The October 2008 edition of First Things contains a lengthy article titled, “Is Mormonism Christian?” The article is in two parts. The first was written by LDS Seventy Bruce D. Porter and takes one position; Christian professor and author Gerald R. McDermott wrote the second part, concluding with a different opinion.
After lamenting the poor secular reporting on the LDS Church, Dr. Porter writes:
“All this has led to considerable misunderstanding about what Latter-day Saints believe about the central subject of Christian religion: Jesus Christ and his atonement for sin. One can find innumerable assertions that Mormons do not believe Jesus was the messiah, that they do not believe he atoned for the sins of the fallen human race, and that they believe salvation comes by works.
“All of these statements are false, and they reflect incomprehension of Mormon beliefs and doctrine.”
Dr. Porter continues by explaining various LDS beliefs including:
“Latter-day Saints revere the Bible as the word of God…Our most criticized departure from mainstream Christianity is our acceptance of another work, the Book of Mormon, as the divinely revealed word of God…A vital aspect of Latter-day Saint theology—and its most obvious difference from traditional Christianity—is the belief that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance…Latter-day Saints affirm the reality of the virgin birth…Our beliefs regarding the savior’s mortal life are based on a literal reading of the biblical texts…he organized his Church and delegated authority to his apostles to administer it after his ascension…that he suffered in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, that he died for the sins of mankind on the cross, and that he was resurrected on the third day.”
Dr. Porter includes much more about Christ’s atonement, the sinfulness of mankind, and salvation by grace via “receiving Christ as the redeemer and exercising faith in him.” He concludes,
“Are Mormons Christian? By self-definition and self-identity, unquestionably so. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms that it is a Christian-faith denomination, a body of believers who worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and who witness that salvation is possible only by his atoning blood and grace.”
Nevertheless, Dr. McDermott holds a different position. He writes,
“…the true distinction between Mormons and non-Mormons on revelation is not whether God still speaks to his people but whether he spoke to Joseph Smith in a way that reinterprets what he said to the first-century apostles. The question of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the first of two principal distinctions between the Latter-day Saint faith and orthodox Christian theology.”
Dr. McDermott provides a run-down of history and teachings attributed to Christ which are found in the Book of Mormon then asks,
“What are we to make of this history of Jesus? Can we believe that the same Jesus who preached and healed and was crucified in Palestine came just a year or so later to the Americas and said and did all these things?
“There are four reasons this is unlikely.
Dr. McDermott details these reasons with clarity, but I will only list them:
- Corroborating witnesses/lack of witnesses
- Contemporary witnesses/witness removed by centuries
- Inconsistencies between the “Palestinian Jesus” and the “American Jesus”
- “Intratextual inconsistencies” between the Book of Mormon Jesus and the Jesus Joseph Smith developed over time.
He explains,
“At the end of his life, in his King Follett funeral sermon (1844), Joseph Smith prophesied against the Trinity, saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods. While this is now official doctrine, there are no signs of this rejection of the Trinity in the Book of Mormon.
“In fact, quite the opposite.”
Dr. McDermott demonstrates the presence of abundant Trinitarian teaching in the Book of Mormon and concludes,
“If the prophet responsible for the Book of Mormon made cosmically significant changes in his view of God over the course of his prophetic career, one has less confidence in the reliability of his prophecies, particularly those that purport to provide a new history of God on earth.”
Dr. McDermott continues his analysis of “Is Mormonism Christian?” with a discussion about the nature of Christ, summed up here:
“…Mormon beliefs diverge widely from historic Christian orthodoxy. The Book of Mormon, which is Mormonism’s principal source for its claim to new revelation and a new prophet, lacks credibility. And the Jesus proclaimed by Joseph Smith and his followers is different in significant ways from the Jesus of the New Testament: Smith’s Jesus is a God distinct from God the Father; he was once merely a man and not God; he is of the same species as human beings; and his being and acts are limited by coeternal matter and laws.”
When LDS Seventy Bruce Porter concludes his part of this First Things article, he changes the question from “Is Mormonism Christian?” to “Are Mormons Christian?” He declares his verdict that Mormons are Christians who belong to a church that is part of the Christian community, a church made up of “a body of believers” who worship Jesus Christ. He writes,
“To the title Christian a critic of Mormonism may add any modifiers he deems appropriate—unorthodox, heretical, non-Nicene, different—but blanket assertions that we are not Christian are a poor substitute for informed argument and dialogue.”
Based on the information outlined by Dr. McDermott, to the title of “Christian” as it relates to Mormonism, I would add the simple modifier “non.” But I would be very careful before saying the same thing about an individual Mormon. Dr. Porter has blurred the distinction between the religious system and individuals. This is yet another difference between Mormonism and Christianity. The question, “Is Mormonism Christian?” means one thing to Dr. Porter and another to Dr. McDermott. The LDS website clarifies,
“Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology”
But for orthodox Christians, theology, or Christology, is really a core issue. Whether discussing religions or individuals, the paramount question is always “Who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15)
Nevertheless, any discussion is useful, and this First Things article is very helpful and well worth reading. Dr. McDermott has definitely not made any “blanket assertion[s]”; he has provided a well-informed and thoughtful argument to answer the question asked by the editors. I leave you with his closing paragraph:
“The intent of this essay is not to say that individual Mormons will be barred from sitting with Abraham and the saints at the marriage supper of the Lamb. We are saved by a merciful Trinity, not by our theology. But the distinguished scholar of Mormonism Jan Shipps was only partly right when she wrote that Mormonism is a departure from the existing Christian tradition as much as early Christianity was a departure from Judaism. For if Christianity is a shoot grafted onto the olive tree of Judaism, Mormonism as it stands cannot be successfully grafted onto either.”
Berean said:
“The simplest way to define what a Christian is is to ask the question that Jesus Himself asked in Matthew 22:41-42:
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?”
That’s the million dollar question and depending on what your answer is will determine whether or not you are entitled to that label/title.”
I whole heartedly agree. Main-stream Christians are disqualified for the following top 10 reasons because they believe:
1. Jesus is an unknowable, unreachable spirit God defined by the greek doctors of the Nicean council. NOT the God of the Bible.
2. Jesus is alive in heaven but sees NO reason to talk to man. Turns his nose up to us as we pray.
3. Jesus is not the son of God at ALL, but concieved by the Holy Spirit.
4. Jesus prayed to himself.
5. Jesus abandoned his body like so much trash, when he was done with it.
6. We should all be one in substance like Jesus is one with his father. (John 17:21)
7. The witness of the Holy Spirit is no witness at all.
8. That man’s intelligence and ability to translate and interpret ancient scripture should supercede the Power of the Holy Ghost.
9. You can sin all you want as long as you have accepted Jesus. (this is where the whoremaster comes in)
10. Accept a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.
Brigham Young was right, you ARE the whoremasters. Like the BoM says:
1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
Cluff,
Jesus died for ALL of OUR sins, and yours too!
