On March 4th 2013 the U.S. Tax Court ruled that Mormon plaintiff George Thompson would not be allowed to consider his church tithe a “necessary expense” in regards to paying back taxes owed to the government. Mr. Thompson owes $883,000 in back taxes, which he intends to pay, over time. In deciding how much Mr. Thompson could pay per month toward this debt, the IRS looked at his income and expenses, determining that he could afford $8389 – if he did not pay his tithing. Mr. Thompson argued that his $2110 monthly tithe was a “necessary expense” and should therefore lower the amount of his monthly debt payment. But he didn’t convince the court, so his request was denied. (Find a pdf document of the court’s decision here.)
In the course of the case, Mr. Thompson cited the “necessary expense” rule — with a twist. The rule states that a necessary expense must either provide for the taxpayer’s health and welfare or the production of income. Mr. Thompson argued that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare.
How so? asked the court.
Mr. Thompson is a temple shift coordinator and stake scouting coordinator in the Mormon Church. He told the IRS that if he didn’t pay his tithing he would no longer be allowed to hold these callings, citing a letter from his bishop that informed him that if he didn’t pay his tithing he’d have to resign his Church positions. The court had little sympathy for this, saying callings are regulated by the Church and revocation of callings is solely a Church decision, unrelated to the interests of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue. (See here and here for more background on Mr. Thompson’s case.)
Mr. Thompson provided very little evidence to support his claim that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare, and the Tax Court seems justified in rejecting his claim. But that doesn’t change Mr. Thompson’s conviction that paying tithing to the Mormon Church is necessary for his spiritual well-being. What does he believe will happen to him, spiritually speaking, if he doesn’t pay his tithing?
Though the LDS Church Handbook of Instructions (2010) says members should expect nothing other than “the Lord’s blessings” from tithing (Handbook 1, p. 128), Mormon Scripture is rather more pointed:
“Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” (D&C 64:23, 24)
This sounds serious, as does this statement from past LDS President Joseph F. Smith:
“He [God] has said that those who will not observe it [tithing] are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 277).
In Mormonism, paying tithing is an important part of living a “celestial law.” And living the whole celestial law is necessary for spending eternity in God’s presence, in the celestial kingdom. Bill McKeever wrote of this,
“Another important aspect of celestial law is participation in the temple endowment ceremony. But herein lies the catch. In order to enter an LDS temple, it is necessary to obtain a temple recommend. A recommend is granted only when the Mormon has been found faithful in numerous categories, including tithe-paying. If a Mormon does not pay his tithes, he cannot get a recommend. If he cannot get a recommend, he cannot go to the temple. If he cannot go to the temple, he cannot go to the celestial kingdom; hence he receives damnation in the next life.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, another past Mormon President, quoted yet another past Mormon President to explain that anything less than a full 10% tithe was the same as no tithe at all.
“He has said that the man who fails to pay his tithing shall have no place among the people of God. Yet here are these Temples erected by the sacrifice of the poor, and to give recommends to parties who pay little or no tithing, how can you feel to take this responsibility? I could not. Part of a tithing is not tithing at all in the eyes of the law that the Lord has revealed.” (Joseph Fielding Smith quoting Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1940, 97).
In June 2011 Henry Eyring of the Mormon Church’s First Presidency wrote,
“To receive the gift of living with Him forever in families in the celestial kingdom, we must be able to live the laws of that kingdom (see D&C 88:22). He has given us commandments in this life to develop that capacity. The law of tithing is one of those preparatory commandments.” (“The Blessings of Tithing,” Ensign, June 2011, 4-5)
To sum up, Mr. Thompson’s church says (or implies) that one who fails to pay a full 10% tithe to the Mormon Church will be:
- Burned at Christ’s coming
- Deemed unworthy of an inheritance in Zion
- Unable to hold a temple recommend
- Designated a breaker of God’s law
- Without a place among the people of God
- Denied the eternal gift of living with God and family forever
According to past LDS Authority Bruce McConkie, this all amounts to “damnation” (Mormon Doctrine, 177).
If Mr. Thompson had told the court that neglecting his tithing would result in his eternal damnation the IRS might have had sympathy for his plight and agreed that, for a Mormon, tithing is indeed a necessary expense.
“Each one must give as he has decided in his heart,
not reluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver.”
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
The LDS Church will have little sympathy for him and he will be required to pay a full 10 percent off his gross income if he plans to keep his callings and to be a worthy temple recommend holder. I know this from experience. They will inform him to pay his tithing first and if he is starving or can’t cover bills then he should go on LDS Church welfare. He will be able to stay on the welfare as long as he needs to and will be encouraged to work at the cannery or the distribution center to work for the money and food given him. If he can’t find time to do the work, then it is not a requirement and he can still receive goods.
This is my personal experience with this situation. And I don’t want to hear from an LDS person on that this is the reason that I left. This happened years before I left and I sucked up my punishment and did all the Church asked of me and was an extremely active, full tithe paying Mormon for years after the experience. I did not even consider leaving the LDS Church years after this happened.
My husband and I had three young children, three and younger. We were full time students. My husband worked as well. We were having an extremely hard time making ends meet. We always paid our tithing but had a bad couple months of illnesses and hospitalizations and were rarely at church for two months. My husband and I had always paid tithing at church but since we hadn’t gone, he simply forgot. We didn’t say, “I’m not going to pay tithing because life is hard.” We just forgot. And actually I didn’t handle the finances so I didn’t know anything. This was right before Christmas. We went in for tithing settlement and said we were sorry about the 2 months and we were not going to make the mistake again. We were told to hand over our temple recommends immediately and we would have to earn them back in 6 months. I was told that if we came up with the money between now and then we could have our recommends back. We were so poor, so in debt (we had gone in debt to pay our tithing), we could not come up with the money. I cried for two months. I had never been “unworthy” to go to the temple. I couldn’t believe there was no mercy for us. So we went on LDS church welfare. Talk about a humbling experience. The Church had also agreed to pay one of our bills that we had already been late on. The check bounced! The bank called me and threatened to take our car. We came up with the money, so we didn’t lose the car, but I was surprised how there was no forgiveness for me but I was to automatically forgive the church for them not coming up with the money they promised. But I did forgive the LDS Church. We eventually got our recommends back. I moved on and didn’t think about any of it for a long time. Looking back, I think, that was insane!
Wow Jaxi, That breaks my heart.
That really takes the joy out of giving.
Our pastor doesn’t even want to know who in the body gives or how much they give. We don’t even pass a collection plate. He says it’s between us and God. I really like that because then it really is a form of worship. I don’t have anyone patting me on the back or sitting me down to talk about my giving and I like it that way.
