Earlier this week I mentioned the Politico post that drew attention to a local news report in Memphis in which the reporter talked to people on the street and asked, “Can you name the [presidential] candidate that’s running for president that believes that if he’s a good person in his religion he will receive his own planet?” Many people who have watched this news segment online have objected to the joking approach the reporter took in discussing Mormonism, but people are also upset because, they insist, the idea that good Mormons will get their own planets is nothing more than an invention by critics of the LDS Church. A sampling of comments left at the Politico web site includes statements like these:
“Wow, the interview was right out of the anti-Mormon playbook. That isn’t what Mormons believe. It’s what anti-Mormons say Mormons believe. And they are not the same thing.”
“Joking about planets and Eden, well, the jokes on you. Neither is a tenant of Mormonism. Rather those are distortions and smears meant to belittle the faith. Get the facts from the source next time. Obviously Ben was getting his facts from anti-Mormons. I would like to see a retraction and an apology.”
“This is why there is so much incorrect teachings on the internet about Mormonism. The idea that good Mormons get their own planet is non doctrinal and has never been taught. This philosophy came about as a way to make the church look stupid.”
“I’ve been an active Mormon for 55 years and have never heard that we get our own planet– what kind of lies are you trying to promote?”
“I have been a Mormon my whole life and I’ve never even heard about this planet thing until the musical hit Broadway. It’s not part of the doctrine of the Church and it’s definitely not in the consciousness of the membership. I’m not sure where these people get that idea.”
Mormon blogger Joanna Brooks at least recognized a valid LDS source for this doctrine when she wrote,
“Sure, it’s a distorting and sensationalistic caricature of Mormon beliefs to say that all of us believe we’re going to get our own planets. You could sit in your local Mormon Church for a month of Sundays and hear no reference to it. Even among orthodox Mormons, talk of planets (and the American location of the Garden of Eden—another matter ridiculed by Ferguson) is the subject of gentle insider humor, a nod to older strains of Mormon belief and folklore.”
The fact is, this doctrine, which states that worthy Mormons can (and will) achieve the status of Godhood and then form and populate worlds (planets), has been taught in Mormonism since the days of Brigham Young. The doctrine was clearly articulated in an LDS Student Manual as recently as 1976, and Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote about it in The Millennial Messiah, published less than 30 years ago.
Some Mormons today wonder where non-Mormons “get that idea.” Clearly, the idea has come from Mormon leaders: President Brigham Young, President Lorenzo Snow, Apostle Orson Pratt, Apostle Moses Thatcher, Apostle Melvin Ballard, President Joseph Fielding Smith, and Apostle Bruce McConkie, as well as official LDS publications, to name a few. (For the actual statements from these Mormon leaders please see “Will Exalted Mormons Get Their Own Spirit Children and Planets?” at mrm.org)
I cannot say what individual Mormons believe; but apparently many of them think this doctrine is “belittling,” “anti-Mormon,” and makes the Church “look stupid.” The questions I have for them, then, are these: Are you comfortable belonging to a church that teaches this doctrine? Will you pin your hope for eternal life on a succession of LDS Church leaders who have not only believed they will populate and rule planets, but have taught that, if you are worthy enough, you will, too? Are you willing to worship as God a man who has achieved his godhood and planets a mere generation before you? This is what Mormon leaders and the Church have taught — and Mormon members have believed — since the 1800s. Why haven’t they told you?
Whats really sad and we have witnessed it on this board is, we can show mormons from their books what their prophets have said and taught. They replys we get are, They did not mean that, we dont know what they meant, it’s not an offical Church book, even though we can prove it was printed and stamped by the LDS.
It really all boils down to, they believe what they want to believe. while it’s true many dont know what was taught, and the Church does not teach or share a lot of this stuff, much is still known yet refused to be believed since they really want to believe what they want to be true.
Then we get people coming on here saying, While I dont believe God exists, I’m here to help the Mormons get all the facts since the Christains clearly wont give them. Yet when we show the facts, these people never say, well I guess I was wrong, you are showing them things the Church wont, maybe I better get out their and help the poor misguided LDS see what the prophets are not showing them. This just is another example that some people have both an agenda to push and like it or not are tools satan is using,
What the church membership doesn’t seem to realize is that a lot of people really do understand church doctrine. LDS scripture, manuals, policies and so forth are readily available online. Anyone who wants to know exactly what the Mormons believe is about 5 minutes away from knowing. Sure a little exaggeration might be used every once in a while, but the reporter basically had his facts straight. For church members to march in, crying “lies” is hair-splitting.
