An email from a former Mormon (I’ll call “XM”) arrived in my inbox. He was disturbed over a video he found on You Tube. In the video, (now) LDS President Thomas Monson instructs LDS missionaries on how to find investigators (people interested in learning about the Mormon Church with a eye toward membership).
XM wrote,
“…listen closely at who he wants the missionaries to target. First he tells them how to ‘set the stage’ [with members] by using ‘loaded language’ (Mind control tactic #6 of 8 Lifton) and addressing the ‘sacred science’ (Mind Control tactic #5 of 8, Lifton). Then he goes on to [clarify] who he wants the missionaries to talk to by asking the member family, ‘first, who do you know who has recently lost a loved one; second, who do you know who has welcomed a newly born child to the family; third, who do you know who has recently moved into the neighborhood; fourth, who do you know who has trouble coping with their teenage children?’ All four of the examples have a common thread, all the people are in a vulnerable position and have just had an emotional or challenging experience happen in their life. Doesn’t it seem odd that the LDS organization that claims that it represents God would use [these] predatory practices?”
If you can get past the strong language he uses, XM raises a point worthy of discussion. Note that Mr. Monson talks about the “best way for a Mission to achieve its optimum productivity.” He says it won’t happen if the missionaries casually ask members for referrals. The missionaries need to find people who are at a vulnerable point in their lives in order to be successful.
XM wrote,
“I call these predatory practices because Monson does not ask for people who are: one, Stable in their Jobs; two, have a stable family life; three, who do you know who has raised their family in an honest fashion; and four, who do you know who is looking for the truth. Why would Monson want the missionaries to go after people who have experienced a major change in their life? We all become weak from time to time, emotional stress tends to take its toll, this is when the missionaries strike.
“The reason is surprisingly simplistic. People who have experienced one or more of the life changing or challenging events Monson describes are generally more open to hearing language that is best described as cult like language. Robert Lifton and Alan Hassan describe this technique as ‘Love Bombing.’ Love bombing is basically killing them with kindness. It is easy to conclude that someone who is having an emotional event in their life, who is feeling lonely, or confused by a situation, would be open and more receptive to a cult’s advances.”
When I first watched this video of President Monson, I thought, “Well, hurting people need the Good News and hope that Christ can bring into their shaky lives.” But then I realized that Mr. Monson is not suggesting that hurting people be ministered to in the name of the Lord. He’s not suggesting that the LDS missionaries bring them the hope and peace of Christ. He’s suggesting that these people be used to achieve optimum productivity for the Mission.
XM explained,
“It is completely appropriate to reach out to families and individuals who are experiencing life altering events; as a matter of fact it is important to be the friendly neighbor and friend. Most people help out or lend a shoulder to cry on out of the goodness of their heart. The difference here is that Monson has the intention of converting those families and individuals. The perceived concern for the family or person is conditional, the missionaries have an ulterior motive; that is to baptize. Jesus died for our sins, with no strings attached. It’s just disheartening that the organization that claims to be the ‘one true church’ has to resort to manipulative tactics that prey on people who are already having a tough time.”
People in the midst of these life-changing circumstances are tender. They’re afraid. They’re frustrated. They’re at the end of their ropes or feeling a heavy weight of responsibility. They don’t really need answers to questions about where they came from or why they’re here. They don’t need pressure to join the “One True Church” with all of its burdens piled on top of their already overloaded backs. They need their burdens relieved, their fears calmed, their hopes renewed.
They don’t need to become a statistic that allows an LDS mission to “achieve its optimum productivity.” They need Jesus–the one and only answer for their souls.
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me,
for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.”
Matthew 11:28-29
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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My husband and I had the missionaries over for dinner recently. They did not ask us for referrals, they asked for a news paper to look through the obituaries. When they left I told my husband that it is wrong to prey on someone going through the grief of loosing a loved one. My husband, who has been a missionary and works for the church, replied, “No! You get people to see the truth in anyway possible.” He thought it was a great idea and wished someone had thought of it while he was on a mission. It ticks me off to no end that the idea came from Pres. Monson.
On a more personal note:
I have a husband with a genetic disease that is potentially deadly and we only found out about it a few years ago and now a few months ago we found out our son has it. Our sons case is a lot worse than his fathers and I pray everyday that he will even make it to adulthood. The thought of someone preying on the grief and loneliness I sometimes feel over my situation is unconscionable.
Plus, this is not to be rude to anybody, the whole eternal family thing does not make one iota of a difference to me. In the case of being in the situation of having a child that could bleed to death internally at any time I do not think about how being an eternal family is wonderful and boy am I glad that I have that to look forward to.
Satan says: “Come to me, all you who need help, because I promise big and wonderful things. But I will indeed laden you down with more and more commandments, principles, ordinances to do. Covenants that are impossible to keep. And I will take everything from you eventually, including your life with God”
J.J.M.
Your post was not out here when I wrote mine (though it looks like it was), or I would have addressed you first.
I am sorry about what is going on in your family, and hope you will stick around and share your thoughts. God bless you, wherever and whoever you are.
In con games these “prospects” are known as “marks”. There’s also the “bait and switch” used in some sales games. The mark/prospect is lured in by an incredible deal but the deal really isn’t available for purchase. The “any means to get them to hear and accept the truth” approach will come to a bad end unless the prospect can be hooked emotionally through fear, intimidation, loss of approval or some other dishonest means.
This article really tells us a lot about the character of Mormonism. First and foremost; if something walks, acts and talks like a cult, it’s a cult. The game in Mormon cultism is, find vulnerable people and lie to them by omission by not being up front about what the beliefs and teachings of the Mormon church are.
