What follows is a noteworthy article from Tabletalk magazine, January 2009:
For the Love of Slavery?
by John P. Sartelle
“Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in — who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery” (Gal 2:4).
She was eighty-six and her body was failing but her mind was clear. The doctor had said she would not last the month. I was on my way out of town for two days and stopped by her home. After I read some verses from the Scriptures she asked a question that still rings in my ears after thirty-seven years: “John, do you think I have done enough to be saved?” I spoke to her of God’s grace to sinners and quoted passages about Christ dying for the ungodly. Then I prayed with her and left. She died the next day. She had heard the gospel preached every Sunday for over a half century. Yet, hours away from her death she was still striving to do enough to earn her salvation.
In Galatians 2:4 Paul speaks of some illegitimates in the church who were trying to add the performance of men to the gospel of faith alone in Christ alone. He spoke of this as a return to slavery. And that is exactly what salvation through the Law or through religious ritual is: slavery. I have lived in that slave camp. In the morning I arose to the endless demands of the Law that I could not satisfy. Oh, I worked hard to erect a façade that looked good to the world around me. But at the end of each day, I knew that under my polished veneer were the dark, indelible stains of failure. Thus, I went to bed each evening shackled to the Law. Therein was a great irony: The very Law that chained me was condemning me! No matter how hard I worked at obedience, the Law cracked the whip with the constant mantra, “More, more…not enough…not enough.”
Then came Jesus. He told me to trust in Him to do what I could not do — faith alone in Christ alone. That was the key He put into the lock that held my chains. Freedom! Freedom from laws God made and freedom from laws man had invented. Freedom from constant accusation and guilt; freedom from God’s judgment. Was God’s law invalid? No. But His law could not save me.
If this freedom is so wonderful, then why was Paul forced to warn the Galatians not to return to the prison of endless efforts of self justification? Who would want to return to that slavery? I think the answer is deeper than merely pointing to some counterfeit teachers with a flawed theology. There is a constant temptation, even in authentic Christians, to return to the self-praise of self-sufficiency. Even as we grow in Christ and our lives look different to the world around us, it is easy to take credit for our holiness. That is only a step away from attributing justifying merit to our service to Christ.
It is not easy to live with charity. Javert, the law officer in Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables, could not live with the grace he had received from Jean Valjean. He thought of himself as being morally superior to Valjean. He would rather die than live with such a humiliating grace. Gospel self-denial brings us to the admission of being helpless in ourselves. Complete dependence on God’s grace gives glory only to Him. It leaves no credit to self. The remnant of sin in the Christian still desires the exaltation of self over the exaltation of Christ. That is what drives us back to the prison and chains of the Law.
We could conclude by pointing to the joy of freedom as our motivation for holding fast to grace. The prison of the Law ultimately holds only the despair of slavery. However, it is not the joy, in and of itself, that will keep us from returning to prison. The gospel of grace was not invented and accomplished by man. The gospel of grace is the plan and revelation of God. Our salvation is not dependent on fervor no matter how sincere. Our salvation is dependent on dogma and the truth of that dogma.
Paul went to Jerusalem with Titus, a Gentile disciple of Christ, whom some insisted had to be circumcised before he could be a true Christian. He had complete faith in the truth of the grace he had been teaching. He did not go there in doubt of his message. Neither did he go there doubting the message of Peter, James, and John. He knew they had received the same truth that he had received. He was bringing the heretical teaching of self-justification through the Law and ritual before the court of God’s revelation. What a picture! Peter, James, John, and Paul were in one room with other representatives from the church. Peter, James, John, and Paul standing shoulder to shoulder proclaiming God’s revealed doctrine of faith alone by grace alone. Titus went home uncircumcised!
Do you rest all your life on faith alone in Christ alone? If you do, you know that you will never hear from the grace of Calvary: “More, more…not enough, not enough.”
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Reprinted from Tabletalk, January 2009, volume 33, number 1. Used by permission of Ligonier Ministries, home of Renewing Your Mind.
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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Sharon, this is an absolutely perfect time for “An Atheist Meets God”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68
I don’t know why Mormons have such trouble getting this concept. We can’t save ourselves. Nothing we can do will even get us close to God’s standard which is sinless perfection. There is something in the mind of some people that will not allow them to accept God’s gift, unconditionally. I don’t know if they wrongly assume that when a person accepts God’s gift of eternal life through faith in Christ that we have license to sin willfully and as much as they want?
I don’t believe that because I’ve received Jesus’ sacrifice through faith and applied it to my sin that I can now live a life of total debauchery. Maybe my circle of acquaintances is small, but in my thirty-seven years as a born again Christian, I have yet to run into anyone who believed that they could come to Christ in faith and continue to willfully sin. I contend that you can’t know God personally and continue a life of willful sin. The whole point of recognizing our sinful condition and turning to Christ in faith is that we will be walking in a newness of life.
John Wesley struggled with knowledge and assurance of his salvation. He ran into some Moravians on-board a ship who, despite a raging storm, were at absolute peace regarding their spiritual destination should they perish.
“The settlers, a band of Moravians, had remained calm during a potentially deadly sea squall, which greatly impressed the Wesleys. Seeking to have the same depth of spiritual assurance, the brothers sought out Peter Boehler, who became their spiritual tutor. Boehler’s message was simple: a proper faith will result in a clear sense of assurance of salvation. One cannot have one without the other.” (Christian History; Issue 69).
Mormons are stuck in a system whereby they believe that through their efforts at sinless perfection, they will transform themselves into gods. Right out of the chute they are lost for eternity. This “I can perfect myself into becoming a god” is an affront to the Person and Being of God.
Work, Worship, and Grace, Mormons are stuck because being perfect is futile? a most useless discussion and does not necessitate further debate?
Wait, the Atonement of Jesus Christ is the central act of all human history. It is the core of the plan of salvation. Without the infinite Atonement, all mankind would be irretrievably lost.
James and even Paul, as well as living prophets, make it clear that faith/grace and human agency/actions/works are actually inseparable. We are indebted to God for our very lives. Keeping his commandments is a duty and when done He Blesses us. Hence there is always this indebtedness to Him. Joseph Smith did in fact teach that our own efforts could never do anything to “earn salvation”.
“Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8)
President Young taught:
“The best man that ever lived on this earth only just made out to save himself through the grace of God. The best woman that ever lived on the earth has only made her escape from this world to a better one, with a full assurance of enjoying the first resurrection. It requires all the atonement of Christ, the mercy of the Father, the pity of angels and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to be with us always, and then to do the very best we possibly can, to get rid of this sin within us, so that we may escape from this world into the celestial kingdom”.
Regards, Richard.
“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all….for by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified….let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water…” (see Hebrews 10:10-22)
The real topic of the article, to me, was the concept of “assurance”. Is assurance an emotion or does assurance produce an emotion. None-the-less I would say that when someone is “assured” they feel better emotionally. It’s a safe, contented kind of feeling that everything is OK. It drives out fear and disperses anxiety.
The question is, is there such a thing as false assurance. That is, someone has all of the associated feelings/emotions but the state of mental being is the result of someone believing something is true when it is not.
We are all familiar with the “placebo” effect whereby someone who is sick is given a sugar pill and believing it will cure their ills they start acting, looking and feeling better. It wasn’t the sugar pill, obviously, it was the belief that the sugar pill could make them better. There are all kinds of stories dealing with mass hysteria. One took place in a hospital when workers believing that a patient had a certain disease began falling over in droves. At a Friday night football game, the folks running the concessions mistakenly thought that bacteria in the line dispensing soft drinks had made someone sick. An announcement to that effect was made over the PA system and suddenly people were throwing-up all over the place. As it turned out, the soft drink line was not contaminated. The thought that it was, caused all of the people to become sick.
Mormons tell us with confidence that they “know” Joseph Smith et.al. are true and this belief causes them good feelings; to the point that they swear that God has revealed this truth. What they have is a spiritual placebo.
Boehler, the tutor to the Wesley’s, had a simple message: a proper faith will result in a clear sense of assurance of salvation. One cannot have one without the other. This type of faith would be accompanied by love, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. A person would also become free from fear, doubt, and sin. This was a “heart-centered” experience and was necessary for one to become a “true” Christian.
This “Moravian” experience first came to Charles. On May 21, 1738 he powerfully sensed Christ’s forgiving presence. He described it this way: “I felt a strange palpitation of heart.” Then three days later John experienced his assurance.
He went to a meeting in Aldersgate Street. What prompted his experience was a reading from a Pietist classic: Martin Luther’s preface to the Book of Romans. In the Pietist tradition John said, “I felt my heart strangely warmed.”
It is no surprise that these two Moravian-inspired experiences would be expressed in terms of heart imagery. Especially noteworthy is the fact that both brothers found the sensation “strange.” John’s account of his experience became the normative pattern for many of his followers.
The brothers disagreed on the subject of the “almost Christian”. John said that the “almost Christian” (defined as one who struggles with the faith) was no Christian at all because he had not yet experienced spiritual assurance. Charles said that the almost Christian should be thought of as having the “faith of a servant”.
John struggled with this question for many years, eventually modifying his opinion to allow “exempt cases”-persons who had not experienced assurance but who were surely real Christians. In his later years, he even allowed that one should take Scripture seriously when it says that a person who simply “fears God and works righteousness” is accepted by him.
Having a “feeling” of assurance is great, but it has no bearing on the reality of being saved. Nor does it signal that someone has heard directly from God.
Salvation is faith plus nothing. Coming to an understanding of who God is and what He has done for us through His Son Jesus Christ and accepting (Christ’s) sacrifice through faith seals the deal. My daughter has often come to me with the concern that she isn’t experiencing the feelings reported by Christian friends. My response is always “so what?” I then review with her the basics of salvation and point out that coming to Christ in faith has nothing to do with accompanying emotions. I explain to her how people can become “feelings” junkies and their faith and commitment to God a roller coaster ride.
The night before He died Jesus went through an excruciating time and what is described in the Scriptures is not a reflection of joy and peace. My reading tells me Jesus experienced intense anxiety. While He hung dying on the Cross He felt alone and totally rejected and forsaken.
God’s love and forgiveness though His Son Jesus Christ is offered to all who humbly and sincerely come to Him in faith. It makes me feel terrible, the price that had to be paid in order for me to be granted eternal life. At the same time I rejoice in the knowledge that God loved me so much that He was willing to do for me what I am unable to do for myself.
Falcon, why not share the following with your daughter?
Luke 24: 32
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Rom. 10: 10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Kgs. 19: 11-13
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
Richard 🙂
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason *God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie*, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (asteriks, the only form of emphasis available *sorry*)
I’ve been reading this blog for sometime now and yesterday after reading some comments in regards to the great apostacy I decided to check my Bible’s index and see what verses it pointed me to. The above section is where one of the places it sent me and I have to be honest it didn’t read in favor of the LDS understanding of lost and restored gospel. I pray that God’s truth will be heard by someone reading these verses. Test all things and remember how deceitful and wicked the heart of man is (Mark 7:20-22) I thank God for paying my debt while I was a still a sinner and holding steadfast with me in my wayward years.
The mother of John and Charles Wesley, Susanna Wesley, was not quite sure what to make of her sons’ (Charles and John) heart-warming experiences. She wrote to Charles, “I think you are fallen into an odd way of thinking. You say that till within a few months you had no spiritual life, nor any justifying faith. Now this is as if a man should affirm he was not alive in his infancy, because when an infant he did not know he was alive. All, then, that I can gather from your letter is that till a little while ago you were not so well satisfied of your being a Christian as you are now.”
The Wesley’s mother understood something that her sons didn’t, and that is that if someone has the faith to be saved, they’re saved despite how they might “feel” about it. In-other-words having the assurance of salvation is not necessary in order to be saved. Emotions can be manipulated and very clever men (and women) know how to create a very attractive ambiance that leads people to feel things and conclude they have “heard” from God.
Mormons are among those who having “felt” something, wrongly conclude that they have heard from God and now “know” something that leads them to assurance that that which they “know” is true. The problem is that their “knowing” is based on a feeling that they suppose is from God but doesn’t line-up with God’s revealed Word, the Bible.
So when Mormons tell people to pray, read the BoM to see if its true, and if you get a good feeling, a burning in the bosom, then that’s God telling you it’s true”. My response is, “Tell me who your god is that’s going to provide this ‘feeling’ for me. When I’m told that he is a former man that progressed to becoming a god (like millions of other gods)and that he lives on a planet somewhere near the star Kolob with his goddess wife and that they procreate spirit children and are adored and worshiped by their minions on the planets which they (mom and dad god) rule, I tell them that it’s not necessary for me to read the BoM. It’s false!
