On July 24th (2008), at a sunrise service commemorating the first Mormon pioneers to enter the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, LDS Seventy Earl Tingey talked about some of the admirable traits of those first settlers. In addition to doing their duty, being willing to sacrifice for their beliefs, and raising “a righteous posterity” with faith and vision, Mr. Tingey praised these people for being “obedient to their prophets.”
Two weeks earlier (July 8, 2008), the BYU NewsNet web site published an article titled “Follow the Prophet.” In this editorial it was argued that “active Mormons” cannot and will not “disagree with the Prophet’s counsel.”
The context for the editorial was the June 29th statement by the LDS First Presidency asking Church members to do all they could to support California’s proposed marriage amendment defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Some members had publicly disagreed with the Church directive; hence BYU NewsNet’s clarification of what it means to be an “active Mormon.”
The editorial stated,
“Regardless of their rationale for disagreeing, any ‘active Mormon’ sustains President Thomas S. Monson as the prophet, seer, revelator and mouth-piece of God. ‘Active Mormons’ raise their right hand during General Conference and sustain him and the other 14 apostles as the leaders of God’s church on the earth today. In sustaining, they are not voting for them or agreeing with their position, they are promising to support and listen to them.
“Consequently, ‘active Mormons’ know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. No matter how diligently someone reads their scriptures, attends church or pays a full tithe, unless they sustain President Monson, his counselors and the other 12 apostles, they are not ‘active Mormons.'”
The idea expressed in the editorial, that when the prophet speaks the debate is over, likely came from an address delivered at a Church-wide fireside meeting in 1978. There, Elaine Cannon, Young Women President, told the women of the Church,
“Personal opinions may vary. Eternal principles never do. When the Prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.” (Ensign, November 1978, page 107)
The idea rang true with Church leadership for in the August 1979 First Presidency Message N. Eldon Tanner titled the message “The Debate is Over” and wrote,
“I was impressed by that simple statement [of Mrs. Cannon’s], which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us…
Whose side are we on? When the prophet speaks the debate is over.” (Ensign, August 1979, page 2).
Mrs. Cannon’s words also appeared in “Lesson 12: Follow the Living Prophet,” from the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, page 39.
This is all in keeping with what an LDS prophet has spoken. President Heber J. Grant once said,
“Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it…” (quoted by Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1960, page 78).
It’s hard to accept as good counsel the directive to do what the LDS prophet says “even if it is wrong.” Of course, if Mormons understood the prophet to be infallible, that would be one thing. But the Mormon-on-the-street is quick to tell critics that the prophet is just a man, capable of giving his own opinion without identifying it as such. In that case, doing whatever the prophet says “even if it is wrong” becomes of serious concern. President Grant seemed to think, though, that the prophet was infallible; for after giving the above counsel he said, “But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.”
Heber J. Grant died in May of 1945. The following month the LDS magazine Improvement Era had the following:
“Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the ‘prophets, seers, and revelators’ of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy….It should be remembered that Lucifer has a very cunning way of convincing unsuspecting souls that the General Authorities of the Church are as likely to be wrong as they are to be right. This sort of game is Satan’s favorite pastime, and he has practiced it on believing souls since Adam. He wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to ‘do their own thinking.’…When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” (June 1945, page 354)
This sounds a lot like “‘active Mormons’ know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over.” If these teachings are to be believed, any Latter-day Saint that does his own thinking is not only unworthy of the title “active Mormon,” but he is unwittingly cultivating a spirit of apostasy.
You might consider bringing this up the next time a Mormon objects to the teachings of a Latter-day Prophet with, “That’s just his opinion.”
Early on in my involvement on Mormon Coffee, I noticed a distinct manner of thinking among Mormon contributors. It’s almost too simple to say that it’s a type of wanting to have it both ways, cake and eat it too tpe thinking or some other such description. I believe it was Walter Martin who said that Mormons are capable of thinking rationally about all other areas of their lives except when it came to Mormonism. That’s why they appear to be flakey and dishonest. Anything to keep the fantasy going.
We get the prophet speaks for God routine and then when the writings and proclamations from the Journal of Discourses are quoted, Mormons squeal like a stuck pig. The prophet spoke ending plural marrage in 1890 and the leadership kept on with the practice for ten or fifteen more years until their backs were up against the wall. The Mormon prophets and their dutiful followers have a real problem with prophetic accountability. Prophetic utterances proven to be false or that do not come to pass are dismissed as human opinion. Mormons attempt to establish doctrine by revelation alone and end up with such beauties as Adam-God. Mormon prophets use prophetic utterences to control people (see Joseph Smith and his sexual exploits). When people don’t question the leaders you end-up with things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The leaders can’t be questioned is Cult 101 indoctrination.
“This is not an issue the Church stance will evolve on; this is a fundamental part of Latter-day Saint doctrine endorsed by the Quorum of the Twelve, the First Presidency and the Prophet himself.”
You mean, like Adam/God, polygamy, and Blacks and the priesthood?
Adam/God was never doctrine.
Polygamy, Blacks and the Priesthood were based on this principle…ie continuing revelation. A good summary would be last conference on Three Presiding High Priests. It is the same principle that allowed Moses to slaughter the Middianites, aganist the Law that he instituted…do you have a problem with that? Probably not because things were different in OT times, right?
From a sermon delivered by Brigham Young in the Salt Lake Tabernacle, April 9, 1852 (JD 1:50):
“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do…”
Brigham Young, Deseret News, June 18, 1873:
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me–namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the one who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth…”
If a living “prophet” teaches it, does that not make it “doctrine?” Certainly those listening to him thought it to be so. Since they died believing Adam is God, are they eligible for the CK, in your opinion, DOTH?
Spencer W. Kimball, Church News, Oct. 9, 1976:
“We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are…alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such for instance is the Adam-god theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”
Since these two “prophets” directly contradicted each other, which one is speaking the truth? Or is neither?
