Don’t patronize us, please

In a 2007 General Conference talk, Seventy Gary J. Coleman referred to a story of fourteen-year-old Cortnee, the daughter of an LDS mission president, who was confused when her high school classmates questioned her Christianity. She went home and asked her mother, “Mom, are we Christians?” Coleman answered,

“As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are a Christian, and I am too. I am a devout Christian who is exceedingly fortunate to have greater knowledge of the true ‘doctrine of Christ’ since my conversion to the restored Church. These truths define this Church as having the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I now understand the true nature of the Godhead, I have access to additional scripture and revelation, and I can partake of the blessings of priesthood authority. Yes, Cortnee, we are Christians.”

The very foundation of Mormonism is based on the effects of the “Great Apostasy” and the belief for a need in a “restoration” of Christianity. In an April 2013 General Conference address, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk titled “Followers of Christ.” He explained,

Like all other Christians, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints study the life of our Savior as reported in the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I will review examples and teachings contained in these four books of the Holy Bible and invite each of us and all other Christians to consider how this restored Church and each of us qualify as followers of Christ” (Ensign, May 2013, p. 96).

He says that “like other followers of Christ, we sometimes find it difficult to separate ourselves from the world and its traditions.” On the next page, he writes, “Like other Christians, we pray in all our worship services.”

warning-mass-confusion-aheadPerhaps he didn’t mean it, but I believe his blurring the lines patronize “other Christians.” After all, he makes it appear that the Mormons and other Christians are somehow similar in their claims to truth.  Yet the context of the article shows what it means to be a true “follower of Christ.” Consider several of the traits that he provides:

  • “Jesus taught that baptism was necessary to enter the kingdom of God”—However, the idea of baptismal regeneration (water baptism necessary for salvation) is rejected by Evangelical Christians. In addition, Oaks makes no mention how Mormonism teaches that this rite must be performed with the proper authority (via the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods); any baptisms performed by “other Christians” are not efficacious in the eyes of Latter-day Saints.
  •  “Jesus gave commandments”—Obeying these commandments are necessary for eternal life (exaltation). Oaks explains, “They range all the way from worldly practices like political correctness and extremes in dress and grooming to deviations from basic values like the eternal nature and function of the family.” Regarding that last point, those outside the church do not have access to everything a Mormon has, including the 1995 talk given by then-President Gordon B. Hinckley called “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” In addition, “other Christians” also do not have the Word of Wisdom or have an understanding of or access to the temple and the ordinances performed there. In other words, only those inside the church can truly know what must be done to be fully obedient.
  • “Jesus taught that ‘men ought always to pray.’” If prayer is to “our Father in Heaven”—different in image than the God worshipped by other Christians—then how can the prayers of these “other Christians” be given with authority?
  • “The Savior called Twelve Apostles to assist in His Church and gave them the keys and authority to carry on after His death.” Oaks explains how the Mormon Church “follows this example in its organization and in its conferral of keys and authority on Apostles.” In other words, every “other Christian” organization does not have this structure, which means they do not have the “keys and authority to carry on after His death.”
  • “Jesus taught, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’” Oaks explains, “From modern revelation, unique to the restored gospel, we know that the commandment to seek perfection is part of God the Father’s plan for the salvation of His children.” Yet while good works are crucial in the sanctification process, Evangelical Christians do not interpret this verse as Latter-day Saints do. After all, justification comes by God’s grace through faith. Period.

Here is my request to Mr. Oaks and other Latter-day Saints. If you insist on clinging to the name “Christian,” then please quit referring to those outside your church as “Christians.” It must be understood that the average layperson is unable to grasp the implications of this speech because it is difficult to read between the lines. Since Mormonism teaches that a person must be baptized with apostolic authority, must follow the commandments given by God, and must belong to a church with proper organization, it is clear that “other Christians” are not “just like” you. If nothing else, differentiate yourselves by using “Restored” or “Authoritative” in front of “Christian” to describe yourselves. Or, even better, why not just claim to be “Latter-day Saints” or “Mormons”? But please, quit patronizing Christians. Just call a spade a spade. Confusing the issue is just not fair. Or honest.

This entry was posted in Baptism, Christianity, Priesthood, Truth, Honesty, Prayer, and Inquiry, Worthiness and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

110 Responses to Don’t patronize us, please

  1. faithoffathers says:

    This commentary really seems to strain at man-made criteria and boundaries between groups. The super-charged focus on separating and labelling people reminds me of the pharisees who sought to lift themselves above other people.

    Elder Oaks is seeking the basic definition of a follower of Christ and demonstrating how Latter-day Saints meet that definition. The relevance of this talk should not be underestimated as so many critics, like those of you here, constantly insist that members of the church are not Christian. In making your arguments, the critics almost always attempt to manipulate the discussion by demanding their own criteria that are quite arbitrary and not based on the words or teachings of Christ. And those arguments do not apply the standard defintions of what a Christian is as accepted by society at large.

    Elder Oaks’ talk is a refreshing perspective based on the accounts of Christ’s life found in the gospels. It is a basic analysis of the life and teachings of Christ and what He said about what it means to be a follower of Him. I think it is very significant and interesting that so many critics reject such an obvious analysis and favor instead the extrapolations from man-made- creeds established by councils having no more authority than an earthly government.

    I think it is obvious that Elder Oaks’ motivation is entirely different than the critics. While the critics seek to divide people and lift themselves up in relation to other groups, Oaks is applying basic logic to the question of who are the followers of Christ. His lack of specificity by not insisting that other groups don’t maintain the exact same beliefs or liturgy as us is simply an objective acceptence that Christ is the Savior of the whole world and not some possession over which we bicker and claw to keep to ourselves. And that is completely appropriate given Christ’s approach in His ministry and acceptance of all people and inviting them all to learn of Him and follow Him. He was so much more inviting than He was exclusive and rejecting.

    I think the difference in the way LDS see people of other faiths compared to how evangelicals see others is influence by our different beliefs about mankind. We see the mechanism and plan by which all people will have a chance to understand and accept Christ at some point in eternity. The evangelicals seem a little more anxious to dismiss the salvation of others, and I think it is partly a result of not having this perspective. Instead, you often see others as headed to an eternity in hell- I have been told this countless times by evangelicals. These differences certainly stem from doctrinal differences about the nature and love of Christ and His ability to extend Himself to all mankind vs. just a small subgroup.

    Elder Oaks’ approach and talk does not result in “mass confusion.” Rather, it is a level-headed and sensible approach to a question to which some people insist only they have the right to answer.

  2. Alex says:

    I appreciate your well written and well reasoned response to the silly drivel that emanates from this blog site.

  3. SR says:

    FOF, a question for you.

