Moroni 8:18 — Things Have Changed for Mormons

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142 Responses to Moroni 8:18 — Things Have Changed for Mormons

  1. grindael says:

    My point is that people who haven’t even read a book or work but who go onto public forums and claim to understand more about a given topic or book than those who have studied it and read it countless times over decades are no different than a person who has never read Shakespeare going into a public forum and bickering with a Shakespeare expert about the works of Shakespeare. It is naive and hypocritical for such a person to point the finger at the more informed one and claim he or she is “living in a bubble” or doesn’t know what they are talking about. I am truly embarrassed for you, to tell you the truth.

    This is from a guy who I PROVED misquoted the BOM twice in this forum. If this wasn’t so pathetic, it would be funny.

  2. Mike R says:

    Fof F, your response to my last post was truly lame . You merely criticized and resorted using red herrings . You said to Falcon that , ” I maintain that Christ was always God and
    divine.” I merely shared what Mormon leaders have said about Jehovah’s pre earth life
    and these teachings expose your belief as inaccurate . Now you can believe whatever
    you want and still call yourself a Mormon , but I choose to take what your leaders teach
    over rank and file members opinions .
    What I said about the Mormon Jesus was gleaned from Church publications .
    People can re- read what I have said and see the difference between the original Jesus
    and the new latter days version introduced by Mormonism authorities , then they
    can make a choice which one to follow .

  3. Mike R says:

    Fof F, your response to my last post was truly lame . You merely criticized and resorted using red herrings . You said to Falcon that , ” I maintain that Christ was always God and
    divine.” I merely shared what Mormon leaders have said about Jesus’ pre earth life
    and these teachings expose your belief as inaccurate . Now you can believe whatever
    you want and still call yourself a Mormon , but I choose to take what your leaders teach
    over rank and file members opinions .
    What I said about the Mormon Jesus was gleaned from Church publications .
    People can re- read what I have said and see the difference between the original Jesus
    and the new latter days version introduced by Mormonism authorities , then they
    can make a choice which one to follow .

  4. MJP says:

    FoF,

    In all due respect, I gave you a quote from a member of FAIR. He is an informed member of your church. And now you continue to dodge and evade. This brings me back to the issue of honesty. It seems dishonest to be given so much argument and to dodge all of it by dismissing it.

    I can’t take you seriously. This is not the first time you have done this. In fact, it is rather a pattern. When you are given something so clear and rational you need to address it. If it is so easily dismissed with evidence, dismiss it with evidence. Don’t accuse the person making the clear and rational argument of being out there.

    If you cannot do that, you are being dishonest by avoiding a very real argument.

  5. grindael says:

    So I suppose, using your line of logic, the work of Christ was completed at the time of the last supper?

    Of course it was. Jesus said it was. Or don’t you believe that Christ knew the future? He was not going to back out of what was to come. For Him, it was completed, because he gave them the means to achieve eternal life. He taught it to them. That was his work given to Him by the Father. Or was Jesus lying then? That is why you deny Christ. How silly of you not to see this. You are blind. As Jesus said, “Every plant that my Heavenly Father did not plant will be pulled up by the roots,” and “Let them alone. They are blind guides, and when one blind man leads another blind man they will both fall into the ditch!” You have fallen in a ditch with your self proclaimed “prophets”.

    And I’m not putting words in your mouth, because you don’t believe that Christ finished his work at all. YOU SAID SO, genius. And where have I EVER said that Christ “ended the need for prophets”? There are still prophets in the world today. We just don’t need them as “spokesman” who make petty regulations for us to follow them and not Jesus. I have prophesied myself. Twice. And I have witnesses who were there and saw the fulfillment of them. But I’m not a prophet and make no claims to be. You don’t understand what a prophet is. You do not understand the Holy Spirit. You believe in prophets who don’t prophecy, seers who see nothing, and revelators that reveal nothing. They only invest money, and are of the world, which Christ condemned. As Paul said,

    3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (1 Timothy 6)

    Joseph Smith was ALL ABOUT MONEY. He continued to talk of “buried treasure” over and over. He even wrote “revelations” about finding treasure. How unlike Paul he was. This is your Mormon “prophets” described to a tee. Read my comments to Brian Hales on the polygamy thread for how much those Mormon “apostles” desired to be rich. Brigham Young was a monster and a liar, (he lied right to Horace Greely’s face when he told him he wasn’t paid a salary when he made $10,000 a year while the poor were pulling handcarts across the Great Plains) and every other Mormon “prophet” has lived like some kind of Emperor while their fellow “saints” suffered and died believing in them. Stay in your bubble of denial and keep ignoring these facts. Do so at your own peril.

    You say you know all about Mormonism, but you don’t. You say you’re some kind of expert on the Book of Mormon, but you’re not. You can only cat call me from the sidelines, but can’t produce anything to back up what you say. Mormon “prophets” lied and perjured themselves to Congress, lied to their people, bribed Supreme Court judges, committed murder, were greedy, arrogant and full of hatred for the United States, the same Government that they all “prophesied” would be destroyed before the turn of the twentieth century and now act like they love. The Nepotism and Narcissism of Mormon “prophets” is truly nauseating. But you won’t discuss these things. None of you will, because of the massive cognitive dissonance that keeps you in the bubble of denial.

    Prophecy is a GIFT of the Spirit, given when the Spirit dictates. Read Revelation Chapter 11 for what REAL PROPHETS will be like, who will have a message FOR THE WORLD. Now that is a far cry from Mormon suits who are only good for running a multi-billion dollar Corporation. You won’t find those prophets in Revelation acting like the ones you want me to follow, that’s for sure. And when have Mormon prophets ever acted like Agabus? Never. They tell us to do the things that anyone can tell us to do, (follow their forced regulations). They don’t prophesy. At all. They can’t. Plain and simple. Jo Smith gave false prophecy after false prophecy. I just quoted one. And you want me to follow them? Fat chance. All your quotes were for what purpose? To prove that there were prophets after Christ? Even a child can understand that, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Who do you think you are talking to? God has the reins of my heart, not some Corporation Suit in Utah. You’ve been willingly brainwashed and revel in your ignorance of Mormon History and doctrine, and then denigrate those who have forgotten more than you know. The difference between us is I can back up what I say, and you cannot.

    And if you had bothered to read my post with just a little comprehension you would have seen that the Holy Spirit continues in the world and gives “gifts”, like the prophecy of those you quoted from the Bible. But they sure didn’t all hold the “office” of a prophet (like the Mormons) at the same time now, did they? You are confused, but that is par for the course. In fact, those prophets would have been ignored if they were here today, because in Mormonism they would not have been allowed to speak for the church, which they obviously did. They sure didn’t need a correlation committee to validate what they said was true. The Spirit works freely, Mormon “prophets” strangle it. That is the real deception and fallacy of Mormonism. It denies the Holy Spirit, and it denies the work of Christ, like you do.