I remember the first time I heard that men would have their own planet to rule. My friend who was new to Mormonism called me upset because in church that day, the Sunday School teacher said he couldn’t wait to die so that he could be a god and have his own planet. I admitted to her that I had never heard it and pulled out my Mormon Doctrine book by Bruce R. McConkie. It was in there. I was floored. It is taught by those with enough courage to do it. It IS Mormon doctrine.
“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood…We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.” (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48)
Remember you are not going to leave this earth. You will never leave it until you become qualified, and capable, and capacitated to become a father of an earth yourselves. (Heber C. Kimball, JD 1:356)
In 2001 Elder Eyring quoted Spencer W. Kimball:
Elder Eyring told the young adults that the real life they are preparing for is eternal life. “Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance,” he said. “Our conviction is that God our Heavenly Father wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 386)
It is still a core doctrine. People who don’t know it, are being misled.
As for the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, I was taught that. I believed that because it was put out there at church. I remember having discussions about it at home. The poster who said “the joke’s on you” about this is sadly misinformed. I don’t see where there is a need for an apology or a retraction. I’m sure Politico, where this guy works, is very familiar with what is legal to put out there and what is not. They would never have allowed that segment to be put out there in the public if any part of it were a lie. There are rules.
I’m thinking that Mormons should stop complaining about the weirdness that is put out there and start looking to see where those claims are coming from! As mossface said, it only takes about 5 minutes and the click of a mouse.
I don’t know how folks can be so totally ignorant regarding what their church teaches. There is basic, old time orthodox Mormonism and it hasn’t changed (well for a few little exceptions like blacks in the priesthood for example).
This ignorance on the part of Mormons and the reluctants of Mormon leadership to be up-front about what they believe, is the reason that folks outside the religion think Mormons are liars.
I can understand the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot sects of Mormonism getting upset because they don’t believe any of these things that set the SLC LDS a part. The FLDS are loud and proud about men becoming gods etc.
There’s really not a way that these basic beliefs can be verbalized without sounding odd, strange, peculiar and like there coming from left field. Mormons who do know the doctrine and believe it, like to think that those who don’t just aren’t up-to-speed spiritually.
The more odd, peculiar and convoluted a doctrine is, the more cultists love it. It’s these very features that make it attractive to a certain segment of people.
In my experience, Mormons who know the doctrine brush it off as “not important.” In fact, that was exactly what I was told once. In a conversation about salvation v. exaltation, I was told something along the lines of this (I’m paraphrasing what was said to me):
“Exaltation is our belief that it’s possible to become gods and goddesses. Lowercase. I know you don’t agree, and that’s okay.”
My reaction? “That’s okay?” Really? No, it’s not okay. Pretty much, the person said, this is what we believe and it’s not really important so we’re not going to focus on it. Complete brush-off.
And the conversation went on to argue that the belief that it’s possible to become a god or goddess (lowercase, btw, was emphasized) in no way meant that Mormons were polytheistic. I know that’s not what this entry was about, but it’s important. Not only is the belief sacrilegious and comes from Satan himself (see Genesis 3:4-5), but it is selfish and false and disrespects the one true God, of whom these is no other.
I must facetiously ask: If the future exalted Gods won’t put their spirit children on planets, where will they live? A burning star? A 2-dimensional plane that orbits a neighboring star? Do they just float around in space without any surface to stand on? The “get their own planets” issue really just speaks to the larger theology of becoming Gods and having spirit children and furthering the genealogy of the Gods. Joanna knows that this is traditional Mormon theology, still a significant part of mainstream Mormon thought. She is just abusing the area of non-committal yet significant Mormon theology that Mormonism fosters and implies (and even sometimes explicates!), yet doesn’t want to be held accountable for.
I have written elsewhere: I get the impression that committed Mormons [1] oftentimes want at some level for their religion to be misunderstood, for it to remain esoteric and elusive. It is as though direct light on the shadowy religion would kill the precious shadow itself, hence it must be protected from the light of illumination. There is power seen in ambiguity, strength in ambivalence, solidarity in equivocation, encouragement in non-officiality.
[1] Joanna Brooks isn’t even a theologically committed Mormon! She is basically like (analogously speaking) an agnostic Reformed Jew. She is of the Mormonism-is-useful-and-my-beloved-tradition-even-if-it-is-fundamentally-false John Dehlin crowd.
I think that Mossface has a good point . Just because Mormons have not been
told the exact words of , ” you will get your own planet ” etc then this
allows them to rationalize out of what their leaders have taught as spiritual
truth. It’s splitting hairs. I think it gets down to the fact that Mormons are
unaware of so many aberrant doctrines that their leaders have taught that
when they hear of these it is easier to quickly deny them rather than check
it out.
M.R.
