Mormon doctrines are “just the same”?

Previously Aaron wrote about the current trend in Mormonism wherein Mormons tell Christians that Mormon beliefs are just the same as theirs – Mormon doctrines are the same as [fill-in-the-Christian-denomination] doctrines. I want to expand on a bit of what Aaron wrote, and add to it.

Camp MeetingMormonism claims that in 1820 all Christian denominations were fighting against each other, not only for converts, but for their unique versions of spiritual truth. According to Joseph Smith,

“…so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others. In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together?” (Joseph Smith—History 1:8-10)

If every Christian denomination advocates for disparate doctrines, as Joseph Smith said, how can Mormon doctrines be the same as all of them?

When Joseph Smith inquired of God to know which church was right, he claims he was told that the creeds and doctrines of these churches were all wrong (Joseph Smith—History 1:19) – if Mormonism’s doctrines are just the same as these other churches, then reason dictates that Mormonism’s doctrines must also be all wrong – right?

At General Conference in April 2006 President James Faust quoted Apostle Dallin Oaks,

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has many beliefs in common with other Christian churches. But we have differences, and those differences explain why we send missionaries to other Christians” (“The Restoration of All Things,” Ensign, May 2006, 61)

How can these beliefs be different but the same?

Larry Dahl, then Associate Dean of Religious Education at BYU explained,

“Truly the bright light of the Restoration, bursting forth from the time of the Prophet Joseph Smith, makes clear the fundamental, eternal principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That light, revealed through the Prophet, replaced doctrinal shadows and clouds of error the world had inherited as a result of the great Apostasy nearly 2,000 years ago.” (Ensign, “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee,” Ensign, April 1997, 12)

Apostle Boyd K. Packer expressed a similar idea during the commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the priesthood restoration in 2004. As reported by Church News,

“The [Mormon] Church is not merely an adjustment or correction of what had become Christianity following the Apostasy, President Packer said. “It is a replacement, a restoration of organization and authority to what had been when Christ established it.” (Church News, 5/22/04, 4)

If the “bright light of the Restoration” replaced the “doctrinal shadows and clouds of error” that non-Mormons believe — if Mormonism is a replacement of traditional Christianity — how can Mormon beliefs be the same as those in apostate Christianity?

In fact, in 2007 President Faust told a gathering of mission presidents and their wives,

“Our message is distinctly different because it contains the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (Church News, 6/30/07, 5)

President Gordon B. Hinckley also explained that there are “many things of a doctrinal nature that distinguish this Church from all others” (Church News, 8/6/05, 2). Indeed, while encouraging Mormons to maintain their self-identification as Christians, Mr. Hinckley clarified,

“Now we may not be Christian by the standards of the world. In fact, we are not Christians by the standard under which they are Christian. If we were, there would have been no need for a restoration of the gospel. The restoration of the gospel occurred to correct all the mistakes of the past.” (Church News, 5/23/98, 5)

Members of the Mormon Church may be more comfortable telling Christians that Mormon beliefs are the same as their beliefs, but to say that is to be disloyal to the consistent teachings of Mormon leaders from Joseph Smith to current Mormon apostles, and to disdain the whole reason for The Restoration. The teachings of Mormonism are necessarily different from those of the allegedly apostate Christian world. Mormons, Christians invite you to gird up your loins and respectfully engage in the debate. Why? Because as Aaron said, “Truth matters. Life matters. Jesus matters.”

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Friendship, Interaction, and Evangelism, LDS Church, Misconceptions, Mormon Culture, Truth, Honesty, Prayer, and Inquiry and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

202 Responses to Mormon doctrines are “just the same”?

  1. johnsepistle says:

    We’ve gotten rather far afield here, and several of the comments directed at me aren’t in need of any reply (seeing as how they neglect to interact substantively with actual things I’ve said), but I do think that a few points can be raised yet to some of FoF’s recent statements.

    FoF is contending that, for the sake of effective communication, all words should be used in the sense that prevails in “society”. This leaves a great many questions unanswered. What group constitutes the relevant “society”? Why should we presuppose that only one primary sense of any given term is utilized by this “society”? Why should we assume that communication cannot be furthered by making our usage more precise than but still related to the (array of) sense(s) introduced by “society”? Why define “society” synchronically rather than diachronically? What are the ramifications of hitching definitions so tightly to the whims of demographic and cultural shifts? These are all vital questions for FoF to answer before anyone is obliged to accept FoF’s argument for the illegitimacy of critics’ refusal to cede the term ‘Christian’ to Latter-day Saints.

    FoF said at one point that, for “society”, ‘Mormon’ refers exclusively to members of the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while ‘Christian’ refers broadly to any parties who claim some allegiance with Jesus Christ. Yet FoF’s defense of these premises are slim. For instance – since FoF cited a dictionary previously – I note that several dictionaries I’ve consulted have given, as a major definition of the term ‘Mormon’, “a member of any of several religious bodies tracing their origin to Joseph Smith in 1830 and accepting the Book of Mormon as divine revelation”, or something comparable thereto. Under this definition, Warren Jeffs qualifies unambiguously as a Mormon – and yet, if this were to become a commonplace, that would be distasteful to many Latter-day Saints I know. (And imagine the uproar if the FLDS started a large-scale missionary program whereby FLDS missionaries introduced themselves as Mormons!) But FoF’s presentation of what constitutes proper usage of terms, gives us no reason to not refer to Warren Jeffs as a Mormon.

    (Or, if some technical argument can be constructed against this, consider the following hypothetical scenario: all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are deported for five generations; meanwhile, the FLDS grow exponentially in their absence, and early on develop the habit of calling themselves ‘Mormons’; then the formerly-mainstream LDS return to the country – but by this time, all other living Americans associate the term ‘Mormon’ with the FLDS. Would it be inappropriate for Latter-day Saints to claim the label ‘Mormon’, and appropriate then to call the FLDS ‘Mormon’? Is that all it takes in order to alter the ‘rightful’ referents of such a term?)

    While FoF rightly sees the communication perils created by decontextualized flat denials of all use of ‘Christian’-vocabulary to Latter-day Saints, FoF neglects to see that the converse position comes with serious communication perils as well. Among the usages of the term ‘Christian’ are some that refer to affiliation with an expression of the catholic Church (‘catholic’ in its original sense), as well as some that refer to an assessment of the person’s spiritual state as evaluated within the context of normative Christian teachings on regeneration.

    The problem with the ‘dictionary definition’ of the word ‘Christian’ is that it fails to adequately address these crucial senses, which have a much better claim to legitimacy in terms of the history of the term’s use. To unqualifiedly refer to Latter-day Saints in general as ‘Christian’ is, for this reason, highly problematic. (In terms of the latter sense, to unqualifiedly refer to professing Methodists, Lutherans, or Evangelicals in general as ‘Christian’ is to an extent problematic!) In order for the dialogue over the term’s use to be productive, Latter-day Saints will need to gain a much stronger sympathetic appreciation for the serious dynamics underlying resistance in the broader Christian world to Latter-day Saints’ self-designation as ‘Christian’.

