Mormonism and the “Great Machine”

Mormonism’s “eternal law” is the creed of multiverse.

Transcending all gods. Governed by no ultimate Persons. Impersonal. Cold. “Without body, parts, passions.” Incromprehensible. “Unknown and unknowable—formless, passionless, elusive, ethereal, simultaneously everywhere and nowhere.”

All the gods must submit to it, abide by it, conform to it.

“We were there and then (say) born in the express image and likeness of him by whom we received our spiritual birth possessing the same faculties & powers but in their infantile state yet susceptable of an elevation equal to that of those possessed by our Spiritual Father But in order to effect this we must needs be planted in a material tabernacle. Accordingly the great machine was set in motion whereby bodies for the immortal sons and daughters of God came into being…” (Lorenzo Snow, Feb. 14, 1842. Quoted by Van Hale)

Is the idea of the Great Machine more eternal than God’s godness?

Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

– If You Could Hie to Kolob

If a religion’s God is what it holds up as Ultimate and Original, then:

– Mormonism’s God is not Heavenly Father, but the eternal law that governs all the Heavenly Fathers.

– Christianity’s God is a Triune, Personal Being. Three happy persons in eternal relationship. Father, Son, and Spirit.

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81 Responses to Mormonism and the “Great Machine”

  1. falcon says:

    Well here we go! More of the great wisdom and knowledge that is part of the on-going “restoration”. Yes indeed this is what the first century Christian Church believed, taught and practiced. It’s all there in the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers and even the heretics of that time. It’s all part of the traditions of the Church Jesus established.
    This is what happens when you get men who are full of themselves and believe they are receiving messages directly from some “god”. And just think. The LDS church is the great font of all of this revealed wisdom and knowledge.
    These LDS folks want to be considered Christians when nothing they believe, practice and teach bears any resemblance to the Church Jesus founded. The “Church” is the Mystical Body of Christ composed of all of those who have come to Jesus in faith and are trusting in Him alone for their salvation. That’s all the revelation, wisdom and knowledge a person needs to be saved.

  2. falcon says:

    ……and so we have the difference between God who reveals Himself in the Bible and the “gods” of Mormonism. The “gods” of Mormonism are subject to the great laws of the universe. And so it should be. Not one of these “gods” is omnipotent or omniscient. In fact these LDS gods are evolving throughout eternity gaining more wisdom and knowledge.
    Mormons would do well to read the Bible and find out who God tells us He is. First of all there’s only One of Him. Everything is subject to Him. He is not subject to anyone or anything. God is self-contained.
    Mormons are depending on their obedience to the system to provide them their pathway to becoming gods. Their god and his wives are rooting for these obedient Mormons to make it back from their stay in their mortal bodies to become gods.
    Here’s the clincher. Not all sects of Mormonism believes this. Joseph Smith and his band of merry men took off in some incredible directions that aren’t followed by other sects who claim also to have a prophet and the restoration. In fact even the LDS sect out in Salt Lake City follows the wisdom and knowledge revealed to early Mormon leaders.
    Let’s face it. Mormonism is a mess. It’s just about time for a leader strong and true to emerge restoring all things. And the Mormon parade marches on!

  3. falcon says:

    OOPS!
    My above sentence “In fact even the LDS sect out in Salt Lake City follows the wisdom and knowledge revealed to early Mormon leaders.” should have a big “doesn’t follow”.

  4. cattyjane says:

    I think I have posted more than enough verses regarding how God is one, Deut 6, and how there is no God beside him, none before him and none after him. I will post them again later today but I am headed to work so I cant do that at the moment.

    I have been doing quite a bit of research lately on how Jesus is the Messiah that was promised in the OT. Ive been going through all of the prophesies that the Christians claim are Messianic prophesies and comparing with what the Jewish people say are the prophesies. Something came to mind while doing this.

    The Mormons claim that our God/Father was a Jesus on another planet who reached a state of ultimate righteousness to become a God right? At least that is what I was told. I haven’t researched that. If im wrong maybe a former or current LDS can set me straight. But what got me wondering is does this process just keep repeating itself on every world? Is there some falling away, a giving of laws and ordinances, a promise of a Messiah, a sacrifice for sin and then this Messiah becoming a God? If so, at what point does one of these Gods realize “Hey this kinda sucks. Maybe I just wont repeat this process by which a bunch of people go to hell because they wont listen to me. Lets just end here.” Just curious.

  5. cattyjane says:

    Oh wait, my bad, lds doesnt believe in a firey pit. Personally I dont either. I believe its Ghenna which is a place outside the walls of Jeruselem. Its still a horrible place. Its where all the filth was dumped. Its basically a sewage. So those that arent welcomed into the new Jeruselem will be cast into Ghenna/hell or the sewage where “the worm does not die and the fire is not quinched”. Rather than living in the midst of the glory of the Father they will be eternally seen as rotting flesh and filth. Pretty sad. Mark 9:44-48, Matthew 25:41, and Isaiah 66:24.

  6. MJP says:

    Another topic I would love to hear from LDS about. Aaron just accused the LDS of believing in principles above god. This, I would think, would be worthy of a rebuttal.

    What’s telling, though, is that he provided a quote to show that at least one leader of the LDS program has used language to show that the principles are greater.

    I would love to hear how LDS counter this.

  7. falcon says:

    MJP
    In my experience here on MC, Mormons get real agitated when questioned about topics like this one. They have reacted very negatively when I spin-out the current LDS dogma regarding all of the gods, their wives, the pre-existence etc. They don’t like us talking about it because it appears very foolish and, to put it bluntly, stupid.
    Think about it. We have all of these Mormon gods with all of their various solar systems and they’re all practicing temple rituals borrowed from the Free masons, right? Well if there are these eternal principles that these gods are subject to, and if there is a prescribed program for attaining deity status, aren’t they all dressing up in costumes and performing rituals in temples regardless of their planet?
    I’m wondering if the mortals on the other planets are practicing polygamy? Did they all have a prophet with a magic rock that he could put in his hat for conjuring?
    Who’d want to have to defend this mess?

  8. cattyjane says:

    Falcon,
    Haha! Thats exactly my point! Is this whole thing repeated on every planet? You would think at some point one of these gods would have a better idea. Is there also a brother to this other Jesus who is evil? Kinda remindes me of the tv show called Sliders where they get sucked into wormholes that are alternate worlds similar to there own but with a little twist.

