Another study has surfaced singing the praises of coffee. Not Mormon Coffee, of course (though surely happy results of such a study will come to light sometime in the future), but scientists have found there is a definite health benefit available to those who drink caffeine-laden coffee in moderation. An article in the Deseret News says,
“Nutrition scientists aren’t ready to recommend coffee as a dietary supplement, but they say something in it is definitely beneficial to controlling the course and perhaps the onset of type 2 diabetes — a mostly diet-based, self-induced metabolism disorder linked to dozens of serious illnesses…
“‘Coffee has surfaced as a beverage with a lot of up side and very little down side with respect to diabetes,’ said Michael Lefevre, a professor at Utah State University’s Center for Advanced Nutrition who is among researchers worldwide trying to get to the bottom of the coffee/diabetes connection.
“Benefits from coffee would appear to defy both logic and the findings of nearly every recent study on caffeine, the bean’s natural stimulant that is concentrated in the brewing process.”
The Deseret News article also points out that some research indicates negative effects of caffeine may negate the positive effects of coffee, yet
“Indications are and if initial data is correct, coffee is shown to help stop the liver from producing excess glucose, [Lefevre] said. ‘Coffee has a lot of antioxidants and that may protect the beta cells involved in diabetes from being damaged.'”
These findings may be welcome and hopeful news outside of Utah, but for many of the residents of that state it is not especially helpful. According to Deseret News, around 63 percent of men and 58 percent of women in Utah “are overweight or obese and therefore very prone to developing the illness.” And while Dr. Lefevre is conducting his research in Utah with “an abundant supply of diabetic subjects,” most of them “consider drinking coffee against their religion.”
The LDS health code known as the Word of Wisdom forbids “hot drinks,” which has been understood and taught by LDS leaders to mean coffee and tea. Therefore, Mormons cannot obey their religion and at the same time realize the health benefits of coffee drinking.
Researchers are busy trying to isolate the diabetes-related health component found in coffee, hoping to someday put it in pill form. For the sake of non-coffee-drinkers everywhere, we wish them success and Godspeed.
I’ll use my last post to correct a small mistake I made – it’s been a long, hard day.
I said “Like Faithoffathers I do not disagree with a total ban on alcohol (from my biological background)…”.
What I meant to say was I don’t agree with a total ban on alcohol. I little now and then, without getting intoxicated (note this word contains “toxic” which is what alcohol is) can have health benefits. But like my afore mentioned friend – the question is how much is too much?
Berean,
I answered the question about JS in a previous post. During his time as prophet the WoW was not a commandment but given as a word of wisdom. Read the first few verses of D&C 89 if you do not believe me. It was not until they had established themselves in Utah, long after JS death, that it became necessary as part of the temple recommend process. So JS was not being hypocritical.
Ralph, I know that the WOW was not a commandment at the time that Joseph Smith continued to drink alcohol, but I think you are missing a very important point. God came to J. S. directly about the perils of drinking. I repeat: God told this to Smith. So my point would be this. If you are not a drinker per se, as I am sure Smith wasn’t, why would he want to drink when God supposedly told him it was harmful. I think even an alcoholic would have a better chance of going cold stone sober if God talked to him directly.
One story I remember of Smith from my youth, is when he had his leg operated on and the doctor wanted to give him a swig for the pain. As it was told to me, Smith broke the bottle rather than take that drink. Funny how LDS stress that story and no mention of any other drinking. Course I remember when I first learned he had other wives. Those stories don’t seem to make it in the lesson manuals.
Why do Mormons make so many excuses for Smith? Oh, and if the answer was the WOW was just a suggestion of good health, why would Smith ignore the suggestion from GOD? Just wondering.
Ralph,
The hypocrisy I am referring to is that the founder of your religion, the prophet of the Mormon god that you sing hymns about (Joseph Smith) is not held to the standard that you are today. If Joseph Smith was here today he would not be given a temple recommend. He drank, he smoked (look at the references I gave in my earlier post), he was involved in plural marriage, etc. I’ve seen very old photographs (black and whites) of tobacco spitoons in the Mormon temples back in the 1800’s. Somehow that was acceptable and okay with your god, but now there is a new deal. The stakes have been raised for you. All those Mormons back in the day climbed the ladder to exaltation and are going to be gods (in your belief system), but your “ladder” to become a god is much different. Seems like a raw deal on your part. I wouldn’t be happy about it. Why don’t Mormons scream “Foul ball!” on this one like they do when Christians point out inconsistencies, contradictions and changing LDS doctrines to our Mormon friends? Once again, we have the Mormon god that can’t make up his mind. His requirements change constantly. In Christianity, God does not change – Malachi 3:6.
You live in Australia. I work in Utah. You ought to see what I see from Mormons over here playing this WoW game. Mormon restaurant workers guzzling the soda and coffee when nobody is around or when a non-Mormon is the only one in there who they think doesn’t know about the WoW. Others drive 50 miles from their home to get a cup of coffee at a truck stop where nobody knows them acting nervous hoping nobody will see them like they are out buying dope or something. All this so they can be righteous to those back home and keep their temple recommend. Then there are others that don’t care. They are inactive and just drink whatever they want and light up at the same time.
What applies to Mormons today that didn’t at the time D&C 89 was written doesn’t change what is written in Romans 14:17.
I find it enlightening that exMos get a feeling of liberation and celebration by knocking back a cup of coffee. There is a ton of symbolism here in this little act of defiance and freedom. They’re basically telling the church to stick it in their ear, “you’re not controlling me anymore.” The Mormon church had squessed enough out of them socially, emotionally, financialy and spiritually and they’re not going to live a life under the controlling tyranny of a false religious system. The “revelation connection to the Mormon god” will control people mainly through fear. Fear of loss is a greater motivator than the desire for gain. So who wants to take the chance of ending up in Mormon outer darkness over a cup of coffee? It’s just the tip of the iceburg on the way to becoming an apostate Mormon. Maybe even grow a beard. In his book “Beyond Mormonism” Jim Spencer talks about the WoW. “The official college position was anti-cola. There were numerous soft drink machines on campus, but none contained cola-only root beer, lemon-lime, grape and orange. As an older and privileged student, I had contacts with the faculty and was invited into the faculty lounges to play chess with the teachers. I discovered that all the faculty lounges had Coca-Cola in them. In fact, some of the lounges were literally stacked with cases of Coke. To my knowledge, it never occurred to anyone to question the procedure. Everyone knew that the president of the college had decreed that there be no cola on campus. The entire faculty and staff knew that the lounges were full of Coke. The students brought in their own supply. Yet no one seemed to think anything was amiss.” Jim went on to write about it in an editorial in the student newspaper and caused a huge uproar on the Ricks College campus. My point Mormon friends is this, eventually Jim Spencer left the Mormon church, got born again, and became a Christian pastor. The moral of the story is: STAY AWAY FROM CAFEINE! YOU COULD BECOME AN APOSTATE!
