Honesty is the best policy. Aesop knew it. In the 6th century B.C. he chose that to be the moral of his fable, “Mercury and the Woodcutter.”
George Washington knew it. He said in his Farewell Address, “I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy.”
The writer of Proverbs 12 knew it, teaching, “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are His delight” (verse 22).
Even Mormon blogger Jana Riess knows it, as she made clear in her recent post titled “Mormons Who Doubt.”
In her blog post, Dr. Riess discusses the way the Mormon Church has historically handled doubting and questioning members. Speaking of an essay she particularly likes, she writes,
“One of my favorite pieces in that collection is about how Mormonism deals, often badly, with doubt. Mormons, [Boyd] Peterson writes, have been taught that doubt is an enemy to be avoided rather than a journey to be embraced.”
In the essay highlighted by Dr. Riess, Boyd Peterson suggests that the Mormon Church needs to “decriminalize doubt.” He writes,
“Doubt is not a moral weakness; it does not inexorably lead to agnosticism or atheism. It does not inevitably destroy faith.”
Nevertheless, as Dr. Riess points out, some Mormon leaders have taught the exact opposite. At the April 2009 General Conference, LDS Seventy Kevin Pearson taught about the “Six Destructive Ds.”
“First is doubt. Doubt is not a principle of the gospel. It does not come from the Light of Christ or the influence of the Holy Ghost. Doubt is a negative emotion related to fear. It comes from a lack of confidence in one’s self or abilities. It is inconsistent with our divine identity as children of God.
“Doubt leads to discouragement…
“Discouragement leads to distraction…”
And so on, through “lack of diligence” and “disobedience” until arriving at “disbelief…the state of having chosen to harden one’s heart.” Mr. Peterson said,
“These Six Destructive Ds—doubt, discouragement, distraction, lack of diligence, disobedience, and disbelief—all erode and destroy our faith. We can choose to avoid and overcome them…
“In a household of faith, there is no need to fear or doubt. Choose to live by faith and not fear.”
Mr. Pearson’s ideas find support in early Mormon apostle Heber C. Kimball who said,
“I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.” (Deseret News, Apr. 2, 1856, p. 26, quoted in “Chapter 27: Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 2007, 315–26)
In more recent times, Twelfth Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball explained,
“Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 462)
For the sake of argument, Dr. Riess supposes that this sort of progression is true (i.e., doubt leads to disbelief and to people leaving the Mormon Church). She writes,
“If leaving is people’s most honest response to doubt then I say it is the Church’s fault and not the defectors’ own. Let me say that again. It is the Church’s fault, because of the zero-sum game it has too often made of religious truth. We set up a house of cards in which we tell our young people that either ALL of it is true or NONE of it is true, and then we are astonished when they depart because they have found an ounce of adulteration in the total purity they have been indoctrinated to expect.
“To avoid this result we hide historical and theological realities, a strategy which backfires more often than not.”
Again quoting Boyd Peterson,
“…we should not be afraid of the truth. Often we Mormons seem scared that if the truth somehow got out there—the truth about our history, our evolving theology, our fallible leaders—people would leave the Church in droves. But what tends to happen is just the opposite. We hide the truth, and then, when they discover it on their own, people feel like they have been lied to, betrayed.”
People don’t merely feel like they’ve been lied to and betrayed; they have been. Perhaps the official Mormon institution does not know that honesty is the best policy–even though the LDS manual Gospel Principles is clear on the topic:
“When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.” (Gospel Principles, 2009, 181)
Therefore, Dr. Riess believes the answer to the problem of betrayal leading to apostasy is honesty. She advocates Mormons begin addressing these controversial issues in a “supportive environment.” And while she thinks the Mormon Church is taking small steps in that direction, to me it appears that such a movement toward honesty, transparency and supportiveness has not yet begun in earnest.
For example, Dr. Riess writes that she is saddened by the on-going stories she hears of how doubters and questioners are treated by Church leaders,
“…church leaders who shut down their questions, or who take away their callings or temple recommends just for asking questions, or who don’t allow doubting fathers to baptize their children. Just today on Facebook I learned that a Mormon man and his wife were turned away from the temple because their stake president, unbeknownst to them, had canceled their recommends.”
Another incident currently in the news is the story of Mormon author Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., who has been excommunicated for his portrayal of Mormon history. The Salt Lake Tribune reports,
“In his book, ‘Passing the Heavenly Gift,’ Snuffer used the faith’s signature scripture, the Book of Mormon, and founder Joseph Smith’s ‘divine revelations’ to analyze LDS history from Smith’s death in 1844 to the present. He concludes that every Mormon prophet, starting with Brigham Young, caved to social, political and legal pressures to accommodate mainstream American society — starting with giving up polygamy, then becoming more corporate and eventually yielding to ‘social progressives’ by softening language on same-sex attraction.
“‘Today, marketing the institution has become more important to Mormon success,’ Snuffer writes on the book’s back cover, ‘than preserving the original religious content.’”
Another example is provided by Christian (former Mormon) author Lynn Wilder, whose excellent book, Unveiling Grace, has just hit the market. She writes in an email,
“Someone we have been working with was threatened by her bishop and stake president for posting that the book ‘Unveiling Grace’ was out. They visited her within 2 days and gave her 2 days to decide to resign or she would be excommunicated. She and hubby sent letters by registered mail and both the bishop and stake president refused the letters and had them returned to sender…”
Dr. Riess notes, “Such behavior is driven by fear.” But truth has nothing to fear; Jesus said that the truth sets us free (John 8:32).
That is my hope and prayer for all Mormons. Honesty is the best policy. It does not ultimately lead to the destruction predicted by Mormon authorities – rather, it leads to the incomparable freedom Jesus promises all who come to Him.
I don’t know why the LDS folks aren’t just up-front about their history and beliefs. Their program is to hide things especially from those they have identified as prospects to recruit to Mormonism.
I have referenced several times on this blog my trip to Nauvoo earlier this summer. When I went to the visitors center for the Community of Christ, the young man I talked to told me that they, the CoC, acknowledges their history. When we started discussing Mormonism he sounded like me or any one of us Christians on this blog. The SLC LDS sect really can’t “reveal” their history and their doctrine to their prospects.
