During Christmas week I was listening to a discussion on the radio regarding the place of Santa Claus in Christmas. Was it good or bad, the talk show’s host wanted to know? As you can imagine, there were all sorts of opinions expressed by callers who thought the inclusion of Santa in Christmas was good, bad, and everywhere in between.
One man said he thought the problem with Santa Claus was that he grabbed too much attention. The focus of the holiday should be Christ; His birth, after all, is what the season celebrates. But so many people forget Christ and center their festivities on Santa Claus instead. Santa, the caller said, usurps the honor and attention that is due to Jesus.
With these comments fresh in my mind, I came across a timely article at MormonTimes.com: ‘Praise to the Man’ honors Joseph Smith. The article was about a new Mormon Tabernacle Choir CD scheduled to be released on Joseph Smith’s 203rd birthday (December 23, 2008). Titled “Praise to the Man,” the recording is a “special Joseph Smith tribute album.” MormonTimes.com explained that an advance copy of the CD had been presented to LDS President Thomas Monson. According to the article,
This is the 16th CD the choir has done since establishing its own recording label, noted Sheri L. Dew, president and CEO of Deseret Book, who made the presentation. “Since then we’ve sold around 2 million albums. But the choir has never done one more meaningful for the members of the church…”
President Monson praised the efforts of the choir for “utilizing their God-given skills. You never know how many hearts have been touched and lives have been changed,” he said.
…[President Monson] noted that he’s always appreciated the fact that Joseph Smith was born in the season in which we celebrate the birth of Christ. “I think very little happens by coincidence,” he said. And at this season, he’s happy that our thoughts can be drawn to Joseph Smith. “He gave us everything.”
As I read this I was reminded of an article I saw in the November 1st edition of the LDS Church News. This article talked about the “Christmastime events at the [LDS] Museum of Church History and Art in Salt Lake City.” In addition to noting the display of a “world-class collection of Polish Nativity scenes”, the article said:
To extend gratitude for Jesus Christ into the new year, the museum will observe the Dec. 23, 1805, birthday of the Prophet Joseph Smith, who helped restore a complete knowledge of Christ in this dispensation, with a celebration Dec. 23-Jan. 3.
Festivities will include story-telling, birthday treats, crafts and games, a theatre shop, and a discovery tour enabling children to explore artifacts throughout the museum pertaining to the Prophet’s life. (page 6)
I would like to ask all of you here at Mormon Coffee a question similar to that asked by the radio talk show host: What about the place given to Joseph Smith in Christmas? Do you think it’s good, bad, or otherwise? And why do you think so?
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Joseph Smith at Christmas time? I cannot see it. I have for many years taught my children about the true meaning of Christmas and about Jesus. I never once brought up Joseph Smith at that time. It was irrelavant. Jesus is the only one that we should be thinking about and praising at that time and all times. God bless all of you that have posted comments on this board and other boards along with the many sites that have shown me the way out of mormonism. I now am learning more and more about the Savior and forgetting the stories in the BOM and others which are all to often focused on and lead to nowhere.
Christmas is about Christ. Period.
“the choir has never done [a CD] more meaningful for the members of the church?” Huh? Never? Not once? All those Christmas recordings weren’t as meaningful as one dedicated to Joseph Smith?
And, seriously, a prophet of God said that Joseph Smith “gave us everything?”
And here, I thought that Christ had restored His church in these latter-days. I thought that Christ was at the head of the Church, too. Even D&C 20, gives “all glory” to Christ, “both now and forever.” God gave us everything, not Joseph Smith.
I think that Joseph Smith has no place in Christmas, anymore than Peter, James, and John, or Paul, or Moses, or Adam, or Abraham, or whomever. Jesus should be the center of Christmastime, and the center of our worship at any time.
If the many songs about Christ sung by the Tabernacle Choir aren’t as meaningful as a CD dedicated to Joseph Smith, something is seriously wrong somewhere.
Disclaimer: I was born into the church, BIC, served a mission, held (and hold) callings, and am an attend-every-week high priest. I give Joseph Smith all the credit he deserves for doing the good things he did. But it’s Jesus Christ’s church, and it’s the time we honor Jesus Christ for being born and coming to Earth, and I don’t see why He should have to share his days of honor with someone else.
Sharon,
It is apparent that you are grasping at straws again. Is this the best you can come up with?
What if your father was born on Dec 25? Would your celebrating your fathers birthday on Christmas be giving him too prominent of a place in Christmas?
How can she be “grasping at straws” when all she’s doing is quoting things from Mormon literature…I think the fact that “Joseph Smith gave us everything” was quoted by a Mormon prophet is enough to conclude that the Mormon claim to worship Christ is a front for a much uglier religion, and that Mormons in fact have no idea who the real Christ is.
poetchick,
As is quite common, you “hyper critics” get your quotes wrong. Apparently accuracy isn’t a concern for you.
Since very little of the actual exchange was provided by “Mormontimes” or the “Deseret News”, there is very little context to the pull quote. Of course “hyper critics” don’t care about context, they are just looking for any excuse to be critical.
No surprise!!!
So Monson can’t win! If he talks about Jesus during Christmas, Lindbloom would say what a disgrace he is to be promoting this False Mormon Christ. If he talks about Joseph Smith he is usurping the meaning of Christmas. What do you want him to say?
Our family has a Joseph Smith birthday party on the 23rd. I’m sure all of you would be appalled, despite the fact that the whole get-together draws us nearer to the Savior. I still say “Praise to the Man” for the slader he continues to face from a group that never even met the man.
I do NOT find the focus on Joe Smith during Christmas by the LDS Church to be surprising. This is essentially because JS truly is the focus of the Mormon Church. And Monson is correct, without JS there would be no LDS Church. “Praise to the Man” is an appropriate song for the LDS Church to be singing regularly.
When our family celebrates advent we do talk about the prophets of the Old Testament, but essentially the entire Bible points to Jesus Christ – you can see Jesus in the story of the ‘near’ sacrifice of Isaac – God HIMSELF provided the sacrifice with the lamb’s head caught in the thorn bush – which foreshadows God HIMSELF providing the true final sacrifice wearing a crown of thorns as He took our sins and paid the price on the cross. Isaiah has many well known prophecies pointing to the coming of Jesus which we cover during the advent/Christmas season. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that King David would have an ancestor eternally on the throne – Jesus is that eternal King! Which makes one wonder, how do you have an eternal King on the Throne if His Kingdom disappears into apostasy – kind of a big gap in his reign??
I do not see how Joseph Smith foreshadowed Christ – he just wouldn’t fit in our advent celebration. Focusing on Joe Smith seems to make people lift JS up, rather than Jesus.
Mo,
Joseph Smith does not foreshawdow the first coming of the Messiah but the second.
I quote from the Introduction of the BoM, last paragraph.
“Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, PREPARATORY TO THE SECOND COMING OF THE MESSIAH.”
