Why are some Apostate Mormons ‘re-instated’ into the Church after their death and promised the Celestial Kingdom if all are to be judged according to their works in this life?
There have been many, some murderers, but I would like to focus on one man: an Apostle called by Joseph Smith, who was later ex-communicated for apostasy. After this man died, he was ‘restored’ to all his former blessings and one descendant was told by a prophet they would be with his family in the afterlife if they (the living family members) stayed worthy and that is only available in the Highest Degree of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom. This man was Amasa Lyman.
Lyman was a special counselor to Joseph Smith and was ordained an apostle by Brigham Young. He was married to Christina Partridge, (Daughter of Edward Partridge, First Presiding Bishop of the Church) and had other plural wives. Lyman was ordained an Apostle to replace Orson Pratt, but when Pratt repented and was restored, Lyman was bumped out of the Quorum.
Lyman followed Brigham Young to Utah, but began to believe in spiritualism and to deny the Atonement of Christ. Excerpts of a sermon given in 1859 show he believed that:
[Jesus] “was a good man.” He acknowledged that Jesus “died for the world,” but added, “and what man that ever died for the truth that he died for, did not die for the world? … Have we found redemption through them? … We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of [Christ’s] blood; but the truth is that that blood had no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action.” – JOD:7:297-299
Stripped of his Apostleship in 1867, he was finally excommunicated in 1870 after joining the “New Movement,” which was organized to oppose the political and economic control of Brigham Young in Utah. New Movement leaders [The Godbeites], who embraced spiritualism, named Lyman President of their Church of Zion.
Caroline left Amasa after this and was sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith. As her daughter later recorded:
[she] “felt she must have the protection and the security of the Priesthood in her and her children’s lives. … Evidently in her dire circumstances she felt that the Prophet was the only secure anchor to be sealed to.” (source below)
After Lyman’s death and at Caroline’s funeral in 1908, Francis M. Lyman (President of the Quorum of the Twelve) told
“President [Joseph F.] Smith of my desire to do something for father. Told him of my dreams and my Sister Martha’s, how father had appeared to us and pied his cause. How President Snow told me that there was no doubt but that he could come out all right in the end.” (source below)
A short time later Francis M. told his son Richard (who later became another Apostle),
“This is one of the most important and happiest days of my life. In the temple today, President Joseph F. Smith placed his hands on my head, and by proxy restored my father to all his former blessings, authority and power.” (see, Loretta L. Hefner, “From Apostle to Apostate: The Personal Struggle of Amasa Mason Lyman,” in Mormon Mavericks, John Sillito and Susan Staker (eds.), Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002.) quoted from: http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/Mormons/amasa_lyman.htm#lyman
“President Smith said during his talk that he was sure that Amasa Lyman had paid the penalty for his wrong doing & would have all his wives and children who were worthy in eternity. He also said that the celestial order of marriage, or polygamy could never have been carried out successfully had it not been for the Partridge sisters.” http://www.finarv.org/history/histcepl.htm
How can one pay the penalty for wrong doing after one has already died? Is President Smith saying that he had the power to judge Amasa Lyman?
Bruce R. McConkie states this about “Restoration of Former Blessings”:
“Temple and priesthood blessings, as well as all others pertaining to the Church, are lost upon excommunication. In the event of repentance and subsequent rebaptism, all or part of these former blessings — those pertaining to the priesthood, to endowments, and to sealings — may be restored by a member of the Council of the Twelve upon authorization of the President of the Church.” -Mormon Doctrine:634
But how does one ‘repent’ if one is dead? McConkie is strangely silent on this question. Spencer Kimball, after quoting D&C 132, says in The Miracle of Forgiveness that this life is all you get:
“’For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because you receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
“‘But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
“‘This is eternal lives-to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
“‘Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.’ -D&C 132:22-25. (Italics his, bold mine)
“How impressive the Lord makes the time element! Why should he so emphasize it over and over if there were no significance to it? Would these phrases in the world and out of the world mean that one could go haphazardly through the years of mortality ‘eating, drinking, and being merry,’ ignoring all the commandments and failing to keep his life clean and still receive the blessings?” -MOF: Chapter 1, page 12 (bold mine)
Kimball is clearly in line with the Book of Mormon on this point. Alma 32:34 says:
“For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.”
Joseph Smith said this regarding Apostates:
“All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil—the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life—the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence.” -Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:358 (bold mine)
Isn’t this just what Amasa Lyman did, who was an Apostle, a special witness to Jesus Christ? Why then, are these Restoration of Blessings performed? How can one Prophet say that an Apostate “had paid the penalty for his wrong doing & would have all his wives and children who were worthy in eternity,” while another says “You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance”? Do the Mormon Prophets have the power to ‘grant dispensations’ and set aside the sins committed in this life like the Catholic Pope, or forgive sins like the Catholic Priests? Are they using their influence to ‘favor’ certain individuals and return their blessings?
Spencer Kimball intimated that there is such power in the Church and supported his understanding with a lengthy quote from J. Reuben Clark. At that time he was first counselor in the LDS First Presidency, and he said in part:
“There is in the Church… the power to remit sins, but I do not believe it resides in the bishops. That is a power that must be exercised under the proper authority of the priesthood and by those who hold the keys that pertain to that function.” -MOF:Chapter 21, page 333 (ellipsis in the original)
But do they have the power to do this after one is dead? How are these claims of restoration of blessings and forgiveness of sins after death justified in the light of Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isaiah 53:12, Hebrews 7:25, & 1st Timothy 2:5?
