I read an article about repentance in the August 2009 Ensign magazine. “Mending Quilts, Mending Lives” illustrates the idea of repentance in a story about a damaged quilt.
While making a quilt, one of the quilters accidentally put a hole in the fabric when she carelessly handled a pair of scissors. The author wrote,
“We were all upset and knew the quilt was ruined. I remember my grandmother telling us not to worry because with iron-on tape and some careful ‘finagling’ she would be able to make the hole almost invisible. Sure enough, she fixed it, and although a patch now covered the unsightly hole, we had to look closely to find it” (page 16).
As the story unfolded, 37 years later the author of the Ensign article decided to use the quilt in a Young Women’s meeting to teach about life and repentance. When she looked for the patch that had repaired the quilt, she could not find it. She wrote,
“Then I was reminded of the words in Doctrine and Covenants 58:42: ‘Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.’ I knew what I needed to share with the young women… Just as I had been unable to find the patch in the quilt, so it is with our lives–if we truly repent, it can be as if a sin had not been committed and even the Lord will remember it no more” (page 17).
As I read this, it made me think a bit about the Mormon perspective and teaching on repentance. The words that follow the Doctrine and Covenants passage that the author quoted (D&C 58:43) explains what it is (in Mormonism) to “truly repent.”
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins–behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”
The LDS pamphlet “Repentance Brings Forgiveness” clarifies the Mormon position on this:
“Abandonment of Sin…The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again.”
Because, if sin is not permanently abandoned, the former sins return:
“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God” (Doctrine and Covenants 82:7).
It has been taught that,
“We also have to forsake the sin and never to repeat it not even in our minds. …In order to remain forgiven we must never commit the sin again” (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, pp. 35-36).
And,
“Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held
accountable for their former sins” (Gospel Principles, 1997, page 253).
So if the quilt in the Ensign story represented a real life, it would not have one patched tear in the fabric, but hundreds — maybe thousands. There would be patches upon patches upon patches. Indeed, there might be more patches than quilt!
And herein lies the problem with Mormonism’s impossible promises of forgiveness and cleansing. In real life, relying on what Mormonism says God requires for “true repentance,” it can never be. The frequency and depth of our sin is more than can ever be patched and repaired.
The Bible presents God’s forgiveness this way:
“He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:10-12).
God does not patch us up and send us on our way to see how well we’ll do. Instead, this is what He does for us:
“[I]f anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).
God does not merely repair our sin-torn souls. He reweaves the fabric of our lives, replacing the beat up, stained and battered cloth with a beautiful new quilt of His own design.
Many LDS differ on the thought I am about to post, So Since LDS differ and I cannot get a straight answer than can be backed with either Scripture or a quote from a prophet stating what the truth is, how can I be sure I am saved in LDS thought.
Many MM’s have told me, I cannot be saved unless I enter the temple, and we know whats required to enter the temple. I have also been told, if MM’s come to my door and I agree with them on the spot and go to church with them, then I still cannot enter the temple for at least a year.
So I could die in that year and not be saved, Not according to Jesus.
Then for years I had long hair, down to the middle of my back, I even shaved it into a mohawk. I had many MM’s tell me as long as I had long Hair or a mohawk, even if I converted to mormonism, as long as I had long hair/mohawk I would not be able to climg the ladder or ranks as it were. I could never be a stake president, School teacher or anything.
Funny How the Bible does not teach this. When David was chosen to be King, God said, Man looks at the outward appearance, But God looks at the heart.
I have 3 tattoos, one is Romans 2:11, it says God does not show favoritism. So I do not need to wear a suit and tie, or be a Billy graham, or any of that stuff, I can simply be me, a former street punk that hated the world, Now I can preach the gospel, have 3 tattoos love Mixed Martial arts have long hair or mohawk and still be saved and be used by God.
But under the bondage of LDS this will never happen or so I am told. Rick b
Hey Rick, thanks for sharing that. We type to and hear from the computer screen… it’s nice to have a little visual help now and then. I wouldn’t have pictured you with mohawk and tattoos. lol
Ralph,
It seems like a lot of times when I have given you a really good question, you quit responding. Maybe this is true of you to me. If so, just remind me. I’d like to hold you to some questions that I’ve asked, and have it be fair on both sides. Is that alright?
Setfree,
I no longer have a mohawk, I shaved my head because it was so hot, I am turning 40 in a few months and it was just getting to hard to take care of, I’m thinking of growing it back in a small on, 1-2 inchs of hair.
Plus my tattoos cannot be seen unless I wear a muscle shirt. 1 is a picture of Jesus, or what we think he looked like, I sometimes tell people its the zig-zag man. If I knew then what I know know I would have never gotten it.
