On June 27, 1844 Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet was shot and killed while imprisoned at Carthage Jail in Illinois. Bill McKeever explains the greater historical context of this event in “The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith.”
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Oh Helen you are too much! Where to begin…. Yes I know all about “calling and election made sure” first off, who is Joseph Smith to tell anyone they are guaranteed Heaven??? Is he God?? Second, Emma only knew about 5-7 of those extra wives! So where and when did he ask her permission??? Not to mention the fact that he was a polygamist for 12 or so years BEFORE he ever let her know about it! How do you know he never slept with them?? Were you there? There are journals of these women who tell Joseph Smith is the father of one of their children. I have two great, great, great, great, Aunts who were sealed to Smith as plural wives. Oh yes he slept with them! It’s in journals.
Also, how can Emma Smith have her calling and election made sure? Let’s look at how she felt about plural marriage:
“Though she had officiated for women when Joseph first introduced the endowment, after his death she refused to participate in helping the saints receive their endowments in the Nauvoo temple (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p. 1325). She deepened in her animosity for the doctrine of plural marriage and throughout her life denied that Joseph had ever taught it, lying to her children and all others regarding the issue (Emma Smith: An Elect Lady, Susan Easton Black, p. 74-75). She outright lied to her children about the truth of plural marriage. Her resentment and creeping apostasy had turned her into an embittered liar and adversary to the truth.
Emma wouldn’t even participate in the endowment ceremony. She lied to her kids about polygamy and Joseph’s practice of it. To this day the RLDS don’t believe he ever practiced it. The JoD has this to say:
“That same woman [Emma] has brought up her children to believe that no such thing as plurality of wives existed in the days of Joseph, and has instilled the bitterest principles of apostasy into their minds, to fight against the Church that has come to these mountains according to the predictions of Joseph….The course pursued by this woman shows what apostates can do, and how wicked they can become in their hearts. When they apostatize from the truth they can come out and swear before God and the heavens that such and such things never existed, when they know, as well as they know they exist themselves, that they are swearing falsely.”(Journal of Discourses 13:194).
Emma said, “I have always avoided talking to my children about having anything to do in the church, for I have suffered so much I have dreaded to have them take any part in it.” (As quoted in Susan Easton Black, Who’s Who in the Doctrine and Covenants, p. 275). The surviving adopted daughter of the Murdock twins converted to Catholicism.
This is what Brigham Young had to say about Emma Smith:
.”To my certain knowledge, Emma Smith is one of the damnedest liars I know of on this earth; yet there is no good thing I would refuse to do for her, if she would only be a righteous woman; but she will continue in her wickedness. Not six months before the death of Joseph, he called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her the truth, and called upon her to deny it if she could. He told her that the judgments of God would come upon her forthwith if she did not repent. He told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she. He told here where she got the poison, and how she put it in a cup of coffee; said he ‘You got that poison from so and so, and I drank it, but you could not kill me.’ When it entered his stomach he went to the door and threw it off. he spoke to her in that council in a very severe manner, and she never said one word in reply. I have witnesses of this scene all around, who can testify that I am now telling the truth. Twice she undertook to kill him. [Utah Historical Quarterly, vol. 48, Winter 1980, 82]
Didn’t he also say something like, if Joseph wants her in eternity he will have to go down to hell and get her himself? This is so messed up! Emma was never for polygamy and fought Joseph at every turn. What about when she went into the barn and saw him having “relations” with Fanny Alger? What about the Partridge sisters?:
“the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their family. . . . I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March 1843, . . . My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterward she consented to give her husband two wives, providing he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma’s presence. . . . From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy . . . things went from bad to worse until we were obligated to leave the house and find another home. (Historical Record, p. 240)
You need to research more Helen.
Helen,
You quoted the following, “and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.”
God never commanded Abraham to take Hagar for his wife. See Genesis 16:1-2, NKJV
1 Now Sarai [Sarah], Abram’s [Abraham’s] wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the LORD has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” AND ABRAM HEEDED THE VOICE OF SARAI. [not the voice of God]
Please note in the verses which follow the above quote how this going against God’s plan by Sarai (Sarah) and Abram (Abraham) created misery for both of them, and for Hagar and Ishmael.