Sorry Janet, I know you’ve come up with an explanation to satisfy your personal requirements that Mormonism is the real deal, but the core of the religion IS the leadership who claim a direct pipeline to the Mormon god. The oldies but goodies like Brigham Young didn’t think he was giving his opinion. The dude thought that everything that came out of his mouth was authoritative and needed to be embraced by the faithful. I believe it was BY who had people follow him around and write down all of his profound utterances. That’s why we’ve got such an extensive paper trail on him and the rest of the false prophets.
So you prayed about it, got a good feeling, interpreted that feeling as a confirmation from the Mormon god that Mormonism is true so that’s it, case closed. That’s the real fly-in-the-ointment for Mormonism; this idea that good feelings mean the spirit is present. Bad feelings and the spirit isn’t present.
Let me give it to you straight Janet, I know enough about audience psychology to make you feel good about Johnny Depp and Tim Burton’s latest movie “Alice in Wonderland”. I can make you feel good about it therefore “Alice in Wonderland” is true. I can even get you to see Moroni and the gold plates if you’re interested. You saw it just now didn’t you? Easy huh?
Oral Robert saw a 50 or 100 foot Jesus (I forget the size), do you believe it? Why not? I’ll bet if you think about it, it will make you feel good. I’ll also direct you to several websites where you can read about the appearances of the Virgin Mary. That will make you feel good also. I use to feel really good in grade school, on warm spring mornings as we marched out of mass singing “On This Day Oh Beautiful Mother”. So what was that about?
Janet, I would suggest that if you want to really have a revelation of Jesus Christ, read the NT and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, not as the spirit offspring of a once upon man who turned into a god and his goddess wife, but the Jesus who is God incarnate.
Olsen Jim,
Is there anything which would cause you to seriously doubt the LDS restoration movement?
Grindael, I’m reading a book by Daniel LeEarl Hall called The Armageddon Cult. Hall escaped the Watchtower Society after losing his wife and children to divorce, his fortune to shady JW business partners, and his health after years of spiritual and psychological abuse at the hands of JW “elders” and “district overseers”. His family, the Hollingsheads, were once Mormon and barely escaped Brigham Young and the SLC blood atonement cult of his time. Fearing for their lives because Hollingshead knew that BY had ordered the murder of members of the Hatch family they fled to California along with 20 families and a Union Army scout escort. On the way there, somewhere in Nevada, 12 men rode up to them saying the church had sent them to make sure no “injuns” got them on the way to California. Among the part of 12 was an Englishman named Dennis whose wife and daughter had been saved in childbirth by Hollingshead’s wife years earlier. When they were alone Dennis told Hollingshead that the twelve men’s names had been drawn out of a hat and they had actually been sent to kill some of the party, including Hollingshead and his family. A short time later the band disarmed the twelve men, tied them up, and sent them back to Utah, two at a time, several days apart. The information was gathered from the personal diaries of Thomas Hollingshead and William Hickman. This was four years before the Mountain meadows massacre. I’ve heard other stories like this, particularly stories of young men being murdered or castrated when an elder wanted to take the young man’s betrothed or sweetheart for a plural wife. Although some may be legends or exaggerations, there are too many stories of Brigham’s avenging angels, Bill Hickman and Porter Rockwell, killing for Brigham to be ignored.
What about for the christian faith? Is there such a thing to sin against the holy ghost? Isn’t that from the bible? Does this mean something else entirely?
Mark 3:28-30, Matthew 12:30-32, Luke 12:8-10
Wish you could attend my class tomorrow where I teach the subject, “Helping Others Recognize the Whisperings of the Spirit”.
In the lesson I will talk about what it’s like to have the constant companion of the Holy Ghost to be with us. Unless you have witnessed it yourself, then you will have to settle for the fly-in the ointment of turning to the Scriptures and stating, God reveals to us all that is needed through his word therein. Good feelings is only a small part of having a personal revelation, the still small voice is another, a burning in the bosom to some, and dreams to others.
Mocking my religion as you do so well in your closing paragraph, just reveals how little you know or care to know about Mormons. You do yourself a injustice by using a word, “incarnate”, that is not even found in the Bible.
Janet
Enki, it’s good to see you’re still around. How have you been? To answer you question, I don’t how likely it is that anyone alive today can sin against the Holy Spirit. If you read the context of the passages you cited above you will see that prior to Jesus’ statement about sinning against the Holy Spirit the Pharisees said that Jesus had cast out a demon by the power of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. In fact, Jesus cast out the demon by the power of God the Holy Spirit and says so Himself in Matthew 12:28, “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” The offense was that the Jews had exorcists of their own (Matthew 12:27) and they had not been accused of casting out demons by the power of Satan, but it was believed that God was in that work. They knew that it was the Spirit of God at work, but their contempt for Jesus was so great that they refused to acknowledge His deity or the power by which the exorcism was truly done. They had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, who is God, by saying He was Beelzebub. Jesus was essentially condemning them on the spot for their hardness of heart (see Mark 3:28-30). In other words, it is not a sin of ignorance, but of willful denial of God at work when the evidence is clear.
liv4JC,
I have been unemployed for several months, which is pretty stressful and frustrating. I am planning on starting a program in allied health.
Thank you for answering my question. So, this sin is unlikely for most people today. So you think the LDS membership makes this sin much more common and accessible than it really is?
So you are saying that those Jews knew the influence of the ‘holy spirit’ and could identify it, but just didn’t want to?
