Don’t patronize us, please

In a 2007 General Conference talk, Seventy Gary J. Coleman referred to a story of fourteen-year-old Cortnee, the daughter of an LDS mission president, who was confused when her high school classmates questioned her Christianity. She went home and asked her mother, “Mom, are we Christians?” Coleman answered,

“As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are a Christian, and I am too. I am a devout Christian who is exceedingly fortunate to have greater knowledge of the true ‘doctrine of Christ’ since my conversion to the restored Church. These truths define this Church as having the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I now understand the true nature of the Godhead, I have access to additional scripture and revelation, and I can partake of the blessings of priesthood authority. Yes, Cortnee, we are Christians.”

The very foundation of Mormonism is based on the effects of the “Great Apostasy” and the belief for a need in a “restoration” of Christianity. In an April 2013 General Conference address, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk titled “Followers of Christ.” He explained,

Like all other Christians, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints study the life of our Savior as reported in the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I will review examples and teachings contained in these four books of the Holy Bible and invite each of us and all other Christians to consider how this restored Church and each of us qualify as followers of Christ” (Ensign, May 2013, p. 96).

He says that “like other followers of Christ, we sometimes find it difficult to separate ourselves from the world and its traditions.” On the next page, he writes, “Like other Christians, we pray in all our worship services.”

warning-mass-confusion-aheadPerhaps he didn’t mean it, but I believe his blurring the lines patronize “other Christians.” After all, he makes it appear that the Mormons and other Christians are somehow similar in their claims to truth.  Yet the context of the article shows what it means to be a true “follower of Christ.” Consider several of the traits that he provides:

  • “Jesus taught that baptism was necessary to enter the kingdom of God”—However, the idea of baptismal regeneration (water baptism necessary for salvation) is rejected by Evangelical Christians. In addition, Oaks makes no mention how Mormonism teaches that this rite must be performed with the proper authority (via the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods); any baptisms performed by “other Christians” are not efficacious in the eyes of Latter-day Saints.
  •  “Jesus gave commandments”—Obeying these commandments are necessary for eternal life (exaltation). Oaks explains, “They range all the way from worldly practices like political correctness and extremes in dress and grooming to deviations from basic values like the eternal nature and function of the family.” Regarding that last point, those outside the church do not have access to everything a Mormon has, including the 1995 talk given by then-President Gordon B. Hinckley called “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” In addition, “other Christians” also do not have the Word of Wisdom or have an understanding of or access to the temple and the ordinances performed there. In other words, only those inside the church can truly know what must be done to be fully obedient.
  • “Jesus taught that ‘men ought always to pray.’” If prayer is to “our Father in Heaven”—different in image than the God worshipped by other Christians—then how can the prayers of these “other Christians” be given with authority?
  • “The Savior called Twelve Apostles to assist in His Church and gave them the keys and authority to carry on after His death.” Oaks explains how the Mormon Church “follows this example in its organization and in its conferral of keys and authority on Apostles.” In other words, every “other Christian” organization does not have this structure, which means they do not have the “keys and authority to carry on after His death.”
  • “Jesus taught, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’” Oaks explains, “From modern revelation, unique to the restored gospel, we know that the commandment to seek perfection is part of God the Father’s plan for the salvation of His children.” Yet while good works are crucial in the sanctification process, Evangelical Christians do not interpret this verse as Latter-day Saints do. After all, justification comes by God’s grace through faith. Period.

Here is my request to Mr. Oaks and other Latter-day Saints. If you insist on clinging to the name “Christian,” then please quit referring to those outside your church as “Christians.” It must be understood that the average layperson is unable to grasp the implications of this speech because it is difficult to read between the lines. Since Mormonism teaches that a person must be baptized with apostolic authority, must follow the commandments given by God, and must belong to a church with proper organization, it is clear that “other Christians” are not “just like” you. If nothing else, differentiate yourselves by using “Restored” or “Authoritative” in front of “Christian” to describe yourselves. Or, even better, why not just claim to be “Latter-day Saints” or “Mormons”? But please, quit patronizing Christians. Just call a spade a spade. Confusing the issue is just not fair. Or honest.

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110 Responses to Don’t patronize us, please

  1. Alex says:


    I think that you will eventually embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ and become a Mormon. If not in this life then in the next. Notwithstanding all of the evidence and proof as to the veracity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints being what it claims to be – namely the Kingdom of God on Earth led directly by Jesus Christ himself and through his annointed prophets you still obstinately refuse and reject Jesus.

    Don’t worry, its just a phase most of us have to go through. You will make it eventually.

    Rick, are you suggesting that all Roman Catholics, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Anglicans, Copts, and many Protestants are NOT christian just because they do not embrace your radical, non-Biblical doctrine of salvation by faith alone???

    You claim to be a Christian but you deny much of what the Bible teaches. Therefore by your own distorted definition you are Not a True Christian.

  2. falcon says:

    All of your bluster won’t deny the fact that if God wants you, He will have you. You can fight all you want but the bottom line is that God is sovereign and He will have His way.
    Now you know that the claims of Mormonism are supported only by your emotional buy-in to the BoM. I’ll admit, emotion is a strong hook to keep someone entangled in a web of deceit that makes the thing believed in seem to be true.
    When the Spirit of God moves upon someone however, try as they may, they can’t resist. Read the Book of Jonah in the OT. He was stubborn. He even thought he could run away from God. As we know, that didn’t work out for him.
    You’ve have a divine appointment by being here. You will return here time and again because you can’t resist the pull. You couldn’t stop, even if you wanted to.
    Whether it’s today, tomorrow or a year from now, you will succumb to God’s call. It’s happened to others. It will happen to you. The dynamics with Mormons is pretty much the same in their awakening. I know what stage you’re in. God will melt your heart.
    It’s just the way it is.

  3. fifth monarchy man says:


    You say,

    When I state that about 85% of Christendom does not accept Sola Fide (salvation by faith alone) I am of course referring to the Apolstolic faiths of Christianity namely the Roman Catholic Church……

    I say,

    I will grant that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church does not accept Sola Fide as defined by protestants that is after all what the Reformation was about.

    However what the hierarchy of an organization believes does not necessarily reflect what the rank and file believe, just look at the percentage of Catholics who use birth control as one example.

    Most folks who claim to be Catholic almost never darken the door of a Catholic church and have little or no understanding of the official doctrines of the organization. Their affiliation with Rome is purely cultural.

    Of the small percentage of self professed Catholics who take faith seriously it has been my experience that many perhaps most believe that their works have no merit when it comes to salvation but that Salvation is by Grace through faith in Christ. These folks stay Catholic because of family ties and habit and a love of liturgy among other things. I would have no problem calling them Christians and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Even the official doctrine of the Catholic church is much more complicated and nuanced than a simple rejection of faith alone. It has to do with infusion rather than imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us.

    I would expect it is the same for the other organizations you mention.

    Blanketly assuming that the beliefs of a few high ups in an organization are also held by everyone that is a member is a clear sign of prejudice.

    You would not want me to judge you based only on a oversimplified notion of what the leaders of your organization teach would you?