Mormonism as practiced by the SLC LDS is really tough to defend so they’ve found other means more to their liking. Here’s a video by John Dehlin of Mormon Stories fame about why people leave the LDS church. John can’t seem to make up his mind whether he’s in or out of the LDS church but as of late he’s back in. His points are from the point of view of a believing Mormon. I get a kick out of the fact that he lists all of this stuff that the average Mormon doesn’t know and then (Dehlin) concludes: “……but that’s no reason to leave the church”. A big question mark forms in the bubble over my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
Doubt…
A very important topic. From what I can tell, Mormons really don’t like it. It leaves them uncomfortable. Not just a little uncomfortable, but very uncomfortable. Its as if they will be, and are, looked down upon by those who are sure of their testimony. They don’t seem to be encouraged to ask questions when they doubt.
Christians doubt, too, and sure, it makes us uncomfortable. However, when we doubt, we are encouraged to ask questions– ask questions of ourselves, of our church, of the Bible, of God. If we cannot find sufficient answers, what we do is up to us, but we are encouraged to seek them. We are not denied positions within the church for having a doubt. We are not looked down on when we don’t get something, or something doesn’t seem right.
Rather, our doubt is viewed as a journey. We view doubt as a chance to come closer to God. Doubt is a normal process in every believer, I think. At some point, we will encounter something that makes us think twice about what we believe and why. My experience is that doubt absolutely brings us closer to God. In our doubt, we more often than not find ourselves at fault, but sometimes, there is something wrong with something or someone else. Discovering all of this helps us understand ourselves and our God more.
Now, can doubt be destructive? Sure. But as a general rule, it is a normal and ultimately positive action. Rather than dismiss doubters as weak or as a problem, it is better to merely empathize with them and help them understand it is normal. Each person, you and I, must deal with doubt in our own ways, and so we must treat all doubters with the same respect we would ask when we doubt. After all, Christ told us to treat others the way we want to be treated.
When I first started questioning the BoA I was told I was just losing my faith. Faith in what? Never was my faith in Jesus brought up. It was faith in the church, faith in Joseph Smith, faith in the restoration, faith in MormonISM. Where was Jesus in any of that? Not to be found. The only time Jesus was mentioned from the starting of my questioning to the confirmation letter that my name and records were removed, was the pamphlet from the first presidency telling me to come back and once again feast with the good shepherd. As if my leaving Mormonism somehow has taken away my Savior. My doubt brought me to the true and living Christ of the Bible. How can that be a negative thing? If Mormons are Christians then they shouldn’t care if people leave their “church” as long as they have a relationship with Jesus right?
As I was on my journey out of the mormon religion and to Christ I was listening to a sermon by Tim Keller and in that sermon he said something that to me was very powerful. He said “Faith is not an absence of thinking…Doubt is the absence of thinking”. This was something I had been doing my whole life as a mormon – when I had doubts I just stopped thinking and I believed that I was showing great faith by doing this. I now see that God wants us to think for ourselves, to look for the evidence that His word IS truth, to test His word – especially when we have doubts. Something else that I read “Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation”. My faith and trust in now completely in Christ Jesus and His works. Mormons I would say to you “Cast your deadly doing down, down at Jesus’ feet; Stand in Him, in Him alone, gloriously complete”. – James Proctor
Kate, what you said can help a lot of Mormons who may be in fear or confusion over leaving
their church . They need to know that leaving the Mormon church is not turning against God .
A complete relationship with God is available outside of the Mormon church , and He is
ready to receive any Mormon who walks away from the religion of Joseph , and come straight
to Jesus . It’s all about Jesus .
I’m sure there are plenty of Mormons who just sort of float out of the LDS fold without having a crisis of faith or even doubt what they’ve been told. Mormonism just didn’t “take” and they’re sick of the program. They want to have a life. I would guess their are plenty of people who can see through the maze and realize that it’s just a lot of hypocritical nonsense. In-other-words these are folks who never had a testimony to begin with. Mormons easily dismiss this group because of their lack of commitment and testimony.
The ones who bug them are the ones who did the digging, the research, the hard work and couldn’t square the circle. These are the enemies of the “one true church” because they have a solid rationale for tubing the religious system of Mormonism and either ended up as agnostics, atheists or Christians.
Now out of this bunch it’s the former Mormons who are now Christians that serve the biggest threat to the LDS machine. These folks have found Christ and through Him, eternal life. These will testify that it’s not through the LDS church that a person finds eternal life. Eternal life comes through faith in Jesus, they will confess, and not some useless works of a dead religious system.
Those deep into Mormonism are in love with “the church”. They can’t imagine leaving and “giving up so much”. It’s only when they find Jesus and a personal relationship with Him that they see how the religious system they were trapped in can’t compare with knowing Jesus.
mapleleaf, thanks for sharing . It’s a blessing to hear of Mormons who are discovering that they
had been detoured by imitation apostles , but are finding solely in the person of Jesus what they
were looking for , and needed , all along .
There is so much to talk about here!
I think it is important to recognize at least two uses of the word “doubt” – 1) is the questioning if something/or our previous understanding of the thing is true and 2) the actual skepticism that something/someone is not true. It seems obvious that the LDS church certainly doesn’t want their members doing #2 doubting – certainly about the church and the leadership. But it is important to recognize that this type of doubting is relatively rare, unless instances of #1 doubting have born bad fruit consistently. And this brings up a second point, as said above by Boyd Peterson – there is nothing morally wrong with doubting (or at least #1 doubting); this can be understood by considering what kinds of things bring up #1 doubt.
First, #1 doubt or questioning whether something or our previous understanding of something is true, cannot really be avoided. It is an instant reaction to a realization of inconsistency. Whether we receive new information that challenges what we believe to be true or whether we observe something act differently than it claims to act, there is the raw observation and the immediate recognition of inconsistency, contradiction, and thus realization that one’s previous understanding or the thing/person’s previous claims may not be true. There is nothing moral here, just the immediate life of the mind. To suppress this type of doubting is not completely possible and is actually unethical and immoral because it is the very supression of our God-given humanity.
