This is a bit of silliness. Google is working on an indexing and infrastructure update it has named “Caffeine Update.” A forum discussion on the tool included this comment:
“So Google is developing an updated search tool called ‘Caffeine’
“I’m not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormon Church) but I do respect other religions. Since the Mormon religion disallows caffeine, please consider changing the name. It’s kind of like marketing Google Bacon to Jewish or Muslim folks, or Google Brisket to Hindus.”
I don’t know if the commenter was serious or if he/she meant this as a joke, but it certainly has people laughing. It seems that all — Mormons and non-Mormons alike — agree that the idea is utterly ridiculous.
A few follow-on comments to the plea for religious sensitivity make an effort to inform people about the Word of Wisdom (i.e., that it does not actually prohibit caffeine). One or two (found at Search Engine Roundtable) express appreciation for the thoughtfulness and respect shown by the original commenter. Most say that naming a search engine update “Caffeine” is about as inconsequential as it gets.
One Mormon, however, wrote the following:
“As a Mormon, I am also prohibited from using Java or javascript, as well as any WINE-based software. “
Not to worry. The Word of Wisdom says “every…fruit in the season thereof [is] to be used with prudence and thanksgiving” (D&C 89:11). For Latter-day Saints who want to keep their temple recommends, there is an alternative to Google. Mormons can now use Microsoft’s new search engine derived from cherries, “Bing”, with complete freedom.
Michael P- Thanks… we can handle my conversion story offline if you wish. To answer your question… very simply, yes. If God told me that the mormon church was wrong I would leave… absolutely, no doubt… because in my mine, what God says goes. Now, if I knew it was God speaking to me, I wouldn’t need to go ask a second opinion… I would just follow. Now, since he doesn’t do that, we use scriptures, prophets, etc. And that’s where the confusion comes in… too many people interpreting too many things in too many ways.
I’m saddened that you would require verification from another source to verify what God has told you. And even more saddened that Rick B would not believe at all. Very dishonest of him.
Enki,
Thanks for the questions.
If someone says “I’m a fundamental Christian” and in the next breath brags “I’m tired of my wife and kids, I have a girlfriend”, then that person is probably either lying about being a fundamental Christian, and/or has completely understood what the Bible means by “liberty”.
Like I said, God knows those that are His. The Bible says a few places and in a few ways that by their fruits, you know them. That doesn’t mean that Christians are perfect (except in God’s eyes).
However, having said that, if a person truly believes Jesus (the real one) and accepts His free gift of salvation, from that point on, the Holy Spirit will be working to bring that person out of their sins.
A “fundamental Christian” then, one who truly is, may still have some huge hang-ups that haven’t been dealt with yet. But look at them again later in their lives, and see if God hasn’t brought them to a place where they are no longer in these sins.
I have an ex-brother-in-law who once claimed Christ, but his life is a mess. Do I think that he was never saved? I think he was. But I think that God will allow him to continue on this path he is on until he finally sees that God’s way is the only good way. At that point, he will be in ripe condition for God to bring about His will in his life.
Does that make sense? I see a little sarcasm in what you wrote, and a hasty need to make a contrary judgment… but I am trying my best to tell you. I would imagine if we were able to discuss this long enough, I could finally be able to clearly write what I’m trying to say. lol
Your coworkers, in my opinion, were possibly 1)abusing their “liberty” in Christ, against Paul’s admonition 2) not understanding fundamental Christianity, 3) not truly born again, and/or 4) on a very immature Christian level.
I was still an alcoholic when I first came to Christ. My sin nature being deeply entrenched, it took 4 years for God to get rid of this for me.
But He did..
Enki,
An old friend of mine considers himself to be quite “worldly”, has his PhD and lots of book learning, etc. He made the comment to me once “how do we know that Christianity is true, and not any of the other religions, unless we try them all?”
While it’s a good point, there is no way to do it. How can one person, in their lifetime, get so involved as to completely understand each religion, and then live it out to see if it is correct?
You quote from and consult many sources, but have you ever really just dug into the Bible, putting all else aside, to know it from the inside out, and then given your life to it, so that you can learn from experience whether or not it is true?
That’s the part you’re missing… I think… you need to get off the fence and commit to finding a heart knowledge of YHWH, by accepting His free salvation and His Lordship over your life, and see where He takes your life after that…
When you do, you’ll know. Until then, you can read a lot, consult everyone, but how will you truly know?
Pooka, the trouble with your position is how do you know for sure God is speaking to you? Aren’t we told in the Bible that we will spirits testing us to decieve, and that Satan will appear as a sheep?
You speak as if you would offend God if you double checked him and didn’t trust him without thinking. While we are told to be like children in following him, we also see several examples people being uplifted for their desire to double check. In other words, there is evidence that clearly shows that God is not offended if we double check.
