used by God to open the ears and eyes of the Mormons to the true God that they reject in favor of Joseph Smith’s god. The Mormons who have read this have been afforded a very special privilege through the providence of God to learn the biblical and historical facts related to the doctrine of the Trinity that they reject in favor of tritheism (whether they acknowledge it or not – they are tritheists). God will use this information to either soften or harden their hearts. I pray that it will be the former.

  7. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    And what exactly are you insinuating by this comment?

    “Andy, Thank you for finally stating, in a roundabout way, that your accepted church leaders have authority from God to speak for God; even after what you accept as the canon of scripture was closed.”

    I really don’t get your point. Does the Pope get messages from God and then speaks them to the Catholic people? Here’s the deal. God speaks directly to me as I guess He probably does to every Christian who posts here.
    Pretty sad, I think, that Mormons need to have some guy sitting in a big chair, in a huge office on top of a big building in Salt Lake City getting messages from the Mormon god to speak to them. Mormon prophets have a miserable record perhaps only out done by the Jehovah Witnesses for total futility.
    The Church Fathers had a lineage traced back to the apostles. Mormons can trace their history back to about 1829 to a guy claiming he heard from God. As I’ve pointed out, there have been numerous claims as to this by others through out the centuries. As my above posts indicate, there a six people in a little village today who are claiming that they will each receive ten secret messages from the Virgin Mary who appears to them on a regular basis. Millions have traveled to that place to witness what’s going on there. I would think that Mormons would be very interested in this.
    Paul talked about people who go on ego trips claiming visions they have seen. I could be kept busy all day posting information on such happenings. Joseph Smith should be turned down on many factors but the fact that he manufactured his own god is a primary reason.

  8. Andy Watson says:

    Andy, Thank you for finally stating, in a roundabout way, that your accepted church leaders have authority from God to speak for God; even after what you accept as the canon of scripture was closed.

    Parkman, this is all you have to say out of all the material and documentation presented in this article? I guess I’m a little surprised. Your silence on many of the issues within these four articles speaks volumes. Nevertheless, thank you for your response and participation. I’d like to address your talking point and try to connect this issue of authority, the canon of Scripture, the Trinity, and the Council of Nicea all in one post. After all, I must because the moderator has warned us all about going off-topic. I have already answered some of these issues in other posts. I don’t know if it was you or Shem who said in a post that you weren’t reading my posts. If that is the case, then we are wasting our time. You are only talking to yourself by making talking points and asking questions if you don’t want answers or explanations. Other readers will gain from it whether you do or not. I do hope you are reading my responses, because I have given you detailed, lengthy responses to your bullet points.

    Parkman, I’m not real fond of “roundabout ways” when you want to decipher some supposed hidden statement or agenda coming from me. I don’t know how much more clearly I can be in my articles and posts. Diversions and spins are noticeable by all. With that said, let me make it even more clear what I am saying in your quote.

    Read this if you don’t read anything else: Church leaders (bishops at that time) were ordained and accepted as leaders of the church because of their orthodox doctrine, faithfulness to Christ, Christian service, spiritual gifts, and many other reasons. They have authority from God to proclaim what God has said in His Word (preaching of the gospel) and to enforce discipline when that Word is disobeyed or when heretics try to corrupt it (church discipline). These are the keys of authority (Matthew 16:19). These early church fathers and Christian pastors today DO NOT have the authority to add to Scripture or proclaim new revelation outside of Scripture supposedly coming from God. They simply state boldly and forcefully what God has already said in His Word (what we know as the Bible) that is applicable for people today and in future generations until the Lord Jesus Christ returns. The canon of Scripture is closed – no doubt about it. The gospel has been fully preached (Romans 15:19). The Scriptures are God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16). The Bible takes humanity all the way to the eternal state. How much farther does it need to go?

    Parkman, I have told you this before, but let allow me to say it again in a different way: neither you nor your General Authorities have any authority coming from the living, sovereign, triune God – none; zero. Sure, you can have authority in a worldly sense, but you and the GA’s have no spiritual authority. I’m going to tell you why. I want you to open up your LDS KJV Bible. That’s right, Parkman. The New Testament canon of 27 books that was fully, finally, and officially declared so by Athanasius in A.D. 367 in his Easter/Festal letter to Christendom. If you have a problem with the canon, then you have a problem with your LDS KJV Bible. Like I said before, contact your bishop and call a special conference if your religion would like to ditch the KJV Bible. The Christian world would really appreciate it if the LDS religion would do so just like the Community of Christ Mormons did when they switched to the JST (Joseph Smith Translation) and turned in their KJV Bibles. Moving on…open it up to John 1:12 (page 1325 in my LDS KJV Bible). The text:

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

    Notice note “b” right before the word “power.” Look down at the footnotes in your LDS KJV Bible. This is note 12b. What does “power” mean? It means “authority, right.” This is the Greek transliteration word exousia. Who has authority and who doesn’t? Would you say that is the key question in your mind? It seems to me this is the case.

    Mormons have no spiritual authority from God for this simple reason: they have not received Christ – the true Christ; Mormons are not children of God. Only those that receive the true Christ in saving faith and repentance are given authority by Him to become the children of God. Mormons say that everyone is a child of God. Why do we have “to become” something we already are? Look at John 8:42. If a person rejects Mormonism, then is that person still a child of God? The text says this isn’t the case. No, these are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). The Bible makes a clear distinction between the children of God and children of the devil (1 John 3:10). Parkman, if you want authority then you’re going to have to become a child of God through faith in the real Christ – not the false christ of the Mormons. That goes for the LDS leadership as well. You have no authority and no priesthood. Don’t be deceived and don’t believe a spiritual fantasy/lie.

    Are there other types of authority within the one authority given by Christ to His people? Yes, this would be those who hold church office: elders and deacons (1 Tim 3; Titus 1). Let’s go back a little farther to the gospels and Christ’s earthly ministry. We have covered this before. Jesus gave the apostles the authority (the keys) to proclaim the gospel of God and exercise church discipline (Matthew 16:19). When both of these are done it is bound or loosed in heaven. This authority was passed on to other bishops and presbyters in ordained leadership roles in the church who came after the apostles died. The children of God have authority; the bishops and presbyters have additional authority because of their church office in shepherding the flock of God in their local churches. I want to make that very clear. Also, I’m not talking about apostolic succession as proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church.