There is also nothing wrong with working out these spontaneous questions. Even the LDS leadership indicates this when they say:
– the BoM says to “ponder these things” – there would be no need to ponder or pray if the things did not seem possibly false
– Joseph Smith supposedly “doubted” the Christianity around him and prayed in the grove
– Orson Pratt said, “Convince us of our errors of Doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God and we will ever be grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings.” – The Seer, p. 15
– Elder Marlin K. Jensen said, “Our history is especially critical, because in a sense, we rise or fall with our history,” he said. “If those early beginning stories that Joseph Smith told us are true, then we are the only true church as we contend. If they’re not true, then we don’t have what we purport to have.” Mormon Times, Nov 19, 2009, found in Deseret News 19 Nov. 2009.
-Dr. Hugh Nibley said, “The Book of Mormon can and should be tested. It invites criticism.” An Approach to The Book of Mormon, 1957, p. 13.
[thanks to mormonthink for easy reference]
and my favorite,
Gordon B. Hinckley said, “I would like to say that this cause is either true or false. Either this is the kingdom of God, or it is a sham and a delusion. Either Joseph talked with the Father and the Son, or he did not. If he did not, we are engaged in blasphemy” (Conference Reports, October 1961, 116).
[thanks to MRM for this one]
The LDS church is right to denounce skepticism for skepticism’s or rebelliousness’s sake. But they seem to conflate #1 doubting with #2 doubting. Or, worse, they know that #1 doubting, as it concerns Mormonism, is too often going to lead to what they see as #2 doubting. But all of this is wrong, because #1 doubting doesn’t lead to just #2 doubting. #1 thoughts, research, and resolutions lead to a supported, justified position. They do not lead to an irrational, rebellious skepticism like #2 doubting.
There’s other things I could say, but I’ll stop for now with this thought:
Over the decades and decades of the history of the LDS church, should not the LDS leadership have noticed that, far from chastising the Man with the sick child for his “unbelief,” Jesus, instead, loved, healed, and gave him real reason to believe? (Mark 9:24)
Doubt is a good thing to have. without it you will be hosed all your life! Ask questions !
The problem for Mormons is that there is so much to doubt. Should I make a list?
Christians of my flavor don’t have much to doubt because we’re centered on Jesus and the only question is, is He God? That’s about it for me.
I suppose I could mull over Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, Elijah going up to heaven in a whirlwind, the parting of the water by Moses, the creation time table; but I don’t really get hung-up on it.
My focus is on Jesus Christ and Him crucified, period!
Mormons are stuck on whether or not Joseph Smith was a real prophet of God and the package of what he promoted. To me it’s a no-brainer when it comes to that guy.
What does a Mormon do when they discover that the witnesses to the Gold Plates didn’t actually see them with physical eyes? Or they find out that Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter and used his magic rock in his hat to decipher these plates when the plates weren’t even present. I could go on.
I was talking to a guy down in Carthage and he was telling about a young Mormon couple who had come out of the jail having had a “spiritual” experience there. He mentioned that Smith tried to shoot his way out when he was killed and they said, “Oh the prophet would never do that!” OK so what do they do when they find out he did do just that?
I sat in the upper room, right by the window Smith bailed out and the Mormons there had no idea why Smith had ended up in jail. They thought he was there because he was being persecuted. What do these people do when they begin to hear the real story?
Too many of these things and it isn’t doubt any more.
Mike
“A complete relationship with God is available outside of the Mormon church ”
It is also available inside the Mormon church
falcon
Is there a problem with him having a pistol and using it when he is being shot at ? what does that have to do with anything ?
The thing about JS is it may be a crazy story to believe, but the stories in the bible are just about on the same level. I think it says in there that a donkey spoke and some dude was eaten by a whale. To someone who has never heard of these things they would most certainly call it BS
Jarron,
Here’s the problem with Smith and his pistol. Technically if you’re in jail you shouldn’t have a pistol. That being said, he was defending himself, OK. Are Mormons told about this or are they told that he was in jail because of unjust persecution. Do you know why Smith was in jail. Why do the tour guides avoid telling the whole story. See Bill McKeever’s presentation on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM
Is a relationship with God possible within the LDS church? Well why don’t you define who the Mormon god is. My understanding is that the Mormon god is one of millions or perhaps billions of gods. The Mormon god used to be a man but became a god through the Mormon system.
The Mormon god doesn’t exist.
But is it possible to have a relationship with God and be a member of the Mormon church. I suppose so but the Mormon religious system isn’t consistent with who God is so I don’t think a person who came to a knowledge of who God is would stay in the LDS church.
There are some things in the Bible that are hard to believe so therefore the BoM is true? I think that’s faulty logic but it is Mormon logic which explains a lot.
Jarron, that was my way of reminding Mormons that they don’t need to fear leaving the Mormon
church since a complete relationship with God is available without it . I use ” complete
relationship ” as a saving relationship . Then you said that this relationship is also available
inside the Mormon church . So I take it that you’re saying this relationship is available both
inside and outside of your church . If you feel this is true then could you please provide me
with some examples from your leaders where they have taught such ? I’m curious about this .
This is asubject close to my heart so I hope no one minds a comment thats a little bit of a journal entry. When I did my research in Mormon history as an LDS member, I wouldn’t even say I was doubting. I was questioning. I kept my questioning to myself and never shared anything that I found. It wasnt secret or anything, I just felt like I was the only one worried about finding the answers. I was on some kind of personal mission to cure myself of a problem that I wasnt even sure of what it was. There was a problem. I was sure it was me. At that point, I was still a completely believing, and fully active member of the LDS Church.
I still remember the day that I really, truly let myself doubt Mormonism. I had questions before, concerns, uncomfortable feelings, but I never really doubted, I was a believer. But the answers I was uncovering made me feel so heavy, strained; like I was trying to hold water in my hands without letting any leak through my fingers. My mind was like a puzzle with twists and turns of information that I was trying to link together to get this full picture that seemed distorted and fuzzy at best. As soon as I made one thing “feel right” it would cause problems and conflicts with other doctrine.
