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Ex-LDS Jay Graham, Saved by Jesus Christ
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23 Responses to Ex-LDS Jay Graham, Saved by Jesus Christ
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That was really an interesting and unique testimony.
My daughter is twenty-three years old and one of the things I made sure of as we were raising her, was that she was “cult proofed”. I did that by providing her with a lot of information on not only the doctrines of the aberrant and cult-like groups but also their prospecting and seduction techniques.
It’s really important that people have this type of information and knowledge because groups like the Mormons thrive off of ignorance. If someone sounds confident of what they believe and can express it clearly people will assume what’s being presented is true. The Mormon missionary presentation is all about developing a “feeling” within the prospect and then leading the prospect to equate the feeling with a spiritual message from God. However, if someone knows the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and understands the emotive techniques being employed by the cult missionaries, they are well armed to resist their ploys.
God was faithful to Jay. Having been born again Jay was able, when exposed to Biblical Christianity, to see clearly the truth of the Gospel from the lie of the false gospel of Mormonism.
The story of Mormons coming out of Mormonism is the story of God’s faithfulness to all people. We have to trust that He is working in the lives of every single human being to bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Sometimes, we can get frustrated on this site when Mormons display their devotion to JS and their other leaders, protecting them at the cost of their own personal relationship with God and their own salvation. When I hear stories like this, it reminds me that God is indeed working to save the Mormons. Praise His Holy Name for His desire to be in a holy and loving relationship with us!
Peace and Blessings…
Good to hear from you again jackg.
I still am amazed at the Mormons who study the Bible and the light goes on and bango, they get it! And their “getting it” is not as a result of an emotional feeling. They studied the Scriptures and through the Holy Ghost their minds and spirits were illuminated and God provided them with the faith to believe.
The beauty of faith in Jesus is that people can be free from the oppression that religion often brings. Mormons are stuck and are slaves to a system that has convinced them that they need the LDS church in order to secure their slot in the Celestial Kingdom where (at the door) they will get their ticket punched by Joseph Smith in order to become gods.
As Christian we stand at the cross of Christ and put our trust in Him for the gift of eternal life. Mormons put their trust in their own abilities to do enough to become gods. Never having been indoctrinated into Mormon thinking I don’t know what it’s like to have to battle out of the maze. So it’s easy for me to get impatient with Mormons. But they are trapped in a system that keeps them enslaved. Once they get their thinking flipped, they can get free from the oppressive rule bound tread mill which is Mormonism.
Hey Falcon!
I’ve been having internet problems at home, so have been struggling to get into the discussions. Mormons will more than likely discount this guy’s testimony. They’ll find something wrong with his character, or his weakness in faith, or whatever, in attempts to minimize what he has to say. They’ll probably parade some convert who left Christianity for Mormonism, and then we’re into something that will just get ugly. The problem we have in the discussions is the lack of cogent reasoning from the Mormon side. Their logic tends to make one scratch his or head and say, huh? Anyway, this young man’s testimony is beautiful, and it’s always great to see what God is doing.
Peace…
Scholars,
I am fairly confident that if you add up all the non-LDS Christians who join the LDS church and compare it to the number of LDS who leave for other Christian churches, the number of the former is greater by a significant margin.
What does this prove? To quote jack, “it’s always great to see what God is doing.”
jackg- what a reasonable, believable, and supportable statement- “the problem we have in the discussion is the lack of cogent reasoning from the Mormon side.”
I have found that those who know the least about the arguments and primary evidences are the first to claim those on the other side of the argument have thinking that is clouded by dark spirits or have been affected by “mind-control” manipulations. This sits well with your pseudo-intellectual faith, but is the ultimate cop-out and requires no thinking.
I have made endless attempts to dumb-down what I feel were fairly straight forward points and concepts on this blog only to find that too many LDS critics cannot follow the logic or have no apparent interest in exerting the mental energy to look outside their talking-point based rhetoric which the majority of them get from second and third hand sources.
Don’t mean to be nasty- but “cogent reasoning” isn’t a term I would use to describe the posts from you or falcon.
Olsen Jim,
I think you are right that the argument of “x converted to y,” therefore y must be true is a fallacious argument. Many in the middle east have converted to Islam. Islam is a spiritually destructive lie. Churches that preach a feel-good, self-righteous, self-centered message grow and abound, while those that faithfully preach Christ and Him crucified for our sins many times struggle. For a fact, I know your argument of those converting from “Christianity” to Mormonism is greater than those doing the opposite – otherwise Mormonism would have done the impossible and created negative space or anti-matter. Mormon converts almost exclusively come from those with at least a nominal Christian background, therefore, by the very nature of the world and reality it would be an impossibility to have more coverts leave Mormonism than people who covert to it – unless those born into the Mormon religion begin to outpace the nominal Christians converting to the LDS religion. God in His goodness is faithfully calling His people out of all falsehood, giving them faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and saving them by His mercy and grace. If you read through the Old Testament, it’s apparent that God is not into numbers, but people like Jay Graham – His people whom God redeems. It is great to see God doing His work.
