The April issue of Ensign magazine (pages 38-42) includes an article by LDS Seventy (First Quorum) Richard J. Maynes. “The Eternal Importance of Honesty” is itself a breath of fresh air in its own honesty. The article clearly reflects traditional LDS teachings, the sort of ideas Mormons like to believe aren’t really Church doctrine.
To begin, Mr. Maynes expresses the imperative of being honest:
“The big questions for each Latter-day Saint are these: Will I be true to the covenants I have made with the Lord in the waters of baptism and in the holy temple? Will I be totally honest with the Lord?”
Then he goes on to explain what it means to be honest with the Lord.
“…when we are honest, we act upon our knowledge by obeying the commandments.
“…being honest with [Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ] means we are true to the covenants we have made with Them (see Deuteronomy 6:2-5; 8:11). We make promises to the Lord when we are baptized, and we make additional promises to Him as we participate in temple ordinances.
“There is nothing more important than being true to the covenants we have made with the Lord. Our eternal life depends upon the principle of honesty.”
Mr. Maynes then explains the inverse,
“…when we break a commandment, we are actually breaking our word, our promises, and our covenants. We are also being dishonest with the Lord and, as a result, we are subverting His work.”
Mr. Maynes’ article then includes a story about marble sculpting in the Golden Age. After pointing out that an excellent sculpture requires flawless marble as its base, Mr. Maynes writes,
“In a gospel context we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are expected to be righteous, not just appear to be righteous” (emphasis mine).
Finally, in a section subtitled “Honesty and Gospel Principles” Mr. Maynes writes,
“The doctrine taught by Jesus Christ and revealed to prophets throughout the ages is true and needs to be understood and applied is we want to return to live with Him and His Father. Basic principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are not negotiable. They represent the foundation upon which life is lived in the celestial kingdom.
“It is true that we can exercise our agency and choose not to live celestial law, but it is also true that we will ultimately be compelled to accept the result of that decision when our inheritance is justifiably telestial or terrestrial.
“Honesty is the trait that connects the promises we have made to the Lord to our everyday actions. If we are honest we will keep the covenants we have made in the waters of baptism…and we will keep the covenants we have made in the holy temples of the Lord…
“Remember, the Lord expects us as members of His Church not only to appear to be good but also to actually be good.”
My question to Latter-day Saints is this: When you made your covenants with the Lord at baptism, and as you renew them each week during sacrament, do you promise to try to keep His commandments? Or do you promise to actually keep them? If you’ve been to the temple, did you promise to try to keep your covenants? Or did you promise to actually keep them?
Mr. Maynes’ article does not talk about repentance. It does not talk about trying to keep covenantal promises. It says that eternal life depends on being honest with the Lord by actually keeping and obeying all covenants and commandments. One cannot appear to be good or, by implication, merely be getting better; one must “actually be good,” which is defined as “keeping the covenants” made at baptism and in the temple.
Mr. Maynes’ teaching, as unwelcome as it may be to Latter-day Saints who recognize that they are not keeping their covenants, is entirely consistent with that of many LDS Authorities. For example, Spencer W. Kimball made it clear that “Trying is not sufficient” (Miracle of Forgiveness, 164). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept…” (The Way to Perfection, 206).
Here’s the problem. Mormonism says that God requires people who wish to spend eternity with Him “not only to appear to be good but also to actually be good,” in that they keep all their covenants and obey all the commandments. But the Bible says, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one” (Romans 3:10-12).
What, then? What hope have we? This:
“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (Romans 3:21-28).
My friends, you cannot achieve eternal life through the restored gospel of Mormonism. It is impossible. But God offers you another way, a sure and perfect way, to be reconciled to Him and embrace His gift of eternal life: receiving the flawless righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
Amen.
Very good Sharon.
Funny but as I read this, I was thinking back to my first communion when I was in third grade in Catholic school. Before we received communion for the first time there were weeks of instruction and a big build-up to the actual event. All of us third graders stood up before the communion rail, boys with nicely pressed pants and shirts and ties. Girls dressed in the white communion dresses and veils; all of us holding candles.
The priest told us that when we were baptized (as infants) our godparents made certain promises for us, but now it was time for us to make those promises ourselves. In loud clear voices when the priest said, “Do you renounce Satan?” We all answered, “We do renounce him!” We went through the litany of baptismal promises pledging ourselves to God.
Now, of course, even at a young age we all realized that we weren’t going to live out a life of sinless perfection. The Catholic church had worked out a solution for our sin nature by providing the sacrament of confession where by we could get some emotional relief from the guilt of having broken God’s laws. We realized that God forgave us and not the priest, but the ritual had some benefits in reminding us that we would often fall off of the horse, but we needed to get back on and continue our spiritual journey.
I left all of that behind over forty years ago but certain truths remain. One is that I’m a sinner and I can’t do much about that……alone. Paul writes that if we walk by the Spirit we won’t carry out the deeds of the flesh. And John tells us that if we do sin, we have an advocate in Jesus and that we are continually cleansed by the blood of Christ from all of our unrighteousness. Paul’s dilemma that he wrote about was that with his mind he was serving the law of God but with his body he wasn’t. In frustration he cried out, “Who will free me from this body of death?” His answer was thanks be to God that through Jesus Christ he had been reconciled to God.
Hmmm… Let’s see what Jesus said on the issue:
He did not say, try to be perfect. He said, be perfect.
The Gospel does not require men to be perfect in order to achieve exaltation. There was only one perfect person. The Gospel does not require men to never break their covenants with the Lord to be obedient in all things. All have come short of the glory of God. That is the purpose of the Atonement. That is grace. For all the evangelist mocking of the LDS view of salvation and grace, they underestimate how dear and crucial the principle of mercy and grace is to Latter-day Saints. One cannot achieve exaltation by obedience to the law. If we were judged on that, only Jesus would be saved. We are saved by grace, after all that we can do. And what has the Lord asked us to do?
Well this is a curious thing in deed and my hope is that one of the Mormon scholars does a better job of explaining this because I still don’t get it. We have the article seeming to say you can’t just try. That’s pretty clear to me. Then you better be doing and not just trying if you have any hope at all of becoming a god.
So how much do you have to do? That’s never really been spelled out. Where’s the checklist? Also can you do 1% and grace covers the 99%? If so, why not do the 1% and let the other fools kill themselves trying to reach the brass ring.
The article makes perfect sense in the context of Mormonism. Nobody is getting deification handed to them. You have to work, strive, put out, pedal to the metal in order to get the god position; or maybe not?
This of course is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the gospel of Joseph Smith, the man with the magic rock who made it up out of whole cloth and now has a whole bunch of dupes running on the little gerbil wheel of religious activity thinking they can join the Mormon god club. Spinning, spinning, spinning away on a fool’s errand.