  9. falcon says:

    cattyjane,
    It could be that the Mormon god of this planet doesn’t know it all yet because he’s still evolving and growing in wisdom and knowledge. It’s a feature of the continuous revelation program. That’s sort of the fun part of the LDS/FLDS form of Mormonism. The early Mormons really grooved on this stuff. It was just a hoot for them because it’s all so contrary to Christianity.
    Because these folks are so into the “prophet”, they’ll pretty much believe any thing presented to them. It doesn’t even matter if it changes next week. The Bible calls this “endless speculation” and those who buy into it are described as being “unstable in all their ways”.
    I often wonder why the Bible isn’t good enough for them. But there’s an attraction for some people; being told that Christianity, the Bible, Christian churches etc. are wrong, corrupt, and not having the real deal revelation.
    But, remember, not all sects of Mormonism believe as the LDS and FLDS do.

    I like this quote from one of the Mormon sects.

    “The Church of Christ grew rapidly as the gospel was spread and was accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost and with miracles. Unfortunately the devil was also hard at work at this time, trying to destroy the Church from without and within …in short order there were ideas and doctrines introduced which were not a part of the Gospel of Christ. …These doctrines included the consolidation of power into the hands of one man as ‘Prophet’ (not unlike the Pope) the offices of a High Priest and a First Presidency, the practice of baptism for the dead, the belief in a changeable God and the mysticism of Free Masonry. The name of the Church had even been changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

    http://blog.mrm.org/2012/04/a-mormon-denominational-walkabout/

  10. cattyjane says:

    What a mess. See this is the stuff I never knew about until I started looking into things. I really think many people, mostly inactive members like I was, probley have no idea about these doctrines.

  11. spartacus says:

    What did Brigham Young teach about these possible saviors and brothers gone bad?

    ” But the fact exists that the Father, the Divine Father, whom we serve, the God of the Universe, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits, provided this sacrifice and sent his Son to die for us; and it is also a great fact that the Son came to do the will of the Father, and that he has paid the debt, in fulfilment of the Scripture which says, “He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Is it so on any other earth? On every earth. How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through, Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof,

    72

    in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through.”
    Journal of Discourses 14:71-72

    If that isn’t clear enough, are we to believe that the LDS Heavenly Father became a god by his future son’s sacrifice?

    ” He is our Father—the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation.” JoD 7:333

    Who does this console?
    What consolation is this?

  12. Mike R says:

    Joseph Smith succumbed to apostaizing from the truth about our Creator ,the One True
    God , into teaching that there are many Gods , Deities above Him all of who like Him were never always God , and that sinful man could become such Gods . Subsequent Mormon leaders
    proceeded to feed their flock additional doctrines about God , thus even further drifting away
    from the truth as recorded in the Bible ( and Book of Mormon ) . But these alleged modern day
    counterparts to Jesus’ original apostles exposed themselves by their doctrinal innovations to
    be whom Paul warned would come to mislead — 2Cor 11:4 ; Gal 1:8 .

    Mormonism offers a system , a system of laws older than God , and says that the Lord God
    Creator of heaven and earth is simply a guy who eons ago on another earth learned of this
    system and proceeded to work it , and finally he was able to become God Almighty , thus
    He was finally smart and strong enough to be able to say ” Let there be light ” ( Gen1:3) .
    This is the core principle / law of Mormonism . The Bible presents our Creator as much more
    special and unique than that . Mormonism’s treatment of God in their teachings reflects the
    error some people succumbed to long ago in how they drifted into false views of Him —
    Rom 1:23 .

    The Mormon people are a sincere people who have been detoured by their leaders . These men
    have a track record that shows a pattern — they have claimed to promise doctrinal safety and
    sound doctrine , but have been too erratic in teaching about God . Not reliable .
    The Mormon people need to understand that following false prophets is very serious in God’s
    sight . God will help those Mormons who choose to honor Him by dismissing their leaders role
    over them and then trusting Him to guide them in the next step in following Him to spiritual
    freedom .

  13. MJP says:

    I know this is not a legal situation, but legally, silence can be viewed as an admission. Failure to respond to claims against you implies the allegations made are true, because someone who did not do the things stated would stand and defend himself. This is why you can be defaulted if you fail to respond to a complaint.

    This is not a situation involving a court of law, but I wonder if the same thing applies to the silence of Mormons in situations like this. Now, I don’t know if Mormons have read this article, or the previous article. I have to assume some have, though, since there are a fair number of Mormons who regularly post here.

    Assuming that is true, then, the silence is telling us something. Maybe it is that they don’t have enough to defend with so they (Mormons) stay silent. In this case is it more like a no-contest plea? Maybe its because they don’t care, but the evidence is pretty compelling, so an answer would be appropriate. Maybe they’ve given up discussing here… Maybe, even, they haven’t had time.

    Who knows, but I really do find the silence compelling in and of itself.

  14. Rick B says:

    MJP,
    It typical of Mormons not to reply to topics like this.
    Me and Falcon would get Mormons mad at us over the years when serious topics like this came up and we noted the silence of Mormons.

    But then when a not so serious topic came up Mormons would crawl out of the wood work crying about it, and if we asked about more serious topics, the reply’s tended to be, we were busy.

    One of the best examples is, The LDS are always claiming the trinity is false, But when a serious 4 part topic was done on it, only a Mormon or two touched barley on part 1, they ignored the other three parts. And then If I recall correctly, it was Ralph that I asked, why are Mormons ignoring this topic. He said something like, It does not interest him.

    Really, it does not interest You? LDS claims thats a doctrine of the Devil, and for years before that topic was posted, LDS would derail topics to simply cry about the Trinity, but after it was posted, they all went silent. Funny how that works.

  15. falcon says:

    What Joseph Smith and his gang were proposing, isn’t science. It’s some sort of religious mumbo jumbo that was conjured-up in their blue sky speculative stream of consciousness. Remember the “men on the moon” and “on the sun” pronouncements?
    Context is very helpful with this and it must be remembered that the time in which Smith and his home-boys lived was an era of great religious experimentation and speculation. There’s a reason why the Mormon prophets don’t say much other than “Rah rah rah sis boom bah” these days. It’s all be true to your school type of motivational speaking that comes from the Mormon leadership.