Wow is this the pot calling the kettle black. Mormonism asserts a doctrine of continuous revelation:
a) all human institutions head towards corruption
b) all revelation will be understood more poorly as distance separates us from the original revelation
c) and additional revelations can be given to change our understanding of previous revelations, hence the need for prophetic leadership.
d) creeds, statements of belief and teaching are by their very nature corruptions
e) Because of this the canon itself is open and able to be changed.
Now lets contrast this with Evangelical Christianity which asserts that its doctrines represent the “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3). In the case of Evangelical Christianity, the assumption is that the canon closed, the truth is well known and easily understood from a single book, the bible. And from here they fall into 2 groups:
a) Creedal, they recognize a small number of preachers as authentically reading the bible while the other 98% of Christians are somehow structurally deficient and thus teachings can be ignored. But even here they don’t stand behind their teachings authoritatively and deny them as fashion changes.
b) Non creedal, that don’t recognize anyone other than themselves as authority. Their opinion of the truth vacillates with Christian fashion.
Take a look at what your leaders have said and done.
CD-Host, for some unexplained reason the comment limit (6) has not been operative for your comments. To remedy this I’m afraid all of your comments will now be held in moderation before being approved for posting. When you have reached the 6-comment limit each day, any additional comments submitted in that day will not be approved for posting. Unfortunately, because this is being managed manually, you will not get a notification that you have reached your daily limit so you will need to keep track for yourself. The comment you posted at 3:10 today was your 6th comment. Thank you for your patience and understanding.
CD,
There are a few problems with your theory. First, The Bible is not just one book. It’s many books put together. You either believe that those books are inspired of God or you don’t. You obviously don’t. Mormons say they do, but attach a condition “so long as it is translated correctly” in other words, by a Mormon.
Continuous revelation is a Mormon cop out. The thing here is God is not a God of confusion. Let’s take the nature of God for example. Why would God say that he is the only God?
BoM, Alma 11:26-29
26 – And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 – And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 – Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 – And he answered, No.
Then change his mind and say he is one of millions of gods (King Follett discourse) and you can become one too. You can be a god of your own planet and have spirit children of your own.
Then change his mind and say No wait! I am actually Adam! (Brigham Young’s teachings)
Then No wait! I am back to being one of many gods, I’m really not Adam.
I lay it out like this so you can see the absurdity of “continuous revelation.” Mormonism and it’s teachings are so wishy washy and constantly changing, that it’s no wonder Mormons don’t know their own doctrines and teachings. What is said today may not be what is said tomorrow! What was definately said yesterday is not what is said today! I’ll stick with the Bible that has been here for almost 2,000 years.
If Mormons were to be upfront and honest from the get-go they would tell their prospects that:
1. Their god is one of many gods.
2. Their god was once a sinful man who through concentrated effort morphed from man to god.
3. Their god lives on a planet; on or near the planet Kolob.
4 Their god lives with his many wives with whom he procreates spirit children.
5. These spirit babies obtain human bodies and are placed on the planet earth.
6. These spirit-to-mortal beings also have an opportunity to morph into gods also if they join the LDS church, pay 10% of their income (to the church), perform temple rituals, receive all church callings (jobs), and live the Word of Wisdom.
7. These new gods will then have their own planets to rule and will repeat the sequence of birthing spirit babies with their wives who will also have the opportunity to become gods.
So there you have it. I wrote this without mocking or passion. I just stated the facts. Why do Mormons deny this and tell us we have it wrong?
If these points are not accurate, would someone correct them by explaining how we have it wrong. I’d also be interested, then, in what is true regarding the Mormon god and Mormon salvation.
I don’t know why, but I thought this would be a good place to provide this link concerning the life of a woman who was born in the first part of the last century and was married in the Salt Lake City Mormon temple. Mormons are given to progressive revelation and miraculous appearances so I thought this woman’s experiences might be of interest. The bio-blip also references the many gods of Mormonism.
http://www.parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story#marriage
Aaron —
I had a good response to you but I lost it. I know you know Orson Pratt, remember that spirit children are a different organization of matter like: dark matter, dark energy, short lived hadrons… Since spirit doesn’t react chemically or nuclearly and presumably gravitationally its doubtful they would even be aware of the baryon structure (i.e. planet vs. empty vs. star) from our perspective. The same way you don’t notice the enormous amounts of dark matter passing through your body every second. Planet is an analogy. Hugh Nibley addressed Kolob as metaphor.
Kate —
Couldn’t agree more that the bible is a small library not a single book. As for the doctrines contradicting, I disagree. You see this sort of theology of a unitary being, understandably only as a perfectly reoccurring infinite theme in a Hinduism, Egyptian mythology, in Catholicism… and I’d argue the origin of the trinity. Its not meaningfully part of Evangelical Christianity but its not an uncommon idea.
