What follows is a noteworthy article from Tabletalk magazine, January 2009:
For the Love of Slavery?
by John P. Sartelle
“Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in — who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery” (Gal 2:4).
She was eighty-six and her body was failing but her mind was clear. The doctor had said she would not last the month. I was on my way out of town for two days and stopped by her home. After I read some verses from the Scriptures she asked a question that still rings in my ears after thirty-seven years: “John, do you think I have done enough to be saved?” I spoke to her of God’s grace to sinners and quoted passages about Christ dying for the ungodly. Then I prayed with her and left. She died the next day. She had heard the gospel preached every Sunday for over a half century. Yet, hours away from her death she was still striving to do enough to earn her salvation.
In Galatians 2:4 Paul speaks of some illegitimates in the church who were trying to add the performance of men to the gospel of faith alone in Christ alone. He spoke of this as a return to slavery. And that is exactly what salvation through the Law or through religious ritual is: slavery. I have lived in that slave camp. In the morning I arose to the endless demands of the Law that I could not satisfy. Oh, I worked hard to erect a façade that looked good to the world around me. But at the end of each day, I knew that under my polished veneer were the dark, indelible stains of failure. Thus, I went to bed each evening shackled to the Law. Therein was a great irony: The very Law that chained me was condemning me! No matter how hard I worked at obedience, the Law cracked the whip with the constant mantra, “More, more…not enough…not enough.”
Then came Jesus. He told me to trust in Him to do what I could not do — faith alone in Christ alone. That was the key He put into the lock that held my chains. Freedom! Freedom from laws God made and freedom from laws man had invented. Freedom from constant accusation and guilt; freedom from God’s judgment. Was God’s law invalid? No. But His law could not save me.
If this freedom is so wonderful, then why was Paul forced to warn the Galatians not to return to the prison of endless efforts of self justification? Who would want to return to that slavery? I think the answer is deeper than merely pointing to some counterfeit teachers with a flawed theology. There is a constant temptation, even in authentic Christians, to return to the self-praise of self-sufficiency. Even as we grow in Christ and our lives look different to the world around us, it is easy to take credit for our holiness. That is only a step away from attributing justifying merit to our service to Christ.
It is not easy to live with charity. Javert, the law officer in Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables, could not live with the grace he had received from Jean Valjean. He thought of himself as being morally superior to Valjean. He would rather die than live with such a humiliating grace. Gospel self-denial brings us to the admission of being helpless in ourselves. Complete dependence on God’s grace gives glory only to Him. It leaves no credit to self. The remnant of sin in the Christian still desires the exaltation of self over the exaltation of Christ. That is what drives us back to the prison and chains of the Law.
We could conclude by pointing to the joy of freedom as our motivation for holding fast to grace. The prison of the Law ultimately holds only the despair of slavery. However, it is not the joy, in and of itself, that will keep us from returning to prison. The gospel of grace was not invented and accomplished by man. The gospel of grace is the plan and revelation of God. Our salvation is not dependent on fervor no matter how sincere. Our salvation is dependent on dogma and the truth of that dogma.
Paul went to Jerusalem with Titus, a Gentile disciple of Christ, whom some insisted had to be circumcised before he could be a true Christian. He had complete faith in the truth of the grace he had been teaching. He did not go there in doubt of his message. Neither did he go there doubting the message of Peter, James, and John. He knew they had received the same truth that he had received. He was bringing the heretical teaching of self-justification through the Law and ritual before the court of God’s revelation. What a picture! Peter, James, John, and Paul were in one room with other representatives from the church. Peter, James, John, and Paul standing shoulder to shoulder proclaiming God’s revealed doctrine of faith alone by grace alone. Titus went home uncircumcised!
Do you rest all your life on faith alone in Christ alone? If you do, you know that you will never hear from the grace of Calvary: “More, more…not enough, not enough.”
_____________________
Reprinted from Tabletalk, January 2009, volume 33, number 1. Used by permission of Ligonier Ministries, home of Renewing Your Mind.
———————-
Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
———————-
What we can see very clearly from the revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others and also the rather anxiety filled discussion on the video, is that Mormonism and Mormons do not treat kindly those who choose to exit the clan. Not only are they threatened with “outer darkness” but also Mormonism has it’s only particular form of shunning that seeks to isolate and intimidate those who leave. This is all very much patterned after classical methods of psychological intimidation of cults.
The stories are way too many and way too consistent to suggest that the accounts are of those who are apostates due to a sinful life style. Let’s face it, this is a mean religion whose roots in fear and intimidation go all the way back to the founding of the sect. Joseph Smith intimidated women into marrying him by using eternal security as a ploy. His demise came as a direct result of his attack on a member who sought to expose his sinful life style.
When it comes to assurance, these early Mormons were experts at manipulation and intimidation.
Part 1
I see that there is an invitation and request by the followers of Joseph Smith’s religion to document what the LDS Church states about apostates of the Church and their destiny – specifically outer darkness. Thanks for the invitation – I’ll take it. It’s unfortunate that these clear teachings aren’t addressed at the ward house for Mormons to learn, but that would take away from personal testimonies, burnings of the bosom and tears shed for the deceased said Joseph Smith.
I can’t think of anyone better to state what the LDS Church believes and teaches on this than the Mormons themselves. LDS posters here sprint to BYU, FARMS and FAIR for information – not me. They have no authority. These references do:
“All APOSTATES are turned over to the buffetings of Satan in one degree or another, with the full wrath of Satan reserved for those who are cast into OUTER DARKNESS with him in that kingdom devoid of glory” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:75)
“Let it be remembered, however, that the punishment of the apostate, no matter who he is or what degree of knowledge he may have attained, shall be most severe. ‘Hearken and hear, O ye my people, saith the Lord and your God, ye whom I delight to bless with the greatest blessings, ye that hear me; and ye that hear me not will I curse, THAT HAVE PROFESSED MY NAME, with the heaviest of all cursings'” (D&C 41:1; Doctrines of Salvation 3:310)
Part 2
“OUTER DARKNESS. These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for THEY DENIED THE HOLY SPIRIT AFTER HAVING RECEIVED IT. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. [See D&C 76:28-35, 44-48] (Gospel Principles, 1997, p.298)
“What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He had got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many APOSTATES of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Teachings of Joseph Smith, p.358)
What are the first ordinances of the LDS gospel? Baptism and RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST. If one leaves the LDS Church, have they not denied what they once thought the LDS Church gave them? If a former Church member rejects the Mormon “jesus” and the LDS plan of salvation, do they not fit this definition by Smith?