    Now, let’s start to bring this all together. As the books of the Bible were brought into acceptance by God’s people, they were scrutinized by the bishops. I cannot and will not get into the selection criteria that were involved in bringing this about. It’s way off-topic. However, the final declaration of the New Testament canon was made in A.D. 367 and accepted by the bishops, presbyters, and people of God. Again, Mormons have the same canon. Mormonism claims Christianity was apostate at this time, but they accept the canon of Scripture that supposedly came out of that apostasy. Parkman, can you explain that?

    These bishops who had been given authority by Christ not only by spiritual regeneration, thus making them the children of God, but also their being in ordained leadership roles within the church gave them the privilege and important responsibility to oversee the affairs of the church. This is one of the titles of an elder/bishop: overseer. They tend to the spiritual matters of the church. Arius brought heresy into the church. The bishops gathered and exercised both keys. They proclaimed the truth of God’s Word by preaching the deity of Christ; they enforced church discipline on Arius and his followers, thus removing them from the church. It was bound on earth and in heaven. Remember what I said happened to Arius when he tried to come back into the church? If you didn’t read that little history tidbit then go back and read my posts to you or Shem on Tuesday night. The outcome of Arius is the epitome of church discipline (according to the Eastern Church).

    These same bishops declared that Jesus was fully God and equal to the Father in one substance/essence. This took place at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325. The Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 was also led by bishops given the authority to preach/proclaim the truth of God’s Word and to exercise church discipline. Those who had real authority given to them by Christ by regeneration and ordination to church office proclaimed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in substance/essence; all three Persons are distinct; all three Persons are fully and equally God. These conclusions were gathered not out of thin air, Parkman. They were gathered and proclaimed because the bishops were reading the New Testament manuscripts themselves and merely stating what God had already said in His Word! This wasn’t new revelation. It was defining what had already been revealed in Scripture but had not been formally declared up until this time. The reasons for this have already been given. I’m not going to repeat it here.

    Parkman, much of what I have said here has already been stated. You can reject, rebel, criticize, blaspheme, ridicule, stomp your feet, shake your fist to the heavens, pound the keyboard, and yell at the top of your voice your vitriol against the doctrine of the Trinity and authority given to God’s children and especially it’s ordained leaders. Millions before you have done so and have perished. Sadly, many will after you. It doesn’t change what God has said in His Word. He has given us His Word; He has spoken; creatures are accountable to God because of their sin and rebellion from birth (Rom 5:12).

    Parkman, I have spiritual pity for you. I can only imagine the spiritual weight that must be coming down upon your head after having to deal with this subject for the past two weeks. You’ve seen some biblical and historical documentation. We actually didn’t get into the biblical texts on many issues of the Trinity because nobody asked. I’m surprised that you, Shem, or Ralph didn’t ask. Ralph has in the past and it was dealt with then.

    I picture you as a man who doesn’t know how to swim and has just been flung into the deep end of the pool and you are now thrashing about trying to keep your head above water even though you are starting to sink. Parkman, God in His providence has been especially kind and revealing to you about Himself and His nature through this journey the past two weeks. I am only a slave of Christ who did the research, study, wrote the articles, and answered the questions. Millions of Mormons before you never heard, knew, or read any of this documentation. They had nothing to ponder or consider. It is my prayer that someday soon or even today you will call upon the real God to save you. You certainly can’t save yourself and nobody else can save you. It’s all God’s work – a triune work of God. God commands the world to repent and believe in Him. Heed carefully the words of Jesus when it comes to repentance (Luke 13:3) and coming to the Father (John 14:6). You want authority? Receive the real Jesus Christ who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity; very God of very God; fully equal to the Father; one God in substance, nature, and essence (John 1:12).

  9. Clyde6070 says:

    Gee Andy
    Church leaders (bishops at that time) were ordained and accepted as leaders of the church because of their orthodox doctrine, faithfulness to Christ, Christian service, spiritual gifts, and many other reasons. They have authority from God to proclaim what God has said in His Word (preaching of the gospel) and to enforce discipline when that Word is disobeyed or when heretics try to corrupt it (church discipline).
    Not From what I have been reading. These same bishops saw power and seized upon it. They were able to control the Emperors by denying them communion. There was no separation of church and state. Some Bishops were even elected by there congregation. Some where along the way religious tolerance was lost. You seem to be seeing an ideal and not seeing what really happened.

  10. falcon says:

    clyde,
    I think if you’re going to post information as you have here, we insist that you provide names, dates and the source of your information.
    Andy has done a very thorough job here and is known for his precision. Than you show-up, make a few charges and think you’ve made a point. A point yes, substantiated in any way, no. So I think we’d all like to have you take the time and effort to flesh out your post.

  11. falcon says:

    clyde,
    Another thing. Are you going to address the doctrine of the Trinity? You’ve favored wanting to talk about the political situation in the first four hundred years of church history, but from what I can see you really haven’t weighed in on the specifics of the doctrine of the nature of God. You’re post wants to take us in the direction of the separation of church and state and the influence religious leaders have within the political realm.
    Let me ask you a question and it’s pure speculation none-the-less I’ll ask it. Does the LDS church have any influence on politics in Utah; local or state?
    Context in historical matters is everything.

  12. Andy Watson says:

    Clyde,

    I listed several of the reasons why the bishops and presbyters were ordained to church office (in the eyes, heart, and minds of the people who wanted them there). This certainly doesn’t mean that all of those who held church office were there for noble reasons. You obviously think I am naive enough to believe that all these men were so spiritually upright that they were beyond any human fault. Nothing could be further than the truth. These bishops, presbyters, and the church fathers in general were fallible, sinful human beings with many faults in character. They often did not agree with each other on certain issues apart from the central orthodox teachings of the faith. Many of these church fathers knew their faults and openly admitted them. For example, Tertullian was a lawyer by secular profession. He was very polemic in his writing style to heretics and freely admitted that he lacked patience. He wrote a book entitled De Patientia (Of Patience) because he thought that he better write about something that he needed.

    The purpose of these articles was not to teach Christian church history. At most reputable Christians seminaries this is a year-long study. It would be impossible and unwarranted for me to give you all the “nitty gritty” that you probably desire and wish to relish upon to somehow justify your reasons for believing in Joseph Smith and his religion of the 19th century. Believe me, it’s not all pretty when it comes to Christian church history. There were many things that I learned that had me shaking my head in disgust and disappointment. Any study of humankind whether secular or religious is filled with tragedies and corruptions along with victories and moral uprightness. If you would like a resource of reputable Christian history books to read, then I would happy to supply those along with books for further reading on the doctrine of the Trinity.