Ralph says: It was not until they had established themselves in Utah, long after JS death, that it became necessary as part of the temple recommend process.
I guess my question would be, why did that become a necessity for attending the temple? And why just that one part, coffee, tea, tobacco and liquor? What is the purpose of all these rules to get into the temple when church statistics show that it is hard to even get the “righteous” to attend the temple?
IMHO, it is just more of the “club” mentality. Knock three times…..
The sad thing is…
Mormon culture has twisted Utah society to the point that people begin rebelling against God. I do witnessing on the street and I have spoken to drinkers, smokers, and coffee drinkers. They tell me they can’t go to church, and begin a relationship with Jesus, until they stop smoking, drinking, going to bars, etc…
Jesus never said come to me after you stop smoking, or after you’ve cleaned up your life. He said, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (NIV)
This discussion really frustrates me. It is much deeper than just coffee. All of these attempts to obey meaningless rules, made up by man, simply keep people from getting closer to God.
Obeying this rule and that rule is not what the gospel teaches. It teaches we are all unrighteous and we need the blood of Jesus for forgiveness of sin, sanctification, and moral development.
I beg the LDS people on this board to stop sweating the small stuff like Coffee, tea, the occasional alcoholic drink, etc. and get yourselves right with the real Jesus!
Romans 3:
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…
AARON wrote:”…Mormonism’s control over what members can eat and drink… has more to do with identity and boundary markers than principles of health. That is why it is so dangerous. It leads people away from the teaching that one’s identity in the true “circumcision” (cf. Philippians 3:3) is about faith working through love.
I thought these words above worth saying again: it’s not just going above and beyond scripture, but when these ‘add-ons’ are somehow conjoined with our sense of WHO WE ARE, or what our place is with GOD, that something as innocuous takes on, even unintentionally, an unhealthy meaning. That which SHOULD define us, the gospel, takes a back seat to something that has importance, but was never meant to bear the bright lights of center stage (identity and value).
As I’ve said a few times, this kind of error has been, and continues to be, played out on a WIDE variety of religous stages, places, and groups. One hallmark of a healthy church is one that knows how to MAJOR in the MAJORS, leaving matters of conscience to the individual and the voice of the Holy Spirit. Great posts, AAARON and Jessica Joy on this theme. GERMIT
Understand something: God did not give Joseph a complete set of blueprints outlining every detail of the restored church at once. It was a long process involving imperfect people. Revelations were received over a period of years, even decades. It is easy for us to look back and project a very imperfect, inaccurate picture of how things unfolded.
I am not making excuses for the early saints or anybody else. I just think we tend to have such an incomplete view of history, yet we don’t recognize that fact.
The word of wisdom has had a tremendous influence for good and has, I believe, extended lives. It is a law “for the weakest of saints.” To tell you the truth, I never even think about it. I don’t claim any degree of righteousness, but after years of living the law, it is so easy it never crosses my mind (I was anything but compliant in my teenage years).
Again I will point out that, here, you find yourselves fighting, or arguing against something that is good. You justify this by claiming that this law leads people away from Christ (which can be employed to justifying criticizing almost anything). I know of no person who has been led away from Christ by keeping the word of wisdom. In fact, if you ask people who fully live the law, they will tell you it has blessed their lives in a very significant way. And they will likely give praise and credit to the Lord for those blessings- hardly leading people away from Christ.
Bottom line- the word of wisdom either comes from God, or it doesn’t. If the Book of Mormon is true- the word of wisdom is from God. I believe with all my soul that the law is from God, and it has blessed my life hugely.
We are free to see the commandments as heavy-handed tyranny as suggested in so many of these threads. Others see them as a pleasure and a chance to show the Lord how grateful they are for His sacrifice.
“No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with and obey it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.117).
“We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious” (George Q. Cannon, April 7, 1868, Journal of Discourses 12:223).
“The Word of Wisdom is a commandment. In 1851 President Brigham Young gave to this Church the Word of Wisdom as a final and definite commandment. From the time it was given to the Prophet Joseph until 1851 it was considered as a matter of preference or suggestions to the people, a word of advice and counsel. From 1851 until this day it is a commandment to all the members of the Church of Jesus Christ” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.201).
Nevertheless, Smith said it obeying it in his time was required for holding an office. Did Smith not hold an office?
FoF, no one is saying that there aren’t some excellent points of health in the WoW. I take offence that God gave this ONLY to Joseph Smith, when it clearly was taught by others in Smith’s time. By not boiling water and drinking hot soups the saints were actually at peril for disease. And by not stressing the other points in the WoW, the saints now, (high on sugar) are susceptible to the diseases of our time. What gives with this? I will ask again how does this fit in the Lord’s plan, when the WoW so clearly alienates most of the population? Do you yourself adhere to the other concepts of the WoW, the meat sparingly and in season, blah blah blah ,or just the big four? The variations of the big four are also a hoot. Did you know that Postum was approved as a good drink and now we know it is worse than coffee because of all the additives to make it Kosher. My point will always be this: The WoW is exactly that. It is no greater than any other wisdom and it certainly should not be held as a standard of worthiness. Good, good people partake of the four “vices” and should not be written off as unworthy. That is one of the biggest shames in LDS culture, the need to label WORTHINESS.
Response to FaithofFathers:
You said, “I don’t claim any degree of righteousness, but after years of living the law, it is so easy it never crosses my mind (I was anything but compliant in my teenage years).”
Are you living the law? Be honest with yourself. Is living Gods law “easy”? Lets keep it simple. Are you obeying the Ten Commandments continually? Have you always obeyed the Ten Commandments? How many lies have you told today?
