The Lorenzo Snow couplet’s subordination & dependence dilemma for Mormons

Given both halves of the Lorenzo Snow couplet:

“As man now is, God once was.
As God now is, man may be.”

(a) If we will forever be dependent on and subordinate to our God, then it stands to reason that God himself remains dependent on and subordinate to his own God (our Heavenly Grandfather).

(b) If God is no longer dependent on and subordinate to his own God, then it stands to reason that we can someday become Gods who are independent of, and no longer subordinate to, our own God.

Yet the theistic conscience wants to affirm that both:

(c) God is independent of, and not subordinate to, any other Gods.

(d) We will forever remain dependent on, and subordinate to, our God.

With Biblical Christianity, (c) and (d) are compatible. With traditional Mormonism, they are incompatible.

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79 Responses to The Lorenzo Snow couplet’s subordination & dependence dilemma for Mormons

  1. falcon says:

    I was in a Denny’s this morning having the Value Slam and was reading this article on my smart phone. It got me to thinking, as I was drinking my coffee, about what questions I could ask an LDS sect member regarding their understanding of the nature of God.
    Over the years that I have been posting on MC, we have occasionally gotten LDS folks who really don’t know that their “god” is not God and their “jesus” is not Jesus. They will argue with us about this and it always proves to be a teachable moment.
    To me, this is the most critical of all topics when we discuss Mormonism. I need to make a qualifier here because not all of the sects of Mormonism believe as the LDS/FLDS do about the nature of God. If fact, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s views on the nature of God were fluid and evolving. Smith started out having a traditional view of the nature of God and by the time Young got to it, God was really Adam and he (Adam) had actual physical sexual relations with the Virgin Mary.
    So what could I ask a MM who came tap-tap-tapping on my door about their view of the nature of God? First of all, I wonder if they’d even know the difference. Their entire presentation has to do with selling the prospect on the idea that the LDS church is the one true church because it is headed by a modern day prophet. Would it a surprise to anyone to know that those joining the LDS church most often don’t know the critical fact that the LDS god is a god different from traditional, orthodox, normative, Biblical Christianity?
    So maybe my questions could be boiled down to one (question) and it would simply be, “How does the god of Mormonism differ from the God of Biblical Christianity?”

  2. Mike R says:

    Grandfather Gods and Grandmother Goddesses ? And Mormonism is supposed to the one
    true church of Jesus Christ ? That’s ridiculous .

    May the Mormon people wake up —Matt 24:11 .
    Our hearts break for these precious people , they have been detoured into joining a false prophet
    led organization .

  3. dreamer says:

    So what is the answer ?
    “How does the god of Mormonism differ from the God of Biblical Christianity?”

  4. falcon says:

    It doesn’t take long to break-down the claim of the LDS regarding what they believe about the nature of God and why they believe it. If we take the approach of, “How do you know these things are true?”, they will tell us something along the line of they have living prophets who hear from God. So when we follow-up with questions regarding what their various prophets have taught on this matter that’s “evolved” or changed from what previous prophets have taught, they are up against it.
    This idea that it was just folk doctrine or the prophets’ opinion begs the question of, “How do you know the difference?” There has to be so much excuse making that it shouldn’t take long to determine that these supposed prophets aren’t all that special. I think that’s a new trial balloon that’s being floated by the one true church. It’s something along the line that they are just men who can make mistakes. So that’s where the cognitive dissonance comes in; you know holding two contradicting beliefs and believing they’re both true.
    Fact-of-the-matter is, the LDS and FLDS are living a make believe religion that can’t hold up to close scrutiny. Is it wonder that the LDS in particular is having a crisis within the rank-and-file.

  5. Mike R says:

    Falcon, you’re right about the erratic teachings which Mormon leaders have preached to their
    followers . I’ve mentioned before how Mormon leaders which succeeded Joseph Smith took
    every opportunity to castigate the other churches around them , and one of the main accusations
    was that ” apostate Christianity ” had exhibited a pattern of producing unstable teachings ,
    therefore they were not trust worthy as guides in understand the truth about important
    Biblical truths . Yet this is what Mormon leaders were guilty of also when one examines their
    track record ! And remember this all comes 1700 after the truths about God , Jesus , etc were
    revealed by God and delivered to people by His prophets and apostles . We get to have these
    vital truths and accept them and they are in the Bible . But Jesus ( in Matt 24 ) alerts those in
    the latter days to beware of men who will come and claim they are sent by Him to preach , yet
    they exhibit a rash of teachings that are unstable , not from Him .