Sharon —
The 6 limit was working fine. 3:10 was 6 and I hit it right on the next post. Which as chance would have it is, why I lost that post to Aaron.
Mike R —
Fair enough, this will be my last. You all have fun.
FALCON somethings to note from your comments.
1. Their god is one of many gods.
There is a God. Who rules over this planet and possible this whole universe. How far along in the pedigree He is (is there a grandfather or great grandfather or great great grandfather) I do not know. He is the one that I worship.
2.Their god was once a sinful man who through concentrated effort morphed from man to god.
We do not know what God did in his earthly life or how long the process is from our existence here to becoming a god.
3.Their god lives on a planet; on or near the planet Kolob.
I have read this but do not remember the reference.
4 Their god lives with his many wives with whom he procreates spirit children.
I first heard this from an Ed Decker movie. I cannot find the manual I read this in but God organizes spirits then
5.These spirit babies obtain human bodies and are placed on the planet earth.
They are born to human parents.
6.These spirit-to-mortal beings also have an opportunity to morph into gods also if they join the LDS church, pay 10% of their income (to the church), perform temple rituals, receive all church callings (jobs), and live the Word of Wisdom.
There is a lot more to becoming gods than this.
for #7
What happens in the next universe and where they will be born and what time in there history is in their history.
In reading the blogs recently I understand you work with the mentally challenged. If you do then according to mormonism you are working with the most valiant spirits in the pre-existence. You may become a god before me.
I referenced Lyndon Lamborn in a previous post and lo-and-behold an article about him appeared recently in a news publication. I’ve had some e mail exchanges with Lyndon and have watched a couple of his videos on YouTube.
For me, Lyndon presents one of those good news, bad news type of stories. His quest to dig into Mormonism led him to the truth about his religion. He couldn’t reconcile what he found and remain a Mormon. At the time Lyndon thought he’d probably end-up in a Christian church but unfortunately, his lost faith in Mormonism led to his loss of faith in any form of religion.
Andy Watson and I have discussed this often and have wondered if Mormons are better off ignorant of Mormonisms history and belief system and lost, or out of Mormonism and lost (spiritually).
Without Christ, Mormons and ex-Mormons are lost (either way). I read a lot of testimonies of ex-Mormons who are now atheists. They are definitely happier being free from what they felt was the oppression and grind of the Mormon system not to mention the bizarre belief structure. They also enjoy their new found freedom to think outside of the limitations of the Mormon box.
I guess I wonder if these folks identify God too closely with organized religion?
It is possible to have a vibrate faith in Jesus and a close walk with the Lord without subscribing to a certain church denomination. When I read the quotes that Lyndon uses in his book about religion, I couldn’t help but think that he was missing the point about “faith”. I put my faith and trust for eternal life in Jesus and what He did for me on the cross. I belong to the mystical body of Christ; because of a common faith.
http://blogs.evtrib.com/spirituallife/2011/07/04/lds-excommunication-of-lyndon-lamborn-revisited/
Well as for Helen and Louis, we both believe in Exaltation. What is Exaltation? “then shall they be gods, because they have no end…then shall they be gods, because they have all power…” D&C 132:16-26. Romans 8: 14-18 points out that we are sons of God, and thus can be JOINT HEIRS with Christ, and that we will be glorified together with a degree of glory. That pretty much summarizes LDS doctrine! It’s not unchristian.
CD-Host, I don’t know how to explain it, but I count 8 to 12 comments from you per day for several days running. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I’m going to leave things as they are re placing your comments in moderation before posting.
Are ex-Mormons better off now being out of Mormonism? Sure, that could be said in some respects and the benefits would be numerous. However, what matters most is, are they better off spiritually? As Falcon stated, they are not because they are still spiritually lost. Lost is lost – period. I’m not a fan of these “hip-hip-hoorah” groups that celebrate ex-Mormons who have left the cult, who are now outspoken against Mormonism, and now their new savior is the Richard Dawkins or Bart Ehrman (atheists). Mormons have left one false system of lies and walked right into another equally disastrous system: atheism.
Why is atheism the natural path to go for ex-Mormons? Satan is the mastermind behind these cults (Mormons, JW’s, Christian Science, etc.). These false systems have many common characteristics. They use real Christian terminology but yet the cults redefine the words. They have a Bible (KJV) they carry around. They go to their worship services on Sunday. They sing songs. They pay a tithe and give offerings. They do works.