If God judges you (with his holy standard) by the Ten Commandments would you be innocent or guilty? If you were “anything but compliant” in your teenage years you already admit that you have broken God’s holy law. If a murderer says I don’t murder anymore would a righteous judge set him free of his crimes?
I’m not judging you at all! But, frankly self-righteousnous will not get anyone to heaven. Someone has to take pay the penalty for our sin. God became flesh (the one and only God) in the form of Jesus Christ and died for our sins. This is not the same Jesus of the LDS faith. John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
If you believe that Jesus isn’t the I AM, that he isn’t almighty God are you prepared to die in your sins? I beg you to repent, and turn to Jesus Christ today so that you will not perish.
Matthew 23:27 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.”
FoF and others: FoF, my friend, I hope this thread has not worn you out, I will resist the urge to throw in a ‘nutrition/caffeine’ joke at this point, is that self-control or what??
I don’t think you (yet) appreciate the strongest part of our argument: the prohibition of Romans 14:17 and Cosossians 2 is MUCH STRONGER and MORE GENERAL than anything JS could have thought up. As Christians, we are not to make commandments out of meat and drink. That’s the force of these two scriptures, among others: the gospel is NOT about a specific dietary plan, the GOD of the Gospel is not into that kind of specific endorsment OR prohibition (AS LAW). Those who make those kind of LAWS do so in cotradiction to the gospel, which is “RIGHTEOUSNESS PEACE, AND JOY in the Holy Spirit” (Rom 14:17) precisely BECAUSE we are freed from having to carry the weight of obeying a COMMANDMENT; we are also free from having to make a judgment about how well our sisters or brothers are doing in the matter, not because it has NO importance, but because it’s non-essential: we can give COUNSEL if asked, but each christian will give a ‘stewardship account’ of how he/she handled his or her health, and there is NO ‘holy diet’ to be followed, just as there is no ‘holy place’ to go to.
It probably sounds like I’m beating this thing to death, but making MANDATORY what God leaves as optional (in the specifics) is going beyond what God has clearly said, and running AGAINST the gospel, even if the dietary idea is healthy. Hope this helps.
Ralph,
I was one the (un)fair LDS board a while back, talking about this very Topic. Unless everyone that was claiming to be Mormon was lying, and I doubt they were, many LDS openly said, We drink Coffee, tea and even dis obey the WoW and either Lie about it in order to recive our Temple recommend, or they openly admit it, because the person doing the interview does not care.
I find it really sad, that I must OBEY A LAW in order to enter the Temple to stand a chance a becoming a God, when Years ago, the LDS simple entered in. So that seems like an unjust and unfair God to me.
Then, we do not read in the Bible any place, in order for us to enter the temple, we must be interviewed, then get our recommend, Why is that? why the change? Rick B (LDS PRIESTHOOD Holder and black coffee drinker)
I think what he meant he has been living the word of wisdom, and he mistakenly called it the law. I don’t think that he would claim he abandoned sin completely as the mormon scriptures command you to do.. would ya FoF?
It’s been a couple of days since my last post, but I want to comment on Germit’s response…
… First, I never said anything about Caffeine, but you can put other things into that category. I was using a basic tactic called Exaggeration. Look, Rick B said that God made all things clean, so my comparison between coffee and crack was utilizing his comments. I’m assuming that’s in the BIble… 🙂 So you missed my logic, and I forgive you for that. IF he made all things clean, then ALL things (including coffee and crack) are okay for us to consume. Right Germit? Help me understand where my reasoning is wrong. Or could YOU please give me your list of things that God didn’t make clean that we shouldn’t consume (maybe crack is on that list).
My question to all Christians… if coffee is okay to drink, tHat’s fine. Is Crack okay too? Marajuana? Alcohol? Prescription drugs? Tobacco? If not, where’s the list of stuff that isn’t okay for us to consume? Is that list in the Bible? Did God make all these things clean? SHould we not worry about consuming these things just because “it is not what goes into us that defiles us, but what comes out of our mouths” (From RIck B the self proclaimed expresso junkie, LDS priesthood holder) THis would be a useful and enlightening guide for all of us lost mormons.
Reggie,
I am guessing you do not know your Bible.
First, Crack is man made, Coffee is not a man made drug. You put on your List Alcohol, Jesus made Wine, and drank Wine, So wine is OK. As far as Marajuana, Our laws tell us this is against the law to use, so even if God did make it clean, it’s still wrong.
Tobacco is stupid, but not against the law, Prescription drugs, are fine, God did not make them, but Jesus did say, the Sick need a doctor, and Luke was a doctor. So the use of Prescription drugs is ok.
Now as far as drugs in general goes, The Bible I believe it is either in Greek or Hebrew says, that the word for sorcery is pharmaca which is the word we use for drugs. last of all, telling us we cannot drink coffee or if we do we cannot atain godhood, but yet when this “law” was given after JS died, the people before the WOW became “law’ you could drink coffee and still atain godhood, that is lame, and a false god who pulls this kinda crap. Rick b (lds priesthood holder
).
reggiewoodsyall says: I suppose God never told us that we shouldn’t smoke crack either… I guess that’s okay. In fact, all drugs that are used by eating, drinking, breathing, etc. were made clean by God, and they won’t defile us. So it’s that what the christian world believes? IF So, then I don’t want to be considered christian.
Okay, Reggie, you have your wish, you are not considered Christian. You couldn’t even be bothered to capitalize it. But could you Mormon-Up and defend why when God gave the WoW to Smith, he all but made light of the idea? You can do the red herring, make jokes, and avoid the issue, but you still have a WoW that, though Smith wanted his followers to heed, he himself took a more cavalier attitude. Could it be that Smith didn’t think the WoW was all that important because there was no threatening flaming sword?
According to Brigham Young, didn’t Emma Smith try to poison her husband by lacing his coffee? I’m guessing that she got rather ticked off at his sexual exploits.
Reggie: I’m a little hesitant to post to you because you seem to make an extreme caricature out of any of our ev.christian positions. Maybe you feel we’ve done the same to you, I’m just guessing there. I’ll be quick.
THERE IS NO LIST. Not in the NT (a departure from how GOD dealt with the JEWS in the OT, and for those Jews who choose to follow those dietary laws, a departure from current Jewish practice). And as far as I know (help me out here) THERE IS NO LIST IN THE BoM either.