    So people can choose which revealers of God to accept :
    Either the prophets/ apostles in the Bible , or
    the latter days apostles of Mormonism who have claimed , ” …. Joseph Smith and his successors
    are the revealers of the knowledge of Christ and of salvation for our day , and that the Church
    of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth , the one place where
    salvation may be found . ” [ Ensign Nov. 1974 , p 35 ] .

    We receive from the men who knew God and who followed Jesus that there is only one
    Creator God , that He is majestic and utterly unique , He has always been God . There is no
    God higher or with more dominion than He , He owns all creations everywhere . We learn
    about Him in the Bible .

    The Mormon people have received from their prophets that God is but a common male from
    another world , the product of a higher God and wife who sexually produced him and a myriad
    of other spirit babies . He grew and eventually learned enough and became a Almighty God and
    with wife(s) was given a planet(s) of his own to populate with His progeny . This is the God
    Mormons call their ” Heavenly Father ” , and every Mormon male can copy His path and reach
    His status as a Almighty God and one day become heavenly fathers themselves if they do all the works required of the Mormon gospel .

    So there is a choice to be made . Salvation is at stake , it’s that serious . Jn 17:3

    Even a Mormon official once said : without true prophets there is no salvation , false prophets
    [ Bruce McConkie ]

    I could’nt agree more !

  6. Rick B says:

    Hello dreamer,
    are you new here? And are you an LDS member.

    Just asking since lds feel they have the truth and they know the answers we will give.

  7. MJP says:


    Where should we start? Any ideas on where to start?

  8. dreamer says:

    I’m not LDS. I’m Pentecostal. And I like to stand where I am. I just want to understand other people.

  9. dreamer says:

    You guys have much knowledge! Do you think only LDS people will be saved?

  10. MJP says:

    Dreamer, then I’ll answer you this way: the Mormon god is a created figment of the imagination. He is not omnipresent, omniscient, nor all powerful. He was not always god and is dependent upon principles apart from himself. The Mormon god is no god at all.

    Does this help?

  11. Rick B says:

    Dreamer, lds have a false god, their church is built on lies and founded by false prophets. So lds who believe Joseph smith and Mormonism will nof be saved.

  12. Mike R says:

    dreamer asked , ” Do you think only LDS will be saved ?”

    Mormonism teaches that it provides : the only true gospel of salvation ; the only true church of
    Jesus Christ . The Mormon church advertises that it is ” the one place where salvation may be found ” .

    In reality , Mormon prophets are the kind of latter days prophets Jesus warned us all about .
    The vast majority of rank and file Mormons are sincere and make good neighbors .
    My heart hurts for them .

  13. dreamer says:

    So. LDS think God is not omnipresent, but that’s what Bible says that He is. Why don’t you believe it?
    Is LDS a cult or religion ?
    I may have many questions.

    MJP, Rick B, Mike R,
    What do you believe in?
    What is your religion? Or cult ?

  14. falcon says:

    Well dreamer, since you asked………………
    Here’s the short answer. First of all, according to LDS doctrine, the Mormon god of this world was a man on another planet. By being faithful to the “system” he was morphed into a god. There are perhaps millions if not billions of these gods in the universe, all progressing in knowledge and wisdom. The Mormon gods have their wife/wives as their goddess helpmates whose job it is to procreate spirit children, with them of course, who will then garner human bodies, populate the god’s worlds and have the opportunity to become gods themselves. The Mormon “Jesus” is one of the spirit offspring of the Mormon god and one of his wives. “Jesus” was chosen by the council of the gods to come to this world and redeem it.

    So there you are. Now contrast this with what you, being a Pentecostal, know about God. But one question. What flavor of Pentecostal are you? Are you a Oneness Pentecostal? If you are then you don’t subscribe to the traditional Christian view of the nature of God. You would be what is known as “Jesus only” in your view of God. It’s a form of modalism where by God manifests Himself in different modes i.e. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    The traditional Christian view, traced back to the Apostles is that there is One God, but three distinct Persons, not modes.
    Hope that helps.