Those in Christianity do pretty close to the same thing (with the exception of many today not carrying around the KJV Bible) except the reasons they are doing these things is completely different than those in Mormonism. However, the ex-Mormons don’t know this. All they see is the external and this immediately turns them off because of the false system they just left. There is nothing more devastating to a person than to realize that one has been “had” – tricked or betrayed. Loss of large amounts of money and deceased loved ones in a false system only exacerbates the problem. Most ex-Mormons are angry and rightfully so. Any form of religion to them is equated with Mormonism. Their only hope is the real Jesus.
Sharon, as always, I enjoyed reading your article. Thank you for your research, volunteer efforts ar MRM, and most importantly, your service to the Living God in which you have eternal life not dependent upon any of your works. Here are a couple of my favorite LDS quotes on the topic at hand that you raised in your article.
“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people.” (Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 29)
“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones” ( Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 37).
I would be remiss leaving out this LDS “nugget” regarding the topic in Sharon’s article. Who is ignorant? The commentators on Politico or Mormons? Read the LDS quotes and decide for yourselves.
“Parents will have eternal claim upon their posterity and will have the gift of eternal increase, if they obtain the exaltation. This is the crowning glory in the kingdom of God, and they will have no end. When the Lord says they will have no end, he means that all who attain this glory will have the blessing of the continuation of ‘seeds’ forever. Those who fail to obtain this blessing come the ‘deaths’, which means that they will have no increase, forever. All who obtain this exaltation will have the privilege of completing the full measure of their existence, and they will have a posterity that will be as innumerable as the stars of heaven.
“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on AN EARTH LIKE THIS ONE we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction OVER WORLDS, and THESE WORLDS will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p.132)
Helen, you and Louis aren’t the only ones who believe in exaltation. Satan does to and he is the one who created the doctrine of exaltation embraced by the LDS Church. Read all about it here in Genesis 3:4-5 in your LDS KJV Bible. Satan said: “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” You don’t have to make the same disastrous mistake that they made, but most Mormons do because they also want to make the same mistake that Satan did in thinking that he could ascend and take the place of the Most High. He got the boot from heaven for it and mankind was given the boot from the garden of Eden. I’d say that’s a losing combination of epic porportions.
You need to be corrected. You aren’t going to become a god. You will become what the LDS manual says you will be: a queen and priestess (a goddess).
“If righteous men have power through the gospel and its crowning ordinance of celestial marriage to become kings and priests to rule in exaltation forever, it follows that the women by their side (without whom they cannot attain exaltation) will be QUEENS AND PRIESTESSES.” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p.132)
Your eternal destiny is hanging on the whims of your current or deceased husband. If he doesn’t call your name in the resurrection, well, then I guess you are out of business for all eternity. Your job for all eternity in the LDS system is being impregnated and delivering babies for the production of your world where you won’t be prayed to. Ask your god’s wife on Kolob how she likes it. That’s right, Mormons don’t know her.
clyde6070,
I got sloppy with #5 on my list above. I do understand that the Mormon placement process of spirit beings to mortal beings is via natural child birth.
I really can’t let you get away with #1 however because I believe it was Orson Pratt who said that if you worship one of the gods you worship all of them. I think he and BY had a little tiff about this. And quite frankly, it doesn’t matter how many or which of the Mormon pantheon of gods you worship, you’re a polytheist.
Help me out with #6. What did I miss regarding what is required of Mormons to become gods.
Now to Romans 8:14-18,
Let me just say from the get-go that Mormons are among the worst when it comes to interpreting Biblical text. Mormons and Biblical exegesis is much like the “hunt and peck” method of typing. Rather than give the proper rendering of the passage, I’ll leave that to someone else on this blog, let me give the basics of Biblical interpretation.
Hermeneutics is a science in that it can determine certain principles for discovering the meaning of a document, these principles are not a mere list of rules but bear organic connection to each other. It is also an art because principles or rules can never be applied mechanically but involve the skill of the interpreter. Someone can learn the rules of hermeneutics and yet be unable to apply them with skill. Generally:
1. Context rules. Each verse must be considered in light of the surrounding verses, the book in which it is found and the entire Word of God. Is the interpretation of a particular section of Scripture consistent with the theme, purpose, and structure of the book in which it is found?
Helen, thanks for the morning chuckle regarding your incorrect exegesis of Romans 8:14-17. If the consequences for such a rendering wasn’t so serious in terms of eternality, it would continue to be funny all day long. I would like to recommend that you take a course in biblical interpretation from a reptutable, sound, Christian school and I don’t mean BYU (if they even do teach this). If I would have rendered that same interpretation and conclusion when I took that class, my professor would have promptly failed me in that particular assignment and I would have been laughed out of the classroom by my classmates.
