On June 27, 1844 Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet was shot and killed while imprisoned at Carthage Jail in Illinois. Bill McKeever explains the greater historical context of this event in “The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith.”
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Helen,
You and some others were debating the issue of polygamy under the topic of petty doctrinal differences.
How do you respond to the issue of JS being married to other married women? God did not tell him to do that.
What about JS condemning polygamy, yet in the next breath practicing it? That would be like me saying, it is wrong to rob banks, but while I am publicly saying that, I am secretly robbing banks.
Helen,
According to Bill, Much well known information is never willingly spoken or shared with people. If it is only mentioned when we bring it up, that seems to be really deceitful. you claim your here to “correct” error on our behalf.
So please fill me in why your church uses what appears to be such deceitful practices. Satan does that, God the father does not. Jesus did say about some people, your father is the devil. It seems I know who JS father was because the church uses the practice of the father of lies, not the father of love.
Good job Bill!
This will have a positive effect on those Mormons who have started to figure out that all is not well in Mormon-land and are on their way out the door. Faithful Mormons are compelled to ignore the character and history of Joseph Smith because the truth about him will destroy their faith in Mormonism. I can see where the Mormon visitors to the Carthage Jail will get a real turn on to the white washed narrative that paints Smith in this heroic light.
What needs to be remembered is why Smith ended up in jail. He was there because he was suppressing the truth about his life style (i.e. adultery) in a very violent manner. The Mormon church continues this ruse with their romanticized version of what led to Smith’s death. The fact that the tour guides know the truth but testify to a lie says volumes about Mormonism generally. The only way a faithful Mormon can handle all of this is to either deny it, rationalize it, or come up with far fetched explanations that sound too much like “the dog ate my home work” excuses.
What happens to a person emotionally when they’ve invested their whole life in a ruse thinking that it’s true? There’s a role in confidence schemes that’s called “cooling the mark”. The mark is the person who got conned and someone has to hang around to “cool” them off. This is an aspect of Mormonism that is used to make things all better when folks find out the truth. Someone has to “cool” them off because it can be quite shocking and demoralizing to find out you’ve been conned.
It’s amazing how the tour guides had to back track when Bill asked them a couple of penetrating questions. You wonder how they can keep giving the tour knowing that they are lying to people.
Bill,
Thank you for putting this out there! If I would have seen this 4 years ago, I wouldn’t have a clue what you were talking about. I had no idea that Joseph Smith had a pistol. I had no knowledge that he was a practicing polygamist. We were taught in Primary, Sunday School, Young Womens and even Relief Society that polygamy started with Brigham Young and the move West because there were so many widows and they needed husbands just to survive back then. I had no knowledge of the Expositor or the fact that they were going to expose Joseph’s practice of polygamy. I had no knowledge that Joseph ordered the printing press destroyed and that it was in fact destroyed. I had no idea that Joseph had broken laws and that is why he was in jail. It’s so crazy to me how the LDS place Joseph Smith on such a high pedestal. It’s like he did no wrong. I can’t say that I did that as an adult when I was still in Mormonism. I always had a weird feeling about him. I didn’t have the faith in him that other LDS seem to have. The fact that the tour guides at Carthage Jail don’t tell the truth isn’t all that shocking to me anymore. It seems that the truth doesn’t matter at all to a church who claims to keep the Ten Commandments. Whatever happened to Thou Shalt Not Lie? If the LDS church doesn’t tell the truth about this, how can anyone know when and if they are telling the truth about anything? Mark Hoffman comes to my mind. Mountain Meadows comes to my mind. I am so glad that God led me out of this dishonest cult. “The truth shall set you free” is so true! I’m loving my new found freedom in Christ!
falcon,
Yes, sadly, I was a “mark”. What happened to me emotionally for the first year of researching is something that I never want to experience again. I’ve never felt so much anger in my life. I felt as though I had wasted 40 years of my life. 40 years without the true and living Christ. What I now realize is Christ was always there with me. He loved me even though I was being brainwashed and I believe he knew I would get to where I belonged. I no longer have all that anger, although some things still make me a little irritated. I also wonder how those tour guides give those tours knowing that they are lying to people. I also wonder how Thomas Monson can get up in front of millions twice a year and claim that he is the mouthpiece of God. He knows full well that he does not speak directly to God. I guess the dishonesty starts at the top.
Kate,
Don’t look at the years that were lost to you in Mormonism. Look at the time you have left in Christ, eternity.
Context is everything and Bill does a good job of providing it in his presentation. The frontier was wild and violent even for civilized people. I visited Virginia City, Montana a few years ago. It has quite a history. It was the territorial capital of Montana and right after the Civil War many flooded the area prospecting for gold. It was pretty lawless and finally some citizens formed a vigilanty committee and just started hanging offenders. In one day they hung like a half a dozen people including the corrupt sheriff.
I have a book around here someplace that talks about that era. I believe the title is “A Decent and Orderly Lynching”. The title comes from an incident in Salt Lake City where a black man, accused of raping a woman was dragged through the street, brutalized and then lynched. The editor of the Salt Lake paper lamented that lynchings needed to be decent and orderly affairs.
So the idea of the mob and the Carthage jail and the big shootemup on both sides is not all that surprising given the time and the circumstances.