I’d like to remind our friend OJ that the Mormon church has a miserable rate of retention when it comes to their converts/members. Two-thirds on the membership are inactive and I’ve read that the drop out rate for ex-missionaries is at fifty percent. We hear stories of converts (continuously) who didn’t know what they were joining when they joined the LDS church. So we need to ask why is it so necessary for the Mormon missionaries to use a stealth approach in trying to win converts?
Here’s the point about Jay. Reading and studying God’s Word brought him out of Mormonism. He used a correct view of the Bible and the Holy Ghost to guide him and it became apparent to him that Mormonism is an aberrant and heretical cult. I agree with mobaby when he says that most converts to Mormonism probably have some nominal Christian ties. This proves nothing since most of them, I would guess, probably think they’re joining a religion much like the one they were raised in.
I think Jay’s testimony tells us a lot about God’s sovereign grace and points to the concepts of fore knowledge and election. Ephesians chapter one gives us a glimpse into this concept. What we need to remember is that God chooses us, we don’t choose God. Ephesians 1:4-5 tells us that God choose us, He predestined us according to His own will and that we have redemption through the blood of Christ. Ephesians 1:11 that the predestination is according to God’s own purpose. As the result of the gift of faith, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit who is a pledge of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14.
This can be a hard concept to wrap our brains around but Jay’s testimony indicates that he was born again by the Spirit of God. Unknowingly, he walked into Mormonism, which has nothing to do with the God of the Bible. Then, through diligent study of the Scriptures, he had a light bulb moment or moments and realized that the Mormon religion did not acknowledge the God that he (Jay) had prayed to previously. So God led Jay out of Mormonism and he is now testifying to Mormons about who the real God is and what His plan of salvation entails.
I believe many Mormons will come to Christ through the ministry of Jay and his band mates.
This is priceless:
“Reading and studying God’s Word brought him out of Mormonism. He used a correct view of the Bible and the Holy Ghost to guide him.”
But of course. It is without question that converting to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints requires one to NOT study God’s word and to use an incorrect view of the Bible and to dismiss the Holy Ghost.
Glad we cleared that up.
Purely “cogent reasoning.”
None of us have a completely accurate view of ourselves, but please, at least make an attempt folks.
Here is an article called the Rise and Fall of the LDS Church (it may not be what you think…):
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/riseandfalloftheldschurch.htm
Happy Fourth of July to all! – johnny
Saved By Jesus Christ.
I guess that would be a pretty intriguing concept for some of our Mormon friends. What does “saved by Jesus Christ” mean to a Christian. It means first and foremost that we need a Savior. We are separated from God because of our sin. The Bible is clear that like nature begets like nature. Paul writes in Romans that just as sin entered the world due to the sin of Adam and Eve, so salvation came through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
In order for Christ’s shed blood to be effective however, it must be accepted by faith and hence applied. It’s a free gift that God offers us. We don’t deserve it. We can’t earn it.
It should be added that there’s one God through whom this gift of eternal life is offered. The multiple gods of Mormonism are nonexistent and thus can’t supply any type of salvation no matter how much a Mormon wants to believe it and no matter how diligent he/she is in trying to lead a good life to earn it.
God knows our condition and through his love and mercy extends to us this precious gift of eternal life.
So a Mormon, in order to get right with God, must first acknowledge that he is the great I AM. The One, only, everlasting, unchanging Heavenly Father. He manifested Himself in the person of Jesus Christ and made of Himself an offering for our sins. By receiving this gift of eternal life through faith we are spiritually born again. The Holy Spirit indwells us as we are regenerated.
This is the only pathway to the Father. There is no other way.
During the last presidential election cycle, I watched Mitt Romney confess on an interview program that he had “accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Savior”. The implication of his proclamation was that he was a Christian. Later, when asked about what Romney said, Joel Olsteen said that if Mitt Romney had made that confession, who was he Olsteen, to question it.
A couple of days ago, I was watching an interview that John Dehlin had done with Shawn McCready. McCready has caused a stir among some in the Christian community, especially those in ministries to Mormons, with his book “Born Again Mormon”. McCready talked about how in his despair, he had pulled his car over and turned his life over to God. He remained in the Mormon church for four more years at which point he requested that he be excommunicated.
His point is that during the four years from the time of his confession to God and when he left the Mormon church he was “born again”. Thus the title of his book “Born Again Mormon”. So there’s two point here actually. The first is, “Can a Mormon be born again?” and the second is, “Can a regenerated Mormon stay in the Mormon church?”
To me it comes back to that very basic of questions: “When a Mormon says he/she is born again, who is the God by whom they are claiming this status?” It makes a difference!
