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Cattyjane,
The LDS believe that the temple as they have it today was lost. That’s why Joseph Smith restored it. They believe too, I think, that Free Masonry had restored it first and they improved it, I have heard that from the LDS. I have also asked how many animals are sacrificed in LDS temples everyday. I have never had a response to that question here.
My husband borrowed my Bible on CD a few years ago and began listening to the NT on his commute. He came in one day and asked me why Mormons are building temples all over the place if God does not dwell in temples made by hands. This is very profound. We were both taught that the temple is God’s house.
Mormons either miss what the temple was used for or they have to believe that this is part of the Bible that isn’t translated correctly. I don’t know why they just don’t throw the Bible out.
FoF,
I just read Isaiah 2 where you said the temple was somehow related to the lds temples. Did you read verse 1? It says, concerning Judah and Jeruselem. Temple is also singular..One temple not many. This is referring to when the third temple is built and the Messiah comes and reigns forever. How in the world do you relate this to lds temples?
I dont know where you were headed with Malachi 3 but if you start at chap 2 and read to chap 4 you will see that the Lord is talking to the priests. Hes telling them that they have dishonored Him by teaching falsely and marrying wives from pagan countries. He says that they are partial regarding his laws and it was displeasing to Him. In chap 4 the Lord says to remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws given at Horeb for all Israel. Then it states that before the coming of Messiah that Elijah will come to turn people back to serving the true God of Israel. All the chapters are linked. You cant take a few verses and push meaning into it that it wasnt sopposed to have. What was your point with Malachi?
fifth monarchy man said to me , ” Lots of people have commented on how Christians and
Mormons speak two different languages but use the same words . I hope this is not just
another equivocation on Fof F’s part . ”
That’s my hope as well .
Kate,
Well the thing is that we are not allowed to just build a temple wherever we want. That is why the Jewish people do not have a temple right now and cannot submit the offerings to God. If the temple could be built anywhere dont you think they would have done so already? So this Mormon temple being made in the likeness of the Jewish temple is just sad and knowing what I do now im embarressed that I held it in such high esteem at one time. I look at it now more as the elks lodge country club gathering….basically you gotta be a member of the club to get past the door and it looks real attractive on the outside but really you arent missing much by not being let in. lol
RickB,
The examples you offer with Ted Bundy and Mother Teresa provide what is in my opinion a very gross and perverse version of a doctrine. But it is ultimately where the argument of saved by grace alone without any influence of our works leads to. It turns justice and mercy on their respective heads and makes God out to be a small-sighted partisan who functions only on favoritism.
Jaxi- using your logic, I suppose we should reject the teachings of Jesus because He used parables and stories to illustrate principles? And I understand the celebration of the lost sheep. And I readily believe that I, as well as all of us, are the lost sheep or prodigal son. That is not the issue. The story does not suggest that the brothers have equal standing in the father’s house as MJP suggested.
Palerider- It is very clear from many passages in the Book of Mormon that a person CANNOT perfect himself. It is only possible through the grace of Christ- this is very clearly what the Book of Mormon teaches. The verse you quote from Moroni can be interpreted in more than one way. And it makes sense to interpret in the way that is consistent with the other passages in the book that clarify or explain its meaning. I think your interpretation is unreasonable.
I think of cherry-picking as choosing verses that are not representative or that allow for a much less likely interpretation of a doctrine as the standard used in an argument. There are a lot of passages in the BOM that explain grace. Why do the critics exclusively use the one verse that can be interpreted in a way that can seemingly help the critic misrepresent our doctrine? It is a lack of integrity, in my opinion. Or at least opportunism.
Old man- no. None of the passages you quote states that works are not necessary. They do not save, that is clear. But NONE of the passages state that we are not commanded to obey. And this is perfectly consistent with what I am arguing AND can be reconciled with ALL Biblical passages on the topic. This can’t be said of your interpretation. This is very clear.
fifthmonarchyman- it is absolutely NOT “obvious” that the two sons are equal. The killing of the fatted calf, the robe, the ring- these certainly signify the father’s acceptance of the rebellious son. But it does not suggest that there are no differences between the sons. I understand this is not the main point of the parable. But it is a significant secondary point.
The verse you quote says that justification is not by works. And I have never claimed that we are justified by our works. We are justified by grace and mercy. This does not contradict the concept that we must follow and obey.
MikeR- your statement makes the assumption that the inability of those here to understand what I am trying to explain is a consequence of the complexity of what I am trying to explain. That is not the only option. Could those here who on the hearing end of my posts also be responsible for not understanding principles?
Catthyjane- thanks for the response. Temples. Very cool topic. But a person must understand first that the Law of Moses and the temple are not necessarily one and the same. There is overlap, but the two things are not equal. Consider that the Law of Moses was established at the time of Moses- around 1,400 B.C. So it was practiced appropriately for only 1,400 years of mankind’s history. But many people, including many of our critics, like to equate everything before Christ with the Law of Moses. And this is simply a misguided way of thinking.
We do believe that the temple ordinances that are performed today, with the exception of the vicarious ordinances, were also performed from the beginning- Adam and Eve.
There have been many gospel dispensations- times when God revealed His gospel and the saving truths that are eternal. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ- each period of time can be considered a dispensation. And in each of these instances, there was apostasy and following away- justifying a subsequent dispensation or revelation of the gospel.
The dispensation of the gospel at the time of Moses occurred among a people who largely rejected the higher principles of the gospel- Israel. The Law of Moses was given to the people because they rejected the “higher law.” The Law of Moses was intended to guide their behavior on a day-to-day basis in the most basic of matters, ultimately trying to point their minds and hearts to the eternal sacrifice of Christ which would be offered to atone for the world. And Christ’s atonement fulfilled the Law of Moses and the shedding of blood to atone for sin. But the higher law or spiritual gospel was not done away with. Does that make sense?
But understand what it is that the church today claims- that the gospel in its fullness has existed from the beginning at different times and through many prophets. Eternal marriage, the endowment, etc. existed from the beginning. And the revelations that came through Joseph Smith about the temple came as a restoration of that knowledge, authority, and doctrine.
Hope this helps to explain our perspective and doctrine relating to the Law of Moses and temples.
MJP- Back to the story in The Ultimate Gift. The grandson does absolutely nothing to create, contribute to, or build the empire of the grandfather. There is nothing the grandson has done in his life to build or create that empire. Yet, the grandfather bestows it upon him because the son completes the projects outlined by the grandfather. So, the boy did not earn the empire in any way, shape, or form within the economy in which the empire was created. Make sense? He did not “earn” or deserve that empire. But he had to do what the grandfather outlined for him to receive that inheritance.
You guys are insisting that we believe that what the boy does over a 6 month or year somehow created or generated that empire (in the discussion of our view of salvation). And this is simply wrong and short-sighted. Do you see what I am saying? There is nothing we actually do- no works or behaviors- that will create or generate our salvation. We are hopeless that way. Only Christ can do that type of work for us. But He commands us to do certain things and develop certain traits and virtues in order to inherit what He was done for us.