Part 3
“I think I am safe in saying that no man can become a Son of Perdition until he has known the light. Those who have never received the light are not to become Sons of Perdition. They will be punished if they rebel against God. They will have to pay the price of their sinning, but it is only those who have the light through the priesthood and through the power of God and through their MEMBERSHIP IN THE CHURCH who will be banished forever from this influence into OUTER DARKNESS to dwell with the devil and his angels. That is punishment that will not come to those who have never known the truth. Bad as they may suffer, and awful as their punishment may be, they are not among that group which is to suffer the eternal death and banishment from all influence concerning the power of God” (Joseph Fielding Smithk, In Conference Reports, October 1958, p.21)
“It is very clear in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:30-37, that the only persons who will be completely overcome by this dreadful fate are the sons of perdition who go with the devil and his angels into OUTER DARKNESS. All the rest of mankind will receive some measure of salvation, after suffering of the wrath of God. From the reading of other passages we discover, however, that there will be great multitudes, who will never come back again to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. These receive banishment from their presence, but not entirely do they get beyond the divine influence” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Answers to Gospel Questions” 5:107-108)
Brigham Young – the “movie star”:
“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line, and righteousness to the plummet. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:83; Brackets in original).
Part 4
I’m sure Elder Joseph W. Sitati, First Quorum of the Seventy, an African (black) would love this line from Brigham related to apostasy:
“Brethren who have been on missions, can you see and difference in this people from the time you went away until your return? [Voices: ‘Yes’] You can see men and women who are sixty or seventy years of age looking young and handsome; but let them APOSTATIZE and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and BLACK, JUST LIKE THE DEVIL” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 5:332; Brackets in original)
“…all those who are not found written in the book of rememberance, shall have no inheritance in that day. Their portion shall be with the unbelievers, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that found to have APOSTATIZED, or to have have been CUT OFF FROM THE CHURCH, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High…The members of the Church today should take warning from this which is written and keep themselves prepared by their faithful adherence to the principles of the Gospel, and be true to their covenants, so that when that day shall come, if they are here to share in it, they will not be found like these Jews in the days of Ezra, but will have their names written in the book of rememberance.” (D&C Student Manual, p.186)
Here we have clarification on the term “hell” and “outer darkness” given by an LDS apostle – not an LDS Mormon Coffee “apostle”:
“Death and hell in their most extreme extensions have been referred to as outer darkness” (LDS Apostle Jeffrey Holland, “However Long and Hard the Road”, p.21)
Part 5
“But the others, who are not fit to be redeemed, either in the telestial or terrestrial or celestial, are also to be raised from the dead, and because they would not abide in the truth made manifest unto them, but turned away from it willfully, going by degrees from wickedness to wickedness, from sin to sin, from darkness to darkness, they will go away into ‘OUTER DARKNESS where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.’ This is known as ‘the second death'” (Charles Penrose, In Conference Reports, October 1911, p.52)
“President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that the shedding of innocent blood is not confined to taking lives of the innocent, but is also included in seeking to destroy the word of God and putting Christ to open shame. THOSE WHO HAVE KNOWN THE TRUTH AND THEN FIGHT AGAINST THE AUTHORIZED SERVANTS OF JESUS CHRIST ALSO FIGHT AGAINST HIM, AND THUS ARE GUILTY OF HIS BLOOD. Shedding innocent blood is spoken of in the scriptures as consenting to the death of Jesus Christ and putting him to open shame.” (D&C Student Manual, p.162)
If someone leaves the Mormon Church, denies the Mormon “jesus” and its “holy spirit/ghost”, openly speaks against the LDS Church, goes on internet blogs stating the heresy of the Mormon Church, are they not the definition of the above? Gerald & Sandra Tanner, Fawn Brodie, Michael Quinn, David Whitmer, John Bennett, William Law and Emma Smith (a very short list): Are they not apostates? Sons of Perdition? They all openly spoke against the LDS Church and those living still do today. What is their destiny? If one walks out on the LDS Church, what is that saying: “I don’t believe in what you teach, I don’t believe in your prophet, your gospel, your christ and spirit and I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.” Is their destiny not the same as all the tens of thousands who have left the church and defy its teaching: outer darkness?
Okay, LDS posters, let the spin begin!
Andy,
Excellent job as usual. The spin on this topic from our Mormon posters is beyond funny. They really are clueless regarding what their religion teaches. There’s a whole lot of denial and back-filling that goes on trying to fill their religion up with their own meaning. Idle babblers as far as I can see.
To Our Mormon Lurkers:
Here’s the deal if you’ve been intimidated and threatened with outer darkness and all sorts of other vicious nasty things if you leave the clan; know who Jesus is and what He did for you at the Cross, accept it through faith and be born again into a new reality of God. Here’s what the Bible says about those who come to know who God really is and have accepted the free gift of eternal life through faith:
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39
This is real assurance not based on the Mormon creeds and testimonies of this empty religion, but it is an assurance that comes through the Holy Spirit that you have security not based on your own works, but on the Blood of Christ and His perfect sacrifice, complete for all time.
Hell is referred to as outer darkness. At death the spirits
of the wicked “shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing,
and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will
of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state
of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus
they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their
resurrection.” (Alma 40:13-14.) So complete is the darkness prevailing in the minds of
these spirits, so wholly has gospel light been shut out of their consciences, that they know
little or nothing of the plan of salvation, and have little hope within themselves of
advancement and progression through the saving grace of Christ. Hell is literally a place
of outer darkness, darkness that hates light, buries truth, and revels in iniquity. [Mormon Doctrine, page 441]
How did I fail to do MY homework. You forget, I was a smithian for 13 years. I still own the entire JoD, Mormon Doctrine, History of the Church, Inspired Version, D&C, 3 versions, – (the older are photocopied from the original).
