Another study has surfaced singing the praises of coffee. Not Mormon Coffee, of course (though surely happy results of such a study will come to light sometime in the future), but scientists have found there is a definite health benefit available to those who drink caffeine-laden coffee in moderation. An article in the Deseret News says,
“Nutrition scientists aren’t ready to recommend coffee as a dietary supplement, but they say something in it is definitely beneficial to controlling the course and perhaps the onset of type 2 diabetes — a mostly diet-based, self-induced metabolism disorder linked to dozens of serious illnesses…
“‘Coffee has surfaced as a beverage with a lot of up side and very little down side with respect to diabetes,’ said Michael Lefevre, a professor at Utah State University’s Center for Advanced Nutrition who is among researchers worldwide trying to get to the bottom of the coffee/diabetes connection.
“Benefits from coffee would appear to defy both logic and the findings of nearly every recent study on caffeine, the bean’s natural stimulant that is concentrated in the brewing process.”
The Deseret News article also points out that some research indicates negative effects of caffeine may negate the positive effects of coffee, yet
“Indications are and if initial data is correct, coffee is shown to help stop the liver from producing excess glucose, [Lefevre] said. ‘Coffee has a lot of antioxidants and that may protect the beta cells involved in diabetes from being damaged.'”
These findings may be welcome and hopeful news outside of Utah, but for many of the residents of that state it is not especially helpful. According to Deseret News, around 63 percent of men and 58 percent of women in Utah “are overweight or obese and therefore very prone to developing the illness.” And while Dr. Lefevre is conducting his research in Utah with “an abundant supply of diabetic subjects,” most of them “consider drinking coffee against their religion.”
The LDS health code known as the Word of Wisdom forbids “hot drinks,” which has been understood and taught by LDS leaders to mean coffee and tea. Therefore, Mormons cannot obey their religion and at the same time realize the health benefits of coffee drinking.
Researchers are busy trying to isolate the diabetes-related health component found in coffee, hoping to someday put it in pill form. For the sake of non-coffee-drinkers everywhere, we wish them success and Godspeed.
It’s a shame they’re only focusing on the effect it has on diabetes. Coffee -in moderation- has many great health benefits, including lowering risks for heart disease and cancer.
I look at it this way, Jesus never said, we cannot Drink Coffee, he also said it is not what goes into us that defiles us, but what comes out of our mouths, because it really comes from the heart.
Then we are told in scripture, not to judge people by what they do or do not eat, and Jesus/God told Peter he made ALL things clean.
That is more than enough for me to say, the WoW is not really from God.
Now add to that, were all going to die some day, and Coffee will not and cannot kill me. So I will drink up, I even have a food blog, all about food and only for food since I work in the Food bussiness and our Church is working on opening a Coffee house. Once that opens, I will be running the bakery part of it and teaching people how to bake, that is part of my reason for having a food blog. Rick b (LDS priesthood holder and coffee drinker)
Andrea and Rick B: spoken like the blasphemous expresso junkies that I always suspected you were….you had that smell of DARK ROAST about you, with a hint of arabica bean…. next you’ll be telling me that RED WINE has dietary benefits, I mean, get real…. and that’s just POSTUM in my STARBUCKS mug, I swear…. GERMIT
I suppose God never told us that we shouldn’t smoke crack either… I guess that’s okay. In fact, all drugs that are used by eating, drinking, breathing, etc. were made clean by God, and they won’t defile us. So it’s that what the christian world believes? IF So, then I don’t want to be considered christian. Let’s face it, that argument is flawed.
Now, the article… I went to the old trusted GOOGLE and Wikipedia and found a whole host of articles written by different doctors that say coffee is bad, and another bunch of articles that say coffee is good. I also read the same about Red Wine and certain forms of tea. Let’s be honest, if we want to base our religous beliefs off of what scientists/doctors say, then we might as well call ourselves darwinists, not christians. THe LDS church believes that all things physical are also spiritual (I think it says that somewhere in all versions of the Bible… so you can’t get away from that), so the word of wisdom, despite describing the physical, is really a focus on the spiritual. In the old testament, there were things that people were commanded not to eat (despite what Rick b said about all things being made clean… care to re-write what God said in the NT & OT?). So, if God came down to RIck the LDS Priesthood holder and told him that Bread is bad, would he still build a bakery? I would hope not… I’m sure Rick will say, “I would cast that devil out because I know God would never tell me that Bread is bad!” I would hope that all of us have the faith to believe that GOd has the ability to tell us anything at any time, and even if it’s something so simple as not drinking coffee… we should probably obey.
Germit I forgive you for not knowing me, I really am a Ristretto Junkie, Much stronger and better, only the hard core can handle this and very few places make them or sell them.
What is a Ristretto?
A heavy, sluggish, silky and syrup-like espresso ‘restricted’ to about three quaters of an ounce. The red-brown crema reveals a concentration of the finest flavours and captivating aroma a coffee has to offer.
A Ristretto is ‘the purists shot’ and simply offers no compromise! It will either bring out the absolute best in your blend or magnify the worst! In addition to a good blend a Ristretto must be brilliantly prepared and executed.
Rick b (LDS priesthood holder and black coffee drinker)
“Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances (touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?” (Colossians 2:20-22)
We have to remember to read the Bible in context. The NT speaks much about the OT food laws. They were abolished when Christ died on the cross and fulfilled the law. We no longer observe food laws under the new covenant (Gal. 4:9, II Cor. 3:13, Col. 2:16-17). Does “modern revelation” nullify the work of Christ and place us back under the old covenant?