Andy Watson has a friend who lived out in the SLC area for years and he and his wife would get invited over to some Mormons home for supper. Just like clockwork, the missionaries would just happen to be in the neighborhood and stop by. It got to be a standing joke for Andy’s friend. I had a buddy that was out on one of the South Pacific Islands when he was in the Peace Corps years ago. The Mormons had the only gym and he liked to play basketball. They invited him until it became clear he wasn’t a prospect for Smith’s cult. He was only valuable to them as a prospect, not as a person.
And BTW, this Monson gives me the creeps! Put together his vocal mannerisms, the dark back drop and the dishonesty of what he’s suggesting and it comes across as Darth Vader unmasked! Whew, do Mormons get a steady diet of this stuff? No wonder people are fleeing Mormonism in droves!
Well everyone, I really wish I could stand in judgment of Monson on this, but I can’t, because I have heard the same techniques espoused by evangelical pastors like Rick Warren. The only difference being that evangelicals who use meeting or empathising with a persons’ “felt needs” prior to leading them in the “sinner’s prayer” to “accept Jesus into their hearts” is that generally they want to see people converted to Christ. The sales pitch is that Jesus will meet all of your needs, heal your broken marriage, heal you of addictions, give you the abundant life, etc. Forgiveness of sin is mentioned only in passing on the road to saying the prayer. Their motive really is to see people saved, and they believe that once a person says “the prayer” or “asks Jesus into their heart” they have “won a soul for Jesus”. In my experience most Christians who use these means have a low view of sin and the gospel, but are still well meaning.
I was an elder of a church several years ago and the pastor got on a church growth kick. He started looking to the world’s methods of growing the church like mass marketing church flyers, door hangers, passing out gift bags door-to-door, etc. People were encouraged to make lists of friends that they could invite to church. In one elder’s meeting we were sitting in a restaurant discussing church growth and revenue strategies. I stopped the pastor and said, “If I was an outsider listening to this conversation I would have no idea we were a church. I could just as easily believe we were discussing how to multi-level market a new vitamin supplement.” His answer? “Oh no! The more I study the world the more I see that they are turning to the church for answers on how to grow their companies!” That was the beginning of the end at that church for me. I have seen churches locally give first-time visitors bags of Starbucks coffee beans in an effort to get them to hear the gospel and become members of the church.
Different goal, but same methods?
J.J.M., your story breaks my heart. It’s obvious that you are looking for answers. Why else would you be here if you are not arguing in favor of Monson’s tactics?
The only thing I can offer you is the truth in love. Sickness, genetic disease, and death are the result of sin. Not necessarily your sin, and in the case of your son’s illness, definitely not as a result of his personal sin. It is a result of the sin of our federal head, the first man, Adam. All people born in Adam’s line suffer death (Romans 5:12). All people born in Adam’s line are corrupt and sin by nature. We are not sinners because we have sinned, we sin because we are sinners. And I’m sure you know that sin is the breaking of God’s commandments: Do not worship idols, Do not blaspheme, Do not disobey your parents, Do not steal, Do no not lie, etc. We are all guilty and deserve God’s just judgment for those sins. Unfortunately we cannot pay the penalty for those sins unless we suffer God’s punishment, which means eternal separation from Him in Hell. But one person did pay the penalty for all of our sins, and that is Jesus Christ. Since it is nearly Christmas I will quote what the angel told Joseph in Matthew 1:21, “And she will bring forth a Son and you will call His name Jesus (Yeshua, which means “salvation”), for He will save His people from their sins.” Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say Jesus saves from sin after all we can do. It doesn’t say if we do such and such and join a church. The promise is that He will save His people from their sins. How is that salvation granted? By believing in the Biblical Jesus and God, and that He payed the penalty for your sins. Listen to Jesus’ words in John 5:24, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” Eternal families is a lie, eternal life (maybe as a family by God’s grace) through Jesus Christ is true.
(cont for J.J.M.) You are a mother and you worry about your son and would do all things for him. But in this one instance be selfish. Worry about your own life first, then let God take care of the rest. Cast your worries and your cares on Him because He loves you and died for your sins, then pray to a God that can do all things for your son and for your husband. There is no promise of healing, but there is a promise of eternal life that is free for the taking to those who ask. Listen to what Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4:7-14,
This promise is true, and there are many former LDS who post here that will attest to that.
I will be praying earnestly for you and your family.
J.J.M.
though i can border on cynicism…this is actually skepticism, bordering on crying “foul”..
I am curious how the obituaries would be of any help…addresses are not published…missionaries would be hard pressed to find out who was recently deceased in their “boundary”.
You see given the extent that the Ev will fabricate and manipulate facts to suit their purpoose, i am somewhat hesistant to accept the sincerity of your “anecdotal” evidence.