Another topic that’s been white washed by the Mormons is the handcart fiasco of the (Mormons) crossing the plains out to Utah. It seems that that ill fated adventure took advantage of more than a few immigrants who were promised one thing and delivered something quite different.
Helen did tell us over and over, she is here to correct us when we get it wrong.
I’m wondering, if she does not reply to this topic, does that mean Bill got it all right? And if so, then how does Helen justify her believe in the LDS church when it is based upon lies?
If it is based upon lies, you know that and dont care, how can you say, I am following a tru prophet of God and what he taught was from God when your church and it’s leaders lie to us and you admit they do? Just curious here.
It’s really hard to figure out, right? Why would these tour guides lie like this? What can we deduct from this regarding their motive?
Well they obviously don’t want people to know the truth about Joseph Smith. They’d rather have people believe a version that I wouldn’t even call sanitized.
What I think it does to some Mormons is to get them asking the obvious question which is, “If this is a lie, what else is the LDS church lying about?” Once that ball of yarn starts unraveling it’s pretty hard to wind it up again.
There are decision points along the way as questioning Mormons begin to find out the truth about their religion. For some, the idea that the LDS church is not true, is just too difficult to contemplate. But for those who want to maintain some type of personal integrity and who can deal with the pain that comes with this discovery, there’s a bright light that leads them to Jesus Christ and eternal life.
I think Bill McKeever has done an amazing documentary.
He does a fine job recounting what led up to Joseph Smith’s imprisonment. The newspaper that was published in Nauvoo. (I believe that one major contributor to the paper, and one minor contributor, were men Joseph would have known well: his former first and second councilors.) Joseph Smith’s reaction to its claim that he was secretly a polygamist. And the women, some of whom were already married …
I really found Bill’s account of his visits to the jail interesting. Especially the guide, elder Salt, who spoke of their lone defense of the door and the walking sticks. The guide who would later speak quite readily, when prompted, of Joseph’s gun. Bill thought the guide presentations were geared toward creating a certain image.
Bill concluded with an interesting thought: the behavior of the various guides told him as much about Joseph Smith as it did about the LDS religion. What does it say about this ‘church’ if it doesn’t feel comfortable being candid about its history? Its ethics? Its history? And I liked how Bill spoke of God’s promises revealed in his word. They are the worthy object of our faith. Is a man the worthy object of our faith?
I’m with Falcon, Kate, don’t look at it as time wasted. You are now using your experience and knowledge to help others who are also caught up in the deception. Praise Jesus you made it out.
Kate, don’t despair that your years in the mormon chruch were wasted. God will use you (and looks like He already is) to shed light on the darkness of morminism. Who better to speak to the present day mormon than a former one? God surely does work ALL things for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes. You may not see the fruit, but be assured you are planting fertile seeds.
I was thinking about Joseph Smith popping those three members of the mob costing two of them their lives. I would say he had a right to defend himself and my guess is that the guy who brought the guns in, as well as the prisoners, figured there was a good chance of violence at the jail.
So the morality of protecting yourself from harm would, in my judgement, go in the self-defense column of morally acceptable.
So why don’t the Mormon tour guides and the Mormon spinmeisters just say that? Well it doesn’t play into the Mormon persecution and martyr narrative to have Smith blasting away with a pistol into a mob. Those two words, persecution and mob, play prominently into the Mormon mind-set. In their world view, Mormons are and always have been persecuted. But look at why Smith ended up in the jail in the first place. He was persecuting someone else. Those he was persecuting were revealing the truth about Smith and his practices.
The persecution claim is a good way of keeping the troops together as they emotionally gather around each other in anticipation of an outside threat. Cult leaders do this all the time as a technique to bring solidarity to the group, especially one that may be fracturing.
So the real story of Smith’s last days doesn’t fit in with what Mormon leaders want their members to believe and doesn’t have the desired effect on their emotions.
Correction: 🙂
John Taylor actually said, “I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died.”168 Who were these rumored dead men? Colonel Hay in his narrative wrote:
Joe Smith died bravely. He stood by the jamb of the door and fired four shots, bringing his man down every time. He shot an Irishman named Wills, who was in the affair from his congenital love of a brawl, in the arm; Gallagher, a Southerner from the Mississippi Bottom, in the face; Voorhees, a half-grown hobbledehoy from Bear Creek, in the shoulder; and another gentleman, whose name I will not mention, as he is prepared to prove an alibi, and besides stands six feet two in his moccasins.169
The courts indicted these alleged dead men for murder. Mr. Hay wrote:
Bills of indictment were found at the October term of court against Levi Williams, Mark Aldrich, Jacob C. Davis, William N. Grover, Thomas C. Sharp, John Wills, William Voorhees, William Gallagher and one Allen. They were based on the testimony of two idle youths, named Brackenbury and Daniels, who had accompanied the expedition from Warsaw to Carthage on the 27th of June, and had seen the whole affair.170
The two youths eventually exploited the incident and became useless as witnesses. However, their testimony as to seeing Wills, Voras, and Gallaher, all wounded, on the road between Carthage and Warsaw, were sufficient for indictment. The three indicted men were never arrested, nor did they appear at the trial. In contrast to Taylor’s unverified rumor perpetuation of their death, a local newspaper of that day perpetuated rumors to the contrary stating that the three men had left the state.171
Dallin Oaks and Marvin Hill’s detailed analysis of the accused killers trial stated that:
Wills, Voras, and Gallaher were probably named in the indictment because their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob. They undoubtedly recognized their vulnerability and fled the country. A contemporary witness reported these three as saying that they were the first men at the jail, that one of them shot through the door killing Hyrum, that Joseph wounded all three with his pistol, and that Gallaher shot Joseph as he ran to the window… The citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.172
The authors erroneously turn rumors into fact. Clearly there is more to the story than the mangled words of John Taylor reveal.