I say that because it really is not Jesus, it’s white guy version.
my 2nd one is Romans 2:11
my third one was my own creation, A face with the Eyes and mouth sewn shut like the guys dead, then below it in big letters it says, CHOKE U OUT.
I put that on their because I love the Choke hold or strangle hold and did Judo and Ju-Jitsu for about 10 years off and on. Hope that helps. Rick b
RickB,
Thanks for reminding me about your teachings that we only need to believe in Jesus to be saved. I guess according to the Bible’s teachings even the devils are saved (James 2:19).
I have answered your question in the space allotted, so please re-read what I have written as an introduction to the rest. The Bible does not teach against any of the points 1-5, does it (see above for evidence)? As I said above the temple is only for those who are truely faithful to enter. Can you please show me your faith WITHOUT works (James 2:18)? I will show my faith by my works, and this is why we need to have the interview before entering the temple – to determine faihtfulness.
Now part of our faith is that we believe that God wants us to go through the temple to receive certain ordinances and to make certain covenants. This is still showing our faith by our works.
I have answered you questions about someone dying before they have a chance to do anything many times. Now either you have forgotten the answer, not read the answer or you are lying that we LDS have not answered the question. Anyone who does not have the opportunity in this life will not lose their chance to gain the CK. If God determines from their heart that they would have received the truth and attained the ordinances while on this earth IF they had the chance, then they will be allowed into the CK. All of their ordinances will be performed for them by proxy – hence the temple. So if you were baptised into the LDS church and died 2 months after, you can still achieve salvation in the CK.
MichaelP,
The OT temple and the one in Jerusalem during Jesus earthly life was run by the Aaronic PH and had a totally different function to today’s temples. This is why only the high priest was allowed to pass through the veil. This was fulfilled when Jesus died. Today’s temples are run by the M/PH. Now anyone can go to God through the veil if they are faithful enough (ie gain a temple recommend).
Setfree,
I answer questions when I have an answer. If I do not know an answer, because of limits I leave the question alone. In saying that, there were a few questions you asked that required a personal response. I do not want to give too personal a response for a number of reasons – I do not want it to be ascribed as ‘church doctrine’ if it is my opinion; I do not want something personal and sacred and close to my heart to be ridiculed by the hecklers on this site. And yes, it has happened in the past to others which is why I am not giving too personal answers. If you want, I have written my email address above somewhere, email me and we can have a discussion off line.
RickB,
If I was the bishop when you were dressed like that I would have no problem with you officiating in the priesthood. You may not attain Bishop or Stake President (that is up to higher authorities), but any ward position is open. My only stipulation is that you dress respectably and groom properly in order to enter the presence of deity. I know someone in my stake who was a surfy when he joined. His best clothing was a tank, cut-offs and thongs. He passed and blessed the sacrament every Sunday dressed like this until he decided to get a shirt, tie and suit. But that was his decision to buy those clothes, no one forced him.
But that’s my thoughts, other leaders have other opinions. All I can say is that the calling goes to whom God wants there, not because of looks but because that is what God wants.
Ralph, that seems a bit of moving backwards, huh? If everyone has access, then it is then only reserved for those who are “faithful” enough then not everyone can access it.
How are the functions different? Why are they different? What is added? Taken away? Do you have Biblical support for these changes?
MichaelP,
I don’t know if there is any Biblical support on most of this, but there is some.
We teach that Adam had the true gospel/religion/faith (From now on I will use religion), albeit he had to perform sacrifices. This religion had the M/PH, and ‘continued’ up until the Israelites left Egypt in the Exodus. We also teach that most other religions/faiths are born from this but are contaminated with human ideas. When the Isrealites showed that they were contaminated by the Egyptian culture and religion, God instituted a lesser priesthood and law to run that PH. This was the Aaronic and Levitical PH. The temple and tabernacle were then run by the A/PH priests, of which one was chosen to be the main/chief/high priest. So the Israelite temple and tabernacle were pretty much restricted to performing sacrifices as there was no M/PH available to perform the other ordinances. I am not sure if temple sealings were able to be performed during this time. Also, no proxy work for the dead was performed because Jesus had not yet been resurrected – this work all hinged around His atonement.
When we come to Jerusalem in Jesus’ day, we find an apostate version of the true religion had by the Israelites, so the temple had pretty much lost its meaning. Jesus brought back the M/PH and gave the authority to use it to His followers. To begin with this was the Apostles. They did not have time to build temples as they were hunted out. So there may not have been much work done by them in the way of temple work. But the religion was now under the auspices of the M/PH again and that is the authority that now runs our temple.