    One of my favorite songs from the Broadway musical, “Book of Mormon” is the “I believe” tune. It comes at a time when the Mormon missionary is having some doubts. The lines in the song are priceless as is the earnest sincerity with which it is sung. This poor naive sap has all of this bright eyed and fresh faced enthusiasm and re-commitment to his religion as he pledges his faith in Thomas Monson and that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Mo.
    So for the faithful committed Mormon, it’s just a lot of putting things on the shelf and finding un-plausable explanations for things that are obviously false. Millions and billions of gods, men becoming gods, following universal laws that prescribe how to become a deity. If someone will believe that Smith had power in his magic rock, they’ll believe anything.

  16. Mike R says:

    Aaron asks the question :

    ” Is the Great Machine more eternal than God’s godness ? ”

    According to Mormonism , yes .

    Mormon leaders have reduced the Lord God Almighty that we meet in scripture to a Deity the
    Bible does not teach . The Deity Mormon leaders have introduced in their teachings was once
    one of a myriad of spirit creatures born to a heavenly Deity and wife , and who themselves had
    started out just like him at one time .

    This is not the God we meet in the opening verses of Genesis , the true and Living God .
    He was not some creature who was taught how to become Almighty God by a higher Deity ,
    one smarter and possessing more dominion than He , rather He’s unique — He is the Creator .
    He has always been God . He was’nt pro- created by a male and female Deity nor has He
    Aunts and Uncles . The True God is one of a kind so He was not a product of Mormonism’s
    doctrinal invention of the ” Great Machine ” .

    May the Mormon people dismiss their prophets and come to where they can learn about , and
    meet, the One True God . The Bible contains that information . It is God’s word .

  17. falcon says:

    How can you prove or disprove someone’s “revelation”.
    Well there has to be a standard to compare the revelation to. So what do you do if your revelation can’t stand-up to the accepted standard? That’s pretty easy. Do one of the following; lower the standard, change the standard or declare the standard to be corrupt.
    Mormonism went with the latter and therefore opened the door to whatever weird, wacky, totally off-the-bubble ideas a receiver of the supposed revelation proclaims. That’s how we get God being supplanted by a series of eternal “principles”. And Mormons wonder why we, as Christians, don’t accept them or their religion into the fold. In order to be accepted as Christian, a person or group has to actually acknowledge God and accept the standard by which He reveals Himself to mankind.
    The Mormon prophets became their own standard. That’s why we hear such inane dittys from Mormons that they should “follow the leaders they will never lead you astray” and “when the leaders speak, the thinking has been done”.
    I don’t know? Why not just pray to the machine?

  18. falcon says:

    So what we have is the set of eternal principles which govern the universe. For the sake of our discussion, “the machine”. The machine some how made “gods”. The gods along with their wives procreated spirit children who then became people. Some of these people rose to the level of being prophets. These prophets have a direct communication line to their individual gods of what ever solar system they inhabit.
    Now the regular mortal people on these planets have a very important task also. They are to pray about things to determine if these things are true and then the god of that planet gives them a confirming feeling known by various terms i.e. “inner witness” or the fav, “burning in the bosom”.

    Here’s the thing though. Since the prophet is the standard, about the only choice the followers have is to affirm via the bosom burning or inner witness that what the prophet says is true. Well that is until the prophet dies. Then what he proclaimed can be sorted and placed in the “opinion” or “folk doctrine” bin.

    Bruce McConkie, not a prophet but a Mormon leader, did this with impunity regarding Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine. Here’s a perfectly acceptable Mormon doctrine that was proclaimed and taught by the Mormon prophet and received via countless bosom burnings by individual Mormons in their time and it gets dumped. There’s something definitely something wrong with the system.
    In the past Mormons on MC have derided me for not reading the BoM but declaring that it’s false. I always tell them that I don’t have to read it to know it’s false. Well how can that be? I tell them that I have a witness that it is false. This throws them into a tizzy because in their world the only acceptable answer is that the BoM is true.
    I’m wondering about this whole system and why there’s such a thing as an inner witness if all it’s good for is to affirm what the prophet says? It’s obvious that there are all sorts of things that have been previously believed by Mormons, affirmed by an inner witness but that are no longer true; in their world.
    I have a better way. Get rid of the idea put forth by the Mormon prophet that the Bible is corrupt and not trustworthy. Then read it and find God and His truth. It’s true regardless of what sort of feeling it produces.
    The universe is governed by God and Him alone. The only eternal principles that there are, were proclaimed by Him and subject to Him.

  19. MJP says:

    Rick, I know. Nonetheless, their silence is telling on such topics. Perhaps they feel it is simply better to not touch them since doing so will only raise further questions and problems. I think they know this is true, and its better for them to simply not go there. Even if they don’t buy into the questions raised, it will only cause strife, and its better to not cause strife, they likely think.

    I don’t know any of this, but their lack of response allows us to think of logical reasons why they would not answer. I can’t think of a single reasons why they wouldn’t want to address these questions, questions that get to the heart of their faith, that does not somehow create a virtual admission they have serious problems.

    Any reasonable faith should be able to be defended on all fronts. Christianity certainly can, and I find most Christians welcome such questions that challenge the faith. Christianity can stand on its own.

    So can our God. God is God. God is the eternal principal. God is the truth itself. God is not bound by anything, and is not progressing. God has always been full, and everything in the world is His. There is nothing that is not a part of Him or came from Him.

    Mormons cannot say that about their god. He is a weak, dependent god. They will say otherwise, but they cannot escape that he only got to where he is because he followed the appropriate principles and was dependent upon the gift of his god to grant him godhood.

    It is better to follow the God who has always been God, and who created all things than one who had to get there by his obedience to principles beyond his control. Our God is in control.

  20. falcon says:

    MJP
    Here’s what I think…………………………..

    There are Mormons who come here, read what we write and go away thinking we’re a bunch of loose cannons.
    Cattyjane said that was her response as an inactive Mormon coming here looking for information. However she stuck around and wouldn’t you know it, she discovered that what was being presented here was factual.
    My guess is that the average rank and file Mormon doesn’t have a clue regarding this current topic or the one that preceded it. I’ve reported hearing former LDS bishop Earl Erskine say that he knows far more about Mormonism now that he’s no longer a member of the (LDS) church.
    rick and I were continually having Mormons tell the two of us that we didn’t know anything about Mormonism. These folks were in such a bubble that they’d defend things on the basis of them proposing that the information just wasn’t true. Then they’d find out that it was true. Well what usually happened was that they’d paint themselves in a corner and then run away.
    Information is the enemy of Mormonism. As long as a Mormon remains fat and happy and in the Mormon bubble, they’ll maintain their emotional equilibrium. However if they venture out of their comfort zone the results are too painful for them to contemplate.