By the way, the BoM states that the Spirit was with Mary, not some dude.
W/LOVE
Cluff…playing the anger card again. Wasn’t it you who quoted the verse that noone can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit? You can’t hand me over to the Devil that easy my friend…ha!
Jesus is still in His resurrected, glorified body and I’m sure He still talks to His Father like He did here on earth. Don’t you worry about that.
The witness of the Holy Spirit is that Jesus has been raised from the dead. As for the Scriptures I think Paul said it best to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Salvation isn’t good enough for you? What else does this whispering Spirit give you?
I’m getting out of the way because you can expect heavy shelling after a flaming post like that…grab your helmet!!
Ralph,
You mentioned Harper’s Bible Dictionary. Before I started actively participating in this blog I remember reading the long posts on this subject between Lautensack and yourself. Lautensack painfully went step by step historically and through the scriptures with you on this. I see that all those posts didn’t get very far with you on explainations.
Correct, the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Neither is “eternal/celestial marriage” or “eternal progression” and it’s not in the Book of Mormon either unfortunately for the Mormon pushing this argument. That doesn’t mean that the concept of the teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible. The Bible is clear that there are three persons that make up the Godhead while yet there is only one God. That is the antithesis of Christianity – monotheism. Mormonsism is polytheism.
You mentioned the creeds. I’m a member of the largest Christian denomination in North America and the creeds play no part in our doctrine. They are not authoritative and we don’t even teach them. They are a great reference in learning the positions of some of the early church fathers, but they are not binding to us. The Bible alone is our only source of authority and guide through Christ.
Do you have Harper’s Dictionary? If so, I’d like for you to look up the word “Mormonism” in there and tell me what it says. Lastly, look up “God” and see if it is defined as “an exalted man” as Joseph Smith said it was as being the “first principle of the gospel”. Let me know what Harper says and then get back to me so we can compare notes on that dictionary.
I doubt very seriously you will find a glossary of Mormon terminology as laid out in “Mormon Doctrine” in Harper’s Dictionary. By your reasoning, if Harper’s doesn’t mention it, then does that mean it’s not Christian? If so, Mormonism has a real problem when it comes to labels/titles that they want the world to recogninze them as.
Cluff,
It’s clear you don’t understand the purpose of the early Church councils. They were initiated to fight against such heresies as your beloved leaders taught and continue to teach. You seem to think that by using the phrase “Nicean Council” that you have some upperhand. Yet, you worship a god that was created, which is not the God of the Bible. Your god needed a savior, which is not the God of the Bible. Your god responds to works with grace. The God of the Bible offers grace before we even know what grace is all about. Your god was predated by time; the God of the Bible created time. And, yet, you will continue to peddle your heresies and think you’re doing us a favor. Your claims in your 1-10 summation are ridiculous and laughable, and only reveal your ignorance of biblical exegesis and what Christians really believe. But, one has to be a Christian to know what a Christian believes. Worse than that, however, and really sad, is that your ramblings reveal that you haven’t the slightest clue that you are nothing before a Holy God, just as I am nothing before a Holy God. But, then, your god is equal to you. That’s not the God of the Bible. You talk down to us as if you really think you have some sort of spiritual upperhand. Well, it’s your prerogative to worship JS and BY, but please don’t try to say you worship the God as revealed in the Bible. Such a claim is offensive to Christians. But, then again, you don’t really care about being offensive or not. Waiting for your tongue lashing, FOF.
LDS said:
“Cluff…playing the anger card again. Wasn’t it you who quoted the verse that noone can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit? You can’t hand me over to the Devil that easy my friend…ha!”
Not a bit angry, just using my strong voice.
Jeffery was saying that the old men in Salt Lake were starting to make nice–needed to fit in.
My point is that the BoM, which they strongly endorse, is NOT A BIT nice to main-stream Christains. You should see what it says about the Bible.
You can SAY that Jesus is Christ, but if you don’t say it by the power of the Holy Ghost you have said nothing at all.
Whenever I say Jesus is Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost it is ALWAYS followed by my saying the JS was the prophet of the restoration BY THE SAME POWER In today’s world, when it comes to the power of God via the Holy Ghost, you really can’t say one without the other.
That is why Christian’s continue to deny the power of God, and why Mormons are the only real Christians.
Then you said:
“Jesus is still in His resurrected, glorified body and I’m sure He still talks to His Father like He did here on earth. Don’t you worry about that.”
Did you know that you are agreeing with Mormonism on that? You know- the OTHER God theory that “should disqualify us as Christians”?
You should check with some of your buddies here because the God of main-stream Christianity left his body burning in the atmosphere as he ascended into heaven.
THAT is the God that lets you be Christian. Now you can sit on the bench next to me– you know, the outcast, non-Christian bench?
Oh Boy, Cluff.
Your comments don’t even really deserve a response. Not to be rude, but you are so off base.
What I will do is question you on whether or not you really think that we believe what you say we believe.
You’ve been here long enough to get an idea as to what we say we believe. Have you been paying attention and can you recite, with sincerity, what that is?
I am curious as to your sincerity in honestly answering. This is because Mormons seem to live by this point of view: if you want to know what a Mormon believes, ask a Mormon. So, are you willing to reciprocate?
Berean:
Jesus asked the question more than once.
Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Peter failed to answer as you believe- that Christ is the son of the Holy Spirit. He answered as MORMONS believe. He is the literal son of God the Father. He didn’t pray to himself. He counciled with his father in real communication.
The best part is– Peter did it the way MORMONS do it today. He got the witness via real communication with God. The Word of God was NOT in the Bible. Imagine that!
You should try it. It works great. That is how I found that the Holy Ghost DOES speak on many things. The first is all about Christ. He lets us approach the Father by giving as an amazing gift– the remission of sins.
When you learn to tap into that power you can become Christian. You will stop denying the power of God. Don’t be alarmed when that power tells you to become Mormon. I avoided getting stuck there, maybe you can too. It’s really not that bad.
Cluff,
I wish sometimes that this blog focused on Christian beliefs. Maybe just then you wouldn’t come up with a 1-10 that every Evangelical on this site probably disagrees on every point with you.
I’m not going to give a rebuttal on your list because I truly think you don’t even care. If you truly do, you would ask, and I bet you wouldn’t get the answers you think you have. You should be ashamed.
I am however curious as to who thinks Jesus Christ wasn’t resurrected with a glorified body. Where did you hear that one Cluff?
I hope this isn’t seen as a personal attack, but to my Christian posters: CLUFF’s game is to get people to respond to him…..period. Back when I was still in the school business, we had this skinny little immature kid who used to like to taunt the football players in order to get their attention. The football players had to learn to ignore the wimpy kid because even if they pounded him it positively reinforced his behavior with what he wanted, attention. Kind of like bad breath is better than no breath at all. CLUFF knows what Christians believe but his game is to misstate the beliefs in an attempt to provoke a response. I’ve decided to shroud him and would suggest that the rest of you do the same. But remember, when you attempt to extinguish a behavior it will, for a time, increase. Little B.F. Skinner with your morning coffee.