The Joseph Fielding McConkie (no authority) quote you have used refers to the law of the harvest idea. We are free to develop the traits we want to with the help of Christ and His grace. He will not force us. It is against His purposes to force us to become something. It is fully our choice. And in this way, I suppose it could be referred to as a “do it yourself project.” But, in my opinion, it is a very poor choice of words because our critics are so anxious to misrepresent our doctrine here.
We cannot be exalted without works. We must follow and obey and repent. We must follow the “projects” which Christ has outlined for us, just like the grandson must complete the projects outlined by his father. Neither we nor the boy “earn” our inheritance.
falcon (and others)- you claim I “jump over LDS leaders” in saying that Jesus has always been God. You do not understand, and I do not think any amount of discussion will result in your understanding. But I am not contradicting LDS leaders. You simply do not understand the doctrine or their statements.
FoF,
“So, the boy did not earn the empire in any way, shape, or form within the economy in which the empire was created. Make sense?” No, this does not make sense. We are in no way suggesting he created the empire. I’m really not sure where you get this idea from, to be honest. We are suggesting he had to earn his right to inherit the empire. I thought that was crystal clear. Perhaps not.
McConkie is not the only one to state the idea, though. Even if you don’t like his choice of words, you don’t dismiss his point. He does say that salvation is a DIY project, which is supported elsewhere by other LDS thinkers. I don’t care that he has no authority to define doctrine. He’s no slouch when it comes to understanding your faith, though, and his opinion does not come from a vacuum. You attach some sort of power to those who speak with authority, but when learned members of your faith who may not have the same authority actually interpret what it is you believe, you cast them out.
I am pleased, though, to see you admit that you have to work to be exalted. I realize you give the power of exaltation to something else, but without the works, you can’t get there. This then completes the circle and we are back to the question of what good, then, is God’s grace if we don’t work? If we don’t achieve exaltation, what has been accomplished? We are left in some outer heaven, won’t experience the fullness of Christ in every way, and can’t become our full selves.
Fof F , what kind of response was that ? I found it strange to say the least .
As for your belief that Jesus was always God is concerned , your leaders have
taught otherwise and that is something you’ll have to deal with , plain and simple .
I can’t take your testimony about other important doctrines ” as gospel” because I know
you’ll see the error of your leaders with those also —-hopefully soon . But whether it
happens tomorrow or years from now , it will happen if you anchor your beliefs about
God/ Jesus / salvation in the Bible and test the teachings of any latter days prophets
with that bedrock standard : 2Tim 4:3-4
FofF
“Old man- no. None of the passages you quote states that works are not necessary. They do not save, that is clear. But NONE of the passages state that we are not commanded to obey. And this is perfectly consistent with what I am arguing AND can be reconciled with ALL Biblical passages on the topic. This can’t be said of your interpretation. This is very clear.”
I wish you would make up your mind, I don’t know whether I’m coming or going with you. Do you mean works or do you mean obey? Or are they the same things in Mormonism? You would be correct in saying that the passages I quoted do not tell us that works are not required but neither do they tell us that they are so instead of simply assuming they are required because the LDS says they are it might be better to ask why such a requirement isn’t mentioned. Let me put it this way, if the doctrine of which you speak is so important then why do those passages simply tell us that works are not needed in order for us to be saved, Why don’t they tell us that we must also do good works? Surely Paul could have added a rider to his statements? Instead of saying that no one is justified by works he could have said something along the lines of ‘No one is justified by works but without those works we are not complete’ Sorry but I find your arguments strange to say the least.
No FofF, the reason we are not told that good works are a requirement is because they are NOT A REQUIREMENT is that so hard to understand?
I explained this previously to you but you either didn’t read what was said or you cannot understand. Anyway, I’ll paste it here again for you to check it out.
“You put the cart before the horse; all those things you mention would make salvation conditional. Obedience, repentance & action are the RESULT of, NOT the MEANS of, being saved”
It might be a good idea for you to do what I try to do, find the simplest explanation that fits the facts. (Occams razor) Oh sorry, I forgot, you say that I’m naïve if I do that. Oh well, better to be naïve & correct than sophisticated & wrong.
You told me that in none of the passages I quoted does it say that works come after being saved & you proceeded to accuse me of reading into them things that were not there (you of course would never do such a thing) well, I showed you quite clearly that Ephesians 2:8-10 says exactly that, I even typed in caps to emphasise the fact, but what was your reaction? There wasn’t one so I’ll show you again. Verse 10 says
“For we are God’s handiwork, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Explain to me if you can how the above can mean before we are saved. If you can’t then please do the honest thing & admit you were wrong.
FOF said,
The grandson does absolutely nothing to create, contribute to, or build the empire of the grandfather. There is nothing the grandson has done in his life to build or create that empire.
I say.
No one is disagreeing with that. when I do a job almost never do I “create” the wages that are payed to me. Are you some how saying that I could consider my hard-earned paychecks to be the product of grace? Your logic makes no sense
you say,
The killing of the fatted calf, the robe, the ring- these certainly signify the father’s acceptance of the rebellious son.
I say,
In the context of the ancient Middle east the robe and the ring signify that the youngest son has the authority and status of the father. It is simply a colorful way of saying that all that the father has is his. These highly symbolic gifts are in response to the prodigal’s contention that he is unworthy to be called a son.
Another way to look at this is to recognize that the older son represents the the Pharisees and the prodigal represents the sinners that Jesus is associating with (Luke 15:2). No one in their right mind would say that the Pharisees were seen as superior in Jesus eyes.
Again this is all just the obvious reading of the parable in context.
bye the way you did not comment on the parable of the vineyard workers in which the same reward was given completely regardless of the work done how do you understand that passage?
peace
FoF said
How in the world do you get favortism out of what I said? My life Verse is Romas 2:11 It states, God DOES NOT SHOW FAVORTSIM. So that goes against what you said.
The grace in the Bible that is NO WORKS, as I stated is great and awasome. I do not need to live my life wondering, Have I done enough? Being a mormon, you must wonder, have I done enough?
Also you cannot share your gospel with someone on there death bed or about to be excuted becasue They were never able to do works.
Watching that old guy in the video side step every question was so painful to listen to. It was almost as bad as watching Holland squirm when pressed about slitting throats in the temple.
Seriously, the first things out of that old guys mouth were out and out lies. He is a classic mormon trying to have it both ways when talking with christians (whom he doesn’t think understand or know what his doctrine really is.) Once he realizes that these guys know exactly what mormons believe he then finally admits to the “truth”.
“If I were to die right now I would go back to my Father in Heaven. Whether I would be in his presence or not… we don’t know” – old man Craig.
WHAT A CROCK!!! This guy either really really doesn’t understand mormon doctrine or he is just flat out lying. Right out of the gate…. lies.