Source,
The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy: A Review, 75; and Hay, “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” 675.
MaM and Sandi B,
Thanks! That is a great way to look at it. I guess I wasn’t thinking about it that way.
falcon,
Awhile ago I was on another blog that I visit once in awhile and was discussing this with a Mormon apologist who also visits the blog and it was quite comical. He said that first of all it was a tiny pistol, like bringing a water pistol compared to a fire hose and second of all it misfired and third, there is no proof that anyone died or was even hit. I guess John Taylor’s account doesn’t actually count. It’s maddening to discuss with him. It just amazes me how the LDS can say that the things recorded by their own church leaders is inaccurate, how can these things be inaccurate and not trustworthy when everything printed by the LDS church past and present has to be approved by the first presidency? I love when the JoD is quoted. If quoted by LDS then of course it is the gospel truth! It proves the church is true and all LDS prophets are true prophets of god, but when someone shows a quote that contradicts, then that quote must have been written down wrong and the leader who said it couldn’t have possibly said that! I’d like to share a few quotes about the JoD and it’s accuracy:
“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every Number as it comes forth from the press as an additional reflector of ‘the light that shines from Zion’s hill.’ We rejoice, therefore, in being able to present to the Saints another completed Volume – the Eighth of the series; and, in doing so, we sincerely commend the varied and important instructions it contains to their earnest consideration” (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, vol.8).
“I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good scripture as is couched in this Bible…(Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
So the JoD had to be approved by church leadership. Mormons need to stop acting like stuff never happened or was never said. How does that help them be closer to Christ? How does that help with their Salvation? And my constant question concerning the LDS church, where is Christ in any of this? I find it so telling that the LDS leadership remains silent about all of this. Leaving it’s members and LDS apologists to fight for the truth they claim, when all it would take is for Thomas Monson to have a little courage to get up twice a year in GC and proclaim to the world the real truths that Mormonism teaches. Lies and deceit are not of God, so how can the LDS claim they have God’s truth when they are constantly lying to hide it?
Helen,
This is a copy and paste from FAIR which we all know is just honest and full of truth right? Here is a link to John Hay’s article, the one you are quoting from. I found it to be extremely interesting reading! I would ask everyone here to please read it. It tells the true nature of Joseph Smith and his Mormon followers. I think Helen that you should have researched this out before you chose to quote from this particular source (John Hay)
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/johnhayarticle.htm
Kate, It is funny how you said
When I say stuff like that to Helen she blows a gasket claiming all I ever do is say everyone lies, or all she does is lies. I hate to be the teller of truth here, but a lie does not need to be something as simple as, I say the shy is pink and everyone knows it’s blue, so that means I lied.
A lie can be leaving out information leading someone to believe something else, when if they were given all the facts, then the choice they make would end up taking a different path. LDS leaving out facts to lead people to believe something else is a lie.
And Helen and other can harp on the word lie, But Jesus said about some, You are of your father the Devil who was a liar and a murder from the beginning. The Bible also tells us not to lie and to tell the truth. Show me in scripture where if someone lies to you or trys to deceive another by leaving out facts, we are to simply sit by and do nothing about it.
Paul rebuked a demon possessed slave girl, She was telling the truth about what he was doing, but Paul does not need a demon to be saying anything for him.
Also I love this saying,
As Christians, we need to ask ourselves, if we allow people to lie, and mislead others through deception and simply blow it off as, well it’s expected they will do that, then do we really love them or have love if we simply tolerate that?
The thing about the saying that is most ironic, is that it was a Mormon that said it to me.
Oh man Kate,
You’ve experienced the Mormon fog machine when it comes to the attempts of the LDS folks to defend the indefensible.
Like I said, it’s never enough for them when it comes to the preponderance of evidence that Mormonism isn’t true. These are tactics that are born of a desire to have Mormonism be true no matter what. Frankly it all comes down to the burning in the bosom ploy. Once someone has an emotional reaction of some kind attributed to the Mormon Holy Ghost supposedly confirming the truth of Mormonism, no contrary evidence is valid.
It’s like the “read the BoM” challenge. The only acceptable answer for a Mormon is that the BoM is true. If someone reads it 50 times and says they have no testimony that it’s true, it’s because they didn’t pray enough or they weren’t sincere or humble blah, blah, blah. To a Mormon, the answer can never be, “It isn’t true.”
So it’s a game I refuse to play and a trap that I refuse to get my paw caught in.
Jim Spencer, in his book “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately”, tells the story of a Mormon confronted with the account in a Mormon publication that Joseph Smith said their were men on the moon. When faced with the obvious that the astronauts didn’t find any men on the moon the Mormon walks away troubled. The next day he comes back and says, “Well maybe they are in the moon.”
YIKES! But that account perfectly illustrates that to the true believing Mormon, Mormonism can never be false. Credulity can be stretched to the breaking point. Logic can be dismissed. Fantasy can be molded into reality. It’s whatever it takes to have the desired out come. Mormons have bought Mormonism emotionally and now they attempt to justify it by whatever means necessary.