  2. Mike R says:

    It’s apparent that Fof F read more into this thread topic than it actually stated . This
    issue of running into LDS or reading in newspaper interviews where they say things
    that strongly implies they are really no difference than other “christians ” statements
    like ” we believe like you do ” or ” we also follow Jesus ” or statements that are similar
    to these , this is not a mirage . I have experienced such and I don’t think it is an
    anomaly , rather it seems to be all to frequent . Are these LDS being dishonest ? I don’t
    think most are . Trouble is, the general public is not getting the full story about how
    huge of a difference Mormon doctrine is concerning God , Jesus , etc and they deserve
    to know in a consistent manner . Ministries like MRM are here to provide , ” the rest
    of the story ” .
    Now let’s look at some statements by Fof F :
    He said to Falcon : ” you and many other critics here are hyper-sensitive and hyper
    focused on things that most others would not care about .”

    Well , when it comes to identifying false gospels , the better the counterfeit the more
    “picky” one has to be in order to expose it as such .

    He said , ” I think it is very dishonest for our critics to be campaigning against us and
    declaring we are not christians ….non-LDS christians do not determine who is a
    christian. ”

    For the record if Mormons say that the common dictionary definition of a “christian ” is
    enough for them to be called christian then I have little problem with that reasoning .
    But how far does this go ? I have to think the bar should be somewhat higher in order
    to identify a true follower of Jesus . Concerning the charge of being dishonest for
    campaigning against Mormons and declaring they are not christian , let’s look at
    what Mormon leaders have been campaigning since 1830 for everyone to know about
    non-LDS christians : they constitute the church of the Devil in these days ; they follow
    fake Christ’s , spread a perverted gospel , and are blasphemous if they baptize /marry
    others . This is because only Mormon “christians” are the true christians in the only
    true church on earth . What’s more, to refuse to give allegiance to the modern day
    prophets of Mormonism as being sent by God is to be considered a anti-christ !
    So it seems rather strange to complain that non-LDS christians should not be
    determining who is a christian, yet Mormon christians (leaders) are the ones that are
    determining who are the actual true christians , members of the only true church .

    He said, ” Anti- ministries disseminate an aggressive message that we are not
    christians. ”

    When it comes to being an ” anti” , Mormon leaders since 1830 have had few equals .
    Yet for many Mormons it’s easier to act like a victim , persecuted etc and resort to
    using this term towards those who are persistent in warning them about the danger
    of following their false prophets —Matt 24:11.

    christian churches .

  3. falcon says:

    Shem,
    Just about what I figured; a Mormon would answer with a lot of heavy duty personal opinion and the shading of the truth.
    Let’s look at a few of these.
    grindael blew apart your riff on the Mormon heavenly mother so that moves back into the “true” column as I had expressed it.
    “Magic Rock”. I noticed that you didn’t contend with the fact that Smith put his magic rock into his hat and shoving his face into the hat received the translation of the Reformed Egyptian written on gold tablets which weren’t even present during the process.
    Yes it was a “magic” rock so you stating that it wasn’t is your opinion. The fact is that Smith found his magic rock while digging a well. He and his immediate and extended families were into “folk magic”. He claimed he could see into the ground with his magic rock and find buried treasure. This is called “scrying” and is forbidden by the Bible. So your attempt to find some sort of Biblical support for the practice fails. So that also moves into the “true” column.
    Now as to Jesus. It seems that according to your claim that the Mormon Jesus is “eternal” you have created a whole category of special Mormon gods. In Mormon lore there are millions perhaps billions of gods, all with wives, all procreating spirit children who will occupy the worlds which these gods rule. Some how, in your scenario, Jesus got to skip this step. Did the Mormon heavenly father get to skip this step?
    I think you’re practicing your own form of Mormonism. Consider:

    “The New Testament teaches that Jesus, God the Son, is eternal and has no beginning. However, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a procreated being, the literal offspring of God the Father and one of His heavenly wives. According to Mormon theology, God the Father, Elohim, dwells on a planet with His many spirit wives producing numerous spirit children who await to inhabit physical bodies so that they too may one day ascend to godhood as their parents did. Jesus is believed to be the firstborn spirit child of Elohim. The Doctrine and Covenants, one of the four sacred books of Mormonism states, “Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father.”{1} The Gospel Principles, which is the manual of the Mormon Church, states, “The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ.”{2} James Talmage, one of the early apostles of the church wrote, “[A]mong the spirit-children of Elohim, the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors.”{3}
    1. Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23.
    2. Gospel Principles, 11.
    3. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 425.

    So Shem it’s just more Mormon deception on your part.

    The Bible teaches that Jesus is eternal and not procreated. It’s all a Mormon game Shem because while Mormons teach that Jesus is “eternal”, the word “eternal” is redefined so what Mormons mean is that Jesus existed as a spirit child prior to His incarnation. Being an offspring of Elohim means He was created at some point in time.
    So then what I said was “true” and moves into my column.

  4. falcon says:

    The Mormon Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost.
    That’s back in the true column regarding what I said. Way too much nitpicking on your part to make it false as to what I stated.
    Let me just say this on the topic of the Mormon Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. An excellent treatment of this topic which can be found in “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin pp. 166-211.

    “Mormons are, to say the least, divided in their theology on the issue, although Talmage bravely attempts to synthesize the mass of conflicting information and ‘revelations’ found within the writings of Smith and Young and the early Mormon writers. Try as he will, however, Talmage cannot explain the Mormon confusion on the subject……”
    “Mormonism then, for all its complexities and want of conformity to the revelation of God’s Word, indeed contradicts the Word of God repeatedly, teaching in place of the God of pure spiritual substance (John 4:24), a flesh and-bone deity and a pantheon of gods in infinite stages of progression. For Mormons, God is restricted to a narrow, rationalistic and materialistic mold.”

    OK now as to deification of faithful Mormons after death. What you wrote is just more Mormon spin and the splitting of hairs. If someone becomes a “god” then it follows that they have been deified.
    D&C 132:20: “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power and the angels are subject to them.”
    “In the student manual on the Pearl of Great Price, a manual in current use, we find this quote: “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.” (p. 4) Note especially the use of the capital G – “evolving into a God”.

    Shem,
    I went back and counted and I had 7 which were true or essentially true since several you listed as “mis-represented” but not as false.
    I think I nailed it pretty well and with my follow-up here my batting average is excellent. The only one I’ll have to check on is whether or not a deceased person receiving Mormon baptism can get on the god-track in the next life.
    All-in-all, I get five out of five stars which will go on my chart on my refrigerator.

  5. falcon says:

    So does this sound like “believe the same as you”?

    Orson Pratt said:
    “We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our mind, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and how the first Father was begotten.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, Washington D.C., 1854, p. 132)
    Jim Spencer writes, “The process by which God has spirits is a little foggy, although most Mormon theologians teach that Elohim has several spirit wives by whom he conceives his spirit offspring. He experienced mortality on another planet, where he received a body, and eventually, through the process called ‘eternal progression,’ has come to be our God. (McConkie, pp. 238-239; Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.
    “That means that throughout the universe men are becoming gods, receiving dominion over their own planets and conceiving spirit children in heaven so they can send them to earth to be born in mortality and repeat the process………”

    Does this sound even remotely like orthodox Biblical Christianity? So, any Mormon that would even begin to claim some sort of “believe the same as you” parity with Christianity is delusional.
    This idea that Jesus some how skipped the process and is “eternal” is just more Mormon attempts to play the “believe the same as you” game. There is a systematic process in Mormonism by which someone becomes a god after being a man. No Mormon god is “eternal” including the Mormon Jesus or heavenly father.
    It’s just more evidence that Mormons should apply that old adage, “If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging”.