I never cease to be amazed at how Mormons and others in non-Christian cults abuse and misuse the Word of God. Using your principles of interpretation, I guess I could say that God is a rooster, right? No? Psalm 91:4 says “His pinions…wings.” Or is He a ball of fire in Deut 4:24? I guess I’m not going to be like Christ because my tongue doesn’t look like His in Revelation 1:16. Those are some mighty big hands God has in Isaiah 40:12 that He holds all the earth’s waters in the hollow of His hand. How much water can you hold in the cup of your hand? Half a cup? I guess you aren’t like God now and you won’t ever be. Sorry…game over.
I won’t provide exegesis here for Rom 8:14-17 because I won’t give you the opportunity to malign His holy word. However, I will point you to the qualifier to be a child of God THROUGH ADOPTION (v. 15). The qualifer is in v. 14 – “being led by the Spirit of God.” Mormonism’s spirit is a false spirit, thus you are a child of Satan.
Cont.
2. Always seek the full counsel of the Word of God. When someone knows God’s Word thoroughly, they will not accept a teaching simply because someone has used one or two isolated verses to support it. The verses may have been taken out of context. A person needs to saturate themselves in the Word of God. It safeguards against wrong doctrine such is found in Mormonism.
3. Scripture won’t contradict Scripture. The Bible contains all the truth anyone will ever need. Going outside the Word of God to find truth leads to confused and wrong doctrine like that found in Mormonism. The Bible/Scripture is God breathed. Cults use revelation as a means to take people away from the simple truths that God has revealed. False prophets are like snake oil salesmen. Big on “hub-a-bub-a, razz-a-mataze” glitz, but short on truth.
4. Don’t base convictions on obscure passages of Scripture. This is what cults do. They grab a verse here and there and weave together doctrine that in the end contradicts what the text say.
Revelation, as practiced by Mormons, is like driving around a big city trying to find your way by “feel” rather than consulting a map. God has provided a map that shows the clear road to Him and eternal life. That map is His Word the Bible. A few simple principles of map reading applied correctly keeps the spiritual traveler from getting lost.
Are ex-Mormons better off now being out of Mormonism?
For me, leaving Mormonism was heartbreaking. It’s my heritage. I’m going to say that again, it’s my heritage. Think back on your ancestors, where they came from, who they were, all of that is a lie for me. I think a lot of generational Mormons who leave have felt this way. It was my life. I didn’t know anything else. After researching it was like I didn’t know who I was anymore. Was I angry? Oh yes. For about 3 years. At first I didn’t want anything to do with religion. I could easily have become an Atheist. I have a nephew who is struggling with this right now and he IS becoming an Atheist. I’ve tried to help him, but he’s not in a place to listen yet. I’m in a good place now after 4 years and I’ve come to realize that even though I was born into a Mormon family, the true and living God of the Bible is where I belong. I’m looking back to that heritage. For ex-Mormons like me, the answer to the question above is absolutely yes! For those who give up all together and become Atheist, in my opinion it is the same as being in a false religion. I agree, lost is lost. It’s so hard to explain, but giving your life to Christ and actually knowing who he really is (from the Bible) is so different than how I felt trudging along in the Mormon system. There really is freedom in Christ!
I should add that I’m not a fan of ANY organized religion. I am a non denominational Christian. I don’t trust organized religion at all. That comes from my experience with Mormonism. I do attend a non denominational church off and on, but I don’t believe I have to. I’ll probably never believe in organized religion again. Mormonism leaves scars.
As long as Mormons read the Bible through the lens of Mormonism, they won’t see or spiritually appraise what God has revealed there.
Andy had it right when he said that the key to understanding the Word of God is being led by the Spirit of God. Someone who is not born again cannot enter or see the kingdom God. By what spirit are Mormons led? Well let’s see, they don’t acknowledge God as God but have instead substituted a false god that’s really nothing more than a golden calf. The golden calf had no power to do anything for the children of Israel as they danced and frolicked about it but their prancing about did make them feel good.
The Word of God is “breathed” by Him. He is Spirit and the only ones who will understand what God has breathed forth is someone who has His Spirit living inside them. People who are led by a spirit other than the Spirit of God will render God’s Word in a manner that denigrates the meaning God has revealed.
That’s why in Mormonism we get millions and billions of gods, and men becoming gods and having their own planetary systems to rule and countless minions to worship and adore them. That’s why also we get Mormons placing their hope and trust in everything but the One who can provide for them eternal life.
When people put their trust in false prophets and teachers you end up with false religious systems. False prophets lead by the spirit that leads them.