However, if what you say is good and honest, then accept my deepest apologies.
liv4jc, thanks for doing a superb job at what I wanted, but felt inadequate, to do. (present the gospel). prayin for this…
liv4jc,
I was out snowshoeing thinking about Monson’s tactics. Twenty-five years ago I went through the “Evangelism Explosion” training that was developed by D.James Kennedy via the Presbyterian church he pastored in Coral Gables, Fla. The emphasis was on providing “seekers” with a clear presentation of the Gospel with an invitation to pray and receive Christ if they were amenable to doing so. There was never an attempt or even any training on prospecting that I can remember. The point of the training was to prepare “trainees” to know how to share their faith in a straight forward unambiguous manner. From my study of Church history in the U.S., bringing people to a decision point was something developed/emphasized by Charles Finney in the 19th century. He said, “I preached a course of sermons designed to convict the people of sin as deeply and as universally as possible.”……”On the evening of his fourth Sunday at the Tabernacle, as described in the Memoirs, Finney suggested to the pastor, the Rev. Dr. John Campbell, that he would like to hold a special meeting for inquirers following the evening service……After preaching a short sermon that evening, Finney called upon ‘all who were anxious for their souls, and who were then disposed immediately to make their peace with God,’ to attend the inquiry meeting. After dismissing the congregation, Finney relates in his Memoirs, ‘Dr. Campbell nervously and anxiously looked out of the window; to see which way the congregation would go. To his ‘great astonishment,’ he discovered that no less than fifteen or sixteen hundred of them were heading directly for the assigned room. While Dr. Campbell looked on in ‘amazement’, Finney pressed the inquirers to lay down ‘their weapons of rebellion’ and ‘accept Jesus as their only Redeemer’.
There’s nothing in the Bible that suggests that in order to be saved someone has to say the sinners prayer or walk down an aisle or do anything in particular.
(cont)
The Bible tells us that we have to have faith; and who and what we have to have our faith in. It’s necessary, in my view, that the unregenerated person needs to see the hopelessness of their condition; and that their sin separates them from God. Admitting that, then they need to see that Jesus’ finished work on the Cross is their only hope for salvation.
But for a Mormon, their is one more task. They need to understand who God and Jesus are. The Mormon god cannot provide sinners with salvation. On the contrary, the Mormon god and jesus, have no power to save because in reality, they don’t exist.
Mormonism clings to a form of godliness, but it’s an empty shell of a religion because it doesn’t recognize the One, Only, Eternal, Everlasting, never changing God. Only God can offer salvation as a free gift to those who recognize Him and what He did for us through His Son Jesus Christ. Receiving God’s offer of eternal life through faith, brings us peace with (God) and the assurance of salvation.
Growing up in SLC as a very young child. My Dad was called down to the old 8th Ward (9th Ward 2nd Ward,I don’t remember which one) to consult on something and I happened to be with him. On that day Thomas Monson happened to be their too. I was introduced to him and I’m sure the reason I remember it is because he was so genuinly warm and friendly to a little kid. Years later this was renforced when I was a teen and a friend of mine invited me to a scout function at the Liberty Wells Stake Center in central SLC. Thomas Monson happened to drop by, not in any offical capacity, I shook his hand and told him it was nice to see him again. My thinking at the time was there was no way he would remember meeting a kid some 6 or 7 years earlier. I was wrong. I remember his robust laugh and warm friendly manner as he explained what he was doing on that day. Over the years growing up in The Mecca of Mormonism I had similar encounters with numerous GA’s and their families. My experiences were much the same. These were not just good people, they were exceptional human beings. My childhood Ward leaders were to this day, some of the finest people I have ever met. My disconnect from Mormonism began with a thought I had when I was 8 or 9 while sitting in Sunday school. The notion that there was no human being between me and my maker, and an uneasy feeling that something was wrong with the things I was being taught at church. I know nothing but love for these people and I pray I never lose that. ( I’ll make an exception here for Sub) lol
cont, Once again we confront yet another instance where good people can dish out seemingly endless bad docterine, policy and advice My point: LDS lurkers, being an exceptional human being doesn’t mean your religion isn’t false.
“Get em when their down”. I have seen this my whole life. I haven’t heard of the obits being used, but Sub with his head perpetually in the sand pretenting like this couldn’t possibly be the case is as disegenuoius as his apology. BTW Sub, your whole religion is based on “anecdotal” evidence.
Hey mod please fix bfwjr’s spellin
Aaron, I want to thank you for the kind person you are, and all the work you do. Many may not see this, but I do, and wish there were people like you around when I was a lost and confused return missionary trying to cope with my church’s lies, thuggery, threats, bigotry, racial hatred, & most of all historical tampering & the hiding of the truth.
I address this not to the frequent LDS posters that come on this blog to confuse issues, change the subject, distract from the truth & insult and denigrate christians & x-m’s from clearly stating the obvious and why smith’s church is full of heresies and lies.
To the Mormons,
I implore those who have questions to read your history! Did you know that one of your greatest writers on doctrine Bruce R.McConkie stated that Brigham Young taught false doctrine?
“Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the (Polygamist) cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true…I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls…I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is… If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.” (Letter to Eugene England, 1981)
So, (says he) believe in only the ‘standard works’. Why then, as SO MANY of the LDS posters have continued to rant about: have prophets? The LDS ‘Manifesto’ is a good example of this, and why there are so many of these polygamist cults McConkie makes reference to. (I Use this as an example, not to go off on a discussion of Polygamy)
The manifesto directly contradicts the teaching in the D&C that polygamy is an eternal principle that must be practiced. “all those who have this law revealed unto them MUST OBEY the same…” (D&C 132:3)
Can missionaries or any mormon make a case against this? NO. The practice was discontinued because it was against the law. The smithians had the option to move out of the United States, but they did not. Why? If this COMMANDMENT from God takes precedence, then why did they stay and disobey the LORD? Why did Joseph F. Smith CONTINUE plural marriages (for a short time) after the Manifesto?
What then, are mormons to base McConkie’s observations on, if their ‘prophets’ even contradict and give commandments in direct violation to their standard works? If statements made by mormon prophets are not to be heeded, again why have them? If they are in direct communication with God, would they not know his nature, and who he is? How could BY have taught that Adam was God then, and how can later Prophets and Apostles be justified in saying he did not know God if he was a Proptet?