    I am a Christian. I was baptized as a baby in a Lutheran church. My faith has grown from the time of me participating in Sunday School and Vacation Bible School. I had my first communion at age 11. I was confirmed as a member in my Lutheran church at 14, when I had to give a Statement of Faith. From there, my faith has grown through college and as a youth director at a local church and to a point where, now, I attend a nondenominational church in NYC. I give money to that church when I am able. I also donate money as I am able to various Christian charities and other charities that are very important to me. I doubt it equals 10% of my income for the sole reason that I live in NYC and it is really, really not easy to manage money here. I give when I can. I drink tea. I enjoy the occasional glass of wine or bottle of beer. Sometimes I have a cocktail. I read my Bible daily (I’m currently moving through reading all of it in a year). I pray often. When I get married (which I hope I will one day do), it will be in a Christian ceremony, but probably outdoors. I will more than likely have my own children baptized as infants, or perhaps dedicated (depending on the church that I end up attending). I believe I’m a good person. I have good morals. I try not to curse. I do my best not to lie. I don’t steal, cheat, and I’ve never killed someone. I wear modest clothes. I have no tattoos. I hope and pray that my actions speak louder than my words and that both show God’s love in me to others.

    Having said all that, my question is this: am I, by your definition, a Christian? If so, what does that mean to me? Will I have eternal life? Do I have salvation? Where will I spend eternity? What will happen to me after I die? What am I missing in my life?

    Please, answer honestly. I can take it.

  4. faithoffathers says:


    Thanks for the post.

    In response to your question- are you a Christian- I would say, absolutely. I have no desire or ability to tell you that you are not a Christian. It sounds like you base your life on Christ and His teachings and try to follow Him as your Savior. In my book, that is a Christian.

    Every person on this planet, including past, present, and future persons are in the same boat. All of us are estranged from God. According to my belief (and the church), to return to God and live in His presence, there are things every person must experience, learn, accept, and live. Christ is the gateway and only way of returning to the Father. A person must accept Him and follow Him. Part of following Him and accepting Him is having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized as He instructs, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure in faith to the end of our lives. You may ask whether a person baptized by somebody who is not a member of the restored church will be saved. The bottom line is that every soul will have a real, legitimate opportunity to learn Christ’s one truth and accept it. We do believe that a person must be baptized by somebody holding Christ’s Priesthood with the authority to represent Him. But there is a way for this to happen for every single person.

    You could say that we believe every person who receives salvation and lives with God has to receive these ordinances through the Priesthood. But whether it is in this life or in the Spirit World, every person will have that chance. The most that can be expected of any person is that they live according to their conscience- the light and knowledge they have received from God. It would not be fair of me to tell you or believe that since you have not been baptized into my church, you will not be saved. I have no basis on which to judge whether you are living according to what your conscience tells you and whether you have had a real opportunity to receive all the truth that God has revealed to mankind through prophets.

    Bottom line- I believe that in order to be saved, every soul, including you and including me, must accept Christ and receive His ordinances through His servants. But we live in an imperfect world where we all have different experiences and influences that affect us. Billions of people have passed through this life without the opportunity to accept Christ and receive these ordinances. Some people have a great deal of truth and live faithful lives, but have not yet learned for themselves where those ordinances and authority is to be found. God knows all that and has a system and plan in place to put those opportunities in front of every person, whether they are non-LDS Christians, LDS, or non-Christian. The difference between our church and others is that, through prophets, we have been given a bigger perspective on that plan and system that gives every soul the chance to learn “the truth” and accept it.

    So all I can truly say is that you will certainly have the opportunity to understand “the truth,” either in this life or in the Spirit World. In saying that, you need to understand that I fully recognize and believe that there are truths that you know that I do not know yet. And there are probably some things I might know that you don’t yet. It is my opinion that one of those things I know is where Christ’s authority is found on the earth. But that doesn’t really separate us or make us all that different. In the end, every person will have the same opportunities to understand truth and live it.

    I have no ability to judge whether you will live with God after this life. It sounds like you are a sincere, decent, and Christian person. My personal opinion is that you will live with God again.


  5. Kenneth says:

    Would anyone like to explain why you think it is important to debate whether or not Latter-day Saints should self-identify as “Christians”? (I am assuming some of the regular posters on the non-LDS side do think this is worthwhile.) To me, this topic seems like a distraction from more important matters.

  6. grindael says:

    Bottom line- I believe that in order to be saved, every soul, including you and including me, must accept Christ and receive His ordinances through His servants

    But that is not what the Bible teaches. In order to be saved we must believe in Jesus. That is all. I have quoted it over and over again.

    In Mormonism, you can’t even “receive His ordinances” without covenanting to obey regulations. What FOF is claiming is the deception of Mormonism. There is a qualifier to it, you MUST DO WORKS and OBEY REGULATIONS to be saved. For example, here is Mormon “apostle” Boyd K. Packer,

    “The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy.” (“The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises”, Ensign, May 1996, emphasis mine).

    You are TOLD that BEFORE you can even be baptized that you MUST OBEY a REGULATION. This is salvation BY FORCE. Before Jesus Grace can even be applied to you (which is only a resurrection in Mormonism) you must agree to obey regulations. This is not the Gospel of Jesus. Paul REBUKES those who set up this kind of false dichotomy:

    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

    “Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.” (Colossians 2:20-23, emphasis mine)

    There is freedom is Christ alone. There is only slavery in Mormon “prophets” who do not understand the message of Christ, preach a false Christ based on the Pseudepigrapha of Jo Smith.

  7. SR says:

    Thanks, FOF, for your response to my question. It was pretty much exactly what I expected you to say, and I don’t mean that as anything other than a statement of fact. The other fact of the matter is, I reject Mormonism. I reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. I reject the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon. I will never set foot in a Mormon temple. I will not be baptized by a Mormon priesthood holder. I will not obey the Word of Wisdom. And I also do not believe that after I die I will have any chance, whatsoever, to change my mind.

    I have all of “the truth” I need right now in Jesus Christ. He’s the only thing I need, and that’s not going to change.

    I’ve spent a long time trying to understand how someone can profess to be a member of “the only true Church” and the “restored Church” on this earth and yet not be willing to concede that people who don’t belong to that church, who aren’t following its ordinances, who don’t get married in its temples, who aren’t baptized into it, are still saved. If that’s the case here, what’s the point of the LDS and what Joseph Smith claimed at all?

  8. Alex says:

    Sola Fide and Sola Scriputa (by faith and the scriptures alone) are merely Protestant heresies which are rejected by the vast majority of believers who profess to be Christian. Radical fundamentalist Evagelicals constitute only a small part of Christendom yet they have the hubris to claim Christianity as their sole possession and exclude all others who disagree with their extremist views on theology.