Mormonism, I must repeat, has a different God, a different Jesus, a different Spirit and a whole way different plan of salvation. Everyone but apostate Mormons gets some level of reward regardless of faith or the lack of it. The folks who really hunker down and work their little hoovies to the bone get to become gods…….maybe. Stay tuned!
I hope that the Christian posters here realize that this is a discussion about the requirements within Mormonism to become a god. It has nothing to do with Christianity. If we start talking about God’s love, mercy, grace and salvation, we’re going to get into a religious cross-cultural discussion. We can only have a discussion about these things with other Christians because we share a common set of beliefs. Mormons do not share those beliefs.
Mormons believe that there is a pantheon of gods motoring through the universe checking on the status of their various planets and worlds. Mormons are on a self-improvement quest to join the god-club. The article quoted above is instruction to those so inclined males, as to what they have to do to make it to the major leagues of godhood. The standard to make it to deification is pretty stiff according to the article. Transforming one’s self into a god is pretty hard work. It takes a lot of effort; a lot of doing. I can see why Mormons just kick back and go for a lower level of reward. A friend of Andy Watson told (Andy) that he was going to do the “work” in the next life, I guess meaning after death. I don’t know how that particular part of the god program works but in Mormonism it seems that there’s like a plan A and a plan B.
I don’t think Joseph Smith could possibly make it in the god program. He smoked, drank alcohol and was involved in bank fraud, not to mention adultery. Or maybe, just maybe, a guy like Smith holds out hope for all the Mormon male slackers out there.
Iamse7en, you write this: “The Gospel does not require men to be perfect in order to achieve exaltation.” What do you mean by exaltation?
You also spend some time saying how Jesus was the only perfect person to ever have lived. Does that mean that you cannot ever have your own world? Do you get a lesser world, then, if you do get your world? Or, did Jesus sin?
You need to clarify that, because if perfection is the goal, even if you state grace plays a huge role, then there is a disconnect. The disconnect exists because you say you do not demand perfect through grace, but require it to make it to godhood.
If grace is a huge part of it, then Mayne’s premise is wrong. If Mayne is right, then the standard, if grace is a part, must be lower. It cannot be both ways, unless you grant that even Christ was not perfect or that there are levels of godhood.
Since this is all about the process that one must go through to become a Mormon god and that it has been declared that there are millions or perhaps billions of these gods, could one of our Mormon scholars point me to some ancient writings that tell about this? Get my drift? Is it in the BoM that gives us an ancient record that was written on golden plates in reformed Egyptian? That sounds pretty old. Does the BoM talk about men becoming gods and the process by which this takes place? Where’s the record? Where do we first hear about this concept that was supposedly in place in the time of the apostles? Could it be that it’s not discussed in the OT and NT? So if it’s not there, where did the notion come from along with the estimation of the vast numbers of these gods? There has to be a record some where. Could the record be buried on more ancient gold tablets that are just waiting to be discovered? Would the magic rock be of any help here in finding them?
So where did Joseph Smith come up with the idea of men becoming gods anyway? Anyone out there know?
I know this is really spiritually deep stuff that only those in the Mormon gifted and talented program can grasp but don’t sell us short. Give it a try and see if we Christians have the right stuff to grasp all these deep and special spiritual truths.
Falcon, I think they’ll point to the line about the council of gods in the OT, the lines in the NT about rewards in heaven, rooms prepared, becoming ‘like’ god, etc.
There is a scholar out there who thinks the Jews actually did believe in many gods, at least for a while.
Of course, I think all of this is off base for a variety of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum in the past, but that is what I have seen them argue before.
Mormons feel free to correct my sources or add to them.
MJP:
Exaltation is becoming like God.
Grace and perfection is an important topic. You are assuming that sin prevents one from becoming perfect. You reject that the power of Christ’s Atonement has power to cleanse man from sin. Which is why you say that either A) Man cannot ever preside over a world or B) Jesus sinned.
Hebrews 12:23 speaks of “the spirits of just men made perfect.” These just men did not need to be perfect (all have come short of the glory of God), but they are made perfect, as D&C 76:69 explains:
Such terminology also is used to explain Jesus’ progression. Hebrews 5:8-9:
And a key part here: he became the author of eternal salvation unto them that… what? Everyone? No, it doesn’t say that. Those that confess Jesus is the Christ? No, even the devils believe that. Those that obey him. And in that obedience, man will, from time to time, fall short of the glory of God. Never fear, for the spirits of just men are made perfect through the atoning blood of Christ. The Bible teaches that man, though he falls short of the glory of god, can be made perfect.
Mormon prophets and apostles have taught consistently that perfection is required for exaltation/salvation. JS told his followers that they needed to work out their salvation to become gods just as his god (the father Elohim) had done, and just as his god’s son Jesus Christ had done. Both the Mormon Elohim and Jesus became gods (not really sure how Jesus could be Jehovah God before he was the sinless human Jesus…) by obedience to the gospel principles of their respective god-fathers. According to Smith they had both been their worlds’ saviors. Theoretically, like Roman Catholics believe, Jesus’ atonement paid for the Mormon’s past sins and baptism washes them away. Receiving the ordinances and the Holy Ghost should actually produce righteous behavior, not just revelation and warm feelings declaring what is right and what is wrong. Don’t all humans have a moral compass? Since Mormons don’t believe in inherited sin nature but free agency, then why is every human being and every Mormon a sinner in need of God’s grace? Why isn’t the Mormon Holy Ghost producing righteous behavior and true repentance from sin? If Jesus actually commanded us to be literally perfect shouldn’t the Holy Ghost actualize that ability, or shouldn’t Mormons admit (like they used to) that perfection in this life is possible, even necessary? Also, with the billions of people that have lived on this earth throughout history the odds are that some of them would have the willpower to never sin if that was actually possible. Supposedly we have the same measure of free agency as Jesus did, right? So why has it never been achieved by anyone else but Jesus? What is the LDS answer to those questions? The Christian answer is that all men are born corrupt and are dead in their sins. Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ produces positional righteousness not actual righteousness or even the ability to become righteous. Can the Mormon experience disprove this doctrinal truth?
I’m sure there are many references to man being made perfect through the grace of God, but I just noticed another one, 1 Pet 5:10:
There are many versus and concepts in the Bible that speak of Man’s potential, to add to MJP’s list.
According to the New Testament, Man’s ultimate potential is astounding. Jesus inherits all that his Father has. As joint heirs with Christ of all that God has (Rom 8:14-17; Gal 4:4-7) we will sit with God on his throne (Rev 3:21) and with the same au- thority God gave Jesus will rule (Rev 2:26-28, Eph 2:6), and judge (1 Cor 6:2; Matt 19:28) and reign (2 Tim 2:12). We, filled with all the fulness of God (Eph 3:19) and partakers of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4) will share God’s eternal glory (1 Pet 5:10, Col 1:27), and receiving the glory Jesus had with God before the world was (Jn 17:5, 22) will be one with Him as He and Jesus are one (Jn 17:11). In God’s image (2 Cor 3:18) we will be like Him (1 Jn 3:2).