You know Richard, you can pull your crap on others, but not on me. I met McConkie. He was a jerk. The nicest one I met was Harold B. Lee.
I spent 3 YEARS at BYU. I read every tome published by the likes of Dean Jesse, Hugh Nibley, etc. I even have the 2003 book series on the Teachings of the Prophets. You think you can word play? You cant’ The second version of Mormon Doctrine was re-done by Spencer Kimball. All of it was approved by the church. You STILL did not answer about his GOD Doctrine changing from 1830 to 1843. Not one answer from any mormon posters. I dont care about the revisions in the bible. I have JESUS, he is my Saviour and died for me. His doctrine is this: Be baptized, believe in Me and live a good life. You have the burden of proving smith.
Andy
first – brevity should be considered
second – apostates is clearly in most references about those who forsake religion in general, and on occasion those who forsake the Mormon church. This is not a wholesale doctrine of the church as is being painted by the typical Ev rhetoric.
third – obviously a post unfamiliar with the history of the church. do som research about founding members of the COJCOLDS. You will find stories of betrayal and selfishness occurred when the Church did not cater to their secular cares, which led to a sort of abandonment from some of JS peers. Obviously his temeprment in your quotes is i nreference to those specific individuals and the attitude they were infected with.
fouth – Nevertheless, the claims stated about apostates is true…no matter the religious affiliation. Please, show me where it is written or what church protes that an apostate will recieve anything different than what you have colorfully characterized above.
Catholic, protestant, Mormon, no matter…all preach that when a person “apostates” their future is grim. Do the scriptures not confirm that a denial of the Holy ghost is dismal? Is this board not littered with the same condemnation directed at Mormons?
fifth – their is no “spin” to begin for you have spun enough…so much in fact that i fear you may be too dizzy to see straight.
falcon,
there are no mormon lurkers reading your posts…people who are lost or are questioning their faith do not repond to abrasive rhetoric aimed at destruction. The weak and weary respond to “lifting up” not the opposite, but hey, good luck with your “strategy”.
lather….rinse…repeat
As taught by mormon AUTHORITIES:
“Apostasy consists in the abandonment and forsaking of … true
principles, and all those who do not believe and conform to them are in an apostate
condition, WHETHER THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DEPARTED FROM THE TRUTH,
or whether they inherited their false concepts from their apostate fathers.”
(Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 34)
What have the Latter-day Saints got to apostatize from? Everything that
there is good, pure, holy, God-like, exalting, ennobling, extending the
ideas, the capacities of the intelligent beings that our Heavenly Father has
brought forth upon this earth. What will they receive in exchange? I can
comprehend it in a very few words. These would be the words that I
should use: death, HELL and the grave. That is what they will get in
exchange. (DBY, 85).
“There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel
with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked
and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing,
and HIS END IS TO BE BURNED.”(Teachings of Joseph Smith, pg. 38)
“Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my
Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth
therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
(D&C 84:40-41.)
Note: Teachings of the Prophets series came out in 1997, not 2003.
I see the sub and R. backpedaling like mad.
R: “So the question is to anyone, are those who leave the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS cast into outer darkness as our instigator Christian friend mistakenly made claim to…”
Answered. (see the above quotes)
Sub: “I would challenge you to actually prove your claim, which you won’t or can’t…”
Answered. (see above quotes)
Sub: “Please, show me where it is written or what church protes that an apostate will recieve anything different than what you have colorfully characterized above.”
Answered. (see above quotes)
Then this by sub: “Catholic, protestant, Mormon, no matter…all preach that when a person “apostates” their future is grim…”
This topic is not about Jesus teachings on hell, but yours. Apostasy = Outer Darkness.
From Falcon: “Since I was challenged regarding the common fear of Mormons that if they leave the Mormon church they will end up in outer darkness…”
Proved.
Still no answer on the Mormon God Doctrine that smithians are enslaved to.
I find it interesting how LITTLE the mainstream Mormons like quotes by ole Brigham Young. I mean, Joseph Smith said he could, unlike Jesus, hold a church together, and yet we all know that Joseph Smith’s little church separated into pieces that disagree with each other.
Then, Mainstream Mormons, having gone with the Brigham Young branch-off of JS’s church MUST, you would think, like what Brigham Young was preaching more than say, what Joseph Smith III was.
And yet, you bring up what he wrote, and they ignore you. It’s just plain fascinating.
I’d think that converts would take it more seriously. I can see why someone born and raised in a particular branch of Mormonism would tend to remain where they’d always been. But for converts to Joseph’s church… shouldn’t you at least agree with what the second “prophet” said, when deciding to go with this particular branch of Smithism?
Sub,
I actually appreciate when someone knows so much about the topic that they can give ample evidence to support their case.
Since they are answering your questions in their comments, it might be worth trying to slow down and read what they wrote, instead of being annoyed by the length?
grindael
yes, apostasy = outer darkness but leaving the LDS church does not necessarliy mean apostasy…11th article of Faith proves that.
Falcon puts forth an entirley skewed post. He is promoting the idea that Mormons are being made to “fear” leaving the church, rather than being made to be afraid of leaving God, which is not the case, as is the notion that this fear is “common”.. so…. “not proved”.
setfree
the only people that seem to hold prophets as needing to be infallible are Ev…the everyday Mormon memebr realizes and accepts the notion that ALL mankind is less than perfect. I ma sorry that JS and BY have disappointed you, but i would encourage you to endure to the end.
Sub,
I’m not signed up under those guys. They can be as imperfect as they want to be. The only thing I have against them is that they built a following who think they’re headed the right way, but aren’t.