Cluff…I ran out of posts…”almost thou persuadest me to be a Mormon” LOL!
No, I’m afraid I still sit with the Christians Cluff. Three persons, but only ONE GOD. Do you remember John’s vision of the throne in Revelation? First he saw a lion then it was a lamb but it looked like it was slain but yet it was alive. We can’t begin to comprehend the Godhead my friend. God way beyond our ken.
If you really believe God has a body since we were made in His image doesn’t He also have to have breasts and a uterus? Don’t you believe male and female were both made in His image?
falcon is prolly right about Cluff’s modus operandi…but then again I am that thin little immature kid inside and outside also (sorry but I find the “s” word offensive)…so I’ll play along for fun.
Michael P and all,
“See, its not all semantics. The differences are real, and therefore the application is also huge. You believe you can become a God. Do you really think that the application of following God’s will is the same as when I try to follow God’s will? Are our minds in the same place?”
I do believe that for the majority of Christians both evangelical and Mormon our minds are in the same place. For most, the semantics that we see here are not what their faith is about. It is a basic, sincere belief that Jesus is our Savior, we are wholly dependent upon him for salvation and the type of debates we tend to see here are a distraction from that.
I recognize that this forum tends to draw the intellectuals from both sides who find semantics interesting, but I do not believe this is representative of most Christian’s.
For most Christians trying to raise their families in a very difficult world, their faith is much more practical. It is what gets them out of bed in the morning to go to their jobs- many of which aren’t dream jobs- so they can feed their families. It is what allows them to hold their temper when the actions of a child pushes them past their normal limits. It is what gives them the drive to help their neighbor and work in their communities. It is what motivates them to attend Sunday services when there are a billion other things competing for their off time. It is what allows them to continue on when the trials of life seem overwhelming.
It is not about the semantics that tend to take up 99% of this site and others. I am very passionate about this issue, because I believe it is true. Intellectuals tend to think that what they have to say is important, but for most people faith is a living, breathing day to day concept largely removed from the intellectual debates.
Personally I believe this common everyday faith is closer to the kind of faith Christ would have us have than most of what is represented by intellectuals from both sides.
BornagainMormon, can one separate the intellectual objectiveness of faith from the action upon it by the subjective nature of an individual?
Is Mormonism Christian? What if we compare the basic doctrines of Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity?
1. Nature and Attributes of God – radically different beliefs in this area, one being a made up of semi-omnipotent Gods, monolithic polytheism (Mormonism), the other being comprised of One Omnipotent God, plural monotheism, specifically Trinitarianism (Christian).
2. The Person and Work of Jesus Christ – radically different, one believing He was the first of many children of God and came only as an example(M), the other being The Second Person of the Trinity who became flesh (Fully God, Fully Man) to seek and save the lost(C).
3. The Holy Spirit – radically different, One being a specific son of God who has yet to receive a body but has already attained Godhood, and who brings the Testimony(M), the other being The Third Person of the Trinity, who applies the preaching of the Gospel to the heart of hearers and who bears witness that those born again from above are sons of God by adoption(C).
4. Humanity – radically different, one being literal physical children of God, who is a man(M), the other being created in His image(C).
5. Sin and the Fall – radically different, one believing that it was a fall up, so we could attain Godhood(M), the other believing it was the very reason God became Flesh to save His Church(C).
6. Salvation – radically different, one believes that true salvation results is attaining Godhood by ones own works and after that Christ’s atonement is applied to you(M), the other states that salvation belongs God and is not on the basis of works done in righteousness, but Christ’s perfect work in our place(C).
I think you get the point. While the two may use the word Christian, it is used in completely different ways. The only acceptable answer is that Mormonism is a non-Christian religion.
Lautensack
Bornagain,
I appreciate your sentiments. They are noble. But if that is the approach you take we should apply it to all faiths, even those whose raison d’etre, the reason the get out of bed and the reason they have the patience to deal with a little one, is to blow you and I up. After all, it makes them happy, right? What about those, who in the name of Christ, like to blow up little bunnies? After all, it makes them happy.
You would agree these are ridiculous notions, but at the heart of your argument is that exact sentiment: details shouldn’t get in the way of what helps someone stay happy and gives them peace.
So, first of all, do you see that this is the case? If not, please explain why it is otherwise.
As to the details within Christianity and Mormonism, let me ask a very simple question: since I reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, do I have any chance whatsoever of making it to the celestial kingdom, your version of ultimate salvation?
When answering, keep in mind your argument that these things don’t matter when discussing Christianity and Mormonism and the details that supposedly don’t matter.
Michael P said:
“Your comments don’t even really deserve a response. Not to be rude, but you are so off base.
What I will do is question you on whether or not you really think that we believe what you say we believe.”
It you compare Berean’s 9/25 post that lists the top 10 reasons Mormons can’t be Christians to the top top ten list I posted yesterday, you will notice some similarities. Same condescending tone, same rediculous list of complaints. Most Mormons don’t believe or focus on any of those things either.
I am just illustrating the rediculous by being rediculous myself. I learned that from Rush Limhaugh.
No Mormons don’t believe what most Christians say we believe, and NO these kind of comments don’t deserve a response, but here I am, responding anyway.
Like they say, turnabout is fair play? When will this site stop being so off base? This article is off base. OFF BASE (the tone is one of red-faced screaming in case you wondered)
Dr. McDermott is off base because he, like most Christian authors, continues to discount the power of the Holy Ghost. That is the only thing that CAN put us back on base.
Jeffery asked:
“I am however curious as to who thinks Jesus Christ wasn’t resurrected with a glorified body. Where did you hear that one Cluff?”
I got that by reading the Nicean Creed. Christ may have recieved a glorified body, but he OBVIOUSLY doesn’t have it today. What exactly did he do with it?
falcon said:
“CLUFF knows what Christians believe but his game is to misstate the beliefs in an attempt to provoke a response.”
I WISH it was that simple.
I am attempting to duplicate what I see posters do here all day. They either misstate Mormons beliefs out of ignorance and misinformation, or they deliberately twist our beliefs to mean something they don’t. I am just doing it in reverse so that you can feel my pain. If I had any sense I would shroud this blog entirely.
Cluff said
Now GRCluff, Let me ask you a question. from what you said, we christians are really not true christians, but LDS are, is this correct?
if so, this poses a problem, that is, you LDS buddy Ralph, try’s really hard to convince me he is a christian and believes exactly as I do. so if what he believes is true, then that shows you to at odd’s, even though you claim to believe the same thing. Rick b (LDS priesthood holder)
jackg said:
It’s clear you don’t understand the purpose of the early Church councils. They were initiated to fight against such heresies as your beloved leaders taught and continue to teach.