    Why does Paul instruct the saints to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling?” I thought the “work of salvation” was done? By the way, the atonement of Christ was completed at the resurrection. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    LOL. You are conflating two things here. (Typical). Christ did finish the work of salvation. He finished it before Gethsemane. He said so. As for the other part of what you are obviously confused about, if you read the Bible, you could answer your own question, because Paul answers it in Titus,

    3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. Titus 3)

    Couple that with what Paul said here,

    12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.(Romans 12)

    We are transformed by the Holy Spirit to do good works. They have NOTHING to do with our salvation. We “test and approve God’s will for us”, which is by doing things good and pleasing to God which is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, who gives to every man according to what he deems right and good for that individual. There is no set of rules. Those were done away by Jesus. We live and work now by the Spirit and there is only the Royal Law, to Love God and Our Neighbor, but as Paul said we still UPHOLD the law because if you are transformed by the Spirit you will keep it, and that is the sign of your faith. You never seem to understand this very simple thing, because you don’t understand the Holy Spirit. But it is not by FORCE that we keep the commandments, or by (carrot and stick) “do this and you get a temple recommend”, as Mormonism teaches by instituting Spirit-strangling regulations.

    Mormon “prophets” put a yoke around the neck of the Holy Spirit, and deny people their rightful gifts of the Spirit by making them conform to a modern law of Moses. It is anathema to what the doctrine of Christ is.

    Read now, Philippians in CONTEXT,

    2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. 14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life.

    Working out your fear and trembling is simply living by the Spirit. This has nothing to do with Christ completing the work of God. He did. God’s part is done. It is now up to us to believe, and hold fast, and as Paul states,

    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3)

  6. falcon says:

    FOF,
    You are creative, I’ll give you that.

    You could use a good Bible study and a tutorial on proper Biblical exegesis and interpretation. Given your approach, I could start a religion today based on about any verse in the Bible I wanted to choose.
    ………………and that’s basically Mormonism in a nut shell.
    So when Jesus said that He had completed the work then the cross was about what?
    When he hung on the cross He said “It is finished.” The Greek words literally mean, “The debt is paid.” It is an accounting term. Nothing can be added to a debt that has been paid in full measure. All that is left is to accept the payment which as Christians we do by faith.

    It would sort of help you FOF if you had any clue at all at how to approach Biblical interpretation. Mormons are typical of most cultists grabbing a verse here and there and not relating it to anything else that’s in the Bible.
    Here’s a little lesson for you:

    “Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.”
    “Just prior to His arrest by the Romans, Jesus prayed His last public prayer, asking the Father to glorify Him, just as Jesus had glorified the Father on earth, having “finished the work you have given me to do” (John 17:4). The work Jesus was sent to do was to “seek and save that which is lost” (Luke 19:10), to provide atonement for the sins of all who would ever believe in Him (Romans 3:23-25), and to reconcile sinful men to a holy God. “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). None other but God in the flesh could accomplish such a task.”

    “Also completed was the fulfillment of all Old Testament prophecies, symbols, and foreshadowings of the coming Messiah. From Genesis to Malachi, there are over 300 specific prophecies detailing the coming of the Anointed One, all fulfilled by Jesus. From the “seed” who would crush the serpent’s head (Genesis 3:15), to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, to the prediction of the “messenger” of the Lord (John the Baptist) who would “prepare the way” for the Messiah, all prophecies of Jesus’ life, ministry, and death were fulfilled and finished at the cross.”

    “Although the redemption of mankind is the most important finished task, many other things were finished at the cross. The sufferings Jesus endured while on the earth, and especially in His last hours, were at last over. God’s will for Jesus was accomplished in His perfect obedience to the Father (John 5:30; 6:38). Most importantly, the power of sin and Satan were finished. No longer would mankind have to suffer the “flaming arrows of the evil one” (Ephesians 6:16). By raising the “shield of faith” in the One who completed the work of redemption and salvation, we can, by faith, live as new creations in Christ. Jesus’ finished work on the cross was the beginning of new life for all who were once “dead in trespasses and sins” but who are now made “alive with Christ” (Ephesians 2:1, 5).

  7. falcon says:

    grindael,
    That was really a great post. I’m giving you five stars for it. You nailed it down and I rejoice that those who come here searching on their way out of Mormonism will find all they need right there.

    If FOF is the best that the LDS church has to offer to support their corrupt corporate religion and false prophets then all I can say is they are in trouble, which they are. There can’t be that many people like FOF in the world who would close themselves off to all reason and logic in favor of a fallacious story of a man with a magic rock.

  8. faithoffathers says:

    falcon-

    You miss the point. Jesus said AT THE LAST SUPPER, “I have finished the work though gavest me to do.”

    My point is that you guys insist that since Christ said “It is finished” on the cross, no further work in salvation is needed.

    But He also used those same words, “I have finished the work” before He even went to the cross.

    So you guys are clearly inserted some meaning into the text which is not warranted.

    In other words, if Christ had “finished the work” at the time of the last supper, what was the cross about? He used those words “I have finished the work” before He even went to the cross. So He used those words when there was still work to do. Right? So Christ saying the words, “it is finished” on the cross does not mean no work would ever be needed by anybody for the work of salvation.

    You guys jump all over based on what is needed at the moment. But you are anything but consistent.

    MJP- Please explain how exactly I am bound by an equivocal statement by a member of FAIR whose name I have never heard. Please. He offers an equivocal statement saying we don’t know either way as far as God being a sinner. How exactly does that help your argument?

    How is he somehow more representative of my faith than the statistically valid surveys that show those of your faith believe Christ was a sinner?

    To be honest- you come off as very whiny. Almost every statement is about how I have left you out in the dark and not responded as you hope and desire. I answer your questions. I am open to the possibility that I may not explain them perfectly, but I do try to answer your questions. But could it be that you don’t understand my answers? It sure seems like it from my perspective.

    I note you have offered nothing to support your assertion that members of our church believe Christ sinned. You cannot offer one statement from a member of the church suggesting Christ sinned.

    grindael- I misplaced one quotation mark in a quotation regarding Jerusalem. And it didn’t change the argument. You act like you have never done that and that my slip changes everything.

    Kind of symbolic, don’t you think?

  9. fifth monarchy man says:

    FOF said,

    You say,

    Archaeology and other types of evidences will never produce saving faith. But following the Spirit will.

    I say,

    There you go again trying to claim credit for your salvation.
    That is your whole problem as I see it .
    Following the Spirit does not produce saving faith. Saving faith is entirely a gift of God.

    quote:
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
    (Ephesians 2:8)

    end quote:

    You say,

    But that places you in the position of employing double standards in evaluating the Bible and Book of Mormon.

    I say,

    I’m sorry but this does not follow at all.

    For the Christian God provides the faith to believe historically and theological accurate writings that also completely cohere and correspond to each other

    and

    And the Mormon chooses to blindly follow a stand alone book that does not agree with the Bible or history.

    Can’t you see the difference?

    You say,

    You refer to my “amazingly blind faith.” So again, you are claiming I am naive and unaware of the text and evidences of the Book of Mormon?

    I say,

    I don’t know you personally so you are correct that I don’t know what evidence you are aware of.

    All I can say is that I have never met a Mormon that would be willing to drop the BOM if I could show him that it did not correspond with actual history or disagreed with God’s genuine revelation in the Bible.

