Delivered From Postum

As Aaron wrote, the Deseret News reported the need for Postum fans to say farewell to their caffeine-free hot drink. The Salt Lake Tribune also reported on the story. The Tribune added a bit of information that the Deseret News didn’t have:

Goodbye Postum“Not long after its introduction, Postum became the elixir for faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who eschew coffee and tea. It became such a part of Mormon culture that instead of having a ‘coffee table’ in the living room, some families called it the ‘Postum table.’

“Recent government health studies have listed Postum as having high levels of acrylamide, a substance that can cause cancer and reproductive problems in animals and act as a neurotoxin in humans. But even such findings have not deterred fans.”

The Word of Wisdom, which prohibits Mormons from drinking coffee (among other things) is defined by the LDS Church as,

“A law of health revealed by the Lord for our physical and spiritual benefit. In this revelation the Lord commands us not to use alcohol, tea, coffee, tobacco, and harmful or habit-forming substances, and promises blessings for obeying this commandment.”

I’ve asked a question similar to this one before, but I’ll ask again. If the Word of Wisdom is “a law of health” with “physical benefits,” why have Mormons been drinking a cancer-causing substance for over 100 years as a substitute for a different substance (coffee) that research has shown to be “far more healthful than it is harmful”?

In this instance, rather than the prophet the American economy has driven a healthy dietary change for faithful Mormons. Goodbye, noxious Postum. And good riddance.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.

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44 Responses to Delivered From Postum

  1. Daniel says:

    (This is something I posted at the other Postum article and thought it might be relevant and/or create more discussion over here)

    I personally like to refer to the Bible for something that relates to this topic:

    Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared…who require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer…Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather, train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.”
    ~1 Timothy 4:1-5,7-8

    I am curious, how do LDS reconcile this passage with the WoW?

  2. Bill McKeever says:

    The Lord’s Command? “According to David Whitmer, Emma was disgusted at the spitting of tobacco juice by the elders in a school in Kirtland which was held above her kitchen. She said, ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin.’ The elders countered against Emma and the ladies by suggesting that the revelation should also provide for abstinence from the use of tea and coffee.” (BYU Professor Marvin Hill, Sunstone magazine, March 1985, 10:3/58).

  3. Megan says:

    So Postum can lead to cancer? This is so ironic! I always thought it was strange that LDS follow the WoW to have a healthy lifestyle, but ignore the health benefits of coffee and tea. Several articles over the past few years have highlighted the cancer-fighting properties of coffee and tea. Tea even has a natural form of fluoride that protects teeth. That being said, it is unhealthy to drink both in excessive amounts. But that’s why God gives us the gift of discernment. Red meat is a good example. Beef is an excellent food to get iron from, but a diet high in red meat can lead to cancer and high cholesterol. But we (hopefully) use wisdom in the frequency in which we eat red meat.
    I don’t know why tea and coffee should be off-limits, but unhealthy, empty-calorie soda is okay!

  4. Donny says:

    Megan, I don’t think the PRIMARY purpose of the World of Wisdom is as a health code. That’s a secondary purpose.

    The primary purpose is to demonstrate adherence to faith. A few things – tobacco, tea and coffee, alcohol, illicit drugs – are identified as off limits. It’s a minimal standard and LDS members agree as demonstration of faith. Many other faiths have similar codes.

    As for the secondary ‘health’ aspect, I have no doubt whatsoever that we’re better off living the Word of Wisdom. Especially if we live the whole thing – eat meat sparingly, lots of grains and vegetables. Yeah, I believe that.

    As for all the other bad stuff people can eat – well, sure. It’s better if you don’t. But if you make all of that a faith based law then it simply becomes a cull – a way to exclude people. And that’s not a good thing.

  5. Nathan16 says:

    Donny said:
    The primary purpose is to demonstrate adherence to faith.

    So magnifying callings, raising families, attending sacrament meetings, tithing, and in many cases serving on a mission somehow don’t demonstrate adherence to the faith? Or at least not as much as the WoW? I’m confused here. So can a person theoretically have faith and not practice the WoW? That doesn’t sound like official Mormon doctrine at all. I would say the WoW is yet another restriction placed on Mormons. Especially since there’s documentation showing that not all of the early prophets follow the WoW. It reminds me of Jesus telling off the pharisees for placing restrictions on their people and not following their own rules. “Rules taught by men,” I think the saying goes.