Ther absence of a specific list does NOT give Christians to stuff whatever they’d like in their mouths or in their arms (heroin, etc), and to suggest that is an absurd presentation of the christian position. Maybe I can get at this through a question: the Bible clearly says that Jesus declared ALL FOODS CLEAN: what does that clear statement mean to YOU ?? How do we apply that truth today?? Instead of suggesting what WE mean by those verses, maybe you can tell us what that truth means to you, or to Mormons in general.
If I can restate my two points: 1) there IS NO SPECIFIC LIST OF BANNED FOODS OR DRINK for christians, as spelled out by the NT 2)Not having this specific list does NOT give christians liscence to eat whatever they want, in whatever amounts they want. If this seems contradictory or confusing to you, this comment can go further, but (forgive me if this sounds harsh) I’m wondering how strongly you REALLY want to understand the christian position.
Hope this helps. GERMIT
GERMIT – Thank you for answering my questions directly, as opposed to the general experience i’ve had here. (rhetoric). My argument is two fold. First, I know there is no list in the Bible (NT) or in the BofM, so my question was a bit rhetorical in nature as well. I apologize. My point is this… why do Christians (see capitalization for Kitty Kat) believe that somethings are okay, and others aren’t? You say it does NOT give free license to eat whatever you want… but then it’s not against the commandments given by God… right? SO if what you eat/drink/put into your arm is not mentioned anywhere in the commandments, who is coming up with the ideas in the “Christian” world that Heroin, crack, etc. is not okay? WHO came up with that? I can at least give you an answer as to where our (LDS) direction came from. I don’t know why “Christians” pick and choose what is okay and what isn’t okay, and that those things actually change depending on what type of Christian (different sect, gender, ethnicity, etc) your talking to. Also, if it’s not okay to use crack, then what is the eternal consequence for that, if any? You argue that we’re foolish for thinking that the WofW has eternal consequences for those who obey or disobey… I don’t believe that obedience or disobience to any of God’s laws come without an eternal consequence.
To answer your question about food being made clean. God made the plants and animals so that we could partake of them. He however, didn’t make clean every use of his creations. I don’t believe that the tobacco leaf or the coffee bean is unclean, but partaking of it through smoking or drinking coffee does have an impact on our bodies. Someone said that crack is man made… no it’s not, everything came from God. But man has mixed, and combined God’s elements to create different, dangerous substances. Should we eat poisonous berries? Silly question… Not everything that God created was intended to be put into our bodies…
To respond to Reggie, the question of food is something of a non-issue, see 1 Cor 6:12-13 for example… ‘”Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13″Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.’…or Paul’s arguments about the ‘weak’ and the ‘strong’ in Romans 14.
I have no problem with someone who abstains from something as an expression of their faith in God, and I have no interest in persuading LDS to drink coffee or alcohol just for the sake of it.
The question of food, however, was probably more confronting in NT times, especially ‘food offered to idols’ (1 Cor 8). The very real dilemma face by NT Christians (and Jews, for that matter) was that, if they lived in a gentile city, the local temple was where they got their meat (the temples were the ‘supermarket chains’ of the time). The choice was to eat animals slaughtered in the name of the local pagan gods or to go hungry.
A couple of Paul’s comments are worth noting here…”food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do” (1 Cor 8:8). Also, note Paul’s exhortation for us who have more ‘freedom’ than others to excercise discretion… 1 Cor 8:9-13 (look it up). Paul says a lot on this, but he’s only extending the teachings of Jesus (see Matt 15:11, for instance).
The message of the NT is this; if we rely on what we eat or drink to make ourselves worthy to enter the temple, then we’ve lost the plot.
So, do we follow Paul or do we follow JS? You can’t follow both.
Reggie: good questions, and I’m glad that you found at least some of what I typed helpful. The quick answer to why the different christian stances is the same answer you’d give (I think) for different Mormon stances on any number of things: different interpretation. In our case, of the Bible. and in your case, of the four standard works. This may no ‘satisfy’ for an answer, but I’m not going to second guess any other christian’s motives and say ‘they don’t want to do such and such GOD’s way’. This is definitely a non-essential for salvation, so there is room for disagreement on how certain verses will be applied. These verses will talk about CHARACTER and ATTITUDES more that a specific diet.
Phil 4:12,13 “I’ve learned the secret of being CONTENT in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all things through HIM who gives me strength.”
Gal 5:16 “So I say, live by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of your sinful nature.”
1Thess 5:18 “Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.”
1stSam16:7 The LORD does not look at things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.
Hope these verses help. God has a lot to say to each one of us SPECIFICALLY, but HE custom fits the message to each person thru the work of the Holy Spirit: d diabetic, like my wife, gets different marching orders than someone without that condition. More tomorrow, GERMIT
Martin, Reggie: excellent post Martin, you’ve covered some of the essentials much better than I. I might add that for those who foolishly choose to connect their WORTHINESS, either in temple entrance or position in Christ, to a specific diet HAVE INDEED BEGUN TO WANDER FROM CHRIST (not saying they aren’t christian, but they are departing from the clear direction of the NT). Whether these people REALIZE that kind of error is another question, but to make a non-essential an essential is to flirt with or embrace (depending on the individual) a FALSE GOSPEL. This happens in lots of groups that prefer choosing some kind of EXTERNAL marker of ‘who’s in, who’s out’, as opposed to faith and the condition of the heart.
Reggie, I hope you find this helpful. Dietary choices can be and should be very God honoring, but our place or worthiness before GOD is never ‘on the table’, pardon the pun. GERMIT
ps: again, GREAT post from the Aussie down under
Martin- That’s interesting… I read 1 Cor. 6:12-13 differently. I read “All things are Lawful”, not “All things are permissable”. Which Bible are you reading? Oh, yeah, that’s right there’s only one… so which Interpretation of the Bible were you reading? I also read 1 Cor. 8:8 as saying “meat” not “food”. Interesting… In these biblical examples, were they feeding idols hot and strong drinks?