It is not a matter of understanding, but a matter of DISAGREEMENT. I will insist the the early Church councils, were the VEHICLE used to establish and enforce heresy. Any REAL Christians were killed as a result, sending the world into the dark ages.
What my beloved leaders taught and continue to teach are the precepts and power of the ORIGINAL saints, not the concepts established by Greek doctors as they imposed Hellenization on Christianity.
The REAL Christian– is the one who is right, REGARDLESS of the debatable characteristics of Christ himself.
BornagainMormon has it right. The debate is interesting but the exercise of faith is more relevant.
Cluff said, “I will insist the the early Church councils, were the VEHICLE used to establish and enforce heresy.”
This is why I say you don’t know much about the history of the early church councils.
“What my beloved leaders taught and continue to teach are the precepts and power of the ORIGINAL saints, not the concepts established by Greek doctors as they imposed Hellenization on Christianity.”
This shows that you don’t understand how God brings forth His word into a culture and, despite a broken humanity, succeeds at effecting His purposes. How was the culture of the 1800s more amenable to God than the first century? Also, are you all suggesting that the exercise of faith is what saves us? Looking forward to an off-the-wall response that really makes no sense and exhibits some disturbing things about you. I’m really not trying to be facetious, but your “put in your pipe and smoke it” comment has me wondering about whether or not you smoke something in a pipe. This is not an allegation, but I am wondering about you, man. You’re wild. I wonder how your bishop would respond if he read some of the stuff you write. Just curious…
GRCluff wrote: BornagainMormon has it right. The debate is interesting but the exercise of faith is more relevant.
Are we to understand that the Buddhist monk who exercises his faith in ways far more visible and moral should be given theological equality or superiority to Christians or Mormons? That his faith (objective) is true because his faith (subjective) seems to be exercised in a different way than say John Calvin, John Wesley, Athanasius, or Augustine?
GRCluff wrote: The REAL Christian– is the one who is right, REGARDLESS of the debatable characteristics of Christ himself.
I don’t think anyone is debating the debatable characteristics of Christ himself here. We are not debating height, weight, hair or eye color, we are discussing of the Eternal Logos, the Word Become Flesh. Non-debatable issues in the Christian Faith.
Furthermore when you defend the heretics defeated in 325AD and following I don’t think you understand that you are defending men who are while on the surface they look the same as Mormon theology, especially with Arius and Apollinarius, in reality if one searches a little deeper their theology looks nothing like early or modern Mormon thought outside of a few similarities in their part of their Christology.
Lautensack
Lautensack wrote:
Are we to understand that the Buddhist monk who exercises his faith in ways far more visible and moral should be given theological equality or superiority to Christians or Mormons?
In a word, yes. This is a great example.
The purpose of life is NOT to accept Christ. We ALL did that already in our pre-existance. Those who rejected Christ to follow Satan we denied a physical body. Remember how Christ cast the spirits Legion into the swine in the NT?
The purpose of life is:
1. To be tested
2. To learn to walk by faith
3. To recieve a physical body.
The test is how well we follow the dictates of our conscience. We are ALL on a level playing field on that one. Every person born on earth has a conscience, also know at the light of Christ in Mormon doctrine.
You don’t even need to hear the name Christ to follow your conscience. And to the extent that Buddhist monks exercise true faith in a real God they can learn to walk by faith.
The unfortunate thing that Christians do is they corrupt the process by:
1. Teaching right and wrong from the Bible.
2. Teaching man that they are sinners and can’t do anything about that.
3. Teaching man that even the worst sinner can be saved by accepting Christ. Lip service alone.
Most Christians will be WORSE OFF than the Buddhist monk on judgement day. They know what was right, but choose wrong instead because they were sure they could get away with it. After all, Christ saves even the worst sinner, right?
Christians negate the purpose of life by saying:
1. It is no test, we are sinners by nature.
2. Real faith does NOT require repentance, accept Christ and you are done.
3. Body? – who needs it. We will be spirts like God in the ressurection.
Please, tell me I am wrong.
GRLuff, I am going to be blunt with you, (Falcon, Can you say Hammer?)
I really believe you are avoiding the question I asked Because you will be put in a position of either admitting you were wrong, or showing you do not agree with your brother Ralph.
Either we (Christians) as you said are not Christians, despite Ralph saying we believe the same things, and he went out of his way to say so and gave what he felt was evidence, or he is wrong and you were correct, but either way, you two do not agree and you both claim to be LDS.
This was one of the things I brought up to Ralph, as he claims, many christians do not agree, so in his mind that means we must be wrong. But using his logic, that must make us correct since two LDS cannot agree, or that means were not wrong simply because we do not agree, which is it? and are you going to answer my question? Rick b (LDS priesthood holder).
In my earlier post I stated 10 reasons why Mormons are not Christians and it focused on one aspect: Who Jesus is. I knew when I wrote those out that there would be some Mormons who say that the LDS Church doesn’t teach those things. I knew I should have given references to back up each point. I’m not going to put something out on this blog that I can’t back up.
1. Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer.
“On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some – especially those unaquainted with Latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother.” (“I Have a Question”, Ensign, June 1986, pp.24-27)
2. Jesus is a god.
“Our Savior was A god before he was born into this world, and he brought with him that same status when he came here. He was as much A god when he was born into the world as he was before. The Savior did not have fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and earth. Although he was A god, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection.” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:32-33)
3. Jesus’ blood cannot atone for all sins.
“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WILL NOT CLEANSE THEM FROM THEIR SINS even though they repent. Therefore, their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf.” [emphasis added] (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:135)
Also, see D&C 42:18,79 – Murder not forgiven.
Part 2
4. Jesus is a created being as the offspring of a male and female that eternally progressed and became gods.
“All men and women are…literally the sons and daughters of Deity…Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of HEAVENLY PARENTS…Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our HEAVENLY PARENTS was Jesus Christ so he is literally our elder brother.” [Emphasis added] (Gospel Principles, p.11)
5. Jesus cannot be prayed to directly.
“We always pray to our Father in Heaven, and to him alone…We do not pray to the Savior or to anyone else. To do so would be disrespectful of Heavenly Father” (Missionary Preparation Student Manual Religion 130, p.40)
6. Jesus was a polygamist (as taught by early Mormon leaders).
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostels, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas. He (Jesus), according to Celsus, had a NUMEROUS TRAIN OF WIVES. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were ‘Mormons’.” [emphasis added] (Journal of Discourses 1:341)
7. Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“The (Son of God) was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, NOR WAS HE BEGOTTEN BY THE HOLY GHOST. He is the Son of the Eternal Father.” (Ezra Taft Benson, “Come Unto Christ”, Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1983).
“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN BY THE HOLY GHOST.” [emphasis added] (Brigham Young, JOD 1:46)
The Bible says it was the Holy Ghost in Matthew 1:18,20: “that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost”.
8. Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem.
Alma 7:10 – “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem”
Part 3
9. Jesus only fulfilled part of what is required to be with Heavenly Father, with the rest being contingent on the individual Mormon to complete.