  6. BryanRP says:

    This strikes a chord with me. First thing I was thinking was exactly pointed out. Why the restoration then? There has been a breakdown in communication between the upper echelon and as Bruce R. McDonkey used to put it, the “rank and file”. The leadership in SLC is working so hard to appear Christian and therefore attract new members, while the members bristle at the thought of being just like the others. This will be interesting, as it has been so far. I speak from experience being an exmormon.

  7. Old man says:

    Falcon quoted D&C 132:20 in one of his excellent posts & although I’ve read it (the quote not the post) many times in the past the last sentence jumped out at me in a way it’s never done before.

    “Then shall they be gods, because they have all power and the angels are subject to them.”

    I’ve never really taken much notice of it before but now I can’t help but wonder which Angels are being talked about here. Who are they, what are they? Where did they come from? Did the Mormon god create them when he became a god or have they always existed, even before he became a god? If they were created by the ‘first god’ (a logical impossibility) shouldn’t they be subject to that first god? Is it possible that they flit from one eternity to another serving whichever god calls on their services?

    Some may think I’m being flippant so let me assure them I am not. These are questions that have come to me as a direct result of reading contradictory & confusing Mormon ‘scripture’ & I believe it’s incumbent upon the church to answer those questions, hopefully before my brain goes into meltdown

  8. johnnyboy says:

    @old man

    It all depends upon the Mormon definition of “angels”. What Mormons say are angels could be any number of things and who their servitude lies with also falls under different circumstances.

    What’s sad is it’s so convoluted that is reeks of typical Mormon doctrine. Endless re-defining of terms and multiple/various meanings.

    I mean you’ve got angles, ministering angels, angels who were cast out, transfigured beings, resurrected beings, beings who haven’t tasted death, angels of light who are false, angels of light who are true, and that’s apart from beings such as cherubim and other angels who “aren’t in the image of god” per-se. Then there’s the beings who inherit the different levels of glory and who are subject to servitude but won’t ever be granted king or god like status.

    I know you’re specifically wondering on servitude and who has dominion over whom. Good luck trying to figure that one out within the convoluted maze of Mormonism.

  9. falcon says:

    Over the course of my career, I worked with children of various disabilities and one of the things I would teach them would be “same and different”. There were attributes that made things the same or different. I think our Mormon posters need some instruction on these basic concepts.

    If Alex, FOF or Shem were approached by a gay male and began a discussion, would they say, “We’re the same.” or “I’m the same as you.” ? If they did say, “We’re the same” what would the gay male conclude? Yes, he would conclude that our Mormon boys are gay and perhaps they would be interested in a relationship that included male sex.
    If our Mormon travelers showed up at an AA meeting, went up to the podium and said, “You and I are the same.” The folks would believe they are alcoholics.

    So this Christian “same game” that Mormons want to play is to get them into the club by any way possible.

    On another topic:
    If the Mormon Jesus is “eternal” than the Mormon Jesus preceded the Mormon Heavenly Father because the Mormon HF was a man on another planet and how could the HF have anything to do with Jesus.

  10. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I think that this behavior by many Mormons to say things that strongly imply
    that they are the same to a large extent as the other christian churches has been
    productive —unfortunately . The public hears this , asks questions, then they are
    put in contact with the Mormon missionaries who work their salesmanship on them .
    I read somewhere that a Mormon official stated that he likes christian missionary
    work to precede the Mormons entering an area ( usually 3rd world countries ) this
    makes it a lot easier for the Mormon missionaries to be successful etc .

    one comment on Jesus being Eternal . In Mormon doctrine Jesus as Jehovah , the Lord
    God Almighty that we meet in the Bible was not always such a unique majestic Being .
    He started out in heaven like millions of other boy spirits . He did’nt even know how to
    create anything or was even able to say things like ” I create new heavens and a new
    earth” [ Isa.65:17] , He had to go to school in heaven and learn how to become smart
    and strong enough to become Jehovah , i.e. He was not eternal AS Jehovah God .
    Thankfully, in the Bible, our Creator, Savior , Lord, introduces Himself as someone far
    different. People are safer ground to stick with the Bible and not be detoured by those
    prophets who arise in these latter days and claim to have new info about God that
    when examined only validates Paul’s warning in 2 Cor 11:4 to beware of those who
    would come teaching ” another Jesus/Jehovah ” , a counterfeit .

  11. Brewed says:

    Kate, Can you post a link to the video you mention in your comment, about the early church. I would love to watch it. That and some of the books you have read. I’d like to start learning more about the early church.

  12. grindael says:

    The FLDS are Mormons in every sense of the word. They are just not “Corporation Mormons”. They practice what they believe in on earth. As a matter of fact, at a Swedish Fireside (hosted by Marlin Jensen & Richard Turley & recently leaked by John Dehlin – and then taken down because of Church pressure – to answer some issues that they had in 2010), Richard Turley said (in answer to questions about it – polygamy),

    Q: But do we believe in it?
    RT: Do we believe in the 132nd section? Yes, we do.
    Q: So we believe in polygamy.
    RT: We don’t practice polygamy on earth.
    Q: Yes we do, we go to the temple and seal them?
    RT: But you know what I mean.
    Q: No.
    RT: One man, one wife at a time on earth.
    Q: Yeah, but if it was legal today, would we have two wives? Could I take another one?
    RT: It would not change from the current position until the prophet said so. And as I
    said, I can’t predict the future.
    Q: But you must answer, I think you can answer at least, do we believe in polygamy? We don’t practice it, but we believe in it because we are sealing more wives to one man.
    RT: We believe in the sealing of people [1:13:43-1:13:46]
    The reason I hesitate to say we believe in polygamy is if I say that then people will say,
    well then you have more than one wife, right? You don’t, right? Nobody else here does,
    either, I believe. That’s why I say it the way I say it, OK?
    Q: Is that your technical way? [1:14:00-1:14-04]
    RT: No, nobody’s telling me anything.
    Q: Do we believe in polygamy?
    RT: We do believe in polygamy; we don’t practice polygamy. That’s what I’m trying to say.

  13. grindael says:

    Who are they, what are they? Where did they come from? Did the Mormon god create them when he became a god or have they always existed, even before he became a god?

    Brigham Young taught,

    “Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through…They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods, even the sons of God. Human beings that pertain to this world, who do not magnify or are not capable of magnifying their high calling in the Priesthood and receive crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives, will also, when they again receive their bodies, become angels and will receive a glory” (Journal of Discourses, 9:102).

    They will get a glorified body, but then are at the beck and call of the married gods, who because they are married get to be gods. According to D&C 132 they are the slaves of those who have a “better resurrection” or higher glory. Smith said,

    15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

    16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, [in other words slaves] to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

    17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

    You have to be married so you can be a Mormon god. This is so that when you get your own planet, you can have spirit babies by your many wives and people them with your spirit children. Any Mormon who says this is not Mormon Doctrine is not telling the truth. Brigham Young also taught that Mormon “apostates” would become the devils of those worlds, until they degenerate so far that they devolve back into “intelligences” and are then recycled as a spirit baby of some future Mormon god. Since devils are needed in the Mormon plan of salvation, this was a logical choice, according to Young. There would always be Mormon Apostates to make devils out of! Ready made Satans! This was Mormon doctrine to Brigham Young, but wasn’t to Joseph F. Smith. Such is the consistency of Mormon “prophets”, who change their minds about the validity of each “prophets” “revelations” constantly, and explain it all away by saying that they finally received more “light and knowledge” that wasn’t available when the original statement, revelation, policy, doctrine, regulation, was first implemented. God reveals “folklore” and “speculation” to them all the time, it seems.