Look, the WofW is exactly that… a Word of Wisdom. You would be wise to avoid partaking of things that can end up controlling your body or things that you can become addicted to. We believe that there is a letter to every law, and a spirit to every law. Some people follow the letter of the law (Thou Shalt not Kill), while others follow the letter of the law (Love your enemies). So is it wrong to kill someone in defense of your family? We would all agree that it’s not wrong. (i’m making a bold assumption there…). So as far as the WofW is concerned, there is the letter of the law (no tea, coffee, alcohol, drugs, etc.) and there’s a spirit of the law (avoid the above, but also pay attention to other things that you eat as well… too much meat, etc.) Now, the key to all of this is that we believe that God has not stopped speaking to his people through a living prophet. We believe that this is a commandment of God, regardless of what Paul said (which is confusing depending on which version you read), regardless of what the jews believed, and regardless of what you say is truth. So, IF this is a commandment, given to us by God himself, then we ought to obey. This discussion can go into so many facets because this implicates our integral beliefs on the need to obey God’s commandments to be worthy of the blessing of exaltation, our beliefs that God restored his gospel through JS, that the Godhead is not all “one” being (which nobody has yet to answer my questions on that topic in past threads), etc. Be wise, and obey.
reggie said, “Now, the key to all of this is that we believe that God has not stopped speaking to his people through a living prophet. We believe that this is a commandment of God, regardless of what Paul said (which is confusing depending on which version you read), regardless of what the jews believed, and regardless of what you say is truth. So, IF this is a commandment, given to us by God himself, then we ought to obey.”
I think when one starts speaking in terms of “regardless of what Paul says” that we need to discern whether or not God would be as incongruent as this statement suggests. Once again, it is an issue of the Bible not being the measuring stick for Mormons, and that the Bible must be measured against their leaders. Then, if what the leaders say doesn’t match the Bible, then the Bible is discarded. It seems like it should be the other way around, which just proves to me even more that Mormonism is a lot of backwards theology. If what the leaders say doesn’t match up with the Bible, then those leaders must be rejected as prophets. In conclusion, I have to reject the Mormon leaders over the revealed Word of God and say: the WOW is not a commandment from God because it is incongruent with the spirit of the New Testament, which is the vehicle of the message of the New Covenant, even Jesus Christ, who died for me so that I might not be in bondage to the philosophies of men (Mormon leaders in this case), and live free in the Spirit. It saddens me that JS has so ensnared generations of good people to believe the lies he perpetrated against humanity. May the grace and peace of the LORD Jesus Christ awaken the souls of my Mormon friends, family, and loved ones, that they might know the truth concerning His Word.
SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA…. my brethren, if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand in the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory? … There is not anything that is little in this world in the aggregate. One cup of tea, then it is another cup of tea and another cup of tea, and when you get them all together, they are not so little (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p.16).
The above was from Joseph Fielding Smith, so my response to you, Reggie, is more a question: is the WoW really just that, a word of WISDOM, a broad guideline to be applied individually as the Spirit leads?? (which I’d have no problem with whatsoever) OR does it carry with it COMMANDMENT status, as JFS certainly seems to tell us. Which is it ??
JackG has done a good job underlining the perils of your post regarding the Bible, I won’t repeat all that only to remark that at least you are being logically consistent because the WoW flaunts the clear meaning of the NT, and your ‘interpretation’ remarks don’t carry much weight with me, I own a dozen or more translations of the Bible, and there is no disagreement here, I’m willing to bet that ‘meat’ was an Elizabethan englishman’s way of saying generically ‘food’. I’ll bet you a pound of dark roast…..just kidding. Again, if you want to give JS a pass on his NT skills because he was THE GUY, well, I can’t refute that kind of argument, it’s irrefutable.
Jack G: you are on your game, my man, both in content and heart intent, press on dude. GERMIT
Jack G – ON your game… The Bible is congruent with the WofW and with the teachings of the LDS faith… you just don’t know it or won’t admit it. We can get into a circular argument about interpretation, but it’s futile at this point. I’ve refuted your comments that you left on why the WofW is not of God, and you haven’t accepted it. I don’t wish argue about interpretation, it’s pretty cut and dry for me. On top of that, it’s not a question of coffee or not, it’s a question of what affect obeying/disobeying commandments has on our eternal progression. We believe that God’s commandments, and our willingness to obey them, will have a significant effect on our salvation. WofW is a commandment, so as such, it will have a significant effect on our salvation. We’re not damning anyone for drinking coffee, but we do believe that they could be damning themselves for not obeying commandments.
Germit – “is the WoW really just that, a word of WISDOM, a broad guideline to be applied individually as the Spirit leads?? (which I’d have no problem with whatsoever) OR does it carry with it COMMANDMENT status, as JFS certainly seems to tell us. Which is it ??” Germit, it’s both! It’s both a commandment and a word of Wisdom. Some things are commanded, and they are black and white (coffee, alcohol, certain drugs, tobacco, etc.), while other things are recommendations (not too much meat, eat grains, fruits, etc.). I liken it to having a speed limit during a snow storm. If you speed on the road, you’ve broken the law. But even if you’re not speeding, during a snow storm you may get pulled over and be given a recommendation as to how fast you should be driving. You may even get a citation. You get my point. I agree on your translation of “meat” and it may even be a verb “to dine”. But, “permissable” and “lawful” are two disaccordant for me to say that there isn’t confusion in some regards to how the Bible is interpreted. Many religions, one bible… kind of confusing
Reggie,
Thanks for your response.
You said “Which Bible are you reading? Oh, yeah, that’s right there’s only one”
Not quite. I choose a consensus principle – I read a number of reputable translations and if my ‘interpretation’ hangs on the parsing of one translation against another, I think again. In other words, the various translations should revolve around the original meaning and intent of the author. So, even if one particular translation isn’t perfect (and the King James has is strengths and weaknesses), then we can still get a good grasp of meaning from the many other good translations around. In any case, the meaning and intent is not too difficult to discern in this case – its not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, its what comes out…but that’s hermeneutics and a little off-topic.
Were they feeding hot drinks to the idols? I don’t think they had tea and coffee at the time, but your question shows a lack of appreciation of how animal sacrifice worked in Biblical times. Sometimes the animal was burned, but more often it was eaten by the people (not the priests) who were sacrificing. Hence my observation about where folks got their ‘daily bread’ (literally). As a footnote, this feature of Biblical life is included in Jesus’ claim to be the ‘bread of life’ (John 6:35).