“Mr. Thompson owes $883,000 in back taxes, which he intends to pay, over time.”
How did this man have a temple recommend in the first place? Did he lie in his temple interview about being honest with his fellow man? It’s dishonest not to pay your taxes and $883,000 is A LOT of back taxes.
Jaxi,
What a hard thing to go through. There truly is freedom in Jesus huh? I love 2 Corinthians 9:7
It’s truly between us and God. I can’t tell you how horrible I felt about myself for years because we weren’t able to pay a full tithe, how unworthy I felt. We paid tithing off and on but we never did go through the temple. A couple of years before I started researching, our bishop called us in and told us that if we would pay tithing he would give us a temple recommend. He said ” Let’s get you through the temple.” My husband had a lower paying job at the time and without going into detail, we have had major medical bills with one of our boys since he was born. I’m talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. We told him there was no way we could afford tithing and eat too. The bishop told us that we wouldn’t starve, potatoes are cheap. He and his family have lived on potatoes lots of times. My husband told him no thanks, we’ll feed our kids instead. This mentality is crazy. The thing here is that neither one of us were ready to go to the temple. We were active but not ready for the temple. All we had to do is pay tithing. He didn’t ask us anything else.
I can & do sympathise with you Jaxi, someone dear to me has been driven into debt by the LDS & if any Mormon here knew how it was done they would, if they had an ounce of Christian love in them, leave that abomination of a church.
Anyway, that’s a story for another day, for now I just want to say a few things about the tithe.
First, the Corporation tithe is NOT a scriptural tithe; it is the invention of a false church. Tithing in the Old Testament did NOT involve money; it was always produce of the land that was tithed.
Secondly, a tithe was NEVER expected from wage earners, the only persons who tithed were landowners & they certainly did NOT pay one tenth of their income, they paid one tenth of their profit.
Third, Christians are not commanded to tithe & it can be classed as a sin. Paul talks about free will offerings but NEVER mentions tithing. No matter what the corporation may claim there is not a single example of Christian tithing in the New Testament. Tithing began in the 6th Century but was never ordained by God.
The Corporation makes vast amounts of money by blackmailing people into paying them money, money that many can ill afford to pay as with Jaxis & Kates. I am certain, in fact I know, that Christ would condemn the LDS with the same words he used to the moneychangers “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.” Mark 11:17
Personally, I am with Kate in being surprised this guy was still allowed to work in the Temple after not paying these taxes for so long. Willfully not paying taxes is cause to have a temple recommend suspended.
I would also point out that he was still allowed to live on $10,000 a month, so he has plenty of money to pay the taxes and his tithing without any real detriment to his family. He actually seems more like a man who was trying to pull a fast one with the IRS and he needed to be called out on it.
Now, I make no comment on Jaxi’s experience. It is a sorrowing story. I will say that this would be a isolated incident. I have dealt with many Bishop on tithing, having had had times myself, and all of them have tried to work with me. I was a student living on financial aide for five years, with a wife and three small children. To make ends meet we received food stamps. I was surprised one day when the Bishop explained that we were supposed to pay tithing on those food stamps as well as on the grants we got. It was hard, but we were able to do it. During that time the church even paid our rent one month when we couldn’t pay it ourselves.
I have never had a bad experience is seeking financial help from the church. Nor have I had a problem in paying tithing. I went in one year and told the Bishop that I was a few hundred dollars short (due to the amount of food stamps we were getting). He appreciated my honesty and told me to just do better the next year.
Brewed
I am not sure you fully understand the tithing and the tithing settlement. There is record kept of what you give, yes. The settlement is held simply to verify that what the church record shows is accurate. You are then asked if you have paid the full tithe. You say yes and they good and that is it. It is not a time audit your income and intimidate you into paying. They never ask what your income is, and they never ask you to prove that you have paid the full tithe. That is between you and God. They only want to make sure their records are accurate, and that you are satisfied with what you have given.
Shem said to Brewed, “They never ask what your income is, and they never ask you to prove that you have paid the full tithe. That is between you and God. They only want to make sure their records are accurate, and that you are satisfied with what you have given.”
I’m not sure that is completely accurate. Some Church positions are required to show their income. At least that is what I have heard from some CES people.
Shem,
“To make ends meet we received food stamps. I was surprised one day when the Bishop explained that we were supposed to pay tithing on those food stamps as well as on the grants we got.”
This is ridiculous. If these grants and food stamps came from the government that means that tax payers supplied these for you. The fact that the LDS church says you pay tithing on government assistance is fraud in my mind. Those were provided for you to further your education and feed your family, not line the pockets of the LDS church. I’m sure you see it very differently. As a tax payer, I don’t mind in the least helping out struggling families, but don’t give that to your religious organization! Especially one that piddles away billions on a shopping mall! If you were using your own money to cover the tithing on the amount of food stamps you were getting then this is still an issue. Why should taxpayers have to support people so they can give a full tithe to their church?
You say Jaxi’s experience is an isolated incidence, how do you know? Please give references and witness accounts to back this up. I’m sure there are many Mormons who have had Jaxi’s experience just as there are many Mormons who have had your experience.
Shem,
I appreciate your sincere effort to clue me on LDS tithing. My point still remains. My pastor does not know when and if I tithe. Ever. Most churches appoint someone specifically for financial record keeping. This is to remove pride from giving. Like what Old Man said.
My BF in Utah has been going through some seriously tough economic times. Her husband was laid off and she was a SAHM with 7 kids, one with special needs. They always have to chose what bill to pay every month, they never have enough to cover everything. They live off of church aid almost completely as well as government aid and still their bishop tells them that they need to tithe. She wants to be able to continue going to the temple and worries that she will lose the blessings from God if they don’t tithe… That’s fearful giving not cheerful giving and it’s put them into serious bondage.
They are in massive amounts of debt, can’t pay their bills, and don’t have money for food, but they are still tithing. That is completely crazy to me.
They cannot get ahead and are forced into dependence upon the church. She couldn’t leave even if she wanted to because she feels she is in too big of debt to the Church. By her own personal opinion maybe, but that is a thought process I am well acquainted with amongst many of my friends back in Saint George.
Brewed said:
“That really takes the joy out of giving.”
Giving!? I’m inclined to call it extortion, or something like unto it. If the taxman had allowed for Brother Thompson’s line of thinking, the feds could have then been in a position to go after the LDS church under the RICO act. (I’m not quite serious, but almost.)