  6. fistfullofsteel says:

    Good thing the Lord blessed each of us with a brain, so he doesn’t have to tell each and every little thing to eat and not to eat. I could see it now, “in the last days, a drink which is called Postum shall be at your doors, do not drink it my sons, for you may get cancer from it” (terrible excuse for a scripture I know) And the Lord continues to list each thing for LDS members to eat and not eat. A strange idea for anyone to hold on to.

    Whether or not a member of the church decides to drink postum is up to the individual. If they know it’s bad for them, yet continue to drink, that’s a personal decision.

    You know the effects of tobacco were not found until long after Joseph Smith gave the revelation, only showing more so that he was a prophet of God.

    “For the past twenty-two years, the Surgeon General of the United States has identified cigarette smoking as the single most important cause of disease and premature death. Tobacco kills thirteen times as many Americans as hard drugs do, and eight times as many as automobile accidents. The worldwide cost in lives now approaches 2.5 million lives per year, with about 360,000 deaths annually in the United States. Over a billion people now consume almost a trillion cigarettes per year, an average of more than half a pack per day.” This is an old quote from an ensign article in the 80’s but I’m using it to prove a point

    There was wisdom in the WoW given almost two centuries ago. How many has postum killed? I’m sure the numbers are staggering…

  7. Rick B says:

    What I find sad is this, LDS claim the Hot drinks is Coffee and tea, yet they drink soup broth and Hot Chocolate, seems they pick and choose how to follow the WoW. Then the LDS say according to the WoW no Alcohol. Yet we Find People in the BoM drinking Wine, Jesus turned water to wine, Jesus said he will drink Wine with us in the new kingdom.

    For everyone who claims that wine had no Alcohol, then explain the parable of the Wine Skins and why Jesus was accused of being a drunk.

    Then God tells peter, Rise Kill and eat, do not call anything unclean that I made Clean. Jesus said, what goes in the mouth does not defile the Body, but what comes out, because it comes from the heart. So much of Scripture denys the WoW, that it tells me, if you want to follow the WoW or abide by it, so be it, just do not claim it is from God. Rick b

  8. Nathan16 says:

    fistfullofsteel said:
    I could see it now, “in the last days, a drink which is called Postum shall be at your doors, do not drink it my sons, for you may get cancer from it”

    Isn’t that what continuing revelation is for? 🙂

  9. Daniel says:

    I think Rick makes a great point: it doesn’t really matter how physically “good for you” or “bad for you” following the WoW is, it still isn’t scriptural. Refer to Matthew 15:10-20 and 1 Timothy 4:1-8.

    Jesus consistently taught that the heart was the issue, not the actions, and to me, “demonstrating faith” by adhering to the letter of the law (not drinking coffee) but not the intent (hot drinks…or in this case, a coffee substitute) doesn’t show me that your heart is in the right place. Rather, it kind of reminds me of a certain group of hypocrites that Jesus often spoke about (and not in a good way)

  10. dj1989 says:

    NEWS BULLETIN!

    Postum is NOT consumed by very many Mormons. I’ve been a Mormon my whole life. I’ve lived in many places, but for the most part in Utah, where I’ve been exposed to the family life of many Mormon friends. Guess what? NEVER have I come across a jar of Postum. NEVER have I even heard of people drinking Postum.

    We talk about the WoW occasionally in church meetings. Never is Postum brought up. Other things are brought up that relate to the topic, like vegetarianism, caffeinated drinks, etc… but NEVER POSTUM.

    However, Postum is a part of the Mormon culture… as a tale… what we sometimes call a “Mormon legend” (probably somebody’s grandparents, somewhere, drank it… who even knows anymore?). This alone would be sufficient enough for the local newspapers to report about it being discontinued.

    I’d like to thank the author of this blog for accurately portraying Mormon culture… again (sarcasm).