FoF,
“using your logic, I suppose we should reject the teachings of Jesus because He used parables and stories to illustrate principles? And I understand the celebration of the lost sheep. And I readily believe that I, as well as all of us, are the lost sheep or prodigal son. That is not the issue. The story does not suggest that the brothers have equal standing in the father’s house as MJP suggested.”
I so knew you were going to go there. I would never reject a story or principle that comes from the very mouth of God because the story or principle is conveying TRUTH. You are using a fictional story that to demonstrate that a Mormon religious principle is true by using a story that we have no way of knowing is demonstrating true principles. It might be a heart warming tale of a man that learns some good lessons but it can in no way be used to demonstrate truth about God. My main point is that Christians use God’s word to teach the truth about God and you use a mushy movie. BIG difference.
Again, show me where it shows they don’t have equal standing. You are applying a very twisted interpretation to the beauty of God’s word.
Fof F said ,
” Falcon( and others) you claim I ‘ jump over LDS leaders ‘ in saying that Jesus has always been God . You do not understand , and I do not think any amount of discussion will
result in your understanding . But I man not contradicting LDS leaders . You simply
do not understand the doctrine or their statements .”
since I’m one of the “others ” you addressed this to I’ll simply remind you that you said
” I maintain that Jesus WAS ALWAYS GOD and divine.” But this is not what your
leaders have revealed about Jesus on numerous occasions .
Quite frankly I can’t take you seriously if you don’t answer this . But I certainly am not
going to keep asking you .
fifthmonarchyman,
I am not saying your paycheck is a token of grace. Your jobs exists within the same economy in which the company you work for makes a profit. It is within the same economy that both you and your payer work.
The economy in which Christ earned our salvation is a completely different economy than the one in which he bestows grace for our obedience. In the movie, the agreement or arrangement between the grandfather and grandson could be considered an economy that is entirely outside of the economy in which the grandfather created the oil empire. Two different sets of standards, finance, etc. Nothing the grandson did in completing the tasks from the grandfather took place within the real economy in which the oil business of the grandfather exists.
We have absolutely no access to the economy or work that produces our salvation. By nature of our sin, we cannot do anything in that economy. On the other hand, as a sinless Son of God, Christ had full access to the real law of the universe- or the economy of our salvation.
Old man- I understand that you have been taught a certain meaning in that verse you quote. But there is truly nothing in there that says our works only come after we are saved. God prepared works for us to do. Yes. I get that. It does not say we only do those works after we are saved. Read it again. Then again.
RickB- you are reversing or inverting the definition of favoritism. A God who chooses some people to be saved in heaven and sends others to burn in hell based on criteria that we cannot know is a God practicing favoritism. A God who judges us and sends us either to hell or heaven based on our agency and behavior within a system explained and provided to every person is not practicing favoritism. He is basing His decision and judgement upon clearly established, understandable, and agreed upon criteria. You have it backwards, friend.
And believing that your salvation is sure and can’t be lost does not mean that is in fact the truth. It may be a pleasant thing to live with. But that does not make it true.
Johnnyboy- can you demonstrate that the man in the video is lying or being untruthful? Merely making the claim does not do anything to support it.
Jaxi- the movie “The Ultimate Gift” comes from evangelical Christians. I think it is an effective and accurate analogy and demonstration of the way faith, works, grace, and salvation work.
MikeR- We simply do not know what it means exactly to have been born of Heavenly Father before this life. In some way, we have all existed for eternity. My opinion is that the birth in pre-mortal life resembles in some way our being “born again” here in this life. And this is why both the Father and Son can be referred to as “Father.” But that is beyond the scope of understanding of this thread. That being said, it is true that Christ is literally the Son of God. And it is true that Christ has existed forever as a perfect God. The leaders of my church have not declared doctrine that contradicts this. If you demand something more definitive than that- sorry, but you shouldn’t be complaining considering your belief in the trinity.
FoF said
Do you just make things up as you go? I never said this, Not once, If you really think I believe this then think again, I never once said I believe this way. I believe just as the Bible says, if we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior we will be saved, if we reject Him we will be damned. It is totally our choice to believe or not believe.
FoF said
Show me this from the Bible, You said (and agreed upon criteria). Sounds to me like your saying, God said Hello Human race, here are the rules, you do, X-Y and Z and you saved, otherwise your not, Is that agreeable to everyone. That makes no sense. God does not ask us for permission to do anything, He does as he pleases weather we like it or not and agree with it or not.
FoF said
Again, where do you get these things? When did I ever say this? I know for a fact I have said before, I do not hold to, Once saved always saved.
FOF said,
The economy in which Christ earned our salvation is a completely different economy than the one in which he bestows grace for our obedience.
I say,
What are you talking about??? Christ earned our salvation by providing the complete obedience to God’s commands the we owe to God and at the same taking the punishment that we deserve for our transgressions of those very commands.
How in the world you can view Christ’s obedience as a a “completely different economy” than our own obedience defies all comprehension. You certainly did not get such a bazaar idea from Scripture.
quote:
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(Hebrews 2:17)
and
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,……..Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
(Hebrews 2:11-15)
and
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
(Hebrews 4:15-16)
end quote:
The Grace we receive is conditioned on Christ’s obedience being exactly the same as ours .
Salvation is nothing less than Christ’s righteousness imputed to our account. If it is not exactly the same economy our debt is not payed and we are still in our sins!!!!!!!
quote:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(2 Corinthians 5:21)
end quote:
Strait forward transactions like this are only possible in the “same economy”.
Peace
FoF,
“the movie “The Ultimate Gift” comes from evangelical Christians. I think it is an effective and accurate analogy and demonstration of the way faith, works, grace, and salvation work.”
Why would I care if the work comes from evangelical Christians? Did the makers of the movie and the author of the book say that the point of this work was to demonstrate the way faith, works, and grace, and salvation work? And even if they did, should I take their demonstration over what the actual Word of God says? I get that YOU think it is a good demonstration of how faith, works, grace, and salvation work but you are stating your opinion that can’t be backed up with scripture and is therefore outside of truth.
@fof
Gimme a break, man. You know as well as I do that guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth. The fact that you have to have me spell it out for you is pretty sad.
LDS doctrine teaches plainly that we do NOT return to our Heavenly Father after we die. We go to spirit prison or paradise (which is generally considered to be here on earth). This man can’t answer one question with a straight answer. You know it and I know it. Do I really need to go through every half truth this guy claims? I’ve done the dance that this guy is trying to pull. It’s “let’s try and sound mainstream Christian when we all know that LDS Christianity is not even close”.
The only people who probably get to be in the fathers presence after they die are those with a “second anointing” and even that’s open for debate.
Sorry, but I just read this, and then reread it a couple times to make sure I wasn’t losing my mind.
“And it is true that Christ has existed forever as a perfect God. The leaders of my church have not declared doctrine that contradicts this.”