Taken logically, their system falls apart. God is not the author of confusion. This must be made known to the missionaries that come to visit, and they MUST be made to answer these questions.
Missionaries present a ‘watered down’ version of Mormonism, that when put to the test, fails miserably. McConkie is using the same logic that Christians use about the Bible. The way mormons get around this is to say the Bible is ‘incomplete’ and that ‘many plain and precious things’ were not taught. Since Young taught Adam-God, is this perhaps a ‘plain and precious truth’ that somehow got left out of the Bible? And by what right do those that came after him have to call it false doctrine? Which prophet is right?
We have what we need. It is all there in the Bible. It is centered on Jesus, not joe smith, brigham young and their heresies. Believe in Jesus and the Bible and use McConkie’s logic and end it there. Throw off the chains of Mormonism and come back to Jesus and the true Way.
Investigate and ask why Monson use PR tactics to that do not get to the meat of their cult. For more information go to: http://www.mrm.org/. Bill McKeever, Aaron, Sharon & the rest have done an excellent job of collecting all you need to know.
Again, thank you Aaron and MRM.ORG.
D James Kennedy once wrote that effective evangelism requires friendly relationships…
all too often we see the self-proclaimed Ev ignore this advice and subscribe to the more tyrannical approach of degradation, insult, and inflammatory rhetoric. This reveals the true nature of their message, and the true nature of the messenger they serve.
You see even DJK understood that evangelism did not end with the “witness”, but it was actually based on a loving discipling relationship. This crucial aspect is lost on the typical Ev poster, and the phantom lurker is sensible enough to discern this detour off the path shown by Jesus.
How does one become a “fisher of men”? By slapping at the water and mocking the fish? What manner of bait is used? where are the best fishing holes?….is the same cynicism applied to Jesus who is blatantly trying to get people “on the hook”?
DJK certainly understod how important the “numbers” were and he was never shy in discussing the importance of not just conversion, but attendance.
As many aggressors here prove the warning of Paul about the wiles of the devil. Look about these posts and discover who speaks from their heart and who yelps from their belly. The proud and boastful reveal themselves here and they offer little more than vitriol.
1 Cor 13:4
for the misled Ev
Hebrews 3:13 Hebrews 10:24
and for my Mormon friends
Ephesians 6:10-18
that being said…how does he average Ev poster here recognize their own missionary opportunities?
Whenever I have been involved in evangelism and outreach it has been to bring people to a decision regarding faith in Jesus Christ. That’s what Christianity is all about. Methodists don’t try to get people to come to belief in John Wesley. Lutherans don’t try to get people to believe in Martin Luther. Likewise with any of the other Christian denominations.
But belief in Mormonism is predicated on coming to faith in Joseph Smith. Hymns are sung to him. In the view of Mormons, Smith has become a god. A Mormon missionary training video I viewed urged the trainees to take people to “that little grove of trees” where according to legend Smith saw God the Father and Jesus, which BTW was quite a thing because the Father doesn’t have a body.
In Christianity we take people to the Cross where Jesus died and shed His blood for our sins. Jesus or Joseph? Mormons choose Joseph and make Jesus an add-on after thought. Jesus doesn’t even make number one in the Mormon four or five point belief system. As Christians we understand that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. There isn’t anyone else who can save us from our sins. There isn’t any man standing between believers and God the Father. There is One who delivers us into the arms of the Father, Jesus the Christ.
To put some things in context:
“Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for JUDGEMENT to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:12-18)
Put on the full armor of God so that you can TAKE YOUR STAND against the devil’s schemes. (Ephesians 6:11)
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will FEARLESSLY make known the mystery of the gospel…. (Ephesians 6:19)
“Them that sin REBUKE before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20)
Jesus entered the temple area and DROVE OUT all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.’” (Matthew 21)
“And when he had looked round about on them with ANGER, being grieved for the HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand.”—Mark 3:5.
“I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you CANNOT ENDURE evil men, and you PUT THEM TO THE TEST, those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them [to be] false; (Revelation 2:2)
grindael,
The Bible gives us one consistent test to determine the true from the false apostles. Are they right, accurate, true especially in their predictions. Mormon prophets are wrong on all points. They don’t even take a shot at predicting the future any more. Their proclamations are mainly generic exhortations that anyone could make. According to McConkie’s rather confused condemnation of BY Adam-God doctrine, BY must be condemned. Some prophet. One confused mess this Mormonism.
setfree, thank you for the nod. It is encouraging.
Sub, you kill me. Look inside your own heart before you begin lambasting the Christian who minister here. You expect them to meekly crawl into a corner and beg, “Please be my friend.” As you mock and twist the message of the gospel? I have tried being kind to you, and your response is always full of vitriol and spite. It was lovely how you attacked J.J.M., then offered a paultry apology if you had judged her incorrectly.
Did you see any mockery from me in my heartfelt presentation of the gospel? I don’t know her, but I care for her, and I let her know it. I didn’t sugar coat the message of sin and judgment in an effort to woo her into my church. I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelesness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price, not only those who work hard enough, tithe enough, pray enough, and act perfect enough. Why didn’t you offer her a few words of encouragement about how the “one true church” had the answers to her problems? You had a perfect opportnity as her “brother” to offer her condolences or counsel. Or is the message, “Quit your whining and listen to the priesthood! No true smithian would expose their doubts. The church is true no matter what you uncover or how you feel about it.”
Your true colors really came out in the last thread, and your true heart really comes out in this one.
I don’t have a problem with looking for situations in which a person can deliver an important message.