I believe it was Walter Martin who said, “The Mormon can think rationally about all areas of his life, but not his religion.” We see that demonstrated daily here on Mormon Coffee.
Kate,
Thanks for posting the article. Outstanding report. It takes a while to get into the language of the era, but in some way it adds to the account.
So what do our Mormon friends say about the account? It doesn’t say what it says is my guess.
Helen, simply copying and pasting from FAIR (for example) is contrary to our comment policy which states:
I also respectfully request that you refrain from simply copying and pasting from any source. Please always provide a summary of the argument and the quotes’ relevance to the discussion. Thank you.
Sharon,
I like the policy. It means that a person has to reflect and develop a thoughtful, cogent presentation.
You know, I get that same warm, fuzzy feeling while watching a “tear jerker” movie or even Little House On The Prairie sometimes. Does that mean what I’m watching is the truth? No. It’s fiction. Feelings can’t always be trusted. I know that if Helen would have read the entire article by John Hay, she would never have quoted from him on here. It seems that the “2 idle boys” that were witnesses, turned out to be not so good for the witnessing. I don’t think that the murders should ever have happened. That is not what I’m saying at all. I think Joseph Smith had every right to defend himself and the others. What was done was not right. The thing that bothers me is that the events leading up to June 27, 1844 are NEVER mentioned by the LDS church or it’s members. From what I have read, after the event, Mormons retaliated and murdered men. It’s been awhile since I researched that so I don’t want to try and put details here. Once again I will say, lying by omission is still lying. I know Helen has a problem with us using the word lies or calling someone a liar because it’s just not “Christian” or nice, but if Mormons would just be truthful and upfront with their religion those words wouldn’t need to be said.
I have spoken with many LDS on the issue of JS shooting two people. I am in 100 percent agrment that it was self defence, and I am all for that. As I stated many times, I did submission style fighting, Judo, and Jujistu.
But the problem I have is when LDS try comparing JS to Jesus and saying JS went to his death as a lamb to the slaughter.
Jesus did not try escaping, He went willingly, Jesus could have as He said, called angles to resuce him, He could have allowed peter to take a second swing with the sword.
So lets compare Jesus to JS.
Jesus Healed the person Peter tried to kill and told him to put away the sword.
J.S never said, take the gun back, I dont need it. Instaed he used it.
Jesus could have came down off the cross, He did not.
JS tried escaping.
Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
JS did not ask for people to be forgiven.
Jesus Did not speak evil against anyone.
JS, Siad lots of stuff, but non of it was Love them and forgive them.
Please explain how JS can be compared to Jesus, I simply dont see it. Thanks.
There’s a real smell of phoniness about what the tour guides do. Bill relates how one of the guides gave this heart-rendering account of the incident and when asked a question regarding the guns et al he just shifts gears flawlessly and basically negates his tour guide script.
What’s the point if the story has to be embellished to a degree that it’s not faithful to what actually happened?
It’s two fold. First of all to keep the fantasy going for Mormons and secondly to try and fool someone who doesn’t know the Mormon story. In either case it’s lying and bears no resemblance to the truth.
Jesus said when the Spirit of truth came, he would lead His disciples into all truth. The spirit that guides Mormonism isn’t interested in the truth.
Rick,
Excellent point! I don’t see it either.
I’m wondering about the LDS apologists at FAIR and their quoting of the article by John Hay. So if the information in the article is true and factual, so factual that Mormon apologists quote from it to defend their faith, am I to believe all the stuff in it about Joseph and Hirum and all of the womanizing and the horrible things that was done on the Mormon side? It must be true also right? Things like:
“For four years the entire county had been kept in a state of unwholesome excitement by these people. After all that may be said of the faults of both sides, it is impossible to deny that the Mormons were bad neighbors.”
“The city charter, granted by the legislature in a sordid subserviency, gave to the municipal court a wide jurisdiction. The accused Mormon always appealed to this court for protection against the persecuting gentile, and he always got off scot-free. Smith rather enjoyed defying the outside world”
“Intoxicated with so abnormal a power, surrounded by knaves that flattered him and dupes that worshipped him, Smith began to develop vices that were truly royal. He appropriated the exclusive right to deal in real estate, to sell liquor, to marry, and to give in marriage. He was too ignorant to look far beyond his own horizon.”
“Of late he had grown more violent and open in his lawlessness. He had sent a band of his followers into Missouri, to kidnap the witnesses in a case where a Mormon thief was to be tried. He had brutally assaulted and beaten a county officer in the streets of Nauvoo. He stood indicted in the courts for perjury, in having sworn to a purely imaginary charge of murder, against a gentleman whom he wanted to drive out of Nauvoo. That absurd ecclesiastical court of his had repeatedly discharged men accused of grave offences, and warned the officers against any attempt to rearrest them.”
It also seems to point to the fact that Joseph Smith and company came back and turned themselves in at Carthage Jail, not as a lamb to the slaughter, but because he and other Mormons seemed to be above the law within the court system:
“The Smiths were sure of a speedy trial and acquittal. And the whole tiresome play was to begin again. There was only one way of getting out of the groove. The Deus ex machina, who alone could settle matters, was the mob.”
So crazy that FAIR would quote from this article. I’m still scratching my head!