  9. Rick B says:

    Typical Mormon, Come here and say something while having nothing to say. The Bible tells us, No one knows your a fool until you open your mouth and show everyone.

  10. faithoffathers says:


    I never said you are “saved.” You asked my opinion as to whether you would live in Heaven with God someday. I believe that when there will be many people that will accept the truth when they can see it without the bias and influence of those through whom they get their information. But, each person will decide that on their own.

    Grindael- your definition of belief excludes the reality that action and obedience are inherent in belief. It doesn’t matter how many times you quote statements about having to belief to be saved. You are ignoring what it means to believe.

    And by the way, you demonstrate how truly little you know about our doctrine when you claim we believe grace only applies to the resurrection. I could not imagine a more incorrect claim.


    Don’t get me wrong- I believe no person will enter the Kingdom of God who does not accept His servants and prophets. And that includes Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I simply have an open mind as to what constitutes a person’s opportunity to know the truth. I don’t know anything about your exposure to the church and whether that exposure has occured through filters of cynicism and unbelief or not.

  11. PaleRider says:

    insert- one of your favorite Mormon doctrines and they end are merely Mormon heresies which are rejected by the vast majority of believers who profess to be Christian. Radical fundamentalist Mormons constitute only a small part of Christendom yet they have the hubris to claim Christianity as their sole possession and exclude all others who disagree with their extremist views on theology.

    It seems that you have forgotten or refuse to look at the history of Mormon claims of revealed religion in the latter days. Christianity with all its various rites may happen to disagree on certain aspects of the Faith but your claim that, by faith and scripture alone, being a heresy is quite a statement. Since you claim they are heresies do you rank them among some of those most heretical doctrines e.g. Docetism, Monothelitism or Sabellianism?

  12. Alex says:

    Do you have anything substantive to contribute to this discussion thread or are you only capable of spewing juvenile taunts?

    My point is that the vast majority of Christians (ie Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican etc. – that is to say about 85% of Christendom) reject the notion of Sola Fide -(salvation by grace alone). It is the radical evangelicals who are theologically out of step with historical Christianity. Therefore, Evangelicals are in error in claiming that Sola Fide is a Christian doctrine when it is in fact soundly rejected by the vast majority of Christianity.

  13. MistakenTestimony says:


    You said, “your definition of belief excludes the reality that action and obedience are inherent in belief. It doesn’t matter how many times you quote statements about having to belief to be saved. You are ignoring what it means to believe.”

    And you are ignoring that believing in truth is even more important than that. When Christians say “Christian” they mean saved. When Mormons say “Christian” they mean any generic definition of whichever Jesus (true or false) one chooses to accept. If someone has faith in a false Christ then they are eternally condemned. Believing in truth is the goal, not just believing in anything.

  14. Alex says:

    Mistaken Testimony

    You state: “When Christians say “Christian” they mean saved.”

    You are clearly mistaken. You are confusing Evenagelicals with Christians. The two are not the same. Not every Christian is an Evagelical Protestant. Indeed (as I have previously pointed out) the vast majority of Christians do not prescribe to such Protestant heresies.

    I would contend that Trinitarianism is a false, non-biblical doctrine and therefore by your own formulation you believe in a false Christ and hence you are eternally damned.

  15. falcon says:

    Well the problem for Mormons is that they are following false prophets whose “product” is therefore false.
    The cool thing is that we have all of these former Mormons posting on this site who figured it out, left the LDS church and are now born again by the Spirit of God.
    We get these totally diluted TBMs showing up here but that’s good because it draws a contrast for the lurkers who, like so many others, are streaming out of the LDS church at an alarming rate for the (LDS church).
    Think of it, fifty percent of returning missionaries go inactive. Two thirds of those on the rolls of the LDS church are inactive. This is testimony to the falseness of Mormonism. There will always be the hardcore Mormons, but there ability to attract converts is becoming almost impossible especially in the US.
    Thank the Lord God for the internet and sites like this which have such awesome posters, most of whom are former Mormons.
    That must really stick in the craw of the TBMs.

  16. falcon says:

    As Christians, we can prove that what we believe is what the primitive Christian Church believed.
    Mormons can’t prove that Mormonism was around until Joseph Smith went off the rails and started to interject all sorts of weird and bizarre doctrines and practices into the religion he started.
    There is no “restoration” because there was nothing to restore. I have yet had any Mormon provide any evidence that Mormonism existed in the first century. In fact there are Mormon sects that totally reject the LDS beliefs and practices. So it would seem that there is a lot of confusion out there regarding what exactly the “restoration” is.
    The FLDS declare the LDS apostate Mormons. There’s a least one group that left Smith when he dumped the Book of Commandments and took the church in a direction that was said to be not consistent with the restoration.
    So unless the LDS bunch can provide some sort of evidence that they are first century Christians, they will be seen as nothing but a mixed breed religion.

  17. Alex says:


    I was wondering when you would show up.

    You state: “fifty percent of returning missionaries go inactive”
    You made this up – in other words it is a lie.
    You state: “Two thirds of those on the rolls of the LDS church are inactive”
    Another false statistic you have conjured up – in other words it is a lie.

    How many Catholics or Protestants regularly attend Sunday services? If you check a bonified and reputable compiler of religious statistics such as Pew Forum you would find that church activity rates amongst Catholics and Protestants is much, much, much less that that in the LDS Church.
    Thus by your own distorted reasoning this lower activity rate is a “testimony” of the falseness of these churches.

    You state: “ability to attract converts is becoming almost impossible especially in the US.”
    This is an embarrsassing obvious falsehood on your part – in other words it is yet another lie. Are we beginning to see a pattern here?

    The simple truth is that in its 183 year history, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints has never been stronger and its missionary efforts have never been as successful as hundreds of thousands of truth-seeking people join the ranks of the saints.

    Again, simple reality is the direct opposite of your decietful statements.

    This must really stick in the craw of the Anti’s.

  18. Rick B says:

    Alex said

    Do you have anything substantive to contribute to this discussion thread or are you only capable of spewing juvenile taunts?

    Your one to talk, your very first response was

    the silly drivel that emanates from this blog site.

    I only pointed out that you really had nothing to say,, but really wanted to say something, and that is what fools do according to proverbs.

  19. Alex says:


    Again I ask:
    Do you have anything substantive to contribute to this discussion thread or are you only capable of spewing juvenile taunts?

    In this thread I have pointed out that the vast majority of Christians do not adhere to such doctrines as Sola Fide. This is contrary to the mistaken notions of many evangelicals who consider that their radical theology is compatible with the beliefs of the rest of Christendom – it clearly isn’t.

    In this thread I have pointed out that not every Christian is an Evangelical protestant.