  21. MJP says:

    Falcon,

    Your assessment makes a lot of sense, sure. But doesn’t even that condemn them further? Its as if they are simply afraid to face these things. To me, that is a sign of a weak faith, frankly. If you cannot address legitimate questions then there is something wrong.

    Now, this topic of ‘the machine’ is an interesting one. It really gets to the heart of the Christian faith and its prime objection to Mormonism: it created a false Jesus and plan of salvation. That Mormons can’t pinpoint with precision who generated the principles that guided Christ, his father, and his ‘grandfather’ then something is indeed missing. That the mode of salvation is not Christ himself but adherence to the principles then they err in salvation, too.

    If they cannot even address these questions, what does that tell us? Perhaps it is as much an effort to put their hands over their ears and close their eyes situation. Who knows, exactly?

    Regardless, there is a better option, and an answer to the question of the genesis of the principles. That answer is found in the book of Genesis, where we are told that God created the world and everything in it. God was there from the beginning, not just a beginning, but THE very beginning of it all, meaning he preceded it. God is the source of salvation, therefore, and failure to recognize leads one astray.

  22. falcon says:

    MJP
    The average Mormon doesn’t even know what questions to ask because they have no reason to. They think they are in the one true church with heavenly father and Jesus and they are such a good moral bunch sincere and devout blah, blah, blah.
    I’ve talked about Lyndon Lamborn who’s a very smart guy. Life long Mormon; family on both sides going way back to the handcart days. He gets interested because a friend at work was reading “Under the Banner of Heaven” and told him there were some interesting things in it about Lyndon’s church. So he reads the book and all of a sudden he’s starting to do research and soon enough he’s excommunicated.
    My point? These LDS folks have no reason to be inquisitive. It’s only after they get poked that they start looking. Look at our dear friend Kate. She stumbles across some information in an old Ensign about the BoA that got her interest. The rest is history.
    Most of the time there is no reason to doubt the LDS church and often it’s because of conditioning. How many people join the LDS church that have no idea of the true nature of the religion? A bunch. I’d say most.

  23. MJP says:

    Falcon– right. But those who read the articles here and post them, especially those who post here regularly, have been and continue to remain silent. No one has stepped up to offer a rebuttal to the arguments presented. It is those who I question.

    Maybe there are those who read and these articles do start raising questions and they don’t know how to respond.

    My only point is that I think this article and the last are deserving of responses. I believe the silence indeed tells us something about Mormons and their faith. What that tells us is up for discussion, but like someone who has been served a civil complaint, silence can be construed as an admission, in this case of something unknown.

    And I’ll end again with the confidence I have in our God, who is identifiable and complete.

  24. falcon says:

    MJP
    It all depends on what type of Mormon stops by here.
    If we get hardcore TBM types they’d defend the LDS church to the death. Those who I would call the contemplative LDS members are the ones who have this nagging feeling that all isn’t quite right. They don’t want to defend what they aren’t all that sure about.
    In the “old days” here on MC we had a bunch of TBMs who’d be posting and arguing like crazy all day long. I don’t know where they’ve all gone to but they are a rare commodity now. They are some place on the net but I don’t know where.

  25. cattyjane says:

    Falcon,
    Ill just raise my hand on that one. When I joined I thought that the only differences between LDS and regular Christianity was that they believed Jesus was brother to Satan, the whole spirit pre-existance thing, the multiple levels of heaven and the temple works. Ya I knew they had the book of Mormon and all that but I read a little bit of it before I joined and it sounded like the bible so I didn’t care. I would say the religion was sold to me. The missionaries were nice and I had made some awesome friends in the church so I didn’t care. I figured as long as I believed in God that was all that mattered. How I worshiped him didn’t matter as long as I had the right heart about it. Ok you all have permission to puke now, because I did a little.
    Yep. When I first came here I thought all of you were nutters who watched to much you tube. I couldn’t believe the stuff I seeing you guys post. But now I know and its horribly embarrassing to say that I fell for their line of nonsense. I love my friends in the church but they are so wrapped up in this LDS culture thing that it is just sad.

  26. falcon says:

    It is true that your average LDS member is in the dark not only about the history of the sect but also the doctrine.
    We get a continual refrain of “that’s not true” or “you’re wrong” or “we don’t believe that”. When shown documentation, and it can be long and detailed, it’s said to be taken out of context. Mormons have all sorts of psychological devices to employ to try and contend that Mormonism isn’t what it clearly is. That’s why we have such a propensity of “opinion” and “folk doctrine” coming from those who try to defend the religion.
    You can haul the publication out with the imprint of the LDS church on it and the Mormon will still deny it. I use to think that Mormons were just plain liars and then I learned they were just plain ignorant. They are also caught in a type of thinking that is characteristic of people in cults. This thinking comes from an unhealthy devotion to the leaders, at every level, in the church.
    The other thing that I’ve observed is that the LDS folks have this habit of making the church be what they want it to be. In-other-words, the doctrinal slate is blank and they write on it what they desire creating their own personal reality.
    Take for example our current topic. I bet the average Mormon doesn’t even know what the article explains. We often bring up the example of the Mormon past prophet Gordon B. Hinckley on the Larry King show. When asked about men becoming gods he basically denied it. That’s a fundamental doctrine of the LDS church and the guy won’t own it. Now the faithful LDS member is conditioned to excuse the lying because it is seen as justified. Any questions along this line are considered hostile and therefore evasion or outright lying are justified.
    There’s really only one or two things that the LDS church wants to insure of its members. Number one, stay in the church even if you don’t believe it and keep paying your tithe!

  27. falcon says:

    cattyjane,
    I feel your pain! It must be terribly embarrassing to have to admit being taken in by this ruse and then not seeing through it. But you are not alone. It happens to all kinds of people, in every walk of life across the IQ spectrum with all sorts of things from religion to multi-level marketing schemes to the new diet fad.
    Something hooks people emotionally. Maybe it’s the love bombing done by the current members. Maybe it’s a time in life when someone is very vulnerable. Cults know who to target. Often it’s college students who are away from home for the first time and who are naive and idealistic.
    I spent so much time cult proofing my daughter that it became a minor obsession. But it paid off because she’d always come to me with questions about these various groups. She knew that if I didn’t know about the group, I’d get the information. We would talk often about the techniques that are used to seduce the unsuspecting “prospect”.

    Anyway, you are out now and can be of great service to others who are trying to find their way. You’re transparency and honesty are traits that will serve you well.

  28. MJP says:

    Isn’t great knowing who our God is and where our salvation comes from?