    All one has to do is go to the book of Genesis and see how God has always accomplished His purposes through the sinfulness of human beings. All of the great prophets in the Old Testament up to the Lord’s apostles in the New Testament were sinful and fallible human beings. A sovereign God is not held hostage by His creatures. God ordains all that will take place. These are His eternal decrees. Nothing is left to chance. All that takes place results for God’s glory. In Christianity this is called the doctrine of concurrence or compatibility. God is sovereign and man is responsible. An example of this is seen in Genesis 50:20. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was planned/predestined by the Father before time came into existence (Acts 2:22-23; 4:27-28). All things are fixed by the Father (Acts 1:7).

    Clyde, regarding church and state, you are trying to read the American Constitution back into church and secular history. It simply wasn’t that way back then on some levels. Many governments decided what would be the religion of the country. That didn’t mean that all the people abided by that law; many did not and suffered persecution. The church fathers, bishops, and presbyters were not politicians. They were church leaders. Yes, church affairs did impact the state affairs because religion was a key area in people’s lives at that time, and it affected the peace and tranquility of the nation when there was unrest. I thought I explained that regarding the issue of Theodosius. Let me address your point about him.

    Clyde, if you would have read carefully what I wrote about Theodosius you would have come away from that discussion learning that Theodosius was a politician – not a bishop of the church – big difference! Theodosius I was denied communion (The Lord’s Supper) by Ambrose (church bishop) because Theodosius had committed grave sin and was unrepentant at that time. Theodosius was a member of the church and fell under the church authority of Ambrose. Ambrose possessed those “keys” given to Him by Christ (as was discussed earlier). Theodosius was not in possession of those keys. Ambrose has a God-given responsibility and charge to enforce discipline upon those in the church that were in unrepentant sin. Theodosius was not above God’s law. Theodosius was rightly denied the Lord’s Supper because he was under church discipline. Ambrose was extremely brave in standing up to Theodosius.

    In true Christian churches when someone comes under church discipline the first thing that will take place is a denial of the Lord’s Supper of that person until that person has repented of his or her sin. This is called “fencing the table.” There is a serious warning to those who partake of the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner and why all must examine themselves before partaking (1 Cor 11:27-32). Church leaders (elders, bishops, etc.) are charged with making sure this happens; they are responsible for protecting the Lord’s Supper; they are held accountable to God for their actions. Those under church discipline are not allowed at the table for their own protection and for the protection of the church in general. Coming under the judgment of God is not something to be desired.

    Clyde, you are free to read and view church history any way that you desire. What should impact you the most is the reality that in Mormonism you have no church history past the 19th century? Who are your church “fathers” before Joseph Smith? It would scare the daylights of me if I looked out on the cliff of history and saw no bridge of connection. If I had seared my conscience and given myself over to Joseph Smith’s lies and a belief in his false god on/near Kolob, then I wouldn’t like church history either. I would do all that I could to distort, spin, trivialize, or dismiss all that took place before the birth of Joseph Smith in 1805. Church history for the Mormons begins in the 19th century. That is disturbing and shocking. You can close your eyes and pretend it’s not there or wish it would all go away like a bad dream after you wake up. However, that is not reality, and I encourage you to face it head on.

    Just like Parkman, with all that has been said about the doctrine of the Trinity, the two of you have decided to follow a rabbit trail of your own creating and fall in it head first. For Parkman it was the canon of the Bible. For you it was Theodosius. I simply do not understand this. Like Parkman, you are thrashing in the deep end of the pool all the while you are sinking under the weight of the water. God has made Himself very clear in His Word who He is and how He is to be worshipped. You are free to reject it, but then you are responsible for the repercussions. God will accomplish His purposes in redemptive history through heresies and heretics in general. God also accomplishes His purposes through the sinfulness of human beings in the Christian church. God has done this since the beginning of time when man was created and He will continue to do so until He brings human history to an end.

  13. falcon says:

    So Andy has done a marvelous job of explaining the Trinity and obliterating the claim of Joseph Smith that 1) there was a great apostasy after the death of the apostles and 2) there was, therefore, a need for a restoration of “original” Christianity.
    The problem is that Mormons have no evidence for their claims. There is no evidence that Mormonism, in any of its various forms, existed in the first century Church. There is ample evidence, as Andy has demonstrated, that the early Church taught and believed in monotheism as did the Jewish religion from which Christianity emerged.
    Mormons deny the divinity of Jesus. They like their brethren the Jehovah Witnesses see Jesus as a lesser being, a creation.
    There is no Biblical foundation for the Mormon premise of men becoming gods and ruling their own planetary system along with their goddess wives. Pure nonsense is this notion and a denial of Christ. This abomination was even too much for a couple of Mormon sects that initially followed Joseph Smith.
    It’s very difficult for those who buy the Smith story to give it up, as it is for any people who follow a guru who has a new message, revelation and vision for the church today.
    The view of who Jesus is goes back to the early Church that proclaimed Him the Son of God, born of a Virgin, suffered, crucified, died, buried, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and will come again to judge the living and the dead. It is through faith in Him and His vicarious death on the cross that we put our trust in for eternal life. Only God can atone for sin. Denial of Jesus’ as God incarnate comes with a cost. It’s eternal separation from God.
    There’s a better way. Trust Jesus!

  14. Mike R says:

    It’s paramount that the Mormon people realize that Jesus loves them so much that He long ago
    warned everyone to “Beware” of men in the latter days who would come claiming to have
    exclusive anointing from God to teach new truths that had been lost —truths necessary for
    salvation . Men claiming to have exclusive insight from God to reveal His mind and will to
    mankind were to be tested in the apostles time [ 1 Jn 4:1 ] and in these latter days [Mk13:23].
    Mormon prophets claim to be God’s exclusive mouthpiece in these latter days . This thread topic
    is so important since even Mormon apostles are in agreement with Jesus’ original apostles that
    knowing ” the truth about the nature of God and our relationship to Him is the key to everything
    else” [ Mormon apostle Dallin Oakes] . Thus it easy to see the absolute necessity that we
    have a correct understanding of our Creator for salvation —-Jn 17:3. What have Mormon
    apostles taught about our Creator , whom they referred to as the Trinity ? Soon after the birth
    of the Joseph Smith ‘s new church things started to deteriorate doctrinally . Preaching about
    God drifted into “Gods” , rumors of engaging in marriage relationships (polygamy) contrary to
    the church law on marriage by leaders , and finally Church leader and prophet Joseph Smith
    claiming he had a secret to disclose concerning a vital truth about God that had been long lost ,
    wrongly supposed for centuries : our Creator was a mere man , He had not always ruled as
    God ! This new insight , “revelation” , was then elaborated on by subsequent Mormon prophets
    [cont]