If a Mormon is claiming that they are “born again” by faith in one of the pantheon of gods in the Mormon universe and his son Jesus, who is the off spring of this once man turned into god and one of his wives, that is just coopting Christian sounding language and applying it to Mormonism.
A person can only be truly born again as a result in faith in the One and only God and His Son Jesus who is the physical manifestation of the Godhead. To be born again, the Holy Spirit indwells and is the cause of the spiritual regeneration of the believer. In Mormonism there is a Holy Spirit likened to a force like electricity and a Holy Ghost who is another one of the Mormon gods
So claiming “born again” status isn’t the same thing as being born again. The only way someone can be truly born again is to put their faith and trust in the One God of the universe (Isaiah 43:10) and in His Son Jesus Christ. The Mormon pagan god does not exist. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. God is the only one who can demand retribution for the sin of mankind and only God can satisfy His own requirements for holiness and justification.
Professing evangelical sounding language does not get one born again. Faith in “a god” doesn’t meet the requirements set by God through which a person obtains the gift of eternal life.
So if a Mormon wants to be born again, they have to first reject any notion of a man who became a god and belief in a pantheon of gods of which they themselves think they will be apart of. Placing their faith and trust in God and receiving the gift of eternal life through faith in the shed blood of Christ applied to their sins will cause them to be born again. Now, can they stay in the Mormon church? Often times there are a lot of entanglements that aren’t easily untangled in a moments time. These might include familial relationships, occupational status and a cultural comfort level. We know that for many Mormons it takes time for them to catch-up to their new spiritual reality.
I for one would find it difficult to continue very long in a religion that denies the God who provided me with new life and the promise of salvation. However God works his miracle of transformation out according to his own time line and purposes. Sandra Tanner talks about the slow process that her and Gerald went through in leaving Mormonism. She encourages patience.
Grindael,
I appreciate the link.
Although the ubsurdly biased prose is distracting and the sources (Saints Alive) are laughable, some of the data provided was interesting.
I have suggested before that the BOM contains fundamental elements and prophetic information that few people fully recognize or understand.
The BOM actually states that the gentiles in America eventually will largely reject the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. After this rejection, the Lord will cause some great (meaning monumental, not necessarily pleasant or happy) things to happen in the country and in the world.
It has been my belief for the past 20 years that the church’s growth will slow as a result of affluence, apathy, secularism, and immorality in society.
I also believe that after slowed growth, events will occur that will bring enormous numbers of people into the church.
Neal A. Maxwell, in reference to the number of people joining the church, said that, in essence, what is now a trickle will eventually be a flood.
Critics see any sign of stalled growth in the church with glee, thinking this means the church is failing or that it means it is not true, etc. In reality, it has all been foreseen and predicted.
Olsen Jim,
Isn’t it a given that either the Mormons or Scripture believing Christians are correct? Both cannot have the proper view of Scripture. Both cannot be correct. Either Jay was led by the Holy Spirit out of Mormonism or he wasn’t. Based on what Scripture says and his testimony to that truth, I know he is being led by God into the truth. Lot’s of people “study” Scripture and twist it to their own destruction. Those who approach God’s Holy Word with a predetermined idea or theology and then attempt to make it fit using proof texts to do so by isolating verses, and then twisting those to fit their ideas, rather than saying, what does it say? This is God speaking to us, we better listen and not try to make it say what we want.
Church growth is neither a testimony to it’s truth, nor a confirmation that it is false. If the Fundamentalist LDS continue to grow it does not make them true. People are born fallen and sinful, and left to our own devices, we will join groups and participate in religions that have limited truth, and know nothing of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Taoism is the largest religion in China, that doesn’t make it “true” for the Chinese people. Buddhism is popular in Japan – Buddha does not lead people to saving faith in the finished work of Christ.
If unregenerate people join a false religion, they are still unregenerate. Leaving Mormonism does no one any good unless they are brought to faith in Christ. If stalled growth in Mormonism just means people are turning away from a false religion to no religion or atheism it is not doing them a bit of good, though God may be working on their hearts to bring them to the truth.
Mobaby,
Of course both LDS and non-LDS Christians cannot both be right. Either I am correct, you are, or neither of us.
By the way- you speak as if LDS are not “scripture believing.” That type of thinking and language certainly helps a person feel comfortable with their position- but it is intellectually extremely sloppy. I can just as easily say you are not a scripture-believing Christian.
I just watched the video testimony from Jay Graham and have to say, judging his testimony by the same criteria by which EVs here scrutinize LDS, there is absolutely nothing worthy of remark in anything he says.
I cannot judge his heart and I take him at his word as far as his intent and belief. But his testimony could be summarized by saying: I was a drug addict, then joined the mormon church which I believed to be true- my life changed and I became a better person. Then I was led by a friend to a different understanding of the New Testament, and now I think the mormon church is not true.