Janet, the word incarnate may not be in the Bible, but would you settle for substitutes like John 1:14 where it is written, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..” Is becoming flesh not becoming incarnate? Or how about Phillipians 2:5-11 where we read,
Remember that this is being written by the strict monotheist Apostle Paul. Paul believes in one God, says that Jesus existed in the form of that One God, but took the form of man. Also notice that the phrase “every knee will bow” is from Isaiah 45:23. There is no doubt that the OT Yahweh was Paul’s God, yet in this passage Paul is equating Jesus as the same God (YHWH) that declares all throughout Isaiah 45 that there is only one God and there is no other. But clearly Paul is presenting two persons here, Jesus, to whom every knee will bow and confess that He is Lord, and God the Father. There is only One God in Paul’s theology, but two persons in this passage that deserve worship as God. Incarnation, and evidence of the Trinity to boot.
Janet,
I’m not sure I understand somethings you said.
“…you will have to settle for the fly-in the ointment of turning to the Scriptures…”
I thought LDS people, and Christians consider it a good thing to open up scriptures, read, learn, and critically ponder. You said this in conjunction with spiritual influences. Although that is interesting, I have a difficult time with something as subjective as that.
“You do yourself a injustice by using a word, “incarnate”, that is not even found in the Bible.”
LDS people use a lot of terms not in the Bible. Telestial is not in the bible, except for maybe the King James version. Pre-existence is not in the bible, Eternal progression is not either. What about free agency? Further, don’t LDS people believe that Jesus was god incarnate?
I looked up ‘fly in the ointment’ it appears to have an origin in the bible.
Ecclesiastes 10:1 (King James Version) has:
“Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.”
Off topic? Today’s NYTimes, Apparently the same spirit is at work at the highest levels of Scientology.
“Scientology is an esoteric religion in which the faith is revealed gradually to those who invest their time and money to master Mr. Hubbard’s teachings.”
Some interesting parallels. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/us/07scientology.html
As Christians, it is best to keep these words close to heart:
“He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered.” – Proverbs 28:26’
On the other hand, according to one Mormon Member of the First Presidency:
“You cannot do wrong and feel right. It is impossible!” – Ezra Taft Benson
I’m sure Mr. Benson lived through the Nazi Regime, was familiar with Muslim Extremists, and read the news when the headlines proclaimed the atrocities of the Manson Family, Jim Jones, Waco and a host of others. Did those people feel good about what they did? Many will say they did, and Muslim Extremists seem to be gaining in popularity, especially with the promise of all those virgins promised to those who die in the faith. Did some feel remorse? I’m sure. Some of the Manson Family have been trying to get out of jail for years. So how did they experience these feelings of goodness and rightnesss in what they believed and did. Wanting to believe can have a powerful effect upon a person. Take for example the placebo effect:
So based on false information, a some people (up to 75 percent in some studies) will believe that something that does not exist really is working in their life,
and their mind produced the desired effect upon their bodies. This is a perfect example of what happens when some want to feel good about something. It is interesting to note, that when some don’t experience the burning of the bosom touted by the Mormons, they are told to ‘pray harder’, thus enhancing the effect of the placebo.
That is just what Mormons do with the BOM. Here read this (placebo) and you will know it is true by a good feeling. This in some cases (like placebos) produces a subjective perception that what they are told is true and like in the case of some who take placebo’s there is sometimes even a physical manifestation.
With placebo, certain conditions can enhance the effect:
Missionary’s get potential converts into controlled situations to do this. They tell them only what they “need” to hear, using the ‘milk before meat’ analogy. They present the BOM as divine, with a watered down version of Smith & his teachings, get them excited and tell them to pray for a feeling if it is true or not. Like the placebo effect, this often produces in the prospect, this ‘burning of the bosom’ and the positive feelings that dupe them into believing the lie (this is the colored pill, or injection) that looks real but is actually a pseudo medication, (false information) that many buy hook, line and sinker.
This is why Mormon Authorities stress so hard not rely on ‘evidence’, or anything but the word of those who present the carefully crafted message. This leads the potential convert along, and with fellowship and kindness they enhance these feelings, giving the potential convert the desired
effect. (the still small voice, the burning in the bosom, the dreams). They use this method again and again (in many cases) with success to convince the new convert that anything they hear that is bad about the Church should be discounted, and they should trust these feelings. But like with placebos, when confronted with the evidence many realize they have been duped:
What is sad is that,
And this is just how it is with many Mormons. That is why Jesus gave us his teachings and the Bible. That is why the Apostles and Jesus warned that savage wolves would come and try to tear down His Gospel. That is why they warned of ‘false teachers’, and ‘prophets’, who would lead many astray. Like the placebo, it is only effective based on a lie. (That this is a REAL DRUG), or in the case of Mormonism, A REAL GOSPEL. But thankfully, we have the words of Paul who said, if any MAN preach any other gospel than that which you receive from us, let him be accursed.
Janet,
I would love to attend your class and hear how your emotions are a true test of whether or not God is speaking to you. I’ve been down this road several times on this blog but I’m going to do it one more time for your benefit.
After I got saved in the very early 70s during the Jesus movement, I was drawn to the Charismatic renewal which was focused on Jesus of course and the full gospel message of accepting and anticipating the work of the Holy Spirit. My spiritual development has taken me through the hyper-faith movement where folks are in direct and constant contact with God receiving “Words from the Lord” on a regular basis.
Having this type of exposure had the effect, over time, of turning me into a person who considers himself a Christian skeptic as far as all of the spiritual manifestations, “words”, revelations, hearing the voice of the Lord and new spiritual seasons people claim. I have a very high threshold that someone has to get to before I’ll believe anything reported to me.