    I’d also like to confirm what Donny said about the WoW, as the health benefits to it are SECONDARY, to it’s primary purpose.

    I’d also like to leave a disclaimer, that this is one of those laws that, from my perception, isn’t lived very well by Mormons in general, because most Mormons have narrowed the law down to avoiding alcohol, coffee, tea, tobacco, & drugs. The law really does prescribe more than that.

  11. anisa says:

    Teeccino Caffeine-free Herbal Coffee is a wonderful tasting coffee alternative for those of you who are already missing Postum. They are offering a free sample of their website at http://www.teeccino.com.

  12. Sharon Lindbloom says:

    You know the effects of tobacco were not found until long after Joseph Smith gave the revelation, only showing more so that he was a prophet of God.

    Certainly the cancer-causing element of tobacco was not known in Joseph Smith’s day. However, tobacco was understood to be a “nerve-prostrating, soul-paralyzing drug, a fleshly, ungodly lust” at the time the Word of Wisdom was formulated. Likewise with coffee, tea and alcohol. Read a bit about the evils of tobacco as explained in 1836.

  13. Lautensack says:

    dj1989 wrote the following:
    I’d also like to confirm what Donny said about the WoW, as the health benefits to it are SECONDARY, to it’s primary purpose.

    What was the primary purpose of the WoW then?

    Lautensack

  14. dj1989 says:

    I’m almost hesitant to keep writing in the comments to this post, because the post itself is so utterly ridiculous (my frustration with this blog is coming out a little more than usual tonight).

    But, in response to Lautensack, look at the words in their entirety. It is easy to focus on words that refer to health in particular, but the promises of the Lord go beyond health, and it’s spoken of as “showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days”.

    This goes well beyond the body’s health. Read the final words in the scripture, and you will see promises that are not related only to health, per se, but to other things as well. So to say that the WoW is strictly, or even PRIMARILY, a health code is incorrect.

    I would agree with Donny, when he said that the WoW is to demonstrate adherence to faith.

  15. Rick B says:

    Sadly you must OBEY THE WoW to enter the temple, that is a really big thing. Rick b

  16. fistfullofsteel says:

    I would have to agree with dj1989 on how ridiculous I feel defending members who drink postum. You guys are making a bigger issue out of it than it is.

    Rick B, the only thing concerning the Word of Wisdom which will keep you out of the temple is doing drugs and drinking alcohol, as for coffee and tea, I do not know. Since mormons consider the temple a sacred place, it wouldn’t be a good idea to have a belligerent drunk, or someone whose mind is numbed by THC. If it is the case that coffee and tea keep you out of the temple, than there is a good reason for it, as faithful members of the church find temple attendance a deeply spiritual and uplifiting experience, they would naturally want to give up their tea or coffee habit to attend. Some commandments are lesser than others but all bring blessings into the lives of the individuals who live them.

  17. Daniel says:

    I still don’t see how you can reconcile the WoW with the Bible (as I wrote above)…to me, that is more of an issue than how “good” or “bad” for you tobacco, postum, coffee, etc. are.

  18. Lautensack says:

    fistfullofsteel wrote:
    “Some commandments are lesser than others but all bring blessings into the lives of the individuals who live them.”

    James the Brother of Jesus wrote:
    “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
    James 2:10

    In light of scripture, one of the LDS most quoted and trusted books of the Bible mind you, I don’t see how you can make such a statement.

    Lautensack

  19. fistfullofsteel says:

    Lautensack,

    Matt 22: 35-40

    “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    Even Jesus placed some commandments as being greater than others. This clearly shows that some commandments are more important than others, although that doesn’t take away that all commandments given are for our good. The Word of Wisdom has blessed my life and been good for me to live, and I am happy it was given.

  20. Rick B says:

    can you show me chapter and verse in the Bible where people could enter with or be kept out from the temple recomend. if not why not. Rick b

  21. Daniel says:

    “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    Here is my question for you: is it truly possible to follow one of those two commandments without following the other? How can we love God, and not follow the rest of his commands (John 15:14)? How can we love people, without truly knowing what love is, as shown by God’s love (1 John 4:7-8)? If you look at the law and the prophets, as well as everything Jesus taught, it is incredibly evident that it is the heart that Jesus cares about, not the specific actions. If your heart is right, your actions will be right.