From Wikipedia:
“A racket is a service that is fraudulently offered to solve a problem [the problem is not being able to live in the presence of God with your family unless you pay tithing, the service is providing the necessary temple ordinances]. . . Conducting a racket is racketeering.
Particularly, the potential problem may be caused by the same party that offers to solve it, although that fact may be concealed, with the specific intent to engender continual patronage for this party.”
That last sentence is particularly telling. Pay money to the LDS church and your problem is solved. When the LDS church so thoroughly emphasizes pleasing God by ones actions and holds itself as the only channel for being with God and family throughout the eternities, it adds layers of conditions to the Christian notion of the eternal problem of sin and the Christ-solution as found in the New Testament. Thus the LDS church creates, in effect, an enhanced problem and then offers to solve it via its temple worship regimen, which is accessible through payment of money (among other things, of course). But if you don’t pay the money, you don’t have access to the problem solving service provided by the temple ordinances. No money, no saving ordinances. No saving ordinances, no eternity with God and family. That, my friends, is extortion and is, in effect, running a racket.
The universal problem of sin was, is, and ever will be solved by Jesus Christ and faith in Him only. It took me a while to grasp the contrast between the simplicity and directness of the Jesus message of the Bible and the layered, institutionally driven salvation message of Mormonism. When I did get my mind around that contrast, Mormonism was a goner in my life. It no longer had me. I have since found and experienced the incredible freedom that comes through grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Tom
How right you are, I said in an earlier post that the LDS so-called ‘tithe’ is nothing of the kind. Brewed was right to say it takes the joy out of giving, scripture tells us that God loves a cheerful giver & there can be no joy in being forced to live on the breadline by an obscenely wealthy Corporation. You also were right when you described it as extortion. The truth is it’s a doctrine dreamed up by the leaders of a false church as a means of making money It cannot be defended by an appeal to scripture because it bears no relation to scriptural tithing. For the Christian, tithing in any form, is not a requirement & has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation.
Oh but the leaders aren’t paid, right?! *Sarcasm*
Very very good points Tom.
This is just another case of manipulation by the “Church”.
I really wish I could get into the heads of the LDS church leaders so I could understand more clearly why they do what they do…
Former Mormons here : thanks for sharing your past experiences concerning yet another
example of how Mormon leaders, ” teach for doctrine the commandments of men ” , i.e. their
teachings involving tithing .
It does seem that the leaders at the top have created quite a sure fire way to ensure the funds
for their billion dollar empire ( and salaries) — just threaten rank and file members they won’t get
into the Temple to earn their future position as Gods if they don’t submit to their leaders on
tithing . But what makes Mormon teachings so egregious is the fact that Mormon leaders have
claimed to be the very same church that was established by Jesus through His apostles
2000 years ago , yet now supposedly “restored” in these latter days .
But the Mormon people deserve better . May they exchange their apostles for the ones that
served Jesus and ministered in His church after He rose from the dead and gave them power
to teach and to mentor .
Mormonism is not the answer .
Jaxi, you said, ” We were told to hand over our temple recommends immediately and we
would have to earn them back in 6 months .”
Hearing that just made me think of a saying I heard once : There is a huge difference in the religion
established by Joseph Smith compared to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Thank God you and multitudes of Mormons have experienced that difference !
I have the greatest respect for all Christians here, especially those who had the integrity to leave the LDS when it became clear to them that it was a false ‘church’ founded by a false prophet. Nevertheless, & I have no desire to cause offence, I say this to everyone reading this thread; Lets have a little understanding of what tithing is about. The Corporation money extraction scheme is NOT TITHING, they use the word to disguise the fact that they extract money from people under false pretences. Biblical tithing hasn’t been practised by anyone since the destruction of the Temple in AD70. Anyone who desires to know what tithing is need look no further than the Old Testament but I’m afraid you will not find the LDS scheme anywhere within its pages. For the LDS & unfortunately certain Christian groups to claim this is Gods way is totally false & is NOT scriptural. The LDS even goes so far as to say tithing is not taught in the New Testament but nevertheless claim that God ‘restored this law,’ It’s clear from reading the information found on lds.org that they have no idea what tithing was & if any Mormon reading this tells me that they do know they will have to admit that the LDS lies to its members! If they wish to claim that tithing was restored then they why don’t they practice it? The instructions are all there in the Bible.
If people want to give ‘free will offerings’ to the Church, & by that I mean a Christian Church then by all means let them do so but don’t call it tithing. Tithing was introduced for the Hebrews from the time of Moses, it was never intended for Christians & it ended with the destruction of the Temple in AD70. If any persons could or should ‘restore’ the tithe it would be the Jews not Christians. It has never been restored by them because it cannot be restored, the records were lost with the destruction of the Temple & as no one knows who belongs to the tribe of Levi who then could receive the Tithe?
I find it sickening that the LDS & nominally Christian groups should so distort the scriptures for the sake of financial gain. Let them prove that modern tithing is scriptural before taking another penny from its members.
Kate
“that tax payers supplied these for you.”
Are you saying that a government worker, who is payed from taxes, shouldn’t need to pay tithing either? And while these things come from taxes, if I was working a job my pay would come from costumers buying the product, so it still comes from someone else.
Did you know that the government count the Pell Grant as income when calculating Food Stamps?
Brewed
I can make no comment on people you know. I do not know the detail of the situation. The details you give paint a certain picture, but I have no doubt a different picture would form if other details were had.
I can speak from my own experience, and that has been that, while I have found it difficult at times to pay tithing, I have never paid it fearfully. I enjoy paying my tithing, even at times when doing so appear to put me and my family into more difficulties. I also know that if I do I will be blessed, which I have experienced countless times. As I said, I have found it difficult to pay at times. But I have also found that when I don’t pay my life quickly becomes much more difficult.
Oh, and I like the church having a record of what I have payed in tithing. I like being able to check up with them, to make sure they got everything I gave. The real difference is that I like the order of it all.
Old Man
And it sickens me at how you constantly try to alter the English Language to fit your definitions.
Tithe (dictionary.com)
“the tenth part of agricultural produce or personal income set apart as an offering to God or for works of mercy, or the same amount regarded as an obligation or tax for the support of the church, priesthood, or the like. ”
What we have is tithing, despite your attempts to alter the meaning of word. Actually, tithe originally meant one tenth, which is why we use the term. It was originally used for any kind of concession or grant made to another it seems. What don’t have is the same system of tithes that was had among the Jews. But to say this concept is not in the Bible shows you don’t understand the Bible. The basic concept is exactly the same. The manner is which it is payed has changed, as our system of economy has changed. But that really is of little importance.