You only have to ask yourself one question. That question is “What spirit does Mormonism claim?” Describe your god to me and your spirit and it’s all I have to know in regards to who you’re hearing from.
BTW, the word “incarnate” doesn’t appear in the Bible? So what? I think you need a good class in Biblical interpretation and the foundations of Christian doctrine.
Janet,
Incarnate simply means “in the flesh” – meaning God was born as a man. Scripture is clear that Jesus is God come as a man, or God incarnate.
So Janet,
You follow a guy who ran around town with a magic rock claiming to be able to see into the ground for the purpose of finding buried treasure; a guy who, along with his friends, claimed to see all manner of spirit beings, and a religion that gets mega emotional highs off of spotting the spirits of dead people. Yea, this is really good stuff. Solid gold just like Smith’s plates with the reformed Egyptian language or his marvelous Book of Abraham.
So who is this god and spirit that you’re hearing from Janet? Just what are you tapping into out there in the spirit world that you’re so gung ho about and that gives you an emotional buzz. Yup, it feels good so it must be true.
People from all forms of religion hear “the voice of their gods”, have emotional experiences and even have miraculous happenings performed in the name of their gods. Having been spiritual seduced, you are willing to give yourself over to the spirit of Mormonism that Joseph Smith conjured by the light of the moon with his magic rock.
Sorry, I’m not impressed with your “feelings as a test of authenticity” approach to spiritual truth. Who is the god/spirit you worship, adore, follow, and hear from Janet. Describe him to me and it’s all I need to know about your spiritual experiences. There’s a beautiful side of evil. That’s where the con is.
I imagine very few people do not know the difference between good and evil. It is inherent within in us except for a very small percentage. Since God created us, and gave us our conscience, did he not also give us the ability to reason, think, and discern.
Do you not also agree that God can give us these moments when we can discern that which is spiritual. All I’m pointing out is that when we have these experiences, isn’t it easier to recognize them when they become more familiar. Example, when at the age of 11 – 12 I experienced my first spiritual event, though I did not recognize it as such. I knew something was true, heard a voice, yet could not tell you the why, or how of it. As I grew up and desired to know more about my Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ it became apparent I would have to study. I also realized that I needed to find a quiet place, for even in the scriptures it speaks of a still small voice, 1 Kings 19:12
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
Also our Father give us the following, Psalm 46:10
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
You marginalize everything by stating everything is based on feelings as a test of authenticity. Interesting that you leave out dreams, and the whispering of the spirit.
Later as I tested the scriptures, and testing is asking the one and only being I knew to go too. I was answered again in the same way I was as a child, first the small quiet voice, second it was followed shortly after with a dream, and finally the feelings as if being wrapped in a warm blanket.
Your quiet off the mark when you say “There’s a beautiful side of evil”, that I imagine would be hard for you to prove in any way, especially through the scriptures. Evil cannot be beautiful, only tempting.
Janet.
Janet,
Go get a copy of the book “The Beautiful Side of Evil”. It will provide you with more than enough examples of how Satan disguised himself as an angel of light as the Scriptures point out. You have left out the most important point which I’m sure you are avoiding.
Janet, again, who is your god? Describe this god, this spirit who gives you dreams and whispers to you and makes you feel warm and cozy. Spiritual discernment 101 Janet, Satan can counterfeit miracles and signs and wonders. Janet who brings you your spiritual experiences. Describe him. Mormonism, as I have pointed out continuously, has as it’s foundation, the occult world as drawn on by Joseph Smith. The very rituals you practice in your temples draw spirits of those that claim to be the spirits of the dear departed.
You won’t give this up Janet because it provides you with a certain level of emotional comfort and I would guess notoriety within your Mormon circle. A little jolt for the ego. I had a friend once who visited a psychic of sorts and reported how peaceful she was in her presence. Bad business Janet regardless of how it makes you feel.
So Janet,
We’re down to the real nitty gritty here as we use to say back in the 60s. Who out there in the spirit world are you connecting yourself to? Who is the one you call Jesus? Could you also describe Him? We know that Mormonism has its own prophet in Joseph Smith who had his own scripture, his own god, his own spirit and his own Jesus. We know that Smith was a practitioner of magic arts and borrowed, stole is a better word, his temple rituals from the occult based group known as Free Masonry. We also know that Smith and his follows made a practice of peeking into the spirit world to see all sort of marvelous beings and reported some fantastic happenings like rooms full of gold plates for example, piled high.
So who is the Mormon Jesus, the Mormon god, the Mormon spirit that speaks to you, causes you to dream and gives you wonderful feelings of spiritual bliss? We have all these discussions on this blog but the bottom line is, who is the Mormon god? Dealing with false spiritual entities may seem to be very rewarding. It may even make you feel that you’re special and on some sort of spiritual fast track. When you go venturing out in the spirit world Janet, be careful with what you’re dealing. Based on your Mormon affiliation and your calling upon the Mormon god, we know what you’re in to.
Enki,
You ask me “Is there anything which would cause you to seriously doubt the LDS restoration movement?”
Good question. The honest answer is- I don’t know. It would be arrogant, in my opinion, for me to say that nothing could shake my faith. I just don’t think that is a healthy claim.
I had brief doubts the first time I read anti material years and years ago. But it only took reading that material in its entirety to recognize its flaws and distortions.
I have since studied pretty much all the issues (from both sides) that have been the source of controversy and debate. I have found the same patterns in approach and process of coming to conclusions in almost all the literature produced by those against Joseph Smith and the Church.