What? I mean I obviously agree with the first line but that is not Mormon doctrine and to claim it is would be to lie to yourself and everyone here. In Mormon theology: How is Christ our spirit brother if he was always a perfect God? Was he not once an intelligence, as Mormon doctrine teaches that we were? If God the Father was once a man who became God than how the heck was his Son a forever eternal God but not him? When Mormons become God’s, who will be the Christ for their world, this Mormon Christ or a different one? Will that one be an forever eternal God, unlike the Mormon parents? I am genuinely interested in how you put this all together.
@jaxi
There is no way to put it together. It’s all nonsense. What’s funny is I have heard so many folklore “doctrines”on this subject of Christ that it’s hard to get it all straight. Particularly on who the atonement “covers”. I’ve heard that it only applies to those of this world, but I’ve also heard that it applies to other worlds across the universe. I’ve even heard that Christ is visiting all those other worlds and that ours was “the worst” because we crucified him. That’s not including the multiple Christ’s that will exist from other Adam gods. And don’t get me started on mormon folklore about Lilith. Mormons love a good “Adams first wife” yarn spin every now and then.
Oh. I almost forgot another good one about why we don’t worship or pray to our Heavenly Mother (or even know her name). Its not because she is too “sacred”, it’s because we really don’t know who she is out of all the other Heavenly Mothers!! I kid you not, this was literally taught with a straight face in gospel doctrine class in my ward this year.
The twisting world of mormon folklore.
FofF said
“Old man- I understand that you have been taught a certain meaning in that verse you quote. But there is truly nothing in there that says our works only come after we are saved. God prepared works for us to do. Yes. I get that. It does not say we only do those works after we are saved. Read it again. Then again.”
I want you to be clear on this FofF, NO ONE taught me a certain meaning in that verse. I just accept the clear & obvious meaning. Having said that, once again I say you are wrong, so let’s put the whole thing in perspective.
You told me that the idea of works being done after being saved could not be found in the passages I gave so I gave you one, Ephesians 2:8-10 I told you that I typed the important words in caps for emphasis & you then completely ignore the emphasis & quote the rest of the verse which could possibly carry the meaning of before or after. So for the third & last time I’ll quote from Ephesians 2:10 again emphasising the pertinent words.
“For we are God’s handiwork, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
For your benefit I’ll go through the verse one step at a time.
“For we are Gods handiwork” Who is Paul talking about when he says ‘we’? He is referring to those who have believed the message of the gospel i.e. Christians.
“CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS to do good works” The old self is gone; through Christ we have become a new creation.
“which God prepared in advance for us to do” the works spoken of were prepared for us from the beginning, from the time of our election.
Taken as a whole that verse has only one meaning, the good works mentioned in it were prepared for us to do AFTER WE WERE SAVED, after we became new creations in Christ.
I can see what your problem is, you are trying to make scripture fit your beliefs, you try to make Gods word CONFORM TO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, so may I respectfully suggest that you discard your Mormonism if only for a short while, start afresh, read the Bible without bias & come to know & understand Gods word rather than Jo Smiths.
FofF I don’t base my beliefs on preconceived ideas or on what I have been taught, is Gods word only for learned men & Theologians? If it is then not many of us, myself included, are going to make it. No, my beliefs in the main are gained from what I read in scripture& the understanding of what I read gained through prayer. You should try it sometime; it actually works.
Ps. I apologise for my use of upper case, I do this for emphasis because even after all this timeI still haven’t figured out how to use bold or italics. Put it down to old age 🙂
Fof F , by persisting that your leaders agree with you that , ” Christ has existed forever as a
perfect God ” , you are only digging yourself into a deeper hole because they have flat out
taught that in heaven He was born to heavenly Parents there He was schooled and slowly
developed into BECOMING a God —He ATTAINED this rank , i.e. He was NOT ALWAYS
a perfect God . This teaching is a matter of record . Now you could have said initially that you
made a mistake in stating this about your leaders ( no one’s perfect) you could have said that
it was a slip etc , but since you persist in maintaining that they agree with you that Jesus was
always God then I simply can’t take you serious , you’re creating your own reality . But then
this is’nt the first time you’ve drifted into such behavior on this blog .
May you wake up to the fact that life’s to short to defend false prophets .
RickB,
Do you agree with the common evangelical belief that God saves people by calling them or bringing them to Him through His Spirit? In other words, people are saved when God calls them- it is nothing they initiate themselves? If so, combine that belief with your example with a killer and Mother Teresa- and you have favoritism.
As far as the two economies- The two economy explanation is one way of describing both our salvation as well as the story in the movie The Ultimate Gift. This is clearly not making sense to you. For that I apologize. I don’t know how to explain it in a way that you will understand. It’s really not complicated. You might think about it again and maybe even watch that movie.
Jaxi- Sorry, but it is true. The analogies used may not be perfect. But it is the best illustration of faith, grace, works, and salvation. Have you seen the movie?
And regarding Christ always being God- it is beyond the scope of our salvation. The things I am saying actually do fit together. But you are not getting it, and I understand. In your post, you pulled one of my sentences out of context. It is important to include all the things I stated to understand the doctrine I am trying to describe.
johnnyboy- consider this passage from the Book of Mormon.
“Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” Alma 40:11-12
The gentleman in the video was probably thinking of these verses. This passage does not mean that our spirits are in the presence of the Father. But in some way, the spirit world is home. We believe that Christ can appear there. And it was Christ who created the earth and our bodies. I think that the gentleman was referring to this passage of scripture and this doctrine. You might consider thinking a little more before making such inflammatory and derogatory statements.
Old man- I appreciate your effort here. And I accept that you think independently in interpreting the scriptures. Sorry for implying you didn’t. But the passage from Ephesians simply does not say what you are claiming. It in no way says that works are not required for salvation.
I will accept the idea that God somehow has things for us to do in this life after being “born again.”
The issue I see is that you are equating being “created in Christ Jesus” with the idea of once saved, always saved. And that is a crucial issue.
I do not believe that a person cannot lose his or her salvation. Our ultimate destiny is always conditioned on our faith in Christ and our willingness to follow Him. We still have agency after being born again. God does not force us to do those works He prepares for us.
Again- that passage does not say in any way that there is no requirement of our works for salvation.
Cattyjane,
“Well the thing is that we are not allowed to just build a temple wherever we want. That is why the Jewish people do not have a temple right now and cannot submit the offerings to God.”
We know this. The LDS have to completely ignore this or believe the Bible was corrupted and the plain and precious truth about temples was restored by Joseph Smith. They just have more knowledge, bless them. As I said, they should just throw the Bible out the window because they are a completely different (fraudulent) religion. They have no problem disrespecting the Bible at every turn yet in the next breath claim it’s part of their Scripture.
“Mormon temple being made in the likeness of the Jewish temple is just sad and knowing what I do now im embarressed that I held it in such high esteem at one time.”