    In this thread I have also pointed out the many decietful statements of our notorious Falcon.

    Now what has been your contibution???

    You stated: “I only pointed out that you really had nothing to say,, but really wanted to say something, and that is what fools do according to proverbs.

    Rick, you own words condemn you.

  20. jardim says:

    Howdy everyone! I’m yet another one led out of Mormonism. It’s been about a year since I decided to to get to know the real God of this universe. I joined a Christian church to be part of that faith community. I studied and prayed a lot over my transition out of the LDS church. For a while I doubted that there might even be a God. If the LDS church had been able to deceive me for 27 years, would Christianity prove to be fake too?

    But I decided to read the Bible and keep praying. I kept getting different translations and comparing them. I felt like my old way of praying Mormon-style wasn’t working for me, especially once I began to learn about the Trinity and I realized it was okay to talk to Jesus because he is God too.

    I’m happy about what I’ve learned about the Bible, the ancient prophets prophets and Israel, Jesus himself, and the history of Christianity. And I have a bigger collection of books about Judaism and Christianity than my local library here in Utah has. I’m not afraid to research different opinions now. I soon discovered there is a lot of evidence historically and archaeologically to support what Christians say about the Bible or the early church.

    So I say, yes, it bothers me when Mormons say they are Christian. I used to think I was, but, to me, it’s like saying I’m a Justin Bieber fan because I like one of his songs.

    And, in closing, I thank God for this blog. It’s been a big help to me–posts and comments both.

  21. PaleRider says:


    I understand your point thus my question- Since you claim they (Sola Fide, Sola Escritura) are heresies do you rank them among some of those most heretical doctrines e.g. Docetism, Monothelitism or Sabellianism? If yes, why? By what criteria are you using to make your assertions?

    Also, since you stated ~85% of Christendom rejects Sola Fide as heretical what percentage of Christendom believe that Mormons are theologically out of step with traditional Christianity?

  22. MJP says:

    FoF, you said, “And that is completely appropriate given Christ’s approach in His ministry and acceptance of all people and inviting them all to learn of Him and follow Him. ”

    The question, though, which was not addressed in your post, is who is Christ?


    You seem pretty sure that you are correct that all Christians believe something different from the idea of sola scriptura. I honestly don’t know about the statistics, but could care less. I do believe all we need to know can be found in the Bible. I also believe that God can use other sources to speak to us. And I’d love to see the statistics on that issue. I can’t think of any traditional Christian who would deny that God can speak to us in any number of ways.

    But even so, the discussion of sola scriptura is a mere distraction. You miss the most important issue while you try to divide Christians against each other. The most important point is that we agree on the fundamental question such as Jesus actually was and what he actually did for us.

    And your efforts miss the idea that the Bible is still the supreme source of God’s word in the various groups of Christians. Sure, Catholics believe a Pope is here to lead the church and to commune with God. They believe in tradition, intercession of saints, and other ideas that protestants do not. There is not unanimity in between the western church and the eastern church in all facets of our faith. Even western protestant churches have different views on some things.

    So what? We all agree on what matters. Do you remember Peter’s dream telling him to eat unclean meat? There simply are some things that do not matter, and should be overlooked. These differences are not as important as you claim.

    Unfortunately, the very unity of all of Christendom is the very point at which your faith leaves you outside of Christianity. And that is the point where we have to define who Jesus was and what he did for us.

    It is in the answer of “who is Jesus” that all of this begins and ends. And as the article suggests, since LDS believe in such a different Jesus, why should Mormons include us as Christians?

  23. Rick B says:

    All you have provide is your opinion. Can you back up your statement with facts? Noo you cannot.

  24. Alex says:


    You display an amazing capacity to contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.

    You state: “all we need to know can be found in the Bible” but you contradict this statement by claiming that: “God can use other sources to speak to us”. You do not specify what are these “other sources” but if the Bible is indeed sufficient then why employ the medium of “other sources”? Frankly, God is the ultimate source of God’s word – not some theologian’s incomplete and faulty interpretation of Biblical passages..

    You claim that I “try to divide Christians against each other”. Frankly this is a silly statement. The thousands on contending Christian sects do not need my asistance in beingh divisive. Christian sects disagree one from another on virtually every conceivable doctrinal point. This is of course why there are literally thousands of different sects with differing interpretations of theological doctrine.

    You state the: “We all agree on what matters.” Well such universal agreement is obviously not the case given the fact of the long histrory of schism and interneccine strife between these competing sects. My point is that Christianity is obviously not unified as nearly 2,000 years of bloody history has sadly demonstrated.

    You state that: “It is in the answer of “who is Jesus” that all of this begins and ends”. With this I agree. However, I find the convoluted doctrine of Trinitarianism to be self-contradictory, utterly unbiblical and thoroughly untenable. The inter-galactic nebuluos three-in-one god of Trinitariansim simply doesn’t fly.

    Unlike Evangelicals, Mormons do not consign all and any who disagree with LDS doctrine to eternal hellfires. Unlike Evangelicals, Mormons are inclusive and seek common ground and understanding amongst all faiths. This is why Mormons include all who profess Christ and strive to follow Christ’s example as being believing Christians regardless of personal doctrinal belief. Frankly this is a more Christian approach.

  25. Rick B says:

    If you cannot prove what your saying then dont say it. Why is that so hard?
    You said

    Sola Fide and Sola Scriputa (by faith and the scriptures alone) are merely Protestant heresies

    If you say, polls say so many Christians deny or believe this, then so what, polls prove nothing. I was never polled,no one in my church was, and I never meet anyone who was.

    Many times on this blog, LDS like you come here and say stuff, when asked to prove it, you cannot.
    when we say LDS taught, we are asked to back it up. When we do, and we use quotes from your books or prophets, then we are told we dont know what were talking about. So either way, you guys hate truth and cannot back up what you say, then you need to resort to, You are just spewing juvenile taunts? It just proves you cannot back up what your saying.

  26. Old man says:

    I know some do not welcome my presence here & what I say may possibly upset certain people but nevertheless I’m here in response to what Alex said here:
    “Unlike Evangelicals, Mormons do not consign all and any who disagree with LDS doctrine to eternal hellfires. Unlike Evangelicals, Mormons are inclusive and seek common ground and understanding amongst all faiths. This is why Mormons include all who profess Christ and strive to follow Christ’s example as being believing Christians regardless of personal doctrinal belief. Frankly this is a more Christian approach.”
    First let me say that there is only one kind of Christian & that is a person who has come to know the Christ of the Bible. ALL True Christians are literally born again of the Spirit & while there may be differences in doctrine between Christian groups there is NO difference concerning Dogma. Allow me to explain as it’s clear you do not understand. Dogma is divinely revealed doctrine; doctrine is taught by men & is not necessarily divinely revealed. So, ALL Christians no matter what they choose to be called believe the SAME Dogma, Doctrine becomes important only where it contradicts what has been divinely revealed. (As in Mormonism) The only Dogma to be found in the BofM is the Scripture plagiarized by your false prophet.
    Second, the only reason the LDS seeks common ground is because of your leaders desire to appear mainstream, not so many years ago they were proud of their difference. Do not tell us that Mormons are inclusive, I can’t think of a no more exclusive organization than the LDS so you are either lying or for you, the word has a different meaning to that generally accepted.