ReggieW: welcome back, Regg, hope you are well in body, soul, mind, and spirit. I would note that you are running a little thin on logic today. So, you are putting CAFFEINE in the same category as crack cocaine? Yes, they are both chemicals, so are aspartane and sacharine and sodium. Are they all evil, as well? I do feel bad (apologetically) for you, because since your big guys found fault (by revelation) with ‘hot drink’, you get the joyful task of defending that revelation to the gentile world. You are off to a weak start. I will agree that JS was attempting to state something spiritual, using dietary principles. Saying something spiritual wouldn’t be so bad IF IT ALL WERE IN THE SUGGESTION CATEGORY. But the Prophet didn’t roll like that, so down from the mountain came the word of wisdom, which seems to be somewhere between a ‘commandment’ and ‘strongly suggested’ or even ‘who cares’ , depending on which Mormon you are talking to (similar to Lent and Catholics, I’ve observed).
For me, the pertinent scripture is Colossians 2:
v20-23: If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were still living in the world do you submit yourself to decrees, such as
DO NOT HANDLE, DO NOT TASTE, DO NOT TOUCH
which all refer to things destined to perish with the using-in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men. These are matters which have, to be sure, THE APPEARANCE OF WISDOM IN SELF-MADE RELIGION AND SELF-ABASEMENT, and severe treatment of the body, BUT ARE OF NO VALUE AGAINST FLESHLY INDULGENCE.
By emphasizing what the bible does NOT: these kind of commands actually INCREASE fleshly indulgence, even if the person treats themself harshly. “Fleshly” meaning fixating on MAN_MADE RELIGION. It goes without saying that there is NOTHING like this ‘word of wisdom’ (positively) in the NT. GERMIT ps: good to hear from ‘ReggW.YA’LL”
Census data have shown that mormons live an average of 86 years compared to 75 years for non-mormons in the United States (Mormon – “How About It Hillary?” Thomas Sowell, Forbes Jan 3, 94 p. 80). There’s something to the word of wisdom!
You have to admit, the introduction to the word of wisdom was quite prophetic: D&C 89:4 “Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation.” Just consider the tabacco and alcohol industries as well as organizations that produce and distribute illegal drugs such as cocaine, heroine, meth, etc. Such an organized, strategic approach to convincing people to consume these substances (some hadn’t been developed/discovered at that time) simply didn’t exist in 1833.
Something interesting to think about!
Does adding cream and sugar nullify the benefits? 🙂
In Christianity, this argument would fall under the theological category of nonessentials, in which there is liberty. I don’t begrudge any group for following a health code the way the Mormons practice their Word of Wisdom. The problem is when a group begins to teach its members that disobedience to the health code will impact a member’s eternity in the way of being separated from God. JessicaJoy is right on with her application of Colossians in this matter. Once again, this issue is about works-righteousness versus justification by faith. It’s an issue we can’t escape no matter what we discuss. The Mormons work from a premise of work-righteousness and making oneself worthy through their behaviors; Christians work from the premise of grace and having Christ’s righteousness imputed to them.
FOF, I understand your argument with regard to the “industries” that benefit from the evils you describe–and you make a valid point. I work for a rescue mission as a counselor in a men’s recovery program. I see the devastation of individual lives and the destruction of the fabric of society every single day as a result of drug abuse. I’m with you on this. But in talking about coffee, I think it’s a stretch to lump it in the same league as drugs and alcohol with regard to social ills. I believe our purpose is to glorify God, and using illicit drugs does not glorify God. I just don’t think coffee equates in this context. We can still glorify God even if we drink coffee–and even if we don’t. 🙂
P.S. FOF, the Church of the Nazarene’s views regarding this subject line up with yours for the most part. Their approach to holiness, I think, is agreeable to LDS-thinking in a lot of aspects. Except for drinking coffee, they don’t smoke or drink because they believe it’s part of being holy and because they fight against social ills. But, they don’t tie it into salvation–and that is a huge difference.
LOL germit -actually I don’t drink coffee at all. One of the side effects for me from growing up Mormon; can’t even stand the smell most days. I’m strictly a hot chocolate kind of girl. 🙂
I wonder if you weren’t allowed, as an old testament mormon, to go into the temple back in the day if you drank wine a few days before?
Also, who did you go to for temple reccomend interviews/cards?
I myself actually haven’t drank a sip of alcohol nor smoked anything in my life (I sound like a TBM don’t I?) The reason was not because I feared my salvation was dependent upon it, but I have seen the adverse effects that Alchohol has on people when they become addicted to it. I was offered plenty of time in my party days but I stayed true which I’m happy about.
Now Coffee on the other hand, I did and do drink from time to time. Except I’m one of those light weights, you know, sugar and creamer with a teaspoon of coffee, lol.
I don’t see anything bad happen to those who drink coffee.. In fact, I’ve seen mormons drink Energy Drinks which is actually very bad for you if you do it consistently enough for long enough. I haven’t seen anyone crash their car into a person because of a caffeine high.
I think its just plain ridiculous and to tie ones salvation upon it is even more ludicrous.
Coffee is my life blood these days. Something about 12 hours a day in class or behind a book…
But I must also admit, this is another interesting topic. Its one of those that I am sure some Mormons will say we take out of context. But the truth of the matter is the JS did have something specific to say when he ‘ordered’ the LDS to not drink hot drinks.
What, then, was that and why?
In addition to the health benefits of living the word of wisdom, there are spiritual benefits. In fact, the fundamental purpose for the law is to provide guidelines on keeping our temples, or bodies, clean and receptive to the Holy Ghost. We can drive that spirit away by the things we do. Can we all agree on that? I do not believe one can feel the influence of the spirit while he is under the influence of a mind-altering substance (i.e. alcohol, illicit drugs, etc). And as jackg noted, these substances too often lead to destruction and sorrow- certainly not conducive to feeling the Holy Ghost.
Smoking causes a wide variety of horrendous diseases- no mystery there; the fiscal implications to our healthcare system are staggering. But this claim would have been considered rubbish in 1833.
Tea has both positive and negative health effects, as does coffee. One negative effect they both have is the addictive substance caffeine. I personally don’t like the idea of my body requiring a chemical to feel normal. I would think it difficult to feel the Spirit when one is withdrawing from anything.