And these references don’t include what the Bible teaches about our origin, which only provides greater support, that if we are the offspring of God as the Bible teaches, the very laws of nature (and Christ’s own life himself) tell us that sons can become like their fathers.
iamse7en
Have you read the Bible lately?????
Man’s potential? MAN’S POTENTIAL?????????
Argh, this kills me, it does. I can barely stand what you are saying here.
Man(/woman) does nothing but SCREW UP.
MAN/WOMAN has no potential OUTSIDE OF GOD/CHRIST.
Any and every good thing that has ever come out of a person has been given him.
ARGH.
The divide is so wide and deep
Readers, do take note of the difference between my and setfree’s comments. I provide many references from the Bible which explicitly state about man’s potential. He infers I haven’t been reading my Bible lately. He doesn’t argue all the references which state that Man can partake of divine nature and glory and jointly inherit, with Christ, eternal salvation and sit with God on his throne. He only says that man does nothing but screw up.
I do agree with your next two sentences though, that any and every good thing we may have has been given to us from God, and that we have no potential outside of Christ. I’m not sure why you feel the need to say that. I have said, over and over, that we cannot partake of divine nature and glory without Christ and his redeeming blood. Man’s potential is possible BECAUSE of Christ. Have I ever, at any time, inferred that man can become great without God? Again, you and many others underestimate the deep and intimate reliance that Mormons have upon grace and Christ’s Atonement. It is the centerpiece of ALL our beliefs and doctrines. All tenets of Mormonism are appendages of and would be nothing without grace and the Atonement.
I think that when a disagreement arises between two parties, the one that is to blame, especially if they have no idea of how to fix their own wrong doing, often places the blame on the other one.
No more is this true than for man and God.
I think that most people see God as the party that is in the wrong, the one who has erred some how, because we cannot fix things, not even ourselves. We cannot be good enough; we don’t even try as hard as we can.
So it’s God’s fault. Why? Because it is beyond me to fix it, it becomes beyond me to hear it, to care about it.
Mormons think they are achieving some amount of holiness? By doing what? Not sinning the big sins? Is that holiness?
God has to provide our forgiveness. He has to step right into the middle of the awkwardness we have with Him because we can’t get it right, and do the one thing that needs doing… provide a way for us to simply be with Him anyway.
So we can stop fighting with Him.
He’s the bigger of the two parties. He’s the one who is right, in every argument. He’s right, we’re wrong, and yet He pays the penalty for our wrongness, so that we can still be with Him.
It’s the most amazing love story. And the LDS religion tramples it underfoot, saying “no way, man, I’m the right one in this disagreement”. How do you accept forgiveness, how do you see the bountiful goodness of the one you have wronged, unless you can see yourself wrong? Well, it’s a circle. If you don’t see yourself as a forgiven sinner, you’ll keep denying your sin against God. And if you keep denying your sin against God, you will never come to the place of being a forgiven sinner.
God is so good. So good to give us anything, much less an inheritance with JESUS FOR HEAVEN”S SAKE.
And you call it our potential?????
Our potential is to ride swiftly downhill on a skateboard of self-righteousness and pride and incomprehension. But for the grace of God…
Iamse7en, do you think Christ’s grace is complete? Do you think it accomplishes salvation on its own or is something else required?
I do not want to understate how you view grace, but I want to demonstrate a huge difference between your view of it and ours.
If you answer that something else is required, then you see the difference right away.
If it is complete in its saving power, then you have to explain why LDS have to do certain things to ensure salvation.
I say these because if it provides full saving power, then there is no need to do anything else.
I actually find it interesting that you state I reject Christ’s power to cleanse sin. To be blunt, how ignorant!
And remember, our faith is not in question on this point, it is yours. The emphasis you give on grace is in stark contrast to Maynes article, wherein he describes not a desire or effort to be perfect, but the necessity of being perfect in fact. Notice, at least in the portions quoted, that he does not say that this achived by relying on grace, but by keeping to the laws.
Which is it? Are you saying he’s wrong and you are right? If that’s the case, why are you a 70?
Are you saying there can be room for difference of opinion? If that’s the case, why should we believe any of you? This topic is no small matter.
I see your comments as wanting to have it both ways– you want to say you obey god as you are told and commanded in order to be made perfect, but that also god’s grace exists for when you don’t obey. It can’t be both ways. You either must fully keep the commands or must fully rely on grace. You hope to obey and as a fall back rely on grace.
I grant that you put a high value on grace, but even still, that is just a fall back in the event you fail. And you do fail. We all do.
Sharon,
Why should a person be honest? Does a person have no power to be honest?
How does a person fare in this life who is dishonest in his dealings with others? Why should society ever teach honesty to its members? Should the limit of one’s ability to reach perfection in this life result in society abandoning all efforts to foster such pursuits toward honesty?
What do you teach your children (if you have kids)? Do you tell them not to sweat the difficulties associated with being an honest person? Do you tell them to shoot for 70% honesty? 55%?
A person is free to limit themselves to mediocrity, never extending themselves to achieve excellence or greatness. People can live with the belief that they can never achieve such lofty goals- and they are guaranteed such results. Do you really think that is what Christ wants for us?
Do you really think Christ wants everything good that becomes of us to be 100% the result of Him? Is this true of you and your kids?
Some people seem to think that God will wave a magic wand, and presto- the saved will all of a sudden be great, holy, honest, and virtuous people. This is pure fairy tale, nothing more.
Greatness and excellence will never be an accident or come by the waving of a wand. Without exception, it is the result of persistent, unrelenting effort and the determination to begin anew after every failure.
In my experience, the evangelical does not have the intellectual power to see how such can be true while Christ’s atoning sacrifice is operative. After a gazillion discussions on the topic of works vs. grace, I have no other conclusion available.
If Joseph Smith is any model for perfection… Mormons have nothing to worry about. You can commit adultery, lie, swindle people and believe in the occult. You can break your own ‘word of wisdom’ commandment, not live your own ‘united order’ make false prophecies & pester God until he ‘changes his mind’ about his own revelations. But maybe this all only applies to the ‘prophets’ of Mormondom. For the rank & file, you better live all those commandment and do what Smith said … not what he DID. In fact, Smith said: ‘I never told you I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations I have received…” So all this blather about living up to all of Smith’s revelations … just that … blather.
Jim, that’s nice and all, but a different discussion. Greatness and excellence are good goals, but not relevant to salvation. God does not want us to be great in this world. He doesn’t object, but don’t forget his comparison of the rich man and the needle. No, what God wants is for us to be true to him, trusting completely in what he does for us.