    Maybe you are the first. What do you say. are you willing to put your testimony to the test?

    peace

  10. faithoffathers says:

    fifthmonarchyman,

    Do you think it might be just a little bit egocentric to claim to have a monopoly on “actual history” or “God’s genuine revelation in the Bible?”

    I am open and have always been open to data and evidence. I find very, very few critics will focus on data I provide- they will always, always point over the horizon to some other evidence they feel justifies ignoring what is right in front of them.

    It is a rarity to get a critic to truly engage data and follow it out without changing the subject.

    (You do understand that most of the Bible was at some point a “stand alone” revelation or book, don’t you? Consider the book of Genesis- the oldest manuscript dates to around 200 B.C., roughly 2,000 years after the most recent events in that book. And there is essentially no archaeological evidence to support any of it. Why accept it and reject the Book of Mormon?)

  11. Rick B says:

    FoF said

    We bicker back and forth about history and evidences. But I cannot get one critic to explain or summarize accurately and fairly the most basic of our doctrines. Like faith- no critic here will represent our doctrine on this correctly. Many years ago, I talked with one evangelical critic who summarized or repeated back to me what we believe about faith, works, grace, etc. That has been a long time ago. I have tried to provide long and detailed explanations here and provide analogies and metaphors on this topic. No critic will claim anything but that we believe we save ourselves and work our way to heaven. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I cannot get a critic to restate our doctrine correctly.

    FoF, This is a lie, As others have stated before, Your doctrine Changes so often we cannot tell what to share and what not to share with you. We share something and you guys claim it is wrong or taken out of context. So I posted all this before and will post it again, and it is from your church and leaders. Tell me if you agree with it or not. If you do, then I shared with you and am not getting it wrong, if you dont agree with it, then why should I trust you over your leaders? And if your leaders teach this stuff, I read it and share with LDS that this is what you believe, then how am I wrong when your leaders said it and I only repeat it?

    We claim Mormonism teaches Grace PLUS WORKS, People Like FoF claim we are wrong, yet this is what His church says.

    Read what after all we can do means.:

    ‘After all we can do’ includes extending our best effort. ‘After all we can do’ includes living His commandments. ‘After all we can do’ includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. ‘After all we can do’ means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving ‘succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor’ (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God’s children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) ‘After all we can do’ means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. (“After All We Can Do,” Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)” (“Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace,” LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)

    “President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one’s salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: ‘We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one’s being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: “For,” said this prophet, “we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'”(“Work out salvation with fear and trembling,” LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)

    “As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only “after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)

    “In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, ‘after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)

    “To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)

  12. MJP says:

    FoF,

    You are not paying attention. I am not saying Christ definitively sinned in your faith. I am saying it is a possibility according to your own theology and the logic that accompanies it. You want me to prove something I am not even arguing. However, I do in fact argue that it is a possibility under your theology.

    At 9:33 am today you asked me this: “MJP- you keep going on this Jesus sinned thing. Please provide one statement from informed LDS that Jesus could have sinned. You can’t.” I provided exactly that.

    You call me whiny, fine, and you say that you try to answer my assertions. Also fine. But to be honest, sincere effort does not matter much. Perhaps it is that you are not doing a good job of explaining. And not giving any support at all for your answers is also a possible reason.

    If all I gave was conclusory answers, you would/should call me out on it. But I have not given that. I have gone through and given detailed rationale for the possibility of Christ sinning. I have provided a quote from an informed Mormon on the subject stating he might have sinned. I also have never accused your faith of conclusively stating Christ sinned. To my knowledge, it has not said that. But it has opened the possibility of Christ sinning.

    Where I object to your position is that you state your church teaches Christ is certainly sinless. That does not seem to fit with logic, nor with what your church teaches, though. You seem to wash over the logic without addressing it, as if telling us to shut up about it will make it go away.

    This is a very paternalistic and arrogant thing to do. And frankly, if you merely provide a reasoned response giving some evidence more than “our church does not teach that” I would not keep harping on it. But, you have not given any more than that. I am certainly not simply going to believe your word on it.

    If you don’t want to engage on the topic, that is your choice. If you wish to call me whiny, fine, but understand that such name calling is not helpful to your argument, either.

    And God does want your belief, and that is all he wants. Can you merely give him that?

  13. fifth monarchy man says:

    FOF said,

    I am open and have always been open to data and evidence.

    I say,

    Cool,

    I guess I would next need to know what qualifies as evidence in your book.

    You say,

    I find very, very few critics will focus on data I provide.

    I say,

    I have lurked here on an off for months and have yet to hear you present any evidence beyond how the BOM makes you feel and how it supposedly improved your life.

    That has been my experience from basically all Mormons I have talked with. Every once in a while I will hear something like……

    X does not rule out the truth of the BOM so it must therefore be true.

    as if that is supposed to qualify as evidence

    You say

    (You do understand that most of the Bible was at some point a “stand alone” revelation or book, don’t you?

    I say,

    I’m sorry but revelation in never stand alone. God always provides things by which to test his revelation by. That is the sort of God he is.

    You say,

    Consider the book of Genesis- the oldest manuscript dates to around 200 B.C., roughly 2,000 years after the most recent events in that book. And there is essentially no archaeological evidence to support any of it. Why accept it and reject the Book of Mormon?)

    I say,

    Because Genesis is part of the larger grouping of Pentateuch which is in turn deeply connected the other books of the Bible and the extrabibical traditions of the Jewish nation and cultural context of the ancient world . It was also accepted as Scripture by the only person qualified to make a infallible determination on such things.

    The BOM one the other hand is connected to nothing beyond the fantastic claims of one individual with questionable integrity.

    Do you see the difference?

  14. grindael says:

    grindael- I misplaced one quotation mark in a quotation regarding Jerusalem. And it didn’t change the argument. You act like you have never done that and that my slip changes everything. Kind of symbolic, don’t you think?

    Misplaced a quotation mark? Really? I don’t think so, genius. Wow, FOF, you have a short memory. You actually said,

    Consider the fact that when the sons of Lehi went into the city of Jerusalem to get the brass plates from Laban and failed, they then “went down to the land of their inheritance.” (1 Nephi 3:22) That certainly implies the fact that their land of inheritance was not within the actual city of Jerusalem proper. Once they had gathered the precious things from their “land of inheritance,” they once again “went up again unto the city of Jerusalem.” (1 Nephi 3:23).

    Here is the actual verses from the Book of Mormon (v. 23) that you totally misquoted,

    22 And it came to pass that we went down to the land of our inheritance, and we did gather together our gold, and our silver, and our precious things. 23 And after we had gathered these things together, we went up again unto the house of Laban.

    Where are the words “unto the city of Jerusalem” to be found in verse 23? Nowhere. Now, you WANTED it to say that, to give your argument that they were outside of the city credence. But it doesn’t say that because Lehi lived IN the city.

    It wasn’t just a typo, you actually misquoted the Book of Mormon, and it wasn’t even close to what it said. And you misquoted it to favor your own argument. Now… If there is a new version out (could be for all I know) and it says this, I’ll be happy to apologize. Are you quoting from a new version of the Book of Mormon, FOF?