  22. Donny says:

    Postum isn’t against the Word of Wisdom because it tastes like BURNT DIRT and nobody could ever drink enough of it to have to go pee – let alone DIE OF CANCER!

  23. pallathu says:

    I have a Mormon friend. He received a package in the mail for which somebody else paid. I asked him whether he would keep it or not. He said NO because he is a Mormon. The next day I saw him drinking COCA COLA (the classic version). Without me asking him a question, he told me “I have great headache.” This friend is from South America, so he and his family like coffee.

  24. fistfullofsteel says:

    The classic version of coke is good. I have been waiting a long time for coke 2, the sequel to classic coke.

  25. Rick B says:

    I’ve never tasted burnt dirt, but I assume you have since you stated it tastes like burnt dirt. Rick b

  26. Ralph says:

    Acrylamide is a very toxic substance and its effects are mainly by accumulation, but bolus dose does have an effect if its a large dose. I use it most weeks at work and in doing so I have to have 2 pairs of gloves on, full lab coat and at least goggles but preferably a full face shield. It is ‘created’ when sugars and other hydrocarbons are subjected to high temperatures, and thus it is found in french fries (yes MacDonalds and KFC), potato crisps, and other deep fried foods.
    As for the WoW, it was originally given as advice – not command, but it was adjusted so that even the weakest saint could follow it. It only became part of the temple recommend process (still not command) when the Saints were in Utah. Our prophets have told us that the ‘hot drinks’ mean tea and coffee and NOTHING else. We have been advised to steer clear of Coca Cola by some of our GA’s, but that is up to us. On my mission a lady who befriended us, but was not an investigator said that she read an article in a journal (she worked for Finnish Customs) saying that if coffee was discovered now it would not pass FDA approval because of the amount of different alkaloids contained in it and their effects on the nervous system. I do not have a copy of that article but she is a non-biased source. Yes I agree that they are finding ‘evidences’ of good things from coffee and tea but who is financing that research? I went to a conference with my research and they were saying that 30 grams of alcohol a day is good for the body – but it had to be wine. If it was the alcohol then why just wine? A year later at another conference the same people were saying that they made a mistake – it wasn’t the alcohol but something in the grape juice that was beneficial. Their recommendation after that was if you didn’t drink alcohol to not start but to eat grapes or drink grape juice and steer clear of alcohol because of its effects on the body. It turns out that the original research was funded by a wine company.

  27. Nathan16 says:

    Alkaloids? If that’s any reference to pH scales (as in alkaline substances), I haven’t finished my chemistry course in high school, but I know for a fact that coffee is acidic, not basic. Therefore alkaloids in an acidic substance… I don’t know. Besides that, I’ve heard from a number of doctors that coffee does indeed more good than harm, except for those with high blood pressure (but the WoW, by comparison doesn’t prohibit salt, which has exactly the same effect). Secondly, alcohol in moderate amounts is known to reduce blood pressure by dilating the blood vessels with negligible effects on the liver, and the wine helps because the fact that it’s made from grapes makes it healthier than, say, beer. If I’m not mistaken, you can easily find documentation of these studies in the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine, by far considered to be the most prestigious and reliable medical journals available.

    By contrast, most “articles”, even if they’re written by MD’s, are almost always exaggerated or simply false (one remembers the baseless aspartame scare in the early 00’s). These are usually funded by corporations, and therefore much more likely to be biased. JAMA and NEJM are far more careful about where the funding comes from for the studies they publish; they do have reputations to protect.

    But I may be wrong, I concede that. If that is the case, I’d love to see your documentation.

  28. Rick B says:

    Ralph said

    It only became part of the temple recommend process (still not command) when the Saints were in Utah.

    Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

    1. Church attendance
    2. Payment of tithes and offerings
    3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
    4. Moral cleanliness.
    5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
    6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

    In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don’t sustain the authorities of the church and don’t love the lord and our fellow man.