So what would someone, submitting to the spirit of Mormonism, expect to “feel”? Giving one’s self over to a deceitful lying spirit will result in feelings produced by this spirit further resulting in an assurance that the deceitful spirit’s god, is “God”. Seduction by the spirit of the anti-Christ is something that believers were warned about not only by the apostles but also by Jesus Himself.
Joseph Smith gave very clear indications of what spirit he was about. From his early days as an accomplished occultist he revealed his character and spiritual influence. He boasted that all churches were wrong and that to follow him would bring true enlightenment. Pretty standard false prophet approach. Mormons past and present seek after the spirit that influenced Joseph Smith and rejoice when they see spirits of dead people roaming about their temples.
Now Mormons gain “assurance” from these spook sightings and rejoice that they “know” they have the truth based on these “spiritual” experiences. What fools these people are to reject God for a false prophet and a false god that while providing them with burning bosoms leads them away from the living God that could provide real assurance of eternal life.
The assurance of salvation, in order to be true assurance, must be based on the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Claiming a feeling of assurance won’t get someone saved regardless of the sincerity or intensity of their feelings.
In Acts 19:1-7 we see an example of Paul bringing the Gospel to some people who had an incomplete understanding of the Gospel that could bring them the assurance of salvation through Jesus Christ. Paul asks “some disciples”, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, ‘
“No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul went onto explain the significance of John’s baptism and then baptized them in the name of Jesus. The account goes on to tell us that “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
It was necessary for these “disciples” to get things right concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Once they had a clear understanding of the God Paul served and of His Christ, they believed and received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the gifts God granted them. This than was true assurance based on a true gospel based on the true and living God.
Prophets can appear with a gospel that claims to provide eternal life. Many of these false prophets operating under the influence of a false spirit can provide false signs and wonders that can deceive unsuspecting people. Associated feelings “confirm” the false gospel and these folks are lost for eternity.
God clearly reveals Himself in His Word the Bible. Anything that runs contrary to God’s Word that was revealed to His apostles and prophets is a false gospel with a false assurance. Paul admonished the Galatians for leaving the Gospel he preached for another gospel. One that sought to inslave them to a works-righteousness form of salvation; a false gospel with a false assurance.
Interesting that Evangelicals know so little about the burning in the bosom. Quote Falcon, “What fools these people are to reject God for a false prophet and a false god that while providing them with burning bosoms leads them away from the living God that could provide real assurance of eternal life.”
Discernment??
Satan can make things appear to be so true that the only way we can know they are false is to ask our Father in Heaven. We will have an uncertain feeling, not a peaceful feeling, when Satan or his followers imitate the spiritual gifts. The gift of knowing when spiritual gifts are real and when they are Satan’s imitations is called the gift of discernment.
2 Nephi 32:5
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Moroni 10:5–7
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may aknow that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, baccording to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
“Interesting that Evangelicals know so little about the burning in the bosom.”
Interesting that you claim to know SO much.
Humility and meekness at its best?
The question is “How are sinful human beings saved or justified before a holy God?” The answer of course is: on the basis of Christ’s death alone, made possible by grace alone and received by distraught sinners by faith alone. This is the content of the Gospel. This principle of the Gospel has to do with authority. On what basis can one know (be assured) that God is gracious, that He freely wants to have mercy on people? The answer is simple and straight-forward; on the basis of God’s Holy Word the Bible.
There is one redemption, it is by grace alone, there is one authority, the Bible. People are released from fear and receive assurance of salvation when they come to understand the free grace of God, established on Jesus’ complete sacrifice for sin and received in faith. This is not cheap grace or easy believeism. It’s a “new birth” or the work of God within the person.
A false prophet proclaims a false God, a false gospel and provides false assurance. The false gospel of the false prophets can be tested relative to God’s Word. Mormonism can be easily dismissed because it fails on all counts when held up to the standard of the Bible. Waving a false scripture and loudly proclaiming a “new revelation”, Mormonism leads people into a false assurance. The false spirit of Mormonism is more than willing to provide those who have claimed his witness with happy feelings and happy thoughts and even visitations by “spirits” if that will confirm the false gospel for those following this way.
For true assurance, Mormons need to reject the spirit of Mormonism and come to God for salvation and the assurance that eternal life isn’t becoming a god but knowing God. A false god cannot provide anything but a tragic ending.
When a Mormon male talks about “assurance” he will be talking about the assurance of having done enough to become a god. Within the Mormon system there is no such assurance. The Mormon male has the future of his entire family riding on his ability to do enough to progress to the level of becoming a god. His wife and kids are depending on him to get his act together to such a degree that the whole family will get their own planetary system to rule as men made gods.
This is all so bizarre that it doesn’t even qualify as “good” heresy. In the universal system of Mormonism everyone who has ever lived gets some level of “reward”. In-other-words totally rejecting Christ and living a life steeped in sin is “rewarded” within the Mormon system. The only people who will find themselves in outer darkness are apostate Mormons, a scare tactic designed to keep people in the system.
It’s very rewarding to hear the testimonies of exMormons who have found the assurance of eternal life in Christ. Having rejected the false prophet of Mormonism and his false god and false gospel, they have now found forgiveness and new life in Christ. This is Good News!
all,
what do you suppose the primary thing is that keeps a person from turning to the good news, and instead embracing a system of good works?
falcon
considering the Bible is online and your previous challenges for “us” mormons to study it, how can type such fundamentally wrong text?
you say
The question is “How are sinful human beings saved or justified before a holy God?” The answer of course is: on the basis of Christ’s death alone, made possible by grace alone and received by distraught sinners by faith alone.
Then please, learn us Falcon, whatever is the “white throne” for? or the “book of life”?
2 Cor 5:10
Romans 2:6-11
It alsmost seems as if you intentionally disagree with the scriptures to test people, right?
Ever wonder why during this judgement it is the “right” hand, the hand of mercy?
and by the way, since all things are by the grace of God, that is a pretty safe statement you make.
Quoting an Evangelical, “It’s very rewarding to hear the testimonies of ex-Mormons who have found the assurance of eternal life in Christ. Having rejected the false prophet of Mormonism and his false god and false gospel, they have now found forgiveness and new life in Christ. This is Good News!”