  29. falcon says:

    LDS members were either born into the church or they converted at some point. It’s a no brainer. Regardless which it is, members from both groups leave Mormonism. By “leave” I mean simply fading away and are inactive or else actually resigning from the church.
    With converts, they don’t get the whole story prior to joining because if they did the conversion rate would be less than the number of people who have walked on the moon. The goal of the LDS church is to get people “Mormonized” as quickly as possible after conversion. This is in the hope that the convert will eventually assimilate into Mormon culture and be inoculated from challenges to their faith in Mormonism. Even people who were born into the LDS fold don’t get the whole story. The constant refrain is, “I didn’t know XYZ about Mormonism and I was a member for 150 years.” Well maybe that last part is an exaggeration but you get my point!
    MJP has addressed those LDS sect folks who come here, are exposed to the information and remain stuck in the Mormon rut. It is sort of mind-blowing that people could come to a knowledge of the history and doctrinal evolution of Mormonism and still believe in Joseph Smith. It’s one thing to not know and an entirely different situation to know.
    These latter folks would say it’s faith and I would agree. There’s no other explanation for it. It’s the same with Jehovah Witnesses or any other aberrant cult. Time for my line: “The more convoluted and bizarre a notion, the more cult members embrace it.

  30. Clyde6070 says:

    Question.
    Are the quotes old definitions of God? They look very familiar and sound like something I heard when some Protestant churches were defining God.
    Do you realize the great machine is a Mom and Pop operations?
    I would comment more but I am reading a fantastic book about the early church where bishops are chosen by popular vote and doctrine is settled by who has the power. The Nicene creed people are winning and the arians are being crushed. The pagans are next on the list.

  31. falcon says:

    clyde,
    And your point is? Now you wouldn’t be trying to get this thread off-track would you clyde? Please comment on the topic at hand.
    I know it’s too much to ask of you to actually put together a cogent, well reasoned point(s) relative to the actual topic here so…………………….
    Please give us the name of the book you’re reading and the author. You’re basically doing your drive by bomb thrower routine again. Please have some respect for the posters here by at least making an argument, posing a question or asking for more information on the topic at hand. Frankly, I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.
    Now are you talking about the LDS church when you say that doctrine is made by those in power? Brigham Young and his two first in commands were voted on. It happened in Council Bluffs, Ia (Kanesville) when the Mormons, after leaving Nauvoo and before heading to Utah, were in disary and leadership was being vied for among several different factions. The Mormon church had a crisis of leadership so what to do?

    “Brigham Young assigned Henry Miller to build a cabin large enough to house a meeting to hold a Solemn Assembly to present the reorganization of the First Presidency to the members of the Church for their sustaining vote. He and 200 other men, in just three weeks, built the log tabernacle for this occasion. It was 65 ft. by 40 ft. and, at the time, was the largest cabin known. The Tabernacle was dedicated December 24, 1847 and on December 27, 1847, a Solemn Assembly was held in the newly completed Tabernacle where Brigham Young was sustained by members of the Church as their new Prophet and President. This was the first such Solemn Assembly since the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith. This was a momentous occasion for the pioneers.”

    “Since then, whenever a president of the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints dies, the First Presidency again is dissolved and a Solemn Assembly is held to sustain a new First Presidency. All succeeding Solemn Assemblies held since then have been held in the historic Tabernacle on Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah, where the broadcasts of the famous Mormon Tabernacle Choir originate each Sunday morning.”
    http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~iapcgs/KnsvilTbrncl.htm

    By the way I’ve been there and toured the rebuilt replica of that meeting house. Sounds like LDS folks in one way or another “vote” on their leadership. It isn’t at all like God calling a prophet. It’s really too bad, isn’t it clyde, how far the LDS church has strayed from its original intent for leadership.

    How did the Mormon church come up with the Adam-God doctrine? Was it voted upon or did a prophet come forth with it? I think we know the answer to that one and how the LDS church has let that doctrine go down the tubes while the FLDS sustains it. So this idea of the prophet coming forth with doctrine doesn’t appear to be all that effective. How about the ban on blacks in the priesthood? Was that voted upon or did the prophet come forth with it? When it was changed was it voted on or did the prophet bring forth a message from the Mormon god?
    Should we go on?
    Keep studying clyde.

  32. falcon says:

    clyde,
    Here’s a little more about the process that was used to “sustain” Brigham Young as the top dog in the Mormon church.

    “It was here that the nine members of the quorum who were present met in council at the home of Elder Orson Hyde on Dec. 5 to discuss the matter of reorganizing the First Presidency. After a somewhat rancorous discussion, President Young voiced his feeling that the Church could not long survive in its present state, but with the First Presidency reorganized, it could move forward with priesthood power. A spirit of peace and calm settled over the body, and Elder Hyde moved that President Young be sustained as prophet, seer and revelator. The quorum voted unanimously to sustain the motion.”
    http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/44372/Bronze-sculpture-honors-1847-leaders.html

    Oh no Batman…………”……after a somewhat rancorous discussion”. YIKES, discord and tumult and anger and maybe even saying some nasty things, we can only speculate, Old Brigham won the top spot in the pecking order of LDS leadership.

    So clyde, perhaps this will have some effect on your reading of Christian Church history.

  33. Mike R says:

    Clyde, you’ve been duped . But that’s what false prophets do to sincere people . Mormon
    leaders have corrupted the scriptural truth about the Eternal God , the Creator of heaven
    and earth which the Bible reveals to us . From the truth about our Creator as a Eternal
    omnipotent Being who has always been God , they have introduced a bizzare belief that
    He was not always such . This ” Great Machine ” and a ” law ” existed long before Him and
    the two ” exalted ” humans , His parents, who had the celestial sex that produced Him !
    That is the God we meet in the Bible ? Sorry , but I cannot worship that God — He does’nt
    exist . The Majestic Creator revealed in the Bible is much more unique than what Mormon
    leaders have taught about Him . But then again why would’nt these men lower God like that ,
    it makes it easier for them to rationalize their delusion to become Almighty Gods themselves
    one day as well as trying to convince their followers they can too if they keep all the rules and
    regulations of the Mormon gospel .
    Clyde , only a correct understanding of God and bending the knee to Him in submission and
    worship will result in salvation for sinful man . To follow the teachings of those prophets who
    go to far ( ” look beyond the mark ” — Jacob 4:14 ) by teaching false ideas about God is
    to put yourself in peril . Not good . Gal 1:8 . Being sincere and moral can’t make up for being
    duped by false prophets . Isa 9:16 .