    Sorry if I put the Focus on the WoW (Really I am not)but it seems your Church makes it out to be a bigger deal than you LDS here believe or let on about. Rick b

  29. Ralph says:

    Nathan16, look up wikipedia for the definition and description of alkaloids. They has nothing to do with pH, they are mainly plant amine compounds like caffeine and nicotine. Some can be beneficial like the flavinoids found in grape juice, others are very toxic (like caffeine). Others have pharmaceutical benefits like the opioids and cocaine. As for the journals and who/how articles are written, I have done biological research for the past 10 years and I know that they only show what they want to show. There is one person that used to publish often in PNAS (another prestigious journal), but for 3 out of 5 articles he had an addendum published a few months later correcting his findings. So in order to properly research, I have learned to be very cynical and critical about an article while reading until I believe that it agrees with other findings. As for alcohol, it reverses metabolism – meaning that instead of synthesising energy from glucose it causes the synthesis of fat. It also counteracts testosterone and that is how it stops the progress of heart disease. But in doing this it also makes the body more feminine. In small amounts this change is not noticable but in alcoholics or people who drink alot it can be more pronounced.
    RickB, nice to see someone ‘bit at the bait’.

  30. Rick B says:

    As far as drinking Coffee or the use of Caffeine goes, I quoted lots of Scripture, if you choose to ignore what the Bible teaches, then thats your choice. But here is more anyway.

    Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    We could also re-word it to say,

    Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not coffee and tea, or caffeine; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    read all of romans chapter 14, it clearly speaks against the WoW as being the word of God. It is fine if you choose not to eat or drink certain foods, but do not say God spoke and said, the WoW is from him when it is not. Rick b

  31. Ralph says:

    For those earlier who laughed at the use of Postum over coffee here is a quote from Wikipedia – note the highlighted portion about coffee having acrylamide in it.

    Acrylamide in fried or baked goods is produced by the reaction between asparagine and reducing sugars (fructose, glucose, etc.) or reactive carbonyls at temperatures above 120oC. Acrylamide in olives and prune juice comes through another process. It has been suggested that environmental pathways, such as the breakdown of the herbicide glyphosate (Roundup), are sources too. Smoking is also a major acrylamide producer. Estimates for the proportion in the diet coming from the consumption of coffee range from twenty to forty percent. Acrylamide cannot be created by boiling, and very few uncooked foods contain any detectable amounts. Browning during baking, frying or deep-frying will produce acrylamide and over-cooking of foods will produce large amounts of acrylamide. Acrylamides can also be created during microwaving.

    The FDA has sampled a number of foods for acrylamide and the results are on this webpage.

    http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/acrydata.html

    As for the scriptures in the Bible – they had no bad substances in those days except alcohol, and in all references to drinking alcohol the Bible only says wine, even though beer was around then. In the references to wine it says in moderation and not to get drunk. In fact in the Bible it says that drunkenness will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 5:11 & 6:10). The WoW says the same, but these days our leaders have asked for a total abstinence of alcohol. As for other substances, 1 Cor 3:16-17 says that our bodies are temples and if we defile them we will be destroyed. When God told Peter to eat unclean beasts it was a vision to tell Peter that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles – nothing at all about actual eating habits. The last scripture you used (Rom 14:17) was your interpretation only.

  32. Nathan16 says:

    Ralph,
    I stand corrected on the health of coffee and such. But, as LDS members have established, the health factor is secondary.
    You say Rom. 14:17 was Rick B’s interpretation. However, his interpretation is plausible to me. How would you interpret it?
    When your leaders expand the commandment that the Bible gives from moderation in alcohol (no drunkeness) to no alcohol whatsoever, it looks like (and I think it is) your leaders are adding to the Gospel.

  33. Rick B says:

    Ralph, when you say nothing bad was back then, your really saying the almighty God who knows everything is so stupid He cannot know about Coffee.

    Then when you said God told peter to kill and Eat it did not really mean to kill and eat, then why Did God tell peter to kill and eat, and Peter said I have never eaten anything unclean? Then God told Peter AGAIN, To kill and eat. You correct, it also was speaking about gentiles.