EX-MORMONS who could not discern between that which is EVANGELICAL precepts and Creedal Doctrine and that which is witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Amazing.
2 Nephi 32:5
” For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do”.
R.
setfree,
A works program is central to the theme within Mormonism; that men will become gods and rule their own planetary system with their goddess wives. It’s central because the seductive spirit of Mormonism has told the deceived Mormon that he can progress to becoming a god if he personally does enough to work his way up the god ladder of success. It’s a lot like Free Masonry (where Mormonism is rooted) where the men work their way up through various degrees and gain more “knowledge and light”.
It’s all ego driven just like the phony priesthood that gives the Mormon male a significant emotional buzz. It all gets reinforced when the boys play dress-up in their temple outfits and think they are performing ancient sacred rituals to the spirit of Mormonism. Ask anyone who’s escaped Mormonism and they’ll tell you the whole deal is totally weird. But it provides a whole lot of feelings of false assurance.
What these folks under the spirit of Mormonism haven’t figured out is that feelings don’t confirm the truth. The truth confirms the feelings. For those Mormons who care to take a look with a humble and sincere heart, Mormonism can be debunked in about fifteen minutes. But for those who have been seduced it’s a long and some say painful process to deprogram from this insidious belief system that takes people away from the living God and the true assurance of eternal life in Jesus.
Interesting, and I thought Falcon was going to try harder to be Christian, you know being an example to all our visitors and guest.
Nice Falcon, may I quote you?
“It’s all ego driven just like the phony priesthood that gives the Mormon male a significant emotional buzz. It all gets reinforced when the boys play dress-up in their temple outfits and think they are performing ancient sacred rituals to the spirit of Mormonism”.
You know, Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
Is there something I’m missing from the mormon posters here? Yes, I am an ex-mormon. So are many that post here. Should not the parable of the lost sheep apply? But all I see from hank, jim & sub is sarcasm, derision and evasion. Really, you say that yours is the better way, that you have the true faith. Is it expressed in what you post? Can you blame the ex-mormons who have investigated your church and come up short?
But that is the way with the mormons from the get-go. J. Smith & Hyrum pronounced death threats on those former members that opposed them. Are you carrying on that tradition?
If we believe in creeds and false doctrines (like y’all keep repeating) then offer some proof to show us the way. We don’t believe the BOM, so use the BIBLE.
We believe that JS was a false brother who slipped into the fold to deceive many. How can you show us that he did not?
I am curious to know what you can post to show that Smith was not “another wolf”. Can you do that mormonites? Just Smith. He is the crux of your religion. Let’s talk about him. If he was a prophet, he stands up to the scrutiny of a prophet.
Can you answer the challange? I REALLY want to know. Show me I’m wrong.
grindael
Visitors and guest, here is a good example of sensationalized tabloid gossip and false accusations.
Posted by a EVANGELICAL Christian.
“But that is the way with the mormons from the get-go. J. Smith & Hyrum pronounced death threats on those former members that opposed them. Are you carrying on that tradition?”
Now if this person is for real, he will produce the source, the author, and the evidence, good luck.
r. 🙂
In 1838 Sidney Rigdon drew up “a note of warning” threatening the Whitmers, Cowdery, Johnson, and Phelps with violent removal from the county if they did not voluntarily leave.
The June 18 letter was signed by eighty-four elders, including Hyrum Smith, and Caldwell County’s Mormon Sheriff, G. Pitkin. “Out of the county you shall go, and no power shall save you.” The “note” ended:
“There is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you…We will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God.”
I’m not an “evangelical” I’m just a Christian.
Again, you have nothing positive… no evidence that will sway me to believe in Smith…
The Smith brothers had the Danites to do their “dirty work” for them when it came to dealing with non-conformers and ex-members of the church who didn’t peacefully just go away.
“In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness…In June, 1838, at Far West, Mo., a secret organization was formed, Doctor Avard being put in as the leader of the band; a certain oath was to be administered to all the brethren to bind them to support the heads of the church in everything they should teach. All who refused to take this oath were considered dissenters from the church, and certain things were to be done concerning these dissenters, by Dr. Avard’s secret band…my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints…” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Missouri, 1887, pp. 27-28)
“…we have a company of Danites in these times, to put right physically that which is not right, and to cleanse the Church of very great evils which hitherto existed among us inasmuch as they cannot be put to right by teachings & persuasions, This company or a part of them exhibited on the fourth day of July [illegible word] They come up to consecrate by companies of tens, commanded by their captain over ten.” (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1988, p. 14)
Let’s also not forget Joseph Smith’s personal bodyguard, Porter Rockwell, who tried to assassinate Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs. I guess Joseph Smith wanted to settle the score with Lilburn for putting him in prison. Joseph Smith didn’t read Romans 12:19 nor follow the examples of Christ’s Apostles when they were imprisoned and let out. I don’t recall reading in the book of Acts of Paul trying to have the Roman governor “capped”.
Andy,
P. Rockwell was found innocent of those charges, and I believe that. (yeah i do) Does the rest of the Danite history go away. NO. The mormons can’t get around it, though they try to. Smith had the Danites working for him in Nauvoo, though he denounced Avard.
This cursing of enemies began in Kirtland, continued through Missouri, then became solidified in Nauvoo. Mormons don’t know about it, or disbelieve it, but it is true.
JS was a bully. He did NOT take the Saviour’s view, turn the other cheek. JS beat up people, and could care less about the consequences. It ultimately got him killed, and BY made out by taking over the church, even when JS ordained his own son to take over in the event of his death. Smith believed he was King of the earth, and his son his heir.
That is why William had so many problems with BY. It is all history now, and BY (though he at first supported JSIII) changed his mind and took over the church, claiming apostolic rights.
The Political Kingdom of JS was real, the Danites were real, and JS if he lived would have sought to over throw the US and set himself up as KING. Thank God it did not happen. He was killed, though he said God would protect him. He got what he deserved. He was a liar, an adulterer, and a fraud. I’m still waiting for our Mormon friends to change my mind with some kind of proof that he was a REAL Prophet… Nothing yet. They only want to attack and evade the issues. How can JS be a Prophet when he taught the Father is a Spirit in 1835, then he has a body in 1843, when he supposedly SAW him in 1820? Yeah, he wuz a prophet…har de har.
grindael,
Concerning your last point, it’s called “continuous revelation” which in Mormon-speak is “redo”. With the Mormon standard for revelation, anyone can be a prophet and quite frankly they are….claiming all sorts of messages from the Mormon god. Their “foretelling” of future events has the batting average of the worst hitter in minor league class D ball. Andy Watson was telling me when he confronted some JWs about the miserable record of prophesy of their organization they claimed that they have “more light” now therefore the false prophesies don’t count.