Notice God’s true plan in Genesis 17:15-19, NKJV, 15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!” 19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.
God, in His mercy, also blessed Ishmael.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly.
falcon,
The USS Monson Love Boat???? LOL! I think it’s too early in the morning for this kind of laughter! I think it’s good to personalize this stuff too. Mormons seem to forget that these were real people and real lives that were destroyed. That does really bother me. I feel so sorry for these women who were caught up in all of this. I mentioned that I have two Aunts who were sealed to Joseph Smith. One was a widow with children and although she wasn’t actually married anymore she certainly wasn’t a virgin. The other Aunt said in her journal that she was 30 years old and never been married. Joseph approached her and she was appalled. He sent Hyrum to talk to her and she wouldn’t budge. Then he sent her brother and he talked her into it. In her brother’s journal, he recorded that Joseph and his sister spent their wedding night in an upstairs bedroom of his house as man and wife. He also said they were married in secret without the knowledge of Emma Smith. What makes me feel so bad about this Aunt is that after Joseph died, she remarried and had 5 daughters. None of those girls had children. They either died young or just never were able to have kids. One of them was handicapped. This Aunt felt that it was her fault that she would never have any posterity because she didn’t remain faithful to Joseph Smith after his death. I can’ t even imagine what went through the damaged minds of these women forced into polygamy. What kind of life would they have had if they had never been introduced to Joseph Smith? What kind of life would the women of the FLDS church have if they had never been introduced to Warren Jeffs. I get so disgusted when Warren Jeffs is on the news and I hear my Mormon family express their outrage at his lifestyle. One day I even said ” If you want to know what Joseph Smith was like, just look at Warren Jeffs.” It’s the truth. They are the same.
Kate says:
June 30, 2011 at 6:54 am
Oh Helen you are too much! Where to begin…. Yes I know all about “calling and election made sure” first off, who is Joseph Smith to tell anyone they are guaranteed Heaven??? Is he God?? Second, Emma only knew about 5-7 of those extra wives! So where and when did he ask her permission??? Not to mention the fact that he was a polygamist for 12 or so years BEFORE he ever let her know about it! How do you know he never slept with them?? Were you there? There are journals of these women who tell Joseph Smith is the father of one of their children. I have two great, great, great, great, Aunts who were sealed to Smith as plural wives. Oh yes he slept with them! It’s in journals.
All nice talking points, but very irrelevant since not one of your criticisms above is backed by a source or reference. Nine try. 🙂
gpark says: “And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai.”
Thank you, my point being that the law of God requires that permission must be first given by the first virgin who one is married too.
Thank you again for validating my point. 🙂
Kate says, ” I mentioned that I have two Aunts who were sealed to Joseph Smith. One was a widow with children and although she wasn’t actually married anymore she certainly wasn’t a virgin. The other Aunt said in her journal that she was 30 years old and never been married.”
What are their names Kate?
Helen, You tell me I only give part of the quote, You want more, how about this, that you did not mention or expound upon.
I like how God says Emma will be destroyed if she does not follow the commandment. Please show me chapter and verse from the Bible where God tells anyone He (God) is commanding men to take many wives. I can show you a verse where God says we are not to take many wives, And two wives is one too many.
I love this
Please Helen, Fill me in how God tells Emma she will be destroyed for not allowing JS to have many wives, yet the same God says Plural wives is an abomination before him. Funny how it goes from an abomination to a law of God we must abide by.
But I know you well enough to know you will surly have an answer for this problem and it will really not be a problem in the end will it?
Helen,
The Fabulous Fifteen; “They seem excited” Please send them to me Helen or one of our exMormon posters and we will “un” excite them with the truth about Joseph Smith and the LDS church. Find out how many folks are sending in their resignations every month and then we’ll have a comparison. Or for that matter, how many Wards have been “combined” for lack of members.
Helen, you poor sweet naive lamb. Smith never slept with any of those women? He was just sealed to them; hee, hee, hee. Oh brother, the LDS church just loves simple little souls like you. (smile button)
So let’s say that Smith never got it on with the married sisters. What was the guy doing poaching other men’s wives? It looks like he was only interested in building-up his harem to get himself more babes for the Celestial Kingdom. Ever hear of emotional adultery Helen? I would call this spiritual adultery. He stole those women whose husbands were counting on getting THEM to the big show.