  14. Kate says:

    Brewed,
    Here’s a link to the video. I watched through it again and the place in the mountains is truly amazing.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6754652n

    As far as my study of early Christianity, I Google A LOT! I guess I should be saving websites where I find information. I just haven’t done that. I have downloaded a few Early Christianity and Orthodox Christian books on my Kindle but haven’t gotten very far with them, I have been reading websites instead. I find the Orthodox Christian faith so interesting. They have been here since the beginning. I feel they are the most unchanged since the start of Christianity. I have also been reading the writings of the early church fathers from a website that I do have bookmarked.

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/early-church-fathers/

    Anyway, I hope that helps. Just Google early Christianity, there’s a ton of information out there. Maybe someone here could recommend some good books.

  15. Tom says:

    grindael, you’re spot on.
    “Such is the consistency of Mormon “prophets”, who change their minds about the validity of each “prophets” “revelations” constantly, and explain it all away by saying that they finally received more “light and knowledge” that wasn’t available when the original statement, revelation, policy, doctrine, regulation, was first implemented. God reveals “folklore” and “speculation” to them all the time, it seems.”

    It is stunning how Mormons quite consistently in talks, Sunday school lessons, and priesthood and Relief Society discussions basically cluck their tongues at those poor Christians who are not consistent and can’t get things together theologically. As I’ve read Christian-real-deal theologians, and not pop theologians, I’m very impressed at the depth and beauty of their thinking and writing. Mormon theology is so scattered, especially when viewed over the LDS church’s history. And currently, LDS theology is virtually nonexistent. Listen to conference. Not much meat or theology there, just a bunch of nice stories and pleasantries. It is shocking.

    If the Catholic Church, and by extension the rest of Christianity, can be called the Whore of all the Earth, the Mormon Church can be called the Bonehead of all the Earth. That is strong, I know, but there really is nothing there theologically.

  16. grindael says:

    Tom,

    I’m working on a post about this subject (for this blog) and should have it done shortly. Stay tuned.

  17. Tom says:

    falcon
    A personal communication here:

    A while back you said this:”I’m the one who writes often about Mormon “spiritual” experiences. At one time we had a former Mormon post here by the name of fmelo. He also had been tuned into spiritual experiences as a Mormon and even that wasn’t enough to hold him in the pack. I had long discussions via e mail with him because the spiritual experience angle is one that interests me and that I’ve studied for a long time.”

    shoot me an email. I’d like to discuss this further with you. [email protected]

    Tom

  18. falcon says:

    grindael,
    Thank you very much for your posts above. They help clear my mind. Every once in a while I think perhaps I’m going crazy when I interact with these Mormons and they speak a language that is either Reformed Egyptian or something that comes from the planet Kolob. What they say, most often, is either a total denial of the reality of what Mormonism has taught in the past or now, or such a convoluted version that it bears no resemblance to the actual facts. I believe it gives rise to what inhabits Mormonism which is a spirit of confusion and delusion.
    It’s great that we have so many former Mormons posting here since these Mormons who show-up here don’t get any mileage out of their LDS tap dance.
    They believe in polygamy but don’t practice it???? BTW, what’s the purpose of polygamy in the Mormon second level plan of salvation? I think we know but Mormons won’t admit to it!

    Tom,
    You may get the falcon award for label of the day; “Bonehead of the Earth”. I wish I had thought of that. In looking over the chapter in “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin, I think that he nails the confusion within Mormonism perfectly.
    Let’s face it. These Mormons, past and present, aren’t scholars in any sense of the word. What’s happened is that they got the burning in the bosom and now they have to figure out a way to get it to confirm something that is totally irrational, illogical and a theological chameleon.
    Mormons dig this because it makes them think there getting the latest news release from Kolob but all they’re getting is a little more confusion to add to an already confused batch of Mormon stew.
    You’re right. When’s the last time a Mormon authority said anything of significance. The whole idea is to keep the coffers stuffed with cash.

  19. MaM says:

    I know I’m late to the party, but here’s my 2 cents, if it’s even worth that much. ha.

    Because my husband *was* Mormon, I have a LOT of LDS friends. We live in an area where Mormons are definitely the minority, so their “we’re just like you” claim is more prevalent here than I think in other states such as Utah. They look with disdain on what they call “Utah Mormons”, and they prefer to be grouped in under the term “Christian”. They tend to correct anyone that refers to Christians separate from Mormons, saying “Mormons are Christians too”. So they really push the sameness around here. Missionaries tell current mainstream Christians that they know we already have Christ; they just want to help us “experience the added blessings” that the LDS religion can offer. It’s a very deceitful approach.

    So with this “sameness” being emphasized, it was a bit of a head scratcher when these same people freaked out on my husband for marrying outside the LDS Church. Phone calls, emails, etc were constantly coming after he proposed, telling him he was an idiot and “what was he thinking??”. One person went so far as to say that our child has special needs because my husband married a nonmember (he no longer speaks to that particular person, lol).

    This “we believe the same things!” claim is indeed a very postmodern notion. It’s just an attempt to appear less weird and to remove any sort of stigmas people usually attach to the Mormon religion.

  20. johnnyboy says:

    My sister, who has been struggling to have children for years was told(by my mother) she was basically cursed for marrying a non member and that was why she couldn’t have children.

    Mind boggling.

  21. Kate says:

    hmmm….. I was always told that we must be special people because the Mormon god only sends his choice spirits (special needs kids) to those who are worthy to have them. I’ve also been told many, many times that our son was so valiant in the pre existence that all he needed to come here for was a body. He’s already earned the celestial kingdom and doesn’t even need to be baptized! Wow! Kinda makes you want to just have special needs and not have to jump through all of these hoops for Salvation huh? 🙂 Mormonism is whatever the person speaking it wants it to be.

    What’s interesting is that 2 people who don’t even know each other (johnyboy and MaM) tell the same story. So glad I didn’t marry a non member, who knows what could have happened! I wonder if the same holds true for members who are very inactive and want no part of Mormonism??? I did marry that 🙂 Would that be considered the same thing??

  22. grindael says:

    Quote of the Year,

    Mormonism is whatever the person speaking it wants it to be.

  23. johnnyboy says:

    Ah. The good old “special spirits” story. They fought at the front lines in the war on heaven and personally escorted Satan and his minions down to earth.

    This is why I could never participate in Mormon culture.

  24. Clyde6070 says:

    Falcon
    We can think Philosophical about what is going on and still not have the right answers. A brief thought on your other topic- the Mormon Heavenly Father is also eternal. He has just progessed further than us- also the Mormon Jesus. The process we are going through is the same process that He went through. My personal and simple Idea is that we are going through a loyalty test. Heavenly Father has sent us to a finite world without memories of our time with Him just to see what we do.