I agree that there is no magic wand about changing behavior. Such is the story of the grains thrown on the good soil, rocky soil, and the rocks. Not everyone who hears the word or accepts it will grow into a Christ follower. Many won’t even buy, others will buy and give it a good go from the beginning but will see no change and drift away. It is these groups who seek or expect a magic wand, and they are wrong disappointed not to see it and fall away.
But magic wand aside, God does not want earthly greatness. And as Christ told us many times, it is better to live poor and humble oneself before God than to great or excellent.
You’ll agree in principle with this, I expect. But you’ll miss the point about humbling ourselves before God, which must include our putting our full faith in his saving grace and in the person he truly is. It must include realizing that he does it all for us, and that we can play no part, outside of simply accepting Christ, in our salvation.
But, does that mean we do not teach our kids to be honest? What fool would seriously ask that question?
A final thought, I implore you to find a true Christian who says there is not work or that there is no pain in being a Christian.
MJP,
“Another discussion?” It is at the core of what Sharon is attempting to discuss.
How are you defining greatness? Is being perfectly honest great and excellent? How about being virtuous or humble or loving, etc. etc. This is how I am defining greatness and excellence- from an eternal perspective.
“What fool would seriously ask” why it is necessary to teach kids honesty? Somebody who just read an article criticizing mormons for teaching strict honesty. That’s who. It is a natural question that is inevitable from this article. Do you really not see the connection?
Jim said:
Some people seem to think that God will wave a magic wand, and presto- the saved will all of a sudden be great, holy, honest, and virtuous people. This is pure fairy tale, nothing more.
Ever hear of the second anointing, or second endowment? This is the Mormon ‘magick wand’. And for HONESTY. There hasn’t been much of that in relation to the Mormon Hierarchy. They have lied about polygamy, blood atonement, adam-god, their Church history and the list goes on and on. Try teaching honesty to Mormon Church leaders who want to hide the truth, it would serve you better there than to bring it up here.
Jim, great and excellent are worldly values we put on something. Saying we are great and excellent is lifting us up based on some worldly standard. Christ does not care about those standards– he cares about how we view him.
Being honest is of course a good thing, but being good and honest is not good enough to Christ. If its not good enough, no matter how honest you are or how good you are, then there is no value in it. This is why such words and standards are meaningless.
Part of the problem with them, Jim, is that they invoke pride. It is so easy to say: “Look how honest I am!” when you are indeed very honest. I believe this is what you are doing now, to be frank. I think you probably live a very good and clean life, and you feel very good about that. And, I bet you even have a sense of pride in how good you live and how honest you are. You are thus in a sinful mindset.
Let me address the children and honesty thing real quick before sharing a quick story. The article has to do with honesty in following Christ’s commands, not in raising a child to lie. Big difference, and a fool would accuse another (who acts in good faith) of raising their child to lie.
Now, the quick story that has to do with ideas like greatness and excellence. I once heard a sermon on the “Sin of Comparison.” Basically, the idea was that whenever you look to another, either to lift yourself up or at another in jealousy, pride takes over. You are not in control, and have relinquished that to pride. Pride, as you know, is a sin, and gets between you and God. This idea that you push that honesty produces greatness and excellence pushes prideful thoughts. This idea is also supported through CS Lewis’ Screwtape Letters.
Honesty is a good thing– but being honest simply is not enough. It takes humbleness, and words like greatness and excellence are anything but humble adjectives.
Wow, how did I know that the first Mormon to post on here would bring up what iamse7en did, and that is the verse
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Seriously iamse7en and anyone looking at that verse thinking “perfect” means “without sin” or “Sinlessness”, you yourself a big favor and actually look into the greek that the word perfect was translated from.
Instead of spouting off without obviously any knowledge or research done on the word “perfect” in that verse, which is what iamse7en did, do yourself a solid and look into it yourself. I debated with a Mormon before on that word and don’t wish to go into it all again, but look for yourself.
Hint: It has more to do with being mature and becoming who God desires you to be than it has to do with obeying commandments.
Jim,
You said, ” In my experience the Evangelical
does not have the intellectual
power to see how such can be true
….”
My, that sounds rather humble. I guess it sounds
a little better than saying we’re all stupid,
oops, I mean ” intellectually challenged”.
Mike R
OJ is using the typical cult charge that the nonsense they believe is just way too complicated and deep for anyone but the truly anointed and really smart to understand. Thus elevating themselves to super smart and super spiritual levels.
Time for one of my favorite quotes, “….the more convoluted a subject, the more profound it must be” to the cult member. It doesn’t take long for the Mormons on this blog to get their backs up against the wall and run out of logical arguments so they get personal and attack either the integrity or intelligence of the Christians here who routinely hand (the Mormons) their lunch.
Now remember, these are the people who are so smart and spiritually insightful that they follow a man who had a magic rock and claimed he could see into the ground and find buried treasure.
This leader of course was the same guy who found it necessary to change the Bible to fit his own purposes. There is a fine tradition in Mormonism, as well as the other cults, of torturing the scriptures to try and find justification for their aberrant and wacky doctrines.
It seems that the Mormons have a lot more work to do on the “You can become a god too” program. I would think that if someone was going to progress to become a god, there would be a series of well defined steps to climb to achieve that goal.
BTW, when you think about it, the best route to follow would be to die, get dead dunked by the Mormons after the fact, and then progress out of your current assigned level of reward and on up the ladder to the Celestial kingdom. Even Adolf Hitler got dead dunked by the Mormons. I don’t know how he’s progressed since he had the work done for him, but he’s a prime example of what a wonderful program this truly is. Having failed in his attempt to conquer our world, Adolf now has the potential to have his own solar system. What a deal! Go Adolf!
Jim and 7, answer the question. If all men are born sinless and with free will why is it that every one of us must be taught not to lie? Did your parents have to teach you to misbehave or did you come by it naturally? Once you know about Jesus Christ and what he expects of you, why do you need to rely upon his grace to forgive your sins? You have free agency. Why do you continue to use it (the greatest gift according to the LDS) to defy God and take advantage of his forgiving nature? Isn’t this the dilema your prophets wrote about? Doesn’t the D&C say that God is not pleased with the person who continually repents, then commits the same sin again? Didn’t Jesus say, “If you love me you will keep my commandments?” I ask you again. If you have free agency why do you continue to sin? How many times will God accept your failure?
Kind of amazing that all of these plain and precious truths of men becoming gods were hidden for all that time and were then revealed to a poor ignorant farm boy with a magic rock. That’s what makes the story so compelling I guess. And the fact that it’s so unbelievable is what makes the need for personal revelation so important. Just think of the extent of the conspiracy that kept all of this “truth” hidden that even today we can’t find evidence of it anywhere in the Bible, in any extra Biblical text or even in the golden plates written in reformed Egyptian that only a magic rock could disclose and what became the BoM. Man that’s a conspiracy! Even Moroni wasn’t privy to these deep spiritual truths. My guess is that Moroni hadn’t progressed very far in knowledge and truth. The dude’s probably stuck in some lower level of Mormon heaven. Is anyone going to do the temple work for Moroni?