There is a lightning fast instinct to come to conclusions by those folks. If the defense of the BOM, Joseph Smith, etc. requires patience and sustained attention to nuance and detail, it is not acceptable to these people- they consider that stumbling and excuse-making.
It is difficult to imagine something crushing the effect for me of receiving so many answers to prayers and seeing the effect of the BOM on my life. It is truly as obvious as night and day to me. And EVERYTHING I have studied has confirmed that witness.
It would be very convenient to find something that convinced me it was all untrue. Such a discovery would free up a lot of time, energy, and effort. But as of yet, everything that I am made of knows as clearly as anything that it is true.
This is your defense, ““The Beautiful Side of Evil”. I asked for something that could clarify your statement from the Scriptures. If that is all one needs to do is recommend a book, then I suggest you read the Book of Mormon and find some truths. It’s not what you read, it’s what is verified by the Holy Ghost. There are those who desire the spirit guiding there lives daily, what you and I debate as whether it is from God or not:
“We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. (1 cori 2;12)
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 john 4;1)
The scriptures teach that “great men are not always wise.”
Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Job 32:9.
Spiritually you may “know not, and know not that you know not,” and be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Job 32:9.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. 2 Ne. 32:5
And the most important one you seem to have overlooked.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Janet
Janet,
I want to offer a contrasting view to your statement about Scripture where you seem to think that God whispering to your heart is more impressive than Scripture:
You said “In the lesson I will talk about what it’s like to have the constant companion of the Holy Ghost to be with us. Unless you have witnessed it yourself, then you will have to settle for the fly-in the ointment of turning to the Scriptures and stating, God reveals to us all that is needed through his word therein.”
God speaks to use through His Word – God inspired the writing of Scripture. Jesus prayed the Psalms – these very words He spoke when He was on earth when He went to the temple. Reading the Bible we hear Jesus speaking to us as we learn, hear, and think on what God has provided for us through Holy Scripture. Scripture speak s of our redemption through the cross (1Cor 1:23-25, 1Cor 1:30-31) – it points us to a God and a reality outside of ourselves – a salvation that comes not from within, not from my own striving, but was accomplished on the cross. Through the preaching of God’s Word – people are drawn to the savior (John 6:44), they hear His voice, and respond as faith rises in their hearts – “yes, I believe, I know that my salvation is in Jesus.” (John 6:47) Just as people were drawn to Jesus by His teaching the Word, so today are people drawn to the Lord through the preaching of His word – they hear His voice and believe. When you read Scripture for comprehension and listen to what it says – you are hearing the voice of Jesus, the voice of God! When you hear Scripture rightly preached – saying believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved (Acts 16:30-31), God is speaking, saying believe in me, trust in my mercy and I will not cast you out, you will be saved. The depth of Scripture is amazing – and far from being a fly in the ointment – it is the very voice of Jesus speaking to us saying “come unto me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” (Matt 11:28-30)
The fly in the ointment is that just stating God speaks to you through the Scriptures is not the same as knowing the Scriptures are the Word of God, and how is that truth revealed? by the Holy Spirit. No one wants to discuss the calling of the Holy Ghost, amazing.
Janet.
Janet – God is present, the Holy Spirit brings God’s Word revealed in Scripture to convict and draw sinners like myself to Him. I do not in any way doubt that God, the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father and the Son is present when His Word is taught, read, or preached properly.
Unless you have witnessed it, Holy Ghost yourself, then you will have to settle for the fly-in the ointment of turning to the Scriptures and stating, God reveals to us all that is needed through his word therein. Where do you ever talk about the Holy Ghost?
Why does this seem a hard thing for Evangelicals to do, is it because revelation is something done away with, why else would you say the Scriptures speak to you and not personal revelation.
Janet.
Have you been to a Christian Church? The Holy Spirit is talked about quite a bit.
You make a mistake in assuming that we do not rely on revelation. I used to post here under a different name, Michael P but lost that password. When I was posting here more often, I encountered this argument quite often, that we do not rely on revelation only scriptures. There are several directions to go in response.
First, we do rely on revelation, only we are more skeptical of any feeling we might have that we might perceive as revelation. This does not mean that we do not recognize revelation. To the contrary, we do.
Second, it seems that revelation to you is separate from the scriptures, and that relying on scriptures to confirm revelation is a bad thing. How is it a bad thing? It actually seems to me to quite wise to confirm a spiritual feeling with the most important book on the topic ever written, ie the Bible (something you should also agree with). To not do so would be foolish.
Third, “fly-in-the-ointment of turning to Scriptures” is actually a description to denigrate them. Do you see why? It is a way to say that the scriptures are in the way of receiving true revelation. That LDS do not like to go to Scripture to confirm a revelation is eerilly like avoiding them.
Fourth, do you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in our faith? He is a central part of our faith, and is around us all the time. LDS minimize or do not understand the role of the Spirit in our faith, and as such they misrepresent what it is we believe(sound familiar?).
Fifth, we say the Scriptures speak to us because they are God breathed, and as such God does communicate to us (reveal Himself and His will) through the Scriptures.