So if your advent celebration includes anticipation of the return of the Messiah as well as His initial birth then Joseph Smith should be part of the festivities. He is a forerunner, preparator, for Jesus’ second coming, much like John the Baptist was for the first.
poetchick: the claim that the church is putting up a conspiratorial “front” of worshipping Christ simply discredits you. Such a claim shows little knowledge of our doctrine or culture. I too find that critics spend a great deal of time discussing things that are quite peripheral and petty. I agree this article is certainly “grasping at straws.”
DOF: thanks for the post(s) and quotes about the LDS church as it relates to the Kingdom of God. I’m currently explaining the difference between LDS and traditional orthodoxy to my son in law , who pretty much “gets it”, but your quote above will help me make some distinctions. As a former Roman Catholic, he understands, and rejects your churches false claims to being “the one true restored chuch”, and the claims of a particular man (other than Jesus Himself) to be above the rest. If all goes well, his daughter will be out ot the church by epiphany. Here’s hoping.
Interesting that this post generated all this heat: Sharon herself MADE NO PARTICULAR STATEMENT, PRO OR AGAINST JS, she just asked the questio( a leading question, I’ll grant that…..) Some of you guys need some more (spiked) egg nog.
ho,ho, holidays………Germit
PS to Mobaby: good point about the impossibility of a total apostasy IF in fact Christ’s Kingdom is eternal…..I’d never connected those particular dots before. Well said.
DOF,
I don’t see it. The Church knew about Jesus coming again before JS, didn’t we? I don’t see how his life of teaching, preaching, and practicing polygamy as an eternal commandment necessary for the “Celestial Kingdom” foreshadowed Christ’s return. The Bible says we don’t know when Christ will return – so JS could not predict with honesty when Jesus is coming back to rule and reign over his own. Was it necessary to know that the Garden of Eden is in Independence Missouri for Jesus return to be foreshadowed, or that a mighty warrior named Zelph once roamed the land (whose bones JS “found”)? God has spoken to his people in these last days through our mighty Prophet, King, and God – the Lord Jesus Christ – we have no need for any other unnecessary prophets – Jesus has provided us with everything we need for redemption and eternity with God the Father. He has become the sacrifice, and will return to rule and judge the earth. Joseph Smith will not be ruling over or sitting in judgment of anyone. You’re free to believe that JS is absolutely necessary for salvation, but I am not convinced that he added anything to the gospel – as a matter of fact he SUBTRACTED from the gospel the great truth of redemption by grace through faith with Jesus as our great high holy sacrifice and added a lot of unnecessary distractions (such as polygamy) and pointless temple works (which are slowly being edited away).
I heard an interview with Grant Palmer author of “An Insiders View of Mormon Origins” in which he bemoaned the fact that Jesus is not emphasized in the Mormon church. He was specifically referring to the rotation of teaching topics. So we have the upgrading of Joseph Smith and at the same time the down grading of Jesus. This is not surprising because aberrant and cultish groups do this. They also diminish the Bible and usurp God’s plan of salvation substituting a works oriented program and a lot of religiosity and a lot of false piety. Mormons don’t know Jesus. They don’t have a clue who He is. When we have the Mormon god being nothing but a more refined version of the Mormon himself, it’s no wonder that Jesus is diminished. Mormons worship a false god and acknowledge a false Jesus, and embrace a false prophet. There’s no salvation in this religion. Just a cult trying to mimick Christianity and doing it poorly.
Mo,
I have a big issue with double standards that is often promoted here. This is a good example. I use the John the Baptist/Joseph Smith parallel to exhibit my point.
Certainly the Jews knew about the coming of the Messiah before John the Baptist yet he was called to prepare the way. Knowledge of coming events by the people as a whole did not diminish John’s calling. It is no different than Joseph Smith. Just because the prophecy of the second coming is in place and common knowledge does not dictate whom the Lord can call to prepare the world for His return. Any problems with that?
Why was JS necessary? He would only be needed if something had been lost. So, obviously, restoration of truths (ie eternal marriage, place of the new jerusalem, etc.) would be expected if his claims are valid. What you are saying is that you don’t believe anything was lost?
If all that was needed was the words of Jesus then the scriptures would have ended with a direct quote from him. I would expect nothing past the book of John. That argument is weak and noone seems to be willing to respond to this.
What is more appropriate to say: that JS will sit in judgement or the original 12? Luke 22. Again, this reeks of an uneven playing field.
I don’t believe that the man JS is necessary for salvation anymore than I believe the man Paul is necessary. But “every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God” is necessary for our salvation. If JS or Paul were speaking the word of God, isn’t your salvation dependent on heeding?
I could just as easily argue that Paul subtracted from the Saviors command “to be ye therefore perfect” by using your defintion of grace. Did Paul change the Savior gospel by emphasizing grace and not preaching perfection? Again double standard.
Germit,
Who is claiming to be above the rest? JS may have made some interesting remarks at times, but I’m pretty sure we teach a doctrine of equality among men. Jesus is not even in the discussion since He is not “fallen man”.
Christ’s kingdom being eternal doesn’t mean that it is always present on the earth. In fact, a careful reading of the scriptures from the beginning shows periods of complete apostasy between dispensations. Long discussion for another post. The “one true church” is the Lord’s statement. If JS was a prophet then this is the Lord speaking not JS. Bring us back (as everything does) to the question of authenticity of the BoM. In my mind, this entire blog should be dedicated to this one ? alone. Everything else is a deversion. I can never prove the book is true (that is a revelation thing) but prove to me the book is false and I will repent immediately. I have never seen it. The book is true.
Falcon,
Why would Palmer bemoan that Jesus is not emphasized if, in fact, the Jesus preached from the Mormon pulpit is an imposter? Wouldn’t he rejoice that they just leave this “false” Jesus out of the picture and instead focus on “false” prophets? It’s all a smokescreen, rhetoric at it’s finest.
I hear more of Jesus in the Book of Mormon than in any volume of scripture. I’m not sure where he went to church, but that’s pretty much all I hear. Wouldn’t a true disciple want to hear ALL the words of Jesus? So why not rotate? If all you got was Peter, James and John, wouldn’t you protest that someone left Paul out of this?
The rest of your comments are vintage Falcon rhetoric. If I were to say you are a modern day Christian minmicking Christ and doing it poorly, would you take me seriously? If not, should I take yours any more to heart? Oft your comments lead me to place you personally in the “cult” corner you have placed the Mormons in.
Yeah, it’s all about Joseph Smith. It always has and always will be as much as our Mormon friends are in denial about it. I wish they would just get it over with and just pray to him. They might as well. They believe he helped Jesus in the creation of the world, that Joseph Smith will take part in the judgement seat of Christ, that Joseph Smith’s approval is necessary for admittance in the celesital kingdom and they sing hymnal songs to him. Oh, by the way, please don’t say the usual “we don’t believe that”. I’ve run out of bookshelves gathering the documentation.
If you’re a fundamentalist Mormon then you know the significance of Joseph Smith to the month of December. It’s all about Joseph Smith. I’ve watched too many interviews with former fundamentalist Mormons who say that December was only about Joseph Smith’s birthday.