The D&C? Go back and take a look at the Book of Commandments that was originally written and how Smith lost followers when he started his power trip with the D&C. Why do you think there are so many different brands of Mormonism?
And as long as you brought up Emma, which branch of Mormonism did she belong to after JS death? And for that matter, what branch of Mormonism did Smith’s son serve as its head? His son had a hard time coming to grips with the old man’s polygamy and said if daddy practiced it, he was wrong. A little hint Helen, the group doesn’t believe in many gods and men becoming gods nor did they believe in or practice polygamy. They give their members the option of viewing the BoM as a “spiritual” book and not an actual historic account. They’re actually very open about the history of Mormonism. Of course they don’t have to claim a lot of the goofy stuff.
You’re something else Helen. You do make me smile. “Joseph Smith never had sex with those women, not once!” What flavor of Kool Aid would you like to drink today Helen?
Helen,
I read in the Bible about King David sleeping with another mans wife. Yes David had that man killed to cover up getting the women pregnat. JS did not have men killed, I’m not saying or implying that, But the fact remains, King David knew that he was in the wrong and sinned by sleeping with another mans wife. God did not condone what King David did.
Seriously what makes you think God all of a sudden allowed JS to take to him married women?
Also you say JS never sletp with the women, sure he did’nt. I recall readin something saying JS wife Emma caught JS servicing some of his wives in the barn, If thats not slepping with them, then please explain what is. I have been married for going on 18 years, so I know a thing or two about sex.
Rick,
I have come to the conclusion that “Helen” isn’t “Helen”. I’ve had my suspicions that “Helen” is one of our former Mormon posters under a new name. It’s either that or the MRM folks are playing with us just to spice things up.
So here’s the deal. Let’s you and I start a campaign to find and meet “Helen”. How about if “Helen” travels to the Twin Cities and you and I take her out to a great restaurant, on us? Maybe we could get some of the other posters to join us. If we can’t do that, do I hear ROAD TRIP!?
What’s that thing that people do now? Is it “geocashing”. We’ll search for “Helen”.
BTW what do I do when I run out of that great seasoning you sent me? I’m at the point where I put it on everything.
Joseph Smith married at least twenty-seven plural wives between 1833 and July 12, 1843 (see In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 4-6).
Todd Compton is a faithful LDS and researched his book well. Joseph was sealed to all of these women before he ever gave the revelation on plural marriage. Hyrum wanted him to commit the revelation to paper and this is what is recorded:
On the morning of the 12th of July, 1843; Joseph and Hyrum Smith came into the office . . . Hyrum said to Joseph, “If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.” Joseph smiled and remarked, “You do not know Emma as well as I do.”. . . Hyrum then took the revelation to read to Emma. . . . When he came back, Joseph asked how he had succeeded. Hyrum replied that he had never received a more severe talking to in his life. . . .
Joseph quietly remarked, “I told you you did not know Emma as well as I did.”. . . Two or three days after the revelation was written Joseph related to me [William Clayton] and several others that Emma had so teased, and urgently entreated him for the privilege of destroying it, that he became so weary of her teasing, and to get rid of her annoyance, he told her she might destroy it and she had done so . . . realizing that he . . . could rewrite it at any time if necessary (History of the Church, Introduction to vol. 5).
After finding letters by Eliza R. Snow in Joseph’s pocket and figuring out Joseph was actually married to her, Emma also found out about Flora Woodworth:
“Still smarting from her discovery of Eliza’s letters, Emma went for a short carriage ride with Joseph. He attended to some business at the temple while she called on the Lucian Woodworth family. Emma was unaware that the Woodworth’s sixteen-year-old daughter, Flora, had been Joseph’s plural wife since spring. What probably began as a casual social visit exploded when Emma discovered that Joseph had given Flora a gold watch. The implications of such a gift were obvious since he had also given one to Eliza. Joseph returned as Emma “was demanding the gold watch” from Flora and reprimanded her. Once in the carriage, however, Emma undoubtedly vented her own anger at discovering yet another unsettling situation, continuing what William Clayton called “her abuse” until Joseph must have lost his temper and employed “harsh measures” to stop Emma (“The Emma Smith Lore Reconsidered,” by Linda King Newell, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 17, no. 3, p. 91).