    “Frankly this is a more Christian approach.”
    That’s nonsense, what you are actually doing is presenting a circular argument:
    ‘My church tells me what the Christian approach should be; I believe what my church tells me about the Christian approach. My church follows this path therefore my church must be true’

    You said this to MJP
    “You display an amazing capacity to contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.”
    May I say that you display an amazing capacity to misunderstand what MJP said?
    He is absolutely correct & there is no contradiction. Did he say that God can use ‘other sources’ yes he did. Did he say that God uses ‘other sources’ to reveal NEW things? No he didn’t Have you not understood what it means to be indwelt by the Spirit? Let me tell you this my friend, if you truly were indwelt by the Spirit then you would know with a certainty that God speaks to man using other sources but unlike the ‘other sources’ within Mormonism God NEVER contradicts what He has already revealed. One further point concerning this, if Mormons were truly indwelt by the Spirit they would have no need of a prophet.

    Ps. I see nothing juvenile or taunting in RickB words, if anyone is speaking in a juvenile fashion it is you. Why not take a leaf out of FoF’s book? Whilst I disagree with most of what he says he at least deserves respect for the way he speaks to people

  27. falcon says:

    You wondered when I would show up here? Why? I practically live here although I do have a life outside of Mormon Coffee.
    I’m wondering something. You seem all too familiar with us for someone who it appears just started posting yesterday. I don’t remember “Alex” here before.
    Are you one of our former Mormon posters resurrected under a new name? I don’t think “Alex” would be your temple handle, but who knows?

    You said the statistics I gave regarding Mormon numbers are lies. Can you prove that? You make all sorts of assertions regarding what I wrote but you don’t back it up with any data so I suggests you’re just stating your own opinion as fact which is typical of an Arrogant True Believing Mormon.
    You’re typical of that type of Mormon; living in a fantasy world of LDS dreams. I don’t know where you’ve been, but your own church is alarmed by the defections within the ranks.
    You need to get up to speed friend. Ever hear of a guy named Marlin Jensen and his remarks at Utah State University?
    I know it’s time for you to bear your testimony with all of the “I Knows”. This is what “I know”. The LDS church can’t hold on to their members and the retention rate in foreign countries is abysmal.
    Get your head out of the clouds friend.

  28. falcon says:

    So Mormons want to be called Christians but they don’t want to subscribe to any of the foundational beliefs of the Christian faith. That’s quite a trick!
    These doctrines (of the faith) are historical and ancient in origin and come directly from the Biblical text. The writings of the Church Fathers demonstrate their reasoning and understanding as to what those who walked with Jesus, taught the first and second generation of believers.
    The reason that the LDS church via Joseph Smith and his subsequent pretender prophets reject these foundational doctrines is because they don’t support their own crazy uncles in the attic invented religion.
    In fact, these false prophets had to invent conspiracy theories in order to circumvent what the Bible teaches. In doing so, they tossed the Bible under the bus and making their own blue sky thought processes more important than the inspired Scriptural text. The Bible is called “God breathed”. It comes right from the Spirit of God.
    So I don’t know why Mormons want to be called Christians when they reject everything that the orthodox faith teaches and has taught since the time of the apostles? But who knows why something like Mormonism appeals to some people when it’s so obviously false.
    I think this writer puts it well:

    “The Mormon doctrine of God does not correspond to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Mormonism rejects the central logic of this doctrine (one God in three eternal persons) and develops its own doctrine of God – a doctrine that bears practically no resemblance to Trinitarian theology. The Mormon doctrine of God includes many gods, not one. Furthermore, Mormonism teaches that we are what God once was and are becoming what He now is. That is in direct conflict with Christian orthodoxy.”

    “Normative Christianity is defined by the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the other formulas of the doctrinal consensus. These doctrines are understood by Christians to be rooted directly within the Bible and rightly affirmed by all true believers in all places and throughout all time. As one leading figure in the early church explained, the true faith is recognized and affirmed everywhere, always, and by all (Vincent of Lérins defined the orthodox tradition as those truths affirmed “ubique, semper, ab omnibus”).”

    “Without doubt, Mormonism borrows Christian themes, personalities, and narratives. Nevertheless, it rejects what orthodox Christianity affirms and it affirms what orthodox Christianity rejects. It is not Christianity in a new form or another branch of the Christian tradition. By its own teachings and claims, it rejects that very tradition.”

  29. falcon says:

    In my recent trip to Nauvoo, one thing that was obvious to me is that Mormons do live in, what our former Mormon contributors call, The Mormon Bubble.
    It’s quite extraordinary really. About the only Mormons that I encountered that had a clue are those who belong to the Community of Christ sect of Mormonism. Except for their shared history, the CofC folks have little in common with their LDS relatives.
    These folks actually live in reality. They get it, as the saying goes. The LDS don’t “get it!”. The LDS have to try and shape their world to match the fantasy that the LDS church has created especially when it comes to their history. When I spoke with the CofC I actually felt that I was talking to a Christian.
    At one point, this person shows me the “sunstone” and replicas of other symbols that are on the temple and asks, “Do you know what this is?” I said, “yes”. It was then explained, “You see Joseph Smith got into Free Masonry…………….”
    It was quite refreshing actually talking to someone who had a clue and wasn’t living in some mystified bubble. Cultists are sort of interesting to observe up close and in their own rarefied environment where everything supports their false notions.
    And so it is with the LDS desire to want to be considered and called Christians. It’s a false proposition not support by facts but by the modern LDS desire to be accepted by Christians and considered mainstream. The only place that will happen is in their own minds and in “the bubble”.

  30. erusselljohnson says:

    Joseph Fielding Smith said, “This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell. Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:210).