  4. falcon says:

    fifth mon
    Years ago I was watching Dr. Walter Martin and a Jesuit debate the idea of faith and works on the John Ankerberg Show.
    I listened to the whole thing and for the life of me I couldn’t detect a difference in their arguments. I asked a Lutheran pastor I know who, incidentally, got his Ph.D. from Notre Dame about my observations that there really didn’t seem to be a difference in what they were saying. He replied, “That’s because there isn’t a difference.” What he was saying is that they each had a perspective and a way of expressing it but at the end of the day there wasn’t anyone who would substitute their own works for the Blood of Christ.
    One time I asked my mother, who was a devoted Catholic (don’t ask what happened to me), what she would say if she were standing before Jesus and He asked, “Why should I let you into my heaven?” Without missing a beat, my mother replied, “Because of what you did for me!”
    My mother didn’t talk about her attendance at Mass and participating in the various rites and rituals/sacraments of the Catholic Church. She recognized that it’s only through faith in Jesus Christ and His viracious death on the cross that we are saved.

    If God has ordained it, Alex will come to Christ in faith.

  5. Rick B says:

    For a guy that claims the LDS church is true and so is Mormonism, You really are not doing a very good job defending your faith.

    You never addressed anything I said, I pointed out exactly how I follow your prophets, I am doing what they and the LDS scriptures say. You never touched on that, then I pointed out how Parley P. Pratt is a false prophet, even if he was not a LDS prophet, he prophesied in the Name of Jesus Christ what would happen in great detail to those who reject the BoM and what would happen to the Land in general, (that by 1888 there would not be an “unbelieving Gentile” left on the American Continent or the Book of Mormon was false. Found in his pamphlet “Mormonism Unveiled” from 1838). None of that happened and was false in saying that. Yet No LDS cares when these LDS are wrong.

    Then you point out about all these so called Christains and act as if a large number of people believe something then that equals truth. Lets see, I believe in combined Numbers, their are more Atheists, JW’s, Muslims, Buddhists, and many other religions combined that deny what LDS teach and believe. Does this mean according to your Logic, Numbers equal truth? Then if so your wrong.

    Read the Bible, roughly 6 billion people believed Noah was wrong, yet Noah and his 7 family member’s lived while everyone else Died. Mass numbers did not equal truth. What about Jesus saying, the Door to life is narrow and few find it, yet the road to destruction is wide and many go that way. You really have no clue do you? Also read your Bible, Jesus and God IE the Trinityclaim to have created Everything, and Nothing was created unless it was created by them. God did not say, I took elements that already existed and just re-arranged them.

    Then Read Job, Job suffered a lot, many lots of complaints if you want to call it that, But it was his three friends that were so off base in their view of God, that God dealt with them.

    Job 42:7 And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].

    Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.

    God makes it clear, You cannot simply believe what ever you want to believe what you want about Him, and get it wrong about Him, and He will simply excuse it.

    Job 40:15 says

    Job 40:15 “Look now at the behemoth, [fn] which I made [along] with you; He eats grass like an ox.

    God Told Job he Created the behemoth along with Job, He did not re-arrange elements to make him.

    Then you told Falcon the evidence is over whelming for mormonism, what a joke. For years me and Falcon have been asking for this evidence, and no Mormon has brought it yet.

    I spent two weeks in Israel and will be going back for another two weeks this November. I have never been to any BoM lands, and dont claim you think Mexico or places like that might be BoM lands, Bring forth the hard evidence. Bring forth Books, Coins, People, Archaeology that proves they are BoM lands.

    What about JS writing the BoM in reformed Egyptian? First off that language does not exist. Then why is it Jesus and the apostles quote all through out the OT going back to the garden of Eden, and the tower of babel, and all places in between, yet they never mention BoM people, places or prophets? Yet we read in the BoM, they mention people from the Bible.

    I believe it was our poster Shem who said, they did not know each other and did not live together and thats why. Yet as I pointed out, the BoM mentions people being at the tower of babel, So BoM people should have meet and know of the Bible prophets.

    Plus the BoM mentions people from the BoM living in Jerusalem around 600 years BC, So again, By logic and reason, they should have meet. Then how you you take reformed Egyptian and only gets Verses from the KJ Bible to translate in perfect KJ English? and only for Bible verses nothing else?

    Then if you remove every word for word Bible verse from the BoM, since we already have them in the Bible, we dont need them again in the BoM, then with whats left of the BoM, can you show me how I can be saved, and Know Jesus Better than what the Bible teaches? No you cannot.

    Lastly, I have an older BoM and it says the blacks will have their curse lifted and they will become white. Yet newer Versions claim they will be pure. The word white was changed to say Pure because it was a failed Prophecy that never happened. Then our poster Shem claims White was changed to pure as a language update.

    I think you guys need to find better excuses because white and pure are not even close to saying them same thing. Then if it was just an updating we still have a problem, I also have a newer copy of the BoM, and in one place it says, White, and another place it says pure, so you mean only part of the BoM language was updated? You guys are the ones with serious issues of not being honest in what you believe.

  6. grindael says:

    Now dispute that with facts if you can.

    You have presented no facts to dispute Alex. None at all. Please provide direct quotes for all the things you say, otherwise we must assume you are making it all up. We have lots of experience with that FACT.

  7. Rick B says:

    LDS like Alex do this all the time as you have seen. And when I said to him he provided no exidence, he told me, it’s all out their and I can simply Google it. I find it funny that it is my job to look up the “Facts” That claim exist, instead of them just providing them. Also If we a Believers told the LDS, your Church or your prophets have said or done…

    They have and do ask for evidence, but if we did as they do and say, Google it, it is out their, then they would cry and say we are lying. Funny how they can do and say things, but if we do and say the same things, then they cry about it.

  8. falcon says:

    I don’t go to “Mormon” websites. I stay right here and God brings us Mormons to testify to regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mormons who are pre-ordained for this site show up here. This site gets hundreds of hits per day and most of those who come don’t post. They are led here so that they might hear the Word of God and in hearing come to faith in Christ.
    Now the Spirit of God drew you here so that you might know Him and in knowing Him receive the gift of eternal life that He is offering you.
    Most of our current posters are former Mormons who have accept this gift that God is offering and in so doing have secured their place in His Kingdom.
    I was serious when I told you that you can’t resist the Spirit of God forever. One way or another, He will have you. The means to the end depends on your level of stubbornness and the hardness of your heart.
    Can you resist coming to this website or any other that is ministering to Mormons? No! It’s the means by which God will lead you to surrender to His call.
    I’ve testified regarding how God did this in my life. Here’s a very short version with the pertinent information. I have my name, phone number and address to two Mormon missionaries. They never contacted me. Shortly there after I came to Christ. I wondered aloud to a Christian friend who had been witnessing to me for nearly a year as to why the MM never contacted me. She said, “There’s no way that was going to happen. I had every Christian in town praying for you.”
    You see, the Lord God used that Christian to form a hedge of protection around me through prayer. God pursued me and put a spiritual hunger within me that only He could satisfy.
    As I’ve told you, God has led you here at this time for His redeeming purpose.
    It’s just the way it works! It’s not up to you. You have no part in it.

  9. fifth monarchy man says:


    you said,

    One time I asked my mother, who was a devoted Catholic (don’t ask what happened to me), what she would say if she were standing before Jesus and He asked, “Why should I let you into my heaven?” Without missing a beat, my mother replied, “Because of what you did for me!”

