Upon hearing the Christian Gospel message, people are sometimes offended at the idea that everyone, themselves included, are sinners. The fact that the Bible is the source for this designation (Romans 3:23) doesn’t usually hinder a quick accusation that the bringer of Good News is being judgmental.
A similar misunderstanding is common when the biblical doctrine of hell is presented. To illustrate, consider Jews and Mormons blogger Mark Paredes’ August 3rd (2010) post titled, “I’m Going to Hell? Who Cares?” He begins by quoting a reader’s comment from a previous post: “Mormons and Jews have something in common if they don’t repent and surrender their lives to Jesus Christ.” Mr. Paredes writes,
“As the above quote makes clear, the subset of Evangelicals who believe that Jesus-denying Jews are going to hell after they die almost always believe the same about Mormons (they claim that we worship a “different” Jesus). Condemning people to hell is not in the Mormon lexicon; we teach moral principles, but the consequences of sin and transgression are God’s to impose, not ours. [We also don’t believe in a traditional concept of hell, but I digress]. When these people call down hellfire upon the heads of Jews, Mormons, and most of the world’s people unless they accept Evangelicalism’s Jesus, Mormons dismiss their condemnation as unauthorized, presumptuous, and doctrinally flawed. We certainly don’t believe that Jews and other non-Christians are going to hell, and we don’t like to be lumped with those Christians who do.” (Brackets in the original.)
Again, the message that is being objected to here–that those who worship a false god, or who try to merit heaven by their own works, or who dismiss Jesus’ sacrificial atonement as God’s only provision for cleansing from sin, are “condemned”–this message is God’s Word to a fallen world (Romans 6:23, John 14:6, Revelation 20:15). Christians are not condemning Mormons or Jews or anyone else; they are merely delivering the message they find in the pages of Scripture, and that according to the command of God (Matthew 28:19-20). Christians agree with Mr. Paredes on this point: “the consequences of sin and transgression are God’s to impose.”
To say that Christians “call down hellfire upon the heads of Jews, Mormons, and most of the world’s people” merely by sharing the biblical Gospel message is wholly unwarranted. I can’t speak for all the Christians Mr. Paredes has come in contact with, but generally speaking, Christians share the Gospel with unbelievers because they don’t want them to go to hell.
Which brings me to the title of Mr. Paredes’ post. “I’m Going to Hell? Who Cares?” I do, Mr. Paredes. And in the name of Jesus Christ I tell you that God says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us; for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him!
Are you offended, Mr. Paredes? This is God’s gracious and merciful word to you–indeed, to all of us. Are you offended, Mormon reader? Are you offended, unbeliever? It might offend you, for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. If it offends you, then God offends you. If God offends you, I plead with you to repent and believe in the gospel.
——
Scriptures quoted in the last two paragraphs above: Romans 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 9:16, 10:9, 10:11-12; Hebrews 4:12; Mark 1:15
For more information on heaven and hell, click here.
Terrific post, Sharon
When i first started doubting mormonism i opened my mind to understand the Gospel being preached by those who called themselves born-again christians. I´ll never forget a talk i heard where the preacher used the law to make me feel like the worst person in the world. When i was feeling miserable he then started preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ(the true one, found in the Bible – not the one created by Joseph´s imagination), i was ready to worship Jesus with all my heart, because He alone took upon Himself the wrath of God that should have fallen on me.
That´s the true Gospel, Christ crucified, risen again on the third day, repentance and forgiveness of sins – but Mormonism takes away the grace and glory of God stabilishing a new law, and the church keeps their members in a spiritual desert without water or food. The spiritual experiences in the mormon church consist on temporary feelings of peace and joy, that wear out shortly after the meetings.
“I’m Going to Hell? Who Cares?”
Well, if your hell is something so great that "if people saw it they would commit suicide just to get there"(Joseph said that but i can´t find the quote), so of course you wouldn´t care. You´re going to suffer for your sins during the millenium and then your´re FREE!!!!! Yeahhhhhhh
For mormons the next life is going to be just like this one – it´s only a difference of status. They will have the full glory of the gods/priesthood(just as today they have the full "truth" and true "priesthood authority" and the rest of the world is in ignorance) and the rest of mankind will have boring lives in paradise-like kingdoms.