With tobacco, alcohol, drugs, it is a no-brainer, at least considering today’s scientific evidence. I agree it is less clear with coffee and tea. But I trust in the revelation and the fact that we don’t know everything right now.
Keeping this law will not, in and of itself, save us spiritually- of course. Nobody has ever claimed that to my knowledge. But these substances certainly can lead to spiritual death (and physical death too). Maybe the Lord had some interest in helping us avoid such pitfalls and warned us before they became so prevalent.
The word of wisdom also provides nutritional guidelines which have been validated by modern science (herbs, grains, fruits, meats sparingly). All in all, I think this can be considered one proof of Joseph Smith’s prophetic call.
FoF,
Quick questyion, though. Do we need the commands as written in the WoW to know the benefits of? Couldn’t the same benefits come by treating our body as a temple with common sense?
JessicaJoy, I love your comments!
When Joseph Smith wrote “hot drinks,” he meant hot toddy. If he really meant coffee and tea, you’d think that the Mormons back then would have stopped drinking coffee and tea. The current interpretation of the WoW was a way of reclaiming Mormon peculiarity following the demise of polygamy. And if caffeine had anything to do with, then Diet Coke would be banned, which it is not. Although not sold on church property, Mormons freely imbibe it in great quantities. So caffeine is not verboten. Tea is not verboten (as long as it’s herbal). But what if you take a sip of herbal tea, followed by a shot of Diet Coke? Reconstituting the Mosaic Law sure is fun!
To all the LDS who believe in the WoW, How come it denys what the Bible teaches? can you explain why that is? Then how come NO LDS PROPHET has EVER saught the Lord to clarify HOT DRINKS, Then came forward and said, thus saith the Lord.
Seems to me you guys define Hot drinks as Coffee and tea, yet avoid Hot Chocolate, Hot Milk, Hot broth, Hot everything else liquid. Where do you non Prophets get off speaking for God and defining exactly what is and is not a Hot Drink? Rick B (LDS priesthood holder and Black coffee drinker)
PS, Jesus drank wine, turned water into wine, and even said he will drink Wine in the new kingdom after his second coming, but Wine also goes against the WoW, so how can Jesus say that?
After reading some of these comments I wonder if anyone read the article that Sharon has referred to. It does not say that these ‘benefits’ are caffeine related. In fact it says different ”The impact of a variety of dietary impacts on health is the general focus of his research, which currently has been pointing toward anthocyanins, the ubiquitous molecule that provides the rusty red or purple pigment in plants and berries.” It also goes on to say that ”… a risk or complication reduction of 20 to 60 percent among diabetics who drink just one or two cups a day.” NOTE this is only among diabetics looking at potential diabetes complications (ie glaucoma, gangrene of extremities, etc), not the non-diabetic population, AND it’s only 1 – 2 cups a day.
As for the caffeine content, I looked up PubMed under diabetes and coffee and there area few articles from this year that state that caffeine impairs blood glucose management (Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 May;87(5):1254-61; Metab Syndr Relat Disord. 2005;3(1):19-25), while another says ”Study findings support a protective effect of coffee intake on diabetes risk, while also suggesting that abstainers may be at reduced risk. (Public Health Nutr. 2008 Sep 8:1-7) Note what I have bolded – people who do not drink coffee are at lower risk for diabetes. Another report found that there is no correlation between coffee consumption and diabetes, but there is a decreased risk in people who drink 2 or more cups of both coffee and tea per day (Br J Nutr. 2008 Nov;100(5):1046-53). The debate is still going.
Finally, the LDS church is not against using drugs for medicinal purposes if it’s in accordance with doctors’ prescription, for example opiates. If something from coffee was found to have medicinal purposes and became a medication on its own right (ie without the coffee) then there is nothing wrong with using it.
RickB,
Can you give me the references of Jesus saying that He will ”…drink Wine in the new kingdom after his second coming.” When I look in the Bible all I can find are these verses which all say ‘fruit of the VINE’, which could be grape juice, or the juice of any other fruit/berry that grows on a vine, and yes it could also be wine.
I will not/am not arguing about Jesus drinking/not drinking alcohol while on this earth. I have my opinion on that and you have yours, and I know that there are other opinions out there.
Lancaster,
In answer to your comment – ”If he really meant coffee and tea, you’d think that the Mormons back then would have stopped drinking coffee and tea.” Read the first part of the WoW, it says that it was not given as a commandment. It only became a ‘rigorous’ lifestyle commitment for the temple recommend after the saints arrived in Utah. To me this shows God’s mercy – He knows these things are addictive and He waited until the next generation that were not brought up addicted to these, as well as being removed from the source of them so they were not easily available, before He made it a mandate. Just my musings though, not doctrine as far as I know. This is also, from my point of view, why it’s OK for JS et al. to be drinking and smoking, if they were doing it at all.
Ralph, I just have to ask. Since the three quotes are really the same instance, I am not sure your point? I am sure you know that, though, and that he is speaking at the Last Supper, just before he is crucified. So I am not sure your point in quoting them.
I actually think the Bible says the bigger trouble in drinking is damaging one’s witness. There is nothing inherently bad with having a glass or two of wine or a beer or two with dinner. However, when unbelievers see Christians drinking, rightly or wrongly, they view it as hypocrisy.
My old church had a rule that its pastors could not drink alcoholic beverages in public within 200 miles, I think it was, so that people would be less likely to recognize who they were. The church also had rules on cars they can drive and other such restrictions.
Its less about health than it is about appearances, if you ask me. And when I say appearances, I mean that Christians ought to live a blameless life because, in large part, the witness is destroyed when one sees someone sin. Rightly or wrongly, they see it as hypocrisy, and for good reason.