  25. falcon says:

    clyde,

    Well thank you very much for clearing all of this up.
    HF is eternal. The Mormon Jesus is eternal. However they have progressed further. They went through a process. Clyde, did that “process” begin sometime in the past? If it had a beginning, this progression, then it’s not ETERNAL!
    And clyde, where do you get these ideas regarding a personal test in a finite world. I have never read of that in the Bible nor in what the Church Fathers wrote, or in the traditions of the Christian church. It is in the BoM? I doubt it. So this is basically Mormonism according to Clyde.

    THUS, “MORMONISM IS WHATEVER THE PERSON SPEAKING WANTS IT TO BE”.

    This is too much. I’m going to go get some ice cream. If I were a drinking man, I’d pour a stiff one about now!

  26. Rick B says:

    Clyde said

    My personal and simple Idea is that we are going through a loyalty test. Heavenly Father has sent us to a finite world without memories of our time with Him just to see what we do.

    First off, you said your simple idea. Sadly that is all you have, an Idea, or an opinion. No facts, just opinions.

    Then you said

    Heavenly Father has sent us to a finite world without memories of our time with Him

    As I said before, It’s funny how we have no memorys off all these things, but we at least have the memory of being sent here. How is that possible that, that is the only thing we remember?

  27. Mike R says:

    Clyde, you’ve been misled by false prophets . The true heavenly Father is eternal ,
    there never was a time when He was’nt God . He was’nt one spirit baby among
    millions born to a higher more powerful God and wife. He never had to be taught by
    this higher God in how to be wise enough and strong enough to be able to say :
    “Let there be light” [ Gen 1:3 ] . He is eternal , this is a description of how great and
    majestic He is . Mormon prophets have apostacized from the Bible’s testimony about
    our Creator . Please do the right thing and exchange your latter days prophets for the
    true ones in the Bible . A lifetime of good works can not make up for following false
    prophets .

  28. MaM says:

    johnnyboy, it really is mind boggling. And frankly, pretty manipulative. Sorry your sister is dealing with that. Lots of prayers for her for sure. It’s not an easy road to walk.

    Kate, I’ve heard that story as well. The funny part is that when I get told that, it’s almost like they’ve forgotten I’m not a member. As if somehow I must believe that too, even though it’s so far out in left field. And I’m with grindael… you win the quote of the year award.

  29. Tom says:

    johnnyboy said:

    “My sister, who has been struggling to have children for years was told(by my mother) she was basically cursed for marrying a non member and that was why she couldn’t have children.

    Mind boggling.”

    I posted the following just today in the blog from the other day, where you made a comment about what your father-in-law “prophesied” when you and your wife told her folks about your disaffection with “the one and only true.” I thought I was reading on this current blog entry. For the rest here, your FinL wagered that you would be divorced within a year. Here’s my comment regarding that, for what it’s worth. I hope I’m not too far off thread.

    “Boy, the divorce card. Yeah, that could happen. That’s a risk we all take when we leave the church. Once the lid is off the pot and we start finding our authentic selves, there can be some unintended consequences.

    HOWEVER.

    As for me and my wife of 37 years now, after we left in 2008 our marriage is better than ever. Once again, after the lid was off the pot (read that as pressure cooker), we began to discover our most authentic selves. And guess what. Our authentic selves really were deeply in love with each other. As a direct result of the freedom in Christ we are experiencing, we are relating with each other directly for the first time in our marriage. We no longer have the Mormon construct of role expectations and such like getting in the way of our marriage.

    I had a dream as we were taking measures to resign our LDS membership. In the dream my wife and I were waking up to a sunny day–light was brilliantly streaming into the bedroom, and a gentle, cool breeze was coming through the open window. As we began stirring, I became aware that there was a horse in the bed with us. A horse!

    We both started laughing because we clearly saw that the beautiful day dawning represented our new life in Christ as a married couple, and the horse in bed with us was the LDS church.

    Anyway, you won’t be divorced in a year unless your whole marriage relationship has been a sham to begin with and was only held together by your combined relationship with the LDS church and its marital expectations. And if you begin to find that has been the case, rediscover each other and truly fall in love again. I have used the metaphor with my wife that during our LDS marriage days I felt like I was kissing her through a beach ball, and the beach ball was the church. As a Latter-day Saint couple I never felt we were all that directly connected nor fully bonded. I wonder if other ex-Mormons here have felt this. I’ve let her know it is much sweeter to “kiss” her directly for the first time in our married lives. She agrees.

    Blessings,
    Tom

    You’ll be fine regardless of what dear old Dad said.”

    And. . . your sister’s marital status has nothing to do with her fertility issues. Sheesh.

  30. johnnyboy says:

    @tom

    Thanks for relating that story. And thanks to others on here.

    Also a big thanks to grindael for posting the audio of the sweedish meeting. Just got finished reading the transcript and man was that painful!! I could have given better answers to those questions the swedes had! Hahaha. Man I really hope more people read that transcript.

    Also, regarding my marriage. I talked with my wife later after our coming out and we discussed in depth about my fathers prophesy. What he never realized is that I have had many opportunities to cheat on my wife ( I am a musician and have toured Europe and the states multiple times). I stayed faithful to my wife not because of some silly Masonic ripoff covenant, I stayed faithful because I’m not a freaking A-hole and I love my wife! Sorry to disappoint ya dad! Womp womp

  31. falcon says:

    When someone uses a term as “same as” there’s an expectation that what is being compared is actually substantial the same. “Same as” denotes and identification with based on common major attributes. The Mormon claim of “same as” is not what those hearing the claim think it is. It’s something very different. It is a Mormon con.
    If a Mormon tells a Christian that “we believe the same as you”, that’s a lie. They don’t believe the same. They believe differently. The strained list that FOF put up was a product of finding attributes way out on the margin in order to make a claim of sameness. Saying we both believe in a supreme being so therefore we are the same is playing around the edges and is meant to mislead people.
    It’s really that simple. I’m not cutting these Mormons who use a misleading like this any slack. Mormonism has a history of lying and deceit and of shading the truth and omitting pertinent information in order to get people to join their religion. Do people join the Mormon church without being told that the Mormon god, Jesus, Holy Spirit, plan of salvation, are totally different from main stream Christianity? The main goal is to get people baptized and get them baptized as soon as possible and don’t mention anything that would lead the person to reject Mormonism.
    Mormonism is a numbers game with a bottom line where by the current quarters gains better meet and exceed that of the past quarter.

  32. falcon says:

    So obviously, what Mormons mean by “eternal” is not the common understanding of the word. It’s just one more case of “same as” that just doesn’t match-up with reality. Is the Mormon god “eternal”. Consider the following:

    “The Mormon doctrine of God is not the same as the historic Christian view. It holds that God and man are essentially of the same species, and that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. He is not uniquely self-existent, transcendent, or eternal. Neither is he truly the creator of all things, for he is one among potentially billions of Gods, and does not even have the ability to create matter.”
    “Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God when he stated, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see” (Teachings, pg. 345).”

    http://www.mrm.org/god-of-mormonism

    ……..and so when Mormons say “eternal” what do they mean?

    “Mormonism teaches that somewhere in eternity past God and his wife first existed as mortals on a different earth, overseen by their Heavenly Father and Mother.”