Sub:
Your article of faith argument has no bearing on this discussion. It only says that
mormons allow others to worship as they please. How does that “prove” anything”
I read ALL of your posts. You obviously do not take the time to analyze the evidence,
and gloss over “what you can’t, or won’t answer” (yours/Richards words)
Once again: “Apostasy consists in the abandonment and forsaking of … true
principles” (see whole McConkie quote, above) Apostasy = leaving church = outer
darkness. (hell)
No matter how hard the smithians try to ‘whitewash’ their teachings, the core statements
of their own GA’s derail it time after time.
As Aaron has proved with his videos, you are completely out of touch with your own base
of believers. The smithians DO use fear as a weapon against their own members. Just look
on the internet and see how many ex-mormons have posted their stories about how they were
intimidated by the GA’s, Bishops and Stake Presidents.. Signature Books was started by a
mormon who honestly wanted to publish historical accounts and points of view that the GA’s
frowned upon.
Falcon’s statements ARE proved by a preponderance of the evidence, while you, to use your own
words : “have proven that your intention is to be inflammatory, bias, and deceitful…”
Me think thou dost whine too much…
Still no answer to [1835] God is a Spirit(with no body) vs. [1843] God has a body. This is the crux of why JS invented then changed the FV. Oh, & I’ve read the apologists on this & they hold no water.
Falcon, setfree, please pray for me: I have surgery tomorrow.
Grindael, will do. My pastor says that Biblical hope is “a confident expectation of good”, and of course, our hope is in Jesus. So I’ll pray, and you have hope that our LORD has you well in hand!
Sons of perdition and outer darkness is the typical tendency for some EV’s to misread Latter-day Saint scriptures and teachings, example:
In LDS theology a Son of Perdition is someone who has been a member of the LDS Church, known its doctrinal secrets, had the witness of the Spirit, and turned away from the Church. Such apostates are considered to be worse than the devil, and LDS scriptures describe them as being better off having never been born (see D&C 76:31—32).
Language in Doctrine and Covenants 76 describes those who become sons of perdition, but many EV’s has misread the text. It does not teach that simple apostasy from the church relegates one to being a son of perdition. The full text states:
Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. (D&C 76:31—35)
To be a son of perdition requires more than a witness of the Spirit—they must have known God’s power and been made partakers thereof. Further, they must defy God’s power—not merely deny, but defy. Further, they must crucify Christ unto themselves and put him to an open shame. Joseph Smith taught:
All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
In this statement, Joseph Smith does not describe an apostate who simply leaves the church. EV’s displays a fundamental misunderstanding of Latter-day Saint doctrine.
I do remember being taught (in Seminary?) that I didn’t need to worry about committing the unpardonable sin because to do so, one would have to pretty much see God, and then deny Him.
However, I also always knew that leaving the church was “up there” among very worst sins one could commit.
… of course, i knew i’d never ever leave the church, so possibly, i never cared consider how serious a sin it really was…
So we are back to telling us what we believe again instead of listening to us. You can say that the underlying teaching of apostates is that all who leave the LDS church will go to hell/outer darkness all you like – the truth is that is neither what is taught nor how it is interpreted.
It would be like me saying now, after all the times it has been explained on this site, that the underlying doctrine of your teaching about salvation through faith alone despite works means that you have a free pass to do what ever you like. I have the proof from a quote by Martin Luther who said that once one believes in Jesus then they can commit hundreds of murders and adulteries a day but still be saved. That means that all of these Christian churches (eg the American Anglican church and the Australian Presbyterian and Methodist churches) that are ordaining gay ministers are still correct in there teachings and are saving people. And so on and so forth. I know that is not how you understand or teach this doctrine, but that is the underlying doctrine if taken to its logical conclusion.
We teach that only those who have had a sure testimony from the Holy Ghost and then leave and fight fervently against the truth will become the sons of perdition. This does not usually encompass the general members of the church but those in high authority positions. If we go through the quotes given above we find –
(cont)
This last one presents the condition that one has had to have been a member of the true church, but it does not say that it applies to all members.
But why don’t you listen to what we say about our doctrine instead of telling us what we believe in? Yes you may see it as the underlying/logical conclusion to the doctrine, but it is not. And yes some people may have and still may believe in this the way you are presenting it, but that is not what is taught in official settings or believed/understood by the majority of the members.
Else I would be correct in saying that you believe that all who claim a belief in Jesus has a free pass to live a life of debauchery and still be saved.
The problem with smithians is that their prophets teach one thing, and 100 years later they BELIEVE something else. The BY and JS quotes are clear. One thing about McConkie, he was true to the ‘former’ prophets, tho he did submit to an edit of mormon doctrine because it was not politically correct at that time.
What is so bad about the smithians is that they won’t admit their prophets weren’t prophets, and that a lot of their teachings were faulty and downright unbiblical.
I’m not afraid to admit that yeah, Luther was wrong on some points. BUT HE NEVER CLAIMED TO BE A PROPHET, only a man who saw errors being taught in the church at the time.
Lutherans revere him, maybe too much, and that is the problem with putting your faith in MEN, and not in CHRIST.
The quotes speak for themselves. If you cant acccept it, that is your problem. I don’t take the words of MEN over the words of revealed scripture, the BIBLE. That is why it is the ultimate yardstick upon which we judge all who say they speak for the Lord.
The smithian prophets dug their own hole, saying that they spoke for God, that if it comes from their mouth, it is the same as the Lord speaking. That rhetoric has toned down in the last 100 years, because the smithians realized that they would not be able to deceive people that they were Christians if they did not whitewash the former prophets teachings.
Your argument is faulty Ralph. Wesley, Luther, Calvin, and the other reformers never claimed to be the ultimate authorities, only to be men who wanted to bring souls to Christ, to the best of their ability. It doesn’t change the formula. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, get baptized and live like He did.
That is the fallacy of the “Creed” arguments, that most mormons here say all Christians genuflect to. You can make the statements, but you can’t refute the BIBLE, which any true Christian uses to judge those who claim to speak for/as God.
It was taught, even if you don’t believe it now.
Grindael,
“It doesn’t change the formula. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, get baptized and live like He did.”