Sorry for the long posts – but i ´ve got to post another one.
I don´t understand why that guy says “I’m Going to Hell? Who Cares?” That´s completely hypocritical!
They have thousands of missionaries telling people everywhere that if they don´t repent and accept Joseph as a prophet, the Book of Mormon and get baptized in the "one true church" by the proper "priesthood authority" they won´t ever live with God again!!!?!?!?!
How can he say that? That guy propably served a mission and told that to a lot of people, and probably read this scripture to them:
"For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;" (D&C 19:16)
When i served a mission i had a couple of Jehovahs Witnessess tell me i was going to hell, but i didn´t get upset about it because i thought they were actually the ones going there. That´s why he doesn´t care.
A couple of points. I think what the guy writing the "I'm going to hell" article is doing is called setting up a straw-man so he can knock it over. There is obviously a lot of disdain on his part towards evangelical Christians. I'd be curious as to who he thinks evangelical Christians are. This would be in contrast to what, born again Christians or say Catholics? I would remind folks that Joseph Smith was a product of evangelical Christian revivalism and that Grant Palmer points out that the preachers in the BoM sound an awful lot like revival preachers of the 19th century.
I'm a product of all sorts of Christian traditions including a stint as a Catholic growing-up. What I know is that I'm not in the business of judging someone's soul but I think we can observe behavior and judge someone's character.
A person has to do a whole lot of ignoring the Bible in order to miss the Gospel message which includes a place called hell. So for Mormons, they don't like the message so they change it. I don't think it's very loving, caring and compassionate not to tell people what the Bible says. This isn't a matter of interpretation.
If there's no penalty for ignoring God and rejecting His plan of salvation, what was the point of Him becoming a man in the person of Jesus and dying a terrible death on the cross (to pay the penalty for sin)? God, being God, could just declare everyone righteous and in the process saved Himself the indignity and suffering of the cross. I must admit, this hell business is a terrible thing to contemplate. But ignoring it or trying to find a loophole wherein hell doesn't exist, is denying reality.
Too many "happy talk preachers" now days avoid the sticky business of sin and hell. They would do well to read Johnathan Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God". It was such a convicting sermon that it was said that people used to hold on to the pillars inside the church while Edwards was delivering it, for fear of sliding into hell. He wasn't a fire and brimstone preacher. He just delivered the message and people would come under tremendous conviction.
One of the biggest lies of Mormonism is that there is no hell. I can see why Joseph Smith did away with it given his penchant for committing adultery and fornication.
From Christian History Vol. 4, #4.
Johnathan Edwards is best remembered for preaching the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." which greatly affected the congregation. The sermon is often held up as an example of the Puritans' pathological obsession with hell and a God of wrath. In truth, the sermon, is a devout appeal to repentance, made to an audience that had no doubts about the reality of hell and a God who would judge mankind. Edwards' sermons typically spoke more often of true love and joy of the Christian life. Edwards was a far cry from the stereotyped ranting, gesturing evangelist. In fact, Edwards' soft, solemn voice did not lend itself to loud tirades……His words were full of ideas, set in a plain and striking light….few speakers have been so able to demand the attention of an audience as he was. What Edwards lacked in oratorical gifts he made up for with Scripture based sermons that presented with logic, integrity, and vivid word pictures the need to cling to God.
*The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, that the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet, it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you close your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arouse in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up.
*O sinner! consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as many of the damned in hell….
*And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands calling, and crying with aloud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north, and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in the hope of the glory of God. How awful it is to be left behind at such a day….
People wouldn't tolerate this type of preaching and truth today. The fact of the matter is that we are loathsome, pitiful creatures who are separated from God because of our sin and are in fact in danger of a place that is too terrible to contemplate. What can be the view of God towards a people who reject Him and declare themselves gods? A people who turn their backs on His sovereignty and will and change the message of salvation for a false gospel. It really is crunch time for Mormons. Will they continue to reject God, His Holy Word-the Bible, and His message of salvation for a false gospel that will lead to eternal separation from Him.