The ‘entering into the temple’ theme is certainly worth exploring (I really hope the mods post this as a future topic). When the crowds heard the early Christians proclaim that they could enter without circumcision and dietary law, they got really prickly (See Acts 21:28).
From what I see, LDS regard this ‘Word of Wisdom’ as a command and a pre-qualification to entering the temple – you can’t get ‘in’ unless you comply. In this respect it diametrically opposes NT teaching.
Reggie
You said “our beliefs that God restored his gospel through JS, that the Godhead is not all “one” being (which nobody has yet to answer my questions on that topic in past threads)”.
I can’t recall if noone has answered this, or if noone has answered to your satisfaction. If it comes up on an appropriate thread, I’ll do my best to respond.
Martin-
Unfortunately, your response doesn’t prove much to me in regards to the different translations of the Bible. You say the translations all say the same thing, because you have your mind made up on the meaning of any specific passage. So regardless if a different version says something differently, you will interpret it how you please. I would still like to know why so many religions (christian and non-christian) exist and have very different beliefs, yet use the one and only Bible. I don’t mean to down play the Bible in any way, I just think how it’s interpreted is a key issue in this thread regarding coffee and the WofW. Do you know who compiled the Bible?
My comments regarding feeding Idols was facetious/sarcastic, and the context of my comments did not focus on the ceremony, more on the idea of what’s okay and what’s not okay to eat. Thanks for the description anyways.
As far as qualifications to enter the temple goes, we believe that you must be clean to enter into the temple. Hence, if we believe that the WofW is a commandment of God (oh, and that we have to do more than just say “i believe” to be considered clean), then we need to obey before we are worthy to enter. THe logic follows perfectly. If the WofW is a commandment, then we believe we must obey, or else there will be eternal consequences. THAT is the difference in our beliefs… you don’t believe that works have an eternal effect on our salvation. You don’t believe that obeying the commandments has anything to do with our salvation. You don’t believe that we have any effect on our own salvation aside from professing “I Believe!” We believe that we’re expected to do everything we can… our part. WofW just happens to be one of those things that we’re expected to do to be worthy, just like obeying God’s laws of chastity, honesty, integrity, gratitude, charity, etc. No different, you just haven’t discovered it yet… yet. We’ll keep working with you!
Reggie,
Thanks again for your response.
I’m reluctant to to engage further on the Bible question on this thread. Perhaps I can briefly note that I do try to discern the original intent and meaning of its various authors, which steers me away from interpreting it as I please. As far as the compilation and transmission of the Bible is concerned, there is much that can be said; its all interesting and useful stuff but, again, off topic on this thread.
You also misrepresent my view, when you say “you don’t believe that works have an eternal effect on our salvation”. At the risk of getting back on to that tired old ‘faith vs works’ treadmill, I would again note briefly that God redeemed the Israelites first, then he gave them the law. The order of these events is significant; God saves us first, then he calls us to live in obediance because we bear his Name as a living testimony to the world. I’ve posted before that we really need to address these issues in the context of the story of the Exodus and there’s much heat without light when we tackle the issue from the perspective of post-enlightenment cause-and-effect paradigms.
On your final point, I would like to reassure you that I have discovered God’s laws of “chastity, honesty, integrity, gratitude, charity, etc.”, because I see how they work in the way that Jesus lived his life. I have also seen the ruin that folks come to when they abandon these laws.
I would encourage you to keep drilling into the “why” of these laws. If you like, start with the preamble to the 10 commandments in Exodus 19:3-6 and let’s see if you can follow the NT authors and make the connection to the incarnate Word of God.
Reggie: thanks for your endurance on this thread, you seem to be the lone WoW ranger.
You’ve been presented with a dozen or so Bible verses pressing on this issue, and your rebuttal seems to be two fold:
1)we can’t trust the Bible for x, y, and z reasons.
2)God has given us newer, clearer revelation thru JS that is to be obeyed because HE (GOD) gave that as commandments to be obeyed.
Is this a fair portrayal of your position??
The problems with this are several:
1)the Bible is not at all vague about this, and your ‘various translation’ argument is the thinnest of straw men arguments. I could gather ten or 15 different translations to the table and , to me, it would still be painfully (to your position) obvious that there is no specific ‘don’t eat’ list in the NT. In fact, lyou have admitted as much yourself, remember??
2) JS ‘commandments’ then come under question(for me, at least) as being ‘from GOD’ when they CLEARLY CONTRADICT what GOD has already said. I’m left with no good reason that he (JS) spoke for GOD in this matter, and very good reasons (the scripture you have already been given) to believe that he was just ‘winging it’. And since religion of every stripe seems to attract moralists who want an external barometer of who’s ‘in’ and who’s ‘out’ he stood a good chance of getting by with this, and by golly, he did. If you want to gain some traction in this thread, deal with the scripture ALREADY mentioned and tell us why GOD would overturn HIS position, why a NEW revelation would be an OPPOSITE revelation. This seems out of character for GOD to do. Thanks GERMIT
PS: what about the caffeine in chocolate, cola, etc?? why pick on coffee?? what about HERBAL tea?? How is this WISDOM??
Reggie,
You were saying that no one ever seems to answer your question. funny I believe LDS avoid answering lots of my questions also.
So, why dont you answer my question and show us that you in fact do not avoid them as you feel we do.
it has been shown to you and asked of LDS, why is it, JS gave the WOW as just that, wisdom, yet he himself did not obey it, why is that.
then, why is it, the LDS who were alive when it was given, could not obey it if they choose to, but still could enter the temple, because at the time the WOW was not a “command”.
But now, it is a “command” and if we do not obey it, we could be dammned by not entering the temple, theirfore entering a lesser kingdom. Rick b
I suppose I will jump back into this thread to restate what I think is a key point.
Germit- God did give a new commandment in our day. And He explains why. He says in the beginning of the WOW, “In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation.” The way I see it, God knew that the tempter would introduce a large variety of new temptations in the last days involving things a person can put into his body that were not available previously. He therefore gave the word of wisdom before most of these substances were available, and before the huge marketing campaigns we have today were developed.
Yes, there were things in 1833 that could be abused, but nothing compared to today. He is saying in essense that there will be a growing worldy emphasis and temptation to consume damaging things. This is a fairly straight forward concept. It seems He was “tightening up the ship” before the storm.