    Thought not.

    So, why do you keep lying over and over again FOF? Then you arrogantly claimed that the phrase “Great Spirit” only appears ONCE in the BOM. Of course, I showed that you were wrong again, it appears multiple times and in different Chapters of the Book.

    You have no credibility and can’t even admit when you are proven wrong. You know your Book of Mormon and what Mormon Doctrine is?

    Hardly.

    Now I’ve caught you in another lie.

  15. Rick B says:

    FoF,
    You said their is overwhelming evidence for the BoM, if that is true, then please provide it, since I have never seen it.

    I have been to Israel Once in my life, Me and my wife are going back this Nov into Dec, Then my Daughter will be going for a youth missions trip with our church in 2014.

    Have you been to any BoM lands? And if you claim something like, Mexico, South America or anything like that, provide hard evidence proving it is BoM lands. I meet Jews in Israel, I ate their food, I opened my Bible,It mentioned places like the Dead sea, and the Red sea, I saw them, it mentioned the Sea of Galilee, I took a boat across it. I toured the old city of Jerusalem and bought some spices and ate lots of food, I’m a Chef by trade, so food is my business.

    Can you say and prove this about the BoM?

    I went to a place called, the temple mount institute. They are ready to build the final and last temple that the Muslims wont allow. They have everything ready and can have it built in 3 months or less. The Bible predicts this. They know the in’s and out’s of Jewish History, and guess what? I asked them about the BoM and the people and places in it. They claim it is false and never existed.

    Now I think they would know, since the BoM mentions that some fictional BoM people lived 600 BC and were living in Jerusalem. Yet these scholars never heard of them and have zero evidence they ever existed. Then where is all the evidence for the massive battle of hill cumoruh? And why does the Battle field spot seem to keep moving?

    Laslty, I know you cannot speak for Shem, But he claimed I was wrong on some things, So I quoted him saying, The things I said are lies, and then I quoted your LDS prophets backing up what I said. so either he lied, or his church did, now he seems strangely silent and never said anything in reply to what I posted. My point being, all you LDS claim we dont know what were talking about, but then when we provide evidence, it still is somehow wrong. Funny how thats works.

  16. Rick B says:

    Hey Falcon,
    I really wanted to go see that movie you mentioned about JS and his magic underwear. I had 3 bucks, Not a JS 3 dollar bill mind you, and when I was calling about show times, I was told a mob destroyed the Movie theater, sound familiar? Man was I ever bummed. I was ready for those 3d glasses to show me JS in all his glory. I was thinking He might even have a gun battle at the end of the Movie, only in the Movie he survives and get caught up in a chariot into heaven and tells Jesus to move over. But I guess I will never know since I now cannot see the Movie.

  17. Mike R says:

    Jesus has always been God , or
    He progressed to become God . Which ?

    now I’m glad that you stated to Falcon that you maintain that Jesus was always God , because
    that is consistent with the Bible , but your leaders have taught that Jesus was not always God ,
    ( in fact they have also taught that your heavenly Father was not always God . )
    So you are correct and they are in serious error . That’s great . The Holy Spirit is ministering to
    you whether you think so or not . Our prayers are bearing fruit .

  18. fifth monarchy man says:

    Hey FOF,

    On the subject of what would qualify as evidence check this out

    http://www.antiquities.org.il/about_eng.asp?Modul_id=14

    I chose this story completely at random.
    This particular find was reported on just 10 days ago.

    quote:

    Most intriguing is the recent discovery of a ceramic bowl with a partially preserved inscription in ancient Hebrew. While not complete, the inscription presents us with the name of a seventh century BCE figure, which resembles other names known to us from both the Biblical and archaeological record and providing us with a connection to the people living in Jerusalem at the end of the First Temple period……………

    The most similar name to our inscription is Zechariah the son of Benaiah, the father of the Prophet Jahaziel. The name Zechariah the son of Benaiah appears in 2 Chronicles 20:14 where it states that Jahaziel, son of Zechariah, son of Benaiah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, prophesized before the Biblical King Jehoshaphat before the nation went off to war against the ancient kingdoms of Ammon and Moab.

    end quote:

    We see this sort of thing reported all the time, there are hundreds of similar examples .

    Now that you know what actual physical evidence looks like.

    Do you have anything remotely resembling that for the BOM?

    peace

  19. Silkworm says:

    johnsepistle said:
    …..that a majority of the membership are open to believing that the Father is a reformed sinner of nearly countless varieties.

    Can you please provide a reference or article or talk or something that says the majority of LDS members believe the Father is a reformed sinner of nearly countless varieties?
    And can anyone please provide a reference or article or talk or something that says LDS leaders teach that God/Father is a sinner and that Jesus is a sinner?
    Thank You.

    Of course the Jews in Israel will say the Book Of Mormon is false. The Jews also believe Jesus Christ is the false Messiah. The Jews believe Jesus Christ was just an ordinary man who preached; but it is interesting that the Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a Prophet. So the argument that the Jews do not believe the Book of Mormon is no argument.

  20. Rick B says:

    Silkworm, Say what you want about the Jews saying the BoM is false, But can you then provide the evidence we/I asked for proving the BoM lands and places exist? I know you cannot and will not because you always do drive by’s and never really answer questions, you just babble and run. Your know for that here and it has been pointed out countless times. So your not exactly a source of truth. But you can still provide it if you have it, I’m just not expecting anything from you.

  21. falcon says:

    FOF,
    Is Mike right?
    Have you now moved to the theological position that Jesus has always been God?
    That’s an incredible confession because it means you have moved away from the SLC LDS Mormon sect that you belong to. It appears that you are now some where between your particular Mormon sect and closer to the Community of Christ of Church of Christ Mormon groups. Perhaps you are establishing your own form of Mormon theology which isn’t all that unusual as Mormons move out of the LDS camp.
    It happened with Sandra and Gerald Tanner. They had gotten to the point where it came down to the BoM which they still believed in having jettisoned everything else. Alas, within a period of time they came to understand that the BoM wasn’t as billed and they gave up on that too.

    So here’s a question getting back to the matter of credibility as you hold that the only people that know anything about Mormonism are Mormons. Certainly you would agree that the Tanners, specifically Sandra now that Gerald is deceased, are experts in Mormonism?
    Your position that only a Mormon can know and understand Mormonism is pretty lame, wouldn’t you agree?
    Because what you’ve been applying is that a person can’t know Mormon history, doctrine or practices unless they read the BoM. That would mean that studying Mormon history, reading the Book of Commandments, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Journal of Discourses would yield no useful information; only reading the BoM qualifies.
    Do you see how dumb a position like that is? It doesn’t even pass the common sense test.
    Is Mormon history in the BoM? Is Mormon doctrine in the BoM or is it more readily found in the D&C? Get it?
    Besides, you wouldn’t give me your love, admiration, validation and recognize me as having credibility if I read the BoM anyway. You’d do a Lucy and pull the football away just as I was going to kick it.
    But my offer still stands. Ask me some questions about the BoM and see if I can answer them. That would be kind of fun.