  15. MJP says:


    All of us here are Christian of various backgrounds. We believe in Jesus Christ, born of the virgin Mary, who died on the cross to provide the ultimate and final sacrifice for God’s creation. We believe Christ is God’s only begotten son, who manifests himself through the Holy Spirit. We believe in the ground God consisting of the Father, Son, and Spirit, each completely separate but united as the single God, who made all of creation as described in Genesis 1.

    We may differ slightly in some areas, but by and large we believe in the core beliefs described above. We are further united in a desire to share the Gospel with those who have been deceived by Joseph Smith.

    Your inquiry is curious, though. As a Pentecostal, you surely agree with much of what I have written about our faith. We are not here to support LDS. We are hear to evangelize them to the Good News as presented in the Bible.

  16. dreamer says:

    Ok, MJP.
    I have a question for you.
    Pretend that you have a daughter and she fell in love with LDS guy who has a lot of knowledge about all the other religions but he likes where he stands. And he likes your daughter. What would you say?

  17. dreamer says:

    Falcon, thank you for the short answer, I wish I could write “short” answers like you.

  18. dreamer says:

    That information is very interesting,
    Sounds almost like a fairy tail.
    I never red it in the Bible.
    What makes you believe other books then Bible?

  19. MJP says:


    Being upfront with you: I think you have ulterior motives here. However, to answer your question, I would support my child. I would respect his/her choice to marry an LDS, and I would accept the LDS into my family. I would not have to agree with their decision to do so. This is part of loving our children: putting up with decisions with which we disagree.

    If my child were to convert to Mormonism, I would further disagree, but I would not disown him, nor fret about my own position in Christ. As you have said, I am comfortable where I stand, and stand their firmly.

    One thing I ask you to consider, though, is that we are called to stand for the truth and to spread the Gospel. You do not have to like that we are critical of another faith, but are you not being critical of us, in the same way you accuse us of treating LDS? Bear in mind also that while some of us can be strong in our language, we are also very understanding and patient. We are not mean people picking on those whom we disagree, though you may see it that way.

    If I have misread your intentions, forgive me, but your questions so far seem that you find us judgmental and with suspicion. If you think we are too critical, so be it. Come out and say it. If you have another motive, don’t hide it.

  20. falcon says:

    Dreamer……………….You asked MJP, but I’ll answer too.
    Actually I do have a daughter. As she was growing up, I made it my mission to “cult proof” her. She was a very vigilant kid and would always come to me and ask about various religious groups. We’d review basics of the Christian faith while comparing the group she had questions about. I also talked to her about the tactics and strategies these groups use to hook people.

    I don’t know if I understand this question:
    What makes you believe other books then Bible?
    What “other books” are you referring to? What do you mean by “believe”.
    When talking about the Bible I believe in both cognitive processing and the witness of the Holy Spirit. I also depend on the tradition and history of the Christian faith to draw on for foundational information.
    I’ve been very fortunate in my Christian walk in that I hold to the basic doctrines of the Christian faith but don’t get too excited about the distinctives of the various Christian groups. My rule is to “eat the meat and spit out the bones”.

  21. dreamer says:

    I am not critical and I don’t think you are.
    And I’m not trying to change anyone here.
    It’s great that we all have faith in God, and we all follow Jesus. I respect you all.
    I think I should go spread a Gospel to people who doesn’t know Jesus yet instead of learning LDS beliefs here. And sorry for my English.

  22. dreamer says:

    Well, by saying “other books” I ment all the profit books that you read or I don’t even know what you read, accept Bible. I don’t know anything about LDS. Maybe I sound so mean. But I’m not. I’m just enjoying a cup of coffee with you and I’m leaving.

  23. MJP says:

    Dreamer, then I do not understand your point. We here have found it in our heart to speak with Mormons who are deceived. And to put our position in a different perspective, we believe we ARE spreading the Gospel to those who don’t know Jesus.