We can over-think this whole thing. Maybe drinking coffee won’t result in us being cast out into outer darkness. But I think this is an area where the Lord asks us to follow Him and trust. Think of Naaman being told by Elisha that if he washed 7 times in the Jordan River he would be cured of leprosy. Sometimes the simple things were are asked to do may not make sense, but result in great blessings.
And I will say- if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then it follows that the word of wisdom is true revelation. And how can a person know if JS was a prophet- you got it my friend- If the Book of Mormon is true.
FoF and others: thanks for the ping-back, and your points are probably as good an apologetic as you guys have. Hang onto the ‘this doesn’t make sense but…..’ train of thot, while we look at this closer.
First of all, Martin, Jessica and others have banged on the bible drum skillfullly, I won’t revisit that. Let’s look at this ‘evil designs’ thing instead.
The obvious question is : what does drinking SOME hot caffeinated drinks, smoking tobacco, and drinking any alcohol have to do with the many varied drug and substance abuse problems we see today? Is God’s answer a prohibition of these things?? I can see the alcohol connection, and for those who have an addiction problem, one thing could lead to another. Now try and apply the same logic to HOT TEA. Are we making sure that Gram-Mama doesn’t become a meth-head?? We’ve laughed about it, but is ANY kind of tea a gateway drug in ANY sense of the word?? Is this GOD being careful in HIS watch care over us ? You promised me, FoF, that this ‘wouldn’t always make sense…’ and you’ve delivered. And the meat during times of famine or cold??
Not only is this stuff (most of it, I’ve noted the alcohol connection to addiction in general) LOONEY, even YOU guys don’t really follow it: how many SUMMER VEGETARIANS are there in Salt Lake City?? Is there even ONE scientist (yeah, I’m going there) EVEN AN LDS SCIENTIST, that wants to get on board an say that ‘yes, there has been shown scientifically a causal connection between caffiene use and drug use in general…’ I’m guessing not, although if the prophet of God has said it, the scientist ‘AMEN’ is not really needed is it ??
Not smoking or drinking caffeine are good ideas (wisdom) and make for better health. Making NON-essentials a BIG DEAL (any kind of worthiness) is a terribly UN-biblical idea. And just silly. GERMIT
FaithofFathers said, “And I will say- if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then it follows that the word of wisdom is true revelation. And how can a person know if JS was a prophet- you got it my friend- If the Book of Mormon is true.”
BTW, (unless I missed it) you never answered my question whether you are continually keeping the commandments.
Obviously the majority of people on this forum do not believe that JS was by any definition a prophet.
You claim the validity of the Book of Mormon… My next question. What is the most compelling piece if archeological evidence that proves to you that the Book of Mormon is true?
To FoF: my caffeine high won’t leave me alone, sorry……. back to ya.
You mentioned Naaman and Elisha…touche. But notice that this oddity in NO WAY became NORMATIVE, that is , the specific ACTIONS didn’t become some kind of model or rule of thumb, he was held up as an example of TRUST. (Actually, his servant talking him into washing was the hero ;servants don’t get the ‘pub’ they deserve). God doesn’t set up a ‘washing in the river protocol’. John the Baptist’s weird diet doesn’t become a dietary protocol, and I could go on.
God DOES, at times, ask for odd responses, but what HE wants copied and followed are TRUST, FAITH, and OBEDIENCE….obedience to HIM, not a particular protocol. Those who lean on the SPECIFICS, strain at the gnat and swallow the camel. And depending on the generation, 1st it’s THIS gnat, and then it’s THAT one. I know you guys are big into personal revelation and Holy Spirit power (we’ve got Swarthout out of hibernation, I see), is it so hard to see that God directs these things INDIVIDUALLY and thru each believers conscience, and not through dietary LAW (even cloaked as ‘WISDOM’)?? Why reach for the 10 pound hammer on herbal tea and cappucino ?? Reading between the lines: I can tell that YOU personally are very flexible in these matters, but I’m holding your ‘feet to the fire’ because of your church’s stance, not yours.
Blessings on your caffeine-free head. GERMIT
Reggie,
still waiting for an answer.
how do LDS handle these verses?
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Rick B – Sorry Rick B, I was working… at my job… sorry i wasn’t able to get back to you immediately… to answer your questions… I don’t know. You’ll have to ask Joseph Smith why he did or didn’t do something. As for how I would interpret those scriptures, i’ve already mentioned in several posts that I don’t like arguing interpretation on this thread. I can tell you what I think, and you’ll disagree. I don’t want to waste my time (and posts) on arguing about interpretation. If you really want to know what I think… call me.
Jesusfrk- you said “What is the most compelling piece if archeological evidence that proves to you that the Book of Mormon is true?” I will responde with, “Oh you of little faith”. If we needed scientific/archeological proof to mandate and coincide our beliefs, we would be cast into the same category as the pharisees and saducees. I don’t think you want to be a part of that group. That’s one issue I find with the original article on the WofW. Does the report written disprove the WofW just because it’s a learned man that wrote it? I tend to believe that eventually, religion will prove science, not the other way around.
Reggie:
Unless the BOM is entirely allegorical, shouldn’t there at least be a speck of archeological evidence supporting its stories? Archeology is found all the time that coincides with the bible, if the BOM is true shouldn’t it withstand the same tests of the bible? Isn’t the BOM supposed to be the most perfect book on earth?
The LDS church owns the property of the Hill Cumorah. Wouldn’t it be awesome if they excavated the hill and found thousands of dead Nephites and Lamanites? Why don’t they excavate the hill? If bodies were found there I would dramatically reconsider the validity of the BOM. What do you think?
God bless.
jsfreek- I’ll give you a little one to wet your palet…but first I need to know, have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I’ll assume you have… but if you haven’t, I’ll send you a copy, along with two young men that are excited to meet you.
Have you read in Alma/Helman/3 Nephi where it describes the city’s and how they were fortified? Eerie resemblences can be found in photographs from Central America. As far as I know, Joseph Smith didn’t visit Guatemala or the yucatan Peninsula in his youth. Not very good… okay, one more.
Have you ever studied the mayan and Ican beliefs in God? I would encourage you to learn their thoughts on Quetzalcoatl. SOme of their beliefs are on this god are very similar to how the BofM describes Jesus Christ… specifically his visit to the Americas (3 Nephi 11). Speculation…? Okay, you got me… one more.