    Anyway I’m glad you have embraced the position that Jesus has always been God. I don’t know what you’re going to do with all the other Mormon gods since they were all men who became gods. That would include you Mormon HF who also was a man.
    I rejoice this morning that you have made progress even within this thread. You went from Jesus becoming a god to Him always being God.

  22. falcon says:

    FOF,
    ………..and I gave you very specific information regarding what Jesus meant when he said His work is completed and then later when He said, “It is finished”. There was a list of things He completed and finished along with Biblical references. Of course you sort of do that TBM reply that none of it counts or that nothing was proven. That’s a real lame Mormon throw away line when they know they are backed in a corner and have been defeated in their shallow arguments and know nothing about the topic.
    You need to get serious and apply some actual Biblical systematic study using solid exegesis if you ever hope to move beyond a basic “shut your eyes and point” to a verse in the Bible approach.

  23. fifth monarchy man says:

    silk said,

    Of course the Jews in Israel will say the Book Of Mormon is false. The Jews also believe Jesus Christ is the false Messiah. The Jews believe Jesus Christ was just an ordinary man who preached; but it is interesting that the Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a Prophet. So the argument that the Jews do not believe the Book of Mormon is no argument.

    I say,

    You have got to be kidding. I never cease to be amazed at the straws Mormons will grasp at.

    The Jews deny the message of the NT and the validity of some of the miracles but they don’t deny that the people and places mentioned in the NT existed.

    Are you really so deluded to think that disagreeing with the message of Paul or saying that Jesus was just a man is the same thing as denying that Jesus or Paul or Herod or Jerusalem or Ephesus even existed?

    wow

    peace

  24. grindael says:

    FOF said,

    You can “paint” it as you like, but I accept all of our history, all of the leaders- past and present, all of our bruises and mistakes- all of it. I see in all of it something that is divine, beautiful, majestic, and that will outlast and outgrow every one of the church’s resentful critics and naysayers. I can make sense of it. Anybody who can reason, empathize, imagine, think, and trust can see it. It is the source of everything good in my life

    I got to thinking about this quote. (Misapplied as it is) that Mormonism will “outlast and outgrow” every one of their critics, and it could not be more wrong. You will never outlast them all, because they are an integral part of Mormon History. For example,

    Ezra Booth – one of the first critics of Jo Smith. He is even in Mormon “scripture” (D&C 52). When anyone looks him up, they will be able to read all of his letters which document Jo’s shenanigans in the early Church.
    D.P.Hurlbut – Original author of “Mormonism Unvailed”. That is never going to go away.

    William Law – in Mormon “scripture” and his Expositor will always be read, because it is an integral part of Mormon History.
    David Whitmer – Book of Mormon witness but great testimony about Jo as a fallen prophet.
    John Whitmer – One of the eight witness, but same thing.
    John Corrill – Early Mormon Hierarchy and Historian. Never going away.
    Reed Peck – early convert and his 1839 manuscript will always be there which documents the rise of the Danites.

    There are a lot more, but let’s go to the twentieth century…

    The Reed Smoot Hearings. Documents Joseph F. Smith’s perjury. That record will always be there and is never going away.
    The Tanners – Shadow or Reality will always be a part of the Church, since the Tanners unveiled many documents that were kept hidden by the church and their actions pressured the church into releasing documents they would not have, and inspired a whole movement of more “open” history that the church is still trying to control.
    Mike Quinn – excommunicated by the Church and the September Six and all of their writings will never go away. The church itself made sure of that.
    Dan Vogel – His Early Mormon Document series is now being used by Mormon Historians. (I even saw Royal Skousen reference them). They are a resource that is only going to grow.

    These are only a few off the top of my head. I’m sure there are many more. Once again, this only shows you that FOF does not understand Mormon History, and that however he might feel about the Church, the critics are never going to just “fade away” or be “outlasted” by the Church. It ain’t ever gonna happen. Some of them helped bring down the Smith dynasty in the RLDS Church (among other things) and it is only a matter of time before the SLC Branch goes the same way. And I’ll stand by those words, and they will be here long after I’m gone.

  25. PaleRider says:

    Faithoffathers-your reply to my comment on the finished work of God on the cross was “Everything in the gospel and God’s plan is centered and focused upon the atonement of Christ. But I certainly would not say that “God’s work was completed on the cross.” Do you not think that God is “at work” in the world today? The atonement is certainly complete and sure. But there is much work and effort to fully complete “God’s work.”
    PR-I agree that God’s plan is centered on the Atonement of God himself. Grindael cited John 17:1-4 which succinctly encapsulates His crowning work. Yes, I do believe that God is at work in the world today as expressed in the same verses, specifically vs. 2-3 which reads in part, “…that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him…and this is eternal life, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.” So, I also believe that his “atonement is certainly complete and sure” and that He is gathering his children in accordance with that great work. The junction where we part is when Joseph places himself into the equation.
    FOF-The Book of Mormon certainly does contain many of the “plain and precious” truths that have been lost. But nowhere does it claim to contain every truth or doctrine.
    PR-“The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings, with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.” (Introduction to the Book of Mormon, 1st paragraph Ed. 1996)
    I think you would agree that words have meaning so if the BoM contains the fulness of the Gospel, along with the Bible, why all the additives? How can something be added to the “fulness of the Gospel” and God’s completed work? Could you provide an one example from the BoM of one of these “plain and precious truths” that would be included within the fulness of the gospel?

  26. grindael says:

    Here is a great example of the strange, disconnected logic of FOF that has to be dealt with constantly.

    PaleRider wrote,

    God finished his work on the cross.

    Then FOF writes,

    Everything in the gospel and God’s plan is centered and focused upon the atonement of Christ. But I certainly would not say that “God’s work was completed on the cross.” Do you not think that God is “at work” in the world today? The atonement is certainly complete and sure. But there is much work and effort to fully complete “God’s work.”

    I then made my comment to FOF:

    I just have to comment on this, because it shows a level of duplicity that seldom graces this forum. Here is what Jesus said, just to show how FOF misconstrues what PR meant,

    “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.” John 17:1-4

    What was the “work” that Jesus completed? He gave people the knowledge of God and how to attain eternal life, and then took upon Himself the sins of the world ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY. How do we gain eternal life? By believing on his name. (with lenghty explanation why)

    FOF then replies,

    Grindael- you are quoting the passage of scripture I sometimes use when critics make this argument- that our salvation was completed on the cross. But please note the context of the passage- Jesus says AT THE LAST SUPPER- “I have completed the work Thou gavest Me to do.” So I suppose, using your line of logic, the work of Christ was completed at the time of the last supper? Aww. This argument is exposed for what it really is. False.

    I then gave a long reply back, which showed that FOF doesn’t understand the work of Christ, and which included,

    Of course it [his work] was [completed at that time]. Jesus said it was. Or don’t you believe that Christ knew the future? He was not going to back out of what was to come. For Him, it was completed, because he gave them the means to achieve eternal life. He taught it to them. That was his work given to Him by the Father. Or was Jesus lying then? That is why you deny Christ. How silly of you not to see this.

    Notice how FOF just ignores the quote by Jesus. Ignores it. He sticks to his own faulty logic but does not address what Christ ACTUALLY SAID. Why not? Who knows? I guess that he feels that Christ was like Jo Smith, and lied to his own followers?