I felt this way too. I spent from about the age of 6 or so until I was in my 30’s dreaming about the temple, I pressured my poor husband for years. It was the source of MANY hurts in our marriage. I have let all that go now. We don’t know what we don’t know right? I’m sure the temple was just as romanticised for you as it was for me.
“A God who chooses some people to be saved in heaven and sends others to burn in hell based on criteria that we cannot know is a God practicing favoritism.”
The thing is, he is calling us all to Him. And his criteria is simple: believe in Christ, in God incarnate. See John 6: 25-59. (Its interesting to note John 6: 28-29 where Jesus directly answers a question about what works to accomplish the works God requires with an answer of the only work needed to accomplish God’s work is to believe. But the immediate purpose is to demonstrate God’s pull in all of this, which the rest of the selection helps demonstrate.)
Notice in vs. 40 that Jesus says that whoever looks to Him will have eternal life. We view eternal life as salvation, as we die in hell, apart from God. But Jesus says everyone who comes to Him, everyone who looks to Him, will be saved. In vs. 45, we are told that “They will all be taught by God.” Vs. 49-50 Jesus compares those who manna in the desert– they died, but those who believe in Him will have eternal life.
I understand that vs. 44 states that no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them in. This is true, but it does not negate that the message is available to all. You also can’t ignore vs 64, wherein we are told Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would betray. With this discussion. God knows everything– he is omniscient, just as he is omnipotent. Therefore, he knows our hearts before we know them.
Is he playing chess up there? I don’t think so, but that does not mean he does not know our choices before we know them.
But, here is the point in response to your comment that God plays favoritism: if his message is that all who believe in Him will be saved, and that message is open to everyone– even the worst of sinners, then it is not a case of favoritism. That he knows what we will do and think before we know does not change that.
(Oh, and all of this must include a discussion of the sovereignty of God, who is and always has been supreme. If we are to concede God plays favorites, whose to say He can’t do that based on people’s belief in Him. Belief is the standard, not works. Jesus’ own words in John 6 make that abundantly clear:
“26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.””)
“Old man- I appreciate your effort here. And I accept that you think independently in interpreting the scriptures. Sorry for implying you didn’t. But the passage from Ephesians simply does not say what you are claiming. It in no way says that works are not required for salvation.”
This is getting wearisome; I really cannot comprehend how you can say such things. What do the preceding verses say? (Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace you have been saved through faith……not your own doing….gift of God, not a result of works.” How can it be made any clearer that we are not saved by works? I understand that your purpose here is to support LDS doctrine but surely not at the expense of truth. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that the expression “created in Christ Jesus” means anything other than that what it says? Do you for example imagine that it means everyone; saved & unsaved, Christian & Pagan? I understand what you are trying to say but that wasn’t what we were originally discussing anyway. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself in here but we were talking about whether we do good works as a result of being saved. You told me emphatically that the passage I quoted did NOT mean ‘after we are saved’ when clearly it means exactly that. There is simply no other way to interpret “created in Christ Jesus to do good works”
“The issue I see is that you are equating being “created in Christ Jesus” with the idea of once saved, always saved. And that is a crucial issue.”
Even if I was doing what you say it still wouldn’t be a crucial issue, those verses say what they say & the meaning is obvious to any Christian, unfortunately, it isn’t to you because you are still trying to make scripture conform to LDS theology. So let’s be clear about this, I am not equating anything with anything else. Why would I do that when I don’t even know if that particular idea is true? I know it would go against the grain for you to accept this but Christians believe that having BEEN SAVED THROUGH GODS GRACE we become NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST & that is EXACTLY what Ephesians 2:10 is referring to. I’m sorry FofF I believe you are sincere in your beliefs but unless & until you start to interpret scripture as it is given in the Bible rather than attempting to fit Gods word around LDS theology you’re going to remain way off track.
I think the best way to sum it all up is to paraphrase your own words.
‘The issue I see is that you are equating LDS theology with Gods word. And that is the crucial issue.’
FoF,
“Sorry, but it is true. The analogies used may not be perfect. But it is the best illustration of faith, grace, works, and salvation. Have you seen the movie?”
What exactly is true? I should look to movies to interpret my faith or the very WORD OF GOD? You say this movie is the BEST illustration? I guess God couldn’t provide the BEST illustration for us when he gave us His Word. Saying it’s true, with nothing more than reference to a movie based on someone’s novel, it not sharing truth. It’s sharing an opinion based on nothing more than “I like it”. Unless the author or the movie director is speaking for God. And I don’t have any reason to believe they are. Why would seeing the movie be relevant to this discussion at all? I have had you explain it to me and read the plot outline. Do I need to experience the powerful music and the looks on the actors faces? Why should me not seeing this movie replace what I have done, which is read the Bible. I read the parables that GOD provides.
Faithoffathers, I’m interested to know… You have explained what you believe Ephesians 2:8-10 does not say about salvation; would you explain what you believe it does say about salvation?
Kate- Did you know that the Jewish Priests in Jerusalem gave approval for a temple to be built in Egypt by Jews in that country? The actual document giving approval for the construction of the temple has been discovered. Actually, there were two Jewish temples in Egypt- one in Heliopolis and another in Elephantine. I know that it is the common claim of our critics that no legitimate temple could exist outside of Jerusalem. But that is simply not the case. It wasn’t the case in ancient times. And it is not the case today.
You might find this article from the Jerusalem POST interesting: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Was-there-a-Jewish-temple-in-ancient-Egypt-318363
MJP- the passage you quote from John is actually a very helpful statement about what it really means to “believe.” Elsewhere, Jesus very clearly commands us to do specific things- the sermon on the mount is a very good example (Matthew 5-7). In that sermon, Christ instructs us to forgive, to pray in secret, to give alms in secret, to fast in secret, to be a light to the world, to give to those who ask, to not lust, and many other things. At the end, He says, “whosever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man who buildeth his house upon a rock…..”
The passage in John is a simple statement that we are to believe in Christ. I have argued all along that actual obedience, repentance, and action are inherent in “belief.” And unless a person accepts this concept, the New Testament makes Jesus a person who contradicts Himself.
If I believe Christ, I will follow Him- repent, keep the commandments, and be cleansed through His great atonement. How can you separate “belief” from action? I think that is the main issue here. Christ referred to Himself as the Physician. What good does it do to intellectually believe the advice and counsel from a physician without doing what that physician prescribes? No good whatsoever. The benefit of a physician only is seen when the patient DOES what the physician says to do.
Old man- you are still not understanding the idea in the movie The Ultimate Gift. You are probably tired of that story. But I think it is the easiest way to understand what I am saying.
The passage in Ephesians is clearly saying that salvation is not a result of, or I would say created by, our works. Our works are not what generates or creates our salvation. And the grandson’s effort in completing the tasks from the grandfather in no way generated or created the oil empire. That is the meaning I see in Ephesians and all the other New Testament passages about faith and grace. There is nothing I can do to generate my own salvation. Only Christ can do the work of salvation. But He commands me to obey Him if I want Him to extend His grace to me. My works cannot result in salvation. But He extends His grace to me as I try to obey Him and do good works.