Janet, you need to have a standard by which to judge what you perceive is a leading or a revelation from the Holy Spirit. JS claimed God told him to engage in adulterous relationships with women other than his wife. Does scripture teach that? He believed God told him that they would find buried gold in Salem. He believed God told him that the rights to the BoM would be sold. He believed God told him to start a bank in Kirtland that would soon swallow all other banks. Did any of those whisperings come true? Is greed and covetousness seen as a good or bad thing in the scriptures? Shouldn’t a prophet of God have tested his revelations by God’s revealed character that is given in the Bible? Brigham Young taught that the blood of Jesus did not cleanse from all sins and to truly atone for certain sins you had to have your own blood spilled. Does the Bible teach that? How about the BoM. Does it teach any of those things? Is murder and human sacrifice commanded anywhere in the Bible? Is that teaching consistent with the character of God? “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) You need to test your whisperings against the Bible to see if they are in accord with what God has revealed about Himself. I’m speaking from experience. Test all things against scripture. I know that you are sincere in your search for truth and you want nothing more than to please God. That is admirable. I pray that God truly teaches you the truth through his word and this ministry.
Janet,
If I told you I have received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, that God has blessed me with the gift of prophesy and that I’ve had visions and dreams and been miraculously healed would that be enough to satisfy you regarding the witness of the Holy Spirit that the God I follow, the Son whom I claim as my Savior and the Holy Word of God the Bible confirms my beliefs as to the truth of orthodox, traditional Christianity?
Of course it wouldn’t because with Mormons it’s always one more thing. With Mormons it’s always upping the ante, changing the game, ignoring the obvious and clinging to a false set of beliefs, a corrupted prophet and a spiritual entity that binds you. You’ve totally ignored my request, as Mormons usually do, to tells us who your god is, your Jesus and your Holy Ghost. You won’t because in doing so you’d have to come to grips with the fact that as a Mormon, you follow a spiritual entity that was conjured up by a false prophet with a magic rock. That’s the spirit world Mormons are trapped in, blinded and bound and lost.
Janet asked
Personally, I’d like to say the Holy Ghost prompted me to do this or that (which I believe He does). But I defer when I see the abuses that Joseph Smith and his followers have poured into the phrase (as liv4jc pointed out).
How can I put my statement next to the claims of Joseph Smith? How can you tell who is being led by the Holy Ghost, and who isn’t, when we both make the same claim?
It’s no good appealling to what makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. I bet most suicide bombers feel warm and fuzzy about what they do. I fully expect that Joseph Smith felt warm and fuzzy about what he did.
In one sense, I can understand it. I need affirmation, and I go to the places where I get it. However, I also need to be challenged when I get it wrong; to be un-affirmed; to have those warm fuzzies stripped away; to be stretched, crucified, even (see what Paul was talking about in Gal 2:20).
What guides us, then? The Holy Ghost, who illuminates scripture.
He leads us into the joyous assembly of heaven that worships Christ (see Rev 5). If your “Holy Ghost” is leading you somewhere else, then it’s not the “Holy Ghost” that the Bible speaks of.
This, I think, is relevant to the subject at hand because two of the defining characteristics of Mormonism are its rejection of the Christian Church and its rejection of the worship of Christ.
Olsen Jim,
Thank you for your honesty. You have at least some motivation to find fault.
“It would be very convenient to find something that convinced me it was all untrue. Such a discovery would free up a lot of time, energy, and effort.”
What would you do with this extra time, energy and effort? Is there something you would like to do, and your belief is keeping you from being able to do it? This is actually something more to think about. I don’t expect you to answer such a thing on this forum.
Janet,
Here is a link with a book review for “Beautiful side of Evil”
http://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Side-Evil-Johanna-Michaelsen/dp/0890813221
Janet –
1) I believe the Holy Scriptures are an incredible gift that God has given to us. Look through the Scriptures – the “Word of the Lord” is emphasized over and over. Jesus was the Word made flesh (John 1:14). We have God’s Word – to learn from, to study, for God to reveal Himself to us! Wow – how incredible is that. Jesus is the Word and spoke forth God’s Word. We now have God’s Word speaking to us through the Scriptures – and they say turn to my crucified and risen Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Spirit points us to Christ and lifts up the Lord Jesus Christ and sets us free from sin and death (Romans 8:1-3). The Holy Scriptures reveal God and the Lord Jesus Christ – showing us His mercy and grace with the Holy Spirit testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ to us through this amazing gift.
2) Jesus is how we relate to God. It is through His sacrifice on the cross that we are justified and declared righteous before God. The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and calls us to believe, to cast ourselves on the mercy of Christ. To fall down in worship before the Lord Jesus Christ.
Janet,
“…very few people do not know the difference between good and evil. It is inherent within in us except for a very small percentage.”
That is a very deep topic. As a child I had certain ideas of good and evil. These changed when I reached my teen years, then again in adulthood. Again when I received a college education. And just a few days ago I came across some pretty shocking information which radically changed my perception of just about everything. This was perhaps the largest shift I have experienced yet.
While although your statement is true there is a large degree of subjectivity to it, based on a lot of factors.
I totally agree, justification can ease a lot of evil.
Janet.
Justification through the Cross of Christ doesn’t just ease a lot of evil, it completely overcomes and defeats evil. Jesus death has completely redeemed His people from sin and death and defeated the devil. (Romans 5:18-19)
Yes, I was just going to ask what definition and sense of the words ‘justification’ and ‘ease’. At this point I don’t know if there is any agreement on anything.
“The Beautiful Side of Evil”, I read all the reviews and no thank you, it does not interest me to even think that Evil has a beautiful side. I find that frightening to think Evangelicals would put aside the counsel found in the Scriptures and place any validity in a Book that suggest otherwise.
MORONI
CHAPTER 7
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
Janet
Here is one example I have as a child around good and evil. LDS people believe in honoring civil laws. (12th article of faith)
“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
As a child I quickly learned that this is actually observed by various degrees, and not absolutely, even by Temple Mormons.