Oh, and uh, yeah–things WERE different in OT times. Much different. It was prior to Christ. Jews were living in a THEOCRACY of which Yahweh was the head. He was the Lawgiver, Judge and Jury–He had a bloodline to protect! And since all of creation is HIS, he can do with it what He likes, including killing the bad guys.
So no, the same law doesn’t apply we don’t live by the same covenant, there are no priests or prophets required. We are under a new and better covenant, with Jesus Christ as our only and forever High Priest (read Hebrews for more information on that; also the words of Christ regarding prophets in Matt. 11:13).
I did read your conference talk and not surprisingly, the “three high priests” were nowhere referenced under the New Covenant brought by Jesus Christ, but only LDS doctrinal sources.
So I suggest examination of the point I was making rather than throwing up red herrings about Midianites and the Old Covenant. They don’t apply here.
Defender,
It is preposterous to think that continuing revelation backtracks itself. It is not possible to have polygamy as a revelation only to have it revoked, and then to look forward to it in order to become gods. This is not line upon line, but line upon line subtract the same line.
The leaders of the LDS Church are dangerous. They control the general membership with the fear-talk about apostasy. Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and such has been the case with every LDS leader who has followed. To say that Adam/God was never a doctrine is a flat out lie that you have been fed. You have been led astray, Defender. The “even if it is wrong” clause should raise red flags for you.
Missusslats
If you read further in the first quote you gave, BY stated that he could not say any more on the subject at that time, indicating to me that there is more involved in it than Adam (the first man) = God (Heavenly Father). To show you what I mean, 1 Cor 15:44-46 calls Jesus “Adam”. If you go into Biblegateway and compare all of the English translations on that site you will see that all of them say the same thing. (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. “Adam” is not just a name, it is a word meaning ‘man’ and I have also found that it is a title meaning ‘first man’. When looked at in this light some sense can be made from what BY is saying. But to echo DOF, it was never doctrine, not even in those days. In fact some of the people on this blog would probably tell you that there are recorded heated debates from meetings of the apostles in those days discussing these statements.
As far as there being no need for a prophet these days, Jesus taught that a house that is against itself will not stand. He also taught that His house is a house of order. Then He taught that no man can serve two masters. We also find in the Bible that the scriptures are not for personal interpretation, meaning that the only interpretation is God’s interpretation not man’s. Why am I saying this? Because there are many different religions claiming to follow Christ and can show from the Bible their doctrine is correct. We believe that we still need a prophet to be the mouthpiece for God on this earth and to interpret scripture correctly so we are following only one master – God, through His appointed prophet. This will allow order to be instilled in God’s house and the correct interpretation of scripture.
Hey Ralph, what has Thomas Monson said that was prophetic? What did Gordon Hinckley ever say that was prophetic? What about Howard Hunter? These men are allegedly prophets and yet never make any prophetic utterances. They are supposedly men who are the “mouthpiece for God on earth” and they are shown to have been teaching doctrines contrary to Scripture. All they do is show up on Larry King Live and do ribbon cuttings at new temples.
“Because there are many different religions claiming to follow Christ and can show from the Bible their doctrine is correct.” That is patently false. false religions like the JWs and mormons and others take Scripture out of context to support their teachings, but the whole witness of Scripture invariably leads to Christ, Christ who is God saving men who are sinners by His grace, through faith.
Mormonism depends on absolute obedience to the prophets, because if you start to question them and find out they are wrong, you may start questioning the office. If you question the legitimacy of the office, maybe Monson isn’t a prophet, maybe Hinckley wasn’t, and go back far enough and you start to realize that Smith wasn’t a prophet. The whole thing is a house of cards.
The Mormon “prophets” are goofballs each and everyone. They are totally clueless and it’s embarrassing that anyone listens to their drivel. Joseph Fielding Smith May 14, 1961 announces to stake conference in Honolulu: “We will never get a man into space. This earth is man’s sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it….The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.” He went on in 1962 to instruct that this view be taught to “the boys and girls in the Seminary System.” On July 1969 U.S. Astronauts are first men to walk on the moon. Six months later Joseph Fielding Smith becomes church president.
Again from the “still inside” perspective:
It takes a lot more than “doing our own thinking” it takes “doing our own praying and getting our own witness”.
While we will insist that the prophet is the only one who can recieve revelation on doctrinal issues for the chruch, we will also insist that we have the right and obligaion to get our own spiritual direction from God himself on the matter.
People often assume that doctrine from Ward to Ward and from Stake to Stake throughout the world is so spot on consistent because of the manuals and strong top down direction. That is really not it at all. We are consistent because the direction from God through the HS is always consistent, and the spirit is consistently present in our meetings.
Arthur,
In the ‘Gospel Doctrine’ book it says “When a prophet speaks for God…”, indicating that he is not always speaking for God. How do we know when/if he is speaking for God? In the D&C it says when he is speaking by the power of the HG.
It also states that “A prophet is also a special witness for Christ, testifying of His divinity and teaching His gospel.” What exactly this means I do not know, but some members believe that this means that he has seen the resurrected Christ with his own eyes.
Then it goes on “He calls the unrighteous to repentance. He receives revelations and directions from the Lord for our benefit. He may see into the future and foretell coming events so that the world may be warned.” Note the word I bolded ‘may’. It does not say ‘have to’.
Lastly the book says ”when we speak of “the prophet of the Church,” we mean the President of the Church, who is President of the high priesthood”
So a prophet does not always have to ‘prophecy the future’. But he does have to witness Christ, teach the gospel, call repentance and direct the Church in the Lord’s way. Pres’s Monson, Hinkley and Hunter have all done these things so they have fulfilled their prophetic callings.