The point is that Mormons have bought into this program emotionally and no amount of evidence will move the hard-core (Mormon) from their sanitized version of reality. When Joseph Smith started out he was pretty much a Methodist with extra scripture. As he got his religious sea legs he began to change his doctrine reflecting the views of metaphysical and religious charlatans. Even his view on the Celestial Kingdom was borrowed as was the temple ceremonies and the story line for the BoM. In fact he plagiarized huge sections of the King James Bible and if the phrase “and it came to pass” was banned from the BoM it would be reduced by half.
But when you tell men they can be priests and then gods and rule their own planets and have people worshiping and adoring them, that’s quite a head trip. And, as is the subject of this thread, the thought provides a great emotional buzz which the Mormon male supposes comes from the Mormon god and they have great assurance of their future status. And somewhere in the Mormon psyche, the more evidence against Smith and his scam, the more they believe it. That’s a fairly common mental gymnastic used in order to continue the fantasy. Not all uncommon really.
False hope provides false assurance.
Grindael,
When I read the account of Porter Rockwell in Bushman’s book “Rough Stone Rolling”, it didn’t paint Rockwell as being in the clear. When I watched the movie “September Dawn” (movie recounting the events of the Mountain Meadows Massacre) the opening scene starts out with the Danites barging into the home of one of the LDS dissenters, pulling the man outside, castrating him and nailing his testicles to the side of the front door. I know this was a movie, but I don’t doubt that this kind of thing didn’t go on within the Danites. I guess one would think of the Danites as the Mormon “mafia” back in the 1800’s.
The more I have had to study and research the Jehovah’s Witnesses of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the more amazed I am at the similarities between the two. However, the JW’s have a much worse history of false prophecies. I hand them their old books and ask them for an explanation of date setting the return of Christ, Armageddon and the end of the world and they simply quote Proverbs 4:18. I tell them to read the next verse – Proverbs 4:19 and then they don’t like it! They tell me that these were “mistakes” and “speculation”, but not false prophecies! The interchange that takes place from there gets very interesting.
I asked this question at a Mormon ward one afternoon:
“Please give me positive, historical facts that the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – just give me one because Ezra Taft Benson said there are many.”
LDS response: “Well, we have some clues”
A faith based on clues?
Rockwell was found innocent, but that did not make him innocent. The smithians had a vested interest in getting rid of Boggs, because even though they ran, the problem did not go away. It would have eventually caught up with smith (some say it did).
There was more than one reason smith was building an army. He asked the Federal government if he could build up his legion to 100,000 and was told no. It wasn’t stopping him. He had himself ordained king of the whole earth and started the council of fifty, the political arm of his church.
smith did believe that it was his right to rule over the whole earth, religiously and politically. No telling what “revelations” he would have had to support those claims if he had not been stopped. His militarism alarmed everyone in the state, and it was not just about ‘self-defense’. The wolf in the fold analogy works well for smith and those like him – koresh, jones, manson, etc. smith had a lot of followers to cover for him, and they did.
In 1844 he crowed that he had the truth and defied any man to prove him wrong. I take the challenge personally. His many many sins were all taken with a wink and a nod by the smithians, even going so far as to say smith was ‘trying’ them by smoking, drinking and fornicating.
smith’s idea of God is reflected in his words a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such. His god was only a god when acting as such. He was subject to mind changing like any man – oh that’s right, he is a man! Like that guy is the Star Trek episode ‘Where no man has gone before’ about the crewman who gets god-like powers and Kirk has to slap him down…
The smithians have done what anyone can do with a pocketful of cash – whitewashed their prophet. Too bad the early day smithians were proud of his behavior, and left a lot of records that could not be expunged. The sanitized D&C, History of the Church and POGP attest to the whitewashing. If something doesn’t jive, well he wasn’t a prophet then.
Interesting is the following:
“There is but one decree for you, which is depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you…We will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God.”
Nice try, but what you’re lamely quoting from is the so-called “Danite Manifesto”, which was never signed by either Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon.
This is a false claim that after the “Salt Sermon”, Sidney wrote up the threat and some 87 elders signed it and it became the beginning of the
Danite Manifesto, but only Joseph Brothers name is on it. The letter — later known as the “Danite Manifesto” — displayed the signatures of eighty-three Mormons, including that of Joseph Smith’s brother, and fellow member of the First Presidency, Hyrum. Robinson later claimed that all of the signers were Danites.
Ebenezer Robinson (who remained with the church after 1838), recalled that the next day a letter was “gotten up in the office of the First Presidency,” which Danite leader Sampson Avard later charged was written by Sidney Rigdon.
Samson Avard, the Danites were neither a part of nor legitimately affiliated with either the church or its leaders. Sampson Avard, who organized the group, was cut off from the church as soon as his actions and motives were discovered.
Regards, Richard.
Mormonism has some built in techniques to use when the members’ “sense of assurance” begins to erode. This is especially true when the naive Mormon begins to discover things that their church has attempted to keep well hidden. The fail safe measures are in the form of mottos like; “All of that was debunked years ago!” or “I know all of that and it doesn’t effect my testimony one bit!” or “There’s so much we don’t know!” or “It will all be revealed in the end!” This will work with the simple minded or for those who don’t want their world view and equilibrium upset, but for those with some intellectual and spiritual integrity, such pithy little slogans won’t do. Mormons even have a malady for the loss of assurance called “shaken faith syndrome”. It’s reached epidemic proportions within Mormonism as seen by the increased numbers of resignations and the people going inactive.
The other thing that Mormonism does to keep its members from questioning and finding the truth is to tell them that if they “feel bad” that the spirit isn’t there and they should flee the scene. So when the Mormon’s sense of assurance starts to go south based on “revealed knowledge and light”; that runs contrary to the Mormon tale, they run from it because it’s upsetting.
Finally, in order to keep people in the fold, they are told that if they leave they’ll go to hell (which Mormons don’t believe in so they call it outer darkness). That will definitely do something to someone’s sense of assurance.