All of this is out there for those who wish to research it and study it out. I can’t imagine what Emma Smith went through. She was barely learning about the polygamy thing when the revelation was given. Can you imagine once you started finding the “hidden” wives? I would be sitting in church looking at all the women wondering if my husband had slept with her. So sad. It is well documented that Joseph took his first polygamist wife in 1833 and Emma wasn’t aware of her or most of the others. She didn’t give in and consent to the Partridge sisters until July of 1843 not knowing that they were already married to Joseph in March! Or that he had been married to Fanny Alger for the past 10 years! He was an upstanding guy for sure!
So guys, where is Wyoming Willie? I haven’t seen him here for awhile. I think he would rather enjoy this thread! Also I haven’t seen f_melo in a long time. Anyone know what’s up with him?
falcon, I too have wondered about Helen’s true identity. I also have a sneaking suspicion she isn’t Helen. That’s OK though, Helen is getting some great information out to the inquiring minds of Mormons! Great discussions!
Falcon,
You can buy more spice of my blog when you need/want some. Just click on my name, It should take you to my foodblog.
As far as taking Helen out, I would rather we stay at someone’s home and I cook, since I do that for a living anyway.
Also weather Helen is as she says, or some other under a fake name, that brings up a good point. We had a mormon who lied about who they were because they were kicked off of here, but came back under a fake name, then asked flat out, are you the former…..
They said no I am not, but then later was busted and expoused. So It seems some LDS do follow their church and their father and resort to lies to push what they believe.
Helen,
You responded, “Thank you, my point being that the law of God requires that permission must be first given by the first virgin who one is married too.”
Helen, unless you think that one’e wife is more important than God, I would say that the fact that Sarai [Sarah] talked Abram [Abraham] into doing something that was not part of God’s plan and made everyone involved miserable, not to mention generations of people to follow, is the main thing to be gleaned from the passages I quoted and referred to. What good is permission gleaned from a person who is not listening to the voice of God?
I was reading through the comments about retention rates and thought about this. I found this article posted on an anti-Christian Mormon Page, (Not the site where the article originated) and it was titled: “Beyond Godmakers: Mormon Conversion”
Well, this person claimed to have gotten “converted” after seeing a bunch of ‘anti-Mormon’ material. The anti-Christians were crowing about it, and so I went and read the article. At the bottom, it said:
“Along the way, I realized that what I was reading was not new information to me, but I had a very clear sense that I was relearning things I had once known, but had forgotten.”
“I was politely captured by the charming sister missionaries assigned to that ward. It also didn’t take me long to know for certain that I had in fact found the true Church or to decide to be baptized.”
Then the eventual:
“I’m somewhat inactive these days due to my own issues…”
And this:
“but have never since 1994 doubted the truth of the Restored Gospel or the Prophet Joseph Smith and his successors.”
Must have been SOME conversion! But this person will be listed as one of the 12 million or so that ‘know’ the Mormon gospel is ‘true’, and used to say how fast they are growing and ‘retaining’ members. How many others are swayed by the ‘charming misionaries’ that give the watered down, one-sided history of Mormonism? _johnny
Kate,
Wyoming Wille called me a couple of week ago because his computer had fried and he needed to wait a little while before he got a new one. It’s kind of funny how a person gets to be friends with folks off-line. I talk with and e mail Andy Watson (Berean) all the time. Here we are, close friends and we’ve never met face to face. fmelo has been very busy as of late. I also e mail with him some.
What happens with these Mormon folks when they finally figure out that JS was bedding all these women. What’s the fall back position when you’ve been clinging to a lie that he was “sealed” to them but not intimate (with them)?
I don’t get it!
Grindael, what is reality? 13 million members, less then 50% are active, less then two thirds of those who are active are Temple Recommend Holders and tithe payers. This is not news, talk to any Bishop and he will back those facts up by sharing his own Ward experiences and the reports he gets back on active and inactive, tithe payers and those who are not, temple recommends he issue compared to the number of members.
Reality is the lost sheep that Christ preached about.
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
falcon,
Thanks for the update on our friends! I’ve honestly missed them both on here!