    But you see what FOF also did? You see it? Here was the original quote by PaleRider,

    God finished his work on the cross.

    Here is my quote,

    I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.”. John 17:1-4

    Here is FOF’s answer to that,

    But I certainly would not say that “God’s work was completed on the cross.”

    He is denying what Jesus told his apostles. FOF then changes the whole meaning of what PaleRider meant to this,

    Do you not think that God is “at work” in the world today? The atonement is certainly complete and sure. But there is much work and effort to fully complete “God’s work.”

    If there was, then why did Jesus say that he had competed his work, and then said “it is finished” on the cross? Falcon understood this,

    So when Jesus said that He had completed the work then the cross was about what? When he hung on the cross He said “It is finished.” The Greek words literally mean, “The debt is paid.” It is an accounting term. Nothing can be added to a debt that has been paid in full measure. All that is left is to accept the payment which as Christians we do by faith. It would sort of help you FOF if you had any clue at all at how to approach Biblical interpretation. Mormons are typical of most cultists grabbing a verse here and there and not relating it to anything else that’s in the Bible.

    FOF then replies (not to me, but to Falcon – he only picks out my comment about his misquoting of the BOM to comment on out of that whole long explanation):

    You miss the point. Jesus said AT THE LAST SUPPER, “I have finished the work though gavest me to do.” My point is that you guys insist that since Christ said “It is finished” on the cross, no further work in salvation is needed. But He also used those same words, “I have finished the work” before He even went to the cross. So you guys are clearly inserted some meaning into the text which is not warranted. In other words, if Christ had “finished the work” at the time of the last supper, what was the cross about? He used those words “I have finished the work” before He even went to the cross. So He used those words when there was still work to do. Right? So Christ saying the words, “it is finished” on the cross does not mean no work would ever be needed by anybody for the work of salvation.

    This could not be more wrong. No one needs to do any “work” for their salvation. All they need to do is believe Jesus Christ. Here is what FOF gets out of this exchange:

    My point is that you guys insist that since Christ said “It is finished” on the cross, no further work in salvation is needed. But He also used those same words, “I have finished the work” before He even went to the cross. So you guys are clearly inserted some meaning into the text which is not warranted. You guys jump all over based on what is needed at the moment. But you are anything but consistent.

    He doesn’t get it. God (Christ) said to the Father, “I have finished the work you gave me to do.” Again, FOF, was Christ lying?

    What doesn’t FOF understand about this simple statement? FOF can’t grasp the larger meaning of what Christ meant. He was a living sacrifice. But the sacrifice is meaningless without any reason for Christ to give it. Christ gave to the people the meaning of his upcoming sacrifice BEFORE he made the sacrifice of his body. I was trying to explain to FOF that it was more than just the sacrifice on the cross. It didn’t take away from PaleRiders statement, it added CONTEXT to it.

    That was his “work”. [To teach the meaning of His Sacrifice – testify to the truth]. The rest was just submission to events that he had already predicted and told them about. (john 18:4 “Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”) That was why he was born:

    Luke 19:10: “for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
    Matthew 18:11-12 “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.”
    John 12:46: “I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.”
    John 18:38 “Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    Now read the context:

    After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

    “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Nothing was “inserted” into the text. Nothing. FOF just wants it to mean what he says. But it doesn’t mean that. Notice that FOF totally ignored my answer to what the ramifications of God’s work in the flesh meant. He totally ignores what I quoted. He then denigrates me for quoting pages of material to prove what I say. (As he does with Mormon Doctrine). He never replies to those long explanations. He dismisses them out of hand.

    God’s work is finished. He said so. He testified to the truth. It is now up to us (the world) to accept it. It is a free gift. THIS is what turned me away from atheism (for 25 years) after I left Mormonism. That right there. I read the words of Christ and I believed them. I saw how simple it was.

    This thread shows you what it is like to be trapped in the Mormon Bubble of Denial Folks. Pray for FOF. He needs it.

    2 Cor. 4:3: “But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”

  27. falcon says:

    PaleRider,
    I believe you will be presented the falcon’s “catch of the day” award for your above post. Here’s your quote:
    “I think you would agree that words have meaning so if the BoM contains the fulness of the Gospel, along with the Bible, why all the additives? How can something be added to the “fulness of the Gospel” and God’s completed work?”

    FOF,
    You will be getting falcon’s “kumbaya” award for your heart felt and emotional testimony of what Mormonism and the LDS church mean to you. As far as I’m concerned you may as well have been singing “Oh I want to be an Oscar Meyer wiener, that is what I truly want to be……” because you’ve got about as much chance of becoming a wiener as you do a god.
    I am amazed at how people can be so taken in emotionally by something that is absolutely false. And it doesn’t matter if they get buried in evidence that disproves that what they are devoted to, love, cherish and adore, is totally, absolutely and without question false; they still groove on it. But then again there are people who are invested emotionally in all sorts of things that are false including those who think that Elvis is still alive and working as a hairdresser in Detroit.

  28. grindael says:

    To illustrate how the Mormon Church takes the focus off of Christ and puts it on Jo Smith, I present this speech by “apostle” M. Russell Ballard. He begins by saying,

    My brothers and sisters, on July 19th of this year the Sons of Utah Pioneers placed at This Is the Place Heritage Park in Salt Lake City a statue of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his successor, President Brigham Young. This statue, entitled Eyes Westward, shows these two great prophets with a map of the western territories.

    He then quotes a bogus “prophecy” of Jo Smith that he said was made in 1842 which I have totally debunked here. Ballard then says,

    Now, my brothers and sisters, my purpose in this brief review of Joseph’s prophetic vision of the destiny of this Church and its literal fulfillment through the decades is to remind us of this simple truth:

    “The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.

    “For God doth not walk in crooked paths, … neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.

    “Remember … that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men” (D&C 3:1–3).

    But Jesus finished his work (as he himself declared) long ago. But Ballard continues,

    The little Church that started in 1830 with just a handful of members has now grown to more than 13 million Latter-day Saints in many different nations around the world, and we are well on our way to penetrating every continent, visiting every clime, sweeping every country, and sounding in every ear. This is God’s work, and God’s work will not be frustrated. But there is still much to be done before the Great Jehovah can announce that the work is done.

    This is not “God’s work”. God’s “work” was to testify to the truth. He did so. It has nothing to do with Jo Smith (thank you PaleRider).

    Who are you going to believe, Ballard,

    This is a great time to live, brothers and sisters, and it is up to us to carry on the rich tradition of devoted commitment that has been the hallmark of previous generations of Latter-day Saints. This is not a time for the spiritually faint of heart. We cannot afford to be superficially righteous. Our testimonies must run deep, with spiritual roots firmly embedded in the rock of revelation. And we must continue to move the work forward as a covenanted, consecrated people, with faith in every footstep, “till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

    Or Jesus (who Mormons say is Jehovah) who already said it,

    “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.” John 17:1-4

    Jesus said he had already completed his work. So why do you believe in the “arm of flesh” Mormons?