Then I remember one day, just saying the words, “What if it isn’t true.” My first real doubt; where I truly allowed myself to look at things from the otherside. But it’s not the words that make that day so vivid in my mind. I will never forget where and how I was sitting, nor the time of day because of the immediate feeling that followed. I felt complete and utter relief; this wonderful freedom. The burden that was lifted and whatever I felt I was holding so tightly onto I finally just let go. I remember being so thrilled and happy. I ran out to my husband to tell him the good news, the LDS Church wasn’t true. He didnt take that so well at the time, nor did any other of my family members. Thank God he did his own research and was set free as well.
So the first time I ever really doubted was great, followed by a lot of fear because of the question “what now?” I like doubt. I doubted my way into Christianity.
I read a blog by Abbot Tryphon. I’d like to quote him because I love to see that Christains allow for doubt, and by my interpretation of this quote doubt is even encouraged.
“The Opposite of Faith is Unbelief, not Doubt
Lack of doubt causes people to hold to beliefs which may not be enough to sustain them in this present world, for they, in their fear of doubt, fail to go beyond the external form of the Christian faith. In their fear, they may simply go through the motions of religion, making their faith no more than the adherence to a set of beliefs and practices that are not truly their own.
Doubting your faith can be the beginning of deepening your faith, for it forces you to look beyond outward ritual, and blind belief. Doubt is not unbelief, but quite possibly the beginning of true faith.
Love in Christ,
Abbot Tryphon”
I love that quote because that’s how I felt as a Mormon, that my faith had no depth. I was studying so hard to try to deepen it but the answers I found were empty. When I found Christianity I couldn’t believe how beautiful it was, how deep it goes. Mormonism for me did provide an external happiness. But inside there was no healing power. I was putting band aids on internal wounds and convincing myself I was okay. Finding Jesus Christ, my God, was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I shared a dream on another topic awhile ago that I feel I was blessed with that happened a year before I left the LDS Church. It was a dream where I was given an answer to a prayer about God’s nature but I didn’t understand what it meant until the day that I actually let myself doubt Mormonism. I didn’t share the whole dream because it had many parts. But another part of the dream was that I was trying to teach a class of kids how to walk on water. I could kind of stand but I kept hitting my head on the ceiling. I could not stand all the way up. I was hunched, uncomfortable, and struggling. At the time I interpreted that as there is something wrong with me. I was the reason that I couldn’t do it. I need to try harder. But can trying harder to stand change the fact that I had a CIELING in my way? Looking back, I get it. I was trying so hard, but I was boxed in. I remember saying to my husband after leaving the LDS Church and finding Christ, “the world seems so much bigger, God is so much bigger.” All this peace, hope, and faith that I feel started because of doubt.
Falcon,
Why smith was in jail to my knowledge is because he ordered that the expositor was to be destroyed. I don’t know why they do not tell this on the tours, I have never been. But I personally like that he was fighting for his life til the very end.
In response to the bible vs bom thing, I was just trying to point out that even when something sounds crazy, it could still be true.
Mike,
I do believe that non Mormons have complete relationships with God. How ignorant would I have to be to think that because someone has different beliefs they cannot know God?
Jarron21
But I personally like that he was fighting for his life til the very end.
I say,
I wonder what Jesus would say about that? Never-mind I already know
quote:
But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(Matthew 5:39)
and
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
(Luke 17:33)
and
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
(Revelation 12:11)
end quote:
peace
I wonder what an actual man chosen by God would do when faced with a similar situation
never-mind I already know
quote:
And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
(Acts 20:22-24)
and
as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
(Philippians 1:20-23)
end quote:
peace
Jarron,
You have a very interesting form of Mormonism. I find it curious that you belong to a religious sect that proclaims that they are the “one true church” and that they have a system that will result in men becoming gods. The God of the SLC LDS sect is not the same God as that of Christianity. So how could I, for example, have a relationship with God if I’m not a Mormon according to the beliefs of the LDS church? If the SLC LDS god doesn’t exist, someone cannot have a relationship with him or them since your sect acknowledges a pantheon of gods in the universe all with their own planetary systems to rule.
You’re going against your own prophets. I don’t believe that you can have a relationship with God if you don’t acknowledge who He is and what His plan of salvation is. This is not a case of any old god will do as long as the person is sincere.
God has brought you here so that you might come to know Him and in knowing Him be granted eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ. Might you find Him and the peace that comes with the assurance that only He can grant.
I will pray for you.
Jarron,
What parts of BoM do you think sound crazy? Does any of this sound crazy?
The Jaredites (Book of Ether) came to the new world at the time of the tower of Babel. They were instructed to build eight barges in which to sail to America. This journey took three hundred and forty four days. After years of occupying the land and numbering in the millions, their civilization was destroyed by war. The last survivor, Coriantumr, was found by the Mulekites sometime before 200 B.C.
The Mulekites came to America from Jerusalem in 586 B.C. They were led by the last living son of Zedekiah, Mulek. Although they lived in America during the same period as the Nephites and Lamanites, they did not encounter them until around 200 B.C. They then became amalgamated with the Nephites.
The two main groups in the Book of Mormon are the Nephites and Lamanites. The story tells of a family group led by an Israelite prophet named Lehi. He is warned by God to flee Jerusalem at 600 B.C. He and his family make their way to the southern part of Arabia where they build a ship to sail across the Pacific Ocean to America. Two of his sons, Nephi and Laman struggle for leadership. This leads to the division of the group into two warring factions, the Nephites (usually the good guys) and Lamanites (usually the bad guys).
The last battle between the two groups, in 421 AD, wipes out almost all of the Nephites. Moroni, the last surviving Nephite, buries the records of his civilization in the hill Cumorah. Hundreds of years later, Joseph Smith is directed to the spot by Moroni (some records say Nephi), now a resurrected being who has become an angel.
Doesn’t it all sound a little crazy? Wouldn’t someone who is a Mormon have pause to doubt that what is summarized above is true? Can someone doubt or even disbelieve this is an actual account of events and still be a member of the SLC LDS Mormon sect? How about doubting that Joseph Smith was a real prophet of God, that the SLC LDS church is the one true church and that the current LDS prophet is really a prophet?
As long as someone keeps their doubts to themselves and pays their 10% to the LDS church can they be a member in good standing?