    I say,

    In my opinion your mom’s answer answer is what separates a Christian from a wanna be. A wanna be no matter what their affiliation will always try and add his own works to God’s gift in order to exalt himself.

    Jesus illustrates the clear dividing line between those who hold to salvation by Grace alone and wannabes in Luke chapter 18.


    “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
    (Luke 18:10-14)

    end quote:

    nuff said,


  10. falcon says:

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the purpose of this website to bring questioning Mormons to salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
    Yes, I thought so.
    So why do Mormons show up here to debate us? If they were Christians, as they claim to be, it would seem that they would be in support of the mission of MRM and this blog.
    Isn’t the most important thing to come to that place in our spiritual life where we recognize that we are spiritually lost, repent, and receive the gift of eternal life that the Father is offering us through His Son Jesus Christ?

    This gospel is well established, easy to understand and is made clear in the NT.

    Andy Watson used to make a habit of going to LDS wards, sitting in on their basic, I’ll call it a seekers’ class, and when appropriate introduce himself and ask a question. On one such occasion Andy, after introducing himself said, “I am a Christian, born again by the Spirit of God. What can the Mormon church do for me?” The answer from the gentleman leading the class? “Nothing!” He said the Mormon church had “nothing” to offer Andy. I guess this guy had figured it out that the LDS church couldn’t offer Andy anything of spiritual value since he was a Christian.

    So why do Mormons get so bent out of shape when someone leaves the LDS church, gets born again, and begins to attend a NT church? I would think they would rejoice that this person has found God and new life in Christ.

    I know in the past it’s been almost impossible for someone leaving the LDS church, to get their name off the rolls of the organization. There have been some that have had to threatened legal action just to get their request processed. Even those who request “no contact” continue to be hounded by representatives of the LDS organization.

    The problem is that Mormonism is a cult type organization and like the “Hotel California” in the song by the Eagles, “You can check out but you can never leave.” At least they don’t want you to even if you’re spiritually in great shape having come to Christ in faith.

  11. Rick B says:

    To add to what you said, I will say this.
    When the two Mormon Missionarys came by my house, They invited me to a church service, I never asked them if I could go, or what might be going on that day at the church.

    Then when they came to my house, after talking for a while, they said to me, Rick, you are harassing us. I said, excuse me? You feel I am harassing you? I reminded them that is was them that came to my house, passed through my neighborhood, and that it was Joseph smith that was the first one to claim God that I follow spoke to him and said, My church is wrong. Then I pointed out how their Scripture, The BoM claims their are only two churchs, and I said, if I am not part of your church, then I am of the devils church.

    Yet why is it I cannot defend what I believe from what your church, prophet and scripture teaches about me? They said I can defend myself, but still I am harassing them, what a joke. If you LDS dont like what we say on this blog, then be open and honest about what you teach and believe and maybe we would not need these blogs. Were only using your words and sharing what you wont.

  12. Alex says:

    Gosh, where do I start?

    I have presented some very salient facts in this thread.

    Fact 1. Not every Christian is a Evangelical Protestant. To me this is a self-eveident fact, indeed I provided a rough break down by percentages of the various major divisions and denominations amongst Christianity. This can be easily verified through a Google search or just look it up on Wikipedia – easy peasy – or is that too much effort for you?

    Fact 2. Apostolic Christian churches (i.e. the Roman Catholic, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic, Mid-Eastern etc.) and indeed many Protestant Churches reject Sola Fide (salvation by faith alone) as a valid doctrine. These Churches teach that faith combined with salvatory rites such as repentance and baptism and following Christ in one’s life are necessary, in fact essential for salvation. A mere profession of faith is simply insufficient. This is a long established Christian doctrine.

    Fact 3. These Apostolic churches constitute the vast majority of Christendom.

    Given the foregoing 3 Facts, I assert that Sola Fide is not a Christian doctrine on the basis that its rejected by the vast majority of Christians. I will grant that one can call Sola Fide a Evangelical Protestant doctrine. The distinction is significant.

  13. fifth monarchy man says:

    Alex said,

    These Churches teach that faith combined with salvatory rites such as repentance and baptism and following Christ in one’s life are necessary, in fact essential for salvation. A mere profession of faith is simply insufficient. This is a long established Christian doctrine.

    I say:

    Please provide evidence for this.

    Here is a statement of the actual doctrine. If I understand it correctly I would disagree with this statement. But it is a far cry from the Mormon position of salvation based on faith plus works

    From here


    The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).

    It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.

    Thus assisted, the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

    This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.

    end quote;


  14. Alex says:


    Your meanderings are hard to follow.

    You claim to be a Mormon. This is of course a false statement. One becomes a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints by following the prescribe course of repenting of one’s sins, being baptized by one holding the proper authority, and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on a hands. You have not followed this course of action hence you are not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. Thus your claim to be a Mormon is a brazen lie and you know it.

    Incidentally all Apostolic Christian Churches (i.e. Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic etc.) follow a similar course of action for an adult to become a recognized member of their faith.

    You raise the old canard concerning “reformed Egyptian” stating: “that language does not exist. ”
    First: “reformed” as translated from the BOM is a descriptive adjective and not a proper noun. The adjective “reformed” means changed, altered, or modified.
    Second: languages change with time. Take the English language for example. The English you speak today differs significantly from the 17th century English of the King James Bible or ther 16th century English of William Shakespeare, or ther 12th century English of Chaucer or the 9th century Anglo-Saxon of Beowulf. In short English has become changed, altered, and modified over the centuries. Thus the language you speak today could be referred to as “reformed” English.

    This is a simple enough concept to comprehend. Why is it such a stumbling block for you?

  15. fifth monarchy man says:


    the take home point of the Catholic doctrine I posted is


    The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.

    end quote:

    If I understand Catholic teaching correctly works are themselves caused by God’s Grace The sinner does not add his works to faith to produce salvation.

    As a Protestant I would disagree that justification consists in both remission of sins and sanctification but I would wholeheartedly agree that sanctification is all the inevitable result of God’s grace

    None of this is remotely similar to what Mormonism teaches. There is no claim that salvation is by grace “after I have done all I can do”

    do you see the difference??


  16. Alex says:


    The purpose of sites suchs as “Mormon Coffe” and MRM and their ilk is to tear down the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. There is little here on Mormon Coffee that is virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy. Furthermore, there is certainly nothing here that will bring one to Jesus Christ.

    I am here to point out the various lies, slanders, deceits, and deliberate misrepresentations of LDS doctrine and its leaders that are being spewed by hard core Anti’s such as yourself.

    I am cofident that one day you will come unto the authentic Jesus Christ – but not in this life.

  17. Alex says:

    Fifth Monarchy Man,

    Do you believe as the Holy Bible and Roman Catholic Church teach that baptism is essential for salvation?

    Most Christians believe that baptism – being the narrow gate through which one must pass to enter into the Kingdom of God – is essential for salvation. In contrast Evangelicals do not believe in the necessity of baptism nor do they believe in its salvatory efficacy. Hence their doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

  18. fifth monarchy man says:

    Alex says,

    Do you believe as the Holy Bible and Roman Catholic Church teach that baptism is essential for salvation?