Kate,
Isn’t this called “cherry picking”? Mormons tend to be very selective in what they want to take out of a source and have an uncanny way of taking things out of context to suit their own particular needs. The need, of course, is to prove to (themselves) that the church is true. They can’t prove it to us because we are very aware of their tactics and besides, we know the LDS church is false.
I really like the contribution of you exMormons to this forum. The perspective is outstanding and gives a real “before and after” view of your spiritual journey. Active Mormons don’t like exMos because they have street cred in that they’ve been there, seen the inside workings of the organization, and have come to a real faith in Jesus Christ.
We can be assured that Mormons are leaving the fold in droves as information about this false cult becomes more readily available on the internet.
Rick B, excellent post regarding comaprison to JS to Jesus. I maintain they should really call the church by it proper name, The Chruch of Joseph Smith. Why would you call a church the chruch of Jesus Christ, when Jesus is not your Head and not the Center of your doctrine.
This was my experience of what peoples “testimony” consisted of when I was in the mormon chruch or the chruch of Joseph Smith, it went something a long the lines of this “I know the chruch is true, I know Joesph Smith was a true propehet of god, I know the book of mormon is true and everything in it is true (which is especially interesting since so much of what is in the BofM is contrary to the doctrine of the church.). Rarely if ever, did I hear I know Jesus is the true and living God or even the Savior of the world. I, myself was guilty of this. I am sure I beleived it when I set it, but I did not know the charachter or nature of either Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit at that time.
The true history of Joseph Smith was not taught. He is simply presented as a person who sought the truth in a time of revivalism and has this vision. Contrast that with the people in the Bible. They are shown flaws and all and show that we are all sinners and need salvation. It will never be found through Joesph Smith, only thorugh Jesus Christ who is our great High Priest after the order of Melchezidek.
The fact of the matter is that Joseph Smith wasn’t the guy the average Mormon has been taught (that he was). When the Mormon finds out the truth about Smith he/she can either emotionally stuff it, try to come up with some explanation-often quite fanciful and creative, or do a little more digging for the truth. Depending on that Mormon’s particular situation, the latter choice may lead to more pain and personal upheaval.
What do you do when you’ve grown up Mormon, your life has revolved around the Mormon church, your whole family is Mormon, your boss is Mormon and your closest friends are all Mormon and you discover information that runs contrary to what everyone else believes or wants to believe. Where I live, the social consequences of leaving Mormonism or being a truth teller are not as severe as someone who lives in an area populated predominately by Mormons.
The tour guides that Bill references in his presentation, are repeating the LDS script to a bunch of Mormons who have been taught the same script and the presentation merely reinforces what they all ready believe. Bill disrupted the tour guides’ rhythm and caused him to tell the truth of the details of the Smith was a martyr story. The guide knew the truth and with held it and some how was able to justify the lie in his own mind.
I wonder if I could do that. That is, find some justification or rationalization for repeating the same lie day after day and do it sincerely. There are people who do it and we call them sociopaths or pathological liars. In this case we call them Mormons!
Actually the paper (the June 7, 1844 The Nauvoo Expositor – it’s first and last edition) had ALREADY exposed him as a liar, schemer, and contriver. However, I don’t think that he was considered a “fraud” by the producers as they felt that Joseph more akin to a “fallen prophet” than a fraud. And I don’t remember the Nauvoo Bank failure being mentioned in their grievances with Smith. And the Bank failure isn’t mentioned in his 1887 interview either.
Read more: Why did Joseph Smith burn down a newspaper company? Was it ’cause the paper was going to expose him as a fraud? Was it ’cause of his bank dibocal?…? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1362281#ixzz1QfalPJB2
Interesting article Kate, did you also notice the following: The seceders, those who were trying to expose him as a liar, schemer, and contriver also did not consider him a fraud concerning the Book of Mormon and a Prophet of God — more akin to a fallen prophet than a fraud. From the same article let me quote the following:
“As for our acquaintance with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we know no man nor set of men can be more thoroughly acquainted with its rise, its organization, and its history, than we have every reason to believe we are. We all verily believe, and many of us know of a surety, that the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, as originally taught by Joseph Smith, which is contained in the Old and New Testaments, Book of Covenants, and Book of Mormon, is verily true; and that the pure principles set forth in those books are the immutable and eternal principles of Heaven, and speaks [sic] a language which when spoken in truth and virtue sinks deep into the heart of every honest man.”
What does this prove? nothing at all except they were going after JS for other issues not the truthfulness of
Mormonsim.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
I don’t think that anyone said the Expositor was trying to expose him for fraud, not sure where you are getting that. Maybe I missed something. They were exposing him for polygamy. They were faithful Mormons, no one is questioning that. They broke away because of Joseph’s practice of polygamy, that they felt was of the devil. Just because they were followers of Joseph Smith in the beginning doesn’t make Mormonism or anything about it true. To make it true, we would need hard evidence such as ancient texts, archeological evidence, linguistics evidence, etc….Mormonism provides none of that. It uses our own emotions. What happens if an investigator reads the BoM and prays about it and feels nothing? Are they told that they just didn’t have enough faith or to read it again and pray harder? I’m wondering why the switch? Why are you trying to divert the conversation to something other than what we are discussing?
Kate said
Kate, I’m sure you have seen this and experinced this before. It really proves that Mormons dont care about the truth and only want to believe what they want. I have meet Mormons, and for evidence anyone can ask this question on the fairlds board. Many LDS have told me they prayed about the BoM and is it true and from God. They said they NEVER got a BURNING in the Bosom. Yet they still believed.