    “This mortal couple died, received resurrected bodies, and eventually achieved godhood. They then procreated the millions of spirit children that would be sent to this earth as mortals. Thus God is part of an eternal chain of gods procreating spirit children for different worlds.”

    Oh I get it, it’s an “eternal chain”. So the Mormon god and the Mormon Jesus, it would seem, are not technically “eternal” but they are part of an “eternal chain”. Pretty slick the way Mormons do that isn’t it?

  33. johnnyboy says:

    Speaking as a recent ex Mormon, I can say that for myself while stating the claim of “we are the same” was used quite a bit with other Christians, the intent was not to deceive in any way. I believed what I said even while knowing that there were significant differences. Mormons use this broad stroke with ease and truly believe what they are painting is fine, when at best it’s extremely deceiving.

    I can see now how wrong I was in using this “tactic”, but at the time I didn’t consider it to be such.

    Just saying, y’all!

  34. Rick B says:

    I read Clydes post and as usual all I can do is shake my head.
    Clyde claims the Mormon Jesus is Eternal, Yet Mormonism teaches Jesus and lucifer are Brothers.
    Funny thing is, The Bible teaches Lucifer is a created being. So if Lucifer is created, then it stands to reason so was Lucifers brother, the Mormon jesus.

    You cannot create something and then after it is created claim, it is eternal. The Bible also teaches the Jesus of the Bible is eternal and with out a begining and He was not created.

    So this shows a major differance and this is something Mormons dont tell people up front, again it is one of those, we believe the same things (In name only). By the way, where is FoF? Seems he again goes MIA when the hard questions are asked or said.

  35. Brewed says:

    Interesting story,
    One sunday while living with my Mormon in laws a discussion came up about what we were teaching in sunday school. I teach in the preschool at my church and she taught the young women at hers. Her lesson was on the plan of salvation so I asked her very casually what her lesson entailed. She preceded to explain the plan of salvation and upon completion said something to the affect ” Pretty similar to what you believe, right?” She genuinely thought I believed something similar and that at best the differences were minuscule. It’s as if her faith is compartmentalized, the aspects that she perceived to be the same were the important ones, while the rest were minor details. She is a life long SLC Mormon who has spent the last 20 or so years in Colorado. She has many non mormon and mormon friends. I’m not really sure where the thought process comes from, maybe it is something she developed as a way to normalize her beliefs, esp amount people who don’t know much about the LDS church? I’m not sure but I can say that it provided a wonderful opportunity to witness to her and discuss the differences. It may be annoying but it does provide an opportunity to discuss the truth.

  36. Tom says:

    Mormon pre-existant spirits, including Jesus’ and Lucifer’s, and by extension, God the Father’s, come from eternal intelligences. Yes, Mormons can say Jesus is eternal. The only thing, however, is that we, too, are eternal in the same way. This, of course, is according to 18th and early 19th century teachings by prophets and apostles, all of which have never been repudiated.

    Mormons in the know realize all this. So, when they say they believe Jesus is eternal in both directions–past and future–they are leaving a whole lot of the story out, especially that we are just like Jesus in the eternity past department. We may not have been as ‘great’ as he was, but we were no less eternal (“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither can be. D&C 93:29. Also, the Book of Abraham in the PofGP is full of this stuff.).

    What a difference when one meets the self-existant, always existant Jesus who brought all things into existence by the word of his power. There is really no comparison. In Mormonism, and like the old Joan Osborn song ponders, what, indeed, if “God was one of us?
    Just a slob like one of us?” Or we, in basic essence, just like Him?

  37. MJP says:

    I’d still love to see FoF’s response to hearing an LDS directly state that LDS and Christians are essentially the same.

    So far, he’s said we different (by way of acknowledging differences) but still the same (by way of listing the ‘similarities’).

    I’m left scratching my head as to what it is he actually thinks.

  38. Clyde6070 says:

    Rick B.
    You said, As I said before, It’s funny how we have no memorys off all these things, but we at least have the memory of being sent here. How is that possible that, that is the only thing we remember? The key thing is that we don’t have a memory of being sent here. I believe we were sent here because of a strong belief in pre-mortal existence. if you have a memory of being sent here then your amazing.

  39. falcon says:

    clyde,
    It doesn’t matter if you “strongly believe” something or not. If it isn’t true, the strength of the belief is just the degree to which you believe something that is false.
    You are basing all of your “strongly” held beliefs on the basis of the witness of false prophets. It really doesn’t matter if you strongly believe in Joseph Smith. He was a false prophet regardless of how much you believe or how it makes you feel which is, of course, the basis of your testimony; feelings plus degree of those feelings equal a strong testimony.
    All of this has nothing to do with communication from God. That’s where you get tripped-up. You’ve bought into the notion that God has spoken to you because you feel a certain way about something. It doesn’t matter that you felt good when you read the BoM. It’s still a factually untrue book. The things related in it never happened nor did the story of how Joseph Smith came to have gold tablets via an angelic visitor.
    You “strongly believe” it doesn’t make it true. It just means that you strongly believe something that you desire to be true. Desire is a very strong emotion.
    I suggest that what you need to focus on is obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ. Stick with the pure milk of the Word of God and the revelation brought forth by God’s real prophets.

  40. falcon says:

    It’s a really big deal in Mormonism to have a “strong testimony”.
    A strong testimony brings status within the sect. I wonder about that. The Joseph Smith narrative and all that follows it is so unbelievable that to sign on to it a person has to suspend common sense, credulity and logic.
    That’s why there’s a continuation of the conjuring-up of feelings and making the claim that the “spirit is really strong”. I saw this in action in my recent trip to Nauvoo. Of course I didn’t feel anything because I’m aware of the manipulation of feelings techniques that these folks use. Quite honestly, I don’t even think the tour guides were aware of what they were doing. It’s apart of the Mormon culture. If the visitors can be given a strong, intense emotional experience it strengthens their “faith” and commitment to the LDS organization. And let’s face it, getting an emotional buzz is a lot of fun for those receiving it.
    So the emotions, especially strong emotions, are used to over come questions and doubts someone may have about Joseph Smith and the LDS church. The questioner has a choice; deal with the facts as they are, which is going to make them feel bad, or ignore the facts and live the fantasy which makes them feel good.
    If the person thinks that the strong positive emotions are a message from God, then the hook goes deeper into their mind. What’s that song from the Broadway hit “The Book of Mormon”? “I’m a Mormon and a Mormon just believes”.

  41. MJP says:

    Falcon, I am posting this not to call out Shem, but to demonstrate your point about the testimony and living by the spirit in Mormonism. He posted this message in a post to me on another thread, http://blog.mrm.org/2013/06/another-reason-why-the-father-son-argument-for-achieving-godhood-doesnt-work/#comments.

    Here is his comment:

    “Me, personally, I use two standards in my reasoning: First is that there are no internal contradictions. Once a doctrine or theory proves itself contradictory I will likely reject it until that contradiction can be proved false. The second is the Holy Spirit, which the Bible tells us will testify to the truth of all things. I know people love to ridicule us for saying we rely on the spirit, but I really don’t care. It is the only source (and I include all scripture in this) that is gauranteed to give us the truth. Once it has testified to us that is the end of discussion, and all we can do is seek to understand how that truth fits with all the others.
    So, this is my process of reasoning and discovery. In using it I have found nothing in the doctrine of the LDS church that is contradictory to the Bible as a whole. There are select verses that do, but then they also contradict the rest of the Bible, which is why the Bible is not, nor will it ever be, the final authority on truth.”