One thing that no Mormon is given is the assurance that they’ll become gods. This is the hidden brass ring that keeps Mormons strapped to the plow and obedient little people slaving away within the Mormon system.
I supposed a tethered dog has some sense of security however his world is defined by the length of his rope. The rope Mormons have around their necks is very short and the the clan penalties for breaking free, very severe.
Some assurance!
Of course you deny it. Just like smith denied that he did not practice polygamy and put a phony revelation in the D&C to back it up. It is easy to disavow, smith was just protecting his backside. It is one of those ‘uncomfortable’ truths that smithians cant live up to.
They changed the Temple Ceremony recently to remove certain portions of it that made people uncomfortable. If it was given by GOD, is uncomfortableness a reason to change it? If enough people are uncomfortable with water, will they then change the ordinance of baptism and eliminate it? Same principle. Again, smith has been whitewashed, and the Missouri troubles were the result of smith and his followers wanting to take over those counties where they had fled to. smith had revelations, giving the land to them, and the legitimate settlers be damned. (salt sermon) You see it one way, everyone but hard-core smithians see it another.
it still doesn’t change the fact that those men who opposed smith were threatened with violence. Where do you think blood atonement came from? It gave smith the right to kill his enemies ‘for their own good’.
I notice you avoid the 1835 the Father is a Spirit vs. the 1843 God has a body issue. That WAS in smiths own book of revelations, and proves he was a false prophet and a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Interesting, I disavow with evidence proving that the Manifesto was not signed by Joseph or Sidney, and you deflect by going on to the next bit of mud slinging. Why not step up to the plate and continue on with the original accusation you made and prove me wrong with more then just copying some talking points from a favorite web site or book. Hmmm, interesting indeed.
Yes, they were threatened with a warning, the Danites were extremist, and some might say they had cause since the mobs had taken men and women from their farms, burned their homes and raped their women. Even the Governor of the state said the needed to be “exterminated”.
As for me, I would protect my family at all costs, what say you?
R.
Falcon, can you back up the following: 🙂
“Finally, in order to keep people in the fold, they are told that if they leave they’ll go to hell (which Mormons don’t believe in so they call it outer darkness).”
I won’t hold my breath, you’re blundering is so typical of what you lack in accuracy.
R.
Smith wrote in his journal:
“Thus far, according to the order of the Danites. We have a company of Danites in these times, to put to right physically that which is not right, and to cleanse the Church of every great evil which has hitherto existed among us inasmuch as they cannot be put to right by teachings and persuasyons. This company or a part of them exhibited on the fourth day of July [—] They come up to consecrate, by companies of tens, commanded by their captains over ten.”
He was instrumental in their inception, and only disavowed them after he was caught in 1838. Like polygamy smith went underground with his “danites”. He did go public with the Nauvoo Legion, using the same strong-arm tactics to destroy the Expositor press, which eventually got him killed.
You always hear “Joseph&Hyrum”, “Joseph&Hyrum”, they did everything together. The letter shows the INTENT of the smithians: violence to those who opposed their views. Violence is not scriptural, is in fact directly opposite of what the Saviour taught. Smith lied about polygamy, what else did he lie about? His people became slaves to his appetites, doctrines and foolishness, and were run out of every place they ever settled with smith. It was easy for him to cry persecution, but there is enough evidence (money digging, failed banks, intolerance to the gentiles) to back up the claim that he was a wolf.
Well I see one of our Mormon boasters wants me to back up a statement. The problem is I don’t know what part he wants me to back up; that Mormons teach that there’s an outer darkness, that Mormons are “told” that if they leave Mormonism they’ll go to outer darkness, or if they’ll go to outer darkness if they leave the program but they’re not told that.
Well let’s see, LDS apostle George Q. Cannon including in the list of folks heading to outer darkness as “those who are unfaithful”. I would guess that an apostate Mormon would be someone who is “unfaithful”. Who else? OO, OO what about a guy by the name of Joseph Smith. In an April 1844 church conference address devoted to his King Follett’s eulogy, Joseph Smith said, “After a man has sinned the sin against the Holy Ghost there is no repentance for him….like many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They go too far and the Spirit leaves them….you can’t renew them to repentance-you cannot save them.” (Stan Larson, “The King Follett Discourse: a new amalgamated text” BYU Studies 18 (Winter 1978).
Also a poem based on DC 76 Smith approved of and appeared under his pen by William Phelps mentions the “sons of perdition”, “those ever lost”, “the torment apostates receive”.
But I’m sure this isn’t what was really meant or doesn’t count because it was said a long time ago or some such other lame excuse of which Mormons are famous and on which Mormonism continues despite all evidence that it’s a scam.
About the only arrow our Mormon boy has in his quiver is to charge that Christian posters either don’t know what they’re talking about or that the Christians are wrong. Pretty typical. My experience over the last couple of years is that our Mormon contributors typically lack any real depth when it comes to understanding Mormonism and certainly not Christianity. But they provide a foil so perhaps they do serve a purpose.
Emotion can be a force in the life of a Christian and when based on truth, can provide the assurance of salvation that brings joy and peace to the believer. The Pietist, Heinrich Mueller pointed out in “Heavenly Kiss of Love” that while humanity is totally depraved (incapable of attaining to salvation on its own), there is that within the person which can be “awakened,” although this awakening cannot occur apart from the activity of the Holy Spirit in the hearing of the Word of God.
The Pietists took seriously the significance of human emotion and the psyche. Emotionalism was, in fact, fostered to some degree by the introspective, psychologizing tendencies found in Pietism: Who am I? Am I truly a child of God? Am I living in a state of sin or grace? Am I backsliding? Why am i doing this? What are my feelings telling me?
Response was the aim of Pietist preaching. The person traspped in original sin was not only blind, but was incapable of recognizing his or her blindness. The Holy Spirit, who is active in the preaching and hearing of the Word of God, awakens the image of God in the person and reveals the depths to which he or she has fallen.
The desired response was either one of repentance and personal commitment, or a renewed desire for holiness manifested in love for God and acts of love for one’s neighbor.
This process isn’t a manipulation of people’s emotions and producing counterfeit or superficial religious experiences. Jonathan Edwards felt that central to our genuine religious experiences are our “affections”. Edwards did caution agtainst sheer emotionalism. This would result in an excitement of the emotions and counterfeit conversions. High emotions were neither clear evidence of genuine religion nor of the lack of it.