I recall waiting at an intersection with a parent and grandparent for the light to change and the ‘walk’ signal to come on. I resisted with all my might against them as they dragged me across the street. They had taught me to wait for the light. But we were late going somewhere, and there were not any cars in sight. Technically it was a violation of the law. Just a few years ago I had an old lady try to argue with me over this very same thing. It was late, no cars in sight. I crossed the road, and some old woman started telling me to ‘obey the law’. Technically I broke the law, but is social custom for most people to do so in such circumstances. It could be a form of justification. But the local government has no interest in regulating this law to that degree. The only time I have heard of citations issued is when it deals with heavy traffic intersections during busy times, and where there had been injuries or deaths. I have other observations about much more controversial topics which I won’t include at this time.
I’ve done that also, and your point being.
What is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? the bare minimum and the spirit of the law as above and beyond.
Janet
Let me do my little primer for Janet on the beautiful side of evil and use scripture. Now I know this is a trap because our friend Janet, who deftly avoids telling us who her god is, will say it’s not enough, doesn’t answer her question, and any other variety of Mormon gamesmanship.
If “evil” didn’t have a beautiful side, few would be tempted to sin. That’s the point of temptation. Satan dresses something up to look good/beautiful but it’s a trap. In entrapping situations there is the prey, the predator, the trap and of course the bait. The “bait” is the beautiful side of evil. It gets the prey to act in a way that is not in its own best interest. Focused on the bait, the prey ignores the trap. The trap, being specially designed for the prey, makes it difficult or perhaps impossible, for the prey to escape.
Now Janet, do you think there are any examples in the Bible of people being tempted? Let’s see, how about Jesus. Satan comes to Jesus and tries three different temptations. Each temptation has a beautiful side to it. It’s attractive, tempting. The biggest one was when Satan told Jesus that he could have the world. What was the beautiful side? Easy, no Cross. The devil was trying to get Jesus to forsake the cross for the shinny object, the world. Of course the devil wanted to keep Jesus off of the cross. It’s there that Satan was defeated.
Do you need more examples Janet? Let me give you a real life example of the beautiful side of evil. It’s called Mormonism. It’s bright and shinny on the outside. The missionaries tell wonderful stories and try to get folks to buy into Mormonism on an emotional level. But taking the bait results in entrapment because that which has been shined up to look beautiful (Mormonism), is a clever device to get people to follow a false god.
Joseph Smith and his seduction of women is also the beautiful side of evil. The women were told they’d secure a spot in the Celestial Kingdom for their families. Beautiful evil!
Well, as long as I’m doing this, I may as well keep going. As Janet insists, from Scripture; 2 Samuel 11:2. We’ll start there. “Now when evening came David arose from his bed and walked around on the roof of the king’s house, and from the roof he saw a BEAUTIFUL woman; bathing: and the woman was very BEAUTIFUL in appearance.
vs. 4 And David sent messengers and took her, and when she came to him, he lay with her; and when she had purified herself from her uncleanness, she returned home.
vs. 5 And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said, “I am pregnant.”
Now we all know how this turns out. David calls the husband back from the battlefield thinking he will have sex with his wife and think he is then the baby’s father. The husband refuses so David has the husband put in the front of the battle where he gets killed.
vs. 27 When the time of mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house and she became his wife; then she bore him a son. But the thing that David had done was EVIL in the sight of the Lord.
The baby of course ends-up dying shortly after birth.
The woman was beautiful. She made David “feel” good. How wonderful! No, how evil.
Janet you are a perfect example of someone who is trapped in something that to you looks and feels beautiful, but it’s evil. Mormonism has forsaken God for a god of its own choosing. This spirit entity provides you with warm fuzzies and dreams and little voices. The spirit world is full of such entertainment which is entrapment for the unsuspecting. That’s the bait for you Janet. You want the warm fuzzies and the spiritual experiences. You are the prey ignoring the trap while seeking the bait. There is a way out but you can’t take your eyes off the shinny object.
How do we know who to believe? Who really has the truth? Another man who had his blessings restored was the Son of John Taylor who left the Church after his father died over Polygamy. He claimed his father had a revelation that he found among his papers after he died. The Church did not believe him or that Taylor’s revelation was from God. They knew they could not sustain it or the Church would be destroyed. They HAD to abandon polygamy. The reason we have the Bible, is to show us God. Jesus was the example, and He lived his life in such a way that when we read about Him and the early Apostles who followed him, His Spirit confirms that this was God and that we should follow those teachings outlined there. Do the actions of those who have claimed to be acting for God in the Mormon Church live up to the standard of those in the Bible, (The NEW Testament)? No. Mobaby made some good points on this thread to show this. Let’s get to Taylor:
John W. Taylor was the son of the Prophet John Taylor, who was with Joseph Smith at Carthage and became the Third President of the Mormon Church. In 1884 (John W.) was Ordained an Apostle, and became known as the ‘Prophet of the Quorum’ for his many prophetic statements.
Taylor was brought up in polygamy, and had two wives that he married before the 1890 Manifesto, and three he married in Mexico after the 1890 Manifesto. He married his last wife in 1809 after the Second Manifesto. He had 36 children.
Taylor believed that the revocation of polygamy was wrong and said two years after the Manifesto:
“I do not know that that thing was right though I voted to sustain it, and will assist to maintain it; but among my father’s papers I found a revelation given him of the Lord, and which is now in my possession, in which the Lord told him that the principle of plural marriage would never be overcome. President Taylor desired to have it suspended, but the Lord would not permit it.”