This sounds a bit more than just having faith in Jesus for salvation. In fact, it sounds very much like the LDS teachings except for the ommission of the gift of the Holy Ghost. If you are true to the ‘faith regardless of works’ doctrine then you would have written that the formula was just “Believe in Jesus (fullstop).”
I stand by what I wrote – the people who have the full light of the gospel and a full and proper understanding with witness from the Holy Ghost are the ones who will become the sons of perdition if they apostasise and turn against the truth; Not the average member of the church. And like I said this comes from the quotes that both you and Andy have given, so it was taught that way back in the early days of the church.
But why are you so against it when your new belief of Christianity sends anyone and everyone to hell regardless of circumstances unless they believe the same way as you do. And if someone becomes a Christian but then decides to leave and become athiest and argue that Christianity is false etc, then they too will go to hell. That’s exactly what you are saying we LDS believe. And you are saying that it is spiritual abuse used by the church to keep us in the church – well I guess Christianity can be held accountable for the same spiritual abuse.
Or do those who leave Christianity and fight against it still go to heaven?
The doctrine that enslaved smithians more than any other is that God is an exalted man. I’m still waiting for any mormon poster to explain to me how JS taught that God was a SPIRIT in 1835, and had a body a few years later. It is interesting (to use one of Ralph’s favorite words) that none have commented on this.
1820 supposedly SAW God and Jesus with bodies in the woods/by a stump in a clearing
1835 publishes in the D&C that God is a Spirit, Jesus has a body, and the Holy Spirit is the mind of them both
1831-1844 practices polygamy in secret, seeking ways to justify it
1843 has revelation that God is an exalted man Jesus is an exalted man and the HG is a person of spirit and that they have numerous spirit wives to help populate the worlds they govern(justification for polygamy)
How could he have seen God, when he kept changing his teachings on who/what God was?
The answer is obvious.
All I hear is silence.
Ralph
I’m not the one denying what Christians teach about hell, you are about what smithians teach. If you read ANY of my posts, you know I believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, it helped me get out of smith’s cult.
PART of the doctrine is that those that sin against the HG will become sons of perdition. The other part is that ALL who leave the smithian church will go to outer darkness. The mormon posters here denied it, and attacked falcon. I just quoted your prophets, your doctrine.
I don’t presume to know who will go where. Im not a prophet. I dont need to know. I dont need to make up rules and regulations and doctrines to try to manipulate people to join a church. It is enough to know that if you don’t live and emulate Christ, you will be held accountable for it.
smith is the one who knew all about the afterlife, much more then Paul (by his words). He even has a description of Paul and the way he talked and looked – said he had a whiney voice. He knew everything. Could translate anything,(he did a GREAT job with the Kinderhook plates) was a god (his own words) to his people.
That is what is wrong here. Stand by your empty arguments, they only show how blind you are.
Ralph,
Faith without works is dead. What is different from what you teach is that Christians dont need a bunch of regulations to live by. The Holy Ghost leads us to all truth. In how we live and what we do. Not climbing a ladder of works to gain ‘exaltation’.
The grace of Jesus Christ covers ALL sin. Not selected sins. How it all plays out is for God to judge, not smith, not BY or any of their followers. It is the old argument that hey, were not that different, were Christians too. That statement could not be farther from the truth.
That is why you are confused. True belief in Jesus (fullstop) carries with it intent. (faith) this leads you down the path of righteousness, and helps us to understand ‘be ye therefore perfect’. It is a striving, not to be enforced by any rules, lest any man should boast (like smith).
That is why John explains to us that no one who lives in him keeps on sinning. We are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. That is what is ‘being born of God.”
It all comes out of love, not cursing your enemies, not boasting you are the greatest man who ever lived, not by lying to the face of your own church that you are not practicing polygamy when you are, etc. etc.
That is the beauty of simple, pure Christianity. That is the essence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe it, and it has been confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit.
setfree asked
Honestly, I wish I knew for sure. It must be something to do with free agency and pride.
Its not that free agency is a bad thing, its just the way it is. God has allowed us to choose the gods we worship. In the case of works-based religion, those “gods” are, ultimately, ourselves.
Martin,
I thought christians believed in T.U.L.I.P. which ultimately states that there is no ‘free will’ or ‘free agency’.
setfree and Martin
“what do you suppose the primary thing is that keeps a person from turning to the good news, and instead embracing a system of good works?”
The implication here is that Mormon are “guilty” of this when in fact it has been stated and prven ad nauseaum that LDS memebrs do not “instead” in this scenarion…we actually do Both. We turn to the good news AND believe in good works.
Why do you suppose Evs can not comprehend this simple notion?… Faith and Works are not exclusive, they are inclusive…not Faith-based Not Works-based…but Faith_Works_based.
Martin, to imply that LDS worships “gods” which are ultimately ourselves is absurd. Free-agency and the Ev doctrine, especially Pauline, are not exactly synonymous.
With all the clamouring about “Smithians”, which a few and far-between, on this board, I am more surprised at the large quantity of Pauline Chrisitans, as in those who gather at the feet of Paul as the infallible apostle.
Enki,
The phrase “I thought Christians believe” is pretty monolithic and implies that all Christians believe something. There’s been some discussion regarding Luther and other Church figures and they are basically that; guys who had opinions. No one is claiming that they spoke for God. They offered some thoughts on some topics and Christians take it or leave it as they want.
Mormons make this big deal that they have prophets that have and are speaking for God and then constantly explain that the old coots were just expressing opinions when in fact the people during the time these coggers lived, took their pronouncements as the oracles of God. Mormons are stuck with so many wacky teachings by these guys that at some point the entire Mormon program collapses under the weight of inconsistency and far out nonsense. What would pass muster in the 18th century is laughed off the stage today.
But here’s the trick for Mormons, their faith is feelings based, supposing that (their feelings) are confirmation from God that Mormonism is true. Also they have continuous revelation which can negate all past stupid and ignorant prophetic teachings. Given these twin concepts anything can work. God speaks to them today but changes it tomorrow so what was said doesn’t count any more. Just classify it under having more “light and knowledge”.