Just imagine how far off kilter someone’s thinking has to get in order to believe this scam of Smith’s and then defend it like their life depended on it. Defend it to the point where all reality and credulity must be suspended and thinking must enter into a suspended state. It’s all testimony to how twisted and warped a person’s thinking process can become. It has nothing to do with “smarts” but it has everything to do with spiritual seduction and the desire to believe the unbelievable. We can never discount the role of desire and emotion in the cult equation.
Falcon, I tend to think that these problems can exist without problem in a faith like Mormonism because it is based on a standard that you cannot define. Its based on faith– but what is faith. What does it mean to sincerely ask if the BoM is true? The answer is that only when you see that it is true are you sincere. But, there is so little credible evidence to suggest it is true, that is beyond the faith which is identified by the burining in your bosom.
But that is just one example. In another thread, I just described to Janet how the LDS faith is open to manipulation, because there are no standards. Revelation dictates, but whose revelation matters and when? Are present prophets bound by past ones? If not, then the faith can be bent and abused to suit the presents desires.
It also is so loose with definitions that they can be moved around and manipulated. For example, in this article, we see a lot of use of the word honesty, here in the context of following the rules. The article says that being honest is a requirement. When it is pointed out that failure to be honest means breaking the law, they then inject grace. Now, I am not sure I can adequately describe how they use grace. Its as if it is a gap filler, yet they seem to try to use it in the same sense we do.
The LDS system is so vague that it is nearly impossible to disprove outright to those who are blinded by its faith. I am curious what some of the former LDS have to say if on this idea.
MRP- I will show that being a great and excellent person is not a bad thing. You insist on defining these words as prideful and bad. Maybe you do not understand what I am saying. Get past the labels- I am talking about becoming something good and holy and desirable from an eternal perspective. Does being honest necessitate pride? Does excellence require pride? Wow- that is quite a stand.
Are you of the socialist mindset- believing that one person doing good things makes others look bad. Such a mindset leads people to advocate the avoidance of excellence and achievement. I have called this religious belief the socialist’s gospel, and for what I think is good reason.
“That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.”
“Let us walk honestly, as in the day.” Romans 13:13
“But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty.” 2 Cor 4:2
“Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.” 2 Cor 13: 7
Notice that being honest does not necessarily translate into us doing it out of pride- that is possible, but not necessary.
“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Phil 4:8
“that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour. 1 Tim 2:2-3.
“Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.”
Wait a minute- did that say ALL things?
MikeR- I said what I said because I have never heard an evangelical accurately describe our doctrine of grace, faith, and works, despite countless attempts on my part to elicit such an acknowledgement. If the inability to at least describe our concept in this matter is not a issue of intellectual limitations, the only other possibility I can see is that it is a matter of honesty. I think I am being generous by saying it is the former.
liv4jc,
We are mortals and each battle the natural man (and woman). Is there something else that isn’t clear? When has any LDS claimed otherwise here. The mindset of folks here seems to be that since we cannot be perfect from a sin standpoint in this life, there is no use trying. In fact, trying to do so is a sin. What an utter nonsensical and devilish doctrine. If we do not try to do out best, we are guaranteed to behave much, much lower than our potential. Can you see how such striving does not deny the atonement in the slightest? In fact, it shows the greatest degree of gratitude and respect for it.
Is it the EV assumption that good personal behavior must always be associated with pride? What a silly thing. You might as well say that good is bad and bad is good.
Hi Falcon,
I remember years ago that I read about, and then
experience first hand that some LDS have a
superiority complex since they’re in the process
of becoming Almighty Gods which be ruling over
others in that capacity, this can tend to make
them look down at others etc.
Perhaps Jim was just having a bad day.I like to
cut others some slack when I don’t know all the
details of what’s going on in their life.
I hear what you’re saying though about how LDS
might tend to think that non-LDS are “out of the
loop”, as far as the “deep things of God” are
concerned, as we don’t submit to their prophet’s
revelations.
( a quick note , I can’t seem to send a e-mail
to you, it’s messed up on my end, sorry )
Jim, I’ll stand behind my original position that putting the labels develop pride. This is exactly what Christ called the Pharisees out for. They went around shouting to everyone how holy they were and how closely they kept to the law, and also what he got the rich man for, who kept all the commandments. Yet, Christ said, “OK, that’s great, now go and humble yourself. You infer by using the language you do that you are exalting yourself, and not humbling yourself.
Being holy and desirable from an eternal perspective is different from describing oneself as “excellent”. Humbleness is a big deal, and I understand that from your perspective, what you are describing is living a humble life based on what you see as appropriate commands. You also have no problem calling living this sort of life “excellent.”
Indeed, it may be excellent in the eyes of the lord, but when you go around telling everyone how excellent you are, you throw it all out the window.
See, God does not care about outward appearances, even if you do follow everything to the T. He cares about your heart, and the heart should not be concerned with what others think. And that is the only place where outwardly claiming “excellence” would be important– to show others how closely you do something.
This is why I object to your adjectives, because they display an outward appearence that you are better than others. Whether you think that is irrelevant. In Godly terms, we are to humble ourselves and if we do anything to lift ourselves up in that regard and proclaim it to the world, we act for our own benefit, not God’s. If we are not actign for God’s benefit, we are in sin.
To summarize, your use of words, no matter how you mean it, says to others, “Look at me and what I have done! How excellent am I?” This is in stark contrast to the Christian view of it is better to tell the world, “I am a sinner, and only God can save me.”
Disagree all you want, but words matter.
MJP,
When the hell did I call myself excellent?
It is so difficult to talk to you people.
I can conclude nothing but that your position is that it is a bad thing to pursue an honest, virtuous, moral, and obedient life.
What of the passages I cited about being honest in “all” things?
Was Paul inciting people to be pride? How completely ridiculous.
Superiority complex? You guys are amazing.
I never said a thing about striving to be obedient out of a need to look better than anybody else or to look good to other people. I never said I was anything you claim.
My heroes and the folks whom I would most like to emulate are not well known- they are quiet, humble, honest people who go about helping other people. I suppose such a pursuit is evil in your eyes.
So the point is, “Are Mormons going to become gods?” The answer is, “No!”. Now in their own little world they tell each other deep spiritual truths that a man with a magic rock revealed to them. It’s absurd, we know, but they don’t. It’s just about a form of thinking that is cultic in nature. Only when they can get themselves free from that form of thinking will they be able to see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s frustrating of course but we keep at it.
What do you do with people that look at things through magic glasses? Just keep presenting information and praying because this is a spiritual battle that can only be won in the heavenlies as described in Ephesians Chapter six verses 10-20.
Mormons don’t want to give up the idea of becoming gods. There’s ceremonies and rituals that reinforce the idea and all kinds of ego issues that are involved including personal authority. Who’d want to give that up to be just one of God’s creatures? Delusion is a powerful thing.