Falcon,
Good point with your history. As you said Joseph Fielding Smith was called as the prophet after man had reached the moon (or did we get there?) so anything he said before that time was his own opinion, not a prophetic utterance. I knew about this comment years ago, its in a series of books called ‘Questions and Answers’ written by Joseph Fielding Smith. I wonder if any of Jesus’ apostles knew we were going to put man on the moon? If they did they must have written it down because it would have been prophecy and the Bible says that prophecy is for the edification of all. I’m sorry but I can’t seem to find it anywhere in the Bible, I must have misplaced that section.
Ralph,
Your starting to sound like a typical Mormon, and I had such great hopes for you. Apostles and going to the moon? If we really did go to the moon? Can’t find going to the moon in the Bible? And your attitude that you know all this goofy stuff the prophets put out and it really makes no differences to you continues to reveal more about your mindset. I would say Ralph, you’ve lost the argument and you’re running on fumes.
CLUFF,
Did that dude that kidnapped Elizabeth Smart receive revelation from God? He certainly thought he did. How about Dan Lafferty who butchered his sister-in-law and neice? Here’s one: “Thus Saith the lord unto My servants the Prophets. It is My will and commandment that ye remove the following individuals in order that My work might go forward. For they have truly become obstacles in My path and I will not allow My work to be stopped. First thy brother’s wife Brenda and her baby, then Chloe Low, then Richard Stowe. And it is My will that they be removed in rapid succession……” Dan Lafferty received that from God.
This is the result and the legacy of what Joseph Smith started with his emphasis on revelation at the expense of God’s Word. I know CLUFF you’re having a high old time thinking you’re hearing from God and I hate to break the news to you, but you’re not. The Bible calls it prophesying out of your own imagination. Follow the leaders, they’ll never lead you down the wrong path. Right!
Ralph: ‘How do we know that he (the prophet) is speaking for God? We know when he speaks by the power of the HS..’ this kind of thinking drives me just nuts, and I asked Cluff the question, “how do we know that the HS DID testify of JS , and he comes back with his own testimony that Jesus is the Christ, hence he must have the power of the HS,etc: small problem, we could put a Moonie, a JWitness, and ten other groups in the room and they ALL would ‘testify that Jesus is the Christ’. Do some, all, or none of these folks have the Holy Spirit?? Cluff, I believe the verses you gave me, but I don’t think they can be used exactly as you did for a litmus test, God seems to allow people to mumble on and on about “Jesus” this and “Christ” that, I don’t think it’s going to wash at the judgment seat of Christ (not the judgment seat of Joseph, I might add). Wouldn’t you agree?? Doesn’t it matter which Jesus, which Christ we are talking about?? Back to Ralp: do YOU want to weigh in on the test you gave us above?? how does saying “when they speak in the power of the HS” help us?? I mean, when is that, and how would we know?? I know Cluff’s answer. Your point about the moon stuff and the Bible is puzzling: how does underlining what is NOT in the Bible help your case here? It is your guy, not ours, who got predictive about the moon. How is the bible silent on this helpful to what you are trying to say? More later, thanks, GERMIT PS to DOF: Polygamy, blacks, and the priesthood are based upon this principle (continuing revelation); that’s a good quote and one that summarizes a HUGE problem for your missions work, I’d just like that info to get out there in the general populace so people know what they are getting UP FRONT.
Ralph,
During General Conference each year, do they not sustain all of the 12 Apostles and the First Presidency as Prophets, Seers and Revelators? Was Joseph Fielding Smith a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles in 1961? If he was, then he was also considered a Prophet and he should be held to that same standard.
I recently came upon a scripture that for some reason I never heard as a Mormon.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
I don’t think we need prophets today. Jesus was the last Prophet and his word is the final say. “When the prophet speaks the debate is over.” That is a true statement, when I hear a Mormon prophet speak, I now run the other way.
Soy, you are so right! Hebrews 1 and the verse from Matthew I cited earlier where our Lord tells us that John was the last prophet were two that, conveniently, I was never directed to read in all my years of LDS Bible “study.” Thank you for putting the entire verse up for all to plainly see. No prophetic interpretation necessary to understand that one!!
Also, to Ralph:
Ralph, I agree. Biblical interpretation is not open to men, no matter what label they put upon themselves (prophet, apostle, etc.). The God who calls Himself “The Truth” will not contradict Himself. God said if we abide in His word, we can know the truth; not that we can’t possibly understand His word and therefore need another fallen human to interpret for us.
A Christian whom I respect wrote, “If God is the God of truth, then what He inspired will be consistent with itself.” So which part of “Adam is God” and “Adam is not God” is consistent with itself?
Did the God of Truth inspire BY or SWK? Or neither? Certainly it cannot be both.
So the question is, “By what spirit are the Mormon prophets speaking and from what spirit are the rank and file getting their personal revelations?” I think it would be a good idea for our Mormon contributors to reveal to us Christians, who the spirit is by whom they and their prophets speak. We know that the Mormon god is an exhalted man and that the hope of each male Mormon is to become a god also. We know that the Mormon Jesus is a created being, the by product of a union of a mother god and father god. We also know that Mormons believe that Jesus was conceived physically by a sexual union between the Mormon god and a virgin named Mary.
So our Mormon friends here are telling us they hear from the spirit. We know that Joseph Smith was involved in magic arts and favored scrying with a rock as a medium for communicating with the spirit world. Mormons have occult symbols on their Mormon issued underware and also on their temples. Mormons perform occult rituals, borrowed from Free Masonry, in their temples. Our Mormon friends have also informed us of the veil they try to see through in order to have visual contact with spirits.
So as you see, I just ran this all through a decision matrix/grid to get a fix on who exactly our Mormon friends and their prophets are getting their revelaitons from. The Lord God forbids the practices that Mormons engage in. He is a jealous God who will give people over to their desires. Mormons need to repent and turn to the living God.
Ralph,
“It also states that “A prophet is also a special witness for Christ, testifying of His divinity and teaching His gospel.””