It is a truly frightful thing to contemplate, sinners in the hand of an angry God. So Mormons simply skip along happily thinking they have found a restored gospel ignoring the reality that this restoration cannot and will not save them. They have offended God and no amount of excuse making on that day will save them from His wrath.
Sharon – Very good post.
The message is the same truth that every single person must realize. I am a wretched sinner, incapable of saving myself. In His mercy and grace God has sent His son to be my redeemer. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ! Trust not in any of your own works, for we can do nothing to please God, He has done everything – including create the faith to believe in our hearts.
Fact is, apart from Christ, we are all condemned to hell and can do nothing to save ourselves. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.
More from Johnathan Edwards, "Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God".
Isaiah 66:23-24
"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die: neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul' and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. ……Oh who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is!…….How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in danger of this great wrath and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious, they may otherwise be."
Mormonism is a religion of false hope. It's one where men suppose that if they do enough of the right rituals and immerse themselves in works, that they will pass from this life into a blissful existence where by they will rule as gods and engage in perpetual sexual procreation with goddess wives, creating the minions that will adore them for eternity. How foolish can they be? This is the lie that Lucifer has told them and intoxicated by the very thought they labor in the vineyard of futility; not producing fruit, but tending a garden of weeds, thorns and brambles.
"Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God. However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in you families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it." (Johnathan Edwards)
Being born again first means knowing God. A substitute god will not cause someone to be born again no matter what feeling may be attached to a religious experience. There is but One God, One Spirit and One Christ. Piety and sincerity count for nothing if they are not the result of a true conversion and acknowledgment of the God who alone can save. All religions of the world do some good. All religions of the world provide some form of "spiritual" feeling. All religions of the world promote a code of conduct. It is all worthless and without merit in God's economy.
My reaction to reading this blog post and the comments to it is that I am certainly glad that I am a Mormon. I am certainly glad that my Heavenly Father does not have a place of eternal punishment for anyone. I feel sorry for you, Ms. Lindbloom, and your commenters, because you have a God that is sending all of the Jews, Mormons, etc., etc. , etc. to your Hell. I feel sorry that you will spend your eternity in your Heaven with your God that is so monstrous that He would send me to your Hell because I am a Mormon. Yes Ms. Lindbloom, you do offend me. Yes, Ms. Lindbloom, your God does offend me. I would rather be a Mormon headed to Hell , than to be you and headed to your Heaven. Murdock
“And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well–and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none–and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance” (The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 28:21,22).
The thing that bugs me is when People say, You offended me or thats offence. I hate to break the news to you but someone some where will be offended by something.
If I share Christ it will offended someone, But on the other hand if I refuse to Share Christ then that will offended someone, it is almost a no win postion.
Plus Mormons telling people that they have the true Church implys what they believe is wrong so they themselves are offending someone.
Would you rather be offended and then see the truth and go to heaven, or not be offended and then not hear the truth and go to hell?
Also even if people are offended by me saying your going to hell, they then need to take that issue up with God, For God created hell not me, and God is the one that said your going to end up in hell for rejecting me. I am not the one who said that, God did.
Mormons also need to remember, they do have a form of hell that people go to, it's outer darkness, so they could be offending people by teaching that.
Murdock,
Thanks for your comment.
Your god and Ms. Lindbloom's are obviously different gods.
Your god is one of many, he's a son and a grandson and a great grand-son, he's a father and will be a grand-father and great-grand father god.
Ms. Lindbloom's god says that He is the ONE AND ONLY real GOD.
These two scenarios are obviously mutually exclusive. There cannot be just one real god, and also many many gods.
Therefore, at least one of you is incorrect.
If you are correct, Ms. Lindbloom will be resurrected into a lower glory after this life – a paradise so wonderful she'd be temped to kill herself to go there if she could see it now.
If she is correct, you are going to be eternally separated from all that is good and lovely after you are judged guilty of all the sins you have committed against God Almighty, including, of course, rejecting Him personally.