As far as a ‘step-back’ it is not. All have the choice to become faithful to the true gospel and then go to the temple, but not all want to chose this. So it comes down to faith.
Ralph, You have yet to explain in detail how Jesus was wrong when he said Believe only, and the ONLY WORK is to believe. You also have yet to explain how Paul was wrong by saying the same thing.
Pointing out verse like Works verses faith proves nothing. I could argue that my Works are Love, if you want to call that a work, that was what Jesus said.
You also have yet to show me how the 6 points Spencer stated are listed in the Bible AS REQUIREMENTS TO BE SAVED.
Then you never told me are you keeping the WOW to letter, if not your not faithful and then if not why not. Stop throwing out verses taken out of context. If you going to quote a verse, at least explain why and how it proves your point of view. Rick b
Ralph,
I’d like to know the Biblical references to the story, starting with Adam having to sacrifice. Even though you say there may not be much, I’d like to see what you do have.
Thanks.
RickB,
I am not arguing with you about believing in Jesus, I am agreeing that that is what the Bible says. I am also pointing out to you that because of this the Bible is teaching that the devils are saved too as they believe in Jesus (James 2:19).
If you can show to me that you love someone without doing anything (ie works) then I think I could believe you if you said you loved them. Could you do that? If you say ‘well I wont kill them, that’s not doing anything’, that still is not showing love it just shows you can control your urge to kill or your hatred against that person.
We are saved by our faith in Jesus. Faith involves ‘works’ (James 2:20) otherwise it is a dead faith – and I think a dead faith will not save. Why do we do these works? If we truly have faith in Jesus and are converted to Him then we will want to live as He has asked us to live. We will want to follow His commandments. But how will anyone know that we had faith on the day of judgment? How will our faith be judged? It will be judged by the life we lived, how we exemplified our Saviour, how we followed His commandments – in other words our works/deeds/acts. We are told often in the Bible we will be judged and rewarded according to our faith AND works – because our faith will be judged by our works. As you all keep saying an outward sign of an inward thing. Yes God can read our hearts, but to give lip-service and do the opposite to what He wants will not save. For example homosexualism – will saying one has faith in Jesus but going and living in a homosexual life-style mean that you are saved because you profess a faith in Jesus? Will professing a faith in Jesus but going out an living a life of debauchery mean that you are saved? The NT teaches plainly against these things doesn’t it? So yes, those 6 points are requirements to be saved as they show our faith in Him (James 2:18) and show that we wish to follow Him. But these works are to come from our faith in Him.
Ralph, Works cannot save us. Jesus said that on the day of Judgment many will say, Lord Lord, did I not cast out demons or perform Miracles or do all these various works in YOUR NAME. They will be told, I never knew you. So works cannot save.
The Demons believe, but they do not believe unto salvation. If works could save, then why did paul say, we are saved by Grace, NOT BY WORKS.
Your cursed if your not keeping the entire law. How can anyone know if they keep the entire law? You admitted you dont fully keep the WoW so your not keeping the entire law. How do we know when enough works is enough?
If works save, then it so sad for people dying on their death bed, at least according to LDS, But not us Christians.
Christians do good works because we GET TO and WANT TO, We do not do them because WE HAVE TO. Works cannot save as the scriptures I gave you point out.
Also on the 6 points, You simply cannot show me from Scripture that doing those 6 things is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. You can find them taught in various ways in the Bible, but Never did Jesus or the OT prophets or the NT apostles ever say, TO BE SAVED YOU MUST DO THESE 6 THINGS.
RickB,
Where does Jesus say in the scriptures anything about belief unto salvation? He just says believe. So how do you know the devils don’t believe in Jesus when the Bible plainly states they do? Why then are they not saved? They know who Jesus is better than you do, they believe in Him, how can you say that you are saved while they aren’t?
Eph 2:8-9, is that talking about living faith or dead faith (James 2:17, 20, 26)? I agree with these verses, we are saved by grace through living faith, and not of works alone (ie without faith). It is our faith that enables us to do the ‘works’ that Jesus and God want us to do.
Or do you subscribe to Martin Luther – “No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” (http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm); “Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ] even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders.” (Martin Luther, letter to Melanchton, Aug. 1, 1521). This is essentially saying you have a free pass to do what ever you want once you believe.
Finally one question you have not answered, how is our faith going to be judged? Why does the Bible say we will be judged by and rewarded for our works (Rev 20:12-13; 1 Peter 1:17; Matt 25:31-46; and the list can go on)? Our faith will ultimately be judged through our works. That is why works are essential to our salvation because it shows our faith. But without faith our works will condemn us not save us.