Posted on one of my LDS friend’s pages a few days ago. “Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will.” it’s sad to me how doubt is made out to be such an ugly word.
Jarron,
You said that you believe Non Mormons have a complete relationship with God? What a strange statement. If that’s the case than why are you here? If Non Mormons (which could also mean non Christians as well) have a complete relationship than nothing is needed. So why spend one second on this site if everyone is “whole.” Isn’t that what complete means, whole, nothing lacking?
I think you just didnt think through the wording in your comment. Im assuming that you likely meant that non Mormons can feel God too. I don’t think anyone here would disagree that the true God can find someone anywhere, that people of all faiths can feel God. So yes, I think Mormons can know something of God. I think I did when I was Mormon. I think His image was very distorted by lies, but I did feel Him. But my relationship with God didn’t become more full until leaving Mormonism because untruths were getting in the way of really knowing Him.
Christians would say a Mormon’s knowledge of God is inaccurate and therefore incomplete, most particularly involving the nature of God and how God saves His people. LDS would say the same thing. Can you see how this is a problem?
Speaking of doubt, Thomas Ferguson is a case study on the topic:
“From all that we can learn, Thomas Stuart Ferguson was a dedicated believer in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon at the time he founded the New World Archaeology Foundation. He really believed that archaeology would prove the Book of Mormon.”
After years of trying, Thomas Ferguson could find no archaeological evidence for the BoM. He concluded:
“…Mormonism is probably the best conceived myth-fraternity to which one can belong…. Joseph Smith tried so hard he put himself out on a limb with the Book of Abraham, and also with the Book of Mormon. He can be refuted – but why bother… It would be like wiping out placebos in medicine, and that would make no sense when they do lots of good….
“Why not say the right things and keep your membership in the great fraternity, enjoying the good things you like and discarding the ones you can’t swallow (and keeping your mouth shut)? Hypocritical? Maybe…. thousands of members have done, and are doing, what I suggest you consider doing. Silence is golden – etc…. So why try to be heroic and fight the myths – the Mormon one or any other that does more good than ill?
“Perhaps you and I have been spoofed by Joseph Smith. Now that we have the inside dope – why not spoof a little back and stay aboard? Please consider this letter confidential – for obvious reasons. I want to stay aboard the good ship, Mormonism – for various reasons that I think valid. First, several of my dearly loved family members want desperately to believe and do believe it and they each need it. It does them far more good than harm. Belonging, with my eyes wide open is actually fun, less expensive than formerly, and no strain at all…. I never get up and bear testimony… You might give my suggestions a trial run – and if you find you have to burn all the bridges between yourselves and the Church, then go ahead and ask for excommunication. (The day will probably come – but it is far off – when the leadership of the Church will change the excommunication rules and delete as grounds non-belief in the 2 books mentioned and in Joseph Smith as a prophet etc.., but if you wait for that day, you probably will have died. It is a long way off – tithing would drop too much for one thing….
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no69.htm
fifth monarchy man,
So you are telling me that if You, your brother, and some of your best friends were being attacked by 200 men, you would just sit there ? Yeah ok, whatever you say. But remember even Moses killed a man in defense of someone else. yeah I wonder what Jesus would say if your sibling’s life was in danger and you just sat there and let it happen ? c’mon get real.
Falcon,
Do you think that We believe that we (mormons) will be the only ones going to heaven ? Nope.
You talk about the plan of salvation, the christian version of the plan of salvation does not even make sense. Why did God decide to create man ? thats a simple question so you should be able to give me a simple answer.
As far as us not having the same God, you can tell me that all day but I will never believe such an ignorant statement. Anyone who prays to God, regardless of their religion, is talking to the same God.
Jaxi,
Everyone can have a relationship with God, that is a personal matter. No church or other person can take that away from someone.
Thanks for sharing, Jaxi.
That’s a beautiful story, and I am so happy you experienced it. I particularly like this paragraph:
“I love that quote because that’s how I felt as a Mormon, that my faith had no depth. I was studying so hard to try to deepen it but the answers I found were empty. When I found Christianity I couldn’t believe how beautiful it was, how deep it goes. Mormonism for me did provide an external happiness. But inside there was no healing power. I was putting band aids on internal wounds and convincing myself I was okay. Finding Jesus Christ, my God, was the best thing that ever happened to me.”
Finding Jesus is beautiful and deep. And its shocking how simple His message is. I hope and pray more people come to realize this truth. I hope they put aside everything that distracts them and that they focus on Christ.
Jesus is the answer, and the way.
God Bless.
Jarron21, you said , ” I do believe that non-Mormons have complete relationships with God.”
Something tells me that you are not tracking with what I have said about this . If what you are
saying is your own opinion then that’s one thing but if you are saying that your leaders teach
that anyone can have a saving relationship with God without becoming Mormons then I have
to wonder if you’ve ever read their teachings . Care to explain a bit further ?
Jarron21.
When you said, anyone who prays to God, regardless of the religion is praying to God. You gotta wake up and read your bible. Jesus said, your of your father the devil. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter heaven. What about the bible speaking about false gods and Jesus saying he is the only way? Islam denys the God of the bible and so do jw’s. As do many other religions. Better back the beliefe up from the bible, but we both know you cannot.
Rick,
Wake up and read my Bible?
So someone who is born into islam and never has the chance to read the bible I guess that person is just sol huh? If that is the only thing that person has ever known are you saying God does not here their prayers? wake up and realize God loves all his children and hears them.
Mike R.
Everyone will be judged according to their knowledge. we are not all on the same playing field. That is why I believe That non-mormons can have relationships with God. It is more of my own personal belief. I believe God is fair
Is anyone going to answer My question ?
You talk about the plan of salvation, the christian version of the plan of salvation does not even make sense. Why did God decide to create man ? thats a simple question so you should be able to give me a simple answer.
Romans 1: 18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Jarron21. My last reply as with this one are from my phone while I’m at work, so they will be simple and short.
We are all God’s creation, but we are not all God’s children. The bible says some people have the devil as there father and he is a liar and people who lie will not enter heaven.
Also the bible says, only those who call out and recive Jesus as lorf and savior can be called children of God. The bible also says some of us our enemies of god and are apointed to face eternal damnation.