But in the end, you can’t say Jesus ever commanded against wine– drunkenness yes, but wine, no.
I guess you could say that grape juice makes people “glad” too, but I don’t think that’s what Psalm 104 had in mind.
I knew a guy who worked for a large religious organization-in the business department. He wasn’t a member of the group (that had hard and fast rules against partaking of certain substances). Anyway these folks celebrated often and to great excess with food. He said they were fixated with food and their waistlines testified to their frequent over indulgence. I’m sure they were all quite proud of the fact that they didn’t do all of the nasty things the world in general did. I saw some folks of a particular religious group, who dress distinctively and are by and large very legalistic, coming out of a Walmart the other day and one of the gentleman was dragging on a cigarette. He had the correct clothing on of course so he was in compliance with the rules.
It would be quite ironic if Joseph Smith was forbidding the drinking of coffee while he was chasing every skirt in Nauvoo. Revelation is a wonderful thing!
I searched the Word of Wisdom for a couple lines I knew were in there about not eating meat except in the winter or times of famine. Why are most Mormons not vegetarians as well? I see no other way of reading this text – don’t eat meat unless you’re starving or it’s cold outside. Is this one of the questions for getting a temple recommend – “did you eat meat this summer??” How sparingly do Mormons eat meat? I do not know of any large vegetarian Mormon movements (such as are seen among the Seven Day Adventists). Coffee = easy way to restrict others on non-essential matters. Meat = difficult way to restrict others unnecessarily. I think Falcon’s observation that while Joseph Smith was inventing rules for others, he was not even observing the most basic moral rules for a Church leader is right on target – but that is the way of false prophets.
Here is the text referring to meat:
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
Faith,
I have to admit, I have never thought of Coffee as a “gateway drug” – but I have to admit that it has lead me to try Espresso, Iced Coffee drinks, etc. 🙂 At first that was the impression I got from your first post, but I re-read and saw it was a general defense of the Word of Wisdom.
I must say everything (besides coffee, hot drinks, tea) that is in the WOW can be seen in the Bible – eating veggies and abstaining from fatty foods with too much meat (Daniel & team abstaining from the King’s portion), the Biblical warnings regarding drunkenness (but as as been noted, wine is not outright banned), treating your body as the temple of the Lord – all these things are found in the Bible. I have no need nor use for the Word of Wisdom. God has already revealed how we are to treat our bodies (and is has nothing to do with not drinking green tea).
On another note, I recently went to China and I must tell you, the no hot tea thing is going to be an uphill battle for Mormons – if you think Americans like their coffee, you’ve got no idea how integrated hot tea can become in a culture.
MichaelP and Aaron,
My point with the 3 verses was to ask RickB, as he does us LDS, to support his statement from the Bible. He said that Jesus prophesied He would drink wine in the new kingdom after His Second Coming. What I said was all I knew from the Bible was that Jesus only prophesied that it would be the fruit of the vine that He would drink, and was wondering where RickB got his info from. Jus t as long a he can back up what he said it doesn’t bother me – I would have learned something. If he can’t back it up then we have to make sure a wrong is corrected.
But let’s go to a couple of ‘old friends’ – 1 Timothy 3:2-3 and Titus 1:6-8. These, as most of you would know, have the requirements for a bishop. These verses have been used in the argument against polygamy with many of you quoting them and saying that it also refers to us. Well if we read in there carefully, it also says that they should not be taken to wine. Does this also refer to us like the mandate of only one wife, or do you just want to pick and choose?
Mobaby,
Good question about the eating of meat, I don’t know the official stance on this. My opinion comes in a few forms. I know of people that eat meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner (and pile it on for dinner), especially in the summer with the barbies going. This is an excess of meat consumption and could be what is meant. From what I have learned from dieticians 100g of meat (preferably lean) or protein (ie eggs) a day is all that is needed for a healthy diet. And some research has shown that eating too much red meat can cause bowel cancer.
Another is that in those days they had no refrigeration, so keeping meat fresh for a few days was next to impossible, so to keep down the possibility of eating bad meat, winter was easiest to keep meat fresh or if you ate it straight away (ie starving). Now-a-days we do not have that problem.
But that’s my opinion.
This discussion is providing the Falcon with lots of chuckles this morning. I’m really having difficulty taking it seriously. I guess it’s because I grew-up in a heavily legalistic religious environment which I extricated myself from as a young adult. To get alittle bit serious here. Christ released me from the yoke of the law. Why in the world would I want to go back and entangle myself in something that has the appearance of holiness but has no power to deliver me from my sinful nature? As the Book says, I now live life by the power of the Spirit and not by the letter of the law. So many groups try the legalistic route just to get themselves turned around and tipped upside down looking for exceptions to the rules. They become rule centered rather than Christ centered.
Look Mormon friends, as I’ve often advised you, if doing the grind of Mormonism makes you feel righteous have at it. I realize your goal is to hit the inner rim of the Celestial kingdom where you can achieve deification and rule over your own planetary system. I’m just wondering, as a god can you make-up the rules for your own planets or do you have to do what your up-line god dictates? I suppose they have council meetings with all the other gods where important matters like whether or not to allow the mortals coffee drinking privileges are discussed and worked out. I wonder if they serve coffee at these council of the gods meetings?
In looking at the history of civilization, one can see an obvious characteristic of the last 150 years compared to all previous eras. Among other things, the diversity of substances available to get one “high” and escape reality dwarfs those available previously. Never has there been such effort to market these “products” either- and by shady methods.
Do you think it impossible that the Lord would maybe warn His people about such dangers? It would make sense to provide guidelines that might be a little more strict than in other dispensations due to those dangers.
I agree that there is probably very little wrong with an occasional wine- even some benefits. But in an environment and culture of indulgence and drunkeness, it makes sense to me to take extra care to stay away from any form of mind-altering agent.