    He says the spirit is guaranteed to give us the truth, that the Bible is not, nor ever will be, the final authority on truth. So, their testimony, as led by the spirit, is more trustworthy that God-breathed words. It makes sense, then, that the stronger their testimony, the better they must feel.

  42. falcon says:

    MJP
    ……and of course our response is that the Spirit has born testimony to what we believe as revealed by God’s Holy Word the Bible. Not only that, God’s Holy Spirit has revealed to us that the BoM and Mormonism along with its prophets are false.
    I had one of those second blessing experiences after I got saved where unmistakeably the Holy Spirit testified to who Jesus is. I won’t go into detail but what I experienced is consistent with what is revealed in First Corinthians 12 & 14 specifically.

    You know one of the Mormon posters’ favorite charge they like to bring against me is that I’ve never read the BoM so how could I say it is false. Actually what they are really asking is, “How can I KNOW the BoM is false if I haven’t read it?”
    In a way it’s like asking, “How do I know a women is a prostitute if I haven’t had sex with her and paid her for the ahhh ‘privilege’? There are certain tip offs that a particular woman is a prostitute. So you really don’t have to have sex with her and pay her to figure it out.
    The BoM is a scriptural prostitute. I don’t have to “know” it physically and emotionally in order to determine that it’s a religious hooker.
    Mormons always want people to read the BoM in the hope that the person’s emotions will become engaged and it can be interpreted as a message from God that the BoM is true. That’s the scheme, the con, the hook.
    So how do I know that the BoM is not true? First of all I look at the god of Mormonism. The god of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible. Why would I pray to the spirit of Mormonism to guide me? That’s really what a person is doing. There is a Mormon spirit. It’s a spirit that appears as light and will give Mormons all the thrills and chills they want in order to deceive them. Jesus warned about this.
    There is a beautiful side to evil. It masks the true character and persona of the evil. The foundation of Mormonism comes right out of the occult. Joseph Smith was up to his eyeballs in folk magic and all of its practices including scrying and second sight vision.
    No I won’t read the BoM. I don’t even have an intellectual or scholarly interest in it. It supports a false religion that enslaves people. No thanks!
    There is nothing in Mormonism that is the same as orthodox Christianity.

  43. shematwater says:

    Mike
    You said “I have to think the bar should be somewhat higher in order to identify a true follower of Jesus.”
    I agree. A true follower of Christ is one who has accepted his will in all things, including the performance of required ordinances, and thus only the LDS are the true followers of Christ.

    falcon says:
    You said “your riff on the Mormon heavenly mother so that moves back into the “true” column”
    What?
    “Yes it was a “magic” rock so you stating that it wasn’t is your opinion. The fact is that Smith found his magic rock while digging a well.”
    The fact is that that is an uncorroborated story. The stones I was referring to are the Urim and Thummum, which he found with the plate in the hill
    You said “So your attempt to find some sort of Biblical support for the practice fails.”
    Read the Bible again. You will find a number of references to the Urim and Thummum, and to the fact that they were used by seers.
    You said “So that also moves into the “true” column.”
    It actually stays firmly in the misrepresented column.
    You said “It’s all a Mormon game Shem because while Mormons teach that Jesus is “eternal”, the word “eternal” is redefined so what Mormons mean is that Jesus existed as a spirit child prior to His incarnation. Being an offspring of Elohim means He was created at some point in time.”
    That is not what it means at all, which again shows you don’t know our doctrine. Tom says it well in a later post, and maybe you should actually learn what we mean by eternal.

    You said “The Mormon Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. That’s back in the true column regarding what I said. Way too much nitpicking on your part to make it false as to what I stated.”
    So, it doesn’t really matter if you use the wrong terms? Sorry, but to mislabel something is to misrepresent it.
    You said “OK now as to deification of faithful Mormons after death. What you wrote is just more Mormon spin and the splitting of hairs. If someone becomes a “god” then it follows that they have been deified.”
    Not necessarily. This is where you need the clarification, and not giving it invariably ends in misrepresentation. We will become gods, but that does not mean we will be worshiped. Thus it is misleading to say we become deities, because deities are worshiped.

    You said “I went back and counted and I had 7 which were true or essentially true since several you listed as “mis-represented” but not as false.”
    The challenge was to point out those things that you misrepresent, not just what you got wrong. That is what I did. You can’t alter your statements now just to make yourself more right than your original statements allowed. There were only three statements you made that were not either false or misrepresentations of the doctrine. I have pointed out where and how you have misrepresented the doctrine, or where you are just wrong. Deal with it. Don’t alter your position to make it sound better for you.

    Rick
    You said “As I said before, It’s funny how we have no memorys off all these things, but we at least have the memory of being sent here. How is that possible that, that is the only thing we remember?”
    Once again let me remind you that no one remembers being sent here, so please stop lying about our doctrine. We know it happened because God has told us it has. Just as we know we went through a physical gestation and birth, but we have no memory of it.
    You said “Funny thing is, The Bible teaches Lucifer is a created being.”
    Where?

    Tom
    You said “Mormon pre-existant spirits, including Jesus’ and Lucifer’s, and by extension, God the Father’s, come from eternal intelligences. Yes, Mormons can say Jesus is eternal. The only thing, however, is that we, too, are eternal in the same way.”
    This is true, but does this alter the fact that we believe Christ to be an eternal being?

    MJP
    You said “So, their testimony, as led by the spirit, is more trustworthy that God-breathed words.”
    Problem with this is that the testimony of the spirit is God-breathed words, and words that have not gone through numerous translations and interpretations.
    Question: Why did the people at Pentecost trust the testimony of being “pricked in their hearts” when they were already familiar with the scriptures and had rejected the truth based on them? Also, would say that Peter’s testimony that Jesus was “The Christ, the Son of the living God” was any less reliable because it was not based on the scriptures, but rather the fact that the Father had personally revealed it.
    I know people like to disparage the testimony of the spirit, but in doing so they deny one of the greatest concepts of the Bible itself.

  44. MJP says:

    Shem, as Falcon rightly points out, the trouble with your position on this is that the testimony you get, and the testimony I get, are very different. So, we have a problem, don’t we? We both say that the testimony is garnered from the Holy Spirit, but I don’t think a Holy being would contradict himself in this manner. Do you?

    We thus have do more than simply rely on feelings. You mention Pentecost. Keep in mind that this was a very distinct and shared experience, shared in time and place. They all saw tongues of fire on each individual, they could all understand each other. It was a very distinct experience. It is not necessarily something that has been, or ever will be repeated. It certainly was not an individual or quiet experience. It was dramatic.

    It’s quite a leap to make the conclusion you do concerning the testimony of the spirit from Pentecost. Also, bear in mind that Christ had told people that the events of Pentecost were coming– that they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Peter had knowledge of prophecies of what was to come. And don’t forget that Jesus, in his very person, had told Peter this many times before in various ways. Jesus’s admonition that this comes from God following Peter’s statement is an indication that God had opened Peter’s heart, but not that Peter had never been exposed to the idea before. There were many who saw but did not believe.

    And I think you misunderstand the disparagement of your reliance on the spirit. It is reliance on the spirit with nothing to back it up that is more the problem. We rely on the spirit, too, but come to very different conclusions.