  15. Mike R says:

    cont.
    Where has this new insight about God that Mormon prophets have offered led ?
    Mormon leaders have made it very clear that they alone had the truth about God , that
    the Trinity which the other churches were singing to in their creeds every Sunday was
    not the true God , our Creator. Instead Mormon leadership after Smith declared to all
    that the true Godhead consisted of three separate Gods , and the identity of each was
    revealed exclusively by God to these latter days prophets . God the Father was taught
    to be a Man who together with His wives populated heaven with millions of spirit children ,
    the first such child was a male that grew to learn how to be a God and was called Jehovah , He
    was allowed to be a second member with His Father in a council– the Godhead , and He
    later came down to earth and was named Jesus. This council’s third member was another son
    who we know by the title Holy Ghost today, he also had to learn enough to become a worthy
    member of this council , the Godhead . This then is our Creator that Mormons offered as
    the true trinity. Brigham Young at one point even chose to reveal even more insight
    on their trinity by incorporating in the sacred Temple ceremony the teaching that revealed
    the name of the three creation Gods to be that of Elohim, Jehovah, Michael .Today
    Mormon leaders find it advantageous to keep some of the “restored truth ” about their
    Godhead from public disclosure. So we have a choice : the revelation in the Bible on our
    Creator or, the revealments by prophets in these latter days .

  16. parkman says:

    Andy,
    Your argument is good. As it stands it looks like you have “proven” your case.
    As long as you will not let me ask the important questions about it, it will continue to look good.

  17. parkman says:

    “Your silence on many of the issues within these four articles speaks volumes.”

    You, about how you and your people silenced me.

  18. parkman says:

    “Here’s the deal. God speaks directly to me as I guess He probably does to every Christian who posts here.”

    What do you do when your God says something different, then He said to you , to another of your type of Christian?

  19. parkman says:

    (Andy Watson says: December 7, 2012 at 12:25 am)

    You must be special; I only get 300 words at a time for 6 times per day, or 1800 words per day.

    You just used more than that in one post, and you get more posts.

    It is good to know that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” still holds true.

  20. parkman says:

    “Church leaders (bishops at thattime) were ordained and accepted as leaders of the church because of their orthodox doctrine…”
    You still leave me with the one big question, a question that was censored before.
    Except for your agreeing with these men, how are we to know they got it right?

    “…neither younor your GeneralAuthorities have any authority…”
    Again, other than you agreeing with them, how are we to know that the men you follow really have authority from God?

    “If you have a problem with the canon, then you have a problem with your LDSKJV Bible. Like I said before, contact your bishop and call a special conference if your religion would like to ditch the KJV Bible.”
    Making up stuff about me that is not true and making fun of my ways. It is easier to make me look bad then face the truth about your teachings.

    “…they have not received Christ – the true Christ…”
    I have received Jesus Christ, just not your defination.

    “Are there other types of authority within the one authority given byChrist to His people? Yes,this would be those who hold church office: elders and deacons (1Tim3; Titus1).”
    From where I sit, it looks like they only have athority IF YOU AGREE WITH THEM.

    “The children of God have authority; the bishops and presbyters have additional authority because of their church office in shepherding the flock of God in their local churches. I want to make that very clear. Also, I’m not talking about apostolic succession as proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church.”
    Except for your agreeing with them, how do you know it the people leading you are true leaders?

    “Parkman, can you explain that?”
    Don’t need to, if you really knew LDS teachings you would know the answer is already out there.

  21. Parkman — Andy is special. ;^) As author of the blog post he has the freedom to respond to his critics and defend his arguments however he deems best.

  22. falcon says:

    Parkman wrote:
    “What do you do when your God says something different, then He said to you , to another of your type of Christian?”

    You really need to read the Bible! Your problem is you have out-sourced your spiritual development to a bunch of men who also are clueless about the Bible and the Christian traditions. I’ll help you out a little bit here.
    First of all read First Corinthians 12:1-14. I’ll pray that God gives you understanding of this but since you do not recognize Jesus for who He is, I’ll just have to trust that God will over ride your stubbornness and seared mind and open the Scriptures for you.
    Then read First Corinthians 14: 26-33.
    Here’s the deal. My conviction is that someone really needs to be born again by the Spirit of God to spiritually appraise spiritual things. Unless God opens up your intellect and spirit, none of this will make any sense to you. But again, I’ll pray and I’ll know based on any response you give if God gave you understanding or if he’s just given you over to the spirit that guides Mormonism.
    Finally, I’d think you’d have learned something here since the time you first showed up. That statement/question of yours has been answered many times and in many different ways on this blog.
    When you say something like “your kind of Christian”, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have, over the years, fellow-shipped with Christians of all sorts of different denominations. I don’t think any of the Christian posters here belong to the same denominational group. I have no idea where Mike R. goes to church. I don’t know where rick goes to church. I know where Sharon goes and Andy has been hopping around quite a bit lately.

  23. Rick B says:

    Parkman said

    parkman says:
    December 7, 2012 at 4:20 pm
    (Andy Watson says: December 7, 2012 at 12:25 am)

    You must be special; I only get 300 words at a time for 6 times per day, or 1800 words per day.

    You just used more than that in one post, and you get more posts.

    It is good to know that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” still holds true.

    Hey man, Go back to the pit you came from, You have more than proven you dont care. I as do every one else, get 6 posts with a limit. The only ones who dont are the Mods. I have no problem with that. Also you and other LDS have stated before, You dont fully read the entire topic, but yet you believe your correct even though you dont read the entire thing.

    Also not only does your Silence speak volumes, But so does Shems and all other LDS. Like I said, After this topic is over and done, you guys will be back in full force posting the 6 post limit, crying that the trinity is false, yet refusing to even touch this topic. So yes your a troll who like the Bible says is a

    Jude 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

  24. parkman says:

    Andy, I see where you and yours get your training to use made up untruths to make up falsehoods about me and my church. Your follow your true teacher McKeever in his training as demonstrated in his latest podcast; “What If Mormanism Is False”.