The Lord, knowing the beginning from the end, knew this was coming and warned His people. The church originally used wine in the sacrament, but was instructed later to use water instead.
Anybody care to comment on the fact that on average, LDS live 11 years longer than the average U.S. citizen?
FoF and others: this topic started off light and silly (you can blame GERMIT for some of the silliness, must have been the Cafe Verona kicking in) but is actually well worth the time and attention. The real core issues are NOT the benefits or hazards of caffiene, or even drinking red wine in moderation, the real issues are using OBVIOUS non-essentials to gain some kind of right standing with GOD , and religious pride and/or judgment: pride if you toe the mark, judgment on those who haven’t made the grade. Let me be clear, I have NO IDEA (with certaninty) who is being proud or judgemental at any given moment, but isn’t this the REAL danger, and the reason why GOD went out of HIS way to NOT prohibit certain foods or drink (even ALCOHOL, and Ralph, the argument that ‘juice of the vine’ is NOT alcoholic is thin to the point of absurdity). Sure seems to me that GOD is much more concerned about religiosity and swallowing the camel of legalism than straining out the gnat of a slight health improvement.
THe NT spells it out: no GLUTTONY, no drinking IN EXCESS, no being CONTROLLED BY anything or anyone other than the HS, but always being wary of making rules where GOD DOES NOT. This , to me, is a perfect case if GOD NOT saying something on purpose. JS did not give us a restored upgrade, he was playing the revelator in an area that is obviously no big deal (hot drinks, meat in summer, a glass of wine) to GOD. This may sound odd, but the fact that JS had a glass of wine now and again shows that even HE saw the WoW position was too much. I don’t ‘ding him’ a bit for that, I could have shown him where to find a good-and-cheap merlot.
FoF: the life span of LDS show us they follow some wisdom in how to live, the same could be said for a WIDE variety of groups, holding a WIDE variety of beliefs, nothing ‘of GOD’ is needed to explain that.
MikP: the church should be MUCH more concerned with the hipocricy of ‘sins’ MUCH worse than coffee or ONE glass on vino.
Mark Twain said it best: “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Mormons are a self-selected group, not a cross-section, generally well-educated, married, non-smoking, and middle to upper-middle class. In contrast, the Japanese and the Italians–not small groups comprising a few percent of the population–are currently the world’s longest-lived peoples. But beating everybody–including U.S. Mormons–are affluent Asian-Americans. And all U.S. Asians are only a tick behind. By this reasoning, we should adopt the collective lifestyles of Japanese, Italians, and Asian-Americans, which means consuming much more tea and wine. Let’s get started! (On a scientific note, one factor empirically shown to significantly increase longevity is calorie restriction, something Utah Mormons fail at abysmally.)
Lancaster,
Are you implying obesity is more common in Utah than other places? Actually, only 6 states in the U.S. have a lower obesity rate than Utah. Unfortunately, that is not saying much these days as this epidemic shows no sign of slowing.
Yes, if person uses common sense these days in the context of modern scientific evidence, he can live a well-balanced, healthy life. But much of this was not “common sense” in 1833- they didn’t have the benefit of this scientific data. Tobacco use is a perfect example. It is not mentioned in the Bible. In 1833, Smoking was considered good for the nerves and was thought to extend life. The WOW was not common sense back then.
Germit, I do not intend to brag. I am unfit to do so. I am defending what I think is an inspired law in the context of criticism from others. Don’t get me wrong- I see plenty of humor to point out here and have no problem with that.
FOF,
For the most part, I agree with you from the standpoint of social ills. I do think others are making solid points with regard to the issue of temple recommends. Obesity is also a huge part of social ills and negative financial impact on the health care system. Unfortunately, there are many temple-recommend holders who are obese. So, it seems that the push is on things like coffee, tobacco, drugs, et cetera, during the course of a temple recommend interview. What are your thoughts on the issue of obese people not being disciplined with regard to WOW standards which includes moderation in all things?
You said, “I agree that there is probably very little wrong with an occasional wine- even some benefits. But in an environment and culture of indulgence and drunkeness, it makes sense to me to take extra care to stay away from any form of mind-altering agent.”
I just want to say that this is very noble, and I commend you for it. I, for one, would never ask you to drink coffee or a sip of wine just to prove that you have converted from Mormonism to Christianity. (I’m not suggesting anyone else on this blog would want that, either. :-))
You also said, “Anybody care to comment on the fact that on average, LDS live 11 years longer than the average U.S. citizen?”
That’s a great fact, but I think the focus of the discussion has to do with following the WOW because it leads to a temple recommend which leads to eternal life in God’s presence, etc. Sometimes, I’m a broken record, I know, but it all comes back to focusing on our human effort to gain God’s presence as opposed to being justified by faith and everything else is in response to God’s grace. Health code because of the benefits you described–sure thing; I’m on board. Health code as a commandment necessary to be observed to gain salvation–sorry, but I can’t get on board with that. Good dialoging with you, FOF.
Grace and Peace
1 Timothy 3:2-3 and Titus 1:6-8 preclude drunkards as leaders, not responsible social drinkers.
I remember being asked by a Mormon co-worker in Provo once (I’m not sure what brought it up),
“Are evangelicals allowed to drink?”
“Yes.”
“How do you drink without getting drunk?”
At this point, another co-worker, who was very embarrassed over his fellow Mormon, answered,
“You just don’t drink a lot.”
Second story:
Later, when our boss ordered pizza for us, he asked us what we wanted. Some asked for peppers, olives, etc. I asked for a “Gentile pizza”. The room, full of about five Mormons, looked at me with sort of a silence of confusion. And then I sheepishly realized that Gentile to them meant “non-Mormon”. I smiled and said, “What I meant was bacon and sausage. You know, like non-kosher?”
“Oh.”
Third story:
When eating a hot dog, someone asked me (if I remember correctly) why I didn’t go downstairs and put some ketchup or mustard on it.