“When he (Jesus) became our Savior, he did HIS PART TO HELP US return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do OUR PART and become worthy of exaltation.” [emphasis added] (Gospel Principles, p.19)
10. Jesus came to the Americas after his resurrection and established His church.
“Shortly after his resurrection, the Savior appeared to the Nephites and established his Church in the Americas.” (Gospel Principles, p.68)
READ THE WHOLE BOOK OF MORMON! That’s what the book is all about! Many references could have been listed with each point. I listed only one or two for the sake of blog space. The documentation is extensive!
None of the above are Christian beliefs – never have been and never will be. These are Mormon specific beliefs. Nobody outside of Mormonism holds to these views. They are all by themselves in each of those points. Christianity has 2 billion followers and despite the numerous denominations there are, there isn’t one that believes any of the above. Mormonism is not Christian.
I reference Matthew 22:42 again because this is the most important question. Because of the above stated Mormon beliefs this demonstrates that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and Christianity. If you have the wrong Jesus you are lost.
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Lautensack, it’s good to have you back. Everytime Ralph mentions Harper’s Bible Dictionary I have thought about you because I remember this was something you covered in great detail.
Thank you Berean. As I was reading your documented list of Mormon specific doctrines, I kept thinking that not only did the first century Church not believe any of this nonsense but even the early heretics didn’t believe any of it. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et al got so full of themselves that they believed anything that popped into their minds was from God. Ah the wonderful world of Mormon revelation. The goofier (or is it more Goofy or Donald or Mickey)this stuff gets, the more the TBMs fight to believe it. It’s a badge of honor in Mormonism to believe the most outlandish doctrines, teachings and revelations. Hay, don’t all Christians believe that the moon is populated by six foot tall men that dress like pilgrims? Mormonism doesn’t even rise to the level of good heresy. And they want to be in the Christian camp? I suggest the Utah LDS try one of the other world religions or align themselves with the FLDS but I don’t think the FLDS would have them.
Thanks Berean,
GRcluff, Please show me where the Biblical reference that says life is where we receive a physical body.
Also it seems you don’t understand the term theologically equal or superior, by this of course I mean that their theology, the objective content of their faith, is equal or greater than that of a Mormon or Christian. This would mean that because the monk is more ‘moral’ that proves that Buddhism is the true religion. I’m sorry if you misunderstood the application, I will try to be clearer henceforth.
I know that you do not need to hear the name of Christ to follow your conscience, which, according to Paul, accuses or even excuses the unbeliever. (Romans 2:15) I agree we are all on a level playing field, however you lack consistency, at least consistency with scripture. You seem to think that all men are generally good and have accepted Christ, I on the other hand take the biblical approach understanding that all men, prior to conversion, suppress the truth about God by their unrighteousness (Romans 1:18), and in fact are “haters of God”(Romans 1:30). How can my very moral Muslim neighbor who hates the God of the Bible not be linked with the unrighteous man who suppresses the truth about God? (Romans 1:18ff)
Furthermore if we have all already chosen Jesus how on earth could he make the statement “you do not believe because you are not part of my flock” (John 10:26) or “Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”(John 3:18) And how can Paul be so bold as to say “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”(Romans 8:1) if in fact some who chose Him in the pre-existence will be condemned into not receiving exaltation? Wouldn’t these statements make both Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ liars according to your theology?
Lautensack
“Please, tell me I am wrong.”
OK Cluff, you are wrong.
“Most Christians will be WORSE OFF than the Buddhist monk on judgement day. They know what was right, but choose wrong instead because they were sure they could get away with it. After all, Christ saves even the worst sinner, right?”
Well you are right about that at least. We are all sinners, but even the greatest of sinners can be saved by a merciful and sovereign God.
I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.(1 Tim 1:12-15)
Paul was the worst of sinners, persecuting the very saint of God. He was not seeking Christ, but Christ sought him and saved him. Paul was saved not because of his righteousness clearly. He was not saved because he was seeking after God. He certainly was not saved because of some earlier decision he made at a bogus council in heaven that is a fantasy of Joe Smith’s imagination. He was saved for the same reason I was saved or any Christian was saved, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That He saved us in spite of our sins. Until you see the truth of how lost you are, you cannot be saved and even that faith and that recogntion is a gift of God. The sinner will walk in ignorance and sin unless acted upon by God. You either misunderstand or misrepresent what grace and faith are all about in your refusal to see that faith granted us by God leads to repentance, not the other way around.
Lautensack,
You make a fundamental error in your presentation. You asked for a Biblical reference. I know it’s easy to forget, but Mormonism is based on revelation and this is more trusted by Mormons than the corrupted Bible which cannot be trusted. The Mormon narrative works off of revelation, conspiracy theories, created history, creative historical interpretation and folk doctrine. And the beauty is, it’s constantly changing under the creative banner of continuous revelation. Empirical evidence is shunned as not being from God. All this is done to protect the believer’s testimony which is rooted in the emotions, and on a good day, accompanied by a physical reaction. That’s why when our Mormon friends are painted into a corner they yelp “I bear you my testimony” or “If you’d just read the BoM humbly and ask God if it’s true……” And so Mormons get sucked down the vortex of an occult based religion screaming all the while that they are Christians.
Lautensack asked:
GRcluff, Please show me where the Biblical reference that says life is where we receive a physical body.
I am happy to perform, love to quote the bible AND I enjoy a good bible bash, but falcon has a point. My basis for truth is the witness of the Holy Spirit– personal revelation. That is the foundation that the Bible agrees with. We can bash about that if you like.
Heb 12:9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This establishes us as dual beings, flesh, and spirit. God is the father of our spirit.
Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Can this be any more clear on the matter?
1 Cor 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
GRCluff said:
They either misstate Mormons beliefs out of ignorance and misinformation, or they deliberately twist our beliefs to mean something they don’t.
In light of falcon’s clarification, perhaps I should categorize for us:
Ignorance:
4. Jesus is a created being as the offspring of a male and female that eternally progressed and became gods.
Misinformation:
3. Jesus’ blood cannot atone for all sins.
5. Jesus cannot be prayed to directly.
8. Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem.
9. Jesus only fulfilled part of what is required.
Twisted to mean something they don’t:
1. Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer.
Spot on right:
2. Jesus is a god.
7. Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Ghost.
10. Jesus came to the Americas after his resurrection.
Not commonly taught as Mormon doctrine:
6. Jesus was a polygamist
Ignorance:
4. Jesus is a created being as the offspring of a male and female that eternally progressed and became gods.
Why is this ignorance? Because Mormon scripture teaches that spirits are ORGANIZED from existing intelligence, not created.
Christ was not created at all.
D&C 93:29
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
Abr 3:22
Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were ORGANIZED before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (the purpose of life in case you wondered)
Why are these things not in the Bible? Because they were clearly stated in the Book of Abraham, and the Book of Abraham was readily available in the first century.
The Apocalypse of Abraham, and Testament of Abraham are two independently discovered, and very ancient documents.