    Better ask yourself, WHAT IF IT IS TRUE.

  25. Andy Watson says:

    Andy,
    Your argument is good. As it stands it looks like you have “proven” your case. As long as you will not let me ask the important questions about it, it will continue to look good.

    Parkman, you are free to ask any question you like as long as it pertains to the topic at hand (the Trinity). If you divert and don’t obey the rules, then your posts will not be approved by the mods. If you have serious questions then ask them. Time is running out on this series. I have answered every one of your questions repeatedly sometimes using the same sentences and words. If you don’t accept the answers given that is your choice.

    Thank you for the compliments on the articles. I do think this is a good entry level presentation on the subject. There are many people who could do a much better job than I did, but thanks nonetheless. My only objective and concern is to honor the Lord with these articles and the answers I have given in the discussions. God will use these articles to accomplish what He wants on His time frame.

  26. Andy Watson says:

    You, about how you and your people silenced me.

    Parkman,

    Everyone was warned to stay on topic including me. When the two of us failed to obey the mods our posts were deleted including mine in the first article on the Trinity and I’m the one who wrote it! Now it doesn’t get any fairer than that! There were several choices to be made after that reminder/rebuke by the mods: 1) heed the warning and don’t do it again; 2) ignore the warning and continue to go off-topic; 3) pout/sulk and disappear for a while. Parkman, you chose option #3. I chose option #1. You silenced yourself. Please stop whining.

  27. Andy Watson says:

    You must be special; I only get 300 words at a time for 6 times per day, or 1800 words per day. You just used more than that in one post, and you get more posts. It is good to know that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” still holds true.

    Parkman, you are given 1800 words per day and you are wasting them complaining and sniveling. I wish you would use your posts to discuss the content of the article. Nevertheless, let me fill you in.

    The mods gave me temporary blog privileges at my request when I wrote these articles. I asked to have unlimited posts and words for one reason: I wanted to be able to address and hopefully answer every question that was asked with very thorough and detailed answers. My motive was for the reader. I wanted there to be an opportunity to deal with every question with however many posts and words that would be necessary to give the reader the answer that he or she was seeking to get. In all honesty, I didn’t receive many of the questions that I thought I would (ex: demonstrate the deity of the Holy Spirit from Scripture; Old Testament proofs of triunity, etc.), and I received questions that I didn’t expect (ex: canon of Scripture; history of Emperor Theodosius, etc.).

    Go back and look at my posts on other articles in the past. I was under the same restrictions as a regular blog poster. These articles are finished. There are two days left for questions I’m guessing. On Monday morning Sharon will have another one of her great articles out for all to read and comment on. On Sunday night my temporary privileges will come to an end. So, Parkman, relax and please stop whining. People will not take your posts seriously if you keep this up. It’s actually quite ridiculous. We’re both wasting time going through this. Maybe this is your way again at diversion instead of having to discuss the real issues.

  28. Clyde6070 says:

    I sometimes forget that what is interesting about history is what you don’t know about. I’ve been reading a lot about Ambrose and Theodosius I. I find it very interesting when people like these are in power. But my reading is biased so if you would like to read more you might try looking up the book A.D. 381 by Charles Freeman. Good question for you What happened to all the Pagans and Arian christian?

  29. Andy Watson says:

    Andy, I see where you and yours get your training to use made up untruths to make up falsehoods about me and my church. Your follow your true teacher McKeever in his training as demonstrated in his latest podcast; “What If Mormanism Is False”.

    Parkman,

    For someone who doesn’t know me personally you seem to somehow know quite a bit about me. The fact is you don’t know. You don’t know where I received my “training.” If it’s formal Christian education, I don’t feel this is the location for me to give my bio. Regarding my LDS “training,” the answer would be the same. However, if I told you where and how I learned much of what I do about Mormonism I think you would be surprised. Matter of fact, I think you would be angry with your own church. (No, I’m not an ex-Mormon.)

    Nobody “made up untruths” about you. I don’t know what you are talking about. I’m afraid your attempt at claiming persecution isn’t going to pan out here. I don’t know you. My posts directed to you have been solely on your posts. I quote your posts at the top of my responses. I quote you accurately and then respond.

    Regarding your church, the persecution “card” isn’t going to work here either. Your false church/religion has been quoted and documented accurately. You are free to look up the references that I gave and check them for yourself. I’m not going to apologize to you because they don’t say what you like. Your leaders have spilled a lot of ink on a lot of paper since your religion came into existence on April 6, 1830 in Fayette, New York. I’m happy about that because I am able to read and quote them accurately. The only problem I have is logistically. My house isn’t big enough to store all the LDS books. Parkman, you can thank your church for that. They love my money so much that they gave me an account so I could buy all the books I want right from LDS Distribution in Salt Lake City with the LDS Church stamp and seal on the back. They didn’t care that I wasn’t a Mormon. All they cared about was if my credit card was valid. It’s a business. Wise up.

    My Teacher is the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). That is who I follow – the triune God. In regards to earthly teachers, I have the utmost respect for Bill McKeever. He is a great teacher and has been gifted by the Lord greatly in this capacity. I met him one time a few years ago. I have learned much from him in this field, and I have found his resources to be an asset to God’s people as they labor for the kingdom of God here on earth as it relates to those lost in Mormonism. Parkman, you know nothing about Bill McKeever. You don’t know where he received his training whether it be Christian or LDS. It doesn’t matter. None of this has anything to do with the doctrine of the Trinity topic! You are bearing false witness against people you know NOTHING about. Honestly, is this all you’ve got?

    Bill McKeever has devoted over 30 years of his life in ministry to the Mormon people. Parkman, I could only hope that someday you would have one single ounce of love and compassion for Christian people that Bill has for the Mormon people. You need to keep listening to Bill’s podcast. I don’t understand you. You seem to detest Bill, the MRM website, this blog, me, and now the podcast! Yet, you keep tuning in for more. Keep it up! We’ll be here until the Lord calls us home or until He returns, whichever comes first. Maybe one day the Lord will do a work in your life. Call out to him. As each day goes by you are only heeping up further judgment upon yourself. Many Mormons have come to saving faith in the real Jesus Christ through the ministry of MRM led by Bill McKeever. Bill will tell you that this isn’t works righteousness for him to gain favor with God; it’s gratitude and thankfulness for what God did for him all by grace through faith in Christ (in that order).