Where was the Mormon “gift of discernment” in all of this? Here is what Mormons teach (and there are literally HUNDREDS more of these):
Unfortunately NO ONE who came in contact with this person knew he was a dishonest liar. Not the fellow Temple Workers, Temple President, Bishop, or anyone else. This shows that there is really no “gift of discernment” in the Mormon church.
Shem
“And it sickens me at how you constantly try to alter the English Language to fit your definitions.”
Where have I dont that? The subject is tithing, there is only one tithe being discussed here, the tithe that the Corporation claims to have restored. So, restored from what? Obviously the Old Testament tithe & I have already explained why it could not be restored. The tithe of which we are talking was given exclusively to the Hebrews for a very specific purpose.
I’m going to give you a few facts & ask a few questions about tithing in the hope that you will give me some honest answers as you’re constantly telling me that’s what you do.
Who paid tithing? Only landowners paid tithing, are you a landowner?
What proportion of income was the tithe? It was 10% of any profit. Do you pay 10% of your savings or do you pay 10% of your total income?
How was the tithe to be paid? It had to be paid in food not money. Do you pay in food?
What was the tithe to be used for? It was to ensure that the Levites, the only tribe without land, could be sustained. It was to ensure that the poor could be fed every 3 years. Do you have a priestly class to whom you give food? Does the LDS feed the poor with tithing revenue every 3 years?
“What we have is tithing, despite your attempts to alter the meaning of word. Actually, tithe originally meant one tenth, which is why we use the term.”
Your accusations of me changing the meaning of words are a little tiresome, where have I changed the meaning of tithe? I have explained the tithe to you, what it was, why it was, how it was. The meaning of one tenth which you quote above is just one of several different meanings. There are 5 different words in scripture that translate as ‘tithe’
“What don’t have is the same system of tithes that was had among the Jews.
Spot on, your idea of tithing isn’t even remotely like the Hebrew tithe & remember this, the Hebrew tithe was ordained by God, not by men.
“But to say this concept is not in the Bible shows you don’t understand the Bible.”
Please be good enough to show me where I said, “this concept is not in the Bible”
“The basic concept is exactly the same.”
No it isn’t, the basic concept of the tithe was to provide sustenance for the Levites & food for the poor in certain years, The LDS concept of the tithe is to increase the corporations wealth.
In Mormonism, we find that members of the Church are apparently not worthy of living God’s higher law of the Spirit (according to their own “prophets”). In speaking of tithing, only one of a long list of Mormon regulations, that denies Mormons “exaltation”, Joseph F. Smith states,
This is an astounding sermon. It is astounding because it incorporates all the things that Paul warns against, in his letters to the early Church. The Apostle Paul teaches us that the Gospel of Jesus is exactly the opposite of what F. Smith teaches,
Paul says something important here. He says BEFORE “THE COMING OF THIS FAITH” we were held in custody ‘under the law’, locked up until ‘the faith that WAS TO COME WOULD BE REVEALED.” This shows that Mormon claims that there was a ‘gospel of Jesus’ in former dispensations is incorrect. Paul then says “NOW that this faith has come…WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A GUARDIAN.” Why? Because we “are all children of God through faith, for all who were baptized into Christ “have clothed yourselves with Christ.” If we “belong to Christ” then we are “Abraham’s seed,” and ‘heirs according to the promise”.
Paul then tells us:
This goes all the way back to the time of Adam, so the incorrect Mormon doctrine that tithing pre-dated the Law of Moses does not apply. (Nor did it ever anyway because Mormons don’t understand what Tithing really is). When we were under the law, we were slaves, subject to ‘guardians and trustees’ for a certain time. This was ‘until the time’ set by the ‘father’. And when the time fully came, He sent his Son, Jesus ‘to redeem those under the law’, ‘that we might receive adoption to sonship’. If we were already sons, (spirit children) we would not need to be adopted, for we would already BE Heirs. But God sends ‘the Spirit of his Son into our hearts’ the Spirit that calls out ‘father’, so we are no longer slaves to any law, sets of rules or regulations, or ‘guardians’, that might enact such regulations. We have direct access to Jesus, because NOW we are his children and heirs. This is incomprehensible to Mormons who CHOOSE to ignore the Bible and follow self appointed “guardians” who deny them the Spirit of God by enacting regulations that chain them to petty laws.
But F. Smith teaches the opposite, because these Mormon regulations are given because they were ‘not ready’ (too weak) to live by the Spirit:
So according to this, God gives us ‘inferior laws’ because we are not ‘prepared to receive and act upon’ higher ones. Were all of the Jews ready to ‘receive and act upon’ the atonement of Jesus Christ? Would God then, after Jesus died for us, say that because many were not ready to embrace Jesus, that we should then return to the law of Moses? This is ridiculous, and this is the problem with ‘guardians’ who make regulations that are out of harmony with the Spirit. They enact these laws, (like the law of consecration) and then when they fail, have God changing his mind. In the same sermon F. Smith declares,
So all those who don’t do as Smith said, won’t inherit “exaltation”, because they CHOOSE not to live the law of consecration. THEY HAVE NO FAITH. That is directly out of the mouth of a Mormon “prophet”. Those who live by the law, as Paul states, DIE by the law. The Mormon “prophets”, by erroneously enacting the LAW of Tithing, have doomed every Mormon to Eternal damnation. Here is another example of how Mormon “prophets” try and get around not obeying DIRECT COMMANDMENTS because they did not want to give up their wealth:
F. Smith was ordered by the courts of the land to give up polygamy, and stop living with his wives. They stopped marriages, (after a second Manifesto, because F. Smith himself violated the first one repeatedly) but F. Smith did not stop living with his wives, nor having children by them, which was against the laws of the land. Smith also supported his wives and children by living off the Church. Brigham Young received a $10,000 a year salary from the Church. (“For Services Rendered the Church for 30 years $10,000 = 300.000”, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 7, p.409) It brings to mind that yes, tithing did “fatten the leaders”. (And this man wanted the poor to pay 10% of what they received on Church Welfare? So they could record their names in a Book? Show off that they paid tithing? For who? Doesn’t God already know? How greedy and petty can you be?) Anyway,
During the Reed Smoot Hearings, and “under oath before the Senate, Joseph F. Smith led future witnesses by example. He volunteered that he had cohabited with his wives and that they had borne him eleven children since the Manifesto, even though he said that the Manifesto “was a revelation to me.” Upon this point the following exchange then occurred:
When it came down to it, F. Smith was in violation of his own laws, and by his own words,
And this LIAR and HYPOCRITE has the gall to tell poor people they are unworthy if they don’t give back 10% of the pittance they get on Church Welfare? Is it right that Mormon ‘prophets’ can pick and choose which laws to violate, while holding back blessings from others who in good conscience do not keep their unjust laws of tithing and the Word of Wisdom?