I think you guys are seeing in the Ephesians passage a complete disconnect between works and grace- as in there is absolutely no relationship or connection. I believe in his attempt to explain grace to a group of people among whom were those very much accustomed to placing saving value upon the Law of Moses, Paul made many statements to get them to see that their works were not what saved them. But I believe you guys are taking it too far in thinking that works are not required at all for salvation. And I believe that is where you guys go astray.
Why works then? Why are we commanded to obey if our works are not what saves us? I believe the answer to that is that obedience strengthens our faith. And this is what is explained in James 2: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” James 2:21-22
Faith both results in works and comes from works. Faith inspires good works and obedience to Christ. And as we do those works, our faith is strengthened. Without works, our faith cannot be strengthened.
So while our works do not save us, they strengthen our faith in Christ. And it is that faith in Christ that makes our salvation possible. Make sense?
This is absolutely the only paradigm or interpretation of the scriptures that reconciles all passages in the Bible regarding salvation. Any other interpretation, in my opinion, requires the abandonment of at least some of the passages. This brings them all together and makes complete sense.
@fof
I knew you would try and use that scripture from the BoM to try and excuse this mans obfuscation. Even if he is trying to equate returning to Gods presence with that scripture that’s still being completely dishonest to the question no matter how you try and spin it. Which is precisely why I will be “inflammatory”. He knows that the question presented to him is very direct and yet he still can’t answer it without giving a false answer, and then you come along injecting what you “believe” he is referring to.
If you think that’s what he meant, that is even worse because either the LDS church is wrong regrading this topic or the BoM is wrong regarding this subject (according to what you think the scripture you quoted means). You can easily go the FAQ page on lds.org and look what the church says regarding the afterlife. And you using that scripture to try and justify that mans lying is just as bad as his lying. So please spare me your classic mental gymnastics.
Oh, and I will be completely derogatory when someone like old Craig there completely misrepresents the religion I held dear and believed in for over 30 years because he is trying to save face in a YouTube video.
It’s offensive and deserves to be mocked.
Funny, FoF, I don’t see any of that in John’s description of what Christ told his followers. I see Jesus telling folks very clearly that the work of the Father is to believe in Him.
The Sermon on the Mount deals with matters of the heart. I see no requirements as outlined by your church. No special ceremonies. No special garments. No special hand gestures. Nothing. The Sermon on the Mount, I find it ironic, ends with warnings to watch out for false teachers, and Jesus telling us: “If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!”
But even the matters of the heart do not change Christ’s admonition in John 6: believe and you will have eternal life. That’s not the only place he tells us all we have to believe. John 3:16 is another great example. And in Matthew 7, we have Jesus telling us that all we have to do to get good stuff from God is to ask!
As to Ephesians, the words clearly say what they say, just as they do in John 6. Works don’t save us, belief in Christ saves us. To deny that, well, is to deny Jesus himself. If you’re saying otherwise, you’re saying that Jesus didn’t really mean it when he said the words of God are to believe (remember, he was asked a very specific question about which works to complete…).
Johnnyboy,
It is not uncommon for our critics to use the proverbial sledgehammer approach as you are here. Black and white, my way or the highway idea. Outside of the LDS person’s (in the video) mix-up of Heavenly Father and Jesus, I would agree with him. He is not lying or obfuscating as you suggest. We go to the spirit world either paradise or spirit prison. And this guy tries to briefly explain what that means.
He says, “when a person dies, nobody is really ready to go into heaven.”
Why do you think this guy is lying? What is his motive? Is he embarrassed of our doctrine? What is his strategy or motive in lying?
I really don’t see a reason for your outrage. There is clearly overlap in our doctrine. And the man is trying to explain context- something the sledgehammer approach almost never allows.
MJP- you are equating “works” with temple ordinances. Yes- temple ordinances are outward actions. But not all works are temple ordinances. You are squirming here. I never said anything about temple ordinances. Go back and read the sermon on the mount. Jesus very, very clearly outlines actions that He commands us to do. Do I need to list them?
Here are the things Christ commands in the sermon on the mount:
First, He pronounces blessings upon the: 1) poor in spirit; 2) those that mourn; 3) meek; 4) hunger and thirst after righteousness; 5) merciful; 6) peacemakers.
He then commands:
1. Be a light unto the world
2. “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
3. Do not be angry with your brother
4. Do not lust
5. Do not swear
6. Turn the check when smitten
7. Go the extra mile with he who bids you to go a mile
8. Give to them that ask
9. Give to those who would borrow from thee
10. love your enemies
11. be perfect
12. do alms in secret
13. pray in secret
14. fast in secret
15. seek the kingdom of God
16. Judge not
17. Do not give that which is holy to the dogs.
18. ask, seek
19. Enter the straight gate
20. Beware of false teachers and prophets
You seem to be jumping into other topics. The topic here is the need for our obedience and our works. And Jesus plainly tells us the types of works He wants us to do. Does this list of 20 things from Christ require no effort on our part. It doesn’t matter if these are primarily “matters of the heart.” He commanded us to do them. And they can be pretty difficult. They require “work.”
You cannot say you “believe” in Christ if you do not do these things.
Do you have a response to my explanation of the relationship between works and strengthening faith?
FOF,
You mention a film titled “The Ultimate Gift” as a way of describing your view of salvation.
I bet the movie is truly heart warming and sends some good messages.. But I also think the title is misleading. The grandson was required to fulfill certain obligations before receiving the inheritance. By definition of the word “gift” the inheritance of the company isn’t a gift at all because a gift is given without condition.
If the movie were truly representing the gift of salvation it would have instead went something like; the grandfather tells the grandson “I have established this amazing company, I have poured blood sweat and tears into it. If you want, I will give it to you no questions asked because I love you and have a purpose and plan for you and I know that with my help you will be all you were created to be.” Than the grandson, decides to take the gift. The love, compassion, and generosity of the Grandfather completely breaks down the grandson, he is able to see for the first time his purpose in life and how far he has strayed from it. He decides to follow any and all direction the grandfather can give him because he sees what an intelligent and loving man his grandfather is and wants to emulate him.
To be honest I do not understand the LDS version of salvation at all. It is so far off from what the Bible taught me it may as well be a different word.
Here is a good example. I just watched a film by sourceflix about shepherds in Isreal. It’s called “Soul Shepherd”. You should DL it and watch it. http://vimeo.com/67785034
Christ (the good shepherd) went out to the desert where I (the sheep) was wandering. Thirsty, hungry, sick, and weak. He came to me. He left the 99 to find me. I didn’t have to do anything but call for His help. He came to me, picked me up, and brought me back where I belonged.
In the LDS version of Salvation,I would have had to somehow get myself back to His presence. He might have even made a path for me to follow. But in the weak state I was in, I could never have made the journey. I was willing but I needed Him to carry me.