  30. falcon says:

    clyde,
    What does any of this have to do with the doctrine of the Trinity? You keep wanting to take this thread some place else other than to address the subject at hand. I guess if I were a Mormon and my whole reason for believing in a need for a restored gospel was getting regularly blown out of the water, I’d want to discuss something else also.
    As has been pointed out, the Mormons kept harping about the doctrine of the Trinity and when the opportunity avails itself to discuss it, they want to talk about something else.

    Parkman,
    ” I see where you and yours get your training to use made up untruths to make up falsehoods about me and my church.”
    As Andy said, quit your sniveling and write something of substance. What exactly is being made up about the Mormon church and you? No don’t answer. It’s just another attempt by you to take us off topic. You’re playing the persecution card. Next will come “I bear my testimony” and then you’ll disappear for a while. The fact that you are so shallow and without any real information to add to the discussion tells me you are a blind follower trapped in a false religious cult.

  31. Andy Watson says:

    Better ask yourself, WHAT IF IT IS TRUE.

    Parkman, I think it’s already been proven both biblically and historically just in this series on the Trinity that Mormonism isn’t true. Mormonism screams of heresy and untruth when the biblical light is shined upon it. Darkness can’t stand the light. The LDS prophets, apostles, new revelations and scriptures, and multiple heresies when scrutinized by God’s Word, the Bible, show Mormonism to be a damnable lie from the pit of hell and the “mouth” of the prince of darkness himself. Therefore, the title of Bill’s podcast is the correct statement.

    Lastly, and I know you would agree with this, Parkman. The Spirit of God has confirmed to me in my heart and mind by His Word, the Bible, that Mormonism is false. So, I bear you my testimony in light of this burning that I have within as it comes from God and me being one of His children who has been given that right and authority (John 1:12):

    1. I believe the Bible is the Word of God – not the Book of Mormon.
    2. I believe that the LDS Church is a false church.
    3. I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet.
    4. I believe that Thomas Monson is a false propeht in our times.
    5. I believe that there is only one God.
    6. I believe that there are three Persons who are called God.
    7. I believe that these three Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    8. I believe that each Person is distinct and not separate.
    9. I believe that each Person is fully God in nature, essence, and substance.
    10. I believe in the Trinity. Matter of fact, I love the Trinity.

    In the name of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior – Amen.

  32. Clyde6070 says:

    When you limit thought or you limit other ideas then you have a closing of the mind this is what happened around 400 A.D. The Trinity was the only thought people have of God and it has stuck with them ever since but that does not necessarily mean it is true. There’s something more to God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit than cramming them into that one idea. Because when you limit ideas you limit thought. I believe the glory of God is intelligence and we should not limit him to the one idea that could be wrong.

  33. falcon says:

    clyde,
    You don’t get it! You’re wandering about trying to attach yourself to a perspective in an attempt to avoid the topic at hand.
    Now given you’re perspective, all thinking on the nature of God is true. It’s just a matter of believing what you find satisfying. Let’s make Jesus a space alien visiting from another planet. Why not? We really don’t want to close down speculation do we?
    Not all thoughts on a subject are valid nor are they reliable. This is why we come back to the source of a person’s information and why we have heretics and false prophets.
    Why should we limit marriage to just one man and one woman. We need to be more open to the possibility that God intended other possibilities. Why limit our thinking to the monotheistic perspective of the Jewish people? Let’s open it up to more possibilities like millions and billions of gods and men becoming gods? Why just limit the Godhead to One God and three persons? Let’s open up to the possibilities of different combinations like one man who became a god and many women who are his wives.
    I think you ought to take your campaign for openness to other possibilities to the Mormon authorities and talk to them about some further speculation you may have regarding the doctrines of the LDS church.
    Bottom line is that in an attempt to try and legitimize Utah Mormonism in your own mind, you’ve come up with this idea that all ideas should be considered and that all things should be explored for possible truth. That sounds so open and accepting.
    How about this for a possibility. Joseph Smith was a practitioner of folk magic who utilized the techniques of this craft to create a religion. Are you open to this?

  34. Andy Watson says:

    Clyde,

    There has been no limitation and almost no boundaries when it comes to heretical ideas on the nature of God. There were certainly many of these heretical ideas going around before A.D. 400, and there are even more today. The Trinity wasn’t the only thought that people had of God. What do you think was taking place at the councils? The bishops were flushing out all the heretical positions in light of Scripture. Here a few that were prevelant up through A.D. 400:

    Montanism
    Marcionism
    Gnosticism
    Ebionism
    Arianism
    Sabellianism
    Tritheism

    There is one heretical religion that wasn’t around for the early church to deal with – Mormonism. That fact should bother you more than anything else. There is no Mormonism before Joseph Smith. It cannot be found. Many of the heretical positions dealt with in the early church are part of Mormon doctrine today (Arianism, tritheism, and some distinctives of Gnosticism). It’s too bad in some ways that Mormonism didn’t pop up in those early centuries. I would love to sit down and read what the church fathers would have said. They would have gone crazy writing against this false religion.

    You don’t like “cramming” a triune God into “one idea.” Well, how many ideas (heresies) would be sufficient for your liking? How many does the LDS Church allow you to have? They’ve certainly got one idea about who God is in the Bible (three gods; the Father has a physical body like Jesus, etc.). If you stray from that teaching you are in opposition to the church in Salt Lake City. You’re not a contractor who has a free license to believe and practice what you want within this religious system.

    The same goes for those who claim to be within Christianity. God is triune. I refer you back to the definitions and explanations given in the previous articles. Humankind cannot contain or box an incomprehensible, infinite Being. All we can do is understand and believe what has been declared by Him through His Word, the Bible, and worship this holy God. Those that reject the triunity of God are outside Christianity. There is no grey area or special allowances allowed. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the main pillars of the Christian faith. To leave that is to leave Christianity. This is what Mormonism and all the other cults, sects, and false religions have done. The doctrine of the Trinity separates and divides sharply those who believe and don’t believe this doctrine. A person who is claiming to be a Christian must believe in this doctrine if they want to be identified in this manner.