    You’re reading ” a fantastic book ” about the early church ? Great . Hopefully you’re getting
    your beliefs about the church established by Jesus through His apostles , and the gospel they
    preached , by going to the source — the Bible . Otherwise , you’re apt to get off on some
    rabbit trail leading away from the truth about these . I’m sure you understand that fact .

    We’re praying for you to exchange your prophets for the real ones . It will be difficult but
    you can do it . God will help , because truth matters .
    Take care .

  34. falcon says:

    clyde,
    You may in deed be one of those that MJP was referring to.
    You come here and read; have the truth regarding who God is and what His plan of salvation entails and you reject it. In order to reject God and the free gift of salvation He is offering, you have to accept what a man with a magic rock said about a first century Church apostasy and a corrupted Biblical text. Once you jumped on board the false prophet express, you rejected God’s revealed Word and His Christ.

    Why in the world would you do that clyde after having it all clearly explained to you and having the truth about Mormonism and its prophets exposed?
    Strange indeed but I think it answers MJP’s question.

  35. falcon says:

    So when the Mormon church, later to be LDS, sustained Brigham Young as the supreme leader in a vote, did they mess up?
    Other groups, lets take what is now known as the Community of Christ, didn’t go the doctrinal path of Young or even its founder Joseph Smith. So what did the LDS and FLDS end-up with as a result of this vote? I think the above article pretty much summarizes it. They ended up with gods who are subject to laws or principles of the universe. Mormonism in this variety is more like Greek mythology.

    LDS style Mormonism clearly doesn’t work. The voting doesn’t work. The proclamations by these so called prophets don’t work and in-the-end, the religious system doesn’t work.
    This is what happens when people trust in prophets who are mere men who speculate and prophecy out of their own imaginations.

  36. Ralph says:

    MJP,

    You said – “Failure to respond to claims against you implies the allegations made are true, because someone who did not do the things stated would stand and defend himself.”

    I guess that is why Jesus said nothing when people testified against Him.

    No you’re right, its just a man-made legal thing, nothing to do with spiritual things. I have answered the question about the Book of Abraham (I know its the last post but I am giving this explanation here as this has been brought up in both posts and this is current) a number of times in the past and given a very plausible explanation. So why should I give it again?

    As far as this topic goes, we do not know nor understand the process (for want of a better word) and we can only explain things in our understanding, just like you try to explain your Trinity but still its very incomprehensible. So what is being said here in this post above is just pure speculation, it could be a plausible explanation I will not disagree there, but it may not be the truth, as we do not know what happens.

    For example in the temple ceremony Satan gives the fruit to Adam and Eve stating to God when asked why that he was only doing what had been done on other worlds. So there is a possibility that the other worlds in this creation were given the fruit freely but this earth was designed to have The Fall take place, as it is also this world that we teach Jesus performed the Atonement for the whole of creation, including these other worlds. Meaning that things on other worlds might happen slightly differently to how it did on this world. But again, that is only my speculation from what I have been taught and what I have researched.

    So simple answer – I didn’t want to comment on this post as I have no idea at all what happens, only Heavenly Father and the others who are there know. And I didn’t want to comment on the BoA post as I have answered that many times before.

  37. MistakenTestimony says:

    Ralph,

    You said, “I didn’t want to comment on this post as I have no idea at all what happens, only Heavenly Father and the others who are there know.”

    But your living Prophets have explicitly stated “what happens.” Who are you to question those whom you consider to be the very spokesmen of your God? In comparison, your lack of a position and reductionistic generalization is simply, how shall I say, a convenient answer.

  38. cattyjane says:

    Clyde,
    Well if this site was comparing Roman Catholic Doctrine to LDS doctrine I might be willing to discuss your book. Roman Catholicism is just as man made as LDS. It would be best for you to stick with comparing how God established things in the wilderness and go from there. LDS lack an understanding of how things were originally set up and why they were set up that way. I wont bother getting into it because you don’t communicate well on this blog and don’t respond well to other people. If you did I might invest more time on your posts.

    Ralph,
    To assume that it was an actual fruit in the garden is to take a very gentile pagan understanding to the text, but I wont get into that. What I find interesting is that if the LDS beliefs of other worlds and other gods are a restored understanding to the original beliefs than why don’t the prophets in the old testament ever speak about them? Also you can lump everyone on here into one category and say that since they don’t have to explain the trinity than you are excused from explaining your un-ending lineage of gods. I don’t fall into that category. This is my understanding of God. He is one, Echad, and HE said himself that there is none before Him and none after Him. Duet 6 and Isaiah 45:5 are good verses for this. Notice Isaiah says apart from Me there is no other God. So anything other than the God of Israel is not a god at all. So I don’t have to try to defend the trinity, even if I wanted to, to tell you that your doctrine does not line up with what the God of Israel says about Himself. So for your doctrine to be correct than the God of Israel has to be a lier and how can you trust anything if that is true. If your wrong than just by believing your doctrine you are calling the God of Israel a lier. Can you stand before Him on that last day and answer for that?

  39. cattyjane says:

    Ralph,
    I meant to say you CANT lump everyone into one category on this blog.

  40. falcon says:

    Oh Please Ralph!
    This is even way too much even for you:
    “I guess that is why Jesus said nothing when people testified against Him.”
    You are comparing yourself to Jesus? I know you think you’re going to become a god but aren’t you rushing the process a little?
    You’re suppose to have these prophets that are bringing the messages from the Mormon god straight to the people. They sure are doing a lousy job of it.
    Quite honestly your naivety and willingness to toss out God’s prophets who revealed Him in His Holy Word for a bunch of prophet wannabees is mind blowing.

  41. cattyjane says:

    Ralph,
    One more thing. Why would you even bring up the book of abraham when it has been proven by Egyptologists to not be what JS said it was?

  42. falcon says:

    cattyjane
    After several years of interacting with Ralph on this site I can tell you that he is a sincere soul who believes he has had spiritual experiences that reinforce all things Mormon. These experiences along with his emotions are all he needs to sustain his testimony. That’s why he even has a Ralph explanation for the BoA.

    MJP………………….you got a version of “it’s just too sacred to talk about”. That’s usually reserved for heavenly mother and the temple rituals. It’s a great LDS escape hatch!