    I say,

    actually The Catholic church does not teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

    from here:


    This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal


    end quote:

    I disagree with Catholic baptismal doctrine as I do many other aspects of there teaching but my differences with them are nothing compared to the differences I have with the organization you belong to.


  19. MaM says:

    Okay, I have to jump in here on this one.

    Alex, the LDS church most definitely keeps records of activity on its members. They have callings for this exact purpose. The majority of missionaries in the area I’m in, spend a lot of their time knocking on “less active” and “inactive” members’ doors… including mine. Not only do they know who is active and who isn’t, they know the entire family’s names, even if some of them have never joined. It happened to me personally… I’ve never been a member (my husband was). The missionary president showed up and called me by my name before I ever introduced myself. And then told me he “missed me”. It was creepy. An LDS friend of mine said that her ward has about 500 listed members, yet only about 200 show up on a “good day” (her words). For years, the Mormons loved to brag that they were members of “the fastest growing church in the world”, because that’s what they were told. So yes. They keep a very close watch on activity levels and are in the middle of some serious damage control operations. And from what I hear, even after your name is removed, they still show up asking you why you left in hopes of bringing you back.

    Just had to get that off my chest.

    As for the “we want to be Christians too!” thing? I asked my husband recently why such smart, highly educated people think Mormonism is true and keep at it, even the ones that know the dirty facts. His answer was that they think that even if it turns out that the LDS Church is wrong, they think they’re still safe because they technically believe in Christ. So basically, they think they’ll get grouped in with the rest of us who call ourselves Christians (but not Mormons) by default. However, if they leave the Church, they’re going to outer darkness (according to their Church, of course, not Jesus). They want to have the best of both worlds (I know there’s a joke there somewhere).

    But I also agree that they’re doing some serious work trying to mainstream themselves and appear less “weird”.

  20. MaM says:

    Oh, and let’s not forget the Christmas baskets. Those are handed out to the inactive members as well. We got one. lol. One of the added perks, I guess. Unfortunately, the cookies were a little stale. Had they been fresher, we might’ve gone back. 😉

  21. grindael says:

    This can be easily verified through a Google search or just look it up on Wikipedia – easy peasy – or is that too much effort for you?

    Is it too much effort for you? Why should I do your work? List the percentages here, with verifiable links. But remember verifying statistics doesn’t make your argument valid. And anyone can call themselves a Christian. There is a good reason why Jesus said “few there be that find it”. “Majority rules” is a juvenile argument. And sola fide is not just a profession of faith. There is more to it than that. But I’m sure you know this, are you just being coy?

    The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us … Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31) Martin Luther, “The Smalcald Articles,” in Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions. Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2005, 289, Part two, Article 1.

    Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

    Um, Was Martin Luther (Lutherans) Evangelical Christian? I think you forgot him. You also forgot the Methodists (John Wesley affirmed that he believed in faith alone – which is being saved by GRACE). And a lot of others. Since you missed some, to make your point valid, you need to list all of the individual Churches and give links to where they either affirm or deny that they believe this. I don’t think you really know the facts.

    If you don’t do this, your argument is just you blowing smoke. You see, you still haven’t presented any PROOF to back up your assertion. AGAIN. This is par for the course with Mormons here.

  22. Alex says:

    Contrary to your statement, the LDS Church doers not keep statistics on the activity levels of its memebrs. Notwithstanding that fact, at the ward level local leaders have some idea of who regularly attends church services, who occasionally attends, which members seldom attend and who hasn’t attended in quite some time. There is no compiling of statistics of member activity levels.

    The question is what constitutes being an “active” member as compared to a “less active” or “inactive” member. How are these terms defined?

    In the LDS Church an “active” member would generally be considered as someone who attends almost every Sunday and holds a calling. In other churches being “active” can mean a level of attendance that that entails attending mass a couple of times a year – ie. the typical Christmas / Easter Christian.

    I know many Catholics who have not attended Mass for years but still consider themselves to be good Catholics.

    If you would check a reputable compiler of religious statistics such as Pew Forum the activity rates of Latterday Saints is much higher than that of most other Christian denominations. This fact puts the lie to the notion that the LDS Church is “dying on the vine” as falsely claimed by many Anti’s..

  23. Alex says:

    Simply Wiki: “List of Christian denominations by number of members – Wikipedia …”
    Or is that too much of a strain for you?

    This Wiki entry provides a good overall statistical compilation of all Christian denominations great and small. There are many other sources as well. I included the various Protestant churches in my brief summation so there is no need to be so rude.

    The question as to whether or not reformers such as Martin Luther were believers in Sola Fide is an interesting one and depends on how strict a formulation of the concept of salvation by faith alone is used. While Martin Luther was a major proponent of Sola Fide he still maintained the necessity of the priesthood and such priesthood ordinances as baptism. A strict Sola Fide adherent (such as most Evagelicals) rejects the notion of a clerical priesthood and the notion that ordinances such as baptism are necessary for salvation. Within Protestant churches there is a wide range of dissenting opinion on this particular theological matter.

  24. grindael says:

    Simply Wiki: “List of Christian denominations by number of members – Wikipedia …” Or is that too much of a strain for you?

    Not the point. (Did you really think this is about statistics of who call themselves Christian?) That diversion won’t work. Point is which of those denominations believe in Sola Fide. You MUST list them all (for or against) with links to PROVE your point. And even that won’t prove it is heresy. Your arbitrary “majority rules” straw man is just that, a straw man. If you can’t produce, you are blowing smoke, like I said you were. Third time now, no proof. I’m not surprised. And it’s obvious you do not understand the principle of Sola Fide. But that’s something I’ll be happy to discuss AFTER you give the FACTS to prove your first point. I’ll be waiting.

  25. Old man says:


    You said to RickB
    “In short English has become changed, altered, and modified over the centuries. Thus the language you speak today could be referred to as “reformed” English.”

    Yes it could be but it ISN’T & by using the same reasoning the modern Egyptian language could be called ‘reformed’ but it ISN’T so Rick is absolutely right when he says there is no such language. What you said to him is, like most Mormon explanations, doublespeak, so stop clutching at straws in a futile attempt to maintain an untenable position.

    You said to Falcon
    “There is little here on Mormon Coffee that is virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy. Furthermore, there is certainly nothing here that will bring one to Jesus Christ.”…….I am here to point out the various lies, slanders, deceits, and deliberate misrepresentations of LDS doctrine and its leaders that are being spewed by hard core Anti’s such as yourself.

    What you say is, quite frankly, a lie. The facts bear testimony to that as several have been brought to Christ by what they have read in here. Why not ask cattyjane & others who were deceived by Mormonism if what you say is true?
    I find it amusing that you should accuse us of lies slander & deception when an enormous amount of what is written in here happen to be direct quotes from your leaders. Perhaps you should be directing your accusations at them

    You said to Fifth Monarchy Man
    “Most Christians believe that baptism – being the narrow gate through which one must pass to enter into the Kingdom of God – is essential for salvation. In contrast Evangelicals do not believe in the necessity of baptism nor do they believe in its salvatory efficacy. Hence their doctrine of salvation by faith alone.”

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Not only do you lack knowledge you deliberately misrepresent what Christians believe. I’m simply a Christian, & to be honest I’m not even sure what an Evangelical is, but I can still say you are talking rubbish. NO true Christian believes that Baptism saves, NOT ONE. Show us from Scripture where baptism is ‘the narrow gate’ show us your statistical evidence for what “most Christians” believe.