“I can’t, eating mustard is against my religion.”
“Really?”
I smiled and enjoyed my hot dog.
Man-made religion is so silly. As Jessica referenced…
The regulations look wise on the outside. They get you a lot of clout with Muslims, Mormons, Pharisees, and legalistic Southern Teetotalers. But Jesus just laughs. And the only way you can laugh with him at yourself is to repent of religion and start embracing the Sermon on the Mount and a heart-focused relationship with Christ. Prostitutes and liquor-store frequenters are much closer to the Kingdom of God than food-regulating religious people.
Enjoying the New Covenant,
Aaron
FoF: Just to be explicit, YOU are NOT the kind of person, from all that I can tell, that needs the ‘religious pride’ sermon from me or anyone else. I appreciate the fact that you can accept a little humor surrounding this topic, I’m not trying to mock anyone, but the absurdity of the ‘thou shalt not’ arguments EVEN WITHIN THE EV. CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY hit me so hard I don’t know whether to laugh, cry, or slap someone and call them MAMA.
These kind of things are always good for some kind of laugh: I spent 12 yrs at catholic school that thot it more modest to put girls in short skirts than pants, culottes, shorts, or anything else. The temptation to dream about those legs still hits me 35yrs later, and Lord knows the trial that was for the celibate ‘brothers’. I’m not saying that GOD has nothing to say about modesty, or self-control, or addiction, or gluttony, but I think the NT is specific where it needs to be (Ralph: NOT ADDICTED to wine…) and vague where being vague was GOD’s idea to keep us from legalism and false religion. Adding to that IN THE FORM OF SOMETHING STSRONGER THAN ‘THUS SAYETH GERMIT’ OR ‘THUS SAYETH FoF” is a very bad idea, not because the dietaryscientific part is wrong, but the religious spirit that will use EVEN A GOOD IDEA to take root and cause all kinds of hell (I use that word on purpose). We end up the ‘diet police’ or the ‘masscara police’ or the ‘skirt length police’ and on and on…. the hypocrisy of all this is NOT lost on the lost, if you catch my meaning: they think we are ALL self-righteous PRIGS, as we (fundamentalists included) fight ourselves raw over how much caffiene, etc., while tripping over the homeless on our way to our middle class white collar jobs, where the NON-caffeine crowd is free to order up a Diet Coke..
Ridiculous, and I’m NOT talking about just the LDS here….. The SOCIAL ILL that the church should be REALLY concerned about is being judged by the world at large, not as FALSE, but as IRREVALENT.
FOF said “Do you think it impossible that the Lord would maybe warn His people about such dangers? … The Lord, knowing the beginning from the end, knew this was coming and warned His people.”
Ralph said “in those days they had no refrigeration, so keeping meat fresh for a few days was next to impossible, so to keep down the possibility of eating bad meat, winter was easiest to keep meat fresh or if you ate it straight away (ie starving). Now-a-days we do not have that problem.”
So your God -“knowing the beginning from the end”- knew that all kinds of hard drugs would be more readily available in the future, but didn’t foresee the invention of frigeration? God bless you guys, this is why we get so frustrated with Mormonism. Contradictions in doctrine are inherent but contradictions also come about when ‘you guys’ (being general here) come up with all these explanations to defend your doctrines or habits.
Looking at 14 different translations of 1 Tim 3:3 and Titus 1:7, they all agree that “not given to wine” means addiction or drunkenness. No where does any translation suppose this to mean never drinking wine, but I guess that could be those apostate wicked men translating/copying scripture again. (haha) As for overweight/food addicted Mormons -almost my entire extended family is testament to that. (And yes we grew up in Utah.) It didn’t occur to me until recently that food didn’t need to be central to a get-together.
Great post Aaron! Your statement about a heart-focused relationship with Christ reminded me of a question asked. How does one strengthen and exercise their faith other than repentance and keeping the commandments? I answer with a true, intimate, personal relationship with Christ!
Faithoffathers wrote,
Just to set the record straight, Joseph Smith issued the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom at the same time the temperance movement was taking hold all over America. Beginning in the late 1700s, by 1834 (the year after D&C 89 was delivered) there were over 5,000 temperance societies in the U.S., all decrying the evils of alcohol.
Tobacco was believed to be a “nerve-prostrating, soul paralyzing drug, a fleshly, ungodly lust.” Coffee and tea were considered “as bad as toddy-guzzling” and the Journal of Health (published between 1829 and 1835) recommended a vegetarian diet or a sparing use of meat for good health (see Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History, 166).
Scientific evidence to support these ideas may not have been available in those days, as faithoffathers says, but the Word of Wisdom did fit very nicely into the cultural context of 1833 America.
faithoffathers stated:that the WoW was one proof of Joseph Smith’s prophetic call.
I had also been taught that the word of wisdom given to J.S. was unique to that day. That no one else even suggested in the 1830’s what faithoffathers has stated makes Joseph Smith a prophet spouting these new fandangled health ideas. This is just one of many mormon urban legends that have been proven false.
Whitney R. Cross gives this information: “The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830’s it attained national scope… Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord’s design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong…Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival ‘got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society–no tea, coffee or any other slops.'” (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212) Joseph Smith copied those ideas as surely as he copied the Book of Mormon.
Coffee is the one thing in the word of wisdom that borders on the ridiculous.
When I think of the many times that someone from work wanted to meet over coffee to discuss things and they ordered coffee and I ordered Pepsi, I could just literally cringe. The benefits of coffee to me are, you have to drink it slow, so there is that whole pondering thing going on. It makes you take a break, because you can’t just gulp it down. It helps foster relationships because of the same “not hurry” attitude. While I don’t drink liquor or smoke, I will defend to the death my right to drink coffee and shun off those feelings of being unworthy when someone from an old ward gives me the glare when they see me at McDonalds imbibing the evil dark liquid.