I urge you to dig into your Bible, and really study, and see if the God of the Bible that Ms. Lindbloom worships is the real god
or if the god that Joseph Smith taught people to worship is the real god.
Praying on your behalf to the God of the Bible…
Once again, Bill, it's easy to prove that Mormonism is not "Mormon". I know that we were rebuked for this earlier, so please forgive me, but "Mormonism" is really, "Smithism", "Youngism", "Taylorism", "McConkieism", or any other "ism" that serves to console the Latter Day Saint and allow him to deny what the Bible clearly teaches. Modern Mormons are forced to deny what the BoM teaches about God, because their faith quickly moved away from its teachings as Joseph sought to assert his influence as a prophet instead just a man who was called to deliver "the ancient record of the descendants of the Jews" when it became apparent that he was not going to make any money off its sale.
That's pretty funny, because of all cults, Witnesses definitely don't believe in Hell.
Murdock, I suggest you read Romans 1 through 4 with a clean mind. Romans 1:16-32 convicts you for being the person that you are. Instead of giving thanks to God (who is not your Heavenly Father, because He has not adopted you into his family yet) as your creator, you have chosen to make a god you are comfortable with in the image of a former man. Your god can be appeased by your works of simple faith in the "gospel", your baptism, your sacraments, etc. The God of the Bible says that because of this He has turned your darkened your foolish heart and left you to degrading passions from your fallen self. For the works you do you deserve death. God is waiting for you to repent and has given you the Law (Ten Commandments) as a mirror to see how sinful you are. Romans 3:21-26 gives the true good news. God set His Son, Jesus Christ, as a satisfaction for the penalty you deserved for your sins. By Christ's death your sins (for which you deserve God's righteous punishment, which is Hell) are covered. If you confess, repent, and place your faith in the Jesus Christ that bought you with His sacrifice, you will be saved from the penalty of sin. Romans 4 tells you that you cannot work for it. It is the truth.
Murdock,
When we each are on our death beds, perhaps incapable of even talking or breathing without help and must have someone clean us, and take care of our every need, at that moment I think it should become crystal clear to all that apart from the mercy of Christ, apart from Jesus redemptive work on the cross, we have nothing, can do nothing. As death closes in, no one has any hope save the mercy of Christ. As in death, in life, we have no hope other than the mercy and the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.
"…sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow…"
Interesting, why is there a distinction between soul and spirit? Don't most churches teach that these are the same thing? I finished reading a book on esoteric teachings which say these ARE different, but its been lost. In addition, there is a rite called "chod" in tibetian buddhism. Is there any parallel between chod and the chrisitan tradition at all?
Sharon,
There are two issues that I can see.
First is the issue of the appropriateness of one person telling another person that he or she is going to hell. Mormons, along with many others, find this to be very self-righteous and judgemental. While it is fine to believe we understand the criteria for entering heaven vs. hell, it is a completely different matter to sit in judgement of another person. In fact, in doing such a thing, we are claiming the authority of God. As Christ said, "judge not, that ye be not judged."
In saying this, I do not deny the existence of a hell. I simply find it arrogant for people to claim the authority to make this ultimate judgement.
The second matter is that of defining "hell."
From the LDS perspective, there are four definitions for "hell:"
1. A person can experience a form of hell in this life. This is the result of open rebellion against God. A person experiences the emptiness, shame, and despair associated with such behavior.
2. The spirit world will be a hell for those who knowingly reject the gospel and do not accept Christ and His offering for them.
Christ said that this “suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink….. I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.” D&C 19.
This suffering will last until the debt to justice is paid, which occurs before the resurrection.
3. Those who do not live with God in the Celestial Kingdom after the resurrection will experience a form of hell. This results from willingly forfeiting the opportunities offered to live with the Father, Christ, and the saints. Living for eternity, even if in a pretty decent place, away from Heavenly Father will be a form of hell.
4.Outer darkness, reserved for Satan, his angels, and those who become sons of perdition will live for eternity in a form of hell- outer darkness. I do not think we understand this type of existence. But we know it exists.