Jim, is it difficult to talk to us?
I quote you: “A person is free to limit themselves to mediocrity, never extending themselves to achieve excellence or greatness. People can live with the belief that they can never achieve such lofty goals- and they are guaranteed such results. Do you really think that is what Christ wants for us?”
And, “Greatness and excellence will never be an accident or come by the waving of a wand. Without exception, it is the result of persistent, unrelenting effort and the determination to begin anew after every failure.
In my experience, the evangelical does not have the intellectual power to see how such can be true while Christ’s atoning sacrifice is operative.”
I expected you to reply as you did just now, and you really do not understand what it is I am saying. Perhaps we are talking past each other, but again, the language you chose in the exerpts I quoted suggest you do put a worldly value of excellence on being “honest”.
You also ignore the premise of my posts, and take a defensive position. From what I can gather, you agree with me that being humble is what is required, not striving for excellence. Yet, you continue to use that adjective.
For what purpose do you use the adjective? Sincerely, why? Is it because you found these verses that use the word, or is it because you think it is better to act honestly?
Keep in mind that I believe the Pharisees honestly thought they were being sincere in following the commands, as well. I bet they preached honestly and humbleness, as well. Yet, what did Christ call them? Hypocrites.
I tend to think Falcon has a point when he says, “Mormons don’t want to give up the idea of becoming gods. There’s ceremonies and rituals that reinforce the idea and all kinds of ego issues that are involved including personal authority. Who’d want to give that up to be just one of God’s creatures?”
Referrincing Jims ‘honesty’ verses a few posts back…
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put you on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. Romans 13:12-14
Jim quoted part of Romans 13:13, the remainder seems to take it out of the context of ‘honesty’ in and of itself but rather how we tend to act one way when we are in the light and another way in the dark and we are advised in the verse before and the verse after to ‘put on the armour of light’ and again to ‘put you on the Lord Jesus Christ’…so how do we cast off the night? Put on Christ righteousness, follow him and do not allow any ‘provision’ (A stipulation or qualification, especially a clause in a document or agreement.) for the flesh. In other words do not plan or allow for the chance to follow your own will because our flesh is ALWAYS sinful (Even Paul said he continued to do the things he didn’t want to do, the things of the flesh driven by the sin living in him Romans 7:15-17)
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them. 2 Cor 4:1-4
Jim again gave us a little snippet (wait, did I use that word right) of the statement of renouncing dishonesty but left out the context…they have a ministry because God had mercy on them (not because they wer
so spiritual) they are straight shooters with God’s word so that the people they share the gospel with understand and if they don’t understand it’s because Satan has blinded it them to the simplicity of being made 100% righteous because of Christ’s death and resurrection. Granted this can be used by both sides of the camp but it seems to me to be an indictment against the Mormon religion which seduces converts with half truths because honestly laying out the whole package from conversion to temple rights to celestial exaltation lest they not ‘buy into it.’ I know I know milk before meat, they wouldn’t understand the rest yet but honestly just because I can’t comprehend quantum physics doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t tell me it exists. After all, if Jesus speaks thru your church and those that are his know his voice then someone who God is calling to be saved in the ‘one true church’ would know that it was of God regardless if they understood it all yet.
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which you have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Phil 4:7-9
Paul starts this off by advising the Philipians to not be anxious, but make your requests known to God and he will keep you safe; in other words you don’t need to worry about what is going to happen make your prayerful requests to God and then trust in his sovereignty and keep putting on prayerful foot in front of the other.
Then we come to Jim’s verse, Paul doesn’t say ‘Do these things with all your might’ he says to ‘think’ on these things. In the context of anxiety Paul is telling them not to dwell on the bad stuff going on or the things that go wrong (this is where satan loves to cast shadows of doubt on God or our standing with God by playing on our insecurities) but focus on the true, honest, just, pure, lovely, virtuous, and praise worthy things happening to keep your heart from being anxious and casting doubt on God’s power (since one bad things can easily snowball in our minds and wipe out a laundry list of good things) He ends by saying those things which they have learned, received and seen him do are the things they need to do (since this is another verse and a whole other sentence it does not imply that the list of things to ‘think on’ is the same list that they are to do. It implies that Paul has taught them and led by example in his time there and they need to remember that to grow in their walk (not to become more saved) and he ends with a reminder that the God of peace will be with them. Starts with their anxieties and ends with the promise that the God of peace will be with them.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:1-4
Prayers be made for ALL men, special mention for those in authority (not just Christians but for everyone, every where) so that we may lead a quiet, peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. Now taken in the context of these verses it looks like this is a hope for a place where living honestly and godly does not cause one to be thrown in prison or persecuted (given it does say the word honest but it also talks about a society that is impossible as well so while living peacefully among the world is hoped for it’s not likely just like never faltering in our honest godly lives is hopeful, it’s not likely) God our Savior is pleased with this, it is acceptable just like your kids behaving is acceptable to you but when they don’t (because they are kids and they won’t always) they are NO LESS your children. It is acceptable to God because it’s initially who he created us to be in the garden but since we live in a sinful world it’s a way to be evidence of God to those who do not know him. We aren’t good for our own salvation, we are good for the salvation of those that are lost because God ‘will that all men to be saved’
The conclusion, as I see it, the verses supplied by Jim do not prove God’s trust in and requirement of us to reach a level of 100% honesty but rather a guide trusting God’s sovereignty, find our strength in Christ not in ourselves (because our flesh is sinful and we are weak to it), share the gospel, and be salt and light to a lost world all by putting our focus on Christ and not our next merit badge. Nothing is ever mentioned about gaining favor, or degrees of glory and since these words are written to those already in Christ they are not a means of salvation in any way shape or form. Because your child is either yours or they aren’t; when they succeed do you make them ‘more’ your child then when they do not? It’s not possible.
So it is with God. Once you are adopted into his family your are as much his child as you ever will be, not because you deserved it, but because he died and rose again to make it possible. I am as much God’s child today as I was when I was saved at 11, as I was when I was wayward at 23 and as I’ll be in the years to come.
If there is still a maximum amount of daily comments allowed I’m sure I just met it. If so God Bless and I’ll see you all tomorrow.