1 Cortinthians 15:35-49 discredits everything the Mormon church teaches about pre-existence. Don’t miss it.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
But read the entire thing. It’s one of those passages that Mormonism interprets wrong. In fact, Mormons point to it as proving three levels of heaven (because the KJV uses “terrestrial bodies” and “celestial bodies” but what the passage is, in fact, stating is that God created mankind from the dust of the earth. We are given an earthly body. It isn’t until death and eternal life that we receive our heavenly or spiritual body. There was no spiritual body before the earthly one. Pre-existence is not in the Bible.
In fact, Pslam 139:13 says For you created my inmost being; / you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
If we were God’s spirit children, living in a pre-existence with him before our time on earth, he wouldn’t have have to create us or “knit us together” in our mother’s womb. He would have just placed us there.
Kate, I praise God every time I hear a Mormon’s testimony of how they
turned to the true Savior , instead of giving up on God altogether , once they
found out they were misled by a false prophet. My wife was a faithful Jehovah’s
Witness, she submitted to God’s prophet who alone was the mouthpiece of God
on earth. She went door to door with the news of Jehovah’s theocratic organization
as the only safe place to be in order to escape God’s wrath. She could have given
up on God when she discovered that her prophet was not a reliable channel of
spiritual truth, but she started reading the Bible alone for herself. Eventually
some friends gave her the address of a ministry just like one, only geared towards
Jw’s . Long story short, she asked Jesus into her life. We met shortly thereafter.
That was 28 years ago. I feel for the Mormon people . They are striving to follow
God, but these decent people have been detoured by accepting a man, a prophet,
as a guide to direct them into spiritual truth. They are promised that to gain God’s
favor requires a submission to this man’s counsel. May the Mormon people open
their Bible and test their prophet / apostles teachings .Acts. 17:11 ; 1Jn.4:1
May they find the time to do so.
Going to the source. Over 30 years ago after reading about Mormonism
in some books by Christian authors, I met this young Mormon woman.
She visited our ranch and bought a horse . I attempting to witness to her
there was some disagreement from her on what I was saying about Mormon
belief, so I proceeded to order through her some books by Mormon authors.
I wanted to get a full scope of what Mormon leaders teach. I obtained: the
three Mormon scriptures, the Journal of Discourses , Doctrines of Salvation ,
Gospel Doctrine, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Mormon Doctrine. I also
over the next 5 years talked to at least a dozen Mormon Missionaries . I also
corresponded with Apostle LeGrand Richards. I came to see the difference in
what these ” modern-day” prophets taught compared to what the Bible taught
on important issues such as God and how a person is made right with Him etc.
I think that I went to the source to find out about Mormonism. In the years that
followed I came to appreciate why Jesus took the time to issue a warning about
false prophets, it is because good decent people can be misled by men who
really feel that they have been picked by God to be His spokesmen . Failing to
heed Jesus’ warning can result in embracing spiritual counterfeits. See how
Jesus’ apostles took this message from their Master and relayed it to others
in the New Testament.
Andy, I can honestly say I made it through four years at BYU and earned my degree there without taking one class on the Bible. They required that I take religion courses every semester, however, the only specified that I was required to take the BofM for at least one semester. My experience was that the Bible was used very little if at all in any of their sermons. I didn’t even know that The Pearl of Great Price and the D&C were even considered mormon scripture, until my sister, who at the time was trying to convince me that the mormon chruch wasn’t a mainstream Chirstian fundemental chruch (mind you I didn’t beleive it was the true chruch at this point and had been out
of it for over twenty years at this point, but you still couldn’t tell me the mormons were Christians. Interestingly enough, I grew up in a Jewish home, however since I have become a Christian and have always attended a good bible teaching non demoninational church, I have learned more about Judaism, morminism and the Bible than I ever learned in all my years a Jew or a mormon. I can only speak for myself as to why I chose to remain so ignorant. I decided pretty much from the beginning that my association with morminism that I was never going to be good enough to make it to the celestial kingdom and the telestial or terrestial kingdoms would be ok by me. I knew the
of the doctrines of becoming gods, I knew about baptism for the dead, I knew that blacks could not hold the preisthood, but I chose not to look at these things, but just to ignore these doctrines as if they didn’t exist. There is no encouragement to be a Brean, those who searched the scriptures daily and were encouraged to do so to test and see if what Paul was teaching was true. If there were there is no way you could be a member of the mormon church, search the BofM, which by the way Joseph Smith called “the most correct book on the earth.” and see that none of their major doctrines are even in that book and than still beleive in the religion. It is so much easier just to follow what the prophet says and take him at his word. Never are you challegnged to even search their scriptures to see if what the propeht teaches is true and certainly not the Bible. But than thats what it comes down to with mormons, it is beleiveing the prophet and believing the religion. It has nothing to do with believing Jesus.