    Mormons claim they have Jesus, but upon closer inspection, their Jesus is vastly different than ours. My first question to you was where to start, and that was intentional: where do we start? Its probably easier to lay out the similarities: their Jesus and ours both lived on earth approximately two thousand years ago, had an earthly mother in Mary, died on a cross and rose again. But that is about where the similarities end. Even these have important differences like how the Holy Ghost physically impregnated Mary and in what happened in the Garden of Gethsename (hint: Mormons don’t believe that Jesus’s death contributed to our salvation). Mormons believe Jesus saves, sure, but only after we have done all we can do. Mormons believe we can become like Jesus in a very real and literal way: a god unto ourselves. Mormons believe that the father, Jesus, and the ghost are separate beings united in a single godhead, akin to a committee called “god”.

    And they actively spread this and other messages that distract people from the true Christ. No, they do not know Christ, and they actively spread their false message. We here find that problematic and hope to provide a forum where people can look plainly at the LDS doctrine and compare it with Biblical Christianity.

    Given that we are all give different strengths and missions, we celebrate our differences and hope we are effective in fulfilling the mission of providing an accurate portrait of Mormonism and how it is false. We also stress that the goal is not just to turn people from Mormonism but to bring them to Christ. Its a touchy subject, sure, but we feel it worthwhile and pursue it.

  24. MJP says:

    Dreamer, if I may, in response to your post to Falcon, ask if you found out that Mormonism spreads a demonstrably false equivalent to Christianity, what would you say? Would you, as a Christian, care that they are perverting Christ’s words and mission?

  25. dreamer says:

    Well, you doing great job.
    I agree with you.
    Mormons and LDS believe there will be a genre (make/female) in heaven?

  26. dreamer says:

    I would probably scripture a lot of places to them from Bible, and that’s what they they think I should do last.

  27. dreamer says:

    And what about you? What would you say?

  28. MJP says:

    Dreamer, I am not entirely sure your question, but Mormons believe that there are multiple heavens. In the lowest level, people are eternally separated from God. The second level is where people get to be with God, but are not gods themselves. The third is where they become exalted to godhood themselves. Some may call this an over simplification, but it gives the basic set up of the concept of Mormon heaven and afterlife. Very few people find themselves in the first, though. You have to pretty much disown god altogether by blaspheming his name. To get to the third, you have to complete all the necessary Mormon actions and do all their works, and get the blessing of Mormon leadership. They have specific rites, rituals, and expectations that must be met– its not just faith alone, even though they claim faith leads one in the right direction– to be exalted (you have to do specific stuff, a checklist so to speak).

    Further, only men become gods, and women are there to help the gods and populate their worlds. In other words, women are there to bear spiritual babies, born through literal copulation with their eternal husband, of which there is only one but the husband can have many wives.

    As to those in the middle heaven, well, they are OK there, I guess. I really don’t fully understand the benefit if they are constantly envious of those who become gods. Sorta reminds me of the Bible story where the dead rich guy sees the dead poor guy and asks him to warn his family– eternal torment knowing what could have been. Doesn’t sounds very pleasant to me, but Mormons sell it as an OK place as far as I can tell. One, to them, could certainly do worse…

    I hope that answers your question.

  29. dreamer says:

    Wow you know a lot about Mormons. Thank you for sharing. And about wives. They have many wives in heaven or on earth? Because I heard it was thousands years ago like that but not anymore. (Not sure how it changed)

  30. Rick B says:

    I am off to work now, its shortly after 4am where I am at. Click on my name that is highlighted and it will bring. You to my website. That will answer about who I am, what I believe and what I’m about.

  31. Rick B says:

    just an FYI, if you have questions about what I say on my site or anything of that nature, write me their, this is not the place to ask about my site. This is all about Mormonism. Thanks.

  32. dreamer says:

    Just read this and wanted to share.
    “… Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”
    Isaiah 43:10
    I love those words.

  33. MJP says:

    Quoting scripture to Mormons is something not everyone fully agrees with. I guess we all agree it is useful and wise, but the problem is that Mormons claim the Bible has been corrupted such that it cannot be trusted. It was God’s word when it was originally penned, but due to some conspiracy or to simple errors even, the Word has been changed so much it is not reliable. Further, Mormons have their books of scripture that they go to to support their positions. So, the efficacy of quoting scripture alone is not clear.