I think he’s more concerned with us finding the truth and standing up for it than he is about us blindly following a spirit. See, following like children can be taken as once we know it is God, we are to accept what he says without question. But first, we have to know it is God talking, right?
An analogy: as a parent, I don’t want my kids going off with anyone who says good things to them. Rather, I want them to be very careful in who they interact with. Just as my kids shouldn’t blindly interact with just anyone, nor should we blindly interact with just any spirit.
A post prior to this post was lost, but in that post I went into detail on other resources to check the spirits. The Bible, church leaders, books, concordances, commentaries, friends, family and on, with an assumption that you are in constant prayer. I said that we go first to the Bible, then to others, then back to the Bible. All we need is there, even if you don’t get it at first. Its there, and the Holy Spirit will reveal the answer to you if you use solid Biblical principles. We don’t need additional scripture, and we don’t need other people as an all powerful authority (refering to folks like Monson) to tell what’s there.
I understand your experiences seemed to miss something on those lines, and for that I am sorry. I implore you to consider what I have written, but don’t take my word for it…
Michael P-
My question was pretty simple, and you’ve read quite a bit into it. I asked if God himself came and spoke to you… not a spirit, not through scriptures, etc… so yes, if he was standing before me and pointed me in a certain direction… I would not say “one moment… let me check the bible.”
I agree that it’s all there… the Bible is an amazing set of scripture. I don’t think we NEED other folks like Monson… i believe we are blessed with those folks. We may not NEED other scripture, but we sure are BLESSED with those other scriptures. You see, God continues to work how he did thousands of years ago… through prophets. We’re blessed to have that.
But Pooka, how do you know it is God speaking to you telling you that the LDS is right? Was he standing there right in front of you? Or was it a voice in your head, or even your heart?
I may be reading a lot into your question, but the inevitable next step is to say that God told you so and so therefore you know your church is true.
Also, have you actually seen God? So how will you know its him rather than a demon in disguise (wolf in sheeps clothing)? Not to be overly pessimistic about it, but I still think my comments hold true.
Well, are you sure you don’t need the BoM since that is proof that Smith was a prophet? Are you sure you rely on the Bible for everything? That you think it is an amazing set of scripture is irrelevent. Only that you think it is not all scripture is relevant.
That you don’t see that this additional “scripture” fails to coincide with what is in the Bible brings us back to the question of testing.
It is also interesting that some more mature LDS state that the existene of prophets is necessary to disseminate the truth accurately and uphold the instructions Christ gave to Peter about the keys. Without such authority, a church cannot be true according to them, and really, from what I understand, LDS faith.
So, I am not sure that LDS think it is a simple matter of being blessed by it all, I think LDS do believe it necessary.
In the end, though, maybe I did go a step further than you intended, but in a discussion like this and the nature of LDS faith, my comments are within the bounds of the question.
BTW, if you wish, my email is [email protected].
Michael P-
Let me pull some of these words out of my mouth that were so gently put in.
If it were Him… that’s all I’m saying. Let’s say you verified it.. however you verify it… and it’s Him… that’s all I’m asking.
In regards to my conversion… yes, I do believe the spirit spoke to me and helped me to understand the true teachings in the Bible and from the prophets. Head, heart, soul… yes, I believe the spirit spoke to me, in a way that was far more profound than I had ever experienced before (as a “Biblical, traditional, whatever Christian).
No, I have not seen God. I see him in his creations, but I have not seen him.
The BofM is the word of God. Is it essential for our salvation, NO. Does it teach the ways to salvation, yes. Like the Bible, yes. I believe they coincide beautifully… your interpretation and understanding of the two does not coincide.
The prophet is a necessary tool in disseminating truth, however, he is not the key to our salvation. He may hold Priesthood powers that enable us to participate in ordinances that are essential for our salvation, but he is not.
Do you believe that you must be baptized to enter the kingdom of God? Just trying to figure out what kind of christian you are… one that believes in baptism (in the water) or just baptism by the spirit…
Enki,
You can point out people like your co-workers for example saying, they claimed to be believers but did not live like it.
It appears even if you claim you read the Bible, you never really understood it.
The Bible tells us that not every one that says, Lord Lord is saved. The Bible tells us that if a person calls himself a brother, but does not live like it we are not call them a brother.
It says also to correct those who are in error. Regardless at the time if you were a believer or not, if you knew the Bible and knew they were in the wrong, it was your Job to call them on it. Did you? I’m guessing no you did not.
Paul spoke in the Bible about a guy living with his fathers mother, Paul said kick him out of the Church, We are to confront and rebuke these people that live like that and lie.