  26. falcon says:


    I know it’s very uncomfortable for you to read the truth about Mormonism and process it through your emotions and altered thinking process. It’s part of the Mormon persecution complex which Mormons hold on to very tight. It’s a feeling state that in some weird way justifies Mormonism, in their minds.

    Anyway, concerning Catholic baptism. The Church teaches that there are three forms of baptism; water, blood, or desire. Water is the normal process, blood as in being a martyr-a believer who was not water baptized but gave his life for Christ and finally someone who came to faith in Christ, had the desire to be baptized but died prior to the act. It’s all about faith in the Savior.
    I have a couple of Catholic catechisms here and I’m always impressed with the doctrine as it was presented to me as a school kid. Something very enlightening for you would be to take a look at the language in the First Communion ritual or Confirmation. What I remember clearly were the words; “When you were infants your god parents made certain declarations for you. Now it’s time for you to make them for yourself.” Then we went through those declarations like, “Do you reject Satan and all his works?” We hit all of the points of someone coming to Christ in faith.
    My daughter was confirmed in the Lutheran Church, at my wife’s insistence and my tacit approval. I was very impressed with the process, both the two year instruction and the actual ritual. It was all about faith in Christ.
    As an former Catholic who spent years in Catholic school, I sort of have a handle on the Catholic belief system and it’s teachings
    You say you are a Mormon but you don’t appear to know much about Mormonism. This is indicative of someone who has a deep emotional buy-in to the sect but very little real knowledge. Actually this isn’t unusual at all. Just ask those former Mormons who post here and they’ll testify to why they left Mormonism. Believe me, it had nothing to do with the little Mormon mantra about having fallen into sin or being offended. These former Mormons will testify that they discovered that the LDS church had lied, covered-up and obfuscated the facts surrounding Mormonism. That’s part of the reason why Mormons are streaming out of the LDS church today. People don’t like lies, cover-ups and mis-representation of the facts.

    But none-the-less, you will continue coming here and flail away like a drowning man and eventually reach out to Christ in faith and He will save you from being lost for eternity. It’s just what happens. You are moving through a stage in the eventually surrender to God.
    The blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, is our only hope for salvation. Having good intentions but not knowing Jesus personally isn’t saving faith. The Jesus I’m talking about isn’t one of many gods and the off spring of one of the Mormon gods and one of his plural wives living on or near the planet Kolob. The Mormon Jesus isn’t any better or different than you in essence. He just received a higher calling in the Mormon system.
    You’ll come to know the real Jesus, the real Christ. Just keep coming here and God will open your heart to understanding the Gospel. I will remember you in prayer this morning when I’m in church services.

  27. Rick B says:

    Alex said

    I am here to point out the various lies, slanders, deceits, and deliberate misrepresentations of LDS doctrine and its leaders that are being spewed by hard core Anti’s such as yourself.

    So I guess that when I posted quotes from the seer that have not ever happened since I am still alive and that is from an LDS member, I guess that was a lie, But you never touched on why he claimed it would happen and failed, but you cannot seem to explain it away.

    I pointed out how Your prophet, president, and scriptures, Claim if JS is a fraud he needs to be exposed, and how if you guys are wrong we need to show you, and how the D and C says to meet each other in public and private and talk about these things. Yet despite showing you that, you still say this,

    I am here to point out the various lies, slanders, deceits, and deliberate misrepresentations of LDS doctrine and its leaders that are being spewed by hard core Anti’s such as yourself.

    I guess your wrong since I am doing as your leaders have said to. Then The black people still are not white, I happen to have a black friend that would love to turn white, But pure and white are not the same thing as I said, so tell me where I am wrong if you really feel I am?

    Then on the issue of me being a mormon, I have said many times over the years on this blog, I pose a “what if” question. What if I say I am a mormon, I do as LDS do, simply throw out words and never go deep into the definition as you guys do. You guys say Jesus, I say Jesus, You guys say Grace alone, I say grace alone, You guys claim to believe the Bible so do I. You read the BoM, So Do I.

    You guys never knock on a door and say, hello, I am from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I believe Jesus and lucifer are brother, I believe in Grace alone, PLUS WORKS after all I can do, I believe the Bible is the word of God, IN SO FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.

    You guys never say all that. So since people dont know, then you lead them to believe something that is not true, since if you gave all the info, it would lead them to believe something different.

    Every Mormon on this blog I have meet so far has admitted, We do believe in different things and not the same gospel. Yet they can claim to be christian, and I cannot claim to be Mormon. Why is that if we supposedly believe the same thing? How are you the one not being dishonest?

    Then when you claim we need Priesthood Authority, I say, What a joke. JS said, No man can see God and live with out the priesthood. Yet when he supposedly had this first vision, He claimed to have seen God while not having the priesthood. So by his own words he exposed himself a fraud.

    Then show me on place in the Bible where Jesus ever said, You need to have priesthood authority to go out and speak and share Jesus. Or show me one apostle or disciple in the Bible where Jesus said that to them, or where they say it to each other. It is not in the Bible anyplace. The Mormon Priesthood Authority is a joke.

  28. Rick B says:

    Welcome back OLDMAN, You know I love having you around. If your wondering, I have not written you lately, I have a hotmail account and slowly over time they have been changing it to something called “outlook”. I know people, my dad is one of them who have switched to gmail since out look has caused so many issues. For me one issue is, I have lost contacts of people, sadly your is one of them.

  29. falcon says:

    So Alex,
    The reason I know you will come to faith in Christ is because you have great zeal but you lack knowledge.
    What I mean by that is that you are all fired-up about Mormonism, Joseph Smith, the BoM the “one true church”, and you have learned well what the LDS church has taught you. You’re pretty typical of what is observed in naive true believing Mormons.
    You probably haven’t read grindael’s testimony, but I think it would be worth you’re time. He was a lot like you in some respects; great zeal, little real knowledge of Mormonism. But he had the opportunity to do some first hand research and suddenly he found that what he had been taught, didn’t match reality.
    Mormons tell themselves all sorts of stories regarding those who leave. You know the drill. They fell into sin, were offended by someone and the all time great fall back position, they were deceived by Satan.
    Some have told us that the so called Mormon apologetic websites such as FAIR and FARMS did more to contribute to their leaving Mormonism than anything they could find on the so called “anti” websites. Why is that? Because the Mormon sites give such implausible explanations that it sounds like more of the same.
    Finally, what many report is that the NT was the greatest contributor to them leaving the LDS church. That’s because when they read it straight-up, it destroys Mormonism.
    Anyway, here’s a link to former Mormon Micah Wilder’s testimony. It’s one of my favorites because it captures perfectly, the coming to Christ of a very earnest young man.
    Ten minutes well spent. Your testimony is strong enough to handle it, right?

  30. fifth monarchy man says:

    Alex said,

    While Martin Luther was a major proponent of Sola Fide he still maintained the necessity of the priesthood and such priesthood ordinances as baptism.

    I say,

    So you think Catholics don’t believe in Salvation by faith alone because you feel they think baptism is necessary (except I showed you that they don’t believe that )……….

    and at the same time

    You think Martin Luther did believe in Salvation by faith alone even though you believe he thought baptism was necessary. ………..