    The Isaiah verse you quote is a great example, as I understand they take that to mean no other gods were formed on this earth.

    As to wives, well, they still believe in polygamy, though they don’t practice it anymore. Monson, their prophet could turn around tomorrow and say it is OK and you would start seeing it again.

    And that’s one of the things about Mormons we find troubling: what lay members say does not necessarily jive with official standing in the church.

  34. dreamer says:

    So this is Mormons coffee room. But there are no Mormons here? They don’t wang to talk to us?

  35. dreamer says:

    Bible was not corrupted. It is not possible. Many times in the history bibles were burned but God did not let His Word to be destroyed. People just don’t realize how strong God is. Why would God let His word to be corrupted. It sounds funny to me. Who do people think God is…

  36. Rick B says:

    it really is rare to see mormons post here anymore. They cannot handle the truth, and we have espoused many for lying, and I call them out when they lie and back it up with evidence. Sadly many Christians dont agree with me doing that, but to bad. Scripture does not simply allow us to be lied to and act like it never happened.

    Plus a topic done a while back was about mormons who were kicked off of here for breaking the rules, then coming back under new fake names. Me and falcon dont play games with them and they know it and dont like it.

  37. MJP says:

    Yet… they believe it has been corrupted. The premise for Mormonism is that it is a restored Christianity to what the original believers followed. There was a great apostasy where everyone fell from that faith and it was not until Joseph Smith restored it that true meaning of Christianity was restored.

    And as Rick just said, not many Mormons regularly post here any more.

  38. dreamer says:

    So let’s say it was corrupted what about Mark13:31 or Luke21:33…
    Let’s ignore it??

  39. dreamer says:

    I’m from different country, I may sound mean. But I’m not. I love all the people. And I wish no one of us were in any kind of spiritual confusion.

  40. MJP says:

    Dreamer, yes. That’s their message: ignore it.

  41. Mike R says:

    Mormon leaders have used Lorenzo Snow’s ” couplet ” to describe in what they believe about
    God and man in a little two line statement . They’ve proceeded to elaborate on it more fully
    in their sermons / publications , and in doing so that gives us a good picture of their swerve
    from the truth which God’s true prophets / apostles have taught His people in the O.T. and
    especially in the N.T. church . The apostle Paul had to remind those under his care to beware
    of following those who had succumbed to false teaching , men who had wandered from the
    truth and might even claim to be prophets or apostles , so Paul reminded everyone to be
    on guard for men making authoritative claims to persuade people to follow them . The New
    Testament details Jesus’ apostles instructions to their flock to help them avoid being fooled
    by men who had wandered away into teaching egregious beliefs . It was a serious warning by
    Paul then avoid those false prophets then and these type of messengers still arise today .
    They may be well dressed , act polite , and even talk about ” following Christ”, but upon
    comparing their teachings about God , Jesus , etc with what God’s true apostles in the Bible
    taught we can begin to ascertain the truth about them . Appearances mean little when it comes
    to properly testing prophets in the latter days — 1Jn 4: 1 , but sadly the Mormon people
    don’t seem to understand that fact .

  42. falcon says:

    Here’s the thing. Will LDS Mormons come right out and say what their church teaches about the nature of God? These folks, along with their religion, have a reputation for being dishonest when it comes to their ideas about God. They will defend themselves by saying, in their own way, that it’s just too deep for the average non-Mormon believer to “understand”. It’s a good way of avoiding the discussion.
    I’ve often told those LDS folks who show-up here that it isn’t that we don’t understand it, it’s that we don’t believe it. We understand it just fine. It’s not that difficult to grasp. It’s because we do understand it that we struggle against it as the Apostle Paul pointed out in the sixth chapter of his letter to the Ephesians.
    He said that we don’t battle against flesh and blood. That’s what the LDS need to understand. This is a spiritual battle. There are principalities, as Paul says, in the heavenlies. There are strongholds that need to be torn down by prayer.

    “The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”
    “We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.”
    “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.”
    “…..for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.”
    2 Corinthians 10:4

  43. dreamer says:

    Well, the reason why I got on this chat is because I met a Mormon guy who I really liked and I don’t know how to find him again. I thought he could be here but I guess not. ..