Let’s take a look at the last two issues of the Ensign. In the December issue there is the spread on pages 40-43 entitled “I remember Joseph”. The January 2009 issue gets even better. It’s Joseph Smith on the cover. Page 1 shows him reading the plates on a table without the Urim and Thummim – not accurate and not true. The three witnesses and modern day apostles said it was translated by using a seer stone in a hat. Then we have the feature spread about Joseph Smith from pages 10-22, 28-29; The back cover shows Lucy Mack Smith reading the Bible to Joseph while modern day Mormons try to say that Joseph didn’t have a Bible when he was a kid. The back cover shows poor Joseph at Carthage Jail running to the window but he doesn’t have that pistol in his hand that he used to shoot three people in which two of them died. The implication that he was in Carthage Jail for absolutely no reason or fault of his own and that he and Hyrum were unarmed that day – not true on any account.
Maybe the timing of this post isn’t the greatest since I just finished watching the LDS’ DVD box set entitled “Church History” which is comprised of 3 DVD’s which are 8 hours in length. It is appalling, disgusting and deceitful in how the Mormon Church has blatantly doctored, polished, filtered and re-wrote their history in this DVD set. There are 29 individual videos on here. There are some decent ones (especially disc #3), but the majority are historically inaccurate.
The epitome of Joseph Smith worship is on disc #2, track #6. This totally creeped me out watching this. There is an elderly lady on here that looks like something out of a Stephen Spielberg movie. Her dark teeth and eyes are still creeping me out. Anyway, she opens up the door to her house and brings in all these little kids to eat her cookies. She then brings them into her living room where there is a picture of Joseph Smith on the wall. She tells the kids that her great-grandfather knew Joseph Smith. The little kids are sitting around the old lady awestruck with their eyes real big and their mouths open. The old lady restates the questions:
1. Did Joseph Smith eat like we do?
2. Was Joseph Smith really a man?
3. Did Joseph Smith ride a horse?
It goes on and on. The old lady then tells the children that her great-grandfather held Joseph Smith’s hands (the kids gasp). She tells the kids that her great-grandfather held the hands of her father and so forth on down the line to her. The kids now know that the old lady has held hands with someone that had touched Joseph Smith’s hands.
She asks the kids, “Would you like to hold the hands that touched Joseph Smith’s?” The kids nod in approval. One-by-one she holds the hands of each child and then tells them that now they have touched the hands with someone that had touched Joseph Smith’s hands. The children wipe tears from their eyes.
I have to be honest with you: I found this sickening, disturbing and spiritually disgusting. I pray that the Mormon people would see how wrong this is. The true God of the Bible is going to hold you accountable for this blasphemy. Gordon Hinckley said it best:
“I would like to say that this cause is either true or false. Either this is the kingdom of God, or it is a sham and a delusion. Either Joseph talked with the Father and the Son, or he did not. If he did not, WE ARE ENGAGED IN BLASPHEMY.” (in Conference Report, October 1961, page 116).
Joseph Smith’s didn’t talk with the Father and the Son and the Mormons are engaged in blasphemy not only on this point but on the points mentioned above. My salvation isn’t hanging on the unbiblical story of a 14 year-old farm boy and your’s shouldn’t be either.
Happy New Year,
Berean
Since Smith’s birthday is so close to Christmas, I can see why Mormons’ thoughts would be on him, especially since they believe he restored the ‘truth”. However, the language Monson uses when referring to Smith does give one serious pause. ‘He gave us everything’. Really? If they believe that God used Smith to restore the Church, shouldn’t they express that in such terms? For example, I have never heard anyone say “Paul gave us a good deal of the NT”, or “Moses gave us the 10 Commandments”. No, it is always “God spoke to us in the NT and used Paul as a vessel”, or “God gave us the 10 Commandments and used Moses to deliver them.” In Christian terms, the only time I have ever heard the phrase “He gave us everything” is when one is referring to Christ. I have heard this exact phrase countless times in hymns, in Christian conversations, in prayers uttered in Bible studies and in church. I have never heard this phrase used in reference to any person who was used by God, it always, always is used in conjunction with Jesus. I am sure that Monson meant God used Smith to give us everything, but I think it is inappropriate that he did not specify it in that way. No person has given us everything, only the person of Jesus Christ.
Defender of Faith,
I appreciate your posts- very level-headed. I think you will find this experience very frustrating. After discussing various LDS topics in depth and after explaining our doctrine and views in great detail, you will find critics here turn around in no time and make the same claims and statements that have been shown to be incorrect over and over. They know we do not believe what they claim. It does not appear to matter to them. It seems what does matter is “sound bites” and “spin.” This thread is a perfect example. As a result, I have been pretty quiet as of late. (and the lack of interesting, constructive topics).
There is actually a huge opportunity for our different faiths and cultures to learn about eachother and develop our own faith as well. It is unfortunate that this opportunity is so often neglected for cheap shots and intellectual spin to “win” an argument with worn-out “talking points.”
Each thread starts with an “article” which provides a negative “spin” of some LDS doctrinal trivia or history. I would love it if, here and there, a thread could start with a pro-LDS spin by a LDS. But I suppose we are visitors here. The conversation would be quite different if the same standards of argument were applied toward the non-LDS religious views here. But this is not seen generally from people like you because you do not believe in degrading, diminishing, or mocking their faith.
Keep the faith!
Awaiting an interesting thread!
fof
DOF: well, so what am I to believe, what your church CURRENTLY teaches about the equality of all men, or am I to believe the statements JS made about himself ?? Come to think of it, this is a question all current LDS have to settle for themselves as well, isn’t it ?? My guess is that you will find some way to harmonize BOTH in your thinking and worldview, that’s just what true believing Mormons have to do…..
As for Christ’s Kingdom, I’d never quite thot about it this way before, but I’m not sure if HIS (Christ’s ) Kingdom has any real relevance if it is NOT an earthly Kingdom….think about it, and if Jesus was NOT King down here for awhile, did we have a different King…..no King at all ???? I’d be interested in knowing how you fill in these gaps.
Berean: very good post, as per usual. Haven’t seen it yet, but the old lady creeps me out already, and to be fair, I’ve heard similar kinds of stories around some of the “Saints” or even “Popes”. Still weird, still creepy.
Berean: That’s really something with the lady whose hands have indirectly touched Smith. I can’t think of anything else to say except ‘Wow’. I know we get quite a few former LDS on here, and I would be really interested to hear what it was like growing up hearing so much of the focus being on Smith. I have a close friend who left the LDS Church and she has told me a few experiences, but I would be interested to hear more.
On another note, I had no idea about Smith having taken part in the Creation and also judging with Christ. Where can I find documentation for that? I’m not holding you to task, I just want to have all my i’s dotted if this kind of thing comes up with my LDS friends. I would love to have that info. under my belt, especially if the LDS missionaries come by again. Thanks!