The God I know doesn’t want us to wander. He is the good shepherd. He doesn’t scatter His sheep to see which ones find their way back. We wander away because we are sheep and we are dumb. We don’t understand that without our shepherd we are vulnerable and defenseless. Once we realize how much we need Him, He doesn’t stand there watching us stagger back. He comes and gets us.
FoF,
I sense you think you have me shakin’ in my boots. Except you gloss over the temple ordinances as if they are not works. I am not equivocating here– rather, you are.
You are playing free with the definition of a work. You ignore very clear statements from Christ that eternal life, salvation, comes from belief.
I understand how you say that works can strengthen faith. You actually have no argument from me stating that discipline in spiritual matters (matters of the heart) can lead us closer to God on this earth. The simple truth is that they do. But that is not salvation. Salvation is apart from these works– so that no one can boast.
You ignore Jesus’ description of what works to complete when asked directly in John 6. All you’ve said is that belief and works cannot be separated. But that’s not what he says. He says we are to believe in Him. The spiritual disciplines from the Sermon on the Mount do not save us– they bring us closer to Him, yes, but they do not save. Jesus tells us belief is what saves– clearly and directly, and in response to a direct question about what works must be done.
What you are doing is turning Jesus’ clear words on their heads. You take a specific statement from Christ, and undo it. You take his comment that says that only belief is necessary, again in response to a direct question on works, and say that’s not really what he meant. You then turn around and say he really meant you have to do these specific things if you want to be saved, even though he only said belief is necessary.
Does this make sense? Of course not. If, in his answer to what works are required, he meant specific works are necessary along with belief, or somehow that belief is shown through obedience and works, he would have said so. But he doesn’t do this, does he?
The message of the Gospel is simple– believe in Christ and you will be saved. Take Jesus at his word. Take him at his word when he says that all you have to do is ask. Take him at his word that he will turn no one away who seeks after him.
I pray you can do that.
FofF
“Paul made many statements to get them to see that their works were not what saved them. But I believe you guys are taking it too far in thinking that works are not required at all for salvation. And I believe that is where you guys go astray…….Why works then? Why are we commanded to obey if our works are not what saves us? I believe the answer to that is that obedience strengthens our faith. And this is what is explained in James 2: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” James 2:21-22”
I’ve said this before, Mormons have a tendency to misuse James because they don’t really understand what he’s saying. (James 1:5 as used by Mormon missionaries being a good example.) anyway, James doesn’t mean that Abraham was justified by works he is saying that Abraham was justified because he believed God & that belief was shown in his actions. In Romans 4, Paul uses Abraham as an example of the doctrine he outlines in the previous chapter. He shows that Abraham was not justified by works but by his faith, i.e. he believed God. You will also find the same words used in Genesis 15:6
Perhaps I haven’t made myself clear in previous posts but this is what I’ve been trying to tell you all along. Faith in Gods promise (John 3:16) leading to action AFTER being saved. Please try to understand this FofF, Abraham was saved because he believed, Christ at that time was a future event but nevertheless Abraham believed Gods promise. Read Galatians 3:16
May I suggest that you read first of all Romans 3:21-30 & then Romans 4 in its entirety.
“Faith both results in works and comes from works. Faith inspires good works and obedience to Christ. And as we do those works, our faith is strengthened. Without works, our faith cannot be strengthened.”
Just one thing to say regarding that, what good works was Paul was doing before he came to know Christ.
Finally, a quote from an online discourse on Romans, it explains things so much better than I.
“The word “counted,” very important word. It’s the word logizomai. ……. And what does it mean logizomai. It means “to credit to one’s account, to put to one’s account, to reckon, to impute to one.” And what it’s saying is that because he believed, God imputed to him, put to his account, a righteousness which Abraham on his own did not possess. That’s the whole point. And, beloved, that’s what salvation is all about. When you believe God, when you believe the Word of God and the promise of God then God takes a righteousness you don’t have and ‘Puts it to your account. That’s a legal act. Righteousness is put on your account. ….. We are credited with a righteousness we do not have and how? By faith, this is the heart, listen, of all Christian theology. It’s the heart. You muff this doctrine and You’ve blown it.”
FofF it’s been interesting but I will make no further comments on this subject, the evidence has been presented to you but it’s for you to decide what to do with it. I pray that you will find the courage to break free from the heretical teachings of the LDS & follow the true Christ of the Bible.
Ps. I haven’t seen the movie to which you refer so I’m afraid I can’t comment.
FoF you said
Right after you left your reply, MJP replied to you, I thought that was a good reply and much of what MJP said, I would have also said. Now with that I will add this,
Someone else Mentioned John 3:16, But let me ask you this, where in John 3:16 do you get the idea That God has set some apart to go to hell? It says, God Loved the entire world and he came and Died for the entire world. You cannot find in the Bible God only died for a select few.
The Bible also teaches
All who call upon the lord will be saved. This does not teach Only some will call upon the Lord, or only those God wants to call upon Him, it is ALL who call upon the Lord.
Then this
When it says Perish, it is talking about eternal damnation. God does not desire any to go to hell, so people who believe God set some apart to go to hell are wrong, and it says, He wants ALL to come to repentance. We just know from Scripture, Not everyone will.
So these verses go against what you thought I believed.
Well, I have tried explain the doctrine of faith, grace, works, and salvation from an LDS perspective. And it is still clear that we disagree on what is true regarding that topic. But what is also still true is that I have not seen one person acknowledge or restate what it is that I am trying to explain. And this is something that I have pointed out before and something that is, in my opinion, extremely significant.
I accept that I may fall short in my ability to explain this. But that is not the only possible reason for the critics not being able to restate the doctrine from our perspective. What is extremely frustrating is the likelihood that despite my attempts to explain our doctrine relating to this topic, it will most likely be a matter of minutes- maybe hours- before some critic here who has read this thread claims that LDS believe our works will save us or that we do not believe we are saved by grace.
Many of you keep throwing out different New Testament passages in the attempt to show me that I am wrong. But none of those passages are contradictory to what I am arguing here. And I do not think that anybody sees it. And that is OK.
I would point out that nobody has directly engaged the verse in James that says that in the case of Abraham, “by works was faith made perfect.” This is a key passage explaining the relationship between works and faith. We are saved by having faith in Christ and His atonement. But our works strengthens our faith. And therefore, works have an indirect influence on our salvation. Old man simply responds that I don’t get it. But does anybody have any interest in explaining how those words do not mean what I believe they mean. “By works was faith made perfect.” Abraham’s faith was strengthened, or “perfected” by works. (Yes- I understand that the passage is not saying that Abraham was not justified by his works.)
I appreciate the effort to engage here. I hope I have not offended anybody. But I think it is very telling that not one critic can explain back to me what I am arguing. It is very suspect for those critics to turn around and make claims about our false understanding about salvation, faith, grace, etc.