    So believing baptism is necessary means you don’t believe in salvation by faith alone except when it means you do.

    It’s quite a web of denial you have got going there Alex.

    Lets face it the beliefs of the various churches surrounding baptism are complex nuanced and often contradict each other but no Christian believes anything remotely similar to what the LDS organization teaches concerning baptism.


  31. grindael says:

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Not only do you lack knowledge you deliberately misrepresent what Christians believe. I’m simply a Christian, & to be honest I’m not even sure what an Evangelical is, but I can still say you are talking rubbish. NO true Christian believes that Baptism saves, NOT ONE. Show us from Scripture where baptism is ‘the narrow gate’ show us your statistical evidence for what “most Christians” believe.

    Old Man,

    This is a common tactic for the Mormon. Set up a false dichotomy, a straw man that they make up which they convey as being the belief of Christians. On the other hand, we give proof here. We quote their leaders and the Bible extensively. Most of the time what we get from the Mormon is generalized statements that they pull out of thin air that are not the beliefs of Christians or what their leaders teach, that “sound” like Christian belief. It goes something like this.

    Christian: Your leader said this, which is quoted, and affirmed by their scriptures, which are quoted.
    Mormon: We don’t believe that. Our leaders didn’t say that, or mean that. (Generalized statement why that might include words like “works” or “grace”, etc. but don’t mean what the Bible says they mean via Mormon doctrine)
    Christian: Here are more quotes from others that show that they don’t have that meaning, but mean something totally different.
    Mormon: Accuses Christian of “twisting” or “taking out of context” or that we are only quoting “opinion” or “folklore”.
    Christian: More direct quotes.
    Mormon: More Generalized statements or finally a Bible quote that doesn’t apply to the topic at hand.
    Christian: Asks Mormon to quote their authorities or give other evidence.
    Mormon: Make up more “generalized” statements they cannot back up with evidence.
    Christian: Asks for direct evidence to back up claims.
    Mormon: Will not believe the evidence and leaves conversation.

  32. Alex says:

    FM Man, Grindael et al,

    Not every Chrstian is an Protestant Evangelical

    The problem here rests with your lack of knowledge and understanding regarding the doctrines, tenets and practices of other Christian churches (let alone the doctrines of the LDS Church). Not every Christian is an Evangelical Protestant nor do they adhere to Evangelical doctrinal tenets. Is that not obvious?

    Simply put the Roman Catholic Church and all other apostolic churches do not and never have taught that salvation can be acheived by a mere profession of faith. While Sola Fide is a keystone doctrine of Evangelical churches it is rejected by the Roman Catholic Church as a Protestant heresy.
    Is that not obvious?

    The Roman Catholic Church and all other apostolic churches teach that salvation is contingent upon faith, the administering of sacred ordinances, and following Christ. This is exactly what the LDS Church teaches.

    The Roman Catholic Church and all other apostolic churches teach that baptism for the remission of sins is an essential priesthood ordinance. Baptism is a commandment of Christ. This is exactly what the LDS Church teaches.

    While Sola Fide may be an Evangelical Protestant doctrine it is not a Christian doctrine. Is that not obvious?

  33. grindael says:

    And by the way, you demonstrate how truly little you know about our doctrine when you claim we believe grace only applies to the resurrection. I could not imagine a more incorrect claim.

    Here we go again. The Mormon who doesn’t know what his own church teaches. Here is the definition of Atonement from

    As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

    Atonement = all people will be resurrected.
    OBEY HIS GOSPEL (works) = gift of eternal life with God.

    This can’t be more clear. There is a qualifier in the statement above. That qualifier means that if you don’t OBEY the Mormon regulations (works) you cannot get the “gift” (how can it be a gift if you must work for it?) of “eternal life” with God. If you don’t believe me that you must obey forced regulations, here again is Packer:

    “The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy.” (“The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises”, Ensign, May 1996, emphasis mine).

    Your whole “salvation” could be taken away if you do not obey this forced (compelled means forced) REGULATION. Even if you don’t accept the Mormon “gospel” you will still get resurrected (because of Christ’s atonement). But you must OBEY this regulation (and all the many other ones) to have eternal life with God. If you don’t, you can’t go to the temple and receive your endowment, the priesthood, or anything else. This is salvation by force. If you agree to it, and then decide not to keep it, your ordinances are invalidated. You knowingly sinned against “the priesthood”. (the MEN who run the church). This was ANATHEMA to Jesus and His apostles. We live by the Spirit of the Law, not the letter of the law. Forcing people to obey regulations destroys the whole meaning of Christ’s atonement.

    Once again, FOF. I’ve shown PROOF. You’ve proved NOTHING by your GENERALIZED comment. Again.

  34. Alex says:


    I find your comments amusing. You pass yourself off as an expert on the subject on Mormonism and yet you boast of never having read the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine of Covenants (the foundational texts of Mormonism).

    That is like someone passing themselves off as an expert on Islam and never actually taking the time to Read the Quran. The height of hubris.

  35. grindael says:

    FM Man, Grindael et al,

    No, it’s not obvious. You still have not proved your point. You have no evidence to back up your claims. Until then, you can post your opinion until your fingers bleed, but it won’t make a difference. This is the FOURTH TIME you have shown no proof. And your Catholic argument is non-sequitur:

    “CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema. ”

    Canon XII. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).(Council of Trent)

    This is EXACTLY what Christians teach. We do not follow regulations. We follow the Spirit and being Justified by Faith in Christ, then our lives reflect the guidance of the Holy Spirit in everything we do, which is the will of God.

    You don’t know what you are talking about. Try again.

  36. Alex says:


    Are you asking for proof of basic Roman Catholic doctrines???

    Are you suggesting that all Christians are Evangelical protestants???

    Just how obtuse are you???

  37. grindael says:

    Are you asking for proof of basic Roman Catholic doctrines???

    Yes. PROVE that Catholics teach that we are not saved by Faith alone in Jesus Christ. Prove that they say we are saved by works apart from faith. You don’t understand Sola fide. Not at all. You are making up a false dichotomy of what YOU believe Sola Fide is. Did some Christians pervert that doctrine. Sure. Men sin. BUT, We believe it as it was taught in the Bible. So do Catholics (see my post above). But you still have not proved your point, nor listed any proof at all from all the churches in the world. Until you do, you are only spouting opinion, and now this is the FIFTH TIME you have done so. You have nothing to back up what you say. I, on the other hand, have shown that you are wrong. In fact, this Catholic says so too:

    Before the joint commission met, Cardinal Ratzinger and Lutheran Bishop Eduard Lohse (head of the Lutheran church in Germany) issued a letter expressing the purpose of the document, stating:

    “[O]ur common witness is counteracted by judgments passed by one church on the other during the sixteenth century, judgments which found their way into the Confession of the Lutheran and Reformed churches and into the doctrinal decisions of the Council of Trent. According to the general conviction, these so-called condemnations no longer apply to our partner today. But this must not remain a merely private persuasion. It must be established in binding form.”

    I say this as a preface to noting that the commission concluded that canon 9 of Trent’s Decree on Justification is not applicable to modern Protestants (or at least those who say saving faith is Galatians 5 faith). This is important because canon 9 is the one dealing with the “faith alone” formula (and the one R.C. Sproul is continually hopping up and down about). It states:

    “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.”