I know you will disagree with our beliefs and theology, but we clearly believe in hell, even if it is defined differently from the traditional lake of lava in which people burn.
Why can't I leave longer posts? Very tedious.
That was a great reply to murdock. It seems he has unfortunately run into some one who
has been overly judgemental with him. When he stated that he was glad that God does
not have a place of eternal punishment for anyone, I immediately thought : has he read
his Book of Mormon lately ?
Enki,
In the LDS teachings we mainly delineate between soul and spirit (As I said MAINLY, sometimes people don't). What we teach is that there is the physical body and the spirit body; when combined they are called the soul. Does this help?
Enki,
You asked about Hebrews 4:12.
I've seen a few discussions about whether a human is bipartite (body + soul) or tripartite (body + soul + spirit, citing Heb 4:12). I can't recall any denomination go to war with itself over the issue and, personally, I don't think it's the focus of the Bible. I don't find it difficult to read Heb 4:12 as figurative rhetoric rather than a clinical diagnosis of human nature, and I note that the passage is actually about the efficacy of the Word of God. The writer is using a metaphor that's foreign to us (a razor-sharp sword) to describe something that's unerring in its division, as a warning against either ignoring it or obeying it insincerely or hypocritically.
I don't know about the Buddhist rite you mention, but I would I would be concerned at any attempt to divide a person's constituent parts (body, soul and spirit). My reading of the Bible is that God is only ever concerned with the whole person, and the person as a whole. I don't see any support for "let's treat the spirit one way, and let's treat the body entirely differently" per gnosticism, for example.
Back on topic, Hebrews 4 provides a good example of how the Bible speaks about judgment. There's no mention of Heaven or Hell here, but there is a division between those who "enter the rest" (Heb 4:3, quoting Psalm 95:11), and a warning against failing to do so. You should notice this scenario is described in the context of the Exodus narrative – those who have faith in God enter into the Promised Land (which is the promised "rest" that's described in Psalm 95:8-11), and those who don't "fall short" (Romans 3:23). In this context, "heaven" equates to the destination of a journey of faith (entering God's "rest", finding a home in His Kingdom, living in the "place" where He resides), whereas "hell" equates to Israel's sojourn in the desert (endlessly wandering in a hostile environment, having no home, being shut out from God's presence).
The contrast is so great, the Bible defines one as "life" and the other as "death", which makes sense when you consider that God is the source of all life.
Just some underlying thoughts here about why people often object to the idea of hell.
As Sharon rightly points out, its an offensive thought to anyone to think that they might be destined for eternal damnation, but that doesn't make Hell any more or less true (any more than wanting to go to Heaven makes Heaven any more or less true). Since when did "offensiveness" become a measure of the truth of something?
And, there are plenty of un-Biblical urban myths about what Hell is, which Christians should be concerned to dispel.
But, is it also because people expect religion to be affirmative and cossetting? Where did this idea come from? Yes, Jesus loves you, but don't you mess with the One who rides out as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who will rule the nations with a rod of iron, and will judge them with the sword that comes out of his mouth (Rev 19:11-21).
Finally, I'm with Sharon on one important point that Mr Paredes does get right – the armies of Heaven who follow him don't execute the judgment – they don't even contribute to it. They are there to witness His judgment as He "treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty" (Rev 19:15).
I didn´t know that then. That´s the reason i remember it though – because the lady gave me her "15 second discussion" and after that she told me "now you know the truth, if you don´t do anything about it you will go to hell".
I didn´t know much about the JWs at that time, it was in the beginning of my mission – otherwise i would have asked her about it – but now that i come to think of it, it was probably a scare tactic
This comment brings this scripture to mind – D&C 123:12
"For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it"
Oh, the irony.
This subject is so important that Jesus himself made sure to warn the Apostles about false prophets and deceivers – Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
If it is ok to believe whatever version of hell you want regardless of the true one spoken of by Jesus and others in the scriptures, i don´t think He would bother warning His disciples at all…
"Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment."