Have you ever heard of anyone else writing on plates of metal? I would encourage you to use our friend Google (or wikipedia) to find several specific examples of ancient civilizations, some originating in the middle east, that used metal sheets to write important things on. I guess it’s not so far fetched that our boys Nephi and Lehi did so as well. Thanks Mormon!
I don’t know if young Joseph spent his days studying ancient mayan culture, or ever learned of the ways for preserving information in the middle east. Maybe he just had a great imagination that, just by chance, has some mythical coincidences to reality.
Or maybe he saw what he saw, and found what he found, and now, we know what we know. Only time will tell…
The HIll Cumorah idea…I’m not too worried about it. I would much rather see the look of surprise on everyone’s face when someone gets to say, “Told ya!”
If you want more, I’d be happy to speculate with you.
To finish, I will add “This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall be no sign given it…” Our faith shouldn’t be based on science.
Reggie: you wrote:
As far as qualifications to enter the temple goes, we believe that you must be clean to enter into the temple. Hence, if we believe that the WofW is a commandment of God (oh, and that we have to do more than just say “i believe” to be considered clean), then we need to obey before we are worthy to enter. THe logic follows perfectly. If the WofW is a commandment, then we believe we must obey, or else there will be eternal consequences.
And for us it’s more a case of “HE has made us clean, so WE BECOME THE TEMPLE” This thread is probably about done, I appreciatte the back and forth. My challenge to you is to note, as you read thru the New Testament, how devoid it is of anything like the WoW, how sparse the specific prohibitions (though there are some), how focused on the state of the heart and the attachment to the Bread of Life, not dietary rules. I know you recognize other scripture and other prophets, but like that mishie rock group (Adam’s Road….or something like that), read your NT with new eyes and see if what I’m saying holds true.
Look forward to future dialogue. GERmIT
PS: looks like FoF is not the only one looking forward to an ‘evidence of the BofM’ thread.
Germit,
Thanks for the encouragement, brother. I must say that I learn a lot from the other Christians like yourself from this blog. You guys are all amazing!!
Reggie,
I don’t think we can escape the issue of interpretation, especially when considering your 8th AOF. But, that aside, it seems that Mormons are just itching to get back into legalism; in doing so, the Mormons look and act and talk like the Pharisees. I’m glad you admitted that the issue is not really coffee but obedience. Mormons choose to believe that God handed down a “new” commandment with the WOW. I find this to be highly incongruent with the Bible because Jesus gave us a new commandment in addition to the New Covenant. His new commandment is about love, how we interact with God and with each other. I just can’t understand how Mormons focus on the abstinence of a food product as one of the ultimate questions for a temple recommend, which is the ticket to the celestial kingdom. It seems that this is more important than how one treats God and others (yes, I have sat through temple recommend interviews). I know TRs are handed out to people who backbite, lie, cheat on their taxes, etc., but a TR is still given as long as one does not drink coffee.
Basically, if one were to judge what JS declared regarding the WOW as a revelation from God, a reading of Colossians would render his claim as incongruent with the Bible. However, he was crafty enough to establish the 8th AOF to ward off any challenges by those who do as the Bereans and search God’s Word diligently.
God is not a God who hands down commandments arbitrarily for the sake of obedience. Being made holy as He is holy encompasses our character and not our diet.
Grace and Peace!
I had to vote yes because I look at this from a theological standpoint, and this belief falls into the category of Christian dogma–not the categories of doctrine or opinion.
Hope this was straightforwared enough. 🙂
Thanks Reggie for your honest answers.
I would love to speak to the missionaries and again read the Book of Mormon. However, the missionaries probably wouldn’t want to speak to me. I’ve already had my name removed from the records, and been down the LDS road before.
If I promise to research what you spoke of would you promise to read the View of the Hebrews? I’d love to give JS all the credit, but I think he stole most of his material from this book. Maybe its author was the prophet?
http://books.google.com/books?id=thFZYLuCY_4C&dq=view of the hebrews&pg=PP1&ots=PtY7ekDLfS&source=bn&sig=fzNIqXemmOe8OlcNYJONoatZh64&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA137,M1
reggie…I have used the online chat and toll-free options to chat with your young men of late. Usually they tire of me and shoot me the testimony and have an urgent meeting to run off to…Ha!
I know you don’t believe in objective interpretation but in this context Jesus was addressing Jews (who did tend to require a sign before believing…see the Old Testament). Paul also echoed that Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22). I agree our faith shouldn’t be based on science. In fact, faith is the evidence of things not seen (or felt in the belly eh?) according to Hebrews 11.
Sneaking in another rhetorical question…if angels are created beings how did Moroni end up one and why didn’t he make the “god” program? You wouldn’t think a failure at eternal progression would get stuck on top of the very temples that promote it!! Things that make me go hmmmmmmmmmmm…Blessings!!
JesusFreakaleak- I will read your book. I’m sure it will add to my already substantial knowledge (please sense my sarcasm). I’m always open to knew information.
LDSTITTT (the great one who sank)- I think the young men may be trying to avoid what we term as “Bible Bashing”. As missionaries, they try not to get into speculative and circular arguments, rather they try to spend their time on those who are willing to listen and learn. If they consistently run off to a meeting, it’s either because they have one, or they recognize you as the antithesis of what they’re looking for. Or… they don’t have an answer for you! (I almost forgot that possibility! 🙂
Good rhetorical question. Can I answer your question with a question? Who has already been resurrected (please tell me what you believe and then tell me what I believe too… since you know so much about our church)? Is Moroni on that list of people that we think should be resurrected already? Think hard about this one… as soon as someone dies, do they resurrect? Aka, as soon as Moroni died, when do you think he was supposed to be resurrected?
Once you answer these questions, we can continue discussion.
Nice try LDSTITTT… Maybe the missionaries will like that one.
reggie…not sure I fully understood all the questions…but to my knowledge only Jesus (and the saints that came out of their graves) has been resurrected.
According to his book, Moroni wasn’t expecting to have his body and spirit reunited until the judgement…10:34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen. That is assuming my interpretation is correct there. 🙂
So how did he become an angel before that? Does this mean Joseph Smith is now an angel? Seems terribly confusing to me.
Yes…most of the time they tell me I ask very good questions…they just have no answers for me…Blessings!
This thread is closed.