We live by FAITH in Jesus who has spoken to us in these last days, the one ‘hung on a pole’, so we might “receive the promise of the Spirit,” and our ‘works’ flow our of our faith and love in Jesus. NOTHING MORE IS REQUIRED. NOTHING. This is true deification, as taught in the Bible and by the early Church fathers.
Shem,
“Are you saying that a government worker, who is payed from taxes, shouldn’t need to pay tithing either?”
This is the most inane thing I have ever heard. That government worker is earning his/her living, not taking a hand out from the government. Does the LDS church earn everyone’s tithing? That government worker is also paying taxes out of their wages. Does the LDS church pay taxes out of the tithing it receives? What part of government assistance is the LDS church entitled to?
” if I was working a job my pay would come from costumers buying the product, so it still comes from someone else.”
This isn’t even remotely the same thing. The government/tax payers were giving you the help you needed to get through school and feed your family, that money was for you not your multi billion dollar religious institution. How is it right that non LDS people pay into the tax system and you turn around and give their hard earned dollars to your church instead of using it the way you are supposed to? You did apply for that aid right? Did you disclose that you planned on giving 10% of it right off the bat to the LDS church? Is using that government assistance in any other way than what it was intended for being honest with your fellow man?
“Did you know that the government count the Pell Grant as income when calculating Food Stamps?”
Absolutely I know this. They have every right to. Everyone applying for government aid has to qualify. This isn’t the same thing either because it’s the taxpayers money that gets distributed to those in need of it. If you are well enough off that you can give 10% of it freely to a multi billion dollar corporation that doesn’t need it, I would say that you didn’t really need that much to begin with either.
Kate,
Maybe you should take another tack with those who pay 10% even though they get it from Gov. assistance. You see, it’s been drilled into the heads of every Mormon that paying tithing is first, fire insurance and second, something that will get you a “blessing”. But many that were getting by ok and paid their tithing are those who are now getting Gov. assistance. They got no “blessing”. And if you don’t think they are talking about material blessings, read through the many Mormon “prophet” statements that say this explicitly. I would venture to guess that if you did a survey of those paying tithing and those who did not, those paying the tithing on average would not be any better off than those who did not. And now my point, it has been so drilled into the heads of Mormons for years that people must pay, even if they can’t meet their financial obligations that they will do so (if they are of that mindset) even if they can’t provide food for their families, or any other necessities. But the State of Utah has one of the highest ratios of people on welfare out of all the states in the Union. That is because they’ll pay their tithing to a wealthy corporation, then go to the Government and take the Taxpayers money to help them pay the bills and feed their families. I guess that is one of the “blessings” one has an option to get if you pay tithing. Just be sure to fill out all the proper paperwork.
I saw a report this morning on a scandal brewing in the welfare world. It seems there are recipients that are taking the gov. debit cards and spending the money at strip clubs. They are asking for cash back on there purchases. Believe it or not, there is no law against this.
It kind of ticks me off that we have a system where by we are trying to help people and they are abusing that help.
So are Mormons taking their welfare checks and giving 10% of it to their church just like these other folks are forking it over at strip clubs?
I suppose since there’s no law against it, Mormons can do it.
So that should make Mormons who do such a thing feel justified and blessed, right?
I’d say it’s the strip club mentality!
There are all sorts of religious extortion rackets out there and Mormonism is but one of them. In Mormonism the believer buys a temple recommend that is based on 10% of their earnings. Without having access to the Mormon temple, the faithful member can’t become a god. So there is an annual entrance fee that this god club extracts.
There are other religions groups that teach “increase” if you “sow” into there ministry. Here’s an excerpt:
“You as the reader respond to what you hear by giving and sowing into a good-ground ministry such as this one in order for it to take root. If you need finances, call your offering-seed ‘finances’, if you need healing, call your offering-seed ‘healing’ etc. and watch God bring what you named back to you in a supernatural way!”
“If you are in need of supernatural debt cancellation according to God’s Word, Brother ________ teaches us to give our financial seed a specific purpose by naming it “Supernatural Debt Cancellation” and speak Luke 4:19 over it as so: “The Spirit of the Lord was on Jesus and He was anointed to preach the acceptable year of the Lord, and the Spirit of the Lord is on me and I’m anointed to receive it. Amen!” Then plant that seed into God’s kingdom – Amen!”
“The idea here is to “sow” the money and “claim” a Biblical verse over it. That’s the process by which the person can obtain the blessing they seek. It’s the “speaking” out the Word that is part of the technique. This is how it is explained:
“Again, here’s how it works: if you assign a specific name to that financial seed and speak the Word of life into it with a corresponding scripture in the same faith-filled manner that God spoke Words to make things come to pass, then because you were created in God’s image and likeness – the scriptures that you speak over that financial gift bring life to that seed and you as the sower will reap a supernatural harvest of whatever you named that seed to be!”
“Man became a living speaking spirit in God’s image, but the power to create is not in Man in and of himself the way the Devil wants us to believe. God blessed mankind by giving us the exact same power to create things supernaturally by speaking the same words that God speaks.”
“This unique ability is a result of the Eden blessing; the Eden covenant of God between heaven and mankind. The very same power with which God created man, the universe, all the animals and every plant in this earth, He put that same power on Man, and God intended for mankind to continue expanding the Garden of Eden outward to replenish the entire earth by speaking the same Word of God!”
So this is all plainly taught in the Bible, right? This technique of sowing, reaping, speaking God’s Word out loud to cause things to come to pass, this ability is all through the NT, right?
Finally,
“By God creating us in His image and likeness (Gen. 1:26-27), God spoke words of life and dominion into mankind, and God created Man with this same glory – that same light energy. This refers to the spirit of man, not just his flesh which was created from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7). Man’s spirit came directly from the inside of God who “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.” ”
I’d think Mormons would rather like this. I know Joseph Smith would have grooved on it had it occurred to him at the time.
Falcon
We have a system in place over here that actually encourages people not to work, the average unskilled or semi skilled workers with more than 2 children are far wealthier, courtesy of the taxpayer, than they would be if they worked for a living That applies only to people of working age of course, pensioners like my ex wife & myself, having paid into the system all our working lives are given the bare minimum to live on & I really do mean ‘minimum’ There is nothing left after paying household bills like food, heating, lighting etc to pay for ‘expensive luxuries’ such as a holiday or new clothes.