I guess the reason Mormons don’t want to believe Joseph slept with all those women is because they know how immoral it was, so they have to convince themselves that he only married them for some super spiritual thing that is going to happen in the eternities. You touched on a point earlier that I had never thought about. How were their husbands supposed to get into the CK? They need to be sealed in the new and everlasting covenant right? Now a few of those women were married to men who weren’t members, but some of those men were very righteous and were even Joseph’s good friends. Crazy stuff!
I agree. I was actually thinking about this the other day while driving! The fact that these men were deprived their chance at the CK, because JS went ahead and got sealed to their wives. Even if the men weren’t members, how did JS know they’d never become one in the future? I wonder what would happen my husband figured he’d never get sealed to me (duh), so he went ahead and got sealed to some other lady without my knowledge. Adultery is adultery, whether it’s physical, emotional, or in this case, spiritual. It divides families (or churches, in the lds case) and wreaks havoc on all involved. I can’t even imagine being in Emma’s shoes, wondering who was secretly married to my husband. Who had slept with him without my knowledge? All in the “name of God”. Kate all of the quotes you gave about Emma were great. This was exactly why I posted the D&C scriptures before about how Emma obviously needed some “extra convincing” from God… hence the “do this or I’ll destroy you” revelations. hahaha. Seriously?? How is there any room for argument on that?? And somehow God’s law changed? What happens when God decides he’s okay with theft or lying (or maybe in JS’s case, he was? maybe JS forgot to write down that revelation…)?? I mean, ya never know anymore. First God says marriage is between Adam and Eve (and not Sue and Sally and Stella), and now he says marrying more than one woman is a command?? Hmm. Sounds awfully wishywashy to me. I’d rather serve the God of the Bible, thankyouverymuch. The one who is consistent and that I can trust in.
I’m still waiting for a reply from Helen on lots of questions, including the I will DESTROY Emma and Polygamy is an abomination in my eyes. Lets see, It was, but now it’s not and it is not so much that I God will Kill the prophets wife if she does not allow her husband to take married girls and make women out of them. Yea, that does not sound like the God of the Bible I worship. It sounds like the God of this world, Satan.
Marriedamormon,
I’m with you. I’ll take the God of the Bible as well. The wishy washy stuff is maddening to me. I don’t think that God would put us women through the trials of polygamy. He knows our hearts and how hurtful that is to a woman. Why would he ever command us to be hurt in such a way?
Rick,
I’ve put that baby to bed! LOL! I’m bored discussing polygamy with Helen. It doesn’t matter how much we show, even from LDS canon, Helen isn’t listening. Helen wants to believe what Helen wants to believe.
Married and Kate,
It is ok if a guy wants many women. But now if a women wanted many men, that would be wrong.
I’ll use myself as an example, I would be al for it if GOD said, Rick, I want you to sleep with many women and marry many women. Boy I could be on board with that, I could be a “Legal” In the eys of God, a pron star for lack of a better term.
But now if my wife came to me and said, Rick, God commanded me to have many husbands, and I need to simply abide by that or God would kill me, I would tell her, I probably would kill you if you were sleeping with many men, and claiming it was all in the name of God. I would also say, you have lost your mind and question what drugs your taking.
I guess it all depends upon who gets the “rewards” for lack of a better term. Guys are happy when they get the women, but the guys are not happy if it’s the women who get the men. But the women would be happy. It’s really sad since we all know God did not say that.
Rick! I’m cracking up over here! You said that the women would be happy if they got the men! I have enough dirty laundry, dishes etc to wash thank you! That would create so much more work for us women! Ha ha ha!
Kate,
You know what I meant. But you could also argue that with lots of wives comes lots of dishes and dirty laundry, Etc. And you could make the claim that a husband does favor one or two wives over the others, either because he thinks they are better looking, willing to “do more” In bed or partner up, therefore the husband returns the favor by saying, these wives do not have to do house hold chores.
Call me crazy, But If I can think like this, then surly other men do, have and so did J.S.
Yea crazy Rick B. the men I know and talked with said that one is enough, guess you are different. 🙂
What’s a pron star?