    The point of my article was that it’s unfair for Latter-day Saints (like several posting here, including F0F) to say to SR that this person is “absolutely” a Christian, thus making her (if this is a “her”) spiritual situation sound “all right,” even though this person’s description was clear that she rejected the fundamental tenets of the LDS Church. She even took this to mean she was saved (though F0F denied this), but can you see the confusion? F0F, are you happy that SR may take your words (and the words of your leaders, in recent years at least) in stride–ah, heck, I’m a Christian too–and according to Joseph Fielding Smith will be headed to “hell”? Shouldn’t that concern you more? You might think that Smith is overexagerating. Well, since it has been taught there is no jumping kingdoms, not getting right in this mortality with Joseph Smith and the LDS Church seems pretty serious. Quit confusing us. Tell us that we are “false” Christians or, better yet, not even Christian at all. Those of us who are “Evangelical” or “Protestant” Christians areapparently headed to a family-less eternity. But you can help us. Quit muddling the issue and cease calling us fellow Christians. Let SR know that she’s NOT alright, and no, you wouldn’t call her a Christian in the true sense of the word. Not “absolutely.” Maybe this will get the attention of someone like SR, who seems genuine, as well as other prospective converts who are being visited by (soon-t0-be) 90,000 missionaries. Perhaps both Mormonism and Christianity are wrong and some other ism is correct. The two ideologies certainly can’t both be right. If you’re right, what is your situation and what’s mine? And then allow me to tell you the outcome if I’m right and you’re wrong–there’s no doubt on our final destiations according to Christianity. And here’s the point. If Christianity really is true, then your eternal destiny concerns me. This is the purpose of Mormon Coffee–to discuss truth in an open forum and to let folks know we’re really serious about this matter, regardless of whether or not you might get offended when we make a stand and state unequivocally that , no, Mormons are not Christians according to the biblical sense of the word. I’m headed to Manti and won’t be able to respond, but thanks for listening. Eric Johnson

  31. grindael says:


    Please explain why Mormons have not added any books to their cannon in decades? According to Orson Pratt, this shows that the Mormons are without inspiration:

    Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches. The Lutheran Church prevailed in Germany and various portions of northern Europe. The Calvinist Church or Presbyterian Church [p.347] was also established. Henry the Eighth established and became head of the English Church. Wesley, at a later period, established a Church which has grown to great numbers at the present day. But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain. Go to all these 666 different Protestant denominations that have come out from the mother Church, and inquire of them, Have you inspired men among you? and their united voice is that God speaks no more in our day; no other message is given from heaven; no voice is heard from the eternal worlds; no angels are sent in these days; no inspired apostles are raised up to establish the Church and the Kingdom of God; no men are filled with the spirit of prophecy to portray the events of the future, or to accomplish and perform the work of God in our day. We enquire, “What have you?” “Oh we have 666 different denominations and we have surnamed ourselves Christians. We are Bible Christians.” How mistaken they are! Bible Christians were those who believed in having apostles and inspired prophets among them. Bible Christians could receive more revelation and add more books to the Bible; Bible Christians could converse with the Lord, and oftentimes beheld the lace of Jesus; they could Commune with holy angels; they had authority from God to lay hands upon those whom they baptized, for the reception or baptism of the Holy Ghost. This was what constituted ancient Zion; but inquire for these characteristics among these 666 different Christian denominations and they will tell you they are all gone, they have not any of them amongst them. Now suppose we take their word for it! I do, I really believe them. I think they tell the truth when they say they have no inspired men. I believe them when they say they have neither prophets nor apostles among them. Why do I believe them? Because they have received no new books in addition to the Bible, and whenever God had a people on the earth they were CONSTANTLY giving new books, inspired from on high, and WHEN THAT CEASES we draw the conclusion that inspiration has ceased. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346)

    Show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that there HAS to be more books. Show me where in the Bible it says we need more than the Holy Spirit to guide us and it is NECESSARY to add more to the Canon we already have. The Mormons have added little to their scriptures in the last 100 or so years. You no longer have a leg to stand on with this argument, because you add nothing to your own canon.

  32. grindael says:

    are rejected by the vast majority of believers who profess to be Christian.

    Professing to be Christian and being Christian are two different things. The Bible says what it says about faith and works. I only quoted the Bible here. Refute what I have said by the Bible. (If you can). The VAST majority of Christians reject the Book of Mormon as pseudepigrapha and Jo Smith as a false prophet. Do you really want to use that argument? Christians have every right not to canonize what they feel is not scripture.That is what you do, isn’t it? Only your own “prophets” have said that you MUST have constant books added. Your argument is a straw man & kinda hypocritical.

  33. falcon says:

    Can we claim to be Mormons? Not that any of us would really want to attach that label to ourselves, but using the Mormon arguments about being Christians, we could also claim to be Mormons.
    Could we claim to be “priesthood” holders? My buddy Rick the Hammer makes that claim. I don’t know, why not?
    Quite frankly, Mormonism, the full blown temple Mormon program, isn’t going to appeal to a very large portion of the population. In fact it’s going to appeal to a very small percentage of people who would even consider Mormonism.
    There has to be a very serious whitewash job done on Mormonism even to get someone to consider it in the first place. I watched a movie about Joseph Smith at one of the sites in Nauvoo. It was a real eye roller for my wife and I. Talk about an idealized version (that’s being kind) of this pretender.
    But there was a young couple in there sitting close to one another and just absolutely enraptured by the fantasy portrayal of the prophet. What I kept thinking was, “What’s going to happen to this couple if they ever get the truth?”
    We have a lot of former members posting here and they’ve given their accounts of the emotional upheaval and anger they felt once they got on to the scam.
    The Good News is, however, that God has brought these folks out of the cult and into a lasting relationship with His Son Jesus Christ. Falling out of Mormonism and into the arms of the Savior is a great catch that ends in eternal life.

  34. Rick B says:

    Falcon, while I claim to be a mormon, I am also thinking of leaving the mormon church. They just are not doing it for me.

    Alex, where did you go? Are you looking for the evidence I asked for?

  35. falcon says:

    Seriously. Would you like to come here at MC, where people know and understand Mormonism and try to defend it.
    It’s different if these guys are down at the wards and they can spin their yarns and make the old ladies cry at Fast and Testimony meetings. But their pseudo-intellectual approach here that thinly disguises an emotional buy-in that’s got them in a brain-lock just isn’t going to cut it. This is especially so since we have so many former Mormons posting here who had the testimony, but it couldn’t stand up to their honest investigation.
    These guys that are in the cult absolutely love the Joseph Smith is a prophet, the BoM is true and the LDS church is God’s one true church, scenario. I can see why for some it’s emotionally appealing and satisfying especially when you mix in all of the trappings of religion and the social structure that give their lives context and meaning.
    I’ve read enough testimonies of former Mormons to know that for those who are willing to take an honest look at the evidence that Mormonism is a false religious sect built on a fabricated history, their integrity won’t allow them to practice cognitive dissonance.
    I know it’s a challenge for folks who finally get to the truth to leave everything that had meaning and defined their lives and formed their identity.

    So anyway, when you decide to leave Mormonism Rick, call me and I’ll make the drive over to St. Paul and provide support for you. Just keep me away from the Viking fans.