This was Edwards Biblical test for genuine religious experience: a focus on God’s gracious work, doctrines consistent with Biblical revelations, and a life marked by the fruits of the Spirit.
Since I was challenged regarding the common fear of Mormons that if they leave the Mormon church they will end up in outer darkness, I thought a short video presentation on the subject might be appropriate. It seems that this is a common fear among Mormons and one that seeks to contain them in the Mormon system and mess with their minds and assurance. The short video can be viewed at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlZXacnN9o
Perhaps some of our exMormons can chime in here regarding their experience with this question.
Falcon conveniently leaves out how one can sin against the Holy Ghost. For one who claims to know our doctrine I find his answer pretty pathetic for lack of doing some real personal research. Interesting.
But then again, when you listen to the tinkling of bells, as is common amongst those who rely on others for their knowledge, you get nothing more then copy and past talking points.
Falcon, get real and study the subject before you blunder even more then you have.
Peace, Richard. 🙂
falcon
the LDS church does not teach or “say” that if one leaves the church it means outer-darkness.
Again, you have proven that your intention is to be inflammatory, bias, and deceitful with that type posts.
Considering the 11th article of faith which states:
“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
I would challenge you to actually prove your claim, which you won’t or can’t, but that is ok, you are exposed as no more than an instigator (and no, some unsubstantiated youtube video is not proof).
I have seen many of your posts and the tone is typically the same…….and me thinks thou doth protest too much.
Well there you go visitors and guest, even my friend Subgenius has pointed out the blundering and fumbling of facts and evidence our Friend Falcon will not be able to provide. Happy camping good buddy.
So the question is to anyone, are those who leave the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS cast into outer darkness as our instigator Christian friend mistakenly made claim to. 🙂
Regards.
I would say, let [apostates] alone severely. The man who will apostatize from the truth, forsake his God and his religion, is a traitor to everything there is in heaven, earth, and hell. There is no soundness, goodness, truth, or virtue in him; nothing but darkness and corruption, and down to hell he will go. This may grate on the delicate ears of some, and they may think it is a pretty hard sentence, still it is true. (Brigham Young JOD 12:58)
Hell… is outer darkness. Young here says they will go to hell. Young is the one being inflammatory here.
Our Mormon posters demonstrate time and again that they know nothing of what their religion teaches. All of the quotes presented here plus the video show a pervading thought process within Mormonism that those who leave the cult will suffer banishment to outer darkness. Our Mormon posters’ ignorance is only exceeded by their arrogance. I think they would do better at a Mormon blog where they can revel in the feats of that great warrior Zelph or discuss whether or not Cain really is the ancestor of Big Foot.
A while ago I posted some remarks about Martin Luther, Calvin and the Wesleys that I had found on some websites that were quite inflammatory against these people. for instance Calvin, it had that he was a tyrant in the area in which he lived having any one who talked out against him imprisoned or executed and that he was the one who ordered the execution of Servetus. On the other sites about Luther and the Wesleys, similar sentiments were raised, that they were men to be feared because of their violent and/or abusive natures. When I pointed out these sites I was told that I was not doing proper research and to go and look at a ‘pro’ rather than an ‘anti’ website about these men for a better and more balanced view of their life styles and beliefs.
Well what can I say? Do the same with JS – there are many of his contempories both in and out of the LDS church who have written about how good and kind and non-violent, etc JS was. Who is right and who is wrong? We do not live in those times and thus we rely on the records kept by people we cannot question because they are not alive. If someone had something against JS then yest, they would write something terrible about him whether false or a stretch of the truth. If someone liked him then they would write many gleaming things about him. All of the records we have are biased one way or another with no way for us to determine the actual truth.
Also eyewitnesses tell what they believe was the truth in what they saw. This does not mean that it was factual or correct. I was in a court case where 3 witnesses to an event told 3 different stories and gave different descriptions of the armed robber. We could not convict him because of that – but all 3 were standing together on the opposite side of the gun to the robber, they were not outside observers, so one would think they would at least give the same description.
Smith made the statement that ‘I have the truth and am at the defiance of the world to prove me wrong if they can.’
Most of the damning information on Smith, has come out of his own mouth, or quoted from mormon sources.
His First Vision accounts are a good example of this. He wrote one down in 1832 where he left out many of the details that he later included in his 1838 official version. You have an account by Oliver Cowdery, who was with smith for YEARS, publishing in the Millennial Star (later Times& Seasons) that when he was 17(1823), the religious excitement took place that inspired smith to go to God for THE FIRST TIME, and he prayed in his room and a messenger told him his sins were forgiven..etc. etc.
The 1832 account (the Lord only appeared to him) is consistent with his teachings about God that culminated in the Lectures on Faith, included with smiths ‘revelations’ as the BELIEFS of the church. In them we see smith teaching The Father is a Spirit, The Son was the Son because of the FLESH and the Holy Ghost was the mind of the two.
Then smith ‘revised’ the vision, to catch up with his changing beliefs on God, in support of his spiritual wife system. God is a man, who lived on an earth like this and has many wives to populate the many worlds he runs. (to legitimize polygamy)
These are smiths own words, and he is like those different witnesses, who can’t get their stories straight. That is what happens when you invent. He told Cowdery one thing, who published it, then started his history that F.G.Williams was working on with him. By this time the messenger story wasn’t good enough for smith, he needed a visit by the Lord himself.
The progression here is obvious, if you are not too blind to see it. He was the one who said HIS was the ONLY way. He put the burden on himself.
Mormons just can’t accept the quotes of their own prophets. Again: god/smith is only god/smith when he is acting as such. Smith said he was a god to his people. He still is.
grindael,
Actually what you present is very relevant to the topic at hand; assurance. In an interview with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories, Grant Palmer, author of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins” discusses the various accounts of Smiths vision. According to Palmer, Smith’s trip to the woods were to gain the assurance of the forgiveness of sins. His story changed and became more fantastic whenever he faced a crisis of leadership within his organization.
The idea of going to the woods and seeking God, it seems, was pretty common among folks in the 19th century as Charles Finney describes a similar quest and experience. He reported that he purposed not to come out of the woods until he had settled the issue of his salvation.