FOF,
The reason I brought up the movie about “the soul shepherd” is because I believe it answers your question. The problem is that you and I need salvation for different reasons. You and I need a Shepherd for different reasons. The LDS plan for salvation indicates that we are sent here to be tested so that we may have the opportunity to be exalted in the next life. Thats why it is important for Mormons that Christ died. In my understanding of what your saying anyways. Adam gave us the opportunity to be tested and Christ provided a way for us to come back to heavenly father and be tested further in a more perfected state? To see who may eventual make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom and become like God. The grandpa in the film you were talking about had to form and mold the grandson by having him preform tasks before inheriting the company. He “perfected” his grandson by having his grandson do works.
Here is the difference.
Christians believe we were separated from God by turning from God, born of the flesh in a sinful world. We don’t believe in a preexistence. We aren’t here to be tested or perfected, we are made to love and seek God. Christ’s death paved the way for restoration between God and human kind. We aren’t trying to become literally like God, we are trying to get closer to him. Thats the difference.
So thats where salvation comes in. Without it we are eternally separated but with it we are eternally in fellowship. Because we aren’t trying to become like God, literally, works serve to bring us closer to God and have no part in our salvation. We aren’t working to obtain anything but a restored uninhibited relationship with our father in heaven. The bible does speak of rewards (crowns actually) but it also says we will throw these crowns at the feet of Christ because no matter what we do, we will always be aware of our sinful nature and of what Christ did for us.
This is why we don’t understand you and this is why you cannot grasp what we are saying.
The premis for why we need salvation is so different. Our role, the role of God, the role of Christ.. It is all so different. Same words, different meanings.
The problem is that Saved or Salvation has several different meanings in Mormonism.
“As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.”
This is from an official source of the church. Read it and you decide.
Oops, the link would be nice 🙂
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng
FOF said,
I would point out that nobody has directly engaged the verse in James that says that in the case of Abraham, “by works was faith made perfect.”
I say,
If I remember correctly you and I went round and round about this verse when I first visited this website. I don’t have time for that merry-go-round again
Long story short your leaders have given you the odd impression that works complete (Greek ετελειωθη) faith. An impression that is just nonsensical on it’s face. Just think about it How can doing something make faith stronger? It’s backwards logic
In actuality it is saving faith (a gift of God remember Ephesians 2:8 ) that produces works and is therefore demonstrated to be complete. That is the clear meaning of the text in context when you don’t read it from twisted Mormon presuppositions.
peace
I said that I wouldn’t make any further comments on this issue but FofF said something that seems to throws doubts on my integrity, I like to think he didn’t intend to do that but I quote him here;
“We are saved by having faith in Christ and His atonement. But our works strengthens our faith. And therefore, works have an indirect influence on our salvation. Old man simply responds that I don’t get it. But does anybody have any interest in explaining how those words do not mean what I believe they mean. “By works was faith made perfect.”
I didn’t simply respond by saying you don’t get it, I have gone to great lengths in numerous posts to explain what it’s all about &, it so happens that I agree, at least in part, with what you say above. I said as much when I was explaining the meaning of James 2:21-22
I said this
“Perhaps I haven’t made myself clear in previous posts but this is what I’ve been trying to tell you all along. Faith in Gods promise (John 3:16) leading to action AFTER being saved.” For action read works, it’s the same thing.
Where we disagree is just when that faith & the works that follow are perfected, it should be clear, not just to you but to anyone who has been following this discussion that if James is read in conjunction with all the other passages relating to justification that any works done will be counted as righteousness ONLY AFTER A PERSON IS SAVED or in other words, after that person has believed & accepted Gods promise. Therefore works play no part either directly or indirectly, in our salvation.
“I appreciate the effort to engage here. I hope I have not offended anybody. But I think it is very telling that not one critic can explain back to me what I am arguing.”
Well, I have done my best to get across the Christian viewpoint to you but I’m not sure what you mean when you ask us to explain your argument back to you. Be that as it may, you certainly haven’t offended me & although I disagree with much of what you say I appreciate the way you have conducted yourself.
And that dear reader is definitely my last word on this particular issue
Brewed
You have it in one, “Same words, different meanings.”
quote:
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” (2 Corinthians 12:9a)
end quote:
By your logic God’s power is not complete/perfect ( τελειται) unless we are weak. Do you still not get it?
Peace
Sorry folks, I’m back again but this time to correct what I said in my previous post. I misread what FofF said, he said works strengthen faith but I was talking about faith leading to works. sorry for any confusion I may have inadvertently caused. Put it down to old age & fatigue (it’s very late)
Brewed,
It seems that you are changing the debate. Why? LDS believe that without the atonement of Christ, we are all lost for eternity without any hope. We actually believe that we all follow the fall of Adam in a very real way. Mosiah 3:16 states that “And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.”
You can argue all you want that our need for salvation is different. But I don’t see that. We are all fallen and hopeless without the grace of Christ. Your argument is simply false and beside the point.
Kate- salvation to us can be either salvation from death or salvation from sin. And in this thread, we are talking about salvation from sin- which is required to live in the presence of God. You can call it heaven or the Celestial Kingdom or whatever. To live with God is what I am talking about here. And this discussion is about how a person receives that gift of living with Him.
fifthmonarchyman- I am not relying upon anything but the text of the New Testament. It clearly says that works increased, strengthened, perfected, completed- whatever you want to say- Abraham’s faith. Do you disagree? You can choose whatever translation you desire- the meaning is the same. Abraham’s faith was effected by his works. How was his faith effected? It was completed, or strengthened, or perfected.
If obedience or works does not increase faith as you insist, how is our faith strengthened? By squinting our eyes real tight?
Old man- I appreciate your patience. But look at the text again. Abraham’s faith was strengthened by his actions. And we are saved by faith in Christ. So behavior and obedience effects our salvation.
fifthmonarchyman- you mean like Ether 12:27:
“And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.”
here we go round the merry-go-round again
FOF said,
If obedience or works does not increase faith as you insist, how is our faith strengthened? By squinting our eyes real tight?
I say,
WOW, That you would even ask such a question shows you have spent no time in the word of God
quote:
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
(Mark 9:24)
and
The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
(Luke 17:5)
and
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing (2 Thessalonians 1:3A)
and
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, (Hebrews 12:2a)
etc etc etc
end quote:
How could you have possibly missed this???
FOF said,
How was his faith effected? It was completed, or strengthened, or perfected.
James said,
quote:
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
(James 1:2-4)
End quote;
God gives us faith (James 1:17)…….. God’s testing of our faith produces…….. steadfastness……steadfastness causes………. completeness
According to James we add nothing to the mix. It is all of God. that is the context of James chapter 2
you said,
you mean like Ether 12:27:
I say,
1) First of all I do not accept human writings as authoritative
2) What does this quote have to do with the price of tea in china?
3) Are you so committed to your rebellion as to actually blaspheme God by claiming his power is incomplete unless we are weak?
peace