Ralph said I said
Ralph, please quote me correctly, I did NOT say Jesus PROPHESIED he would drink, that would make no sence, that would be like me saying, Ralph, I prophesy I will reply to you later.
What I said was
Now the verses you posted are the verses I use to come to this beliefe. I know you want to say, fruit of the Vine does not mean Wine or alcohol But if you look through the Bible, all the Times Fruit of the Vine is used, seems to imply Alcohol or a substance that will impare you, like Alcohol.
Also on your verses from Timothy, even if you say, No alcohol for elders or Decons, not every member of the Church is an Elder, Decon or pastor.
Plus when it comes to the WoW, many LDS have claimed the Wine Jesus drank had zero Alcohol in it, if this was the case, How could Jesus be accused of being A drunk? Some members of the Church in any given state or country have the freedom from God to drink, some do not.
My freedom might not be the same as falcon. I might be allowed by God to drink Coffee or wine, where Falcon or others might not. But yet they might have the freedom from the Lord to Eat Bacon or watch scary Movies and not me.
I will not be allowed or denied entrance into heaven based upon eating or drinking or not eating or drinking, it is based upon what I do with Jesus, Believe or reject him. Rick b
In reading through these posts, I am reminded by Paul, who said he can do all things, though not all things are profitable. What does this mean?
I think it means that we are free to act, and to do many things. But we must act carefully. Part of the reason for the ‘ban’ on alcohol at my old church was this: 1 Cor 8:9 “Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.” Paul is speaking about the freedom to eat meat, specifically. But the idea can be applied elsewhere. We are free to act, but if our acts make others fall, we ought not to do it.
We also see in Titus 1:15 this thought: “To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.” He’s talking about ideas and identifying the rebellious, but the thought is interesting in this debate, no? To the pure, all things are pure…
So, based on this information, (and there is so much more on the topic of our freedom to act), it is not what we put into ourselves, but what where our heart is. Hence, the argument can be made, and I think it is strong, that what is important is that we believe in Christ and submit our whole selves to him. If we do that, does it matter if we have a cup of coffee? If not, why have a regulation saying you can’t?
Suppose I will go ahead and burn my last post of the day.
Sharon- I never claimed that inspiration was exclusive to the LDS church. We believe God does inspire people in all countries and cultures. In your post you point out that the word of wisdom taught things supported by others at the time. One could think or imply that this means he merely copied the other movements, or at least that he was not original. I will give you the point that others also taught similar things.
But to say that anything close to a majority of people at that time believed these substances to be harmful is overstating the point. It was not the “cultural norm” to believe this. As recently as WWII, soldiers were told- and most of society believed- that cigarettes were relaxing and good for health.
Kitty- what about the introduction to the wow “in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days”. You have to admit this was prophetic, was it not?
To all who have commented that such matters have nothing to do with salvation- few things have a more direct relationship to our temporal salvation. Name something that has a closer relationship to our longevity and health than these principles. But your point is valid that this law may not be the most important to the Lord. But it is something I believe comes from the Lord, and I won’t pretend to speak for the Him as to which commandments He wants me to keep.
By the way, I do think Jesus drank wine on occasion and will again drink wine in His kingdom as alluded to earlier.
My Pastor was telling us a few months back about Some church group that makes you sign a form in order to be a member saying you will not dance or go to the Movies.
Yet when he went over to their houses, these people had movie collections bigger than most stores. Yet they tried to justify it by saying, it’s not the movie theater.
rick b
Faithoffathers, does Jesus command us to not drink coffee?
Does drinking it really affect our salvation at all? How?
What about Paul? Does command us to avoid coffee?
So, where does JS know something these two did not?
BTW, I think you miss Sharon’s point. Read it again, and ask if she is really overstating that it was not uncommon to see the idea throughout the country. If his thought was prophetic, it wasn’t very original.
FoF and others:
1st to FoF- about the ‘prophecy’, this won’t shock you, but I find it kind of lame and non-descript. “Evils and designs in the hearts of men…” To me, that’s a NATIONAL ENQUIRER kind of prophecy, I mean, when has there NOT been evil and designs in the hearts of men??? That’s vague enough to fit whatever future scenario comes up, with room for a Hummer to spare.
2cd to ANDREA: CHOCOLATE, huh??? Getting your buzz thru the side door, huh ?? No surprise here, you’ve always had that sneaky ‘look ma, no-hands’ kind of look about ya….at least you came clean.
back to FoF: of course our HEALTH affects every other part of us, and comes under the Lordship of Christ. But it is no accident to me that GOD HIMSELF saw fit to give us oversight in these health and diet matters in terms of PRINCIPLES and WISDOM, and not (in the NT, at least) a specific ‘eat this, don’t eat that’ format. Those who were big into that, Paul called ‘weak in conscience’…..NOT ‘closer to the Lord’ or ‘closer to what GOD had in mind’. Having a specific dietary plan for yourself and encouraging others to follow suit is GREAT: some of us know a LOT about diet, exercise, healthy habits, and on and on. But when these things take on the “THOU SHALT” status, we’ve gone farther than GOD HIMSELF went in HIS WORD. This is ALWAYS a bad idea, even if the specific course of action is physically healthy.
I have two siblings who have gone for substance abuse treatment, so I am NOT condoning a loose style of living, but the church at large has been LOONEY about alcohol for decades, giving someone the ‘evil eye’ for ONE BEER, while eating their 3rd Big Mac, or gossiping about their neighbor in prayer meeting, etc..