I think of it as “payload”. In most delivery systems (e.g. the Space Shuttle) the “payload” makes up only a small component of the whole. Its a crude metaphor, but it means you’ve got to do a lot of work before you get to “deliver” the message you want; you’ll spend a seemingly inordinate amount of effort building the delivery system.
The equivalent in Pres. Monson’s message above would be what he terms “the penetrating questions: firstly who do you know who has recently lost a loved one…”
What I’m thinking, is that all this missionary effort goes towards the delivery of these “penetrating questions”, so they must be of central importance.
However, these penetrating questions of central importance throw the whole burden of action onto the member family to search their personal contacts for people in vulnerable or stressful situations, which is questionable of itself.
Doesn’t anyone care that these vulnerable people might actually need something other than a cheesy message about joining a church so that they can tithe and press their freinds and relations to join too.
Stepping back, I’m dismayed at Monson’s choice of payload. What he has delivered is a program of micro-management and social engineering. Where is the work of Christ in this?
Contrast Jesus and the NT authors, who set the pattern for Christian teaching. They kept their precious payload tightly focussed on Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).
If I found myself at the crucial moment with a penetrating question, I think I’d echo Jesus in Matt 16:15-16
Surely this is the starting point for ALL church programs, including those that seek to help people in vulnerable situations.
Oh, look! That’s what Jesus goes on to say in Matt 16:18-19
Martin
“family to search their personal contacts for people in vulnerable or stressful situations”
how is having a newborn child a “vulnerable or stressful situation”? Sure, it can be exhausting, but hardly the scenario you are portraying.
“..cheesy message about joining a church so that they can tithe and press their freinds and relations to join too”
once again we see the Ev capacity to infer and presume facts that are not in evidence, especially when it suits their “message”.
President Monson never once mention, not implies, membership in the above video.
What he does say is “comfort” “teach” and “fellowship”.
President McKay once said “every member a missionary”…this is a peculiar message…because for Mormons, missionary work is a 24/7 occupation….but the “mission” is fulfilled in many many ways.
The way we live our daily lives is the most important mission we serve. We consider our “example” to be the best missionary tool there is…and our mission is not all about tithing and names on a roll (quite cynical these days is ‘de la Brisabane’)….our mission is to bring the Gospel to those who need it, those who have not heard it, and to those who would celebrate it.
The Ev tries so hard, so desperately hard, to cast nefarious shadows over the Mormon church are those that try to kill the church. They may stab at the body but they can not even prick the soul…for though they attack the body of the LDS church its soul is steeped in the Gospel. Do not be distracted by their doublespeak…remember Matthew 10:28
For if there are any “lurking” about on this board know that any fear these mongerers is not real, the only fear you may feel is because there is someone in this world that does not want you to find the truth, there is someone that will always “accuse”…recognize Hebrews 10:32-35
good luck
Hebrews 3:12
2 Cor 5:11
I wanted to let subgenius know that I in no way meant for my comment to be taken as a non-mormon trying to fool someone with my remarks. I am LDS.
Thank you for saying sorry in case you were wrong about me, I appreciate it.
I thank you setfree.
And liv4jc…
Thank you for all your kind words, especially these… (they made me cry)
“Did you see any mockery from me in my heartfelt presentation of the gospel? I don’t know her, but I care for her, and I let her know it. I didn’t sugar coat the message of sin and judgment in an effort to woo her into my church. I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelesness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price, not only those who work hard enough, tithe enough, pray enough, and act perfect enough. Why didn’t you offer her a few words of encouragement about how the “one true church” had the answers to her problems? You had a perfect opportnity as her “brother” to offer her condolences or counsel…”
The last part is true also…
I still am expected to suck up my grief and go to church every Sunday teach my class in YW and act like all is right in my world. This is not all the leaders fault, they asked my husband if he wanted out of his calling to deal with himself and now his son. He said No. Everyone forgot to ask me how I felt…
As a matter of fact no one has talked to me about any part of my family situation. Not two years ago when my husband was diagnosed and not now when my son has been diagnosed.
I just realized this. As my daughter says, “Sudden realization sucks.”
The message of “comfort,” which is the message one would expect a caring individual to deliver in these circumstances, is the message that is missing from President Monson’s instructions. Mr. Monson calls for “contacting,” “teaching,” and “fellowshipping,” not “comforting.”
Furthermore, as Mr. Monson is calling for the achievement of optimum productivity for the Mission, it is no stretch at all to recognize that the goal of the “contacting, teaching and fellowshipping” is in line with the missionary’s purpose: “Baptizing and confirming the people you teach is central to your purpose,” says Preach My Gospel (page 9).
liv4JC said: “I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelessness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price…”
Amen brother. Amen!
A guy like sub isn’t going to be won by any approach, imho.
J.J.M.
I’m so glad to see you’re still here. I don’t know if you’ve seen it so far… but the Christians out here are trying to share what they have that brings them so much peace and joy, and it has nothing to do with any organization, no one here will ever benefit from what they’re selling (well, not financially or whatever, but definitely in their hearts!).
I was telling someone recently… when my mom (who had been super Mormon) realized what the Bible was saying, and figured out that “the church” is a load a crock, she had already taught all of her kids Mormonism all of their lives. But she was brave enough to call us up and say “I don’t believe that Joe Smith is a prophet.” When she called me, I fell through the floor. My world, after that, the entire thing, crashed down. And it was the beginning of everything wonderful. It was just what God had to do to get all the crap out of my life, and rebuild me.