Now show me chapter and verse that says, we are all children of God. You cannot do it since it is not in the bible.
Rick B
The problem I am having with your explanation is that millions of people have never heard of, and will never hear of God or Jesus. So according to what you are saying they cannot be saved, they are not children of God. How do you explain this ? If God is fair and just this cannot be the answer on the subject. tell me how that is even logical
And is anyone going to answer my question on my previous post ?
Spartacus,
I thought your remarks were good in general.
The generalizations here a so transparent. You guys have some serious issues in the way you see LDS.
You might read or listen to Elder Holland’s last conference talk on the topic of doubt. Once again, you guys are painting a caricature of LDS and the church’s leaders. We very much encourage investigation, study, and asking questions. But using an intellectual cover to rebel against authority is completely different. And I think that is what Spartacus was alluding to.
By the way, those former members of the church who rail against the church and complain that they never knew or understood X,Y,Z need to take responsibility for their own lives and their failures in studying the gospel. It does become tiresome to read so many “testimonials” from former members who all say the same thing and exude the welfare mentality and dependence upon others for being spoon fed everything. There is so much material to study on any given topic, and so many forms of study. I don’t think there is any excuse for a person not knowing something. Any person who makes it a serious personal matter to study the gospel will be familiar with all of the issues which the critics harp on. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.
falcon- by the way, Thomas Furgeson died a full believer in the Book of Mormon and the restored gospel. Thought you might want to know that.
Jarron21.
You complain no one is answering you, yet you won’t answer me. I showed you, the bible says not everyone is a child of God, not everyone will be saved. Yet why won’t you respond to what I said and since you feel we all are children of God, then show me in the bible where it says this.
FoF,
“By the way, those former members of the church who rail against the church and complain that they never knew or understood X,Y,Z need to take responsibility for their own lives and their failures in studying the gospel. It does become tiresome to read so many “testimonials” from former members who all say the same thing and exude the welfare mentality and dependence upon others for being spoon fed everything. There is so much material to study on any given topic, and so many forms of study. I don’t think there is any excuse for a person not knowing something. Any person who makes it a serious personal matter to study the gospel will be familiar with all of the issues which the critics harp on. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.”
Who are you even referring to? Who are these dependent people? Who are these people on here that failed to study the gospel? That is why these former members are here because they DID study, take responsibility for their lives, and they refused to be spoonfed Mormon nonsense.
And for your information, people didn’t know stuff because they were given false information from people that they trusted. Not knowing something out of carelessness is different from thinking you know something that you don’t really know. As an LDS seminary student and a BYU graduate who took many honors religion classes I expected that I was learning everything. The reason I am ex LDS is because I took my own personal studies beyond the classes that I took and realized LDS avoid and whitewash a lot. You seem to be implying that many people here left because they didnt know things, period. The reason they left is because they didnt know things, studied themselves (often because almost all LDS classes are lacking any substance), and decided they didn’t believe what they were studying. The last part is essential to understand. It’s not “I’m so sad I didn’t know and no one told me.” it’s “Wow, I don’t believe this and I can’t for the life of me figure out how anyone else can either because it is so demonstratably false.”
Jaxi-
The story is the same in almost every case- a person leaves the church in their late 20s, 30s, or 40s because they discover Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or they discover that the text of the Book of Abraham is not found on the extant Joseph Smith papyri, etc. They feel “betrayed” and “lied to.” I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this pathetic story. (And I have heard that from plenty of people here).
The discovery these people experience usually occurs when they find things out from sources that have their own spin and bias (any source does have bias). But because the person didn’t do their own study while a member, they feel like the church lied to them. It is childish. The folks I am talking about have simply change the source from which they are being spoon fed. While it used to be the church, it is now the critics of the church. There is consistency is the superficial nature of their understanding- either as a member and later as a critic. We see it here in spades.
Jarron21
You said this.
“The problem I am having with your explanation is that millions of people have never heard of, and will never hear of God or Jesus. So according to what you are saying they cannot be saved, they are not children of God. How do you explain this ? If God is fair and just this cannot be the answer on the subject. tell me how that is even logical
And is anyone going to answer my question on my previous post ?”
Scripture makes it clear that the evidence for God is all around us so there can be no excuse for saying we have no knowledge of Him.
Those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ still have a God given conscience although not an enlightened one, the society in which they live also has a moral code, they will be judged on how they have lived their lives according to their conscience & moral code.
Rick B is not a Mormon so he, like all Christians, does not believe we are children of God in the same way that a Mormon would believe it. Mormons consider themselves to have always been children of God, conceived after the flesh.
We however are ‘adopted’ children of God, we became Gods ‘spiritual’ children when we accepted Christ as our saviour.
Romans 8:14-17
Finally,
God created mankind for His own Glory; why did the Mormon god create man, was it because he’s just an exalted man & like us, procreates simply because he can?
FoF,
Ok, I’ll grant maybe there are some people that leave because of the situation you describe. however, you making a stereotype leaves out the people that never looked at information from an outside sources. Many only used LDS and primary sources. Many people on this site are like that. I did all my research as a member. No one influenced me but me. You seem to always need an excuse on why people leave. Last time it was that they weren’t reading the Book of Mormon at the time of their leaving. Now it’s that they were corrupted by LDS Church critics. Do you leave any room for people that leave to do their own research, use their own brains and come their own conclusions that the LDS Church is false, while being an active Book of Mormon reading, praying member? Beacause I would describe myself as such at the time. Ragging on a particular type of person that leaves the LDS Church does little for the conversation and doesn’t really help anyone. Im not sure how your response would help those that you feel are so childish and pathetic. What would be the point of such comments? It doesn’t seem to do much more than serve as an insulting stereotype.
FOF,
“The discovery these people experience usually occurs when they find things out from sources that have their own spin and bias (any source does have bias). But because the person didn’t do their own study while a member, they feel like the church lied to them. It is childish.”