Helen
Actually, Rick, I made that exact argument a long time ago to my husband. I told him that I think I should start up polyandry. Why not? It was okay for the guys to start up polygamy. He acted completely disgusted and wasn’t the least bit amused. The thought of his girlfriend marrying more than one guy made him sick. So I asked him what’s the difference? You don’t think the women of polygamous marriages feel the same? They just have to rationalize it in their heads, because they’ve been told it’s a command from God. And back in JS time, there probably weren’t many places to escape to if they decided to make a break for it. Did any of yall ever see the special TLC did awhile back? Not the Sister Wives thing, but a different one. A girl went to check out a few of the FLDS homes. One man had two wives already. They lived in a trailer in the desert, and he was leaving to go find another wife. In the more wealthier home (think sister wives), she interviewed all of the wives and asked their feelings on the situation. They danced around the issue, stating how it makes them better people by overcoming jealousy, serving others, etc. Finally, she got to interview the first wife, and the woman eventually broke down. She told her how she hated the subsequent wives. It took her a long time to be okay with it.
The interviewer asked her why she even put up with it in the first place. And finally, after a week of asking, the woman told her that this insures that they will get to heaven. The interviewer was appalled.
I just thought it was fascinating that these people, who are still following “God’s initial command”, are the ones the main lds people say are wrong. They have pictures of JS hanging up. They sing the same songs. They read the same scriptures. But because the main lds don’t like the look of modern day polygamy, they get deemed apostate. What they don’t realize is what they’re looking at is the reality of where they came from. I told my husband that if gay marriage is instituted, then I don’t why the mormons don’t try to legalize polygamy if it’s so important. That’ll be a fun one to watch them wriggle out of. Wouldn’t want the new investigators to be disgusted and walk away… 🙂
Reply to marriedamormon
Except for one huge reason you left out of the mix, Prophets of God don’t make the rules, or Gods Law.
To institue Gods Law would mean having our Prophet receive revelation first. Big difference then your stated reasoning above.
Helen/Louis
I just want to let anyone who comes here to just read, call them lurkers or investigators, that some of us were saying were tired of Helen avoiding our questions, and we are done talking with here.
I just want to let everyone know, I was talking with God and He reveled to me, Helen is not dodging questions, she is simply not correct me because I am not wrong. So here is a brief run down.
I told Helen that if the reformed Egyptian language does not exist, then the BoM is a fraud and cannot be true. She did not correct me and say, Yes Rick the language does exist, here is evidence.
I asked her about God saying He would kill Emma if she did not go along and allow JS to take many wives. Helen never corrected me saying thats not true.
I asked Helen about how JS had 9 first vision accounts and they cannot all be true since they spanned many years and contradict one another. Helen did not correct me on that issue and said, Rick your wrong here is the truth.
I told Helen, Her church and members do not love us and care about us since they choose to run from honest questions, they dont tells us where we are wrong, and show us no love, since her church is not based upon Jesus Christ, but it is based and built upon JS.
Cont,
Helen never corrected me on this issue saying, yes Rick we do love you guys, want to share the truth and see you saved. I can point out more topics/questions that Helen Never confronted me on. Also Helen states God does not give us revelation, actually God does speak to us believers, I’m correcting her on that. God did speak to me, told me since Helen is not correcting me then she admits we are correct and proving what she believes is based upon lies and her church is founded by a false prophet.
Example, Bill mentions in the Video how the MM’s leave out lots of facts, and they only mention them if we happen to know the subject and bring it up to them, Also many posters have mentioned how the vast majority of LDS leaders and some MM’s lie by things they leave out. Helen never correct us saying thats not true. Rick b
Rick B. 🙂
Correct answers:
1). There is no evidence yet that Reformed Egyptian exists.
2). Nine visions, how many did JS actually write himself, how many were accounts by others?
3). Love? give me your address and I will have some loving Missionaries come to you home and lovingly teach you the truth.
I’m glad to hear you now believe in Revelation, since God spoke to you about me.
Blessing, Helen/Louis 🙂
Rick B. stated, “Helen never correct us saying thats not true. ”
Ok Rick B. is it true you can prove that two men were killed by Joseph Smith at Carthage.
If not then don’t you think it would be fair to say that it is supposed that JS might have killed two men at
Carthage?
All Mormons are asking for is a fair and balanced Forum, where facts and evidence are supported with validated sources or concrete references, not speculation.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Rick B. stated, Emma was to be killed? correct answer is destroyed. What exactly did God mean by destroyed?