  36. Mike R says:

    Jardim, welcome . Thanks for sharing .

  37. Mike R says:

    I was reading what Alex the critic said to Grindael yesterday( @ 2:50pm) about how he feels
    about those who he calls ” radical fundamentalist Evangelicals ” . This comment of his sure
    sounds like an example of the pot calling the kettle black . Mormons are small in number , but
    what have some of their leaders claimed as to what Christianity is ? They have stated that
    Mormonism is Christianity , Christianity is Mormonism , they are one in the same . That goes
    right along with Mormons being THE true christians today , members of THE only true church,
    all others constitute the church of the Devil . No wonder Mormon leaders have called the
    members of other churches ” cults” and “pseudo ” christians , and have excluded all others
    who disagree with their extremist doctrines as being outside the Body of Christ in these latter
    days in which we live . Of course the Mormon Missionaries will be very reluctant to admit to
    this and so it is necessary that ministries like MRM be available to let people know of this
    thereby giving them the chance to make an informed decision about Mormonism .
    So are Mormons christians ? Yes , according to a common dictionary definition of “christian” .
    I might also mention that I believe that just because someone sits in a Mormon Ward on Sunday
    morning does’nt give me cause to automatically say they are not a saved person , there are
    factors to consider before I can say they are not saved . But classic Mormon doctrine about God,
    Jesus , and how a person can receive eternal life ,if knowingly embraced , cannot not deliver a
    saving relationship with God —–if the Bible is the measuring rod .
    What is happening with the way that Mormons are deciding on who is a christian is that it lowers
    the bar so much that someone who does’nt accept Jesus to be God’s Son , or does’nt believe He
    rose from the dead , are still to be considered as christians .
    I think that a standard must be available today , a dividing line which identifies a person’s
    confession of what they believe about Jesus /God that can be a legitimate criteria to use in
    evaluation . I believe that the Bible serves as that Standard . It’s been called the bedrock of
    Christianity , therefore our belief /doctrine about who Jesus /God is must be fastened to it
    so as to be solid . Now there may be people who come to the Bible and then walk away with
    different interpretations about Jesus / salvation etc , but the standard remains by what we are
    accountable to before God at the end of the day . False prophets arising in these latter days
    try to advertise that they provide the exclusive spiritual truths necessary for salvation ,
    and many times these new revelations are admitted to be something that the Bible does’nt
    teach . Gal 1:8 can serve as a valuable criteria to use in evaluating these new teachings

  38. Rick B says:

    If you buy me diner I will leave right now. LOL

    Now on a more serious note, when the Mormon Missionarys came over to my place, we talked for about 1 hour and 45 minutes. The first question I asked them was what I believe God told me to ask them to start off the talks. I read them some of these verses and just mentioned the rest.

    Matthew 24:11
    Matthew 7:15
    Matthew 24:24
    Mark 13:22
    Acts 20:29
    Gal 1:8-9
    1 John 4:1
    2 Peter 2:1

    I then asked them, We have many religions out their like, the JW’s, Muslims, Buddists, Etc.
    In light of the passages that talk about wolves in sheeps clothing, and false prophets and false teachers and wolves will come from with in our own ranks. Then how do we know which one(s) are not wolves and false teachers. All they could say was, we will now them by their fruits.

    I told them, that reply does not answer my question and it does not tell me who is a false teacher. I said, the Bible tells us, satan can come in the form of an angel of light. I said, Satan will not come to you and honestly tell you, he is satan and wants to take you to hell. So he will tell you he has the gospel and wants to share the truth with you.

    I have a copy of “The Seer” by orson Pratt. So I opened it to page 215 and it is the question and answers on Doctrine section and I showed them one question. But before I show it to them I told them, I dont believe JS is A true prophet of God, I reject the BoM and reject Mormonism.

    In light of that, here was the question I read to them,

    Q. what will be the consequence if they do not embrace the Book of Mormon as a divine revelation?

    A. They will be destroyed from the land and sent down to hell, like all other generations who have rejected a divine message.

    Q. In what way will the Lord destroy this nation if they reject the Book of Mormon?

    A. By a succession of the most terrible judgments. Plauge will follow plauge in rapid succession, desolating populous cities and destroying hundreds and thousands. The rains of heaven will be staid, and the earth will not yeild forth her wonted harvests, and thousands will pine away with hunger and perish.

    I pointed out this has not happended and I have rejected the BoM and Mormonism for the last 15 years. Along with many others. Funny how these things were taught and have never happended. So Alex, When will you back up your statments? And can you explain why your leaders taught things like what the seer said and why they still have not happended?

    I can, your have a false prophet and teachers.

  39. jardim says:

    Thank you, Mike R.

    As a Mormon, I only read parts of the Bible when it was in the manual for a lesson or class. I missed out on a lot that would have made it clear who Jesus is and how salvation happens. Most of my LDS friends weren’t Bible readers either. The presidents of the church (i.e. Benson and Hinckley) challenged the members to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover but I don’t ever remember them demanding that we read the the whole Bible. It’s funny because they could probably get people to do it since they get them to do so much else.

    I gave a NIV translation to a friend who immediately read the story of Joseph in Egypt (I had to find it for her when she asked where it was) and she exclaimed that it was so easy to understand. She asked me why the church insisted on the King James translation still.

    A lot of intelligent Mormons I know look kinda sideways at the Bible like they aren’t sure if it’s safe to drive. And it isn’t. It is definitely disruptive to the Mormon worldview. How can a Muslim follow Islam without the Quran? How can a Christian be Christian without the Bible? Would I tell my best friend that we can be friends but I’m going to just ignore everything he says?

    Paul said something that expresses how I feel having been LDS and now having been saved. I had a wry grin as I saw how the LDS church Sunday School manual skips over the part about how Paul could not make himself acceptable by obeying the law. (See

    “I did everything the Law demands in order to please God. But Christ has shown me that what I once thought was valuable is worthless. Nothing is as wonderful as knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have given up everything else and count it all as garbage. All I want is Christ and to know that I belong to him. I could not make myself acceptable to God by obeying the Law of Moses. God accepted me simply because of my faith in Christ. All I want is to know Christ and the power that raised him to life.”
    Philippians 3:6a-10a, CEV

  40. Alex says:

    Rick Beaudin,

    You are not now nor have you ever been a Mormon or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. So quit the ruse.


    You reference as your source the spurious claims of an ex-Mormon and the mindless pap of an ABC affiliate. Is this what constitutes “research” at MRM???. May I respectfully suggest that you “get your head out of the clouds”.

    The simple truth is that I know that you are making up false statistics (in other words – lies) concerning LDS Church activity rates because the the LDS Church does not measure or monitor the activity rates of its members nor would that be practical or possible. Hence any claims that only “X%” of the Church membership are active or inactive are spurious.