Their identity as ancient documents is certian. If you examine the English transaltions of BOTH, you find parallels to the JS translation. Too many parallels to be a coincidence.
JS was able to translate the whole book from a small fragment of the original text found the the Book of the Dead.
Misinformation:
3. Jesus’ blood cannot atone for all sins.
I can, but it won’t. This should be restated as:
Jesus’ blood WILL NOT atone for all sins.
This doctrine is most clearly taught, not by a revelation from JS, but one from his nephew – Joseph F. Smith.
D&D 138:58
The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after THEY HAVE PAID THE PENALTY of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
Why are they paying the penalty for their own transgressions? Because Christ pays the price for sins when repentance is complete IN THE FLESH. The alternative is hell- you pay the price for your own sins.
5. Jesus cannot be prayed to directly.
He can, but is like praying to the virgin Mary. It is not the recommended approach to prayer. Christ taught the proper form of prayer himself when he said: OUR Father who art in heaven. He instructed us to pray in the same fashion. His father is our father.
True prayer takes all 3 members of the Godhead. Christ to make us worthy to approach God to be our advocate with the Father, God to answer our prayer, and the Holy Spirit to carry the answer to our mind and heart. It is the foundation of truth and true faith.
8. Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem.
When I was in Puerto Rico, everyone would ask me what part of New York I came from. I said I had never been to New York. Then they looked puzzled and asked; New Jersey?
To them the US was the same as New York. That was their point of reference. Well, Jerusalem is a point of reference for the native land of extended Israel, is it not? Case closed, and pretty narrow minded I might add.
9. Jesus only fulfilled part of what is required.
This is the same as #3. Come on falcon, I know you can find a better issue that this one. You don’t need to duplicate.
Cluff,
Alma 7:10 can shed alittle light on number 7&8 on your list. It states that the conception was by the Holy Ghost. Oh, and it also says he is to be born in Jeruselem. Hope this helps, thanks Berean.
I would love to keep on going but, two birds with one stone is enough.
W/LOVE
It takes more to being a Christian religion than having the name Jesus Christ in your name. That’s been an LDS smokescreen answer for years and was promlagated by the late GBH seer, revelator, prophet etc. of the Utah LDS church. This mantra, and there are many in the Utah LDS Church, was picked-up by the rank and file and was meant to obscure the fact that Mormonism does not sign-on to the major doctrines of the Christian faith. It must also be remembered that Mormonism is a religion based on constant revelation without regard for previous revelation. Therefore it cannot be held accountable for the dubious, inconsistant and just plain wacky pronouncements, teachings, pracitces and doctrines of provious prophets. It’s somewhat laughable, that Mormons attempt to find evidence for the BoM and for their claim for restored first century Christianity, when they deny emperical evidence in favor of continual revelation. Bible references, quotes from the BoM and or historical “facts” can be pretty much ignored if revelation is the driving force of the religion. There really isn’t any need for evidence in support of Mormon religious dogma. Why should Mormons even care. Just do the revelation backflip into a new doctrine and do the testimony handstand. Can’t ever be wrong when old doctrine, teaching and practice can be supplanted by the new.
GRCluff,
First Hebrews 12:9 is speaking about the discipline a father gives to his children, not that God is literally the father of our spirits. It is clear from verse 7 of the same chapter that we are being treated as sons, not that we are by birthright. Furthermore the book of Hebrews is being written to Christians, those born again from above, not the unregenerate.
Second Job 19 is speaking about the one who would redeem Job, furthermore the preposition “in” (my flesh), could also be translated “without” (my flesh), even so there is no argument that men are of flesh and spirit. That was not what I was asking for. I will restate the question to clarify, since I was very unclear, where in the bible does that the purpose of this life was to receive a physical body?
Furthermore I do believe in the resurrection of the body described in 1 Corinthians 15, as all Christians do. However it is a huge leap to say that because the man Jesus Christ was raised from the dead in a physical body, that God, who is spirit, must also have a physical body.
Finally you’ve spun a web you are utterly unable to defend, on September 27, 2008 that the early church councils destroyed true theology, however the men condemned at these councils do not support your argument at all, in fact they oppose it. Arius said that God created Christ out of nothing and that through Christ God created the universe out of nothing. Also Arius denied the person of the Spirit which I believe you would affirm, thus the two heresies you are trying to link are fundamentally at odds with each other.
So to recap, please state from the bible where it explicitly says the purpose of this life was to gain a physical body, no Christian denies that Jesus was a man or that the resurrection did happen, what we deny is that God the Father and Spirit are men, and that Arius was not a Mormon, contrary to what you may believe.
Lautensack
P.S. Again I never meant to infer that humans didn’t have physical bodies.
GRLuff, I see you still do not want to answer me, and funny how Ralph is not around either, typical mormon, cannot stand the truth.
here is a thought, JS claimed to see both God and Jesus in some of the 9 first vision accounts. how is this possible in light of Matthew 24:29-30
After Jesus resurrected from the dead, the Bible is clear, we will not see him again until He returns in the clouds. Rick b (LDS priesthood holder)
Mormonism is not a denomination of Christianity because it is not a Bible based religion as are all Christian denominaitons. Mormonism, has as it’s base, revelation that the occult practicing Joseph Smith says he received supernaturally. In his book, “Under the Banner of Heaven”, Jon Krakauer states that “Joseph taught and encouraged his adherents to receive personal communiques straight from the Lord. Divine revelation formed the bedrock of the religion. God,of course, regularly communicated with Joseph as well his followers. The imparting of heavenly truth began with The BoM but by no means did it end there. The Lord routinely issued commandments to Joseph, continually revealing sacred principles that needed to be revised or changed outright.” (p.72)
The interesting thing about false prophets is that their followers don’t really demand consistency or even accuracy from the “prophet”. Like in his treasure hunting days, when treasure was never found, there was always an excuse from Joseph Smith. This is a regular feature of Mormonism today when it comes to “revealed” prophecy, doctrine, practice or evidence that runs contrary to the stated revelation. This is seen in such things as Bringham Young’s Adam-God doctrine, the BoA or the BoM. So the accuracy of the “revelation” based religion is zero. But that’s OK because like in the treasure hunting days of Smith,a blown treasure hunt was explained away because someone spoke out of turn or drew the magic circle wrong. A bogus revelation can be explained away with a new updated version and an easy excuse as to why the old revelation can no longer make the cut.
This is why Mormonism is built on sand. It’s not based on a firm foundation of true revelation, the Word of God, the Bible. That is also why Mormonism is not a Christian religion. It is a whimsical fantasy that promises it’s adherents much, but in the end will deliver nothing. What will the excuse be before the Lord on that Day?
Cluff,
“The purpose of life is NOT to accept Christ.”
Cluff, where do you get this stuff. This is pure heresy.