  35. falcon says:

    Yea clyde,
    We need to be more open to ideas about who God is and what His plan of salvation for mankind entails. We shouldn’t just limit ourselves to the Bible for our information. We should depend on revelation that is given to men who contend that God has called them as modern day seers, prophets and revelators for a lost message.
    We need to be more open to the idea that the Bible is not God’s final revelation to man. We ought to be open that God called a prophet and led him by an angel to some golden plates buried in the ground that tells a story of a vast civilization on the American continent peopled by Jews who traveled here by magic boats.
    We need to be open to an idea that this prophet used a magic rock that he put in his hat and by sticking his face in the hat, was able to decipher what was on the golden plates. We need to be open to these things, right?
    Don’t dismiss any speculation or thought or claim made by someone. All ideas are legitimate and need to be considered.
    Why not Greek and Roman mythology. That could be revelation.
    We need to be open to the idea that Free Masonry holds the truth and safe guarded the ancient rituals that were practiced by the first century Church. We don’t know do we, if this is true. We need to be more open.
    I think you, as a Mormon, need to be open to the possibility that the manifesto that ended polygamy is in error, that the Utah church has gone into apostasy, and that polygamy needs to be practiced now in order to reach the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom.
    Be open clyde!

  36. parkman says:

    “None of this has anything to do with the doctrine of the Trinity topic!”
    “Parkman, I think it’s already been proven both biblically and historically just in this series on the Trinity that Mormonism isn’t true.”

    Andy, the authority of those who you accept as true authorized leaders is the very basis of whether or not the manmade definition Trinity is God’s truth. There are very good articles that use historical facts that you leave out that prove that the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople were held by the men who were teaching the heresies and part of the ‘great apostasy’ you cannot find.

  37. parkman says:

    “My Teacher is the Holy Spirit (John 16:13).”

    I find that interesting given the way some of your posters ridicule readers of the Book of Mormon for following Moroni’s advice to pray for personal revelation about the book’s truth.

  38. Kate says:

    parkman

    Andy, the authority of those who you accept as true authorized leaders is the very basis of whether or not the manmade definition Trinity is God’s truth. There are very good articles that use historical facts that you leave out that prove that the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople were held by the men who were teaching the heresies and part of the ‘great apostasy’ you cannot find.

    Where can we find these very good articles? I would like to read them.

  39. Rick B says:

    Kate, as you know, this is very typical of Mormons. They tell us we are wrong, we are missing the facts, and then they tell us more information is out their, yet they never provide this information.

    Then as Andy said, Either Parkman or Shem said they did not read the entire article, I have seen Mormons say before many times on this blog, They did not read the entire topic or replys yet they are postive we are still wrong.

    I am going to guess that once newer articles are posted, all the Mormons who dodged this 4 part topic will be back in full force telling us were wrong and why, yet funny how they can do that with this topic, and when they do, thats all they can say, is we are wrong, yet provide no evidence as to why or how.

  40. falcon says:

    All I can say is that these Mormons sure are easy. What I mean by that is that any wild idea can come from the Mormon prophets and these folks lap it up like dogs dying of thirst.
    I would suggest that they come to the well of the Living Water which is Jesus Christ Himself. I marvel at how Mormons want to fight against Our Lord and Savior and make Him into some concoction that only a demented mind could come up with.
    Why in the world Mormons would choose the heresies and lies of a series of false prophets who were basically revealing the contents of their perverted minds is beyond me.
    Jesus is the truth, the way and the life. He said that no one could get to the Father except through Him. Jesus said that He was the Bread of Life; manna that came down from heaven. Instead of putting their faith and trust in Jesus, Mormons would rather feed on the stale, moldy bread of false teachers and prophets.
    Jesus gives rest to the weary. When we enter this rest through faith in Him, we have fellowship with the Father. There is no other name by which men can be saved. But the name must be attached to the Jesus who is revealed in the Bible as the second person of the Blessed Trinity.
    Peter told the crippled man, “Silver and gold I have none, but in the name of Jesus of Nazareth stand up and walk.”; and the man did walk.
    Mormons are in a crippled spiritual state. The only cure for this ailment of the soul is through the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

  41. Andy Watson says:

    I find that interesting given the way some of your posters ridicule readers of the Book of Mormon for following Moroni’s advice to pray for personal revelation about the book’s truth.

    Parkman, I’ll be happy to fully respond to this misconception on your part when the topic comes up in future articles. For now, what are your questions for me related to the Trinity specifically?

  42. falcon says:

    The authority for the Church came from Jesus. So we might ask, “Who or what is the Church.” The Church is made up of those who recognize who Jesus is and accept, by faith, what He did on the Cross. Who Jesus is, is God incarnate. What He did on the cross was shed His blood for our sins. Through faith, we become the adopted Sons of God, grafted in, as the apostle Paul wrote and explained.
    The Church Fathers did yeomen’s work in preserving the Gospel as Jesus had delivered it, “once and for all”, the Scriptures tell us.
    Almost immediately and certainly over the centuries, people have come forth with what they say is a new message, revelation or gospel. Paul also wrote about this as he specifically told Timothy and Titus to hold fast to the words of sound doctrine. Paul talked about men wanting to puff themselves up with stories of visions they had seen. Jude described these false teachers in specific terms.
    The Holy Spirit safe guarded the revelation of the gospel as it once and for all delivered to the saints (true believers).

  43. falcon says:

    Andy,
    I know you’ve spent a large amount of time with representatives of the Jehovah Witnesses over the years and according to your accounts they are putting their faith and confidence in their authoritative source, Watch Tower.
    This is similar to the Mormons who are putting their faith and confidence in their leaders, specifically the person who holds the title of “prophet”.
    Growing up Catholic, I put my faith and confidence in the nuns who taught me, the priest who heard my confession, said mass and administered the sacraments, the bishop, the archbishop, the college of Cardinals and finally the pope.
    At least, as a Catholic, I could reasonably assume that the lineage of leadership could be traced back to the first century Church. No doubt the Catholic church had some real reprobates in the papacy and the sale of indulgences was a hideous practice. However, I’ve always been impressed with the scholarship within the Catholic church even if I have problems with some of the doctrines and practices.
    When we look at the authority source within cultic groups, they can trace the source of their authority back to the men or women who started their particular movement. These folks assume an anointing and authority that they’ve never been given.
    As I said in my above post, Paul was continually telling his trainees to uphold the standard of sound teaching. See: First Timothy 6:3; Second Timothy 1:13-14; Second Timothy 2:2; Second Timothy 3:14-16; Second Timothy 4:2-3; Titus 1:9; Titus 2:1; and finally Titus 3:4-7.
    As a Christian, the source of my instruction is the Word of God. The error that groups like the Mormons and JW make is that they suppose they need some guru or some religious organization/system to tell them what to do, think and believe.