Kind of interesting how they can maintain any “assurance” with a constant shifting of the sands. The only thing they know for sure is if they leave the fold they’re going to outer darkness. Oh I forgot, all of that has changed now. Fortunate for today’s cafeteria Mormons.
falcon
what is your Faith “based” on?
is your spiritual awakening one that was intellectual thus making you the “natural” man? (which btw you carry yourself as).
Have you had visions and thus confirmed your Faith?
exactly what happens to Falcon when he reads the scriptures? is it a different happening than when Falcon reads “opinions”?
When you recieve your “confirmation” what, pray tell, form does it manifest?
I gather from your prose that since Mormons are “feeling” based, you are based with something entirely different?
No, Martin is right, I believe. The hardest thing I’ve ever done is recognize God as the complete authority, and take my own Self off the throne of my life. (I was a usurper anyway)
Is “having faith” a work?
To do list: go to church, check! go to temple, check! don’t drink coffee, check! pay tithing, check! have faith, check?
How does one know if one had faith today?
Let me put it another way.
Faith is a decision that brings about true works.
Today, I believe that God is right. This is my faith.
God says “love your neighbor as yourself”. Well, I am mad at my neighbor, because his dog poops on my lawn. However, I have faith that God is right. Therefore, I’m deciding to drop this grudge, and go make friends with my neighbor. Result: I have stopped being miserable on account of dogpoop, and have made a new friend. Why? God blessed me by showing me the best way to do things.
Example 2: God says “pay your tithe, and see if I don’t bless you”. Well, I don’t feel like I can afford to, but I believe God. I feel impressed to give 10% of my check to an evangelistic ministry. Result: Miraculously, my needs are always met, and then some. Why? God blessed me by showing me I can depend on Him to provide for me.
Faith is believing God. Works, if you can call them that, follow. But the thing is, as you go from “faith to faith”, you’re just going from “blessing to blessing”. God gives the call to have faith in Him so that He can bless you and everyone around you in abundance.
The system where you do works to inherit your own glory… it’s not Biblical at all. It’s always been about God, for us (we inherit the good stuff He has).
Faith without works is a dead faith because if you believe God, you see yourself trusting Him, and you see the blessings that come out of it. If you don’t believe Him, you can sit around saying you have faith all day, but never practice it, and never see the blessings that follow.
But I don’t believe you can call faith in itself a “work”. It’s just a first step to more blessings!
On what does the falcon base his faith?
Is our Mormon poster serious? How long have you been on MC and how many times have I at least alluded to this and you still don’t get it? I’m beginning to understand more about the spirit of Mormonism everyday. It really does block a Mormon’s ability to understand. But I guess the Lord’s giving me the opportunity to say it all again. So I will; but I really doubt that our Mormon poster, who has made this request, has spiritual hearing.
I base my faith on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. He is the hope, the assurance I have within me. At twenty-six years of age I responded to the preaching of the gospel and through faith accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. About two months after that I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues (a gift I exercise on a daily basis). Within the past year I have had at least one vision and one significant dream. God has also blessed me with the gift of prophesy which is manifested on certain occasions and in certain settings. I test everything by the Spirit of God and by God’s revealed Word the Bible.
There it is! Now as I write this that Bible verse about not casting your pearls before swine keeps running through my mind. I realize that I’m taking a personal risk here in that our Mormon poster will find some way of mocking or discounting what I’ve just wrote, but I’m taking the chance that some Mormon lurker might read this and that my testimony will play a small part in their seeking the real God and the real Jesus and will find salvation.
falcon
you say
“At twenty-six years of age I responded…”
responded how? emotionally? did you weep? did you exclaim joy?…or did you run the numbers and the Gospel made “sense”?
just trying to understand your criticisms of Mormons, afterall our Faith is “based on emotions” which reveal the truth to us, but you say that is wrong, ergo Mormon emotions must be misleading and false….because you have tested Mormonism by the spirit, no doubt?
However, you seem to avoid using “emotion” in the description of your own faith, which implies, to me and surely the “lurkers”, that you must surely be the Mr. Spock of christianity, right?
You know, it’s weird, but I’ve become less and less emotional (and emotionally swayed) since becoming a Christian.
Here’s an example I hope you hear, Sub.
A married woman starts being attracted to a coworker who is frequently flirty with her.
She has a burning in her bosom toward the man, i.e. she has strong good emotions when he is around.
Being taught that emotions are the key thing to go by, she believes that the Holy Ghost is telling her that this man is for her.
At the same time, she is having worse and worse feelings around her husband. She decides that this is the Spirit telling her that she made the wrong choice, and she needs to get a divorce.
She goes on to get a divorce from her husband and marry the flirty guy at the office. However, neither of them have had any kind of heart change from who they are, and eventually she “feels good” about another man, especially since her new husband is always flirting with married women.
Now, go the Christian route.
A married woman gets good feelings from a flirty guy in the office. At the same time, she gets bad feelings around her husband.
However, she knows that in the Bible, God tells us that our human/fleshly nature often tries to trip us up, and that we should not commit adultery.
She realizes that feelings/emotions come and go, and trusts that God is right. She decides to curtail her friendships, especially any parts that are or can be inappropriate, with guys in the office. She recommits to her relationship with her husband.
The “feelings” the woman gets from trusting God instead of herself are probably not overwhelming. And yet, as the years go by and she is blessed again and again in her heart for having made the right choice, the truth is solidified in her that God is true and faithful. She feels inexpressible gratitude and wants to proclaim Him to everyone.
Important: subject your feelings to the scrutiny of God’s Bible. You can mislead yourself.