    But to say the scriptures I used are wrong, is wrong on your part. Jesus said it’s NOT WHAT GOES INTO OUR MOUTHS that defile the Body, but what comes out. Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven is not about food and Drink, when Jesus says food or drink or what goes in the mouth is never spefeic in details about the food or drink. Rick b

  34. Jacob5 says:

    Well, I am certainly feeling a little indigestion.
    Listen, this is a commandment that I firmly believe in. And for anyone who believes in revelation and that there are prophets today as I do, then for any who are to proscibe to the LDS faith that is one of the commandments we have. All non-members are not bound by such a commandment.
    Our bodies are temples, and if there is a substance you feel is bad for you body, then don’t do it. I personally don’t pound on people who don’t follow the word of wisdom because it isn’t their faith.
    So, if you follow it good, if not, it is your choice.
    But the whole “my scripture proves your scripture wrong” routine will not solve any questions. Couldn’t those of the Jewish faith say that all Christian scripture is wrong because of such-and-such a verse.
    I will finally say just one thing. Beyond all argument about the pros and cons, the validaty or invalidaty, give it a try. Learn for yourself by experience. I mean, unless it goes completely contrary to your own personal diet and health code, try it out. Put it to the test.

  35. Rick B says:

    Jacob, say what you want, but the Bible is clear, The WoW is not from God and denys the Bible. This is a different teaching and is added to adding to Gods word saying God spoke when he really did not. Then add to that, I should from your church’s teachings, you must follow the WoW to enter the temple to be saved in the highest heaven and you must Follow the WoW to prove you are following all God commanded. So it is a bigger deal than your letting on about. Rick b

  36. Jacob5 says:

    Well, didn’t the ancient temple of Solomon have restrictions on who can go where and who can do what. I mean, what does it mean to have a temple. Or what about when Moses prepared the people to hear the voice of the Lord. Didn’t they have to follow certain procedures for that. The point is whether you are a member of our church or not, there are commandments we are given. But I still say that your use of the Bible to try to explain to us that our commandments are wrong when we believe in a modern prophet and continued revelation is a pretty flimsy argument. Becuase with that mentality we should be following even older prescripions. When was the last time you ate pork, or did you cast out anyone from your community lately who has a skin disease?
    Argue this all you want, but this our belief and unless you can give us further revelation that it is no longer a commandment, you have no leg to stand on.

  37. Rick B says:

    Jacob said

    When was the last time you ate pork, or did you cast out anyone from your community lately who has a skin disease?

    You really do not understand the Bible do you. Read Acts, God told peter all food is now clean, we can eat what we want to, food does not make us unclean. As far as a skin Disease, those people could not enter the temple, but that also has been done away with. Read your Bible, search and you will see this. Rick b

  38. Daniel says:

    Jacob, read Hebrews 9, it talks about how Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant (the OT with the temple and all being the old covenant)

    Also, read Matthew 15:10-20 and 1 Timothy 4:1-8 for why I believe the WoW is not scriptural.

  39. Jacob5 says:

    I would like to see where it says that the temple itself is no longer necessary. That scripture talks about how all the sacrifices in the past had been done away with since the final and eternal sacrifice of the Christ. But there is no verse that says the temple itself is to be done away with, but the ordinances performed.
    “But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.” (Matt. 15:13) Those scriptures do not say that any further revelation or commandments cannot be made. Christ was chastising the Pharisees for setting up “traditions”. “Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” (Matt. 15:3) The Pharisees were so concentrated on not only not breaking the law given by God, but not even to come close to it. So they set up many traditions such as you couldn’t place an egg next to a fire on the sabbath because that would be work. There were only a certain number of steps you could take on the sabbath. 1 Timothy 4 tells me nothing different from the Word of Wisdom. “Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;” (D&C 89:12) “Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:” (1 Tim. 4:3-4) I see no confusion between the two, unless you want to just go ahead and say, “Well, Joseph Smith just copied the bible again.” I see no discrepency between the two scriptures.
    So it all comes down to my belief as Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and I believe the Word of Wisdom is a commandment. Again, prove that wrong with any further revelation you might have on the subject.