  29. falcon says:

    It’s really not finished, the work that is, for the Mormon male who is hoping against hope that if he just does enough, he can catapult himself into the Celestial Kingdom dragging his family behind him. He will then have arrived but needless to say, the work is still not done. There are planets and solar systems to arrange and organize, there are spirit babies to sire, there are the people on his planets to deal with; there is redemptive work to try and figure out because the people on his planets are surely going to sin. The work of a god is never done.
    Besides that there will probably be meetings with the other gods, those in the newly minted gods up line. It is a multi-level marketing scheme.
    No it’s not done, this work that these Mormon gods must do. Is it any wonder that when you consider the number of people on the rolls of the LDS church (cooked books of course), the number of actual active members and then out of that the ones that dedicate themselves to the work of becoming a god, it’s truly amazing that there are millions if not billions of these gods.

  30. Mike R says:

    Falcon, with all the God making going on in the Mormon world may sincere LDS take time to
    look at Mormoni 8:18 ( along with 7:22 : Psalms 90:2 etc ) and then ask themselves why have
    their leaders drifted ( apostasy ) into teaching about all Gods and Goddesses , and sinful
    Mormon males becoming Almighty Gods peopling other worlds/planets with their offspring .
    What a shame . The precious Mormon people deserve leaders that are more reliable guides in
    spiritual truth. May they dismiss their latter days prophets —–Matt 24:11 — because God has
    a better way for the Mormon people .

  31. faithoffathers says:

    Palerider,

    Thanks for the response. This is my answer to your question about the “fullness of the gospel.”

    Not all truth is of the same value. You agree? The truth that is of greatest value is the atoning work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon explains that work and testifies of it more powerfully than any other book in the world, including the Bible. I could not agree more with Joseph Smith who said that “a man will be nearer to God by reading the [the Book of Mormon] than any other book.

    In addition to testifying of Christ and His atonement, the Book of Mormon explains very effectively the context and extent of God’s work in the last days just prior to the Second coming of Christ. It provides the context for everything.

    As far as doctrines found in the Book of Mormon that could be considered “plain and precious,” consider the following:

    1. Pre-earth life- Alma 13
    2. Spirit world- Alma 42
    3. Melchizedek Priesthood Alma 13
    4. Necessity of Baptism for those who are accountable- 2 Nephi 31; Moroni 8 explains the corrupt nature of baptism of children.
    5. Probably the most extensively discussed of these is the role of America and Israel in the latter-day work of the Lord. I contend that a person does not understand Israel’s role and mission who does not know the Book of Mormon inside and out.
    6. The context and meaning of Isaiah’s prophesies and words. – same as with Israel above.

    There are plenty more, but these were a few off the top of my head.

  32. jaxi says:

    Everytime I read over the discussions with FoF I get taken back to my conversations with my last Stake President when he said something to the effect of, “this all comes down to what do you like better. Do you want to be a creation or a god in embryo. What is the best explanation for who you are?” For LDS like FoF, who have been given the facts, but remain in denial, constantly performing mental gymnastics, that is what it comes down to. What story do you like better? So many LDS, reject the truth because they are hooked on the story. The problem is that its a fantasy, always has been. Jospeh Smith was known as a story teller before the Book of Mormon and continued to be one after. But one day reality and truth have to be dealt with. Christ is not our spirit brother, who was busy going through his own transformation to eternal godhood. He is and was eternally God . He lowered himself to our corrupted human form to redeem us, to turn us back to God, that we may be as God intended before our own sinful wills got in the way. Christ, becoming human, had no other motivation except His love for us. My heart truly is saddened when I read how some LDS cling to Mormonism, when it is so obviously false. They have chosen a smaller God to make themselves bigger. In doing so they miss out on coming closer to comprehending the awesomeness of God. Pride is at the heart of the LDS faith. I get it, I am not immune to pride. At night I pray, “God, help me to surrender myself to you, let me truly say, ‘Thy will be done.'” I love you LDS people, but please surrender yourselves to the truth.

  33. falcon says:

    Jaxi,
    I hate to have to present the falcon’s “catch of the day” so early but you are definitely in the running for today’s award. You did, after all, post at 12:07 AM when I was fast asleep. I figure that like my wife you either have trouble sleeping or perhaps you had a cleaning fit in the middle of the night.

    Anyway the nominated line from your post is (drum roll please):
    “So many LDS, reject the truth because they are hooked on the story.”
    You will also be nominated for today’s falcon “bingo” award.

    You captured the essence of the psychological/emotional hook that drives belief in Mormonism……pick your flavor. Although I think the CoC, for example, are less enamored with Smith than the fact that they are honest in acknowledging their history. When I was talking to a member of CoC he sounded like me. This particular person had moved so far beyond Smith and the BoM that he told me his congregation doesn’t even use the (BoM) in church. These folks get it and you have to kind of admire them for not trying to cover it up or make excuses for Smith.

    Now we take a guy like FOF who recently gave his heart rendering composition of “What the LDS church, Mormonism and Joseph Smith means to me”. It was right out of the description of a fast and testimony meeting I’ve heard (former Mormons talk about).
    When Christians get up and testify it’s all about the Lord Jesus Christ. I would suggest that that might be the place for a Mormon to start and forget about how much they love JS, the BoM, the LDS church and the current prophet.
    I think that the writers of the Broadway play “The Book of Mormon” captured the FOFs with their song with the line “Because I’m a Mormon and a Mormon just believes.”

  34. fifth monarchy man says:

    FOF,

    I really appreciate you compiling a list of doctrines that are derived from the BOM and I would encourage you to continue to do that. I think such a list would provide yet another great way for you to test the BOM in a Biblical way(1st John 4:6).

    What you could do is look at each individual doctrine and see if it contradicts the Bible as it would have been understood by the original readers or if it compliments the Bible or if the Bible is silent in regard to that particular doctrine.

    Take the Melchizedek Priesthood as described in Alma 13 for example.

    I think it obvious that a fair reading of Hebrews chapter 7 is not describing an office that is obtained by many mortal men by their “exceeding faith and repentance”. Instead it is talking about one special individual that obtains his office “by the power of an indestructible life” .

    You could do the same for all the doctrines on you list I’d be very curious to see what you come up with. What do you think, are you willing to test your testimony by the word of God?

    Remember you are testing the BOM so you must look at the Bible as it has been preserved.
    To use the JS translation would be to assume what is in question.

    peace

  35. Rick B says:

    Fof said their is tons of evidence proving the bom true. We listed some proving the bible. Silkworm even said the evidence exists. So please provide it, you said it so back it upm

  36. falcon says:

    Rick,
    Remember, the BoM is true only as far as it is translated correctly. Am I not right on this?
    How many changes have there been in the BoM and how many of them have directly changed the meaning of the original as it was penned and the doctrine that was expressed.

    For example:
    1 Nephi 11:21
    “And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the [. . . . ] Eternal Father!…”
    changed to:
    “And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!…”

    That’s sort of a big change I’d say.
    And:

    1 Nephi 11:32
    “…And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, [. . . . ] the Everlasting God, was judged of the world…”
    “…And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world…”

    1 Nephi 13:40
    “…and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is [. . . . ] the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world…”
    “…and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the World…”

    So I’d say that Joe started out with his magic rock doing his interpretation of the golden plates that weren’t even present when he had his face shoved in his hat, then what happened?
    I would suggest that since the magic rock is in the vault at the LDS HQ in SLC they see if it still has its original mojo.