One problem with the Church today is, many Believers do not want to confront those that name the Name of Christ but are living in sin. To many pastors today refuse to use the word Sin and mention Hell.
Many believers only teach the warm fuzzy, bunny Jesus. They forget the Jesus that made a whip of Cords and rebuked even His own. Even people like pooki are liars, yet if you call them out on it, then people get made, God forbid you speak the truth and offend someone with the truth, and take a stand for the Gospel.
Look at pooki, He asks me a question, I answer it, he does not like my answer and judges me. Yet he goes on as many LDS do and say, we cannot judge others, and since he says to me, I ask questions but dont want to hear the reply’s since I want a certain outcome for an answer, but he does the same exact thing.
I told him up front when he got here he would be exposed as a liar and he has been. He did not like my truthful response that I supported from Scripture. He blows off my answer but does not refute the scriptures I gave to support my answer, so he exposed himself as a liar. Rick b
I love being called names on this respectful website. I think some of our Evangelical friends are a bit emotional and dramatic.
Looks like someone has had some buttons pushed.
Rick B- It’s just not worth trying to reason with you. You’re so far passed feeling, that even if God himself spoke to you, you said you wouldn’t believe. Any conversation we have will be pointless, so I’ll just avoid it… no “blow off”, no “liar”, no “mad(e)”, no “offend”, just “avoid”… you’re confrontational.
We’ll pray for you in this dark hour of your life 🙂
Michael P- I will email you with my conversion story. You seem genuine in most of your posts.
no pooky,
you dont even look into the scriptures I posted, you refuse because you know the truth is you cannot stand up to the truth. Rick b
RickB,
Of course you’d agree with Shelli.
Now as far as your statement about someone on their death bed and repenting – it all depends on what you mean by repenting as to whether I agree with you there. If the person knew the truth and did not repent until they were at death’s door then they are not saved. If they did not know the truth all their life but heard it and accepted it fully while on their death bed then yes, they could be saved depending on how sincere their conversion was at that time. All that needs to be done then is their temple work. So they didn’t do any work, did they? Someone else did it.
Now for the final point, which is why I wanted the question answered about living and dead faith. You believe that once one decides to believe they are saved. From this they will hopefully do good works because they are saved. But hen again works are an option anyway – so it doesn’t matter if they don’t live a good life – they are already saved.
We LDS believe slightly differently. We believe that once one gains faith they will then try to live the life that Jesus wants them to live and do what He wants them to do – ie John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” It is through this faith (and the influence of the Holy Ghost that is given to us because of our faith) that we can ‘endure to the end’ (ie our death; Matt 10:22; Matt 24:13; Mark 13:13; James 1:12; 2 Tim 4:7-9) by living a good life and following Jesus commands. Then on the day of judgment our faith will be judged by our life and the fruit/works it produced. Then if we are found with true faith we are saved and accepted into Heavenly Father’s presence.
That is the difference – when we are saved. So you believe that a dead faith can save you, while we believe that a living faith can save us.
Ralph,
I know you wont agree, but thats ok, If Hitler asked Jesus into his heart before he died, then he will enter heaven. But on the other Hand if mother tersa never professed Jesus as lord and saviour, then all her works will not let her enter heaven. Rick b
RickB,
If you have been reading what I have written then you will see that I agree with what you have written about Hitler and Mother Teresa.
If someone accepts the truth fully on their death bed without having prior proper contact with/knowledge of the truth, then yes they can be saved. But if they knew the truth earlier in life, just thought that they would live a life of debauchery and then repent on their death bed (ie procrastinating their repentance), then no I don’t believe that they can be saved because they denied the full truth by choice until their death.
Then if someone does good works all their life – in fact if someone lived a perfect life according to God – but they did not believe in Jesus, then they cannot be saved because God has decreed that first and foremost in salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. We do agree there.
What I am saying we don’t agree on is the timing of salvation. We (LDS) teach that salvation comes on the day of judgment, where as you teach it comes as soon as one professes a belief in Jesus. That is why the LDS leadership impress upon the congregation that we need to do ‘works’. The congregation are already believers, they just need to be reminded that besides belief they need to follow up with the fruits of faith which are good works. We cannot sit back and do nothing or whatever we want – we still need to live as Jesus, the focus of our faith, wants us to live. We need to exemplify His life in ours. We need to endure to the end, not just pay lip-service.
Ralph,
The Bible says:
Galatians 2:16-21:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Salvation comes at the point of giving up one’s own “life” (this does not mean physical death) for the life God wants to give us “in Christ”. It is by that faith in Christ that we are pronounced clean (justified).
The Bible says also that after being saved, it is “faith in Christ”, our intimacy with Him, that leads us to be better and better, not our own trying. I think that’s in Corinthians? I have to go to bed… I’ll let someone help me out with that.