  40. Daniel says:

    Jacob, the translations of the Bible that I have read say “abstaining from certain foods which God has created.” I use the ESV and the NIV, both of which use a very similar wording. Either way, I don’t think it was meant to be limited to meat. And even if it was, contextually we know that there were certain groups who took issue with Christians eating meat, because of the possibility it had been sacrificed to idols. Paul is writing and saying that nothing that God created should we be commanded to refuse, so long as we are giving thanks and glory to God. That’s a far cry from, “you can eat meat, but only sparingly and in in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” Do you, in fact, eat meat only in times of winter, cold, or famine?

  41. Rick B says:

    Jacob said

    I would like to see where it says that the temple itself is no longer necessary.

    Jacob, a few things here. In the OT the only people that could enter the temple were Jews, gentiles are non Jewish people. Your not a Jew, I am guessing, so that would make you a gentile. Then in the NT, we read the Account of Jesus saying the Temple will be destoryed and not One brick will be left upon another.

    After that, their has been no more temples as of yet, Paul would meet in houses or down by the river. LDS Might have temples, but not the Jews. their is a very large Jewish commuinty by where I life and they will tell you they have no temple. Then my Church has missionary over in the land of Israel and my church has gone over for both tours and to do street witness about 12 times, they will tell you, the Jews have no temples as of yet, none since the temple Jesus spoke of was torn down.

    So if their has been no temples in over 2,000 years but it is required we have them and use them then we have a serious problem. Rick b

  42. Jacob5 says:

    Well, that is another argument right there as we believe in an apostacy. I am sure you will take notice on my saying that. I agree, the temple of Herod was destroyed, it also replaced the temple of Solomon that was destroyed.
    There have been many other times in the past that a temple did not exist on the earth. However, as we see from the old testament, whenever the Lord had organized his people, namely the Israelites, and they were following the commandments of God, they had built a temple. First it was the tabernacle that was built, and then eventually the temple of Solomon. But whenever the people went astray as a whole they had lost the privilege of the temple. When the Jews were taken by the Babylonians, and later when they were scattered by the Romans. Christ’s revelation certainly came true and to this day that temple is gone. But this still in no way says that temples were not needed, simply to say that the Jews had lost their temple.
    And you are right, We believe in building temples in our faith, because we believe it is important to our faith. Also with our faith, for the times that the earth was absent of temples, that does not negate the possibility for those who lived during those times cannot have the blessing of temples. So, sad that there were times that it didn’t exist, but not a serious problem.

  43. Rick B says:

    Temples are not needed, read the account from Adam to the flood of Noah. It is believed to be about a two thousand year time span, not one temple ever mentioned. Then, after the flood till after moses brought out the people from Egyept, their is no temple, that time frame is about 1,000 years maybe a little longer.

    If temples are needed, why were their no temples for at least the first 3,000 years of human history. Then why are the Jews only allowed in the Temples, and unlike how LDS run their set up, only the High priest could enter the holy of holies once a year.

    Your temples allow anyone to enter if they get the temple recamend, that is not was not how the Lord temples were run in the OT. Then as to David, God even told him, He does not need a temple, yet David insisted, so God allowed his son Solomen to build it, it was not God going to David and saying, David gather up the stuff so your son can build me a temple, I want/need one. Rick b

  44. Jacob5 says:

    You are right, this is not exactly how the temples were run in the OT times. At that time, a great deal of the work was maintaining all the sacrifices that occurred on a regular basis. Those were finished with Christ’s sacrfice, and also you are correct, the holy of holies was only entered into by the high priest. However the outer area saw many visitors who came to perform various parts of the Mosaic law. The Jews were the only ones who entered because they were the covenant people, and were following the commandments given by the Lord.
    As to why there was not temple for many thousands of years. From the time of Abraham down to the time of Jacob there was not a single place that a large mass of the believing people did not exist. It wasn’t until the time of Moses did a tabernacle (a movable temple) was created. So, where are all the temples, you ask. Good question. For periods of time where there was no temple in existence, and a man needed to converse with God or accomplish a great task (Abraham’s almost sacrifice of Isaac, Moses’ first instructions from God, as well as his receiving commandments from God) a mountain was regularly used for those certain necessities.

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