    The reason this is not applicable to modern Protestants is that Protestants (at least the good ones) do not hold the view being condemned in this canon.

    Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term “faith” in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says. Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2). We might rephrase the canon:

    “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.”

    And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.

    So Trent does not condemn the (better) Protestant understanding of faith alone. In fact, the canon allows the formula to be used so long as it is not used so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required. The canon only condemns “sola fide” if it is used “so as to understand that nothing else [besides intellectual assent] is required” to attain justification. Thus Trent is only condemning one interpretation of the sola fide formula and not the formula itself.

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    That “better” understanding is what EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS teach and believe. (Show me ONE EC that says we don’t have to Love God and our Neighbor). We are led by the Spirit to do “good works”, which is love God and your neighbor. NOT MORMON REGULATIONS. Your argument is a straw man. Mormon fantasy. Here is what the Catholics say about the Mormons: If we use your criteria, Alex, your whole church is based on heretical teachings. Do you really want to use this argument?

  38. Rick B says:

    Your a fraud and a joke, You pass yourself off a mormon, but in reality your not, You cannot defend your beliefs and answer any questions. Your a troll who just wants to say something, while having nothing to say.

    I love people like you, you give us Christians Hope that Mormons will see the truth of there false religion. Lurkers come here looking for truth, people like you come here, claim we dont know what were talking about and all we do is make false statements about your church. We quote your leaders saying things like, Those who reject Mormonism and the BoM will die and go to hell. Yet you have no reply to these things.

    The problem is, you cannot explain why he said it and it failed to come to pass, but on the other hand, if you try and answer, It will be tough to explain as well as all the other issues I posted. So you just ignore them and try saying I am at fault, because you claim in a round about way, Your to ignorant to understand what I am saying. So keep up the good work. This verse sums you up.

    Proverbs 18:2 fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

  39. Alex says:

    Rick Beaudin,

    You stated: ““while I claim to be a mormon, I am also thinking of leaving the mormon church”
    These are you own words Rick. Rick, you are not now nor have you ever been a Mormon or a member of the LDS Church. You have been caught in your own lies.

    To use your own words: you are a fraud and a joke. Truly you are the fool here.

  40. Rick B says:

    As I have said before and you just ignore what I say, Using your logic, If you believe a different gospel and use the Christian terms and words, then I can also use the terms and claim I am a mormon.

    Why is it you cannot give me an answer as to why you can lie and claim to believe what I believe and say your a christian, but I cannot in turn say I am a mormon? You either are not a christian, and I am not a Mormon, or you are a Christian and I am a mormon. And you can quote me saying, I said I am a mormon and am leaving the church,

    But every Christian here, Falcon, Grindael, Aron, Mike R, MaM, and other who have been here for years have seen me say many times over, If Mormons can call them selves Christians and claim they believe what we believe, then I can do the same. So in reality, I did not lie, you just either missed what I said in the past from not being here, or you knew I said it and like with your teachings, Forgetting I ever said that.

    And Even if I did lie about myself, How can that be an excuse to not answer my questions and you said we lie about your church and your here to set us straight, but yet I point out what your leaders have said, and shown how they are the frauds, and you say nothing, proving I am right and they are frauds. Nice try Alex, but your nothing but a troll.

  41. fifth monarchy man says:

    Alex says,

    Simply put the Roman Catholic Church and all other apostolic churches do not and never have taught that salvation can be acheived by a mere profession of faith.

    I say,

    No Christian believes that salvation can be achieved by a “mere profession of faith” I belong to probably the most strident of Protestant churches and I don’t believe that nor have I ever heard a leader of my denomination ever teach such a thing.

    It’s you who are grossly misinformed about what we Christians believe

    All Christians believe that we are saved by Grace through faith and we also believe that saving faith produces fruits in our lives. We sometimes disagree about the exact relationship between saving faith and it’s fruits but none of us no matter what we call ourselves think you can achieve salvation by a “mere profession of faith” and none of us no matter what organization we belong to believe that our works are meritorious as far as salvation goes.

    Christians are united on this, whether they be Baptists or Coptics or Pentecostals or Roman Catholics. It is your organization that is the odd one out here.

    Now do I believe that some churches are inconsistent in their doctrine to the point that they compromise the Gospel, Yes I do but only cults deny the Gospel out right by teaching that grace is only added “after we have done all we can do”.

    You say,

    While Sola Fide is a keystone doctrine of Evangelical churches it is rejected by the Roman Catholic Church as a Protestant heresy.
    Is that not obvious?

    I say,

    What is obvious is that you are wrongly assuming that a rejection of the Protestant understanding of doctrine means that these groups don’t believe that salvation is by Grace through faith.

    Christians don’t reject salvation by grace through faith this includes the Christians that belong to the Catholic Church. Only cults do this .


  42. Mike R says:

    Alex said he believes that the purpose of Mormon Coffee and MRM and their ilk is to tear down
    the Mormon church , and that there is nothing here that will bring a person to Jesus . Then he
    resorts to using the term “anti’s” against those here . What’s next ? We’ve all heard this rhetoric
    before from some Mormons on this blog . It’s important to note that Mormon authorities
    have been “anti” themselves , calling other churches and those in them some unsavory things
    ever since they arrived on the scene 183 years ago . In recent years this antagonistic attitude
    has wained some , at least publically, because of a concerted effort to convince the public that
    Mormon should rightly be called ” christian “. But it seems there is more to this whole issue
    than Mormons merely wanting to be called christians . According to Mormon leaders their
    church is THE only true church today , and that Mormons are THE true christians . All other
    “christians” may be nice people but their baptisms have offended God , their belief that God the
    Father is not an exalted man , and other beliefs they hold , are egregious enough that there is no
    salvation in embracing such . The Mormon church is the way , truth, and the life — salvation is
    contingent upon joining it and submitting it’s hierarchy .
    So the whole issue is more than Mormon leaders wanting themselves and their followers to be
    called christian , but rather THE only true christians and church of Jesus ; and this claim is
    propped up by their doctrine of a complete/universal apostasy of the Christian religion , that
    supposedly Christianity died off shortly after Jesus’ apostles had all passed away , 1700 years
    later it was back — in the form of Mormonism ; and now all other churches are part of what constitutes the church of the Devil .
    Mormon leaders want more than just to be considered christian ( according to a common
    Dictionary they can be viewed as “christian” ) . This is the point with this whole issue , in my
    opinion . Mormons like Alex need to use terms like ” anti’s ” and even to try and slide the
    conversation over to other churches , rather than simply address the claims made by his leaders .

  43. falcon says:


    How do you know I’ve said I’ve never read the BoM or the D&C?
    You’ve been here how long? Maybe a week or so. I’ve made no comments regarding my reading of the BoM or the D&C. So why would you claim something I haven’t commented on since you’ve joined this Coffee Club? I find that very curious.

    Besides how would anyone know that the BoM and the D&C are false having not read them?

    It’s very easy. I know who your god is Alex and I know who the spirit of Mormonism is. All someone has to do is tell me who their god is and I will tell you if their “scripture” and what they teach is true. Besides here’s the game Mormons play. Ready?