  44. parkman says:

    “This is similar to the Mormons who are putting their faith and confidence in their leaders, specifically the person who holds the title of “prophet”. Growing up Catholic, I put my faith and confidence in the nuns who taught me, the priest who heard my confession, said mass and administered the sacraments, the bishop, the archbishop, the college of Cardinals and finally the pope.”

    Falcon, I see no difference between what you speak of and what you are doing when you affirm that you accept and follow the teachings of the men you accept as authorized church leaders, both living and dead.
    You have just accepted different people to help you understand God’s Teachings.

  45. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    Think about what you’re saying. Some guy claims, after about eight renditions, that God the Father and Jesus appeared to him. Now you accept that as true even though it’s contrary to what the Scriptures say about God the Father.
    What we are required to do is to test the spirits and test those who say that they have special revealed messages from God. You keep missing the point. I’ll try again as have others regarding this four part series. The Bible tells us who God is. Jesus explained the Father. Jesus told the apostles that they would receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them; which He did on the Day of Pentecost.
    These sacred truths were entrusted to the disciples that Jesus chose and they in turn taught others. We have not only the writings of Scripture, but the commentaries by those who were in authority. To put it plainly and bluntly, it’s not a matter of simply picking who you want to listen to. You’ve made a very bad choice and one that can be easily proven to be heretical.
    It’s not a matter of picking who you want to follow and believe and declare them to be true because you desire to believe them. All you have to do is ask yourself if the Mormon prophets who you follow preach the Gospel revealed in the Bible and which is contained in the traditions of the Christian Church.
    Andy has given you the theology and the history regarding the Blessed Trinity. However you just don’t seem to be able to process the information. My guess is you aren’t even reading it. I would venture that you don’t want to because it would destroy what you have put your faith in.

  46. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    I’ve come across the type of thinking your exhibiting here by other Mormons at various times on this blog. It’s perhaps the weakest argument, among others. It’s the idea basically that everything is true because there are no definitive legitimate sources. There are many people, speaking forth various ideas and the fact that they believe them, makes them true, the reasoning goes.
    It would be one thing if we had no record, then everyone could claim legitimacy for what they want to believe. But the record is there and it’s extensive. It’s amazing to me that you, like other Mormons, will give over your spiritual life and destiny to a story that appeals to you despite the evidence that it’s a total fiction.
    It shouldn’t be surprising, I guess, because people do it all the time. I’ve provided extensive examples at various times on this blog of all sorts of visions and revelations that people claim to have had. There’s always a market niche for this type of thing.
    In the Book of Revelation, Jesus addresses the various Churches through the apostle John. In Revelation 2:20 a false prophetess is confronted. To the Church at Pergamum He addresses the same topic; Revelation 2:14 regarding false teachings and teachers.
    So this idea that you and clyde have been trying to promote that people should be open and accepting “ideas” would not rest well with Jesus. We know the truth. We don’t need to be open to new ideas. It’s that attitude that drove a lot of the religious experimentation that went on in America in the 19th century.
    In Revelation 3:20 Jesus gives the invitation to those who might come to know Him through faith. It is imperative that people get it right regarding who Our Lord is. Just any idea won’t do.

  47. Clyde6070 says:

    Andy
    I wish that your blog had gone deeper but the blog did not go that way and there’s no contrast with Arianism or any other of the early Christian sects that were there at the time.
    When you 1st mentioned triune and triune God I remember reading about triune or tri-unity of God and how to tri-unity and Trinity were somewhat used synonymously. I don’t remember where I saw the article and it is a bad time to research it since I’ve been very busy around Christmas time. But I had a very faint memory of it and that is why your article piqued my interest. Now it had very good documentation however I am prone to always say that history is interesting when you find out something that you don’t know.
    I find it interesting that so many different ideas of God were present 300 years after the death of Jesus. And I know more research can be done but time for me I an not oblige to do at this time. I have found a very interesting creed that was put out by some bishops in approximately 325 A.D.

  48. Clyde6070 says:

    In 357 A.D. a small group of bishops at Sirium drew up a creed and this is what the creed said.
    It is agreed that there is one almighty God and Father, as is believed throughout the whole world, and his only Son, Jesus Christ the Lord, our Savior: but there cannot be 2 Gods nor should that be preached, as the text runs. Therefore there is one God for all, as the apostles taught, and the rest agrees and can contain no ambiguity. But as for the fact that some, or many, are concerned with substance (which is called ousia in Greek), that is to speak more explicitly, homoousion as it is called–there should be no mention of it whatever, nor should anyone preach it. And this is the cause and reason, that is not included in the divine Scriptures, and it is beyond man’s knowledge nor can anyone declare the birth of the Son… For it is clear that only the Father knows how he begot his Son and his Son how he was begotten by the Father. There is no uncertainty about the Father being greater; it cannot be doubted by anyone of the fathers greater in honor and dignity and glory, in Majesty, and the very name of the father. For he himself witnesses. And nobody is unaware that this is Catholic doctrine that there are 2 persons of the father the son and of the father is greater than the son is subjected in common with all things which the father subjected to him; that the father has no beginning, is invisible, immortal and impassable; but that the son is born from the father, God from God, light from light, whose generation as son, as has been said already, no one knows except the father;

  49. Clyde6070 says:

    continued

    and that the son of God himself, our Lord and God, as it is said, assumed flesh or body; that is man from the womb of the Virgin Mary, as the angel foretold. As all the Scriptures teach, especially the teacher of the Gentiles himself, the apostle Paul, he took human nature from the Virgin Mary, and it was through this that he suffered. That is a summary of the whole faith confirmation of it of the Trinity should always be preserved, as we read in the gospel.

    This creed seems to be offering a compromise of what was being taught at the time but still uses the word trinity.

  50. Andy Watson says:

    Andy
    I wish that your blog had gone deeper but the blog did not go that way and there’s no contrast with Arianism or any other of the early Christian sects that were there at the time.

    Clyde,

    Arianism was discussed in all four articles either in the articles themselves or the discussions that followed. I gave you a list of the heretical movements that were popular during the first four centuries. If you were wanting a discussion about the differences between the heretical movements themsevles, then, no, that wasn’t discussed. I gave you the list. I encourage you to research them and compare. I’ll be happy to give you some Christian history book recommendations if you want them. The heresies continued and multiplied into the fifth century. The majority of these were predominately aimed at the Person of Christ.

    Ebionism
    Docetism
    Apollinarianism
    Nestorianism
    Eutychianism

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