The idea of having an emotional experience was all pretty much part and parcel of the revivalist fervor of that time. Smith was a great borrower of ideas and practices. He borrowed his view of the three levels of heaven which was written about by someone else, he borrowed the idea of polygamy from another cult leader of the time, he borrowed his temple rituals from the Free Masons, he borrowed the burning in the bosom from the revival teachers and his “spirit” manifestations came right out of the occult of which he was a willing and enthusiastic practitioner.
In order to keep people in line he was great at intimidation. Smith’s legacy continues in the Mormon church today.
It’s more than a little dangerous to put one’s assurance of salvation in the hands of someone who claims “visions”, especially those that run contrary to God’s Holy Word, the Bible. The apostle Paul warns about people who brag about visions they have seen. Joseph Smith never had an original idea but he was “good” (excuse the word) at borrowing his ideas from a variety of sources, massaging them and calling them his own. One such concept was his teaching on heaven which Mormons are placing their hopes, dreams and assurances on.
In his book “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View”, D. Michael Quinn offers an exhaustive examination of the sources for the 1832 D and C Section 76 “Vision” of the “three degrees of glory.” Smith copied this idea and it proved very controversial among the LDS folks. In their diaries Orson Pratt and John Murdock described countless excommunications of Mormons, even branch presidents, who denounced the degrees of glory as a “satanic revelation.” Brigham Young described it as “a trial to many.”
So why did this cause problems for Mormons? Quinn explains that it’s because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers during and before Smith’s time.
Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book in 1784 about his “visions” of the afterlife. He said that “there are three heavens,” and “entirely distinct from each other.” His highest heaven was “the Celestial Kingdom,”.
By Joseph Smith’s own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg’s writings. He told Edward Hunter; “Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished..” In other words, he didn’t profit from his visions.
“Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders” describes the three “Mormon” degrees of glory including the veil, spirit prison, celestial marriage and more.
Smith plagiarized from Swedenborg’s book to come up with his D and C visions of the celestial telestial and terrestial, kingdoms.
falcon
as usual, anecdoatal evidnece, conjecture and supposition have failed to serve you.
you say
“All of the quotes presented here plus the video show a pervading thought process within Mormonism that those who leave the cult will suffer banishment to outer darkness”
You originally claim that the “LDS Church” doctrine says that if you leave, etc..to date you have provided no proof. Now even your own message is becoming revised, you are watering down your own outlandish claims in hopes that their falsehood will be cloaked in obscurity.
grindael
revisions are only allowed in the Ev tradition? What did King James do to the scriptures, what about the countless other translations upon translations which have simply become a comedy of errors in some cases…rather like the childhood game of the chinese telephone.
You speak to the heart of what many see as the great flaw in modern Pauline Ev teachings….diluted Gospel, Cultural Corruption at the spiritual level, and a lack of focus on the core scriptures which are without denomination.
And your BY quote does not say that if you leave the LDS church you will be cast into outer darkness….a mere grasp at straws.
In order to maintain some sort of “assurance” that Mormonism is true in light of overwhelming evidence that it is false, the true believer finds “outs”. That is they redefine key words or retrofit LDS doctrine to suit their needs (for assurance). The use of mind games, selective blindness and amnesia works very well in maintaining an assurance that all is well when all is clearly not well.
For a whole lot of Mormons, the truth cannot disrupt their sense of assurance in Joseph Smith. One author wrote: “for the true believer there can be no such thing as dis-confirming evidence, simply because his true belief was never based on evidence in the first place. Mormon belief, like all fanatical, false beliefs, only maintains a veneer of rational justification; underneath it is virtually content-free. It is, in fact, merely a psychological state, distinguishable only by the particular totems it anchors itself with; for example the BoM, BoA.
It is a very dangerous thing in deed to put assurance, faith, hope and trust in a psychological state produced by a desire to believe when all rational evidence says the belief is false. But this is part of the attractiveness of maintaining faith in something that is clearly false. To be a “true believer” and deny reality carries weight within the cult. It elevates one to a higher level within the group when doubts have been banished and the person emerges with a deeper commitment to the cause.
It is no fun to be in a state of disequilibrium that doubt brings. However a true sense of assurance is based on Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross and our coming to God in faith having accepted what Christ did for us in total payment for our sins. No, we can never out “do” what God did for us through His Son Jesus Christ. Our assurance of salvation rests on the Cross where God died for the ungodly and through his love and mercy provided us with eternal life. That’s assurance based on truth.
The final judgment is not limited to either heaven or hell. All humankind (except those who deny the Holy Ghost and become sons of perdition) will be redeemed when Christ perfects his work. Everyone who has lived on the earth will eventually inherit a degree of glory.
Spirit Prison, not yet the final judgement of God.
So what is the temporary abode of the wicked? Well we do use the term outer darkness in reference to a condition in the spirit world.
The Book of Mormon teaches that after death, the spirits of those who “chose evil works rather than good” in mortality will be “cast out into outer darkness”. So Falcon, this place of torment in the spirit world is much more commonly referred to by Latter-day Saints as spirit prison.
“Those in mortal life who “deny the Holy Ghost,” which is generally interpreted as leaving and fighting against the LDS Church after receiving a personal witness of the truthfulness of the Gospel from the Holy Ghost. It is frequently added that a son of perdition must have a “perfect knowledge” of the truth of the Church (mere faith is not enough). Generally, the requirement of perfect knowledge is only fulfilled by a personal visitation from Jesus Christ or an angel of the Lord.”
This was taught by LDS Church President Spencer W. Kimball.
So again my good friend, a little personal research is all the was needed to understand that you have again blundered and misunderstood something you stated, when in fact the LDS Church never stated it as you presupposed.
Visitors and guest, please contact you local LDS Missionaries, where the Plan of Salvation will be revealed with accuracy and truthfulness.
🙂
Regards, Richard.
grindael stated, “Hell… is outer darkness. Young here says they will go to hell. Young is the one being inflammatory here.”
Interesting that you are willing to borrow from your antiquated talking points and still get it wrong.
Hell is considered a place we call spirit prison, a place where some spirits wait for the final judgement of their works and deeds. Paradise is where the righteous wait.
Those who deny LDS doctrine, once being a member have cast themselves out of membership in God Kingdom, and the truth is no more in them. Alas, they are not likely sons of perdition and will eventually be given a lesser kingdom in Gods Three degrees of Glory. Sorry, but you failed to do your homework or you trusted to much in others and failed miserably because you lacked any desire to find out for yourself.