This describes any one who witnesses for Jesus Christ as the resurrected LORD, and who tells of His good news that we are justififed by faith, that the law kills, the Spirit gives life and we are saved by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary (not in Gethsamene, another false LDS teaching). Your church leaders (I cannot refer to them as prophets because they aren’t) do not qualify. They have distorted the message of good news into one of works righteousness. It seems that you worship the office of prophet more than the true and living God. We fight for God; you and the other LDS fight for false prophets. Even though you all want to defend your prophets by ridiculously creating qualifiers for their utterances, they have uttered lies for the whole world to see. Adam/God was a doctrine no matter what you want to say. Your prophet spoke it, which raises another issue: you don’t really honor your prophets. You accept only that which is palatable to Christianity, but deny their status of prophet when they utter the ridiculous. Come to the true and living God who was revealed to us in the Person of Jesus Christ, for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. He calls you into His eternal presence based on you believing what He has done for you; He died to save you while you are still a sinner because you can’t save yourself. These prophets of yours do not spread this message; their message is different. Their message puts burdens on you, and such a message is not from Christ.
I will gladly use one of my precious posts for the day to say to jackg, AMEN MY BROTHER!
Ralph,
Good study of the word Adam. It is as you say, in Hebrew, Adam means “man”. In the Corinthians verse, it does speak of the first Adam(from the Garden of Eden, husband of Eve) and the last Adam (Jesus). Now to get back to the quote by BY..
“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father ADAM came into the GARDEN OF EDEN, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought EVE, one of his WIVES, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do…”
I capped the most important parts. How on earth would you believe from that message that he is speaking about Jesus (i.e. living in the Garden of Eden, with his Wife Eve)? Unless you would go as far to say that Adam is actually Jesus. But even that wouldn’t work, because in Mormonism, Jesus is our brother, NOT our FATHER as BY stated.
Do you wish to retract that statement you made now? BY was obviously not talking about Jesus because he spoke of things Adam was involved in (the Garden, Eve) and he also said Adam is our Father and our GOD, the Only God with whom we have to do. Adam is indeed our father in the sense that he started the human race, but even you would disagree that “Heavenly Father” is not Adam (which directly contradicts the BY’s doctrine that Adam, from the Garden of Eden, husband of Eve is God himself.) And yes, I did say it is doctrine, because BY himself called it doctrine –
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular DOCTRINE which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me–namely that Adam is our father and God”
I guess you’re deciding not to “follow the prophet.” What a crazy old uncle BY was.
Contradictions I see:
#1 “‘When a prophet speaks for God…’, indicating that he is not always speaking for God. How do we know when/if he is speaking for God?”
However, “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done” “When the prophet speaks the debate is over.”
It does not say, when the prophet speaks under the direction/power of the HG… for is it not believed that being ‘so close to Christ’ the prophet is pretty much always influenced by the power of the HG? Does he need to start every speech or conference with “By the power of the Holy Ghost, I say…”?
#2 “We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.” (bolding mine)
And yet, “The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” Mormonism is full of contradictions like these.
Deut 18:20
Seems to me like BY and all these other guys really liked Joe’s idea of absolute power by authority of god and expounded on it to their hearts’ desires. Modern day “prophets” don’t expound much because people are smarter and more aware of their ruses now -they can’t afford to be as radical. I thought it interesting back in 1996 how Hinckley’s “Proclamation to the World” about family was “revealed” just after there was a federal law passed regarding domestic abuse. Sort of like lifting the priesthood ban in light of the church almost losing tax exempt status on their properties.
One more thing. “if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it…” Sounds like absolute control to me -like Falcon said, that’s Cult 101.
Amen, jackg!
Ralph,
“In the ‘Gospel Doctrine’ book it says “When a prophet speaks for God…”, indicating that he is not always speaking for God. How do we know when/if he is speaking for God? In the D&C it says when he is speaking by the power of the HG.” When do you know when he is or is not speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit? Does something light up on his lapel? Or, as it seems more likely, when he says something goofy or embarrassing he must not have been speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Back in my days before I became a fo-mo (former mormon), we were told that when the prophet makes an utterance that amounts to thus says the Lord, we know he is speaking prophetically. So basically when he is speaking ex cathedra, he is infallible but when he is expounding on matters of doctrine otherwise he can be completely wrong. I would think that even when not making prophetic utterances he would have a grasp of basic doctrines of the faith. It is also a convenient way to brush aside statements made with a dogmatic assertions, that in context and to the audience they were speaking to would be considered authoritative.
“So a prophet does not always have to ‘prophecy the future’. But he does have to witness Christ, teach the gospel, call repentance and direct the Church in the Lord’s way. Pres’s Monson, Hinkley and Hunter have all done these things so they have fulfilled their prophetic callings.” Hmm, so really they don’t do anything special at all. Pretty much anyone could do that if they are a decent speaker and have some organizational skills. Being a prophet is easier than it seems in the Bible!
We must all remember that we are judging Mormonism by Christianity standards. Mormonism has it’s own standards. And those standards are that nothing counts if Mormons don’t want it to. Doctrine, prophetic utterances, scripture and “sacred” rituals are not stable. Mormons love this and call it “revelation”. What a deal. The leaders can never be wrong. It’s just a new revelation. Anything can be rationalized. History can be rewritten. Reality is whatever the leaders say it is. And the faithful won’t question the leaders.
falcon said:
“Did that dude that kidnapped Elizabeth Smart receive revelation from God? He certainly thought he did.”
The difference between the guy who kidnapped ES and JS is simple. The HS has told 10 million people that JS was right. I doubt that the HS has anything favorable to say about the other guy except in his own delusions, and in the weak minds of those he can dominate.