  44. Mike R says:

    Joseph Smith’s personal apostasy concerning God commenced not long after he started
    his church . It was the result of his desire for women , and he found in the Old Testament a
    perfect alibi to justify pursuing women to be his wives in addition to Emma his first wife .
    His emotions got the best of him . But he had to move very slowly with this new ” gospel truth”.
    One of the best ways for him to convince people publically that it was of God was to change his
    teachings about God , this he did when he declared that God was but a man , a rank and file man
    from another world who had learned enough to finally become Almighty God .

    Joseph”s untimely death prevented him from publically revealing polygamy and also more
    about his new view of God , but those he had mentored and also privately confided in like
    Brigham Young , put the capstone on his new doctrine about God .
    What Brigham revealed was that God was not only a married man , but after his public
    declaration in Utah in 1852 that the LDS were practicing polygamy , he allowed faithful men
    who he trusted go and teach that not only Jesus their Exemplar was a married man but He
    was polygamist as well , and to add weight to that teaching they also taught that Jesus’ Father
    also lived the same system of marriage , in heaven — polygamy .
    The reason for Joseph Smith in wanting to live polygamy became more clear , he personally
    convinced himself he could become a God so he changed his views about Him , but it was for
    Brigham Young and other prominent Mormon men to finish what Joseph had started to reveal
    about God , and thus the descent into apostasy about God which Joseph succumbed had
    come to fruition .

    God is not an man and Mormons males will never become Almighty Gods . Yet Mormon
    leaders have taught that very thing . So Snow’s ” couplet ” Mormons cite as a capsulized version
    of that teaching is a lie . The apostle Paul’s warning in 2 Tim 4:3,4 can aptly refer to the
    latter days prophets of the Mormon church .

    The Mormon people don’t deserve these guys .

  45. falcon says:

    Sometimes I don’t know if Joseph Smith even believed half the stuff he was selling. He was an idea-a- minute a guy who was really taken with his own ability to create and speculate. He differed from some guy just shooting off his mouth in that he had the personality to draw some folks in. After his death it was just a matter of the Mormons putting a fresh coat of paint on him. He became a larger than life figure who probably benefited from his own death in the sense that had he lived any longer, he would have self-destructed. In a way he did self-destruct. That’s what happens when a guy has some opposition but can use it to his advantage.
    Again, had he lived, what he was doing with his insatiable appetite for women would have come to light and it wouldn’t have been in the isolation of Utah. What modern day Mormons need to understand that while Nauvoo Mormonism still influences the LDS church, in many ways it’s a different religion. It’s some kind of hybrid outfit. Fortunately they dumped polygamy but they held on to the worst of Smith’s teachings which I think was his ever changing views of the nature of God.

    I don’t know but I think the LDS members like to target folks outside of the U.S., especially those from certain parts of the world, who they see as more easily convinced of the “restored gospel” and Joseph Smith.

  46. dreamer says:

    I don’t agree with you. Guy that I met was very respectful to my beliefs, my culture, and my faith. I met him in very hard time of my life. He was such a support for me. But I wish I could find him now.

  47. falcon says:

    I wasn’t there but I have a real suspicion regarding LDS folks. The whole point is to convert you. They are nice, sincere, devout people but their number one over-riding motivation is to get you into their baptismal font. I don’t want to rain on your parade but the LDS view you first and foremost as a prospect, someone to bring into the “one true church”. I know this may sound very cynical and suspicious but Mormonism i.e. the LDS church is a cult. The LDS church controls the life of its members via the temple recommend qualifications. Many see the LDS church as a positive in their lives and they like the structure and activities that it provides.
    I had a friend in the Peace Corp years ago. He was befriended by some MM and since he liked to play basketball and they had the only court on the island, they invited him to play……………………until they figured out that he wasn’t interested in the LDS church. That ended the invitations as they lost interest in him.

  48. dreamer says:


  49. Rick B says:

    Dreamer, I agree with Falcon. From studying Mormonism for around 17 years, I have seen what he is saying to be true.

  50. dreamer says:

    Ricky, do you study Mormonism for around 17 years for what purpose to help them to be saved ?
    What is your nomination? If that’s ok to ask.

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