It’s good to get into Bible verses, but it is of the utmost importance to understand the Bible as a whole before using a few here and there 🙂
Ralph, I guess only after Works believing people die, and God says your works are an insult will you believe, sadly it will be to late.
Adam and Eve, after the fell Hid from God, They covered them sin by works of their hands, Fig leaves. God looked upon them and said thats not good enough. God had to sacrifice and kill to shed blood to cover Adam and eve.
When Abraham was told by God to take his only son and sacrifice him, that was a picture of God and his only son, But then the son says to his dad, where is the sacrifice, Notice how his dad replied, he said (GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF a lamb). He was saying God is that lamb. The Bible is clear on that point.
Read Jonah, the entire city was so evil Jonah wanted them dead, they simply repented and did no works, God spared them, Jonah was mad.
Read in the Book of revelation where God is speaking to the 7 Churches, God said to all but one of them, I KNOW YOUR WORKS, But you are dead or dying. Great God even tells them your doing works and I am aware of them, but your works are worthless. Their are also more examples in the OT of God showing grace or saying it is by his hand and not our works.
Read about Moses and the passover, All Jews who were not under the blood died, but all God hating Pagan, false god worshiping Egyptians who were under the blood were saved, thats grace. It’s also an example of Jesus coming to Die, He was that spotless Lamb that needed to be slain. Rick b
Setfree,
Your answer sounds much like an LDS reply. For example they challenge people to read the BOM and pray about it to see if it is true, and if possible live some of the principles if you don’t find any objections.
I said before that Mormons realistically don’t expect members to immediately live ‘perfection’, not from converts, possibly not even from lifelong members. I haven’t attended in over 20 years, but I found this webpage, and started thinking about it again. I think for the first time I can objectively review the LDS faith minus the kind automatic ‘its true because its true’ sort of thinking that members often have when they are raised LDS.
Amazingly enough I thought of the ‘do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law’ came from the webpage “jesus is lord”. It seems like this person is perhaps a little too knowledgeable about other religions and the occult, and too quick to cast things in a bad light. The LDS faith always tried to see the good in all people if possible, although you can read some remarks by various leaders about the apostasy. When they remark about that its about purposely ignoring what is true.
So perhaps this tolerance for peoples understanding is what is meant by, “for its by grace we are saved after all we can do”. You must make an effort to live some principles, but that is not what saves you.
Enki,
It is difficult to understand, I know.
But the truth is, that when you are truly “born again”, your life begins to change in ways that you may not even notice, and then one day, you look back and you say “Wow, when did I become a Jesus freak?!”
The reason I know the Bible is true (besides the evidence) is because the events in my life, since being ‘saved’, have worked together to bring me closer and closer to God/Jesus. He has worked the sins that had me in prison, out of my life, and has brought me to a place where I want to shout His name out and praise Him from the rooftops.
I never wanted to be a missionary/evangelist. I just wanted to quit being so miserable.
But here I am.
My whole life has changed.
A man who knows a lot more about the religions of the world told me that true Christianity is the only religion with a beautiful Savior and a message of profound hope.
I’m sticking with YHWH and the Bible, because every time I look again, it’s still true. My life keeps getting more and more blessed by my God, my knowledge and learning of Him, and my peace and rest from guilt, fear, and doubt.
You may be right, it may sound ‘typical’. But I hope you continue on here on Mormon Coffee to become convinced of this beauty that is happening to the other Christians here as well.
In Him…
RickB,
No, I did not call anyone on anything. I did what I could NOT to talk about religion, politics or pushing amway at work. It was officially the policy of the company NOT to allow discussions about that, certainly not to advance any particular religion pro or con. That was perhaps the most abused policy at the workplace.
I pretty much guessed that they didn’t know much about religion of any type, but where just saying they were christian to fit in, as this town is so over the top culturally fundementalist christian. I was asking setfree about his point about liberty, and I did a mental double take….maybe they weren’t hypocritical, maybe that is how they function within their faith.
I thought maybe I didn’t understand something, certainly there is a lot I don’t understand about fundementalist christianity or the fundementalist jesus. Its posible they don’t understand their faith, but culturally that appears to be the thing to do, is say that you are a christian when in town. Someone at the workplace asked me about my religious affliation, I absolutely refused to answer the question. As far as I recall I was the only person to do this.
God is clear in His word. Using God’s word is what we are supposed to use. It is an offensive weapon.
Eph 6:17 “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
Hbr 4:12 “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Faith is the cornerstone Christianity. Rick already gave you a whole section of scripture.
Hbr 11:6 “But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Why do you think God doesn’t want us to use His word?