DOF,
There’s a fundamental difference between you and I. I go after Mormonism not after individual Mormons, especially on this site. You’ve chosen to go after me personally. If you don’t like my personal style, don’t read my posts. I’m writing for those Mormons who come here on their journey out of the maze. You don’t know anything about me and yet you choose to judge me and are, by default, pushing your toes right up to the line of bearing false witness. It’s quite obvious that when people begin personal attacks, they’ve run out of arguments. I don’t think you’re aware of the fact that Grant Palmer is a Mormon. He’s one who is seeking after Jesus Christ and not Joseph Smith. My only hope is that Palmer is led by God’s Spirit out of Mormonism and that he has an encounter with the real Jesus. Mormons who follow after Joseph Smith have exchanged the God of the Bible, and the Christ who brings salvation, for a Mormon god that was an invention of Joseph Smith. The Mormon god does not exist and therefore cannot bring salvation. Joseph Smith’s invention is little more than a Free Mason lodge with a little Bible and 19th century evangelical Christianity mixed in to make it look legit. The fact that Mormons can’t see the deception that Smith wove is for Christians, unbelievable. That’s the difference between the Spirt of Christ and the spirit of the antichrist.
FOF: our theologies, cosmologies, and interpretations of everything Holy are poles apart….nevertheless I would quickly note that it gives me no pleasure whatsoever when the discussion gets mean, petty, vindictive, or religiously smug. There are times when I agree with my Christian friends 100% on content, and hardly at all on approach. Not to say that anyone made me the Voice to the mormons or anything, I can appreciate your concern for HELPFUL dialogue, but there will always be the tension of two views that do not, and never can get along.
G.K.Chesterton: Tolerance is the virtue of those without convictions.
God lead us all to a greater portion of Himself, thru His Son GERMIT
Megan,
I’ll be happy to help you out with that. Here are just a few:
“NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JOSEPH SMITH. No man can reject that testimony without accepting most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, page 189-190)
“If I can pass brother Joseph, I shall stand a good chance for passing Peter, Jesus, the Prophets, Moses, Abraham, and all back to Father Adam, and be pretty sure of receiving his approbation…If we can pass the sentinel Joseph the Prophet, we shall go into the celestial kingdom, and not a man can injure us. If he says, ‘God bless you, come along here’; if we will live so that Joseph will justify us, and say, ‘Here am I, brethren,’ we shall pass every sentinel.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, pp.271-272)
“If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is – Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them.” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 116).
“If all things are to be restored, and if the dispensation of the fullness of times is made up of, and is a uniting of, all dispensations, with their keys and powers, since the days of Adam, then those who held the keys of these various dispensations would have to confer them upon the head of one who stands at the head of the last dispensation, and the prophet Joseph Smith is that one.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.97)
“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are – I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation – the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there a supreme being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim – ‘Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!’ But it is true. I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now. Should not this thought comfort all people? They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever. It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption. You will be thankful, every one of you, that Joseph Smith, junior, was ordained to this great calling before the worlds were.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:282)
“Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, James, and John, Joseph Smith, and many other ‘noble and great’ ones played a part in the great creative enterprise.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 169)
“Christ, acting udner the direction of the Father, was and is the creator of all things. That he was aided in the creation of this earth by ‘many of the noble and great ‘ [Abraham 3:22, 24] spirit children of the Father is evident from Abraham’s writing…Michael or Adam was one of these, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, James and John, JOSEPH SMITH, and many other ‘noble and great’ ones played a part in the great creative enterprise” (Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, page 38)
Ok Berean,
So it’s not JUST JS that we need to pass when it comes to ‘sentinals’ or getting ‘permission’ to get to the gates of heaven, neitther was it JUST JS who assisted Jesus with the creation of the world, was it? Noah, Paul, Peter, John, and Adam, just to name a few were also mentioned, right? So we are not just focusing on JS or putting him up there above everyone else are we?
Ass either FoF or DoF said earlier we live by every word of God, whether they come from Paul, Peter or JS. If we do not live by these words then we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Shall we take a look at things – Christmas is just thee Christian replacement of a pagan festival. The LDS church teaches and many non-member sources corroborate that Jesus was actually born beginning of April. We celebrate andd we teach Christams and it’s importance to us – in fact in our ward’s Sunday Christmas service one of the speakers said that without Christmas there could have been no Easter, and vice versa. We do focus on Jesus as the reason for the season. We also remember His birth around April, but do not ‘celebrate’ it as we do on Christmas.
As far as JS is concerned except for last year which was an anniversary of sorts of JS birth I have heard no emphasis about his birth or anything more than a just remember his birhtday on the 23rd. I have a friend whose birthday is on Christmas as well as his older (by 8 yrs) sister. They see nothing wrong in celebrating both birthdays on Christmas as well as remembering Jesus’ birth. My friend and his parents are LDS, his sister is a member of another Christian church.
Ralph said: “Christmas is just the Christian replacement of a pagan festival”.
Well, Ralph, the LDS Church apparently didn’t have a problem participating in those pagan practices itself after looking at the extravagant Christmas decorations all over Temple Square. There were lots of deorated trees, toy soldiers, etc., all around. Your church wants the Christian label so bad, I guess now you can wear the “pagan” label too since the LDS Church wants to be like us and you think that it’s pagan.
Historically, there are a lot of facets regarding the Christmas story that are added on to with the thoughts of man. The Romans were the ones that moved the recognized day of Christ’s birth to the month of December from what I have read. Christ was actually born sometime in the summer months from what I have learned. December 25th is just the recognized day. For me, every day is Christmas and Easter. There isn’t a day that goes by that I am not mindful and thankful for not only Christ being born, but also rising from the dead at the resurrection.
Who can forget the elaborate celebration on December 23, 2005 at Temple Square on the 200th birthday of Joseph Smith? I watched it on BYU television back then and last week saw the DVD. Ralph, I wish you could see how this comes across to those outside the church – prophet worship. I was talking with some Mormon friends of mine back then about it and I made the point to them that Christians (non-Mormons) don’t have special celebrations for our past prophets. We don’t have special days or special recognition for Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Isaiah, Ezekial, and on and on down the line. We don’t sing hymnal songs to those prophets. They appear nowhere on the Christian “radar screen”. To give them any attention beyond what they have already done is unwarranted and if they were alive today they would be appauled if anyone in the faith did single them out for special mention in terms of celebrations today. Unfortunately, this special reverance for Joseph Smith is part of the Mormon culture and does not nor will not help the Mormon cause with its laborous attempts of trying to obtain the “Christian label”.
My grandfather’s birthday was December 24th. His birthday was recognized just like anyone else. However, it played no part with Chritmas. Growing up (and still goes on now), my family had a Jesus birthday party on the 25th. My mother would make a cake and it had Jesus’ name on it, the Christmas story was read, we shared our thoughts and we prayed together. We sang “Happy Birthday” to Jesus. The thought of introducing anyone else (Joseph Smith, Abraham, John or whoever) into that same scenario – bad news. I imagine we wouldn’t have gotten ice cream on our cake, not been able to open our presents and then for an added bonus we could daddy’s belt on our backside.
DOF,
No, I don’t believe anything was lost, but that’s not all I am saying. I am saying the work of Joseph Smith is not consistent with the Biblical prophets in pointing to Jesus Christ. There are elements from all of the prophets that point to the character, life, and purpose of Jesus Christ. Moses lifting up the snake on a branch that one must look upon to be healed, foreshadowed Christ being lifted up on a tree for our sins and one must put their trust in to be delivered. King David ruled over Israel as God’s chosen King, just as Jesus rules over His Church as God’s chosen King. Isaiah was led by God to write many prophecies concerning the messiah which came true – “a virgin shall be with child..”