You like the Bible so:
Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets…
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Most false prophets don’t last beyond their own generation because their power is in their personality and persuasive abilities. JS still has new coverts today even when he is not around and the leader of his church is “boring”. Just ask my kids. The only reason he is still gaining converts in spite of all the noise in the world about him (thank you very much Mormon Coffee) is because the HS still speaks on the matter.
Why doesn’t Matt 7:20 say “In the last days there will be no new prophets”? Instead it tells us how to tell the true ones from the false ones.
GRCluff,
Having converts today, even after the founders death, does not make a religion true. Mohamed is dead. L. Ron Hubbard is dead. Charles Taze Russell is dead. Mary Baker Eddy is dead. And yet, the religions they founded live on. You can find members of these religions who attest to the truth and the inner peace found by following these religions. Yet, by definition, they cannot all be true. Have you prayed about whether “Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures” by Mary Baker Eddy is true? Or if the Koran is true? If not, why not, if that is your standard for determining truth? These false prophets did all the thinking for their members too and they are gaining converts today, long after their deaths. There has to be a better standard than an inner assurance of truth – otherwise no truth claim could ever be really tested – it is one testimony against another in a deadlock. I have read about the scrutiny the Bible has been subjected to, evaluated the evidence and found that the Bible stands up well, understand how my theology of salvation by grace alone through faith alone is derived from the Bible, AND have an inner testimony of the truth of the Bible and the divinity of Christ. I can see how the Bible is true – Israel exists, Jerusalem is an actual city, etc. Without the testimony of truth both outside myself and inside, my faith would be worthless. If I relied completely on personal testimony I could be deceived.
falcon:
I like your second post today– you got every glaring disagreement you have with us all in the same post– AND you started with a good question!
The question was:
“By what spirit are the Mormon prophets speaking and from what spirit are the rank and file getting their personal revelations?” I think it would be a good idea for our Mormon contributors to reveal to us Christians, who the spirit is by whom they and their prophets speak.”
By some ironic twist of fate, you have completed your post with the correct answer to your question! It was:
“Mormons need to repent and turn to the living God.”
The spirit by which the Mormon prophets speak and the spirit by which the rank and file get their personal revelations is:
(get ready now I am about to reveal to you Christians where the spirit can be found)
ONLY found as Mormons repent and turn to the living God.
I think that might work for mainstream Christians too.
Hi, I’m new to this site, but was very intrigued by the discussion today. I wanted to see what Mormons do with I John 2:26-27 “These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.”
Ralph and Arthur: “so they really don’t do anything special at all..” wow, if that isn’t the case!! Ralph, your head guys are so utterly unremarkable, even putting the predictive thing aside. Living mouthpeices of God?? I’m not going to get ‘caustic’ here, and I probably needed that gentle rebuke, but PLEEEZE, my idea of purgatory would be a long conference where I have to listen to these guys “guide the flock”. Not every leader has to be Ronald Reagan or FDR at the microphone for something to be true, but I’d have to say I’d expect more from the one true church. If it’s any comfort, the JW conferences ,from my very limited experience (snuck into one), is every bit as boring: they were like fourth rate refrigerator salesmen, and were so alike, I thought I was seeing a continuous feed of the same 7 min. clip. In fairness to the argument: exciting or dull, it all comes down to ‘does it line up with the plumb line, the Bible ??’ How else would we know, Cluff, that what we THOUGHT was the HS wasn’t last nights spicy Rueben ?? And in that regard your leaders, past and present, are remarkably similar, and ODDLY enough, Cluff and I probably agree on that. How weird. GERMIT
I’m going to keep pounding this theme because it’s the essence of the difference between Christians and Mormons: Who is the Mormon god that they claim to be hearing from? It is not the God of the Bible. A cursory examination of the Mormon doctrine of God and the occult orientation of their founder and the contined embrace by Mormons of Masonic rituals and occult symbols reveals that Mormons are tapping into a force other than the God of the Bible. That’s all that has to be known regarding the prophetic utterances of Mormon prophets and leaders past and present. The Mormon concept of revelation and confirmation by God is not Biblical. That’s not all that surprising since the tactic of the enemy is to discount the Bible and present a picture of God that is in direct opposition to reality. To some it’s seductive, but to those who have not turned their will over to the leadership of the Mormon church, they can find the means of escape.
Cluff said:
“The HS has told 10 million people that JS is right.” This is a false statement, although I concede that you did not do it intentionally. The church claims 13 million members but the truth is (per Dr. David Stewart Jr’s report at http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html ) there are almost as many people dropping out of active membership as there are joining and basically the church’s net growth is zero. Nearly two-thirds of ‘Mormons’ are recorded as inactive and over 60% of new converts drop out within the first year. In 2004, the church performed just over 240,000 baptisms -it’s lowest number since 1987.
The problem is that when fo-mos decide to leave the Mormon faith, most of them do not write exit letters and therefore are still on record as members. In actuality, even of one does send an exit letter asking to have their name removed, it is NOT removed from the records entirely -the record only indicates that you are no longer a member and sometimes these people are contacted by missionaries, home teachers, etc long after they’ve left. That’s where they get their numbers from and it does not represent the truth.
Additionally, even IF the HS has told 10 million people that JS is right, it has told BILLIONS of people that Biblical Christianity is right.
Sorry, this post is a bit off-topic but that statement kinda lit me up and I had to respond. Thanks for indulging.
Germit,
“my idea of purgatory would be a long conference where I have to listen to these guys “guide the flock”.” You have no idea, the General Conference broadcasts were sheer torture of listening to these old guys ramble on a TV screen while parents tried to keep their kids under control. I recall vividly one priesthood conference when one of the general authorities was talking to the young men about, ahem, “nightly emissions”. It was the most disturbing things I have ever heard, and he was being deadly serious.