    Almost from the very beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints critics and Anti’s have been crowing over the imminent demise of the Mormoms. This has been the “Big Lie” of the Anti’s. The simple truth is that day in and day out, week after week, month after month, year after year after year people are finding the authentic Jesus Christ, entering the waters of baptism, joining the ranks of the saints and helping to build up the Kingdom of God on earth. No amount of howling from the Anti’s will deter the Lord’s progress.

  41. Rick B says:

    Alex, Leave it to a mormon to come here, make up facts and figures and tell us what Christians believe and dont believe, but then dont provide and evidence for it.

    Then as far as telling me I am not a mormon and never have been. Thats funny how you cry about us saying Mormons are not Christians, but you can tell me I am not a mormon.

    Mormons claim they are christain because they read the Bible, They believe in Jesus, they believe in Grace and the Holy Ghost. I could go on. If thats all it takes for you guys to claim your a christian, then I guess I am a mormon since I read all 4 standard works, Went to some LDS services, I do believe Joseph smith did live on this earth and then die. I also do believe and do what your scriptures teach and say and listen to your prophets and do what they say. So using your logic I am a mormon if your a christain, and no amount of howling from you will stop me.

  42. Rick B says:

    In case some one says or thinks, What is Rick doing when he says he does what the LDS scriptures teach and how does he follow the prophets, well I follow this.

    Read pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.
    I quote Joseph F Smith. “CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false”.


    D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public. If I am your enemy which I don’t feel I am but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff. Jesus said love your enemy. D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church’s public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any. why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the Mormon prophets? if so, then I am.


    I quote Orsan Pratt still pg 15. “we ask from you the same generosity–protect us in the exercise of our religious rights–CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds”.

    So yes Alex, I am doing what your Scriptures teach as well as your prophets. So again, by your defention I am a mormon and your a christian or I’m not a mormon and your not a christian. Your choice.

  43. Rick B says:

    I have a reply in Mod Jail. It comes right after my post that says your making up facts and figures. The next reply talks about what I do to follow your prophets and scriptures. It explains how I am doing it.

  44. Alex says:


    You state: “while I claim to be a mormon, I am also thinking of leaving the mormon church”
    This is a blatant lie. You are not a Mormon nor have you ever been a member of the LDS Church.

    You also state: “I do believe Joseph smith did live on this earth and then die. I also do believe and do what your scriptures teach and say and listen to your prophets and do what they say.”
    This is also a blatant lie. You do not believe in LDS scriputures nor do you listen to LDS prophets and do what they say.

    My friend, you have a severe problem with being honest. Seek professional help.

  45. Rick B says:

    Alex, Call me a liar, but then you yourself do the same thing, Funny how that works. Lets see, You make up facts about our church and what we believe, then when I ask for evidence, you dont provide it and ignore the question like I never asked it.

    Then you said

    You do not believe in LDS scriputures nor do you listen to LDS prophets and do what they say.

    I told you, wait for my reply to get posted, It explains who I listen to and what I am doing as far as obeying what they say. Then as I said, If I’m not a mormon using your logic, then your not a christian, never have been and are a lair.

  46. Alex says:


    First off, I have no idea what church you belong to nor do I particularly care. Rick what facts are you referring to? When I state that about 85% of Christendom does not accept Sola Fide (salvation by faith alone) I am of course referring to the Apolstolic faiths of Christianity namely the Roman Catholic Church (which by itself constitutes about 65% of all Christians), the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches (another 10% of all Christians), the Anglican Church, the Coptic Church, the Ethiopian Church and the various mid-Eastern Churches etc. (about another 10% of all Christians). That tallies up to be about 85% of all Christians in Christendom – these are broad numbers which may vary slightly depending upon your source. You can easily look these figures up yourself.

    Guess what Rick, all these afroementioned Christians reject Sola Fida as a valid theological doctrine. The Sola Fide is a doctrine espoused by radical Evangelical Proestatnts and a few other churches which constuitute maybe 15% of all remaining Christians – a slim minority that are out of step theologically with traditional Christianity.

    Hence my statement that Sola Fide is NOT a Christian doctrine given that it is indeed rejercted by the vasy majority of practicing Christians.

    Now dispute that with facts if you can.

  47. Mike R says:

    In the middle of my last post I inadvertently typed in the word “not” (after the word ” cannot” ).

  48. falcon says:

    You wrote:
    “…….concerning LDS Church activity rates because the the LDS Church does not measure or monitor the activity rates of its members nor would that be practical or possible.”

    The LDS church doesn’t keep statistics on church growth, attendance of the membership, the number of people who leave the fold, etc?
    You my friend are a clueless Kool Aid drinker who are so into the “Joseph Smith is a prophet, the BoM is true, the LDS church is the one true church” nonsense that your brain is pickled.
    You don’t even know that the LDS church keeps statistics? The LDS church is obsessed with statistics!
    I would suggest that you get your head out of the clouds Alex. Retention in the sect is a major problem and to deny it is to deny reality which, of course, is typical of Mormons who so badly want Mormonism to be true.

    Here’s another one:

  49. falcon says:

    I think you’ll probably make your way out of Mormonism eventually, but it’s going to be a very difficult and emotionally draining process for you.
    You’re at the stage right now where in your mind the LDS church is true and anything said to the contrary is a lie. Not only that but all evidence and references that prove that the LDS church is a false religion, are not acceptable and just more lies, distortions and put forth by enemies of the one true church.
    It’s a stage. It will pass. Pretty soon the preponderance of evidence will give way to a reluctant acknowledgment that maybe the evidence is true but there’s a reason for this, that and the other thing that demonstrates that the church isn’t what it claims.
    All the former Mormons who post here have been through the emotional stages including denial, anger, frustration and at some point resolution with the realization that everything they had put their faith, hopes and dreams into, is a lie.
    Well with this resolution will come a decision as to whether to dump religion and God all together or respond to God’s call.
    That’s a huge step in the process.

  50. Rick B says:

    Just because you claim people say they are Christians and they deny the Bible or parts of it does not make them Christians.

    Jesus said, Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord is saved and knows Him. Mormons claim to be Christian yet they deny much of what True christians Believe, and FLDS, and RLDS and many other off shoot groups of Mormons Claim to be Mormon or also want to be called, LDS. Yet LDS wont allow them to say that.

    I find it sad that LDS like You and Shem and FoF can claim to be Christian, Yet you all cry when I claim to be Mormon using your Logic and you claim other groups like the FLDS and RLDS as I said want to be called LDS, Yet you wont allow them to. Why is it ok for you guys to be Exclusive Yet no one else can?

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