I don’t see this is in Joseph Smith. His life work brought about a great distraction from the truth of Jesus. Salvation was convoluted with a lot of extraneous things such as polygamy, temple works, eternal progression, protective underwear, etc. Joseph Smith created a religion that takes away from the one true God, and focuses on himself as prophet, restorer, and judge and a new god, a small god, who is just an exalted man and just one god among many gods. JS did not worship the one true God, creator of everything and ruler over everything throughout all eternity past and future – besides Him there is no other god. Lost to Mormons was the great truth of salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ – trusting in his completed work on the cross for our salvation. (I am credited with Christ’s perfect obedience, He takes my sin and shame to the cross. Through Christ’s saving work for me I am able to dwell in heaven with God for all eternity. I cannot add to or subtract from Christ’s work – it is finished and completely able to save.) The entire OT sacrificial system points to the coming fulfillment of this system with God’s perfect sacrifice the Lord Jesus Christ. The LDS temple works serve no such purpose and are unknown to the writers of the Bible. (The Bible was very insistent there is only ONE true temple in Jerusalem – I still don’t understand how Mormons can justify their many temples all over the place and the temple supposedly built in America according to the Book of Mormon despite God’s clear command for one true temple in Jerusalem.)
It comes down to the evidence, and I don’t see the evidence that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. All the evidence to me points in the opposite direction, JS was a distraction, one who took away from the truth and added invented works, created a new fantasy “scriptural” writing about North America which borrowed heavily from the King James Bible of that time, and lived a life of questionable morality (marrying multiple women, women currently married to other men, all under the auspices of being directed by God to do so – this alone for a “prophet” is astounding). Moses had moral failings (murder), David had moral failings (adultery and murder), but they (or anyone else) have never claimed God directed them to do so. Mormons can depend on their internal experience that Joseph Smith is a prophet despite all evidence. But of course, people are free to reject Joseph Smith due to the great amount of evidence against him being a true prophet – even Mormons are free to examine the evidence and make this reasoned decision, they don’t need to depend on a feeling or spiritual experience to try and justify or rationalize away all the evidence against Joseph Smith. For after all, it is Joseph Smith on which the LDS Church stands or falls – his work and teachings are it’s foundation.
I don’t see anything that unusual if Mormons decide to worship Joseph Smith. Why would that be a big deal in Mormonism? Hasn’t the Mormon prophet progressed to being a Mormon god? Certainly, if Joseph Smith isn’t a Mormon god today, who among Mormon men can be one? So why not worship Joseph Smith? Perhaps the council of the gods that sent Jesus to our earth could have another meeting and give Joseph Smith dominion over this world and our solar system and allow themselves to progress to another planetary system. Joseph’s got like 33 wives out there in the Celestial Kingdom so I’m sure he and the goddesses are putting out vast numbers of spirit children. Let’s again remember the words of Orson Pratt; “in worshipping any one of these Gods, we worship the whole.” So declare a holiday and worship Joseph Smith because in Moromism, the Mormon Jesus is just another god like Joseph Smith.
When you Mormons who are reading here want to give up this polytheistic nonesense and meet the God of the universe and secure your salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, He’s ready to receive you. Where you’re sitting now, you’ve got as much chance of getting saved as someone claiming the gods Zeus, Apollo, Hermes and the fertility goddess Artemis. Mormons have a lot invested in their gods, just like the Ephesians did in the time of Paul. I suspect when faced with the Gospel of Jesus Christ which does not include Mormon gods, Mormons will react in the same way the Ephesians did: “And when they heard this and were filled with rage, they began crying out, saying ‘Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” The Mormon rage filled chant will be “Great is Joseph Smith.” Know this Mormon friends, there is no God but God. “You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock: I know not one” (Isaiah 44:8) “I am the Lord, and there is no other, apart from me there is no God…so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:5-6) “For this is what the Lord says-he who created the heavens, he is God…He says: I am the Lord, and there is no other…There is no God apart from me…..There is none but me….I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:18-22)
Ralph: so do we know how many “sentinels” I need to get permission from before I get into the pearly gates ?? any way to work out some kind of deal this side of the veil ?? I’m just planning ahead……you don’t think it’s the same group that helped at creation doing double duty as “bouncers at the heavenly gate” do you ?? Give me the staight story, this is one concert I don’t want to miss……….and here I thought Jesus had all the authority and power………well,………….sillly me.
GERMIT
Ralph,
The problem here is that neither Joseph Smith, Moses, Noah or anybody helped
Almighty God create the earth. The Mormon god may need the help of his spirit children in his construction efforts since he is not omnipresent and lives on Kolob. The God of the Bible doesn’t need ANYBODY to help him out in doing anything. Genesis 1:1 says, “God created…” – not the heretical slant by Joseph Smith in Abraham 4:1 of “Gods, organized and formed”. McConkie and the General Authorities today can define ‘nobel and great ones’ in their writings and church manuals as they please as much as their mental creativity will take them. It doesn’t make it true or Biblical. God revealed Himself very clearly in the record of the Bible and this man-made idea hatched by Joseph Smith and his followers doesn’t line up with what God has already said and should be rejected.
Please show me from the Bible this idea of “sentinels” that are needed to be passed by on my way to the kingdom of God. I need Joseph Smith’s approval to get into heaven? Please, let’s get serious. Your church wants the “Christian” label and you expectt that to fly? I’m anxiously waiting for that to make it to the LDS Newsroom the next time someone from your church goes to the microphone and begs the world to call the LDS Church “Christian”. I read the October conference address especially the talk on this subject of the title of being “Christian”. I didn’t see any mention of their defining “Christian” as needing Joseph Smith’s approval before entering into the presence of the Almighty.
God’s Word has told me that I have eternal life right now and that when I die I will immediately enter into His presence. Where Joseph Smith fits into that lies only in the imagination of JS and his pal, Brigham Young, who said it. Demonstrate to me the tokens, sentinels and Joseph Smith’s approval for admission into the kingdom FROM THE BIBLE and I’ll fly to Australia and let you baptize me. You know the drill…the usual challenge.
Ralph,
It appears that the common myth that Christmas is an attempt to co-opt pagan
holidays may be incorrect. The Roman Emperor Aurelian instituted the “Birth
of the Unconquered Sun”, celebrated first on 25 December 274. Research of
the “Chronicle” written by Hippolytus of Rome (170-236) indicates that
Christmas was celebrated three decades prior to this.
It also appears that the date 25 December was not chosen arbitrarily, but
following the Jewish tradition of “integral age”. This tradition says that a
prophet (presumably one who has passed the Deuteronomy 18:21-22 test (unlike
some others who will remain nameless)) dies on the same date that he is
conceived or born. The Western Church places Good Friday on March 25th the
Eastern Church uses April 6th. From those two fixed dates the rest is
simple math. It is fascinating that Mormons place the birth of Christ in
April, as this would be consistent with “integral age” tradition. Any
thoughts on this, I would love to know how your Church came up with the
April date?