Andrea, “The problem is that when fo-mos decide to leave the Mormon faith, most of them do not write exit letters and therefore are still on record as members” Very true, and the problem is that many of the fo-mo’s don’t turn to Christianity, they leave faith altogether. That is why it is important to not just show why mormonism is wrong but why Christianity is the truth and the only way. Whether people stay in mormonism or turn their backs on God, Satan is pleased.
I stated on another post that somebody claiming to understand the Book of Mormon from statements from ex-mormons and selected passages is like a muslim extremist claiming to understand the United States from statements from Jane Fonda and Michael Moore and broadcasts from Al Jazeera. When somebody who is very active in any organization leaves and stridently fights against that organization- very often there is something not right with that person. This is almost a rule among people who go from faithful member of the LDS church to active foe. It is almost a rule that when a highly active member leaves on “intellectual” grounds, he or she has usually committed adultery or some other serious sexual sin. There are very few exceptions!
DJ, you are just plain wrong in your analogy. If you want to know about communism, do you ask Alexander Solzenitzen or Fidel Castro? Does one get the truth about Mormonism from the brainwashed or from one who has escaped the brainwashing? I for one am free to think and evaluate with my God-given MIND and my newly-found respect for Truth–not my “burning bosom.”
As for your statement: “It is almost a rule that when a highly active member leaves on “intellectual” grounds, he or she has usually committed adultery or some other serious sexual sin.” That statement is nothing more than “kill the messenger” mentality. I NEVER SINNED IN THE WAY YOU ARE SUGGESTING. BUT IF I HAD, AND IT GOT ME OUT OF THE FALSE CULT OF MORMONISM, I’D BE MOST GRATEFUL FOR THAT SIN! Your remark merely shows you are running out of substantive arguments.
D: IF it were the case, and this is hard for you to get your mind around, that the LDS religion was FALSE, then the ‘something wrong with that person’ could well be that they could no longer go on living a lie. You have to admit this as a possibility, and yes, if yours was the true gospel, rejecting that would mean some kind of problem, but playing the sex card ‘with very few exceptions’ is just plain weird, to me. Those who have left orthodox christianity certainly would NOT all, or nearly all, fall into that category, as far as I know. You are going to take some heat for that post: prepare your pill box. Interesting to me that you don’t see organized groups of ex-presbyterians or ex-lutherans out there…hmmmm.
Andrea:
Having served as a missionary, I am aware of the requirements a new convert must pass before he/she can be baptized. One of them is a spiritual witness that JS was a prophet. The fact that many new converts drop out means the church is demanding and many people find it difficult to keep up. It is the demanding nature of the church that keep the rest of us engaged in the first place. It is a faith thing for us.
The fact that 10 million– maybe even 13 million people have been baptised makes my point. Their current state of activity is not relevant.
Christ taught the same concept in Matt 13. The people you speak of are mentioned in verse 21 and 22.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Personally, I hope to be like those in verse 23.
GRCluff,
“The fact that many new converts drop out means the church is demanding and many people find it difficult to keep up. It is the demanding nature of the church that keep the rest of us engaged in the first place. It is a faith thing for us.
The fact that 10 million– maybe even 13 million people have been baptised makes my point. Their current state of activity is not relevant.”
It is not that being a mormon is so hard, it is that people realize they have been deceived and that Smith is not a prophet. How is it not relevant that a huge percentage of mormon converts turn out to be false converts? These are people who, like you, testify that the Holy Spirit told them the book of mormon was true and now they realize it is not. That just proves the unreliable nature of the mormon testimony.
Seriously, do what the book of James says and pray for wisdom, not whether a book is true or not. If God grants you wisdom and humility, you will find that you are following a lie. It is hard, hard on the family, hard on your pride, hard to humble yourself and realize you have been deceived but better to humble yourself now before it is too late.
Germit: The credibility of witnesses is vital in any court when examining evidence. This is not an insignificant point. Those who are very active and turn completely against the LDS church and criticize its leaders publicly are almost always guilty of sexual sin. Of course those are not details they share in newspapers or in their books or websites. And the church would never disclose such things. I have personal knowledge of soooo many of these cases. I know you would never trust someone like me making such statements. And again, it would be very inappropriate to offer examples, names, etc. But this is a very well recognized fact- the correlation is stunning!
DJBrown, if your accusation against this group of people is accurate, and it is a “very well recognized fact” about which “the correlation is stunning,” surely there are studies which will support your claims. Please provide facts and sources or stop propagating what amounts to nothing more than unfounded gossip.
DJB: Like Sharon said, I’d say you’d have to cough up something more than just anecdotal stories that demonstrate precisely nothing. My own experience in reading ‘exit stories’ from people who seem to be straightforward about all manor of things regarding their lives, both personal and spiritual, does NOT confirm what you are saying. The big deal seems to be the ‘cognitive dissonance’, to use a psych term, that is the difference between what they have PERCEIVED reality to have been, and their NEW understanding of reality, is just too great: they realize that they have been deceived about….and this starts as one thing, and becomes, as I’ve described, a pulled upon thread that just keeps going and going. The CLAIM that I’ve read over and over is that such and such (polygamy, racism, the church’s need to control, etc) JUST DID NOT RING TRUE. I think your ‘sex story’ is just smoke at the show, DJ, and as an aside, I think it common for controlling groups to often ‘shoot those leaving’ with some kind of ‘bad goods label’ on the way out, so that OTHERS still inside get the picture: ‘don’t let this be you’. If you can document your ‘well documented fact’ , we’re all ears. GERMIT ps to Cluff: the fact that your group would pad the books to the max, I think that is Andrea’s point, is telling. It’s not the numbers, it’s the HONESTY OF YOUR LEADERS AND ORGANIZATION. You guys come across like a Fortune 500 company that is worrying that your stock is slipping, always the APPEARANCE SO IMPORTANT. The less than 100% honesty is an apologetic against you. GERMIT
Let’s see, two-thirds of those on the LDS rolls are not active in the Mormon church. Fifty percent of returning missionaries drop out. That’s a lot of sexual promiscuity! I’m wondering why Joseph Smith didn’t get the boot for his sexual sins? Oh, we’re back to the topic at hand…..follow the leaders. DJ, if your charge is correct, that’s exaxtly what all these exMos have done.