Lastly, I never said in any of my posts that I do not live the WoW properly. Where did you get that idea from? I never answered that question because I do not answer to you, I answer to God.
Ralph, I’m heading out so I will reply more later, but first on this,
I dont remember saying to you that you do not live out the WoW fully, I asked you IF YOU DO, And if you do not why not. I suspect you dont because like I said, I posted on the Fairlds board and many LDS their were honest in saying they did not adhere to it fully, only the parts they wanted to.
Do you really do this?
cont,
Do you really follow it exactly or do you pick and choose parts of it. If you want to say, I only answer to God about it, thats fine, but still how can LDS tell me I cannot be saved unless I follow it, but you guys dont?
Ralph, when you keep quoting about Demons believing, Just because you say I believe does not mean your a believer unto salvation. You clearly either do not read your Bible, or you choose what to believe while ignoring the rest.
The Demons are not saved, How do I know, the Scripture tells me so.
The Demons said to Jesus
Why would the Demons Ask Jesus if He came to torment them? Why would Jesus say, that Hell was prepared for the Devil and His Angels.
I dont want to have to spoon feed you here, But read About the Angles that left their abode and are not tormented in the Book Of Jude. Or how they are cast into hell in the Gospels and in Genesis it speaks of them being put out of Heaven into hell. Jesus told people your from your Father the devil, How can we all be Gods Children if God himself said, your Father is the devil? The Bible is clear People and Angels are going to hell for ever.
Jesus said, Not everyone that says, Lord, Lord, will enter Heaven, the Demons could cry, Lord Lord, but that does not make them saved. The demons believe because they Saw God when God created them, they were with Him in heaven until they were booted out.
Then they were on the earth tormenting people as the Bible tells us, That was why Jesus had to cast out Demons from People, they were tormenting people. More later, I am guessing I am close to my 6 replies for the day. Rick b
RickB,
You wrote “You admitted you dont fully keep the WoW so your not keeping the entire law.” when addressing me in another post above. Like I said, I have not answered this question at all. If other members do not fully keep it then that is their choice and problem, it does not prove the church true or false.
Now as far as the demons are concerned, you have given me proof that they are not saved and that they were kicked out of heaven, but you still have not answered my question about why they are not saved if they believe in Jesus. Just saying ‘they don’t believe unto salvation’ is not an answer. Why don’t they believe unto salvation as opposed to your belief? What is the difference between you and the demons?
If you want to use Matt 7:21-23 as proof against works then you are condemning the apostles and Jesus’ followers who prophesied, cast out devils and did many wonderous works throughout the NT. What Jesus is speaking about here are those who do these things without proper authority for example Acts 19:13-20.
But lets look at other teachings from Jesus.
The 10 virgins (Matt 25:1-13) – It is discussing the true believers (Kingdom of Heaven) in Jesus (ie in your books the Christians EXCLUDING the LDS; in LDS books the LDS church). Only half of them make it to the party. Why? Because the other half were not prepared enough, not that they didn’t believe but that they were not prepared. How can we become prepared and have enough oil to wait for Jesus?
Then there is the parable about the talents (again Kingdom of Heaven) (Matt 25:14-30). One servant received 5, another 2 and the last 1. The servants who received 5 and 2 went out and worked with the talents making more. The one who received 1 did nothing. He still believed in his Master, he even told the Master exactly what the Master does. What happened? The one with the 1 talent was thrown into hell (Matt 25:30) – because he DID NOTHING (ie no works) with what God gave to him.
So from these 2 parables we see that those who do not have ‘works’ do not get to heaven despite their belief in Jesus. However, and I have said this before, the works come from faith in Jesus. All of these parables teach this – first faith then works. This is the premise to the 4th article of faith, the First Principle of the Gospel is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then from that faith we will do the rest – repent, get baptised, receive the Holy Ghost.
And as I keep saying, living faith has works (James 2:17, 20, 26) and only living faith can save. It is only through living faith that we can be saved. BUT without faith our works will do nothing towards our salvation. It is our works that show our faith and it is by our works that our faith will be judged (see last post for Biblical references).
Ralph, I did not say if LDS do not keep the WoW then that proves the church is false. I said If you guys are not keeping it, then why put that bondage upon us to keep the entire law. Sounds like the Pharisees in the Bible, Put bondage upon the people but do not live as they teach.
You said I have not given you proof that the Demons are not saved if they claim to believe in Jesus. Yes I have, but you ignore it. You tell me, How can the Demons be saved, if Jesus said that Hell was created for them? Why would God send saved beings to hell?