Then you have John Chrysostom Patriarch of Constantinople (Death 407 A.D.)
who wrote that the Church celebrated December 25 from the early days, he
gave no date for the beginning of this practice. He claims this date is
biblical. His math goes like this. From Luke 1 Zechariah was serving in
the Temple when he was visited by the angel Gabriel announcing that his wife
Elizabeth would bear John the Baptist. Zechariah was in the 8th Class,
calculating from the destruction of the Temple Rabbinic tradition puts him
on duty Oct. 2-9 in 5 B.C. Also from Luke’s Gospel we know that Mary found
out about this in the 6th month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (around the same
time as her conception), and visited Elizabeth “with haste.” All of this
means that Mary’s conception may have occurred in March prior to her visit
to Elizabeth, giving the December date.
Looking at this from a different perspective, many Old School Presbyterians
to this day reject celebration of holy days such as Christmas as unbiblical.
In 1899 the Southern Presbyterian Church (PCUS) commenting on the
“regulative principle of Worship” wrote “There is no warrant in Scripture
for the observance of Christmas and Easter as holy days, rather the contrary
(see Gal 4:9-11; Col 2:16-21), and such observance is contrary to the
principles of the Reformed Faith, conducive to will worship, and not in
harmony with the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” This statement
was never repealed but became moot after reunification.
On another note my daughter’s birthday is very close to Christmas, and we do
whatever we can to celebrate the two separately.
Berean,
In the past you have show some good handle of the scriptures. I’m curious what you think of the Saviors comment in Luke 22:30
“That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
You may insist that JS is not a prophet but not on the criteria that no one will be judging you. You will at least have to pass by the original 12. No? That seems to be a NT Christian doctrine. Doesn’t that seem like a pretty clear statement?
All I can say about Genesis is God said “Let Us….” We can debate all day long about trying to squeeze the Trinity out of that but I think the scripture stands for itself.
Mo,
It’s hard to reply with so many comments. It would be nice to tackle one issue at a time. Seems like you did summarize though by saying “I don’t see the evidence”.
Although it is somewhat dangerous to look for the “evidence” and not rely on revelation I do think its worth examining. Let’s consider the evidence. Let’s separate into positive evidence versus negative evidence. Also whatever weapon is formed to shoot down one prophet should be free game for all.
I would also like to bring up the fact you cannot prove a negative. For example Berean says “JS didn’t see the Father and the Son”. It makes no sense to make that statement because he cannot prove it. If I did not directly witness a car accident I cannot say that someone else didn’t see what happened. I could just as easily say “Jesus did not rise from the tomb” or “Elijah did not bring fire from heaven” but that there is no reality that situation.
Let’s take one of your comments
JS “lived a life of questionable morality”. I would put this under a positive evidence since we know pretty much how he lived his life. You pointed out that other prophets have had their shortcomings and in doing so eliminate judging a prophet based on his behavior. By the way, Moses issued the extermination order of thousands of Midianites because God told him to do it. I would say that event alone would suffice to say that we can never judge a prophet based on our current code of morality. If you shoot JS
Mo, (first incomplete comment got loaded 1st)
It’s hard to reply with so many comments. It would be nice to tackle one issue at a time. Seems like you did summarize though by saying “I don’t see the evidence”.
Although it is somewhat dangerous to look for the “evidence” and not rely on revelation I do think its worth examining. Let’s consider the evidence. Let’s separate into positive evidence versus negative evidence. Also whatever weapon is formed to shoot down one prophet should be free game for all.
I would also like to bring up the fact you cannot prove a negative. For example Berean says “JS didn’t see the Father and the Son”. It makes no sense to make that statement because he cannot prove it. If I did not directly witness a car accident I cannot say that someone else didn’t see what happened. I could just as easily say “Jesus did not rise from the tomb” or “Elijah did not bring fire from heaven” but that there is no reality that situation.
Let’s take one of your comments
JS “lived a life of questionable morality”. I would put this under a positive evidence since we know pretty much how he lived his life. You pointed out that other prophets have had their shortcomings and in doing so eliminate judging a prophet based on his behavior. By the way, Moses issued the extermination order of thousands of Midianites because God told him to do it. I would say that event alone would suffice to say that we can never judge a prophet based on our current code of morality. If you shoot JS down because of polygamy (his behavior) then you must shoot Moses down for slaughtering a nation, despite the fact that both were commanded by God to do so.
I’ll stop there for now.
DOF,
I am responding to my own comment because I can’t respond to yours?
You missed my point in comparing Joseph Smith with the other prophets. Adultery. Unless God decided to do away with one of the ten commandments as a special assignment for Joseph Smith to marry women currently married to other men, then Joseph Smith was breaking one of the ten commandments. The BIG difference between what he did and what King David did is that Joseph Smith persuaded these women to marry him by claiming divine motives AND maintained that this act was directed and ordained by God!!! What a blasphemous thing. Polygamy aside, I cannot see God directing prophets to engage in holy adultery.
On the cleansing of the land which God directed the Israelites to execute when they entered the promised land – one, they didn’t carry through on it. Two, they suffered because they did not obey God. I believe the unbelieving people living in the promised land were wicked and evil and God was judging them. And God has used the unbelievers who lived around the Israelites to judge His own people, punishing them and sending them into exile. ( Was this too harsh? If you read about the judgment in the scriptures it was awful.) Although this judgment of eradicating the unbelieving people from the land seems harsh to us, I do not question God. God also judged Egypt when he delivered His people out of the land. God could have brought it about quickly and easily. The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to display God’s glory – seems pretty tough to take from a human vantage point, hardening someone’s heart so that judgment could be poured out on them? However, God’s people knew that God had delivered them and did bring glory to Himself through the hardness of Pharaoh’s heart. And once again God foreshadowed the messiah he would send with the passover anointing of blood on the door, each side and at the top – like Jesus’ hands nailed to the cross on each side and the crown of thorns at the top. We apply the blood of Jesus to our lives (like they did to their homes), and the judgment of God “passes over” us.
Well maybe there is more to the ‘Christmas scheduling’ than I have heard. But I have got my info/ideas from various sources about the pagan festival. Wikipedia is one of them and says that it goes back to at least 4th century. But what do I know? I do not have the time or luxury of doing too much research into these things as I have too much research to do for work (which I am behind on right now).
As far as the actual day/time/season, one of the ‘theories’ in the LDS church is that the actual date is 6th April because of the section in the D&C describing the restoration of the church on the 6th of April. Some members read this as literal. Other external sources I have seen/heard are the star that appeared at His birth could possibly have been a conjunction of a couple of planets which occurred around His birth (ie between 4 BC and 6 AD – I cannot remember the exact year they gave) at around 5 – 8th April. This was an external scientific source – ie not from an LDS member or group of members. Lastly is from the Bible. In Luke the shepherds were watching their flocks at night in the fields up in the hills. Night temperature in Jerusalem during December is 7 Celsius, up in the hills it is colder. I don’t think people would be out all night at those temperatures. I lived in Finland for 2 years and I know I would not stay out for long in temperatures like that. I could stand it for an hour or two tops but not all night. But as one Lutheran said to me while I was on my mission – “it could not have been December because there were lambs out there, and sheep only have lambs in spring.” His words, not mine. I cannot find any reference to lambs in the Bible at that time.