What’s my point you may ask, well, the LDS is quite content to take 10% of my ex wife’s pension & she is constantly in debt, I have come to her rescue in the past with items such as shoes & small things in general but as my means are also very limited I can’t help a lot.
Anyway, the corporation have now told her that they will help with some of her debts & that is seen by her as some kind of blessing. When I tell her that if she hadn’t given thousands of pounds to that obscenely wealthy ‘church’ she refuses to talk about it. How do you deal with that kind of mindset? How can you make someone see that the LDS are like leeches, sucking money from people who can ill afford to pay for their ‘Temple recommends’ & hence their salvation? My Ex has been blackmailed, & I mean that quite literally, into poverty by a multi billion dollar business entity claiming to be a church in order to avoid tax.
grindael,
Sorry. I am floored, just floored. I can’t seem to wrap my mind around people applying for government aid because they can’t feed their children and then turning around and giving 10% of it to an oober rich corporation. I was telling my husband about Sharon’s post and the conversation that followed and he said that if people can do without that 10%, they need to give it back to the system so it can be redistributed to others who need it. IMO this should be illegal and at the very least it’s dishonest.
“And now my point, it has been so drilled into the heads of Mormons for years that people must pay, even if they can’t meet their financial obligations that they will do so (if they are of that mindset) even if they can’t provide food for their families, or any other necessities.”
I do know this. I even had a bishop tell us that potatoes are cheap when we told him we couldn’t afford to feed our kids and pay tithing. He also told us that we couldn’t afford NOT to pay tithing. I’ve heard that all of my life too. I’ve just never bought into it. You see, at our house, our kids come first. Our family truly does come first.
The Lord tells us to be cheerful givers and I believe that giving doesn’t always mean $$$. If I am having financial difficulties, I can give in other ways such as volunteering at school to help kids with reading or writing, visiting the elderly in the care center giving them a fresh face to look at, or driving a Cancer sufferer 2 hours for Chemo treatments to give their main caregiver a much needed break, etc. Does God not consider these things as giving?
The LDS leaders telling members to give 10% of their government assistance shows just how far they will go to keep that cash flow coming in.
falcon,
Strip clubs? Seriously? I have a friend who works for a major grocery store chain and she said that pretty much every day she gets yelled at because people with food stamps try to buy energy drinks and that isn’t allowed. They don’t want to pay cash for those. So it’s funny to me that an energy drink cannot be purchased with a Horizen card but hey, you can use it at the strip club! LOL! Our system is so messed up!
So Mormons are asked to pay 10 percent of any financial aid they receive? Are they supposed to pay 10 percent of the money and food they receive from the LDS Church when they are on Church welfare?
OM,
That is the mentality of the carrot and the stick. At first, you are told if you don’t pay your “tithing” there is no guarantee anyone can save you from “burning”. Then you are told it is about “loyalty”, keeping the commandments of the “prophet” etc. You must pay at all costs whatever your income is. Then the carrot is that they tell you if you do, you will be “blessed” with financial stability, etc. in this life, and “Exaltation” in the next. As Falcon so aptly pointed out, there are such schemes in the Christian world as well. The Christian con is just as heinous, because they prey on people that don’t really know much about the Bible and God’s promises to those that believe. Like when they run “commercials” claiming that if you sow a financial “gift” God will “miraculously” send you money and they have “testimonials” of lots and lots of people to claim that this is exactly what happens. Instead of putting their faith in Jesus, they put it in the system, in the Tele-Evangelists, the “prophets”, in everyone and everything except what matters: God. Once a person is brainwashed with the kinds of scams that they fixate on, it is very hard to counteract the effects of their own expectations, and like the failed prophets who claim Jesus will come THIS YEAR, or THAT YEAR, if nothing happens, they just recalculate and give some kind of lame excuse as to why they were wrong in the first place. Instead of blaming themselves for having been “taken”, they blame themselves for somehow offending God and not having done enough in some way, to reap the promised “blessing”. This kind of con has been around since the beginning of civilization, and there have always been those who prey on the weak minded, or the fanatics, or the downtrodden, or those longing for answers that they feel someone who is much more “spiritual” than they are can give. No one could believe that a man like Jerry Sandusky could be molesting all those boys, why, look at how he took them in, showered them with gifts, set up a foundation to help children, etc. People believe what they WANT to believe, and if they are comfortable in their circumstances, or are taught that this is just the way God operates, they buy it hook, line and sinker, and it is hard for anyone to get them to remove the hook from their own mouths, even the Holy Spirit, because they have ears, but they won’t hear, they have minds but they won’t think, and they see the truth but they won’t believe. Warren Jeffs STILL has a core of followers that refuse to believe that he did anything wrong, and is simply a martyr for the “truth”, a prophet of God, and that he was “set up” and that everyone is lying about him. Like with Joseph, they justify his behavior as being a little out of the norm, but who are they to criticize what a “prophet” says is a commandment from God? If your ex-wife had simply invested the money in a stable investment, she would have reaped a reward for it. Instead, she has to now depend upon the charity of an organization that grudgingly gives back very little of what they get, and make people feel bad because they are not working, or aren’t paying an additional 10% of what they get in charity. Paul himself talks about tithing, and how it is no longer necessary, and how useless it is to SAVE US:
Abraham tithed a tenth of his PLUNDER. He never tithed before this time, and he gave back all that he took. He made no profit at all from this. The LAW established the Levitical Tithe and Priesthood. Melchizedek was a type model for Christ, and that is why Abraham gave homage to him. Once Christ came, all forced regulations including tithing were done away with, because we now live under GRACE and give as the Holy Spirit and circumstances prompt us to give. (Out of LOVE not out of FORCED OBLIGATION). For a good explanation about Abraham and tithing, and why it is no longer necessary, please go to this link.
Old Man,
I just want to know one thing from you. Did you ever visit the Cavern in Liverpool and hear the Beatles circa 1962?
After Christian apologetics, my passion is the early history and development of the Beatles. Do you speak Liverpoolian?
I suppose someone will tell us that the Mormons have baptized and done the “work” for John Lennon, George Harrison and Stu Sutcliff.
jaxi said:
The above is a FALSE Statement, and I couldn’t continue reading the rest of what she said do to the fact it starts out on such a false premise.
The Church does not demand 10% of “Gross”.. You are simply asked if you are “Full” tithe payer. What being that means is different to different people.. The simple definition is a tithe is 10% of one’s increase, but what one considers ‘increase’.. whether that be “Gross”, “Net” or something all together different is up to the individual. I recall just recently the Stake Presidency came out and give a special Sunday School meeting expressing this very rule..Just as the Church stays “Out of the Bedroom”, they also don’t “Audit” your books and it’s up to the individual to decide for himself if he feels he’s honest with the Lord.