As a Christian, I believe in what John Wesley called Christian Perfection, which is being made perfect in love. The passage, “Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect,” must be understood from the context. Jesus is talking about loving our enemies and doing good to those who hate and persecute us. But, before we can really grasp what is happening here, we must have a biblical foundation about God and us. We were created in God’s image, which the Hebrew word used connotes character. Adam and Eve were holy before they disobeyed and sinned. They fell from the state of holiness, which we call the “image of God,” and brought sin into the world. Since that time, God has been working to bring us back into the “image of God” that is His character. So, when Jesus says, “Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect,” it is a call to be perfect in love–which is the epitome of God’s character. This work is not a work that we can achieve on our own through our own behavior, and I think this is where Mormonism struggles; rather, it is the Work of the Holy Spirit–and that Work is called sanctification. I think our dilemma is that Mormons believe we can merit righteousness on our own, while Christians believe any righteousness we have is Christ’s righteousness imputed and imparted to us. So, it’s not that OJ is wrong when he argues for living lives of obedience, it’s just that Mormons perceive such a life as a prerequisite to salvation, while Christians perceive it as a result of salvation and living a Spirit-filled and Spirit-empowered life. We will more-than-likely sin along the way–BUT we don’t have to sin. But, when we do, God’s grace is sufficient to cover us. Ultimately, our eternally life does not depend on any principle, honesty or whatever, but depends on the risen LORD, who redeemed us through His death on the cross and through the resurrection! All we have to do is believe that Jesus is the very image of God’s love and grace.
Blessings…
I would like to see some other verses about being perfect, maybe if we let Scripture interpret Scripture we could gain some understanding. Mormons quote that same verse over and over – now, all Scripture is valuable and is God-breathed, divinely inspired and has been preserved for us through God’s power – so I am not denigrating that verse – Scripture is the very voice of God speaking to us, I just think we need some context. What else does God say about this? How is perfection achieved according to the Bible?? I am going to do a search and see what I come up with:
Matthew 5:48
“You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” – this is the verse most often quoted. Is Jesus preaching the LAW or the GOSPEL here? It is the LAW – we must be perfect to achieve salvation through the LAW. If we are NOT perfect, the LAW cannot save us. No one, other than Jesus, has lived a perfect sinless life. The LAW says you MUST be perfect. Are you perfect?
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” What’s happening here? The rich young man was proud that he had kept the LAW. Jesus pointed out to him that he had not kept all the LAW – to be made perfect by the LAW he must sell everything and follow Jesus. He went away sad because Jesus revealed he had not kept all the LAW. Rather than repent and ask for mercy, the rich young man went away sad, downcast in his sin. Once again, Jesus preaches the LAW not the gospel, and reveals that no one is saved by the LAW. Jesus is forcing people toward the Gospel by preaching the LAW.
2 Corinthians 12:9
“But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” Here we find God’s perfection WORKING in US, making us PERFECT in OUR WEAKNESS!
(con’t)
This is a different kind of perfect – a perfection imputed to us by God – not coming from within us, but given by God’s mercy. The power of Christ rests upon us in this state – wow, the power of forgiveness and redemption through Christ.
Galatians 3:3
“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” What is this verse about – well, folks that were saved by the grace of God were looking to works for continuing in their salvation, and ultimately for their salvation. This Scripture is saying that it is foolish to think we gain anything by works of the LAW that contributes to our salvation in any way. As a matter of fact, if we think the law is perfecting us by our own good works, we negate the gospel and make it of no effect – we must PERFECTLY fulfill all the LAW in that case (just like Jesus said and yes, it’s still impossible to do).
Those are a few I found when looking at Scripture and how it treats perfection. Don’t think for a minute you are saved in any respect by your own perfection – that’s a lie that will lead you away from Jesus to focus on yourself and your good deeds. You must ask for mercy, or go away down cast as the rich young man – condemned in your sin and still seeking your own perfection/salvation through your efforts.
Forgive my ill formed thought, it’s early here and this just popped into my head…
Christians are following God’s lead, as best we can, without attempting or desiring to gain anything, no higher degree of glory, or rewards in heaven. Mormons are following God’s lead and a bunch of extra biblical laws in attempts to gain bigger and better rewards in the next life.
Christ’s message was love they neighbor as theyself and love God with all your might…what is loving about following the rules to reap the rewards? If there were no hopes of being exalted in heaven how many Mormons would tow the line with the WoW and temple rights and mission work and home family night and tithing and fulfilling callings…Show me someone’s motivation and I’ll show you their idol.
MJP,
Yes- it is difficult to talk to the EVs here- they will twist words to the greatest degree possible to corner LDS into unfavorable representations. I am reminded of a verse about making “a man an offender for a word.”
Anyway- I think you and I will simply have to disagree. I think that not only is it possible to achieve excellence without pride, I think it is a commandment and what the Lord intends for us. You see excellence as a prideful, evil thing. I think we are expected to be the greatest people we can be, and you cannot see any other possibility than that such a pursuit means lifting ourselves above others. You see it as public, I see it as private.
In all my posts, I have intended to suggest such a pursuit in a context of following Christ and being holy people. You seem to think that such an idea is not possible.
You must see America as an evil place as a result of its history (not as true anymore) of fostering personal accountability and the pursuit of greatness in the individual. Or maybe you see no connection between the two ideas.
I consider people like Mother Theresa, Ronald Reagan, and George Washington excellent people. Not because they were famous, but because they sought to live the lives God wanted them to live. There are countless other examples, but these are the ones with which you will most likely be familiar. Were these bad people in your eyes? Do you think their levels of excellence were bad or a matter of chance?
Bottom line- I think Sharon’s position on honesty is not only against biblical teaching, but plain silly and defeatist. How can a person become an honest person if he does not set the highest goals of honesty? (of course he will need repentence in the process of perfection). But if the goal and standard is never set, it will never be achieved.
OJ,
So what is your motivation for being 100% obedient to the commands of honesty (or any other command for that matter) and how do you know when you’ve met your potential?
Rvales, thank you for your additions. When you say, “Show me someone’s motivation and I’ll show you their idol,” I think you hit the nail on the head. Jim does not seem to understand that there is a difference in striving for being as good and holy as possible, and shouting it out to the world.
Now, Jim, there is a difference between shouting it out to the world and striving for excellence. We do not think one should not do the best he can in all he can, and set high standards in his faith, his family, with his friends, work, hobbies and every aspect of his life.
We only suggest that we do so without the pretense of excellence to world. When people see that we are proud of what we do, they see exactly what I accuse you of, and of what rvales asks– a motivation of something other than to serve Christ. They then think you are no different from anyone else, and even worse for thinking you are.
I know you think that this is how you act and what you believe. But its not. You haven’t addressed this claim and have only defended you goal of excellence. Its not about the excellence, its about holding yourself out as excellent. And that you have done, and that is something Mormons have a reputation of doing, especially when compared with Christians.
But as long as you have the goal of godhood in mind, and as long as you are able to lift yourself up among your peers you will continue to do so. You justify this by saying Jesus calls us to be good and holy, and we should emulate everything he did. But you ignore his warnings to give up everything you have and no matter how good you have been at keeping the law that is still not good enough.
Paul describes our best actions as filthy rags. Its hard for me, then, to hold myself up as excellent in the eyes of God when Christ tells me that my works aren’t good enough until I have sacrificed everything, and when Paul describes them as filthy rags.