The clear sense of it, to me, is NO, JS did NOT have it together THEN OR NOW: Holy Spirit led eating and drinking was the plan in 1834 and 2008. We didn’t need a ‘new rule’ then, and the ‘new rule’ today doesn’t even necessarily make us physically healthier , let alone holier.
faithoffathers, while I do agree there is some substance to the WoW, I am more annoyed at which parts of the WoW are stressed. It should have remained a choice, free agency and all, and not a matter of deciding the worthiness of the membership. Health-wise, it is a proven fact that being overweight and choice of certain foods, do contribute to Diabetes, and taxes the heart. You can plainly see when a person over indulges, yet that is not a criterion stressed. So, it’s decided if members drink alcohol, coffee & tea and use tobacco, except for their horses, they are UNWOTRHY. No other wisdom is addressed. (BTW, treating horses with tobacco was another notion from that day that didn’t pan out either.)
I am bothered that Smith & Young, after being told directly from God not to drink, would open and support a bar, which they did. I just don’t see any way to rationalize it, except MONEY. I am also annoyed that J.S., while “being led like a lamb to the slaughter,” took sips of the whiskey he bought for the guards. Man, they just don’t teach that stuff in Seminary. They put it in a 7 volume church history, with small print, that few want to read;)
I’m thinking this ban on coffee etc. has less to do with dietary concerns and more with the controlling nature of Mormonism. For a group that likes to talk about free agency Mormons don’t offer much of it to their members. I recently read of the five controls of Mormonism. The writer cited social control, time control, emotional control, financial control and relationship control. I don’t know why members put up with that kind of culture of control. I’m guessing that’s why two-thirds of those on the Mormon membership rolls are “inactive”. Under the mantra of righteousness and holy living, Mormonism exercises control and meddles in what it’s members can eat and drink. I don’t think this is a religion for grown-ups.
I would say that Mormonism’s control over what members can eat and drink is tantamount to the Judaizers’ attempt to control whether those not circumcised were part of “true” Christianity. Functionally, it has more to do with identity and boundary markers than principles of health. That is why it is so dangerous. It leads people away from the teaching that one’s identity in the true “circumcision” (cf. Philippians 3:3) is about faith working through love.
I enjoy talking to friends while drinking coffee. I also enjoy talking to Jesus while drinking my coffee.
Can’t the LDS faithful see that all of this meaningless discussion of things obviously not in “God’s Word” actually lead you away from Jesus?
falcon, deep down I think you know why Mormons put up with the culture of control. Because they are the special people and will get into the Celestial Kingdom if they do what they’re told.
For the record, I’m not being snide so let’s not get up in arms about this please.
Germit -you got me!
May I just touch on something about context here? We interpret scripture in light of scripture. We pound on knowing the context of the surrounding verses, the addressor, the addressees, and the history for any given scripture. So Ralph, even though many other groups were adopting a no-coffee-tea-smoking-alcohol code at the same time, JS was a prophet, even if not original. Also, at the same time, may other people were coming up with their own religions, but JS was a prophet (even if not original). There’s many other “behaviors” of JS that were not original to him (although like Kitty said they are taught as so), but we’re supposed to believe that JS was actually the real prophet and all the other guys were just schmucks. Why do I say this? When we look at the context of the origins and rise of Mormonism…the overall message is that JS is not a prophet of God, he was just very good at incorporating others’ ideas.
Ok, let the flaming begin.
Andrea,
The only ‘flaming’ I’ll give you is that it wasn’t me that wrote about the other groups coming up with similar ideas at the same time.
The comments on ‘moderation and ‘no gluttony’ are what its all about, but what does it really mean? I have a friend we call the dynamo drinker. For those who don’t understand ‘Dynamo’ is a laundry detergent and their initial ad campaign stated ‘a third of a cup on the stain and the rest in with the wash’. That’s what she was like when she had alcohol, a third of a cup and she was in with the wash. So what’s ‘moderation/non-gluttony’ for her?
I have said this before but I’ll say it again – My biochemistry lecturer, from his research, believes that women should not drink at all and that men should only have 2 cups of a fine chardonnay a day maximum. This is because of the antagonistic effects alcohol has on testosterone/androsterone. These hormones enhance the risk of artherosclerosis so a little alcohol helps decrease that risk. Whereas women do not have these hormones at levels to worry about.
Like Faithoffathers I do not disagree with a total ban on alcohol (from my biological background), but since I believe in sustaining the prophets, I will follow their advice and refrain from drinking it. As for tea, coffee and tobacco, they have many more things against them than for them in my books so I will leave them alone.
As far as obesity, food is not the only thing that causes it – our modern sedentiary life styes are another factor. Sleep, car/bus, work, car/bus, TV, sleep. Very little exercise, or very little time for it. I try to ride my bike to work, it keeps my weight down. Just don’t supersize me.
Mmmm, coffee. I have been trying to make up for five years of mormonism by drinking enormous quantities of coffee. Each cup good to the last drop!
Falcon, thanks for letting me know about this thread topic. I thought I would take a break from my studies for a moment and add briefly to the discussion despite all the many things that could talked about regarding D&C 89 in comparison with other D&C revelations and scriptures in the Book of Mormon that show contradictions. I look forward to sharing those later.
For those Mormons that think this issue of coffee/tea or other hot drinks isn’t a salvation issue (becoming a god), they are sadly mistaken. Heed the advice from the prophet:
“…are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand in the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God?” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, page 16)
Compare that “revelation” with the revelation give to the Apostle Paul who trumps any Mormon prophet today. This verse sums it up pretty well:
Romans 14:17 – “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”
Why are Mormons busting their tails to live by the Word of Wisdom when Joseph Smith didn’t? Mormons would be well advised to read through their church history books and see the blatant hypocrisy of Joseph Smith. He had rules for church members that differed from his own. Here are the references for my statement:
History of the Church, Vol.2, pp.369 & 378; Vol.4, p.120; Vol.5, p.380; Vol.6, pp.111 & 616; Vol.7, p.101
Drinking hot, green tea, which is very healthy, has nothing to do with salvation in Christ. It’s sad that the Mormons want to live under bondage in legalistic, man-made laws that drive them further away from the real Savior. Read Romans 14:17 again and again.
See you soon.