Many LDS that I spoke with were/are posters on the fairLDS board. So if they get no burning and still believe, it amounts to they want to believe what they want to believe. Also I have had many mormons tell me to my face, When I prayed and heard from God saying the BoM is false, then it was me who was decived and not sincere.
Why is is I am not sincere and listing to lies when I pray about the BoM and am told it is wrong. This also shows LDS want to believe what they want to believe because they REFUSE to hear anything other than what they want. They believe when they get no burning and believe when they do get one, They tell me that if I get any answer other than what they want me to hear I am wrong. That is not sincere honest approach.
falcon,
I live in such a society. You have to have a thick skin. I would rather be a loner and die in Christ than live the Mormon lie. I’m still the same around my Mormon friends and family. It gets a little awkward sometimes, like recently I had to attend a baptism. I couldn’t not go, this little girl called and asked me to come. I love her and did it for her, but listening to the things the speakers were saying to her was really hard. Christ was barely mentioned. Such a special day, she was told, the day she becomes a member of the Church. I’m so glad that I’m out. If you want to talk about “feelings” I was physically sick for days. What does that prove?
Sandi B,
The description of the testimonies that you gave are exactly what I heard for 40 years. Occasionally there would be a woman or two who would say those things and then proceed to tell all her problems for 10 minutes. I was never comfortable getting up in front of everyone so I can honestly say that I never did it. That doesn’t mean that I didn’t believe it at the time, I just never announced it publicly. I always wondered how a little 3 year old Sunbeam could get up and say ” I know this church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I love my mom and dad…”
How does a 3 year old KNOW these things? I’m sure they can know that they love their mom and dad, but the rest??? Always the same two lines by these little ones. It starts early.
Rick,
Honestly, I’m just floored. I always thought that Mormons are honest to the core and that they were just misguided. To find out that they know about the lying, especially by the LDS missionaries is appalling to me. I guess you learn something new everyday. How can I even have respect for a Mormon now? I know that not all Mormons know about the lying but to actually discuss with one who does (and condones it) is just so….I don’t even have a word for it. After watching this video of Bill, it would seem that not only do Mormons intentionally lie, they act as if it’s for the “greater good!” God does not condone lying in any sense of the word.
I made up this video for YouTube, on the murder of Joseph Smith, (which I took from clips from the movie September Dawn) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-3XgX7zuRA _johnny
Kate,
Here it is; lying to make it true and it’s justifiable in the Mormon system. That would sum up Mormon logic. Say anything as long as it supports the notion that Mormonism is true. That’s how Mormons can ignore the undeniable evidence regarding the fact that the BoM is false. Take the BoA. If you want to see a Mormon cork-screw themselves into the ground just watch the excuses, hedging, weaving, dodging and just plain myth making regarding that disaster.
A young woman goes to her bishop because she learns that the BoM says that Jesus is to be born in Jerusalem when the Bible predicts and Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem. The bishop’s spin? Well Bethlehem is in the area (?) of Jerusalem so the BoM is not wrong. If the BoM says that Jesus was to be born in Toledo, Ohio, Mormons would figure out a way that it’s true.
And just for fun, where according to Mormonism was the Garden of Eden? If my memory serves me right, I think Mormons claim it was in Independence, Mo. And here’s another good one. When Jesus returns, where is his foot to touch down according to the Bible and according to Mormonism. Not the same place? You got it! Mormons try to do a save on this one by saying Jesus will go to the place mentioned in the Bible first and then travel over to Missouri. See all better now!
So to a Mormon, Mormonism is true, period! Anything can be claimed to support that premise. It can be a claim that is factually wrong, nonsensical, childish and without any merit. It doesn’t matter.
This same phenomenon can be observed in some families where the father has been sexually abusing his daughters and when one of them blows the whistle on the pervert, she becomes the problem within the family system. Everyone else in the group protects the perv.
Hi Kate, I know that sinking awful feeling you get when you have to go to some mormon event and sit there and stay quiet. About a year ago a women who has been like a second mom to me died and I flew our for her funeral. When her son in law, who is a bishop now got up and started to preach the “mormon gospel”, not only did it take all that was within me not to get up and shout “it all a big fat lie and you are being deceived”, but I literally had to bow my head and pray my way through the service. It was just awful. The funny thing was, the people there were all people who I had grown up in my time in the mormon church with, I was up front up about being born again and not one of them told me I belonged to a church that was an abomination or anything of that sort, they were all smiles and seemed very happy for me. Now mind you, they might not have felt that was the time and place for a confrontation, just as I didn’t think it was, but later as I spent time with the family, as I was considered a member of the family, not one person asked me why I would have left the mormon church or what this being born again stuff was all about. Its like they just don’t want to know.
Falcon said
Falcon, this statement is so true and more true to my family. My wife was molested by her father when she was a little girl, the molestion happened 4 times. Well guess what, the dad went to jail, the mother and father divorced, and my wife was blamed for everything by the mother. To this day over 30 years later it still causes problems, It was so bad I had to tell the mother to stay out of our lives, we/I never want to see or talk to her again, and unless she speaks to me and we resolve these issues she can die a lonlely old lady who will never see her grand kids again. it has been almost 3 years and we have no spoken to her, simply because she does not want to deal truthfuly with me on any issue.