Thanks for the laugh today 🙂 Want to know how I found out Joseph Smith was a polygamist? My Grandmother gave my dad a 2 volume, huge, hard backed history of our family beginning in 1776. Genealogy from 1776 to my dad’s generation. Awesome to be sure. The first book was all about my family’s history with the LDS Church. Imagine my shock when I was reading along and it starts talking about polygamy and who was married to whom. You can hardly call this book put together by devout, faithful Mormons “their own spin.” My own Mother didn’t even know Joseph Smith was a polygamist until we were given this book. You want to know why? Because we were taught AT CHURCH that it started with Brigham Young and the move West and all those darn widows. We were lied to. Please tell me how we are supposed to do our own study of Joseph Smith’s polygamy if we don’t know it’s there???
Maybe instead of judging thousands for leaving because they didn’t know these things you should be putting the blame where it really should lie. Your church. We should all know about these things from our leaders, church classes, parents, etc. What about converts? If your missionaries would educate them about Mormonism and stop pushing them to be baptized 20 minutes after knocking on the door, oh wait, then your church wouldn’t have any converts would they? It’s your church’s fault members don’t know this stuff. It wasn’t until the Internet that it became so available to us all.
One more thing, it’s really scary to look at anything not church approved when you are LDS. That was pounded into my head for years by church leaders! Only look at these manuals we give you, read the Bible just know that it isn’t translated correctly, oh and my favorite…. “When the prophet speaks the thinking has been done.”
Your church is dishonest. It lies. It whitewashes. So please ask yourself why most members are unaware of church doctrines and history.
Here is FOF broad-stroking everyone who leaves Mormonism as having gotten their information from sources that have their own spin and bias, and that we see it here in spades. What rubbish. I got my information directly from the words of Mormon Authorities themselves, particularly Brigham Young, as have most who leave the church. FOF has nothing (as usual) to back up his highly deranged claims.
Then we have FOF spouting his usual blather about “superficial nature of understanding” when he himself can’t quote the BOM that he’s supposedly read hundreds of times correctly, can’t give any references to what he talks about, and then quotes people that he really doesn’t understand and hasn’t read to make a point that even he himself can’t understand. This is they guy who is telling us that we have a “superficial” understanding of Mormonism.
Ha, ha! I told you FOF, you should be a comedian. Really, if you weren’t so pathetic, you would be truly funny. I think you could really exploit your ignorance of Mormonism on the Big Stage. You know, a kind of woe is me, I’m so stupid kind of thing… Kind of like Jeff Foxworthy but with a Mormon twist. I think TBM’s would eat that up. You certainly would have a ready made audience there, because frankly, you aren’t making a dent in this one.
Notice Folks, that FOF just quietly leaves the threads that he’s been totally thrashed on, to start the cycle all over again. Thanks, FOF for leaving this record for future humanity and those Mormon Lurkers who will read about your epic ignorance for generations to come.
Please stay and keep commenting. You are the PERFECT representative of what Mormonism does to the intellect.
What I find even more sad than Mormons who aren’t aware of this stuff, is Mormons who are and continue in the lie. One has to wonder why. I understand and really feel for those who stay because they are afraid of the shunning, losing their whole family, or just can’t come to terms with their whole life being a lie. Please tell us what keeps you in this lie FOF. How do you justify or dismiss what you have learned?
Are we? Here is “Apostle” Holland, from that speech,
Holland, a supposed “special witness of Jesus Christ”, “prophet, seer & revelator”, learned more about Christ’s divinity from Jo Smith than from Christ himself? Christ, the greatest of all prophets. The one that Holland is supposed to be a special witness to. This is Jo Smith worship, pure and simple. We don’t have to paint a caricature of these men, they do so themselves.
I guess Holland never read Oliver Cowdery’s original charge to those who would deign to become apostles of Jesus Christ,
Wow, this is the same guy who said he knew nothing about how Jo got the Book of Abraham, yet his greatest teacher about the divinity of Christ is a dead so called prophet. Prophet? Seer? Revelator? Hardly, and according to Oliver Cowdery not a real apostle either.
Kate
Just a confirmation of what you said concerning polygamy. Like you my Ex wife believed, indeed insisted to me that polygamy was instituted by Brigham young for the same reasons you mentioned in your post. She now realises that the church lied, not just about that, but about many things. What kind of Church is it that has to practice deception in order to retain its membership?
FofF
I really don’t understand why you say that it’s the members fault if they don’t research these things, talk about having your cake & eating it. How can it be the fault of the members when the leadership actively discourages any kind of research that has not been endorsed by them? When I attempted to show My Ex proof that she had been lied to she flatly refused to read the information I provided. She told me that I was Anti-Mormon. Of course it’s impossible to convince anyone with that kind of mindset that you’re not anti anything, you’re just pro-truth.
By your reasoning then, the members are guilty if they don’t carry out research & guilty of disobeying the leadership if they do carry out some independent research, either way, the LDS can never be in the wrong even when all the evidence shows them to be.
I don’t know about anyone else but it fair makes my head spin
I just find it terribly arrogant that someone might call another pathetic for daring to question aspects of one’s faith. How does anyone know what sources and what mindset someone has when they decide to question their faith? Its pretty darn offensive, if you ask me, that someone could have such disdain for someone with sincere questions and seeks answers for them wherever they can find the answers.
MJP,
This is all that FOF has. He can’t and won’t provide evidence. He has comment malfunctions when asked to provide it. Instead of giving us the answers we seek, he instead says that,
But we are not asking FOF what HE believes, but what his CHURCH TEACHES. It is not about what FOF BELIEVES. We tell him what the Bible teaches. He doesn’t seem to get this. What he says, contradicts what his leaders teach. When confronted with this, FOF will whine, and then lash out at us because we will simply not believe or give credence to his opinions about what he thinks Mormon leaders teach that he never quotes to back up what he is saying. He is stuck in a bubble. Nothing seems to be able to penetrate it.
After listening to this for a year now, I’m simply not buying into his phony spiels any longer. When he does try to present evidence, like from the Book of Mormon, he misquotes it, all the while bragging about how many times he’s read it. The quotes he gives from Biblical scholars show that he hasn’t read any of their works either, but simply finds convenient snippets that seem to support what he “believes” his leaders are teaching or that contradict the Bible and support Jo Smith’s pseudepigrapha.