“2. Teaching man that they are sinners and can’t do anything about that”
This statement of yours clearly misrepresents Christianity. We are in a depraved state, and the way we deal with that is through accepting Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior. The Holy Spirit infills us, and part of His mission is to cleanse us from the original sin we inherit from Adam. You’re a sinner, Cluff. If you don’t think you are, then you are merely deceiving yourself.
“2. Real faith does NOT require repentance, accept Christ and you are done.”
Again, you misrepresent Christianity. Repentance precedes justification by faith. This is our response to God’s grace in our lives as He shows us through the Law how we are sinners. That is the purpose of the Law, Cluff, to help us see our need for God. I pray that one day you will see your need for God and dump the JS theology that has you in bondage and doomed for an eternity of life in God’s presence. That’s the plain truth, Cluff. Respond to the Spirit, Cluff. Submit to Christ, Cluff. His gospel is the gospel of grace, and He is offering it to you, Cluff. Believe in the Bible, because it testifies of Christ.
RickB,
I am still here; I just don’t have access over the weekend to this site.
Here are my original words ” I believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Redeemer, I believe that He is the Son of God and that I cannot live with Heavenly Father after this life except through faith in Jesus Christ. Is that not exactly the same as you believe? The differences come about with what I believe Jesus and His Apostles taught about faith and what it entails. All the other points, except the character of God, are minor points similar to the differences between other Christian denominations.”
Note the bold. These are the differences you are talking about and I do agree, there are differences. My question was – Do you agree that the first part is what you believe (ie before the bold)?
You said ”If you really follow LDS teaching, then people who commit murder can never be forgiven.” This is misrepresentative of our belief. We believe that those who have received the truth and converted to God and Jesus and then willingly go and murder, they will not receive forgiveness. The reason being is that they have received a testimony from the Holy Ghost to the truth then willingly went against that testimony. This is denying the Holy Ghost, not just murder. As taught in the Bible and the D&C this is the unpardonable sin. Jesus taught ” Matt 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10)”
I believe that this answers part 3 from your questions too Berean – Jesus’ blood cannot atone for all sins if they are committed against the Holy Ghost.
Berean,
Part 8 – ‘at Jerusalem’
A dictionary meaning for the word ‘at’ –
In or near the area occupied by; in or near the location of: at the market; at our destination.
In or near the position of: always at my side; at the center of the page.
(used to indicate a point or place occupied in space); in, on, or near: to stand at the door; at the bottom of the barrel.
The people spoken too knew nothing about the Middle East towns except for the major ones like Jerusalem. The person knew this and so used Jerusalem as a reference point. Bethlehem is only 5-10 km outside of Jerusalem, isn’t that NEAR enough? When I lived in Sydney I actually lived in the city of Parramatta about 20 km outside of Sydney. When you look at a world map of Australia you can find Sydney, but unless you have a very detailed map, you will not find Parramatta. Same with when I lived in Brisbane, I actually lived in the city of Logan which is just south of Brisbane. These are different cities, but only one is usually shown on the world maps so it’s easier to just give the major one as reference. Now I live in Newcastle, that one is usually on the world maps.
All the verses in the BoM that discuss this say “AT Jerusalem”, NOT “in Jerusalem”. So the person who wrote down that is says ‘in’ is misrepresenting the truth.
4givn,
As far as the BoM saying Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, here is the verse Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
This does not say He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, but that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. Big difference. I know people that conceive by the power of IVF – does that mean the culture plate was the father?
Ralph, if I may interject as to your inquiry where you wrote: “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Redeemer, I believe that He is the Son of God and that I cannot live with Heavenly Father after this life except through faith in Jesus Christ. Is that not exactly the same as you believe?” Before any Christian can answer this question terms must first be defined, foremost being who is this Jesus Christ, is He a great spirit being such as Michael the Archangel, the first child of a god and his wife, or the Word become Flesh? Also what is meant by the title Son of God.
Second we must define what the words savior and redeemer, do these simply mean enabler, or do they actually mean that Christ redeemed sinners from a debt owed and actually saved them completely.
Next we must define what is meant by the term Heavenly Father. Do you mean that this “Heavenly Father” is in someway a literal father to you through a physical union that took place in heaven, or is He your “Heavenly Father” only because you are in Christ(dependent upon earlier definition) and thus adopted by Him.
Finally you must define what faith in Jesus is, and if the objective and subjective nature of it can be bifurcated from one another?
Until those terms are defined while on the surface it might seem that we are saying the same thing, and unknowing Christians might agree to that statement, once terms are defined it is evident that though we say the same words we are speaking very different languages, or at the very least about different people.
Lautensack
Ralph,
Glad you join in with this one. You seem to be forgetting the first part. The overshadowing is the action of the Spirit, and the conception is the result of the action. You see its like a quarterback(spirit) thowing a pass, and the reciever(mary) catching the ball. Not like the “imaculate reception”. Sorry, I got a little off track. Someone has misled you on how that works. Hope that helps.
As for “at”, there are claims that the translation wording was for the people of Smiths time. So why would it be incorrect? Jesus Christ was not the only one with the first name Jesus, that is why the “of” or last name is SO important.
There are 38 verses in the Bible with the name Bethlehem in them, with only 8 of them being in the NT. So it is not a new town by any means.
There are 29 verses that have Nazareth in them, with all of them being in the NT.
So it seems apperent that you might have the wrong Jesus.
GO STEELERS! W/LOVE
Michael P,
“details shouldn’t get in the way of what helps someone stay happy and gives them peace.”
My point is not that there are not details. It is that those details are much simpler and purer than most intellectuals on both sides will concede. In my mind these are the essential details which much of the discussion here tends to overshadow.
1. There is a need for a Savior.
2. That Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. He is the only one capable of saving us.
4. We must accept Him to return and live with God.
As to your question.
“since I reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, do I have any chance whatsoever of making it to the celestial kingdom, your version of ultimate salvation?”
I know this answer may surprise you, but of course you have a chance. Ultimate salvation is dependent upon Christ- not Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was a servant, not the Savior.
I’ll leave you with my favorite quote from Joseph Smith.
“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets concerning, Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” (TPJS, p.121)
Lautensack,
You’ve hit the nail on the head. A discussion of whether or not a particular religion is Christian or not, cannot proceed unless the critical terms are defined. Mormons are seen are dishonest on two counts. They don’t define their terms knowing that their religion defines the nature of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the plan of salvation in a completly different way than do Christians. The second area of dishonesty is the constant rejection by Mormons of the ideology revealed to their “prophets”. We hear a constant drum beat among Mormons of “we don’t believe that” when one of their prophets has clearly articulated or amplified a doctrine or teaching. This is more than the speculation that goes on among Christian theologians. Mormons proudly claim that they have a living prophet that speaks for God and then deny what the prophet has spoken forth in revelation. It is clear that in the minds of the prophets they weren’t merely engaged in idle speculation.