Rick,
Don’t you wonder what the psychological device that is where by the one that identifies the problem IS the problem.
There is something in certain family systems, churches, cults, any place where folks gather in a unit that’s called “the no talk rule”. In his book “Beyond Mormonism” Jim Spencer, while not labeling this, describes it to a “T”. Appearances are everything in Mormonism. The pressures to conform with the group and fall into line and be “perfect” as the “church is perfect” is great.
So in the video Bill describes the heart felt sincere emotional delivery by the tour guide. It’s all about appearances. Before I knew a whole lot about Mormonism, my wife and I met a woman at an educational function out in Utah. I don’t know how we even got on the subject but she began to relate her former life in Mormonism. She was pretty young and I had the feeling she had just bolted the cult. Man she was one angry, bitter person as she related the pressures of being in Mormonism and of a couple of female friends that had committed suicide. It was quite a testimony. She laid the blame squarely at the feet of the LDS church and the culture of Mormonism.
Rick B. Fact, the Carthage Greys were a militia. If two militia-men had died, there would be a more complete history of it. JS had the opportunity to leave Nauvoo, yet he went to Carthage where he knew he would take his last breath, “lamb to the slaughter” even Christ shirked from what He knew He promised to do, but did the Fathers will. “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” So what did John Taylor really say:
“I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died . . .” he never witnessed the killing. . Is says that only three shots were discharged. So for someone to say they J.S. killed two men is plain out misleading unless one can provide the evidence, where where they buried for starters? which would most likely give dates.
Helen 🙂
Sandi B,
I prayed my way through as well. My mom was just so proud of my niece. Tears all around. My mom knows that I’ve left and she doesn’t want to talk about my new found Christianity. I love her to death, but when I’ve tried to talk to her about things she just clams up and doesn’t want to hear it. So your comment about them not wanting to know about it is spot on. Of course I get to hear all the latest and greatest in momoville and how wonderful the religion is. It’s not a two way street. One thing that I had to clarify for her is that, no I don’t belong to “that weird little church on the hill” ( as the Mormons here call the Christian church) I belong to Christ. Mormons think “churches” but what they don’t realize is that Christ isn’t an organization. Yes Christians meet in a building but Christianity is so much more than just a “church.” I know that I am saved in Christ even if I never step foot inside a church building. Mormons seem to think that unless they do the whole program of the multimillion dollar corporation then they don’ t have a chance in heck to inherit the highest degree of glory. Best to just put your shoulder to the wheel and push along, push along.
Helen,
Please do not put Joseph Smith up next to Christ. Jesus didn’t try to defend himself with a pistol. He certainly didn’t die with the distress code of The Free Masons on his lips. According to John Hay’s article The Smith boys thought that they would have a speedy trial and be quickly acquitted just like the many times before when they had broken the law. I would guess they weren’t too concerned, they had been enjoying a bottle of wine. So how can you prove that Joseph really said “as a lamb to the slaughter”? If John Taylor’s account of the events isn’t accurate to you, what else could be inaccurate?
Jesus never ran, dont even try comparing a corward that tried to jump out a window to God who hung on the cross despite His brutal beating, having His beard ripped from his face, a bag put over his face and punched over and over.
Joseph never went to the slaughter as a lamb. He was a coward who died as a coward. He married women who were already married and told his wife she needed to live with it or God would kill her. Boy thats a guy your really want to follow, you can marry him.
Kate, “I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died . . .” he never witnessed the killing. . Kate.
Rick B. the same web site Kate wanted me to read and she said was quite accurate also called Joseph Smith a brave man when he died. As for the sick cowardly mob, which you hesitate to mention we have the following also from Kate’s web site:
With his last dying energies he gathered himself up, and leaned in a sitting posture against the rude stone well-curb. His stricken condition, his vague wandering glances, excited no pity in the mob thirsting for his life. They had not seen the handsome fight he had made in the jail; there was no appeal to the border chivalry (there is chivalry on the borders, as in all semi-barbarous regions). A squad of Missourians who were standing by the fence levelled their pieces at him, and, before they could see him again for the smoke they made, Joe Smith was dead.
Helin/Louis 🙂
Helen, I just love how you avoid so many serious questions, yet you try and defend a coward who took married women, said you must marry me or you cannot enter heaven, then tells his wife, sorry I dont like this any more than you do, but God said these women must be married to me and you must simply do as I say or God will kill you. Yea, try telling God that when you stand before Him after you die and try telling God that despite all the evidece showing JS was a fraud and Liar, you choose to follow him anyway.
Rick stated, “but God said these women must be married to me and you must simply do as I say or God will kill you.”
I feel a correction coming on 🙂
So Rick B. explain to me and your peers the following:
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified;…
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife
When you figure it out get back to us, if you can’t then I will explain it to you. 🙂
Helen,
I know you want to play the coy Mormon poster, but if you’re going to continue (posting) here give references and give the rest of the readers a hint of what you’re talking about.
I also know playing mysterious is suppose to what, sound intellectual, smart or intriguing? Talking in circles and giving vague reference to something isn’t all that hot if you can’t articulate a cogent thought. Look at me, I can ride my bike no hands. WOW! Impressive.
Quite frankly, I just think you’re clanking the ball off the back of the rim.