He is the most awesome thing you could ever find in this life, and HE WILL HELP
love to you
As long as you are considered a “prospect” for conversion or reactivation these guys are really friendly, well as friendly as stalkers can be. Once you show that you have no interest in the mind control cult they are peddling they become phantoms. Having lived in Utah, and moved around, Mormons always show up first to meet and greet. Once they get the drift that your an apostate or just not interested, they vaporize. After a couple of months you couldn’t pick em out of a Police lineup. Mormon lurkers confused about their own weird behavior, please see http://www.watchman.org/na/assist3.htm
haha.. that’s true. when i moved back to my home town, the church (knowing full well that i am not only ex-mormon but studiedly so) did not send any friendly troops over (who may have listened) but just the local bishop of my “ward”. He paid one visit, saying “anything we can do, just call on us”, and a month later, when I saw him, he acted like he couldn’t remember my name. No one else has ever showed up. Including the missionaries. We’re black-listed over here, it’s too bad. But they don’t want me engaging any “innocents” in conversation that might lead them to knowing something meaningful. lol
Sharon
my apologies for the error in “transcription”…it is indeed “contact”….i withdraw “comfort” from above statement.
yes, baptism and confirmation are central to the purpose…but the purpose is not membership as the cynic would assume.
Membership is important but Faith trumps that and a Faith based on truth even trumps that. Perhpas “Preach My Gosel” should be explored further, I too have a copy.
For now i suppose we should sit back and let the Ev carry on this wonderful conversation they are having while they stroll down memory lane.
poor persecuted Ev fro mthe big bad Mormon conspiracy machine…choo choo
“membership is important”
yes, it it of utmost importance. whether any LDS reader/poster believes this personally, it IS part of the current doctrine.
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
if you go to the above page, and click on the word “ordinance” in the text, you’ll see this quote:
“Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation.”
What kind of baptism? Click on ‘baptism’ on the same page, or go to the glossary and read the description there. Baptism into the LDS church.
Putting the two together: Baptism into the LDS church IS ESSENTIAL FOR SALVATION.
see… no more trying to fool the people
setfree
I have seen that the Christians are being sincere in sharing the gospel with me. I have been reading all of the comments that were left, whether they were for me or not.
You need to know that the things people have written are not falling on deaf ears. I would not be here if I did not have questions. I have never been on any site that the church would disapprove of in my life, until recently. I was raised to stay away from beliefs and people that would cause my to have any doubts.
I have started viewing sites like this one not because I doubted my faith but because I have had lots of questions that have plagued me since my husband’s diagnosis. It is the answers to my questions that I am finding are leading me not to be stronger in my faith but away from it. I have always found until now that all trials in my life have made me a stronger mormon but not this time. (AND yes, I have had hard trials before now; including the death of my mother when I was 18. So, it is not that this trial is harder just that it made me think more.)
I wanted to know:
Where do all my plans sit now? Will I still be able to serve a mission with my spouse? How do I feel about all the years I have served in the church (14)? Did I waste years that I could have been spending with my family? Are people always asking for me to do to much? Why don’t I ever say no? Why is my welfare and that of my families not as important as serving everyone else?
then came the big ones…
Are we worthy enough for the celestial kingdom? Have I done enough? and more important did I feel my husband was worthy? (do not get me wrong he is the best man I know) Could he be good enough to create a world with? Could any of us? Did I want to be responsible for a people?
(continued)
The thing I realized from asking these questions is that as good as I may be I am no where near qualified to sit in judgment of any person. I, my self, am judgmental, selfish, and have a heart (that I used to think was pure, as in Jacob 3:1-3) that is not pure. It is an awful thing to see in yourself, all the things you think you are not, but it is the thing that is leading me to realize there are answers out there and I just do not have them, not get anyways.
Thanks
J.J.M. I got chills reading that. Like I can actually see God’s call on your life. I know how precious it is to see yourself as God sees you (not good enough) and then to realize that He has been waiting to free you from the burden of trying to be. It’s amazing, the walk into His Grace, through Jesus, who says “there is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION”. It’s so freeing, so beautiful to understand that He (Jesus) WAS THE ONLY ONE EVER to be good enough, because He is a part of THE ONLY GOD… and that the God who made us is big enough to understand, to have it already seen it beginning to end, and to have been leading you to where you are today, so that you will come to Him and offer the only thing you can… yourself, just as you are, as a trade in for the Salvation He already paid for in Jesus.
All of the sudden, when you go to the Almighty God, and ask Him to let Jesus’ blood cover you (meaning, that His payment on the cross apply to you becaues you are going to trust in Him completely) too, you find yourself in a position of FORGIVENESS FIRST, a position where every mistake you make is forgiven. It is in that place that you joyfully are able to love GOd the way He intended, and begin to live in His presence.
I can hear it in what you are saying… I’m shouting Hallelujah over here that you seem to be on the verge of being free in Christ…
Sub,
Where are you getting your info on the late D. James Kennedy?
Well, I have been trying to barge in here and give my two cents, but my posts have been erased twice, so I’ll stop barging with so much content. Setfree you are doing an amazing job in witnessing how God worked on your life and brought you out of the LDS church. Your witness is not inadequate.
J.J.M., Jesus is calling you. Setfree is right. It is plain as day. You have already confessed here openly that you don’t know the answers and that you are undeserving of God’s mercy because of the sins in your life. Take that same confession to Christ, and ask Him to become Lord of your life. You don’t need to know all the answers now. In the moment you do that you will pass from death to life and be born from above (John 3:3). You have God’s promise on that. Understanding can wait, we all started out as confused as new born babies.