Then you said,
I never used Acts as an example, You brought that one up, then the verse in Matthew does not apply to Jesus or the Apostles, notice it says, NOT ALL WHO SAY LORD, LORD, WILL BE SAVED. It points out that some will but not all will.
I know you wont agree but the 10 virgins is not speaking of works, Do a word study, Oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The 5 Foolish were not filled with the Holy Spirit. You seem to have avoided the verse where Paul said, were saved BY GRACE , NOT OF WORKS. did Paul Lie, was He simply forgetting something? Why would he say that if it were not true.
What about the verse that says our works are as filthy rags, Or Paul telling the Jailer Believe and be saved, yet Paul forgets all the works we must do. You quote from LDS scriptures, But if they are false then quoting from Fiction wont help. Rick b
RickB,
You still have not answered the question – what is the difference between you and the demons, if you and they believe in Jesus why are you saved and they aren’t?
You are right, I did bring up the example in Acts to show you that the refernce in Matthew that you gave applies only to those who use Jesus’ name but without authority. But the way you were using it in one of your previous posts, it sounded like you were saying it included all who did works in Jesus’ name.
All 10 of the virgins brought their lamps with oil in them, so the foolish ones did have oil. They just did not bring some spare oil with them. The verse that says this is Matt 25:8 – their lamps had ‘gone out’. How could they go out if they were not lit and had oil in the first place? So if the oil means the Holy Spirit, then these ‘lost’ the Spirit – and from the rest of the parable we can then assume that they lost their state of being saved. What about the talents and the servants who worked to gain more and received a reward and the one who did nothing and lost everything? Remember, that parable is talking about the true believers only.
Paul said we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH and not of works (Eph 2:8-9), that is very different to how you just quoted it. And as I asked in my last post, is that living faith (ie WITH works) or dead faith (ie WITHOUT works) as James 2:17; 20; 26 states? So no Paul is not lying, you are mis-quoting. Also, as I have asked before, can you show me your faith WITHOUT works?
And yes I agree, our works are as filthy rags. If you read what I have said above, WITHOUT faith, any thing we do will not save us. Our works come from our faith.
Yes, I quoted from LDS scripture – more specifically the Bible. So are you saying that the Bible is fiction?
Ralph, This will be my last reply on this, I am saying that for two reason.
1. We seem to have gotten to the point where we simply do not agree, and unlike LDS who believe God changes, Hence Doctrine that contradicts it’s self with added revelation.
2. The topic of works has been popping up under the topic of WoW topic and more people are replying. So some things I said to you I will reply to Pooka with. But here is my reply to your above questions.
Ralph said
Ralph, I have answered your question, maybe you dont like the answer, but I answered it. First off, Just because you say I believe does not make it true. The Bible tells us that the demons can come as angles of light to device, the Bible tells us their are false teachers, prophets and gospels. If your believing in a false teacher, or a demon that comes in the form of an angel of light and you sincerely believe he is really from God, does this mean when you die God will say, well you believed lies and false prophets, but since you were sincerely believing they were from Me, then I guess I will allow you into heaven. It simply does not work that way.
Also, Again, if the demons are saved, why did they ask not to be tormented before the time? They know their not saved. As far as works go, You really are insulting God to say His death was not enough and works are needed. The Bible tells us not to let our right hand know what are left hand is doing. Jesus spoke of some of the religious leaders blowing trumpets and announcing their good deeds before men, They were called Hypocrites. So if Jesus labeled people Hypocrites for doing their “works” before men, then that tells me were supposed to keep quite about them. Then if people on their death bed or in jail for life cannot do good works then they cannot be saved.
Rick b
Cont,
If you read the OT, The High priests would sacrifice animals and shed blood for the remission of Sins, No works were needed on our part, we simply came with our blood sacrifice. Look back at Cain and Able, God was pleased with Able but not Cain, Why? Because Able’s gift was a gift of Sacrifice with Blood AND Cain’s was a gift of Works by his hands. Rick b
Ralph, I think I understand the one part that Rick B may not have touched on yet.
Demons don’t get bodies. They’re not part of the human family. They absolutely know about God, but refused Him already, and as such, and because they are angels and not human, there is no redemption for them. Does that help?
I don’t know what Ralph’s motives for his question is, but we’re not talking about a mere belief, but putting faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. I not only believe in Jesus Christ, but I trust Him to be Who He says He is and to do what He says He can do–and that is lead me to eternal life. I choose to live a life of obedience as my faith response. This is Salvation 101, and should be fundamental for all followers of our LORD Jesus Christ.
Peace…