2 Nephi 28:23
The problem is that the words of living "prophets" and "apostles" are above older scripture(the BoM and the Bible) – so even if the Book of Mormon clearly talks about hell, and a "prophet" says that it only means a temporary state of suffering, that´s how people will interpret it, regardless of what it actually says. The same happens in regards to the nature of God, and judgement/second chances in the afterlife, etc.
They offend the ex-mormons alright – they call them "sons of perdition" that will spend eternity in Hell with Satan.
I love these verses in Matthew 11: 4-6
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."
Christ seriously offended the religious leaders of His time, and told them they would be destroyed for rejecting Him, which happened in 70 AD. The misery that the Jews went through during those times is something extraordinary and millions of people died – just read "War of the Jews" by Josephus.
even though God loves us deeply, He´s also a just God who hates sin. The Old Testament shows us how severe He is in His judgments – he drowned everyone to death in Noah´s time in judgement just for starters.
If Christ hadn´t taken upon Himself the wrath of God´s judgement for us, we would all be going to hell – it doesn´t matter if people are offended by it… and if people reject that and rely upon their works, which were just their duty, and think that their "righteousness" will keep them safe from God´s wrath – they´ll have a horrible surprise.
"First is the issue of the appropriateness of one person telling another person that he or she is going to hell. Mormons, along with many others, find this to be very self-righteous and judgemental."
I agree with you, but you also have to agree that you do that yourselves as well. You do have your clear requirements to become an exalted being, and if a person doesn´t meet those requirements they´ll go to a place that is not Heaven.
So, the second you set requirements for Exaltation, you´re immediately judging the entire world based on those requirements – those who don´t meet it (non-mormons and jack mormons) are immediately out of Heaven. For a Christian, if you´re out of Heaven you´re in Hell, so at the end of the day you´re telling everyone they´ll go to "hell" if they don´t subscribe to your religion just the same, and it doesn´t make a difference how you define it.
Jim Says:
"While it is fine to believe we understand the criteria for entering heaven vs. hell, it is a completely different matter to sit in judgement of another person. In fact, in doing such a thing, we are claiming the authority of God. As Christ said, "judge not, that ye be not judged."
Rick B answered that very well:
"Also even if people are offended by me saying your going to hell, they then need to take that issue up with God, For God created hell not me, and God is the one that said your going to end up in hell for rejecting me. I am not the one who said that, God did. "
It´s not a matter of judgement, it´s a matter of preaching the Word of God and what it says. The same way you "judge" non-mormons by telling them they won´t live with god again if they don´t receive the "Gospel Ordinances" by those with "proper authority" – you´re not judging them, you´re just communicating your message.
I myself am not very well acquainted with the subject(soul vs spirit) but i was reading an interesting article a few days ago:
"Hebrews 4:12
On the radio program already referred to, the Bible Answer Man was asked if he would "explain Hebrews 4:12, where it says that the soul and spirit are to be divided by the Word of God." In reply the Bible Answer Man relayed "the explanation given by a very great Greek scholar, Dr. J. Oliver Buswell." According to Marshall's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Hebrews 4:12 reads as follows, "For the Word of God is living and operative and sharper beyond every two-edged sword and passing through as far as division of soul and of spirit, both of joints and of marrow, and [is] able to judge [the] thoughts and intentions of a heart." The Bible Answer Man gave a rather long and confusing explanation of the use of soul and spirit in this verse, but the conclusion and essence of his explanation was that "the soul and the spirit are two forms of the same thing." When asked how the two could be divided from each other if they are in fact the same thing, he replied, "You are missing the point." But he himself never did explain what the point is in the verse which says that the Word of God divides the soul from the spirit. The point is very simple: in man there is the realm of the soul which is natural, and the realm of the spirit which can receive, appropriate, and understand the things of God. These two realms must be clearly divided asunder so that man can know the difference between the realm of the soul and the realm of the spirit. It is the living Word of God penetrating his being which makes such a division and which separates these realms from one another."
source: http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bi…
Please feel free to correct the quote above if anyone here has better sources or understanding of it.
Why can I not post messages that are of any length?
Very frustrating.
f_melo,
You are not getting the point.
When do mormons tell any other that he or she is going to hell? I have never seen this.