Berean,
Here is an interesting quote I thought you might enjoy.
Near Eastern archaeologist William Dever notes:
“A generation ago, when I was a graduate student, biblical scholars were nearly unanimous in thinking that monotheism had been predominant in ancient Israelite religion from the beginning—not just as an “ideal,” but as the reality. Today all that has changed. Virtually all mainstream scholars (and even a few conservatives) acknowledge that true monotheism emerged only in the period of the exile in Babylon in the 6th century b.c., as the canon of the Hebrew Bible was taking shape. . . .
I have suggested, along with most scholars, that the emergence of monotheism—of exclusive Yahwism—was largely a response to the tragic experience of the exile.”
William G. Dever, Did God Have a Wife? Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2005), 294–95, 297.
Hi Defender,
Luke 22:30 is a great text in how it fits right on down the line through the scriptures all the way to Revelation – smooth, nice flow. First, as always, is the context. Jesus is talking to the 12 disciples at the Last Supper. The phrase “may eat and drink at my table” seems rather conditional and the Lord said that fully knowing that one of the 12 present wasn’t going to be there in the end – Judas.
In Christianity, there are two judgements: the “bema” seat and the “great white throne” judgement. The bema seat is a judgement for rewards for what one did for the kingdom of God (2 Corinthians 5:10) while already being sealed by His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) because of one’s faith and belief in the Son (John 3:16, 18, 36) thereby granting the believer eternal life (John 6:47) because one’s works won’t gain him/her admittance (Ephesians 2:8-10). That is why Christians are all about works – not to gain eternal life, but out of gratitude for what the Savior has already done and indirectly being recognized for that service at the bema seat judgement. Your works won’t get you in the kingdom. You’ll be rewarded for those works AFTER you are already there. In the end, those crowns that we will receive based on what we did in service for the Lord here won’t matter. We are going to take them off and cast them at the thone at the feet of the only one deserving to wear one because if He hadn’t have taken on the form of man and died for our sins we wouldn’t be there anyway (Revelation 4:10). In all honesty, I don’t even think about the bema seat judgement or those rewards. What I do for the Lord is 100% gratitude because He paid a debt that I could never pay.
The “great white throne” judgement (Revelation 20:11-15) is the judgement for all non-believers since the beginning of time. This is mainly a formality in which God, the righteous Judge and Father, will give every soul that perished without faith in His Son their “day in court”. Each person will fully know why they stand condemned. They will bow their knee and confess Him the King of Kings and then I assume be promptly tossed into the lake of fire. I imagine some won’t have to be physically tossed, but will willing “take the dive” knowing their guilt and will be ashamed to stand in the presence of the Almighty. (How the Mormons square this text from Revelation 20:11-15 with D&C 76 is beyond me – another discussion for another time).
With that said, what does this have to do with Luke 22:30? The original 12 disciples/apostles are going to hold a special place in the kingdom of God…more so than those believers who will be rewarded exceedingly great for what they did for the Lord here. At my place of employment we call that having “strap”. This is blue-collar slang for having seniority. Who is the 12th disciple that will hold this slot since Judas lost it? Some think it will be Mathias. I tend to lean towards it being Paul, but I’ll find out when I get there. These guys are going to have so much “strap” that they are going to have their names in the foundations of the walls of the city (Revelation 21:14). Can you imagine that? Your name won’t be there…mine won’t either and neither will Joseph Smith’s!
Is Luke 22:30 a bema seat or great white throne judgement for the 12 tribes of Israel? To be honest, I don’t know. Maybe it could go either way or a combination of both. Will I have to pass by the original 12? Taking the verse as it says, it is directly saying the 12 tribes of Israel. I’m not from one of those tribes. I’m not Jewish. I know Mormons say they are from the tribe of Ephraim and I don’t agree with it (another discussion) so I guess Luke 22:30 has nothing to do with either of us since we are not Jews.
I won’t have to pass by any of the 12 to gain my entrance into the kingdom. I already have my “ticket” and it’s got Jesus Christ’s name on the envelope (marked on my soul). You either believe Acts 4:12 or you don’t. Joseph Smith plagiarized this verse quite a bit in the Book of Mormon so if you don’t like Acts 4:12 you can read the same thing in Mosiah 3:12; 4:8 and Alma 38:9.
Where does Joseph Smith fit into all this in light of the quotes I gave earlier regarding the Mormon “pickle” of needing Joseph Smith’s “head-nod” before gaining entrance into the kingdom of God? Joseph Smith won’t be judging the 12 tribes of Israel, his name won’t be on the foudation walls of the city and the Bible and the Book of Mormon say that salvation is under no other name except Christ. The words of the LDS General Authorities in the above stated quotes are false and are lies.
My salvation “ticket” isn’t beholding to Joseph Smith or any other prophet even if they are mentioned in the Bible. I sure am thankful for that. There is one prophet in the Old Testament I don’t think much of – Jonah. I think he was a whining, sniveling, wimpy putz for that stunt he pulled on the way to Nineveh and after his work was done. When I get to the kingdom I might tell him so, but I may just keep going and look for the others that I want to talk “shop” with – like Samson. But hold it! The Lord Jesus gave Jonah special mention in Matthew 12:39-41 so obviously He thought highly of him – so much for my opinion of Jonah. My point is this: I accept the account of Jonah and what he did for the Lord, but I sure don’t see any mention in scripture of having to gain his personal acceptance of me as a “sentinel” BEFORE I’m allowed in the kingdom.
Lastly, yes Genesis 1:26 is all about the Trinity. Verse 27 is all about the same thing and it says “his own image…God created he him” – SINGULAR – complete agreement with Deuteronomy 6:4 and all the way down the line again to Revelation. The challenge is still out there: show me the word “Gods” (as shown in Abraham chapters 4 & 5) anywhere in the Bible and I’ll become a Mormon. Anyway, we are off topic on this and can discuss it on another thread as warranted by the mods. I’ve been gone for three months and have only been back for two days and I don’t want to anger them this early on.
Berean
Defender,
The discussion of polytheism in Mormonism and monotheism in Christianity is off topic. However, I did enjoy the quote. I always find the quotes of secular skeptics to be amusing. I wonder what Dever, the famed archaeologist, would say to the Mormon archaeology problem that constantly nags the LDS Church today? Would he be a fan and a supporter of Mormonism and its Book of Mormon claims? When you get his answer or position on that let me know. Why do Mormons quote people as a reference that are in reality not helpful to their own cause? Just curious…
Defender,
Great quote. Of course, rather than adderss the issue, the detractors will either attack Dever (you know, the old shoot the messenger approach) and question his faith or something, or they will throw out a red herring, (you know, something unrelated).
Hey! it already happened.
Berean,
That is interesting but not really relevant to the discussion at hand.
To quote Tony Warren a reformed Christian.
“. . .the Bema seat is simply the raised seating of someone who is to judge.