MJP,
You have read into my posts that I advocate “shouting out to the world” personal excellence or holiness, etc. I have never advocated such a thing to any degree. Why do you assume that about me? Which is worse, having a proud heart or judging another’s heart as proud? I think they are the same sin.
My argument is that I should be as excellent and good and holy and Christlike as I can be- to reach my greatest potential for such. I never said anything about comparing myself to anybody other than myself or showing any of these things to others. MJP should be the very best he/she can be- independent of others’ abilities, achievements, etc. Does this make sense? I do not understand the difficulty in seeing this.
rvales- good question.
There are many motivations that contribute to a person’s desire to do anything, including follow Christ.
I try to be obedient because it is a commandment. Not too complicated.
I also acknowledge the reality that the Lord blesses those who follow Him.
I also obey out of gratitude for what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have done for me.
I also recognize the sociological, emotional,and even physical benefits of obeying God’s laws.
I can’t claim even to know perfectly what proportions of my desires belong to these categories. I think it varies from time to time, and I think I am no different from any other human in this regard.
How do I know when I have met my potential? I don’t know. I doubt anybody ever really feels they have met their potential in this life. At least not accurately or appropriately so. I think that time will come when we see Christ and are judged.
It is hard to believe one receives such strident criticsm on a supposedly Christian blog for advocating obeying Christ. Prejudice does funny things.
Jim, I said you will agree in premise with my statement. I have no doubt that you agree with that, but I question the practice of your belief.
This comes from your own words, which I’ll quote some again here: “A person is free to limit themselves to mediocrity, never extending themselves to achieve excellence or greatness. People can live with the belief that they can never achieve such lofty goals- and they are guaranteed such results. Do you really think that is what Christ wants for us?”
And, “Greatness and excellence will never be an accident or come by the waving of a wand. Without exception, it is the result of persistent, unrelenting effort and the determination to begin anew after every failure.
In my experience, the evangelical does not have the intellectual power to see how such can be true while Christ’s atoning sacrifice is operative.”
I interpret what you say here as including an outwardly goal of being excellent. There is no discussion of humbleness in here– its all about being great. Nothing there expressly states that you are about outward appearance, but your lack of attention to humbleness before God is concerning and leads me to the direction I have gone.
Also, even in this last post you focus on how good you can be. Its still about you, which is an aspect of this that has been overlooked– my greatness, whatever there is, is not my greatness. Its Gods. Its not about me, its about my reliance on Christ to do everything for me. Unlike you, I put my faith in Christ to guide me and I cannot do anything good without him. You advocate your own efforts in becoming excellent, and that is a huge difference.
I know you will say you do not advocate that, but you have done nothing to show otherwise. You also have not addressed the filthy rags and Christ’s admonition to the rich man, nor his critique of the Pharisees.
Real quick– do I know I have met my potential? Yes!
OJ, I think that we are all speaking past one another. Living a life of obedience is what we are called to do. In your last post you said that you obey out of gratitude for what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have done for you. That’s Christian motivation, not purely Mormon doctrinal motivation (we’ll leave out the nature of HF and JC for another discussion). The point I have been trying to stress is that LDS doctrine says that you have free agency. You have as much free agency as Jesus Christ did. LDS doctrine does not teach that man has a corrupt and fallen nature. 1 Nephi 3:7 says that God has never given a command that you cannot keep. Your failure to keep the commandments is based therefore, not on your inability to keep the commandments, but on your refusal to be obedient. Let’s not forget that your Gospel Principles manual clearly teaches by quoting from Spencer Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness and D&C 58 that if you have truly repented, you will stop your sins and forsake them. You have the agency to do this. Again, LDS doctrine as taught in the GP manual clearly states based upon D&C 82:7, and Kimball’s interpretation of LDS doctrine, that if you repent of a sin and then do it again, Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held accountable for their former sins. Because you cannot stop sinning you must make a choice. Either your exaltation will be based upon your perfect repentance, or in the end completely on God’s grace, since every time you sin all of the penalties for your former sins become your debt to pay. This new squishy LDS teaching on relying upon God’s grace is Christianity (albeit perverted Arminianism and Pelagianism), not foundational Mormon doctrine, and your church teaching materials still reflect that. You and most others in your church are rogue, believing in forms of salvation doctrine that suit your beliefs and desires, not what your church says you must do to be exalted.
This is the problem I have with Mormonism. Everyone knows that it is impossible to meet the standards that are actually laid out in the teachings of the church. Instead of realizing this, and realizing that the men who dreamed this stuff up were also unable to keep their own standards, everyone acts like they are doing the program and accomplishing it. They are all lying to themselves and to everyone around them. This is why the doctrine of works plus grace has slowly crept into church tradition even though it has no basis in doctrine. That is also why the GA’s constantly have to remind the members that they cannot become lax and only rely upon grace and mercy. When a Mormon is reminded of the actual doctrinal teachings and standards for exaltation the fear and guilt drive them to fervent works and greater commitment to the church. It’s just like raising children, though. Children are obedient when a parent takes the time and makes the effort to discipline them. When a parent becomes complacent or tired and slacks off, the children slowly revert back to their previous disobedience. When discipline is once again enforced, order is restored for a time, but being vigilant is hard work. Mormons work for a time, then slack off when they get tired. Christians go through this same cycle. When we are in the word, praying, and surround ourselves with Christian friends it’s easy to be obedient. When we become lax in our walk our lives don’t reflect Christ the way they should. Christians however truly have grace as foundational doctrine. We know that our lives are going to have hills and valleys, but Christ’s imputed righteousness levels them out. This is grace, and our works do nothing to assist in this leveling. Mormon doctrine does not teach reliance upon grace alone, nor does it purely teach works plus grace. It teaches that once perfection has been achieved, then grace covers those sins you committed on your way to perfection. But can perfection ever truly be achieved?
MJP,
You said of my posts “I interpret what you say here as including an outwardly goal of being excellent.” That is your choice, but I have never said such a thing.
A person once said that self-mastery is being hard on ourselves but soft on others. That is my mindset in discussing these things. Your tangent about boasting and outward appearances may make it easier for you to dismiss what I am saying, but we are then talking about two different things, just talking past each other. And it seems you would rather do that then really consider what I am saying.
None of my posts you quoted supports your argument that I am advocating arrogance or pride. Is it possible to have self-control without pride? What role does self-control have in your religion?
liv4jc,
You said “The point I have been trying to stress is that LDS doctrine says that you have free agency. You have as much free agency as Jesus Christ did. LDS doctrine does not teach that man has a corrupt and fallen nature.”
Yes- we do have moral agency- the ability to choose for ourselves. If we do not have agency, then God is the author of our sins because he made us from nothing. You have no way around that conclusion if that is your stand on agency.
You are wrong that we don’t believe man has a fallen nature. How do you explain these verses in our canon:
“Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.” Mosiah 16:4
“And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins.” Alma 22:14
“all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.” Alma 34:9