Setfree. I have the answer to why some respond to the gospel and others don’t. Unfortunately it is not all that popular in these times, but in the 1st century it was all the rage. After a decline over the next 1300 years it made a resurgence with men like Martin Luther and John Calvin. This is commonly known as the “Reformation”. This system of theology comes from a literal reading of the Bible, keeping in mind that if the Bible is a work of the Holy Spirit it cannot contradict itself. We read clear verses that declare that salvation is entirely a work of God, like John 6, Romans 8 and 9, and Ephesians 1 and 2, for example, and interpret the supposedly “contradictory” free-will verses within their context and within the context of the Bible as a whole to determine their true meaning. The contradictions vanish and we are left with the clear doctrines of election (predestination), calling, regeneration, faith, sanctification, and glorification (the shortcut version to that process is Romans 8:28-30).
I came to Christ believing that I had made the choice and I felt the pressure to “convert” others through my evangelism by persuasion and argumentation. I realized that if Christ Himself coudn’t convert them (Matthew 11:20-30 is a good example) then there had be another mechanism. I also fealt like I could never answer questions about predistination and election, so I began studying the doctrine. Coming to an understanding of the doctrines of grace was kind of like anothe spiritual rebirth. Here is a good article by James White http://vintage.aomin.org/Was Anyone Saved.html .
I don’t doubt the salvation of those who do not adhere to my system of theology for a moment, because a Christian is saved by God’s grace, not by their systematized theology. The early church did not have the writings of the apostles, but were saved nevertheless. If a person loves the Lord and professes Him as their savior (completely) that’s good enough for me.
Did I respond emotionally when I came to Christ? Did I weep, go forward, have a burning in my bosom? No, of course not. My emotions aren’t a barometer of my faith or my commitment to Christ. I was sitting in my bedroom watching Billy Graham, a guy I couldn’t stand and when he gave the invitation to receive Christ I prayed a prayer that went something like, “God I don’t understand any of this but I do accept your Son Jesus as my Savior.” The heavens didn’t open. I didn’t hear a heavenly choir. In fact it was quiet, but I believed and I was saved. This whole idea that you have to have a burning in the bosom to make it real is not only unBiblical, but dangerous in my estimation.
None-the-less our Mormon poster has seemed to miss the point of the discussion but that’s all right I guess. I’ve come to expect that. It’s going right over his head. After all I wrote all he can think to say is “Are you the Dr. Spock of Christianity?” That’s why I mainly write to get the attention of the Mormon readers who come here looking for answers and a way out of Mormonism. Like our friend jackg (an exMormon) says, “The TBMs are at the precontemplative stage.” They aren’t going to get it. Those that are at the “contemplative” stage will get what’s been written and move into a deeper understanding of the things of God and find the peace, contentment and assurance that comes with knowing God and the salvation offered in Christ.
So why do I say that people who contend that you have to have a burning in the bosom in order to be saved is unBiblical and dangerous. Folks that need emotional rewards for their faith tend to run from religious meeting to religious meeting looking for that which they are seeking. The Bible doesn’t say you have to have a burning in the bosom to be saved or even to confirm that you’ve heard from God. Do people have emotional reactions to religious songs, preaching, prayers or even Bible studies. You bet! Is it necessary in order for it to be “real”. Not for me. I’ve been down that road and I’d like to think that in the thirty-seven years I’ve been a Christian, I’ve learned something about religious “enthusiasm” as the revivalist use to call it.
I know Mormons really buy into the idea that they heard from God and it was the real deal because they “felt” something. At the expense of repeating myself, feelings are the results of thoughts. That is, our thoughts drive our emotions. It’s the basis for cognitive rational therapy; teaching people to change their emotions by changing their thoughts. It’s connect to such things as “errors in thinking” which teaches people how to change their lives by changing their attitudes.
It is really tough to disabuse Mormons of the notion that feeling something isn’t necessarily connected to the truth of a matter or does it mean that God is sending a feeling to confirm a thought. Mormons are getting way too much of a kick out of this concept to drop it.
To those who have ears let them hear…….
Hank Saint quoted this from the fictional writings of JS: “2 Nephi 32:5
” For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do”.
It is always disconcerting when LDS use such scriptures while forgetting that there are false spirits. Mormonism is built on the witness of false spirits, and the members begin to believe that their “spiritual” experiences are more authoritative than the Word of God. Whenever someone makes the statement I’m making, they cling to their testimony that they believe is the product of spiritual experiences. So, when Hank Saint condescendingly tries to tell us that we just don’t hear the Spirit or are unable to discern truth from err, it is really an accusation that he should make at himself. I have been in the shoes of an active Mormon, and it’s difficult to admit when you don’t know anything. But, that is what needs to happen. It’s my prayer that Hank Saint and all Mormons will be able to admit that they don’t know anything with regard to their Mormon testimony. Only then will they be free to hear God’s crystal clear voice regarding the truth about Him and His divine plan of redemption.
Peace and Grace…
setfree
horrible anecdote. The married woman who can’t tell the difference between temptation and the Holy Ghost’s promptings is hardly applicable to this discussion and yet another example of the spiritual arrogance of the Ev. You assume we of the LDS are somehow religiously retarded and it is tha attitude that is perhaps the sole reason your “messsage” has no wings.
You are the first Ev to admit they feel dead inside because of the Gospel. So many others are not afraid, Mormon or not, about how they rejoice from the Word of God…i mean seriously, being saved renders you emotionally impotent? God does not spay and neuter our heart…compassion, laughter, sorrow, etc.. all testify of God, and to claim otherwise is close to heresy.
Now i am not saying cater to your emotions, but rather experience them and learn to control the behavior that can arise from them.
The irony being that emotions are usually subordinate for the sake of “reason”…study Plato it suits you.
falcon
you are the only one bringing up “burning in the bosom” again and again…sorry that you have never had the experience of spritual emotion, or if you had you felt the need to squelch it. i wonder why you so carefully chose the word “responded” in your post above.
still no reply to how you “responded”…did you respond by saying “affirmative”?….i do see one emotion in you…..fear.
Setfree,
You said “Faith is a decision that brings about true works.” I and most LDS wholly agree with this statement. We teach that first comes faith and through our faith comes our desire to do the works of God. We teach that we can choose to have faith or not – ie free agency.
But you are at odds with most Evs on this site. Most have said that faith is a gift from God and has nothing to do with our choice/decision.