“The problem is not really one of misunderstanding the Greek, it is an exegetical problem where some theologians are reading their own presuppositions ‘into’ the text. These people have formulated a doctrine which teaches that their is a judgment which is specifically to judge the value of the Christian’s service to the Lord, and so they attempt to make the word ‘Bema’ conform to fit their doctrine. While this certainly cannot be proven Biblically, many of these theologians (using secular testimony) have gone to great lengths to justify the belief, even though it contradicts the Bible text itself. They claim that this particular seat was only used to reward, and was never used to punish. However, these secular ideas are not only contrary to all other doctrines of scripture concerning God’s rewarding us for our work, but they are contradictory to the way the word [bema] itself is used in the scriptures. God’s Word does not lend itself in support of such an Biblically indefensible conclusion. In fact, God clearly illustrates just the opposite. For example, Pilate sat on the judgement seat [bema] when Jesus was being accused of wrong doing. Clearly this makes these theories about it’s purpose being for rewards, null and void.”
GB,
If the discussion regarding judgement and the disciples participating in it (Luke 22:30) with the certain aspects of it including a judgement of believers (bema judgement) is not “relevant to the discussion at hand”, then why are you quoting a source talking about the same subject? I would like for you to give me a quote from the First Presidency about the subject. The only reference I have on this is from McConkie in his “Doctrinal New Testament Commentary”. He’s saying the same thing I am except he leaves out the word “bema” and then gives LDS scripture that talks about rewards given to the believers. I gave out a lot of scripture and discussed this position in length. I see that you didn’t offer insights into those scripture passages, but only gave me a quote from somebody else.
The topic we were discussing is Joseph Smith and his prominence in the LDS Church’s unbalanced system of perceived “prophet worship”. I don’t see any place in the scriptures where Joseph Smith is warranted of any of it whether it be in holding a place in the judgements, giving approvals for entrance into heaven or having any place in the Christmas celebrations – which was the original topic.
Just a side note, my guess is that Mormons would find fault with how the Catholic church elevates and venerates Mary, Jesus’ mother, but at the same time Mormonism elevates and venerates Joseph Smith.
It still fascinates me how born again Christians can see through Joseph Smith in an instant, but Mormons can’t. In fact, it’s just the opposite. Mormons fall under a deluding spirit that provides them with good warm fuzzies and a lot of false piety and the sale is made. Mormons have to keep scrambling to make excuses for the obvious; that Joseph Smith was a cleaver hoaxer who used occult spiritism to seduce his followers into believing that he had received special revelation. A person operating under the Spirit of God sees Joseph Smith for the false prophet he is. Mormons however take Smith worship to the next level and sing praises to him. What an afront to God! The Mormons “my dog ate my homework” excuse for following and venerating Smith will do a fast fade and fall a part when they are face to face with the living God. It’s simple Mormon friends, you’ve chosen Joseph Smith over God. You can get yourselves right by first acknowledging who God is. He’s not just one of a pantheon of gods as He is made out to be in Mormon mythology. Reject Joseph Smith and accept the living God. Is this a no brainer or what? Nothing at stake here; just your immortal soul. Eternity is way to long to get this wrong.
Berean,
You ask the question why use someone’s work if they do not wholly support your position in their other works? It’s called research! I work as a reasearcher and we constantly have competitiors who do not agree with our work as their ideas about what is happening is different to ours. If we can prove our case beyond reproof then they change their minds, and vice versa. However, some of their work may correspond with our work so we reference that which has been proven rather than ‘re-invent the wheel’. In this case, a skeptic/non-believer is an archaeologist who is showing the opinion of the majority of archaeologists at this point in time. If what they are finding is true and it has been proven then regardless of what you think/believe, then it is true and you are wrong if you think otherwise. It does not matter whether he supports the rest of our claims about the BoM, what Defender was doing was using current archaeological ideas to show that they differ to your belief in the historicity of the Bible. This is what you are trying to say about us LDS, that we are interpreting the Bible incorrectly because we are doing it in opposition to ‘mainstream and historic Christianity’ so we are wrong.
Ralph,
Thanks for the pleasant response. I used to think that same thing that you did about the pagan roots of Christmas. Then I was pointed to some Roman Catholic books by a Baptist Elder. What a world we live in, a Baptist, a Catholic, a Presbyterian and a Mormon all talking about Roman Pagan religion. I am sure there is a punchline in this if we look hard.
I understand the time constraints, usually I am unable to post like I have been doing. I tore my ACL in a training accident and am laid up for a while after another surgery and some rehab I will have to slow my posting.
The Shepherd stuff I have heard before as well. High places in the desert can be cold in the winter.
Thanks again. Happy New Year
DOF,
I don’t need archeologists to inform me that ancient Israelites were not monotheists, all I have to do is read the Bible. They worshiped other gods, engaged in pagan practices, followed after idols, and were sent severe punishment from God – judgment (carried out by their pagan neighbors whose gods they followed after) and exile. Yes – ancient Israel failed to worship the one true god and followed after many gods and they were judged and punished. I am not surprised that archeology confirms this – it is confirming the Bible. Can we today expect anything other than judgment when we die if we follow after false gods, crafted in the image of man and created things, rather than the eternal self-existent, creator of all that exists, who sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ for our redemption?
And to Berean’s point, what does archeology say about the Book of Mormon?? – Ralph, you might want to do a little research into this… 🙂
Mo,
You said “one, they didn’t carry through on it.” Referring to entering the promised land and cleansing the land. I am referring to Moses and the Midianites in Numbers 31.
I suggest you reread. They slew all the males. So if I follow your line of thinking… Moses had the 10 commandments, in fact he gave them. Then God commands him to do just the opposite. So here Moses goes directly aganist a commandment he just gave AND claimed God told him to do it, yet you condemn JS for doing the exact same thing. If you were an atheist and didn’t believe in Moses, I would get it. How do you justify this?
FOF,
Thanks for the comment. Nice to give our testimony here and there.
DOF
Berean,
I suppose I liked the quote because I keep hearing this harping on polytheism and you quote Gen 1 to support your claims that we are preaching a false God. Even though Elohim (plural) is talking to someone else (Let Us). Since I cannot convince you, FROM THE BIBLE, which is your demand, that this a polytheistic God speaking then what am I to do? I suppose I am pulling at straws trying to show your interpretation of the scriptures is grounded in a flawed premise (ie the Trinity).
I also think it would be interesting for all (BEREAN, FALCON, AARON, SHARON, MEGAN, etc.) of what Judiaism thinks of Christianity. Why? The article from this Rabbi should suffice.
Reasons Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah
Rabbi Shraga Simmons
http://www.Aish.com
Among others
1. “anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
2. Vigin Birth “This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.”
3. “only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation — i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.”
4. GOD AS THREE? “In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry — one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress.”
Let me summarize the accusations aganist Jesus by Judiaism:
A. False prophet contradicting established scripture
B. Incoporating Pagan ideas into true religion
C. False revelation
D. Promoting Polytheism
If I were to summarize MRM blog against JS and the LDS these would be top 4, NO? Judiaism is to Christianity what Christianity is to Mormonism and vice versa. And what is that? Nothing more or less than rejecting those messengers sent from the Father.