DJ
You said “It is almost a rule that when a highly active member leaves on “intellectual” grounds, he or she has usually committed adultery or some other serious sexual sin. There are very few exceptions”
I would like to see any support for this statement. Being a member for 23 years and being in EQ presidency, Bishopric, etc. I have known many who have left the church and it was not for what you claim. They did research and came to the conclusion that things just do not add up with the church teachings.
Examples for you who are going to ask:
1) Varying accounts of the 1st vision
2) No evidence ever of the BOM history found.
Just the other day another piece of history mentioned in the Old Testament was found. See link.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=71386
3) Book of Abraham
There are many to list. I think these former/inactive brothers and sisters have been guided by the HG to search outside the box of Mormonism and get other points of view. They are not leaving, for many of them, because of sexual misconduct, but because they have found that Jesus in Christianity is different than Jesus in Mormonism. God bless DJ.
missuslats and andrea,
Thank you for your words of encouragement. Praise the LORD for using such weak vessels as myself.
GRC,
The LDS Church is demanding because most cults are. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not demanding because His yoke is easy and His burden is light. I would encourage you to read Colossians, especially chapter two, to learn what Paul thought of groups that enslave people with a system that appears to be holy, when it really isn’t. I see the Mormon Church aptly described in this. I’m looking forward to your take on it.
DJB,
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I was excommunicated for adultery while in the bishopric. My story is not one that is noble by any means; however, my story is not about how wonderful a person I am, or how obedient I was or wasn’t–my story is one that tells of God’s grace and mercy who saves sinners while yet sinners. I learned that I don’t have to be perfect to be saved; in fact, it works opposite: one is made holy and perfect after justification by faith, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit. My story is that God saved me BECAUSE I was a sinner. You see, the LDS Church could never save me because it teaches that grace only comes after all I’ve done; the truth is that grace abounds throughout our lives despite what we have done. I am ashamed of my behaviors, but I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ because it has saved me. The Spirit has transformed me, and I no longer walk after the flesh, and PRAISE BE TO GOD! A word of caution for you: don’t deceive yourself, if you have broken one law you are a law breaker, same as I. There is no degree with sin because sin is sin and destroys, but the blood of Christ gives life. I share my story because it glorifies God, and reveals His love, grace, and mercy, and you can also experience it, and be freed from your sins and your bondage to a cult that enslaves its followers. “Amazing grace,how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!” PTL!
It’s always a cop-out to blame people who leave the Mormon church on sexual sin. This is just another mind ploy that the Mormon Church engraves on its people so they will shame a person for leaving the Church when it’s simply not true. The worst sin one can sin in Mormonism is apostasy – leaving the church. Add this in with the other planted thought and you have a lot of pressure for people to stay in Mormonism when they don’t know of the real Jesus of the Bible which is very different than the Mormon Jesus that can liberate them.
People get out of Mormonism because they come to the realization that the Mormon gospel is impossible to live/achieve. It doesn’t bring salvation. To our Mormon friends here ask yourself these questions:
Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? (Moroni 10:32)
Are you now fulfilling the command to be perfect? (3 Nephi 12:48)
Have you done all that you can do? Are you doing your best? (2 Nephi 25:23)
Isn’t it possible to keep all the commandments? (1 Nephi 3:7)
Are you keeping all of the commandments? If not, what is the result? (D&C 25:15)
Are you clean? Are all your sins forgiven? (Alma 11:7)
What sins are allowed? Where won’t you be? (D&C 1:31-33)
Have you forsaken all of your sins? Have you abandoned them? (D&C 58/:42-43)
If you sin again, what happens? (D&C 82:7)
Where will you end up? (Alma 34:30-35)
If you died right now do you know you’d have eternal life? Do you know all of your sins are forgiven? Christians who serve the Jesus of the New Testament can answer “YES!” to those questions right now! We want Mormons to be able to say that too, but they can’t in Mormonism.
The Mormon gospel is not good news. The gospel of the Bible is. That is why Mormons leave the church.
Jackg, that took a lot of courage to say that. Praise God for his mercy, grace and forgiveness (1 John 1:9) and welcome to God’s family!
Mormons, why isn’t the song “Amazing Grace” in the LDS hymnal? Think about it.
Berean
jackg,
I had to use my third and final posting of the day in regards to your post. I commend you for openly sharing, what I am sure, is a painful admission. I don’t know ,if I was in the same circumstance, that I could do it. I say that especially because your admission was in regards to what is a typical Mormon charge regarding people who leave the Mormon church. Paul talks about Christ saving sinners among whom he considered himself the worst of all. The poower of the Gospel is that it does save sinners and it’s about second (and more) chances. God understands our condition very well and extends His grace to us. The Mormon god isn’t quite as generous. Mormons never know for sure about their status before God. For Chirstians, the shed blood of Christ is powerful enough to cover our transgressions. I willingly accept it and the fact that through my faith in Jesus, I have eternal life. My salvation and the assurance that comes with it is a gift from God. I do my best to lead a godly life but I know who I am. Without Christ, I’m a miserable, wretched sinner lost and on my way to hell. But God has provided a pathway to eternal life through His Son Jesus.
The Mormon leaders who gave you the boot, have no sense of the peace and assurance you now have.