The Revelation reads [in part]:
The revelation appears to be in the hand of John Taylor, and written in 1886 (a year before his death), but it is unsigned. The reaction of the Church Leadership was skeptical. In the 1920s and 1930s, it would be referred to as a “scrap of paper” and “a pretended revelation,” with suggestions that it didn’t even exist.
On April 6th, 1904 Joseph F. Smith (Son of Hyrum Smith) issued a statement which became known as the Second Manifesto, which states that no marriages had been sanctioned by the Church after the 1890 Manifesto & anyone who entered into a plural marriage “will be liable to be dealt with according to the rules and regulations [of the Church] and excommunicated therefrom.”
When Apostle Reed Smoot became a Senator, there were hearings in Congress on whether Mr. Smoot should keep his office. He was committed [by his election] to vote against any who still practiced polygamy and in 1905 withheld his sustaining vote of the Quorum of the Twelve. Taylor resigned, saying
“I told you brethren that while I didn’t support you in the policy of deposing the apostles to make a showing in Congress and said I would not approve of the policy of the Church in this regard, I would not oppose it.”
In 1911 Taylor was charged with entering into polygamous marriages after the 1890 Manifesto & of aiding others to do so & told
the Twelve:
“I have never married any one without the endorsement and authority of the President of the Church, and if you desire I will give the names of those I have married, but I think this would be unwise.”
He was subsequently ex-communicated for insubordination. He was later officially rebaptized and on May 21, 1965 received the ordinance of Restoration of Blessings (and Priesthood) by proxy under the hands of Joseph Fielding Smith, with the unanimous approval of the Twelve & First Presidency (Under David O. McKay who was chosen to fill Taylor’s vacancy). [sources: http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/Mormons/john_w_taylor.htm#john w. & LDS Biographical Encyclopedia)
Here we have another Apostate, being given back all his blessings & priesthood. With this is included the resealing of him to his wives. Why would they do this? The man lived his life. He got what he opted for at the time. Is he any better than any of us or is it ‘who he knew, or who he was?’ The Church DID sanction polygamous marriages and there is evidence that even Wilford Woodruff who signed the Manifesto took another wife after that. Go here for an excellent essay on Polygamy after the Manifesto and how the Mormon leaders lied and continued to practice it. http://www.lds-mormon.com/quinn_polygamy.shtml#intro
The bottom line is this. ANYONE claiming to have direct revelation from God directing us to practice and believe things not in the Bible should be subject to the most careful scrutiny. Just reading the BOM and getting a good feeling is not enough. We must examine the whole of the picture. Why is there no archeological evidence IN THIS DAY AND AGE OF TECHNOLOGICAL WONDERS? Why is Cumorah devoid of any piece of evidence of a massive battle? These points & other evidences from Mormonism’s History show that the Messengers are not of God. Like David Koresh, Jim Jones and a host of others, they too did have followers who believed in them, but their lives and what they did AND TAUGHT show
they were not of God.
Mormons have carefully edited and withheld much of their history that shows the gaping flaws in it. Why won’t they open up the archives to independent historians? If they are the Church of God, what are they afraid of? They are afraid of the TRUTH. Therefore they have potential converts listen to watered down history, and pray over a book that produces the placebo effect and that is the basis for their Church Membership and the basis of doing everything for the rest of their lives. The still small voice was there with Elijah, but he also called down fire from heaven. Mormons have given up those other spiritual manifestations, speaking in tongues, etc. that was so prevalent in Kirtland, again why? Because the leaders would not be in full control. God would be. The life of Jesus and HIS teachings proves who he was. The life and teachings of Joseph & Brigham prove they were not followers of the Jesus of the Bible.
Chuckle, what a parody, using Basheba as an example of Evil looking beautiful. Did not God create Basheba? Did her beauty come from Satan or God? Was David tempted by her beauty or her nakedness? Why does the scriptures even mention she was taking a bath and David did observe. So how can you relate Gods beautiful creation to being evil, because David was tempted by a pretty women? Wow, how many other women in the world are also beautiful, yet some men do not see that as a temptation. You miss the mark, Satan was using immoral temptations, the fact she was a women, and she was beautiful, and she was naked does not make evil beautiful. It was the act of immorality that was the sin, a choice to follow through on a temptation that Satan put into the mind of David. He lusted after her, and that my friend is the sin. Lust is not beautiful. Do you think Satan put into the mind of David, gee since this women is beautiful, you ought to have her over for dinner and conversation, no Satan tempted him with a sexual desire which is obvious that the sciptures pointedly bring out when describing the scene as a private bath which David did observe. If Basheba new that David was watching, probable, then she used her sexuality to bring attention to her self. Is this what you consider the beauty of evil? Amazing.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
Janet,
I’m intrigued. Tell me exactly what is PERFECT KNOWLEDGE, as day from night. You seem to know since you have quoted the scripture twice.
Does God ask us to not Judge others, so a perfect knowledge is beyond an opinion or speculation, or gossip. God gives us the ability to know for sure, good from evil. There is no gray area as many would like to think, black or white there is no middle ground.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
God does not allow for any unclean thing to enter into His Kingdom in Heaven. God does not tell us evil is beautiful, that is man theory and most likely his gray area.
Janet
Unbelievable Janet,
You sure can do the Mormon twist! Of course the evil was the adultery. What point do you think I was making? Satan dresses sin up to make it look good, but it’s evil. That’s the beautiful side of evil. It looks good but it’s not.
Man are you Mormon.
What’s this, “God does not allow for any unclean thing to enter into His Kingdom in Heaven.” Well duh! Real profound there Janet.
Everyday I am treated to more insights into the workings of the Mormon mind.