I have seen EVs on this site tell others, including me, many, many times that we are going to hell.
There is a huge difference.
While we may know some of the criteria for entering the celestial kingdom, judging who meets those criteria is the difference. When do you know that somebody has truly "rejected God" as you suggest?
The difference is I make no claim to judge your heart or that of any other. At least I don't claim to be in a position to determine who has had a clear, genuine opportunity to understand the true gospel and who has rejected that opportunity.
EVs take the crusade mentality in judging others. If a person doesn't appear to agree with the EV on what the EV feels is important, the EV apparently feels comfortable claiming the infidel is going to hell.
Bottom line- we believe that every person will receive the opportunity to understand and accept the gospel message at some point- either in this life or the next (this does not mean people get a "second chance"). I am wholly unqualified to know when another person has truly had that opportunity and choice and understanding. We all have different environments and biases and influences that make it impossible for mere mortals to balance it all out onto a truly even playing field in judgement- that is God's place.
"The difference is I make no claim to judge your heart or that of any other. At least I don't claim to be in a position to determine who has had a clear, genuine opportunity to understand the true gospel and who has rejected that opportunity."
I agree with you on that 100%. Only God can know one´s heart.
So, what you´re saying, in other words is that accountability for accepting or rejecting the gospel depends on the level of understanding that person has of it? That´s what i understood from your post – correct me if i´m wrong.
"EVs take the crusade mentality in judging others. If a person doesn't appear to agree with the EV on what the EV feels is important, the EV apparently feels comfortable claiming the infidel is going to hell."
In this case – you have to check if the criteria is based on the Bible, not what anyone feels is important – it´s not a matter of personal opinion but what the Word of God(Bible) says. There may be some disagreements on minor issues, but nothing that takes away the merits of Christ, or the true nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and nothing that adds to what Christ did on the Cross – that´s my opinion.
In this case, you also missed the point in the sense that you have to differentiate between personal opinion and preaching what the Bible says – If the Bible says those who don´t believe in Jesus are going to Hell and i tell that to a Buddhist, i can´t be charged of judging him or his heart, i was only communicating God´s message. I didn´t say we are all sinners, God did through the Bible.
You say:
"When do mormons tell any other that he or she is going to hell? I have never seen this."
You don´t have to actually utter the words "you will go to hell" to tell someone he is going to hell. That happens on the mormon church every sunday, when, for example, a Stake President says that those that won´t do their temple work will put in jeopardy their salvation. It´s the same thing, just in a very polite, soft manner.
just like i said in my post, if you tell someone that according to your criteria he´s not going to Heaven/Exaltation, it´s the same as to tell him he´s going to hell(whatever the definition of hell can be applied in this case).
Olsenjim,
What if you don't tell a person they are going to hell, but rather tell everyone they are going to hell? We all stand before God condemned for our rebellious sinful selves. Apart from God's mercy and declared righteousness through the cross of Christ – God's imputed righteousness, we are all separated from God, eternally, without Christ.
Enki,
In most cases where 'soul' is used, the LDS church teaches that the body and spirit combined make up the soul. Sometimes it is used synonymously with spirit or body, but from what I have been taught it usually means both together.
You who are quoting 2 Nephi 28:23 need to read Nephi's words before that at 2 Nephi 9:10-12. There, Nephi explains that "death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits." Thus, the "hell" of which Nephi writes is a place where spirits dwell for a time and from which they are delivered when they are ready. This includes the spirits of even those who have committed grievous sins such as your damnable belief in infant baptism, Moroni 8, your damnable hireling clergy ("priestcraft"), 2 Nephi 10:5, 26:29; 3 Nephi 16:10, 21:19, 30:2, and your damnable preaching of false doctrines, 2 Nephi 28:15. Murdock
Mr. McKeever: Please see my new comment re Nephi's references to "hell". Then, in light of your misleading post, consider: "Woe unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. " 2 Nephi 9:34.