This then begs the questions – how does one know they have been given this gift of faith? What is the ‘affirmation process’ that proves to a person that their faith is the real deal? If God has chosen who He is giving the gift of faith to and we don’t have a choice in the matter, then why should we bother trying to convert people? Does this mean that God can give the gift to an athiest who then, because they do not know they have that gift because of no spiritual affirmation, is saved and goes to heaven despite what they do (ie faith without works – If God has given them the gift then they do have faith)? Can someone who openly admits that they have faith and accepted Jesus and follows God’s plan all their life, go to hell because God decided not to give that person the gift and so that person is delusional (I am talking about Evs, Born Agains etc here, not LDS or JW, etc)?
subgenius,
Like others who post here have concluded, I have concluded also that you are unable to process information. You either are lacking intellectual horse power, are blinded by the spirit of Mormonism, just enjoy playing games or perhaps all three. The one good thing about this however is I’m seeing daily a distinctive form of Mormon thinking which is a combination of naivete’, immaturity and vapidness.
I think it’s time for you to be shrouded.
I don’t know how falcon ‘responded’ (since you seem to really want a better understanding of response I’ll share) but I responded to God by telling him that I did believe that I was a sinner and needed *him to save me* from that and that I did want him to live in my heart and that I would do my best daily to surrender to his will with guidance of conviction from the Holy Spirit. This was my response when prompt by God. And from that moment I’ve known that I am safe in the Father’s hand. And my testimony bears witness to God’s work in my life. It is a narrative of my life that is uniquely mine. I’m sure that all the Evs here can tell you of the divine sequence of events that lead them to faith in the sovereign God’s words and the evidence of him continuing a good work in their life.
falcon
wow, must have touched a nerve. Good to see you getting “emotional”, you have resorted to insults. Hit dog hollers!
Maturity is hardly a subject for you to lecture, but please, continue your mormon insult posts, i am sure that many of your so-called “lurkers” appreciate it. It seems that you always claim your posts are for the “lurker”, because you either refuse or are unable to reposnd to anyone else here that does not subscribe to the Book of Falcon. Again, you sit in the cave preaching to shadows on the wall.
There, now we have traded.
Lather….rinse….repeat
rvales
the point of falcon’s “response” was that he is criticiizing the role of emotion in religion. Apparently he subscribes to the Platonic philosophy of subordinateing emotion because it interferes with “reason”. However, a mature adult knows that emotions can be managed, and Our Heavenly Father gave us the capacity for feelings to experience them, not to squelch them. Falcon purposely denies his own emotion on this point because it would contradict the insult he constantly slings at Mormons. Many Ev posters have great insights here, and many are poen and honest about themselves and their faith, however, some are not.
I respect your “response” but my point was at the heart of your (and falcon’s) “experience”…did you feel anything at that momment? does emotion contribute anything to your religious experience or is the sum of Ev theology calculated? referenced? pragmatic?, thus rendering one to be robotic, a condition far from God’s intention, in my opinion.
Do not be confused, i am not advocating that emotions should steer the cart, but they are on the map.
sub,
Members of the LDS church over-estimate the value of emotions, and for good reason, they are taught to do so. In fact, they misuse a Bible verse to act as though they have Bible authority for their wrong thinking/teaching. Check it out:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-happiness/how-can-i-know-this-is-true
The LDS website says “These feelings from the Holy Ghost are personal revelation to you that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true”
See the verse they’re using? Galatians 5:22–23. Is this Bible passage talking about feelings you get from the Holy Spirit to tell you if something is true?
BY NO MEANS!
A quick way to see that: if these “fruits of the spirit” were feelings you get to let you know of truthfulness, then meekness and temperance would be feelings, wouldn’t they?
Paul isn’t talking about feelings you get from the Holy Spirit, to convince you of truthfulness. He’s talking about what living with the Holy Spirit inside you produces in your life and character. Makes a lot more sense now, doesn’t it?
By the way, I took my analogy from three different Mormon stories (people I know) that had basically the same plot. Woman gets good feeling about man in ward/class/work, leaves husband for “better” man.
Ralph,
(and Martin especially as well, since we were on this subject the other day, and I saw you write on it on the other thread)
My pastor said something interesting this morning. He said that you can go to the Bible and read, and come away feeling condemned. He compared it to Jesus’ feet washing of his disciples. He said symbolically, Jesus washed their feet just as we need to be washed daily with the living water (the Word), but afterwards, we must dry off our feet with the linen towel (Jesus’ Righteousness). Meaning, if you don’t remember when reading the Bible (as a believer) that you are forgiven, redeemed, paid for, you can misread the Bible and see yourself as condemned. Thoughts Martin?
Anyway, Ralph, like Martin said, it’s both. Every good thing comes from God; but we have to receive it. He gives us faith; we have to receive it. When we do, He is able to add to our faith. The more we receive, the more He gives.
But you can’t have faith in “whatever” can you? It has to be faith in what God has said.
People don’t believe the Bible because they don’t want to; not because it’s not true. Ralph, if you’ll read it, I’ll happily buy for you and send you a couple of terrific books. One is “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist”. The authors make a terrific case for the Bible as God’s Word to mankind.
So God says something, you take it (believe it). God gives something, you take it (He’s the ultimate Giver).
It builds upon itself. More and more taking from you, more giving from Him.
There is nothing built into His system by which you work for your rewards or your own glory. It’s not a system that seems right to man. But it’s glorious
Sub, it seems like emotions do steer the cart for LDS afterall you encourage people to pray for a feeling that lets them know that BoM is true. Isn’t that following a feeling.
In regards to what I felt…I felt conviction of my sin and my desperation for a savior. This sounds far from the warm and fuzzies that Mormon’s report feeling. So tell me, how did you know that what you felt was from God? How did you test that spirit? Do you believe that Satan can come as a spirit of light? Do you believe that God can give us over to our delusions? Do you believe that our hearts are deceptive? Do you believe that man has the capability to achieve some state of righteousness?