OC,
<"The above is a FALSE Statement"
I know people that have been threatened by Church officials that they would lose their church job if they didn't pay on gross and had to show proof of income. If you had continued to read, it was my personal experience on why I know what the churches policy is, because I experienced it. So maybe my bishop was a little more letter of the law, but he was obeying what the LDS Church said and if I didn't pay what the church expected me to, I had to turn over my recommend, which I was forced to do.
Shem,
Excellent comment..
I agree, but we shouldn’t judge lest we know ALL the facts, which I don’t see that we do.
Paying tithing is an act of faith, our critics here simply try to smear this divine law to make it seem like the church is evil corporation when as you point it’s quite the opposite. Yes, it might seem hard to pay tithing at times, but that’s the test of faith between you and God.. Any TRUE Christian would know this and see the example set forth in ACTS..
EXACTLY..
Personally, I find that Tithing is a major stumbling block for our critics, mainly because they have lost the Spirit of the Lord. Yet they claim to believe in Jesus and follow him, and he asked his disciples to give it all up and follow him and yet they have a hang up with 10% honor system.
Jaxi said.
So we hear you say.. but in all the years I have been in the Church and my family NEVER has any such thing happened… So if you “Truly” know of such then it’s quite the isolated incident and is not a characteristic of the Church in general , but the actions of specific individuals in the Church.. The church is full of imperfect humans didn’t you know.. I have had my own issues at times with certain leadership in the church, but I guess God gave me the good sense to recognize that it wasn’t the Church, it was the individuals.
OC, Explain to me how it is ok to tithe off of Government aid?
Ah yes, right on time.
The Church is perfect but the people aren’t.
What a sad commentary. It should read, “The Church isn’t perfect and neither are the people.”
The whole program is a mess from start to finish.
OC,
<" I have had my own issues at times with certain leadership in the church, but I guess God gave me the good sense to recognize that it wasn’t the Church, it was the individuals."
If you read my statement I didn't blame the Church, I moved on and was an active LDS person without any resentment for years after this happened. The point is that your tithing is used to determine if you are worthy to enter the temple or not. Someone has authority to determine if you are worthy to enter the temple, which to many members is a big deal. It's not just," oh well, he made a mistake I can't enter the temple anymore." The system for determining "worthiness" is flawed. As Kate described, the only thing that was keeping her from making covenants with God was how much money she was giving to the LDS Church. Now what if I had been invited to a family members (or one of my own children's) weddings at the time that this specific individual made his decision. I would not have been "worthy" to go. I would have had to stay outside because someone else had made a judgement about me and my worthiness to enter what LDS claim to be God's house. The point is, the system is flawed. It's about control and money.
@ oceancoast
“Personally, I find that Tithing is a major stumbling block for our critics, mainly because they have lost the Spirit of the Lord.”
Wow, what arrogance. I am a former active Mormon. I have served as a first counselor in a bishopric, first counselor in a branch presidency, Seventy’s president, ward mission leader, early morning seminary teacher, Elder’s quorum president, a full-time mission, and various other callings. I was also raised in an LDS ‘high leadership’ household until I left home. Hence, I know quite a bit about the ways and means, history, and eschatology of Mormonism, all of which has a great bearing with regard to LDS tithing practices. Am I making an arrogant statement? Well, to be sure, not in the sense to think I have the ‘Spirit of the Lord’ while some others may not. But what I do have is a lot of experience and knowledge about a lot of things ‘Mormon’.
You are entitled to your opinion, although, like I said, it comes across as an arrogant, judgemental, self-righteous one. Still, where there is life there is always hope. I hope one day you will come to a different understanding and opinion about your your LDS belief system, and the differing belief systems of others who profess to be followers of Christ.
If you want to learn a little more about LDS tithing, I would recommend a very well thought-out treatise by a professing Mormon. You can read it here:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html
In essence, a lot of non-LDS people give far more than 10% of there money to ‘Christ’. I know a few, and have read numerous accounts of those whom I don’t know. In any event, giving money to a church has nothing to do with gaining salvation in Our Father’s House. And I will tell you most emphatically that when any church promulgates this notion, you can know of a surety that it is not the doctrine of Christ. From that true point of reference you can come to your own conclusions and decisions to map out your own spiritual journey through life. I emphasize “your own”.
Mmm. that’s should be ‘their moeny’. There may be other text errors.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. In November of 1832 Jo Smith wrote down this strange “revelation” that said, in part,
In a General Conference in April, 1900 Joseph F. Smith, “prophet”, mouthpiece and oracle of God, applied verses 3-5 directly to MEMBERS PAYING TITHING, not “apostates” who broke the law of consecration. That is why there are records kept. But of course, those living in the modern Mormon Bubble no longer pay attention to “prophets” of former days, what they say, or how it applies to the church. They obviously don’t pay attention to their own scriptures either, which show that OC doesn’t know what he is talking about. For the complete context of F. Smith’s statement, read my comment above where I quote from it at length.
The Apostle Peter wrote:
Did he perhaps, foresee the time when men would make statements like this,
F. Smith makes tithing as important as faith in God, repentence, baptism and the gift of the ‘holy ghost’. He says, if one offends in one point of the Mormon Law of Moses, “he is not entitled to the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel”. F. Smith elaborates,
F. Smith then states,
What was that more ‘perfect’ law? The ‘law of consecration’, or the United Order, which failed in Kirtland due to Joseph Smith’s greed and his ‘anti’ bank, the Kirtland Safety Society. F. Smith, then relates how the Saints were blessed by the failure of the law of consecration:
But were the members of the Church ‘unprepared’, or was there another reason for the law of tithing? In the History of the Church, under the date of April 7, 1834 we read:
What ‘Firm’ was that? What was in debt? That would be the United Firm. The United Firm (1832–1834) was a private partnership of church leaders established to generate income for them as well as benefit of the church. The United Firm had its roots in the appointment of certain church leaders as stewards of “the revelations, and commandments” on November 12, 1831. During its lifetime included the Gilbert, Whitney & Company in Zion, and Newel K. Whitney & Company in Kirtland, W. W. Phelps & Co., and F. G. Williams & Co. In 1834 the United Firm was divided into the United Firms of Kirtland and Zion, and most Kirtland members were given title to land and homes in Kirtland.