  43. cattyjane says:

    Falcon,
    Im sure he is. If he has been coming here for several years tho then maybe he has doubts of his own but he just hasn’t made a decision yet. Otherwise why come here at all unless for some weird form of entertainment.
    When I was considering going back to the LDS church I had an interesting discussion with some friends of mine who are LDS. (This was before I had found Mormon Coffee) I hadn’t been to the church since my divorce in 2008, and before that I wasn’t that involved either. At this point I was just attending the women meetings and family home evenings. I had been researching some things on my own, not having to do with LDS doctrine but with the origin of religion, and had considered leaving the LDS faith to another faith. I told my friends about it and that is when the church stepped in and began with the love bombing and missionary meetings and then you guys came in right about that point. That is when I learned about all the dirty doctrine of the church and made my final decision.
    But what caught my attention when I was talking to my friends (a married couple in the church) was that the wife spoke up and said “I had doubts about the church at one time as well”, and the husband was like “What? When was this?”. So he didn’t even know about it. I don’t think that people discuss when they have doubts about the church. I think the reason why she said something is because she felt that it would help me to see that it was normal to have doubts but that it didn’t mean the church was wrong.
    Some things we wont ever have an answer to but it doesn’t make a difference in how we serve God or how we are judged, like was the tree in the garden an actual fruit tree or was it a Counselor? That doesn’t make a bit of difference in how we come before God. Is there more gods than the God of Israel? This one does make a difference because flat out God commanded:

    Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other Gods before me
    Exodus 8:10 There is no one like our God
    Duet 4:35 The Lord is God; there is no other besides Him
    Duet 4:39 He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
    Duet 32:39 See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me
    Duet 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one (echad).
    2 Samuel 7:22 You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You.
    2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, besides the Lord? And who is a rock, besides our God?
    1 Kings 8:60 The Lord is God; there is no one else.
    1 Chronicles 17: 20 O Lord, ther is none like You, nor is there any God besides you.

    There are so many more of these passages. Do you realize for the doctrine of many gods existing before the God of Israel that every one of these have to be wrong? That would mean that not only is God a liar but also every single prophet who ever wrote that there was only One God and that there is no god before Him or no god after Him was also a liar. We would be required to throw away the entire set of scriptures!

    I think everyone agrees that Isaiah was one of the greatest prophets to ever have lived. Isaiah states, “You alone, Lord, are God” (37:20), “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me” (43:10), “I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me” (44:6). I could continue with more but I think those will suffice.

    So maybe he is sincere but he is sincerely in darkness. He is sincerely turning a blind eye to what is being written here because of his own desires and wants. He wants the LDS doctrine to be true because it gives him some kind of fulfillment. But what we want to be true had better be what is true or else there will be quite a large bill to be paid when we stand before the Almighty and tell Him that our wants were more important than His commandments. Not a good idea.

  44. falcon says:

    cattyjane,
    I can’t figure out why Ralph keeps showing-up here since often times we are populated on MC by mostly former Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with defending the LDS church or testimony bearing. I don’t know. But one thing is certain. God has given him every opportunity possible to come to him in faith and in so doing reject the false gods of Mormonism.
    Maybe you are better qualified to speculate on his frame of mind because you were there and know what it feels like. But you figured it out. What’s the difference between you and someone like Ralph?

  45. cattyjane says:

    falcon,
    I know that God allows us to take certain paths in our lives in order to mold us and refine us into something that can be used by Him. I think we see evidence of this in many of the stories of the OT; Joseph, Moses, David, and Daniel. Some of us have to wander in the wilderness longer than others before we can hear the voice of our Creator calling out to us. My path is not anything like Ralphs path, I can guarantee that one.

    Remember we only plant the seed, but God brings the increase. Its not up to us. We don’t bring anyone to kneel before the God of Israel. He brings them and they either respond or rebel. We can only pray that God will soften their hearts and open their eyes to see through the lies that they have been taught.

  46. MJP says:

    Ralph,

    We all have given an explanation, one you say may be true. You fall back on only God knows, and those who are there. This reminded me of Luke 16. You remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich man. Lazarus was in heaven, the rich man in hell. After asking to be given something to cool his tongue, the rich man is rebuked. Abraham, though, told the rich man this:

    “25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers[g]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’”

    Notice, once you are there, you can’t move. Your are placed in your eternal destiny and you cannot move from one place to the next. Second, you’ll notice the Rich Man begging Abraham to tell his family to believe now, not later.

    I imagine those who have gone before you are crying out to you to choose wisely now, and follow the God of Israel, who became man and died on the Cross for all of our sins and in whose trust is the only way to salvation. Trust in Jesus, or you will be like the Rich Man.

    But the Bible story continues from here. The Rich Man begs Abraham to tell them because if someone from the dead comes, they would believe. Abraham, though, tells the Rich Man that they have scripture, Moses and the Prophets, and if they don’t believe those, they won’t believe someone from the dead. In other words: they have been told, and they have no excuse.

    You, dear sir, have been told. You have no excuse.

    Now some other points from your post: I can explain the Trinity. The trouble is not in explaining it, but in understanding it. God is one God, in three separate but united beings, manifesting Himself in three different ways. See, its been explained. It is not speculation, it is truth. There is no mystery beyond figuring out how God could be three in one, but God is three in one.

    You admit everything is speculation, and that what we say may be true. If it is true, how does that make you feel? How does it make you feel that other worlds, then, may have different standards than yours? Are you apathetic to that? Or does it run counter to the concept that the principles are universal? If the principles are not universal or standard, how can a new god justify his decisions on who else becomes a god? By his own whim?

    If everything is speculation, then nothing can be confirmed. It is by mere, blind faith that you follow a system wherein you place your hope of salvation. However, this system is possibly random and counter to what other systems might be, within your own world of belief systems. Ultimately, the truth (that being what saves) therefore is unknowable and inconsistent.

    Contrast this with the Christian position: God is indeed knowable, and the truth is in God. It is and always has been the same. God is and always has been God, and always will be God. There is only one God, and therefore only one truth. God’s truth is revealed to us in the Bible, and through prayer. He speaks to us directly and has given all we need to know through the 66 books in Bible. We can know God on a real and personal level, and don’t have to speculate on what principals salvation is based upon.

    Now, Ralph, thank you for admitting you don’t know, and that our speculation may be true. I believe that it is true, and it leaves me feeling empty. However, as I said in a previous post: I am thrilled to know that the true God is knowable and the source of salvation is clear.

  47. MJP says:

    Ralph, another point: are you suggesting the Jesus is also a god of all the other worlds, too?