    Mormon: You must read the BoM to really know and understand Mormonism.
    Christian: I read the BoM and I judge it to be false.
    Mormon: You need to pray first asking if it is true.
    Christian: I did pray and determined that the BoM is false.
    Mormon: You have to read it with a sincere and humble heart.
    Christian: I did and have determine that it is false.
    Mormon: You need to read it again and again until you believe it’s true.

    So the only answer that is acceptable to a Mormon is that the BoM is true. I won’t play your silly little Mormon games Alex.
    You are a fraud and so is the god and religion you represent.

    However I did pray for you this morning and I had a picture come to my mind, I won’t claim it a vision, but I saw it none-the-less. It was God both breaking and melting your heart. I also saw the Holy Spirit descending on you. Knowing that the Bible states that it’s God’s will that none perish and all come to Him in faith, I agreed with God that you would come to acknowledge Him as God and receive the gift He is offering you through His Son Jesus Christ.
    Now having agreed with God that this should be so, hence it has been done in heaven. One way or another you will come to the Living and True God Alex. (Isaiah 43:10)
    So you can spit and sputter and try to argue about Catholics and whatever other random thought enters your mind but the final outcome is decided. You will come to the Lord, believe and be saved.

  44. falcon says:

    So what do Mormons do when they don’t “feel” it any more?
    That’s a huge problem for people whose religious convictions are based on emotions masquerading as some form of spiritual message.
    There’s just not enough emotions to conjure up when someone realizes that Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet, that the BoM isn’t a true historical account/scripture, that the LDS church isn’t the “one true church” and that the current prophet is just some old guy in a dark suit who worked his way up through the Mormon pyramid and now gets to sit in the big chair in a tall building in Salt Lake City, Utah.

    Cults work through the emotions of people. Whether it’s creating some sort of environmental ambiance or the imposition of fear of what happens to someone who leaves the cult, after a while, it’s just not going to work to hold people in the “church”.
    Emotions are transitory and often have no basis in reality. They come about, quite often, by our dominant thoughts. Emotions can do a pretty good job of disguising reality.

    So it is with Mormonism. Good feelings reflect the truth. Bad feelings reflect deception.
    I don’t know about you, but I’d rather build my faith on a more solid foundation. Faith in Christ is the foundation that has little or nothing to do with feelings. Jesus is God regardless of how someone feels about it. His vicarious death on the cross for us is true whether it makes us feel one way or another.
    Jesus said to, “Know the truth and the truth will set you free.”
    Mormons need to start trusting in Jesus rather than their feelings, the religious system of Mormonism and all the false prophets its produced.
    Then they will be free indeed!

  45. falcon says:

    So “Alex”,

    Would you like to tell us who you really are? We’ve had Mormon posters go away or get kicked off this site before and try to enter under a new name.

    Rick rightly called you a fraud first. He generally can smell something when it’s not right.

    Are you ready to give it up?

  46. MJP says:


    How many times have you been told on this thread that Christians agree on what matters?

    Perhaps you should look into it some more…

  47. Alex says:


    You state: “Christians agree on what matters.

    Tha is the most laughable, contempible, ignorant statement I have seen on this blog site for a long time – and believe me there have been many.

    Do you really have no knowledge of Christian history? Do you really not know that Christians have been slaughtering other Christians with gruesome glee for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years over the smallest doctrinal differences? Have you not heard of ther Protestant Reformation which precipitated the Thirty Year War and numerous other wars and religious conflicts in which hundreds of thousands of Christians were murdered by other Christians for merely having a slight difference of opinion on some theoligical matter.

    That is simply stunning.

    MJP, to use your own words: “Perhaps you should look into it some more…”

    Seriously, read a book on the history of Christianity .

  48. Alex says:


    You keep whining about the necessity of proving the obvious.

    I know that you don’t bother to carefully read my posts but do you even read your own???

    You cite as a source the 9th council of Trent and quote the following:

    “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.”

    Grindael, do you actually understand what you have quoted? Do you not understand the meaning of the word “anathema”? Do you not understand that the Roman Catholic Church (as you have so amply demonstrated here) condemns as “anthema” the doctrine of justification by faith alone (Sola Fide). Do you not understand that the Roman Catholic Church has condemned the doctrine of Sola Fide as a Protestant heresy for over 5oo years? Do you not have any understanding or knowledge of the basic causes of the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter Reformation? Do you not have a basic understanding and knowledge of the history of Christianity and the basic doctrines of various Christian churches? I guess not.

    Sadly, this ignorance of other faiths and creeds is all too common amongst Evangelical Protestants.

    As I have stated before, not all Christians are Evangelical Protestants.

    Is that not obvious?

    You whine about proving the obvious. What more proof do you need. Read your own words.

  49. Rick B says:

    Why are you really here on this blog?
    I see you as nothing more that a troll and a wolf in sheeps clothing. You stated the reason why you are here is

    I am here to point out the various lies, slanders, deceits, and deliberate misrepresentations of LDS doctrine and its leaders that are being spewed by hard core Anti’s such as yourself.

    But yet out of all the quotes I have stated by your false prophets and presidents and scripture, You have not once said I am wrong, or they are wrong and set me straight as to how I did what you claim you are here for. So that shows you are a lair by your own words. So why not tell us the truth about who you are. Also you made it sound like you just found this site, But then you talk about things we either have not said in the time you claim to have been here, or you have read over years of this blog before posting which tells me your not who you say you are.

  50. falcon says:

    You wrote:

    “Tha is the most laughable, contempible, ignorant statement I have seen on this blog site for a long time – and believe me there have been many.”

    You’ve only been posting here for a few days, maybe a week or so, so how can you make the claim “for a long time”. A few days of the person “Alex” being here isn’t “a long time”.

    So, who are you Alex? You’re writing style and confrontational manner sound very similar to other Mormon posters who have been here in the past.

    Now to another matter that gets to the heart of who is a Christian. If we take a look at the various denominations within the Christian family, who do they say God is?
    Now compare that to who Mormons say God is. The Mormon god is one of millions perhaps billions of gods who were once men on some planet and who, by following a prescribed religious system, morphed into gods. These “gods” have their own planetary systems to rule along with their plural wives. They procreate spirit children who then, at some point, get humanoid bodies and populate the “gods'” planets. It is there that the whole process repeats itself.
    Now where does this notion of the Mormon men-to-gods come from? Who is the “God” of the BoM?
    The fact is, Mormonism is a mess.
    If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461), then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as:

    Church organization
    Plurality of Gods
    Plurality of wives doctrine
    Word of Wisdom
    God is an exalted man
    Celestial marriage
    Men may become Gods
    Three degrees of glory
    Baptism for the dead
    Eternal progression
    The Aaronic Priesthood
    Temple works of washings, anointing, endowments, sealing.

    There is only one God
    Mosiah 15:1,5; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21.
    Mormonism teaches there are many gods.
    Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5.

    The Trinity is one God
    Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21.
    The Trinity is three separate gods.
    James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 1985, p. 35.

    God is unchanging
    Mormon 9:9,19; Moroni 8:18; Alma 41:8; 3 Nephi 24:6.
    God is increasing in knowledge.
    Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120.

    God is spirit
    Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11.
    God has the form of a man.
    Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3.

    Eternal hell
    Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23. Hell is not eternal.
    James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55.

    Polygamy condemned
    Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7.
    Polygamy was taught and practiced.
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266.

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