JackG: AWESOME POST. to those operating out of some kind of hierarchy of sin, your post would SEEM to give ammo to DJB’s argument. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your post points out how futile the LDS faith is, EVEN IF A PARTICULAR SIN PROBLEM WAS IDENTIFIED. Even if DJB was right with his ‘sex stat’, which is highly questionable, the LDS answer is wholly unable to redeem and make free.(I can only imagine how tortured you were in your options for ‘getting help’ while you were still LDS) Your response is probably much more powerful than going round and round on speculative sex statistics anyway. Great job, and you’ve made clear that our God can, and does, save to the uttermost the lowest, the lost , the least. Like me. Your honesty and courage are life giving. GERMIT
JackG’s post made me think of something the pastor in church said on Sunday. And this statement is biblically backed up –
“Jesus liked people who were nothing like Him. And people who were nothing like Jesus liked Jesus.”
That’s powerful. It shows just how much Christ desired to be around the “lost”. Think of the story of the adulterous woman that was brought before Jesus and the people accusing her of adultery wanted to throw stones at her as the law mandated. They asked Jesus what should we do to this woman? (Trying to trap Jesus into contradicting the law). Jesus Christ asked them that if any one of them are without sin, then cast the first stone.
Those men and their self righteousness, quick to point out the sins in other people, were greatly humbled that day. All of them left. Christ had asked the woman who is still there to condemn her. She saw that no one else was there and said no one. Christ said “neither do I.” Jesus was the only one there with the lawful right to throw a stone, yet he did not. He offered her grace that day, giving her the opportunity to come unto Him.
So I think before we start judging why people have left their faith, Mormonism or otherwise, we need to realize that we are guilty of all sin just like them, and regardless of what LDS authority has to say, Christ and the Holy Spirit do not turn their backs on them, always reaching out to all. Where sin increases, the Grace of God increases all the more.
Amazing grace indeed.
OK, I’m totally new at this, so please be gentle with me.
Mormons do not believe that the prophet speaks his own words independently and of his own will and volition, but rather that the prophet is the mouthpiece of the LORD on the earth.
As it says in the OT in Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
The Lord has spoken through his servants the prophets throughout history. For example, the ten commandments were given to the people, through Moses (a prophet), from God.
I believe that God is a living God and still speaks to the inhabitants of the earth by the mouths of his servants, the prophets. (keyword = servant)
Beautiful posts Jack and Jeffrey! I was reminded just yesterday that ‘Christ never condemned the sinners, he condemned the self-righteous’, and the incident Jeffrey just relayed shows that gorgeously.
God bless!
DJ, what an ignorant statement: “Those who are very active and turn completely against the LDS church and criticize its leaders publicly are almost always guilty of sexual sin.”
I have heard that before: there must be some sin, or someone offended them, or some other factor. Anything but coming to realize the deceit of mormonism. I get why you say it, because it makes you feel more secure in staying with a lie. If someone left, it couldn’t be because they found the truth and it wasn’t mormonism. I still resent the implication towards myself and others. People who are, in my experience, highly active that leave are the ones who dig deeper into the church and discover the lies that surround mormonism. When I left I was a membership clerk, and literally half of the names on the membership rolls never came to church and a large percentage of them wanted nothing to do with the church. Were they all adulterers? Not hardly, but they all realized one way or another that they had been deceived.
Sorry DJ,
But I have to agree with the others. The blanket statement you made about those who leave the church is mostly due to sexual sin is incorrect. As Arthur, I was ward clerk for a few years and I saw numerous people come and go from the church records.
Now this brings in Arthur’s comment ”…literally half of the names on the membership rolls never came to church and a large percentage of them wanted nothing to do with the church. Were they all adulterers? Not hardly, but they all realized one way or another that they had been deceived.”
Sorry Arthur but this is also an incorrect generalisation. Not all realised/decided that they were ‘deceived’. Some were incensed by various things from what a leader said on a topic, to an argument they had with another member and even to how helpful or unhelpful other members were towards them. Some left just because they were lazy and didn’t want to come to church each week and wanted nothing to do with the church because of the ‘pestering’ to come back. I know of one person who converted from Muslim and a few weeks later he packed up house and moved without telling anyone where he was going – it turned out that some of his friends back in the Middle East found out he had converted to Christianity (yes their words not mine – they class LDS as Christian) and threatened his whole family’s life (who were living over there) because of it.
But really, to me the ‘growth rate’, retention rate, and activity of a church, including the LDS church, does not mean anything about how true it is or not. The parable of the 10 virgins is discussing the true believers in Jesus Christ. Half were prepared and went to the wedding; the other half weren’t prepared and missed out. This means that some of the true believers will not make it to heaven, so from this, I understand that stats about members are irrelevant.
GRCluff said “The fact that many new converts drop out means the church is demanding and many people find it difficult to keep up”
I find it fascinating that the FAIR conference (happening right now) is discussing how Mormons should resolve cognitive dissonance in order to prevent members from leaving the church when they run into information that competes with their current belief system. They are even discussing “inoculation” – how to provide information ahead of time, little-by-little, to new members so that members are not surprised when they encounter information (such as Mormon Coffee) that provides evidence that conflicts with their world view.
From what I gathered from blogs on the FAIR site and Life on Gold Plates, Michael Ash (author of “Shaken Faith Syndrome”) was pointing out that historically many Mormons have rejected any conflicting information either without investigation or by resorting to their spiritual testimony. The author appears to have been encouraging Mormons to try to accommodate and synthesize competing information into their world view in order to create a new paradigm shift that includes the new information rather than rejecting it altogether and leaving the faith.
The emphasis seems to be upon moving toward a “less rigid” belief system and accusing others of fundamentalism. On the FAIR blog, people are commenting about how having “too rigid” of beliefs can create crisis for a person when scientific or historical evidence proves contrary… It’s encouraging to see Mormons really trying to be honest about the heart of the issue. I truly hope members won’t be brainwashed by this attempt to re-frame the whole problem as one of having “too rigid” of beliefs. I’m happy there is satisfying archaeological, historical, scientific, and spiritual evidence to support my faith. Sure, my faith exceeds the evidence, but my faith is not in contradiction with the evidence.