When confronted with this, he then resorts to his mantra that all critics get their sources from those who are biased, literally ignoring the plethora of quotes given to him by his own leaders that have nothing to do with outside sources. He then says that we are wrong for just quoting them, that we quote them wrong. We don’t use ellipses (like he did with Biblical Scholars) and quote pages of material, which to him is just too tedious to read, and yet he can still draw the same lame conclusions that we don’t know what we are talking about!
This is the dog chasing its tail scenario. An endless circle jerk. But there is benefit to what he does here; anyone who reads what he writes will surely come to the conclusion that he can’t defend Mormonism and that anyone who reads the Book of Mormon that many times still won’t be able to quote it correctly because they read into it what they want it to say instead of what it actually says.
FoF said
FoF, what you said is a flat out LIE!!!.
That last thing your chuch does is to encourage Mormons to think and look into the facts. I could write a book from personal experience of talking to LDS face to face, not on blogs.
I went to SLC and did the temple tour, I walked up to, two of the LDS women Missionary’s. I asked a question about JS shooting 3 people with a gun, right off the bat, one walked away and came back with one of the security guards who warned me, I would be escorted from the property if I ask more questions like that. So much for what you said.
I spoke with another Missionary about that subject at another building, she said that was not true, I showed her from the Book, History of the Church, I had a copy with me for that Just in case moment. She broke down and cried saying it’s not possible he did that. Why did she never hear about that until I told her?
I have been to LDS church services, then when asked questions about the teaching, as soon as I open my mouth and say what I thought or ask questions, I am removed to a room away from everybody, after a short while I am asked to leave and never return.
But FoF, how come these guys are not open to talking? I hear so many excuses as to why Mormons, Both the Missionarys and others wont engage me in honest talks. I have said this many times and never once has a Mormon taken me up on the offer.
You feel your honest and telling the truth, and you guys are open to debate and looking at the facts, then meet me at my house or any place in the MN twin cites area. I will have mormons from a local ward meet us, I wont tell them your a mormon, and neither will you. then I will talk and ask questions. See how long they are open to looking at the facts before they make excuses as to why they need to move on. I will even meet them at their home or churh building, ward or any place. I am not afraid to stand before any amount of LDS, one on one, or stand up in front of the entire Church and talk. Yet it will never happen because they do not want to look into the truth.
FoF, you feel otherwise, Then I will gladly post all my information publicly for everyone to see and read, you can pass it along to a local LDS church, explain that I claim they are afraid to talk about their beliefs in and open and honest way. You can tell them that you being LDS believe I am misinformed and that they are not afraid. I will have a video camera, I have access to one used by a local TV station here in the Twin Cities, the connection comes via my church. I will have some one film the entire debate, then I will either post it on this blog, if the Mods allow. otherwise I will post it on youtube with links.
If you make any excuse as to why you will not or cannot do this, then I stand by what I said, Your a lair and have no clue. If you take me up on this offer, then we as a whole will see if the LDS are really upfront and honest and are willing to do as you claim they are.
So FoF, will you take this challenge, or will you do as usual and run away and ignore me. Balls in your court.
Jarron21,
You said
I have said this many times before, and others had said things like it.
We dont really have a problem with self defense or JS defending himself or his friends.
I am a fighter at heart and in real life. I did judo and ju-jitsu, I love fighting, I dont lie about that or hide that fact. I wont run from no one, and will never die a maryters death. Good or bad, or if people agree or dis-agree I dont care, I will fight if need be. I just Got my conceal and carry permit. I plan on buying a hand gun and plan on buying a 50 caliber. These are called hand cannons. Everyone I know tells me, that is to big and it’s so big I could not conceal it, they all advise against it.
Now with that said, the problem we all have with JS fighting back is this, He claims, or according to History of the Church, He went as a lamb to the slaughter. That was said about Jesus. JS is not Jesus and did not die Like Jesus. Jesus never fought back, never even said a word to those that beat Him and killed Him. JS did just the opposite.
Also many LDS deny JS having a gun or shooting anyone, but how can they deny it when we know it happened? Also JS tried escaping by jumping out the window. Now I have no issue with trying to save yourself or trying to get away from people who are trying to take your life.
But to claim his death was like the Death Of Jesus, by saying, I go to my death as a lamb to the slaughter. Jesus never tried to run away. Also JS seems to imply he knew he was going to die, but then tried to avoid his death. Again Jesus never did that. That is just a few problems I have. not that he fought back.
Folks
FOF is just trying to protect that which he holds near and dear. Any explanation will do. That’s how he’s differet from the former Mormos who post here. The former Mormons actually know something and FOFs only defense is that they’re “ignorant”. That’s what I call a guy who’s lost the argument. grindael is right. FOF will slink away and then reappear on another thread repeating the same tired information.
jarron
wants me to return to primary school and answer the second question in the Baltimore Catechism used in my Catholic School. The first question was, “Who made you?” The answer is, “God made me.” The second question was, “Why did God make you?” The answer is, “God made me to know, love and serve Him in this world and the next.”
I’d say that theology for a six year old should be sufficient here.
I find it pretty funny the reason old FOF gives for why our former Morman posters left the LDS church. It settles on the the idea that the information was faulty. I don’t know but aren’t facts facts? What FOF seems to be saying is that these folks are getting their information from bad sources. grindael has told us his story as have the other former Mormons and their information came from Mormon sources.
Here’s the problem FOF has. He doesn’t like the conclusions these folks came to which is Mormonism is false, Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet and the LDS church is not the one true church. Such a thought would send FOF into a deep depression from which he would have trouble recovering.
Jarron21, let me try one more time . My original comment was made to remind Mormons
not to fear leaving their church because they don’t need Mormonism to receive a complete
( saving ) relationship with God . Forgiveness and pardon from sins is available outside the
Mormon church and they can be reconciled to God and receive salvation from Him .
No more Joseph Smith and the “restored” gospel . They’ve turned to Jesus and are trusting
Him alone .
The former Mormons here such as grindael, jaxi, Kate , maple leaf, to name a few have
experienced this wonderful truth .
Now , does this describe your personal belief ?
Your question of : why did God decide to create man ? Short answer : for fellowship .