JJM,
Although I do not know what exactly you are going through, I can empathise with you as I have similar circumstances. My wife’s mother died of breast cancer about a month ago. This is genetic and my wife has already had a scare and is now on a preventative screen programme. I have 3 daughters who are possibile future sufferers of this affliction. My wife also has a couple of mental problems which makes home life and our relationship very strained – and makes me sole provider, primary carer and protector of my children. My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with diabetes and depression and I have difficulties getting her motivated and out of bed – she is following her mother’s example here. Our son was still-born about 11 years ago, which made me question many things. I work in research and my hours are pretty much 24 hours/day if I am to succeed. And I have a churh calling.
First and foremost I would suggest something that I have done. Ask Heavenly Father for His assistance – then look for it and accept it from where ever it comes. As it says in the scriptures – lay your burden at Jesus’ feet and He will lighten your load. Yes, serving others is great and what is expected of us and what Jesus taught us to do. But in the BoM it does say that we should not run faster than we are able. If you fell like you are burning out, then you are trying to run faster than you are able. Through this I have found much peace and joy and have been able to do what I need to for my family.
Next I suggest talking with the bishop about your circumstances so that he can understand that you need either a release or assistance in your calling. Let him know that you are having difficulties coping with the strain at the moment.
Humans tend to see the physically sick and injured but tend not to see the emotionally/mentally sick/injured. I know, I have been overlooked because of my wife’s and daughter’s predicaments – but you don’t have to put up with it. That is what the church is there for. Once you have spoken with your bishop, he will most likely talk with your RS president. But in case he doesn’t there is nothing wrong with you doing that and asking for the help that you need. If you don’t ask, you most likely will not receive. I don’t like asking others for help, it’s just pride on my behalf. But one of the things Heavenly Father has done to lighten my load is to make me humble enough to do just that – ask for help when I need it. It’s taken me about 8 years of living in these conditions to finally ask for assistance.
But I have found comfort and solace from Heavenly Father in and through the true gospel of Jesus Christ in the LDS church and I know that you can too. Trust in Him and ask Him for what you need and He will provide.
for J.J.M. (and Ralph, for that matter 😉 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFxArMeRDI
Ralph, I think you have sort of a mixed blend of Christianity and mormonism, like lots of Mormons do. What you offer (the LDS church) is the chains. What you believe is that you have been blessed by God, and I believe you have as well. Only, you seek to give the church the credit, and I wish you would stop doing that.
The true gospel of Jesus Christ, that your church offers, is “all the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants”. Check out http://www.mormon.org, and you can verify.
It’s a long list of commandments, covenants that no one can keep perfectly, and at the end of it all, there’s the marvelous promise that only IF you keep all you covenants will Jesus forgive you and let you into heaven. You may be able to hopefully dream that your church represents God, but thank GOD IT DOES NOT!
Ralph, thank you for the look into your personal life. I will pray for you. I thank God that He has blessed me with such an easy life in comparison. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles and fatigue. I want to take you to Matthew 11:28-30. Your church interprets this that Jesus’ burdens and requirements are lighter than Heavenly Father’s, but He still has requirements that you must follow: not only God’s commandments, but Joseph Smith’s as well.
In Jesus’ day the Pharisees had tied extra burdens onto the people through the oral law called the Mishna, and their strict interpretation of the Law. The extra burdens were found nowhere in the OT, and Jesus was constantly at odds with them because of this. This was often called “the yolk”. Your church is much like the Pharisees, adding extra burdens onto God’s commandments that you are required to keep to earn righteousness. And what is the purpose of the Law in the first place? Nowhere in the NT does it say that salvation comes through keeping of the Law. I fact it condemns those who try to earn salvation through the keeping of laws and ordinances. The purpose of the Law is to convict us of sin so that we run to Christ for forgiveness and righteousness (Romans 3:19-20).
You don’t have to go to your bishop for a release from your burdens, Ralph, and neither does J.J.M. Jesus has taken that burden from you in His life’s blood. He has payed your debt completely and taken the yolk of the Law upon Himself. He fulfilled the Law because we cannot. Salvation is through the name of Jesus (the Biblical Jesus, that is) and nothing else.
After explaining in Romans 7 that the Law brings only the knowledge of sin and death, Paul proclaims in verse 24,25, “O wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death? I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!” What does Romans 8:1 say? “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus…”
Let down your burdens, Ralph.
JJM,
Somebody once said
“looking back on one’s life, it’s one of the things that strike you most forcibly–that the only thing that’s taught anyone anything is suffering. Not success, not happiness, not anything like that. The only thing that really teaches one what life’s about–the joy of understanding, the joy of coming in contact with what life really signifies–is suffering, affliction”
cont
Realize your not alone in this world.
I think a good start might be to not to listen to Sub or Ralph. I’m guessing guys like them drove you here looking for answers.
Trust the God of the Bible, if you can’t, figure out why, and learn to trust him.
There are many things on the other side of that.
Keep in mind you have a kind and loving creator that is involved with you in ways you can’t possibly imagine. He always has your best interest at heart even when you don’t.
Try to understand that much of what goes on in this life is for the welfare of your soul.
Gather up strength through prayer, you don’t always need to drop to your knees in focused prayer, sometimes it is simply an agreement between your heart and your mind.
Understand that Jesus did not come into the world to found a Church but to proclaim a Kingdom. They are not the same thing.
Look to Paul’s example,stripes, stones, shipwrecks, and thorns in the flesh were religious experiences for him.
Love and only love, to you
Setfree,
The only true peace and comfort comes through the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That we both agree on. We also agree that there is only one path back to Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity, and that is through the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Where that gospel is found is what differs between us – that is why I specified where I found it, in the LDS church. I attributed my finding of peace and comfort to Heavenly Father and that is where it came from.