Mormons believe in a lesser god, a lesser Jesus and a lesser Holy Spirit than is revealed in the Bible, which Mormons also deminish as corrupted scripture. Mormonism holds no similarities with the basic tenants of Christianity. It is a religion built on a foundation of revelation from a “prophet” who engaged in occult activities and brought forth his religion by these means. This religion is not Christian.
Bornagain,
Again, we can’t ignore the details. Others here have discussed who Jesus was. That is really what it boils down to, and our Jesuses are radically different.
I don’t see a point in rehashing the entire argument now, except to say that their natures are very different, and hence our relation to them. The details still do matter, even if you see it or like it.
Ralph and cluff are pretty much saying the same thing, and they are just as wrong. You guys use the same words, but those words mean very different things. You try to sweep the differences under the rug, as if us believing that Christ is NOT a separate god makes no difference.
As to whether or not I believe in JS as a prophet, I’d be curious as to other Mormons take on the question. I have been told otherwise, see, that since he’s a prophet of god, I’d best believe in him for my own good. I have seen similar takes here.
But until you can establish, something that is impossible, by the way, that our Jesus and God are the same as yours, you cannot equate the two.
“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets concerning, Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
Okay, if that is true, then I am confused. Can some helpful LDS person answer these non-rhetorical questions for me?:
Appendage 1: You must be baptized into the Mormon church. I don’t believe/practice this—can I still go to Mormon heaven?
Appendage 2: If male, you must hold the LDS “priesthood.” I don’t believe/practice this appendage—can I still go to Mormon heaven
Appendage 3: You must pay one tenth of all your income to the LDS church. I don’t believe/do this appendage—can I still go to Mormon heaven?
Appendage 4: You may not drink coffee or alcohol, or use tobacco. I do some of the above—can I still go to Mormon heaven?
Appendage 5: You must be washed, anointed, endowed, sealed in the LDS temple, and then regularly attend. I don’t believe/do this appendage—can I still go to Mormon heaven?
Appendage 6: You must wear a particular sort of underwear mandated by the LDS church. I neither believe in nor wear these—can I still go to Mormon heaven?
Please help me understand how the above can be only appendages” when without them I cannot achieve the highest place in eternity that Mormonism has to offer.
MISSUSSLATS,
You kind of stole my thunder. I was thinking that we are probably at that point on this thread to ask the obvious question: “Is Christianity Mormonism?” You know, kind of flip this discussion. Well let see, Christians reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Christians reject the BoM as scripture or even as a historically accurate document, Christians reject the LDS church as God’s true Church, Christians reject the current LDS prophet as a true prophet, and finally Christians reject the Jesus of Mormonism. So if Christianity isn’t Mormonism, then Mormonism certainly can’t be Christianity because there is no commonality to the basic doctrines of the religions. Christians don’t believe in the same God as Mormons and the end game of salvation in Mormonism is entirely different from Christianity.
On a little different subject here, the Mormon doctrine of salvation, in my mind, would lead to total licentiousness because you don’t really have to keep the commandments; if you think it through. You see, in Mormonism, Jesus covers the difference between your works and perfection. So why try? If you are 5% righteous, Jesus will cover the other 95%. So sin away Mormons. There is no hell in Mormonism so that’s no big deterent to keep someone slaving away in the Mormon system. I know that approach won’t get a Mormon into the God program, but my guess is that most Mormons aren’t going for it anyway. They can just settle for a lower level of heaven and call it good.
No Christianity isn’t Mormonism and Mormonism certainly isn’t Christianity.
Missusslats asked:
Please help me understand how the above can be only appendages” when without them I cannot achieve the highest place in eternity that Mormonism has to offer.
Each of the things you mention can be aquired in the next life. That is why we have temples. The baptism you lack can be done by proxy after you die. The ordinances, priesthood etc are all included.
The “Mormon” heaven will have more good people who never accepted JS than those that have.
That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a prophet or didn’t restore the priesthood, it just means that the purpose of life can be accomplished without any of those “appendages”.
We are judged based on how well we follow the dictates of our own conscience. Of course, most people who follow thier conscience for a while will recognize the witness of the Holy Spirit on the matter.
Those who fail to accept JS when the spirit speaks, or reject him to become fo mos, have “seered” thier conscience. That means they have too much unforgiven sin to recognize the witness of the Holy Ghost.
They will continue to insist that God does NOT speak. I know better.
That has more to do with Christ and his redemption, or lack thereof than any of the things you mention.
falcon asked:
” If you are 5% righteous, Jesus will cover the other 95%. So sin away Mormons.”
This concept is dead wrong. The applicable phrase is “we are saved by grace after all we can do”. I always follow that up with the question. How much can we do? Can we keep God commandments? The answer is yes, most of the time, if I don’t allow myself to become distracted, or tempted etc. What we CAN to increases with effort. If we do right, and serve others, then the temptation of sin has no grasp.
The BIG mistake is to tell someone that they are sinners and shouldn’t even try to abandon sin. Now we are back into the realm of Christianity. Even the worst sinner can be saved in that realm.
Oh Cluff, have you still not learned a thing? Do you really think that sinners should not stop sinning? Do you also really have a problem with the worst sinner repenting and finding truth?
I am choosing now to focus your caricatures of Christianity. It is obvious you do not understand the truth that we proclaim. That’s OK, as long as you are willing to learn it, beyond the surface that you seem to view it from.
Dig deeper, ask us what it is we truly believe and take us for our word on it. After all, isn’t that what you want us to do with you?
I say this with sincerity, GRCluff, and not to be disparaging.
Michael P:
Don’t dispair man. The concept that falcon introduces for Mormons is the same concept that I hammer on for Christians.
That is:
What is required of us to merit the grace of God?
The faith vs works argument seems to be a wedge issue for many Christians — one of the reasons why Mormons can’t be Christian.
When falcon says:
” If you are 5% righteous, Jesus will cover the other 95%. So sin away Mormons.”
it is the same concept that I use when I say
“You can sin all you want as long as you have accepted Jesus.”
The truth is not so cut and dried for either one of us. I know Christians don’t use religion as an excuse to sin “all they want”. Mormons don’t either.
I am overstating the case to make my point. Even “saved by grace” Christains have some component of works involved, because no faith = no works. They say grace first, then works.
It’s just that faith that places focus on works is more productive and bears more fruit that faith that puts focus on grace alone. Works first to find God’s grace is an equally valid approach.
Both Mormons and Christains will be saved by grace, and both with be judged according to their works.
Christians are slackers because their focus on grace will produce fewer works. Then to rub salt in the wound, they insist that works are not needed at all. I wish Paul were here to clear that up.
I say the more works, the more faith. Lip service alone will save no one. Christ saves us from our sins not in our sins.
If that makes me less Christian, then so be it.
I will continue to overstate my point– ONLY REPENTANCE saves mankind from the consequences of sin. Christ will save no one IN their sins.
You can sin all you want as long as you have accepted Jesus. are the strongest words I can use to make my point. That IS the risk that Christians take when they put grace first.
I have found that the best Christians are the ones who repent regularly.