  48. Ralph says:

    Cattyjane,
    I brought up the BoA because in the post “The Book of Abraham: A Mormon Conundrum” and on this one a number of people complained that I and other LDS were not commenting. I was simply stating that I have given my view point many times before and decided it was not worth stating again. But for your benefit, here it is –

    One account states that part of the papyri we have had writing in red ink/paint on it. From what I understand this has not been found in the pieces we have at the moment. (Millennium Star Volume XV, No34 August 20, 1853, History of Joseph Smith p 550, left column starting line 13 [http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MStar/id/7334])

    Another eye witness account states that JS had a number of papyri and one of them when unrolled went through 2 rooms of the Mansion House. (http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Text/Size_of_missing_papyrus)
    Estimations of how long that one scroll was, stand at around 10 feet (although if it went through 2 rooms I think it would be longer, just my thoughts). From my understanding we do not have that amount of papyri together in the remaining pieces, let alone enough for 2 scrolls and a couple of manuscripts that JS had in his possession.

    Even the historians that don’t believe in JS translation of the BoA say that we do not have all of the papyri that JS had, especially since (from my understanding) only one of the facsimiles is amongst the discovered pieces, and the other 2 are missing.

    So we are missing some of the papyri that JS had in his possession – this means that the part he translated as the BoA could be on one of the missing portions. Whether you like it or not this is a plausible explanation, just as much as the explanation that the part he translated is on one of the pieces and he got it wrong, which is what you all are saying. I believe the former rather than the latter. The only thing proven by Egyptologists is what we do have according to current thinking, does not align with what JS translated into the BoA, but if we don’t have that part then that stands to reason.

    As far as there being only one God, as you reference, in the Bible, you only have one biological father don’t you? Or do you have more than one biological father? Do you know of any other biological father for you before him or after him or even co-existent with him? There is only one God for this creation and that is Heavenly Father and no other Gods were there before or after Him for this creation. That is a plausible explanation to me, maybe not to you but that is why and how I can believe the way I do. The Bible, and other LDS scripture and teachings, only cater for the salvation of this world – it gives us all that we need to know.

    MistakenTestimony,

    Our leaders have stated that on other worlds that God has created and populated the beings there are going through a mortal experience as we are here – they are given to temptation and suffering and are in need of a Saviour, but they have not fully explained the exact conditions on those worlds. Indeed the temple ceremony hints at a possible difference, as I mentioned above. Also as I stated above, we are taught that Jesus is the Saviour for all of this creation. If this means all of the universe associated with this earth and the beings on all of those planets, then something different must be happening on those worlds compared to this one in that respect. But since that has no bearing on our salvation we have not been told, we are only told what we need for our salvation on this earth.

    Here is a reference for you – Institute Manual; Doctrines of the Church; The Atonement of Jesus Christ

    “Now our Lord’s jurisdiction and power extend far beyond the limits of this one small earth on which we dwell. He is, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number. (Moses 1:33.) And through the power of his atonement the inhabitants of these worlds, the revelation says, ‘are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D. & C. 76:24), which means that the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an infinite number of earths.

    Falcon,

    I am not comparing myself to Jesus, MJP made a statement and I was just giving one example of it not being true. I could give others from my life experience, but you’d just put it down as another ‘somebody told me’ comment as you did before, even though many others on this site make the same comments as I showed. Besides shouldn’t we ask in any given circumstance the question ‘What would Jesus do?’ So given His example, maybe I should shut up on this site.

    My explanation for the BoA comes from reading what is out there and deciding on where the evidence points – we do not have all of the papyri (from some sources we have nowhere near enough –eg one person says we only have about one eighth of what JS had) so we cannot make any full conclusions yet.

    MJP,

    I did not admit everything is speculation, I admitted that everything about this topic (ie how God became God, what about the Gods before Him, etc) is speculative. There are many things in the LDS church doctrine that is not speculative and is true and firm.

    In the LDS church, God is also knowable, and there is only one God and one truth. You too have been taught and warned and have no excuse at the judgement seat of God.

    I am not suggesting anything, I am saying that Jesus is the creator of other worlds in this creation, in fact He is the creator of all of this creation, under the auspices of Heavenly Father who is The God of all of this creation – see the quote above I gave to MistakenTestimony.

  49. MJP says:

    Ralph, I know full well you were talking about this topic: it is all speculation. Thanks for admitting it. Thanks for admitting you have no idea about how your religious principles come to us. Thanks for admitting you have no idea their genesis. Thanks for admitting you don’t know where the principles your god gives you come from, whether they are his and his alone and other gods have something different. Thanks for admitting that there is possibly no consistency between the various worlds out there and in how the beings that inhabit them achieve their salvation.

    My guess, therefore, is as good as yours.

    The LDS church might be immediately knowable, but the more you study it, the more vague it becomes. Do you not agree with that statement?

    So, if Jesus created other worlds, some gods get to create more than one world? Who decides and on what basis is that decision made? See, we’re still very much in the problem addressed in this article.

    “What would Jesus do”, you rhetorically ask Falcon. Jesus would stand up for the truth and not let the truth be mangled. Even when Jesus was silent, which was actually quite rare, he was silent only after giving the truth.

    Oh, and, I will be given a chance to move about in the afterlife, as I am confident someone, probably a child being indoctrinated in church policies, will baptize me posthumously precisely so that I may come to see the truth and make the right decision then.

    Again, the Truth is here for you to see. Why don’t you see it?

  50. falcon says:

    Ralph,
    First of all as to your tactic of “being silent like Jesus”. I’d say, “Nice try. Try again!” We’ll ignore the context of the situation Jesus found Himself in and why He remained silent. By trying to apply this to your situation on MC what you are claiming for yourself is Christlike character and attempting to elevate yourself above the Christian posters; a variation of “taking the high ground”.
    We also discern subtle shaming for the other posters, a technique quite common in LDS circles. The other thing it does for you is provide an escape hatch so you don’t have to engage in debate. If this were poker, you’d be trying to run a bluff. Point-of-fact, you have a losing hand but you don’t want to throw your cards in.
    As to your BoA claim. Ralph, you’re smarter than this. Who in the world would buy an explanation so lame as the “case of the missing papyri”? I’ll tell you who, a desperate member of the LDS church. What’s your explanation for the Kinderhook plates? Just say, “My dog ate my homework” and we’ll understand.

    http://www.mrm.org/kinderhook-plates

    Here’s the deal Ralph, if someone really wants to believe something, evidence to the contrary will have no effect in dissuading them.

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