God threatened to destroy her? Since it is not stated whether this destruction would be temporal or eternal we can only speculate.
An earlier verse makes it clear that death will “destroy” all that is not sanctioned and endorsed by God, including marriage contracts (DC 132:12-14). The section then draws a distinction between being “destroyed” and “destroyed in the flesh.” (DC 132:26)—thus some sinners may suffer physical “buffeting” by Satan while their marital relationship may remain sanctioned.
Critics often neglect to provide citations from eye-witnesses who reported Emma’s attitude toward plural marriage at other times:
Allen J. Stout, who served as a bodyguard for Joseph, recounted a conversation he overheard in the Mansion House between Joseph and his tormented wife. A summary of his account states that “from moments of passionate denunciation [Emma] would subside into tearful repentance and acknowledge that her violent opposition to that principle was instigated by the power of darkness; that Satan was doing his utmost to destroy her, etc. And solemnly came the Prophet’s inspired warning: ‘Yes, and he will accomplish your overthrow, if you do not heed my counsel.'”
Emma’s inner conflict was also dramatized in another report:
Maria Jane Johnston, who lived with Emma as a servant girl, recalled the Prophet’s wife looking very downcast one day and telling her that the principle of plural marriage was right and came from Heavenly Father.
God told me to marry more men. Because I’m a goddess and should be treated as such. 🙂
Honestly, helen, that’s kind of our point. This revelation was no revelation at all, but a twisted perverted scam from a false prophet.
I have good news for some people and bad news for other people.
You all will know who you are. I went to the Lord in prayer, He told me that the Reformed Egyptian does not exist, it has been over 200 years and no evidence has surfaced and never will.
God told me that JS had the 9 first vision accounts and so it really does not matter who wrote them since they were “Visions” By JS, not some other man.
God told me Destroyed means Killed in this life here and now. God told me becasue I asked Him, He speaks to his people despite what the LDS say, and I know He spoke because I am a son of God and went to him prayer. He told me JS is a false prophet and That settles it.
Corrections are meant to be a way of help another to understand that what they perceive is not always what is reality. If God said she was to be destroyed, a verb, it could mean many different things. Blot out, dismantle, end, and nullify.
I don’t think in any way the verse meant to Kill, annihilate, crush, butcher, extinguish, maim or slay. Of course since those who accuse Joseph Smith of receiving revelation, which is found in the above verse, it natural for the enemies of our Religion to promote the more tabloid type of meanings; same as they do when bleating out that Mormons preach that Jesus and Satan are brothers instead of stating correctly that in the pre-existence which we believe is true doctrine, we were all with God the Father who created our spirits and gave us agency to choose to come here to the earth and be tested and so in context we understand that Lucifer a brother not only to Christ but to all of us is a fallen angel who rebelled against Christ and God. Of course the tabloid sensationalism is fair game and we just have to nod our heads and realize that they just don’t get it.
Destroy or kill? one who has a agenda use the word kill, those who understand the truth know that destroy denotes loss of blessings, covenants, and even priesthood. .
I really hate to rain on the LDS parade,
But I went to God in prayer and this is what God told me.
He told me that the Reformed Egyptian does not exist, it has been over 200 years and no evidence has surfaced and never will.
God told me that JS had the 9 first vision accounts and so it really does not matter who wrote them since they were “Visions” By JS, not some other man.
God told me Destroyed means Killed in this life here and now. God told me becasue I asked Him, He speaks to his people despite what the LDS say, and I know He spoke because I am a son of God and went to him prayer. He told me JS is a false prophet and That settles it.
Since God told me this, I choose to believe Him over some LDS person. And the LDS keep accusing us Christians of not going to God in prayer, saying we dont believe in revelation, that God speaks to us and other such crap. God told me I believe Him that settles it.
Rick B. God has spoken to you, If you received revelation then you are to be congratulated for finding the truth you sought for. I commend anyone who does as God states in James 1:5 for He will give wisdom to those who ask sincerely for it. You have just done exactly what God would ask any man or women to do, search, study, ponder, then pray for confirmation. Trust not the arm of man, for God will reveal himself to those who knock.