And BTW, Joseph Smith got one of his Mormon babes into the sack by telling her an angel with a sword appeared to him and threatened him with death if he didn’t start practicing polygamy. Typical cult leader.
Helen,
I love how you avoid 99 percent of my questions, but then think I should answer every question you ask me. How about you reply to some of my questions before expecting a reply from me.
“Look at me, I can ride my bike no hands. WOW! Impressive.” hahahaha falcon, you crack me up. I just let the whole polygamy debate go. It’s so dang obvious what was truly meant from each prophet/scripture/book, but somehow mormons find a way to think all the conflicting revelations and such flow together. From what I’ve seen and experienced, seems like being a mormon would be exhausting. All that effort to rationalize everything and appear normal and perfect.
Kate I really do admire you and other exmormons who made it out and find the true living Christ. You have a point of view that the rest of us don’t. And although I’ve been to plenty of LDS church functions, meetings, etc… there’s still so much I’ll never understand. You can (and are) doing so much for the kingdom of God.
Helen,
When did I ever say that the article by John Hay was accurate? I don’t always believe everything I read. He did seem to give a fair account on both sides. I was simply pointing out that if you had read the entire article you would never have quoted from it. It has too much information that doesn’t show Joseph Smith and his followers in a “faith promoting” light. You are the one who wants all the information from a quote put out there. You didn’t quote the whole thing, but instead posted what FAIR “cherry picked” from the article. Yes, I’m still scratching my head about FAIR quoting from it. I think that it does more damage to the LDS church than it does in helping them prove that no one died by Joseph Smith’s hand during the shoot out.
Notice how the women needed to be virgins? Now I’m sure that the second thing you quoted is meant to contradict that and somehow make him justified in marrying women who were already married to other men. Guess where their husbands were? Joseph sent them out on missions, now why do you think that is? I think it was to get them out of the way so he could hook up with their wives. Tell me something, if this were going on today and Thomas Monson sent your husband out on a mission and came to you wanting you to be one of his plural wives, would you do it? How would you feel about it?
Kate,
Your last question to our buddy Helen is easy. She’d have to climb the gang plank to the USS Monson Love Boat. It’s good to personalize these things because it brings all of it into perspective.
The theme that runs through Bills presentation is quite simply, Mormons lie. It’s not a matter of interpretation. Lying is a foundational characteristic of Mormonism starting with Joseph Smith and his golden plates fable.
The biggest turn-off I’d say with those who leave Mormonism, is when they find out all of the facts about Mormonism that frame the church in a whole different light (from what they’ve been told). It’s really shock city to find out your prophet wasn’t much more than a razzle dazzle medicine show barker. But there are people who fall in love with the image of the saintly boy prophet who had all forms of spiritual beings appearing to him and giving him messages. So there’s fantasy and reality. Unfortunately, too many Mormon would rather live the fantasy than face the reality.
The information about Smith’s character and history as a religious con man is true. It’s not lies or a matter of interpretation. There’s a syndicated radio show I hear advertised called “Over Night”. The topic is always about zombies or extraterrestrials, UFOs or some form of psychic phenomenon. There’s a market niche of people who love this stuff and will use any psychological device necessary to feed their fantasy and keep the whole ruse going-in their own minds. They’re, for the most part harmless folks who just get a real emotional lift and mental buzz from their obsession. My guess is that the closing rate for Mormon missionaries and the retention rate for converts in the Mormon church is fairly low. The market niche for the Smith story is not large. Probably less than for those who listen to the “Over Night” radio program. The LDS church is hemorrhaging members as can be seen from the rate of resignations not to mention the walk-away inactives.
The only way to stem this tide is for the LDS church to continue to lie, cover-up the truth and come up with weak implausible explanations. This is something Mormonism has been doing since its inception.
For Falcon, D&C verses 61 and 65 is the source and it has to do with section 132 which is being discussed. Rick B. states that Emma must do exactly what JS say or she will be killed, note that is not what 61 and 65 says. It states the JS must seek first the permission of Emma Smith.
Rick B. it doesn’t matter if you answer them or not, all I have to do is show that when you quote out of context there usually is a correction since you misrepresent the meaning. I correct so that other folks can see just what Evangelicals do to manipulate.
Kate, virgin is correct and JS married first a virgin, next he married those who were virgins except for the wives of other men who he only had sealed for time and eternity to him and never slept with them. In all things JS first inquired of Emma before any marriages or sealing.
The revelation now contained in D&C 132 was given specifically for Emma’s benefit, and it lays out the requirements for a husband to take an additional wife.
DC 132:61 and DC 132:65:
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified;…
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
The “law of Sarah” can thus be summarized as follows:
If the Lord commands the husband to take another wife, he must seek consent from the first wife.
If the first wife is given the chance and properly taught the law, and then she refuses to accept it, then the husband is no longer required to seek her consent.
Emma had already been pronounced as an “elect lady”(meaning her sealing was automatic) by revelation, calling and election made sure. Of course Kate you being a member for 40 years already had been taught what elect meant, right?
Helen/Louis 🙂
FYI Falcon 🙂 had both our ward missionaries over for dinner last night. I always ask then the same question, how many investigators are being taught by you? Response 15 new investigators and all seem excited about what they are being taught.
You stated: “My guess is that the closing rate for Mormon missionaries and the retention rate for converts in the Mormon church is fairly low.”
Yep, fairly low!