Murdock
I can remember when I was offended by the idea that God would allow anyone to go to hell. I think the JS doctrine that everyone is already a child of Heavenly Father (because they are his spirit children) was partly to blame. After all, why would a perfectly wonderful and loving father purposely take away your memory of the pre-existence, send you to this life and make it so hard for you, and then in the end, when you see him again, be able to do the very unfatherly thing of casting you out? You can see that the notion of family "rights" is involved in the Mormon view of hell.
However, when you see God for who and what He truly is – and realize, we've done everything possible to offend Him, and yet He continues to be merciful and patient… and when you know that you are not even His child until you accept the FREE GIFT He suffered to make available to you… well, it works to help you understand hell and how God could let anyone go there
Set Free by JC, when you mentioned , " …the notion of family rights is involved in the Mormon
view of hell…" , it reminded me of an article , " An Ever-expanding Hell " [ S.L.C. Messenger.
# 70 ]
Joseph Smith at the time he translated the BM believed in the orthodox position on hell.
A few years later he seems to have changed his view: " While J.S. tried to destroy the
Biblical teaching concerning hell, his doctrine of eternal progression seems to create
a hell which is infinitely larger than the mind is able to comprehend.The Mormon hell
in fact, turns out to be a place or places of punishment which will continue to claim
captives at an increasingly greater rate throughout all eternity."
To begin with
Mormonism teaches that the devil and his angels , together with everyone else, were literally the children born to Heavenly Father [ HF] and Heavenly Mother [HM] , they were all originally part of the family in heaven. However many sons rebelled and were cast out , this amounted to one-third of the family [ D&C 29:36-38 ] . LDS prof. EugeneEngland mentioned the 80 billion or so people demographers compute will have lived on earth by 2000 A.D. [ Dialogue winter 1987 ]. If 80 billion came to live onearth and one-third were consigned to hell, that would number about 40 billion" sons of perdition ". " While Mormon apologists criticize others for believing in the idea of eternal punishment of the wicked, their church's own doctrine has already consigned 40 billion or more of God own spirit children to eternal damnation. This however is just the tip of the iceberg. If the doctrine of ' eternal progression ' is true , this same thing has already happened
on innumreable worlds…… "
The worse thing of all is that according to Mormon theology the couple who aspire to Godhood will
probably have to send billions of their own spirit children to an eternal hell. This same process of having
spirit children to populate worlds is suppose to continue throughout eternity. So the Mormon
doctrine of eternal progression would create an immeasurable of number of sons of perdition.
" Joseph Smith's attempt to evade the biblical teaching concerning hell led him into such a state of
confussion that he ended up creating a hell which looms as an ever expanding black hole sucking
in a third part of the spirit children of worlds innumerable to eternal destruction. "
Oh, the irony!
Misleading post? he just quoted a verse from the Book of Mormon. go figure…
Are you trying to say that "and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell" is talking about a temporary place? Well, if all the Devil does is to take people´s souls to a temporary place, i don´t see why people should be worried about it at all. Impressive twisting of "scripture"!
"your damnable hireling clergy ("priestcraft")"
You have got to be joking us. Hey, how do your apostles, prophet and first quorum of seventies survive if they have to work full time for the church? What about your CES guys? Don´t they get paid, even if it is a "small" allowance?
The same way many pastors decide do dedicate their lives to preaching the gospel, and they and their families need to be fed, to have a place to sleep, medical care, etc. – so it´s no different than your hired institute teachers, or your hired top general authorities.
3 Nephi 14:5 – "Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye."
How would God test somebody who adores Him greatly without taking away our knowledge of him in the pre existence. I believe that after this life we will be comparing our life and will a lot of our questions answered.
Murdock merely reveals that the teachings of Mormonism are alien to the biblical text. It's true that Mormons don't have a biblical perspective regarding God. It's sad that Murdock would rather go to hell than to believe in the true and living God. To be offended is a choice, and a choice that is not rooted in biblical teaching. To be offended requires repentance.
Praying for Mormons
Murdock
You're trying to appeal to a fictional writing to prove your argument. It can't work. Sorry.
Praying for you…
Murdock,
You don't understand Christianity. You don't understand the things which you condemn.
Praying for your lost soul…