King James Bible
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Rick B. you did knock and seek and it was given unto you and you found the truth and answer to your prayers. What else can I say, but God Bless.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Seems we have a problem Helen,
God clearly spoke to me, Said your wrong, your following a false prophet, JS is a fraud and a liar and your church is an abonation in his site as well as the false teachings and lies that come from it.
Supposdly JS heard from God and JS said that about us, we cannot both be correct, But the good news is, I know I am correct because JS is dead, we cannot listen to past leaders and revelation , so theirfore I am correct and heard truth spoken from God/Jesus
Rick, I actually had one Mormon tell me (because I quoted Gordon Hinckley) “He is retired, why are you targeting him?” So now Mormon ‘prophets’ are ‘retired’, and thence free from any scrutiny of their statements. What a great system that has been set up and fine tuned by modern Mormons to get out of holding anyone accountable in their Church. Apology at it’s worst: ‘Deny Everything’, Apology is Policy’, ‘Deceive Inveigle Obfuscate’ , ‘E Pur Si Muove’, and it goes on and on…
Rick B. you did knock and seek and it was given unto you and you found the truth and answer to your prayers. What else can I say, but God Bless.
Helen/Louis 🙂
If your saying I found the truth, then why do you choose to believe lies? And lead people to an eternal and Christless eterinty by speading false teachings? We both cannot be correct, and God told me your wrong.
God answered your prayers and answered your questions, who am I to disagree? God also has revealed to me certain truths,
1). Jesus is Lord and Saviour
2). Both the Bible and Book of Mormon are the word of God
3). Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.
God never told me that you’re wrong.
Helen/Louis 🙂
What a bummer for you Helen, God did speak to me and said, Helen is wrong, He (God) never told you that stuff and your an enemy of His since your following a false prophet and teaching another gospel, and He said you will spend eternity apart from Him unless you repent. He also said your listing to your father, the Devil and he is the god of this world that comes in the form of an angel of light and decived you and others.
You found the truth and answers to your prayers. What else can I say, but God Bless.
Helen/Louis
What is really sad Helen is,
You and all other TBM reject God and His word in Favor of a false prophet, and as a result this is whats awaiting you.
And what even worse, Is for all of eterinty you will be haunted by the fact that so many people cared enough to tell you the truth and even show you, and you willfully rejected it therefore bringing you to to eternal destruction. That is really sad.
Thats strange, since It has been revealed to me that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Are you going to tell me that I have not in any way received this into my heart? What say you, seems that according to orthodox Christianity I’m saved with elect and chosen? My Salvation is guaranteed by Grace alone.
Helen/Louis.
Helen said
According to Gal 1:8-9 and what God has said, Yes I am going to say I dont believe you are saved and dont know the real Jesus.
Now you can come back and throw a fit and claim I am judging you, but your church judges us and tells us that what we believe is wrong and an abomnation in the sight of God. It also tells us that the FLDS and RLDS are not Mormons or Christians, so you guys judge others. Then you really have nothing to say, you only want to say something, big difference, that is why you so clearly go out of your way to avoid questions, and only claim to correct us on things, but then those corrections are not even that.
These so called corrections are simply your mere opinion because you have to avoid so much teaching and scripture that does not agree with you to make what you say sound correct. But never fear, the vasy majority of lurkers for lack of a better term understand this. And no I will not reply over this, so if you fell you can say what you want in the last responce, have at it, you not serious in anyway and really dont know what you believe so you cannot debate seriously so you only hide behind the catch phrase, I’m correcting you.
Orthodox Christianity states that one is saved by the Grace of God, so one need only accept Jesus into their heart and confess Him as Lord and Savior. I have not yet seen any other qualifier or disclaimer from my Christian friends. You now add Gal 1:8-9 to the mix and don’t even realize the error you make by quoting that verse. This was a warning to the Galatians (members of the Church) that some were trying to change the doctrine of circumcision. That even Peter and Paul were at odds over this Jewish custom. You Rick B. would be wise to understand the history behind that verse before ever using it again in such a incorrect fashion.
2 Nephi 28:15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!
The only thing I can think is that you are thinking that all 10,000+ denominations of Christianity agree with each other. Hardly Rick B.
Carry on, Helen/Louis 🙂