In 1831 Joseph Smith had a ‘revelation’ (Section 70) which was directed at the original members of this ‘Firm’, who were Joseph Smith, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, John Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, and W. W. Phelps. Take particular notice of verse 6:
This was the beginning of what was to be called the ‘United Firm’. These ‘revelations’ were not directed to the Church (they were to be kept secret), and it gave all the proceeds to the members, specifically all their needs and wants. On April 26, 1832 at the conference of high priests and elders in Independence, Jackson County, Smith is acknowledged as President of the High Priesthood, and gives another ‘revelation’ establishing a “firm” among Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, A. Sidney Gilbert, Edward Partridge, N. K. Whitney, John Whitmer, W. W. Phelps, and Martin Harris. Partners are to be
But the “saints” were destroyed in Missouri, because Jo had a “revelation” that all of the “gentiles” land really belonged to the “saints”, (which he changed in later printings) and in a stunningly bad move, Smith ignored his own “revelation” and published them. When the Missourians read them, they were incensed. (Again, no discernment on the part of any Mormon “prophets”)
Then… two years later, we have Smith, Bishop Newel K. Whitney, and Frederick G. Williams, meeting in a council room, where they “bowed down before the Lord, and prayed that He would furnish the means to deliver the Firm from debt, (because no one wanted to live the “law of consecration”) that they might be set at liberty…” (Smith diary, April 7, 1834)
What happened? How were they going to get out of their debt? Smith had a bright idea to start his own bank. On April 6, 1837 he addressed a group of Priesthood holders in the Kirtland Temple and,
Jo’s “bank” failed. His prophecy failed. No one got rich. The United Order was another dismal failure. In order to get money out of the “saints” Smith THEN instituted “tithing”. He only did so after asking the “saints” for a $1100 a year salary, which THEY WOULD NOT APPROVE. It was then, and only then that Smith had his tithing “revelation” on the 8th of July 1838. Coincidence? Hardly. Smith wound up fleeing Kirtland on horseback in the middle of the night in January of 1838 to avoid being hauled into court. The place that HAD TO BE BUILT UP by commandment of the Lord was abandoned. He then went to Missouri and destroyed the Church there, after having the successful Whitmers, Cowderys and others they called “dissidents” threatened and then excommunicated. I could go on and on… but I’ll stop here for now.
I knew a man who paid tithe to whatever church he felt like going to. He felt strongly about the law of tithing. It makes me wonder how other churches are support? Do some Christians say wow I get 10% extra if I go to this church because they don’t believe in tithing.
One more thing. Some people tithe their entire pay check so they can be tithe free when they retire.
Does that really work?
If they are like Mitt Romney it does. He pays it and then writes it off. (Except for that last year when he was running for President when he changed his modus operandi so his return would look like he paid a higher tax rate). But since you can go back and amend your tax returns, Mitt can change that now and get the tithing write off back, which I’m sure he did as soon as the inevitable loss happened.
That is rather silly and I’m not surprised that you would think along those lines Clyde.
Not when you understand the devious reason tithing was instituted by Jo Smith. (see above) But that is something those who live in the Mormon Bubble can never comprehend.
grindael,
Tithing wasn’t instituted by Jo Smith, it has existed since Biblical Times.
It was instituted in the Mormon Church by Jo Smith beginning July 8, 1838 because Jo could not get the High Council to approve his salary. And Biblical tithing is nothing like Mormon tithing. http://mit.irr.org/tithing-fire-insurance-mormonism-and-tithe
Released yesterday, Mormon Church Membership at the end of 2012….
Total membership………………………………………………………………………………… 14,782,473
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/2012-statistical-report-2013-april-general-conference
I guess all those new missionaries aren’t doing very well now, are they?
Tithing is a common way for churches to fund the church as far as I know. I believe it is practiced among all Christian churches which is why I admired the guy who tithed no matter what church he went to.
Gee grindael you think it is a devious because JS implemented it? Wow grindael you need to calm down. You seem to be getting very upset about something that most churches practice.
Please cite me the statistics where a %10 tithing is REQUIRED of ALL Christians Churches.
It’s not. “Offerings” are. And they are up to the individual, and some pay more (This IS what the NT teaches) – but they do not have a FORCED 10% MINIMUM PUNISHED by loss of your salvation for not paying it. (This is NOT what the New Testament teaches) That is why I want you to show me how you come up with your notion that ALL Christian Churches pay TITHING.
Actually, those were the sentiments of some Mormons at the time Jo did it:
I’m not upset at all. I’m relaying the History of Mormonism that was experienced by those who were there and wrote about it. This concept may be foreign to you so I’ve included a long quote instead of a link because it is doubtful that Mormons who live inside the Bubble will follow through and read the material. (Since I already provided a link to the material and you are still making ridiculous assertions) And again, please show us your evidence that “most churches” practice the Mosaic LAW OF TITHING.
Clyde said
“I knew a man who paid tithe to whatever church he felt like going to. He felt strongly about the law of tithing.”
The Law of Tithing was given to & was exclusively for, the Hebrews it has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians.
“It makes me wonder how other churches are support? Do some Christians say wow I get 10% extra if I go to this church because they don’t believe in tithing.”
Other Christian churches are supported by free will offerings & money raising ventures that have nothing to do with tithing.
“Tithing is a common way for churches to fund the church as far as I know. I believe it is practiced among all Christian churches…….”
I said two or three days ago
“The Corporation money extraction scheme is NOT TITHING, they use the word to disguise the fact that they extract money from people under false pretences. Biblical tithing hasn’t been practised by anyone since the destruction of the Temple in AD70. Anyone who desires to know what tithing is need look no further than the Old Testament but I’m afraid you will not find the LDS scheme anywhere within its pages. For the LDS & unfortunately certain Christian groups to claim this is Gods way is totally false & is NOT scriptural.”
Perhaps I should have said ‘so-called Christian groups’ because Christians do NOT tithe.
“Gee grindael you think it is a devious because JS implemented it? Wow grindael you need to calm down. You seem to be getting very upset about something that most churches practice.”
‘Most churches’ do not practise tithing, no genuine Christian Church would & Grindael has made it abundantly clear from Scripture why that is so. As I said above, the LDS so-called tithe is nothing of the kind, tithing as a scriptural obligation ended in AD70 with the destruction of the Temple & even if this were not so Christians are not called upon to tithe, in fact it can be argued that Christian tithing is offensive to God.
Oceancoast said
“Tithing wasn’t instituted by Jo Smith, it has existed since Biblical Times.”
Putting it as simply as I can, it has not existed since Biblical times. ‘Tithing’ which is understood by the LDS to mean a way of raising money was introduced into the Catholic Church sometime in the 6th century but it is NOT the Biblical tithe. So it would appear that Mormons & non-Christian groups follow the teachings of 6th Century Catholicism rather than Scripture.