Wow- monumentally convincing. Again, don’t mean to be petty. But if I or another LDS provided a similar testimony, we would be shredded here. You do notice his testimony was based of feelings, falcon.
I find it interesting that so much weight is given to a testimony of a guy who joined a church because its name included the words Jesus Christ, and the fact that he met the missionaries while he was trying to change his life. Not exactly a highly scrutinizing personality if what he says is true.
Again, just some thoughts based on the concept of avoiding double-standards.
Jackg said ”They’ll probably parade some convert who left Christianity for Mormonism…”; “Lot’s of people “study” Scripture and twist it to their own destruction. Those who approach God’s Holy Word with a predetermined idea or theology and then attempt to make it fit using proof texts to do so by isolating verses, and then twisting those to fit their ideas, rather than saying, what does it say? This is God speaking to us, we better listen and not try to make it say what we want.”
Falcon said ”I still am amazed at the Mormons who study the Bible and the light goes on…”; “Here’s the point about Jay. Reading and studying God’s Word brought him out of Mormonism.”
OK, I’ll bite with this one with the way the conversation is going on here.
We had a new convert in my ward a couple of months ago. He wrote his testimony and stuck it on the notice board with thanks to all in the ward involved with his conversion process to the truth. In his story he related how he grew up in the Anglican Church, studied Theology and the Bible through university and prepared to become ordained a minister in the Anglican Church. He met the missionaries and through further study of the Bible and the BoM and prayer he came to the conclusion that the teachings of the Anglican Church and university from the Bible were incorrect and the LDS church was true.
So here we have someone who has had all the study of the Bible in the Traditional Christian way and found out for himself that it was incorrect by the power of the Holy Ghost. This totally negates the comments made above by Falcon and Jackg (and others throughout other blogs on MC) when they say a proper study of the Bible will tell people that the LDS church is not true. In this case, it told him the LDS church was true.
Ralph,
I wonder how this is possible: “this totally negates the comments made above by Falcon and Jackg (and others throughout other blogs on MC) when they say a proper study of the Bible will tell people that the LDS church is not true. In this case, it told him the LDS church was true.” Mormon doctrine is not in Christian Scripture – it simply is not there. Sure, a feeling of some kind may lead someone to reject what the Scripture says and follow after something else, but it cannot be said that Scripture lead anyone to believe in Mormon temple works, God was once a man, Heavenly Mothers, temple sealing eternal marriage, a finite god – but eternal matter, etc. None of these things can be found by studying Scripture – it simply isn’t so.
OJ – I qualified the Christians as Scripture believing – there are all kinds of folks who call themselves Christians.
I am wondering if OJ and Ralph would consider me a prophet since I predicted what they would do. Hmmm…
I am one who am looking for reasons that Mormons can be considered saved while in their state of believing false teachings about God. I say this because they are really good people. But, their theology is backward. One example of this I give is that regarding grace and works. The Mormon believes works merit salvation, while the Christian believes salvation inspires works. In the Mormon view, one MUST obey; in the Christian view, one WANTS to obey. That is why I refer to Mormonism as backward theology. So, can a Mormon be saved in their current state of backward theology? I want to say “yes,” but I don’t see how. What the backward theology does is puts the Mormon in a position where he doesn’t really trust Christ for salvation. He trusts his own works. The Christian trusts Christs totally for his salvation, and acknowledges his works as filthy rags, which is a biblical view of our works. So, OJ and Ralph, in whom are you putting your trust? You can’t say Jesus and remain a Mormon. If you do, you’re not really being honest with yourselves or with us. Remember, you’re the guys who say that grace is added to our works, that Jesus makes up the difference we can’t achieve. That line of thinking is contrary to the biblical text. I pray you will come to see the truth and totally trust in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ for your salvation.
Peace…
Ralph,
That’s an interesting testimony. Back in the day, I had an Episcopalian mentor that I would discuss theology with. He had a lot of indirect influence in leading me to a much more liberal take on Christianity (you know, with that denomination’s history with latitudinalism and open-mindedness). He himself remains fairly traditional/conservative, but diversity in opinion is practically the hallmark of the Anglican church.
I’m not trying to find dirt on his theological stance, but I’m really curious about what he was taught from the Anglican university that he disagreed with. If you’d rather email me, I’m comfortable with that
Jack,
You are not a prophet.
It is just that your argument and the implications of this video testimony in the context of this blog are so obviously wanting. The reply isn’t predictable because of a issue with mormons. It is predictable because the primary argument is so shallow.
As far as your take on my belief on faith and works- you are way off. But I do not believe there is anything I can attempt to communicate to you that will change that. Am I wrong?
OJ,
Do you know my gifting? Do you know what a prophet does? How can you be so sure I’m not a prophet?
Praying for you, as always…