  45. falcon says:

    Shem,
    MJP has answered you very well and I think your recent post is another personal riff that’s little more than the results of an emotional and mental anemia. You’re carrying around a big load and you need a place to dump it. But I get it. I know the entanglement you’re in and I think this blog serves the purpose of allowing you to unburden yourself. At some point you will be empty, you may be there now, and then you’ll be ready to receive what God has to offer you.

    Regarding the Spirit. The spirit of Mormonism is not the Spirit that is revealed in God’s Holy Word the Bible. The spirit of Mormonism is a familiar spirit roaming about the spirit world and one that is rife with deceit. I must speak directly because your immortal soul is at stake here.
    The Father sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church which is peopled by all those who have come to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible. Therefore Mormonism doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ.
    You’ve come to a decision point in your life. Even as I post this I’ve stopped to pray specifically for you. I saw that you were bound in shackles and chains. But I saw those chains being broken as you took that step to assure that you will have eternal life.
    In the case of Alex, I saw his heart of stone being broken, obliterated by the Spirit of God.
    God has drawn both of you here to hear his call and to respond.
    The bottom line is that God’s will, will be done. You can fight all you want but the sands of time are moving through the opening in the eternal hour glass. I don’t know how much time you have but I wouldn’t delay in making that decision.
    May the Spirit of God descend upon you as He did on the Day of Pentecost giving you new life in Christ and a reborn spirit. God will have those whom He has marked out and set apart.

  46. Mike R says:

    Shem, at least you admit that Mormons claim to be the only true christians today . Now I think
    instead of Mormons campaigning aggressively the last couple of decades to be called “christian”
    it would more forthright for them , especially in public interviews, to loudly proclaim that they
    want to not just be called “christian” but in fact be called THE ONLY TRUE followers of Jesus .
    Non LDS christians are false followers in false churches preaching false gospels , but that
    message is probably not going to be used by the Mormon church’s P.R. Dept . —- it might scare
    off too many potential prospects 🙂

  47. Rick B says:

    Shem, These verses are speaking of Lucifer, but you also need to read the entire Bible to get the entire picture.

    Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

  48. shematwater says:

    Mike

    What I said was said more in jest than anything else. While I believe it firmly it really doesn’t do much good because it is something that cannot be proven in any matterial way. I was merely pointing out that it is possible to use the term Christian to apply to a very
    wide group, and yet not accept that all Christians are true followers of Christ. I think that is the curtisy tht most LDS are seeking for.
    We do not think that you are the true followers of Christ, and yet we can call you Christian. Why is such so difficult for you?

    MJP

    I am sorry for the confusion. I was speaking of the 3,000 that Peter preached to after the event that you describe. I am used to referring to all of it as Pentecost, and that might be an error on my part.
    As to testimonies of the spirit, I agree that the Holy Ghost will not contradict itself, and thus one of us is wrong. I believe I have a true witness, but that doesn’t mean much as far as you are concerned.
    What I am tired off is people who tell me that I can’t trust any spiritual witness because there is that off chance that it is the wrong spirit. This attitude denies the very purpose of the Holy Ghost as well as such things as the testimony of Peter and those thousands that were pricked in their hearts.

    Falcon

    Nice. You can’t actually counter what I say so you onse again resort to the personal attacks in order to divert the discussion from your own error and contradiction.

    Rick

    Ezekial 28: 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God…”

    These verses are speaking of the King of Tyrus, not Satan. The terms uses are metaphorical to show the granduer with which Tyrus was blessed and the reasons for its eventual destruction. It has nothing to do with Lucifer, who isn’t even mentioned.

  49. Mike R says:

    Shem, you stated : ” What I said was more in jest than anything else.”

    It was only a jest? That’s interesting because that sure does’nt fit your m.o.

    you said, ” It was merely pointing out that it is possible to use the term christian to apply to
    a very wide group, and yet not accept that all christians are true followers of Christ .I think that
    is the curtisy that most LDS are seeking for .”

    I realize it is possible , that’s why Mormons will use the common Dictionary definition of
    “christian” , and I already stated I have no problem with that reasoning . But that is far from
    the criteria to use in evaluating the exclusive truth claims of the leaders of Mormonism .
    Mormon Missionaries don’t carry and appeal to a Dictionary when they attempt to teach
    a person exactly what Mormons leaders have said about non LDS ” followers of Christ and
    other “christian ” churches , and thus their need for the “restored gospel ” .
    Furthermore , I’ve always felt that this pronounced effort to called christian by everyone is
    kind of a trojan horse type tactic because Mormon leaders don’t want to just be called christian
    they want in the christian community in order to proselytize easier . There was a time when
    Utah “Zion” began filling up with to many “gentiles ” to quickly . So slowly Mormon leadership
    realized that they had better try to convert non LDS instead of prolonging a “us (Mormons) vrs
    “them” ( all Christendom” ) attitude . Slowly this tactic has become the m.o. of the Mormon
    church and the last few decades it has progressed rapidly to where today Mormon demand
    the “curtisy ” to be included in the christian community as a brother . Now I personally don’t
    think that the view Mormon leaders have of non-LDS is much different than their recent
    predecessors had , but this is not as consistenly admitted to publically these days . The Mormon
    church Public relations sees to that .

    you said , ” We do not think you are the true followers of Christ and yet we can call you
    Christian . Why is that so difficult for you? ”

    It’s not difficult , yet I am still called an ” anti” . Why is that easy for them ?

  50. Rick B says:

    Shem, Lets break down the verses and you answer some questions, since I was expecting you to reply the way you did.

    You said

    Rick

    Ezekial 28: 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God…”

    These verses are speaking of the King of Tyrus, not Satan. The terms uses are metaphorical to show the granduer with which Tyrus was blessed and the reasons for its eventual destruction. It has nothing to do with Lucifer, who isn’t even mentioned.

    Yes verse 12 is speaking about the king of tyrus. But re-read 13-15

    Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    You mean to tell me the king of tyrus was in the garden of Eden? And he was covered with precious stones? And had pipes? Also it says, He was created. You mean the king of tyrus was created? That goes against being eternal and being in the pre-exstiance.

    Now read

    Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    The person or thing mentioned in verse 14 is the same person or thing mentioned in verse 13, so you mean the king of tyrus is an angel? And he was an anoited Cherub, which is an angel. And this King was on the holy mountain of God walking among the stones of Fire?

    Now read

    Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    again the person or thing mentioned in verses 13 and 14 is the same person or thing in verse 15, so you mean the king was created perfect until iniquity was found in him? Again it says he was created, you mean the king was created? Who else does the Bible say is an angel? Lucifer, was lucifer found in the Garden of Eden? Yes he was, was he found to be filled with iniquity? Yes he was.

    He was perfect until the day that iniquity was found in him. What is the iniquity that was found in him? Read Isaiah chapter 14, Isaiah gives us a little insight into this iniquity that was found in Satan. Isaiah 14:12

    How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning. How art thou cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations. 13: For thou hast said in thy heart, here is the iniquity, “In your heart you said, ‘I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north. 14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will be like the Most High.

    Now Eze 28:16-17 says

    And by the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. For thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before the kings, that they may behold thee

    Again, these verses do not speak of this human king.

Leave a Reply