As far as the ‘commandments’ that you say we need to follow, Jesus Himself gave us commandments to follow in the Bible – the greatest one was to love one another as He loved us. But He always re-iterated the 10 commandments in His teachings showing us that we still need to live them. Even Paul in His epistles does the same thing.
From what I understand after many conversations on this site, we LDS and you Evs believe similarly in works and faith but we differ in timing. You believe that once one has a belief in Jesus then they are saved despite what they have and will do. The Holy Ghost should change their lives so that they emulate Jesus more. If one continues to do bad things then they never really had belief in Jesus and thus were not saved. This still implicates works in salvation, else one could commit hundreds of murders and adulteries a day and still be saved.
We believe that one gains faith in Jesus and then through that faith the Holy Ghost assists that person to live the life Jesus wants us to. It tis through what we do in our lives by our faith that ultimately we will be judged on on the Day of Judgement. That is when we will be saved. That is why we are taught to endure to the end.
So in your faith, if one does not do good works after they claim to have found Jesus then they most likely are not saved (but there is a possibility they are according to some on this site) – while in my faith, we are saved on the Day of Judgement by our faith, which is judged by our works as the Bible teaches.
Hay J.J.M.
You are a breath of fresh air. Please keep posting. After a coupled of years battling on MC with hardcore Mormons, reading your posts gives me hope that their are actually Mormons out there in the world who ask the tough questions and are seeking answers. Our exMormon friend jackg who posts here calls this the “contemplative” stage.
Here’s the bottom-line, as the other Christian posters have made so clear, it’s all about Jesus and what He did on the Cross. We come to Christ tired, broken and wounded and He gives us comfort in our time of need. In my own life I can attest to the fact that what Jesus is asking us is to take up our Cross and follow him regardless of our circumstances.
It wasn’t long after I had received Christ as my Savior that I was experiencing a pretty tough time of it with a lot of mental anguish. I didn’t know the Bible at all but I had started reading it. In a particularly bad moment, God led me to 2 Corinthians 12:9. “And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.” 2 Corinthians 12:10, Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.” This was about 37 years ago and I wish I could report that I’ve “lived happily ever after”. Nope that’s not how it’s worked out in my life. But I’ve come to realize that God did enough for me on the Cross. Anything else I receive is a bonus.
Again, please stick around here.
This story reminds me of story that the Issues Etc. Radio program covered. Todd Wilken, the host of the show, interviewed a pastor who had a young 20 something attendee at Church who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and died. I wish I could find the link to this story online and link to it, but I forget the title and who the pastor was. Basically, a young man who was attending services at Church and was engaged to be married had been accompanying his bride to be and her family to Church on Sundays. His family were not believers. Unexpectedly, just before he was to marry his young fiance’, the young man found he had pancreatic cancer and became very ill. The mother of this young man waited for the pastor to come to visit her son in the hospital and then accosted the pastor angrily – “how could God do this!” He suggested they get something to eat in the hospital cafeteria and talk, diffusing the immediate situation. The story went on to tell how the woman came to faith trusting in Christ crucified for her sins, and how her life was transformed – her anger with God went away and she ran to Him for comfort and forgiveness – God’s amazing grace. Her son also came to faith in Christ before his death, through the ministry of this Lutheran minister. At her son’s funeral – she insisted the pastor tell the attendees about Jesus crucified for their sins – His amazing sacrifice on our behalf. Sometimes God can use even the worst things in our lives to draw us, I know he has in my life. It’s not about Church membership, or doing the right things, it’s about Christ crucified for our sins – His abundant mercy despite our rebellion and sin. How great is his mercy! We cannot know the depths of what God has done for us.
Ralph said,while in my faith, we are saved on the Day of Judgement by our faith, which is judged by our works as the Bible teaches.
How do 2nd anointing’s fit into that Ralph?
Wow bwfjr,
Where’s the love? I’m broken up and hurting after I bared my soul and you just dismissed it with a ‘do not listen to Ralph’ comment. How can you be so cruel? I thought you believe that Jesus wanted you to love everyone.
Note about what I have said in my first posts – I told JJM to seek comfort and peace and help from Heavenly Father and Jesus. I never told her to go to the church to find it. The advice to see the bishop was just about her calling in the church. I did tell her how I found it and mentioned that part of my peace came through the teachings of the true gospel found in the LDS church, but again, this is telling her how I found it, not telling/pushing her to go there to find it.
So what is offensive about those comments? You are telling her exactly the same thing – where you have found your peace and solace and where your beliefs lie. Why should she listen to you and not me? If she wants to know the truth and find her peace then she should listen to all with an open mind and make her choice. I do care if she decides not to believe in the LDS church anymore, but that is her prerogative and decision. It is the Spirit that converts, not me, and it is the Spirit that she should seek because that is how Heavenly Father will give her the comfort and peace.
JJM,
Go to Heavenly Father, seek Him out and He will give you what you need. It may not be what you thought it would but He will answer.
Also, do not leave your husband out of this – it affects him just as much as it affects you, and as husband and wife you two should be unified in all things. The emotional sharing of the pain will help you two grow stronger. That is one thing I wish I did when our son died, but I handled things differently to my wife and we grew apart for a while until we went to grief counselling and the counsellor told me off for cutting my wife out.
David W
DJK info came from his book – 4th edition.
setfree
yet another bending of words by the Ev. Baptism is essential to salvation (true for all of us here) but the website nor LDS doctrine state that you have to baptized into LDS church…simply because Baptism alone does not make one a member. You should get with other Ev posters and hone your fabrication skills….and yes, I still have suspicions about JJM.