  37. falcon says:

    I just had to link to this. The Wilder family are among my favs when it comes to their testimony of leaving Mormonism. It’s about eight minutes long and it’s on the CBN website. She appeared there about three days ago. It takes a bit before the video pops up and starts.
    Way to go Wilder family. You left Mormonism and found the Lord Jesus Christ……..or should I say you found the Lord Jesus Christ and left Mormonism.
    And think of it. Lynn was a BYU professor and her son Micah found the Lord while on his mission for the LDS church. Go figure!

    http://www.cbn.com/tv/2622981139001

  38. grindael says:

    The “High Priesthood” of the Book of Mormon has little to do with the Melchizedek of Mormondom today. In fact,

    Alma 13 says that people are “called and prepared” for the priesthood “from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works” (v. 3). That is, before people were born, the deity’s omniscience allowed him to perceive what the faith and acts of individuals would be before these individuals actually existed in mortality. Those whom he foresaw to be faithful—or a select number of these—he designated to become priests in their mortal lives. This faith and these good works are therefore not, as contemporary Mormon theology might suggest, things done in a premortal existence. They are acts in mortality, which God previewed. The mortal context of these good works are indicated by the context of 13:10-12. (Brent Metcalfe, New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, p.189)

    This idea was jettisoned by Smith when he reinvented the priesthood in 1834 and rewrote that (and the restoration by angels) into the 1835 D&C. Therefore, there was no “pre-earth life” mentioned in Alma 13, nor the Melchizedek Priesthood as it is known in the church today. These were both later inventions by Smith. Lyman Wight actually ordained Smith to the “High Priesthood” in June of 1831. This is well documented. Lyman Wight was chosen because he said he had had a vision of Christ. And the Latter-day role of America? Give me a break. Jo predicted (wrongly) the downfall of America before the 20th century and so did Parley P. Pratt, who said that if his “prophecy” did not come true than the BOM was false. We all know what happened. (Not what Mormon “prophets” predicted). We are the America that Mormon “prophets” (both after Smith and from the BOM) NEVER foresaw.

  39. PaleRider says:

    faithoffathers
    I agree that the work of God as outlined in his word is the truth; He is the ultimate truth and reality. Yet, we diverge again when it comes to the claims made by those who proclaim that there is ‘something’ deficient from revealed truth in the Bible.
    FOF-The Book of Mormon explains that work and testifies of it more powerfully than any other book in the world, including the Bible. I could not agree more with Joseph Smith who said that “a man will be nearer to God by reading the [the Book of Mormon] than any other book.
    PR-I disagree with this statement. For example, there is more ‘powerful’ theology packed in just the “Roman Road” then the entire BoM; the verses that comprise the plan of salvation- Romans 3:10, 23; Romans 5:8, 12; Romans 6:23; Romans 10:9-10, 13 will bring a man nearer to God then the narratives presented in the BoM.
    Also, thank you for actually providing a list of things considered plain and precious but since the claim is about the “fulness of the gospel” which by definition is- the state of being full, why don’t we find mention of the endowment, or clear explanation of the division and functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood (not just cursory references to the priesthood of God and mention of Melchizedek as outlined in the Bible), or proxy work on behalf of the dead, or authorization for early restoration practices of polygamy, polyandry, ect. Polygamy is prohibited in the BoM specifically Jacob 2:27-28. The endowment (anointing, 1st and 2nd) is central to modern Mormons, why no mention of these essential exalting ordinances within the most correct book on earth?
    With respect to the words of Isaiah, which are found in the BoM to be ~99% verbatim from the KJV, his prophesies are to be understood within the context of God himself being born, executed and resurrected unto new life, making a propitiation for all of those who hear His voice.

  40. falcon says:

    I’ll piggy back on PaleRiders comment from FOF when he said:

    “The Book of Mormon explains that work and testifies of it more powerfully than any other book in the world, including the Bible.”

    I’ve watched Micah Wilder and Lynn Wilder several times testify about how they came to leave Mormonism. In-a-nutshell, they began to read the Bible, specifically the NT with the innocence of a child. Lynn says that she came to the point where she either had to choose what the Bible said or choose Mormonism. You see, the messages are competing messages. They won’t, can’t and don’t correlate.
    I would venture to guess that our former Mormon posters here, of whom there are many, came to the same conclusion. The “restored” gospel of Mormonism isn’t first century Christianity. The idea that the original gospel was lost and needed to be restored is a total farce. We know what the original gospel is. It’s contained in the NT.
    Mormons can’t face the fact that the Bible wasn’t corrupted, that some third and fourth century councils made up a new gospel, and that there’s nothing in the historical record of the Christian Church or its traditions that even have a wiff of Mormonism.
    So in-other-words, Mormons have to ignore the facts in order to preserve their own religious desires and emotional needs.
    Let me say this, the Bible has the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is there that Christ is revealed and the plan of salvation presented clearly and without ambiguity.
    There’s a reason why so many are leaving the LDS church and finding new life in Jesus Christ. There’s a reason why two early versions of Mormonism that survive today reject the SLC LDS church. It’s because the SLC sect has left God and created a god of their own choosing. This LDS god and the gospel preached by these spiritual nomads will not result in a good end.

    Praise to the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning, the end and the only pathway to the Father and eternal life.

  41. Rick B says:

    FoF said

    a man will be nearer to God by reading the [the Book of Mormon] than any other book.

    Well FoF, some of us are still waiting for you to provide the evidence you claimed existed proving the BoM.

    Now I would like to add to the quote you mentioned. If you remove all the verses from the BoM that are word for word from the Bible, then with whats left in the BoM, tell me exactly what will get me nearer to God? Whats left in the BoM that explains things in such a way that it will get me closer to God, that is not in the Bible?

    These types of things are evidence against the BoM, and it does not help that you LDS cannot or will not answer our questions.

  42. falcon says:

    Yea, you can get closer to God by reading the BoM than any other book……………….and you can get closer to the ocean by living in North Dakota than California!

    An endorsement of the BoM by a truly dedicated and diluted member of the legion of Joseph Smith.

    The Bible should be banned by the LDS church because it is truly @nti Mormon literature. We can see why Smith and co. had to come up with the twin whoopers about the gospel disappearing from the earth after the death of the apostles and that the Bible can’t be trusted because it was corrupted.
    ……..and then to believe that Smith had all manner of spirit beings appearing to him to lend credibility to his false twin premises is all that was needed to suck the naive into the fantasy.

    Does Thomas Monson sneak down to the vault occasionally, grab Smith’s magic rock, throw it in a hat and stare at it to get inspiration? The rock must have some supernatural qualities and it would be a shame to let it just sit there collecting dust. If Monson were to do that he’d probably that the LDS church messed-up big time by stopping the practice of polygamy. That practice, after all, is a necessity for hitting the big time in the Celestial Kingdom pantheon of gods.

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