I recently saw a video put together to entice teenage kids to attend the youth conference here. They had famous (I’d never heard of them though) mormon singers, bands, speakers, etc coming. And then it panned around the arena… hundreds of kids were goofing off in the stadium, all excited about their conference. And my heart sunk. So many kids. And this is in a low-mormon populated area! I can’t imagine what it must be like out west. And how much you want to bet these kids won’t be taught any of the aforementioned doctrines? Anyone else want to join with me in praying Jesus intervenes and calls these kids to Him? It really hit me hard.
mam,
A lot of things bug me about cults but the dishonest way they suck folks in is at the top of the list. In your example above the Mormons are using the bait of a shiny object to lure unsuspecting kids into the Mormon trap. Cults have a way of justifying and rationalizing their unethical and devious behavior.
Here’s something to keep in mind however. What is the retention rate for Mormon converts? I know we’d all say that one is too many but we’re looking at a religion with a two-thirds inactive membership.
Andy Watson made his way to a Mormon function a couple of years ago held on a Saturday at a Mormon ward in his area. The gym was set-up with displays with all of the positive features of the Mormon church. Nothing was displayed however that would give anyone an inkling that this wasn’t just another Christian denomination. Well Andy went from display to display asking questions and pretty soon the missionaries were called over and then the bishop was brought in. All-in-all it was quite a scene and it was evident that the whole process was one of “duck-and-cover” for the Mormons.
As Christians we look to that Bible verse that says,
“I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”
Mormonism needs to hide their gospel. They have a lame excuse that they do this because the spiritually immature can’t understand it. What a built in alibi for lies and deceit. It’s called seduction, bait-and-switch, or setting up the mark; take your pick.
If a religion can’t boldly proclaim their most fundamental doctrine, what good are they?
George Orwell, in his book “1984” gave a description of something he called double think. Double think is holding two contradictory thoughts in your mind at the same time and believing that they are both true.
Here is what Joseph Smith says in the BoM.
“I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18).
“For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles” (Mormon 9:9-10).
It’s obvious that at first Smith had an orthodox understanding of God’s nature. At some point in his theological odyssey, Smith entered into the mind set of doublethink.
Smith proclaimed that the BoM was inspired and true and yet proclaimed that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another” (King Follett Discourse).
Joseph Smith the master and inventor of the double (Mormon) think.
I’ve often said that in order to understand Mormonism and the mind-set of the Mormon believer, you have to be able to think Mormon. Thinking Mormon is being able to do “double think”. That is holding two contradictory thoughts in your mind and believing they’re both true. This is the essence of Mormon faith and actually progressive revelation. The basis for all of this is the Mormon “burning in the bosom”, a concept borrowed from evangelical Christian revivalism of the 19th century.
The Mormon “burning in the bosom” however has a special twist. In the Mormon version, once a person gets an emotional reaction to the BoM, it serves as a testimony that the BoM is true and also that everything that comes out of the LDS church is true.
So harkening back to all the flips and flops and switch-o-change-o of Mormon history and doctrine and and the BoM itself, contradictory beliefs and doctrines makes no difference. The BITB covers all of that. It can be contradictory and even sound like theological and doctrinal double think. It’s all true. It has to be. The BITB confirms it all. Let’s face it. A person would have to have some sort of psychological “trick” in order to suspend credulity and embrace what’s come out of LDS Inc. from it’s inception.
Falcon, its funny you should mention the concept of double think with mormons, as HIS Ministries talks about this on their newsletter this month. I would link the newsletter here, but I dont know how to do that and you pretty much covered what they did. Rauni & Dennis Higly(sp?) founded this ministry and were both staunch mormons for many years. In fact Rauni was a translator for the LDS chruch and I beleive it was in her capacity of that position that she started to have the truely unsavory history of the mormon church revealed to her. Any personally for me, it was more like non think as opposed to double think. I never was exposed to the temple and I think that where ther more far out doctrines take front and center stage, from the thinkgs I have read, I think that was why I was able to last six years in the releigion. Kate, did you have any experiece with the temple and did that affect your leving the church?
So true, falcon, about the retention rate. It just upset me. The bands were all very similar to what the Christian music world has done… R&B artists, classical pianists, comedians, etc. The kids were all doing “the wave” around the arena, all hyped up about it. However, had they done ANY of that behavior in the actual church setting? They would’ve had a meeting with the bishop in 2 seconds.
A friend of mine’s husband teaches seminary at a school in Utah (*cough*paidministry*cough*), and even though they have plenty of kids in there, 70% of the teens are considered less active or inactive. I often wonder why? Is it because they just don’t buy into it? Do they not want to live the legalistic lifestyle? Who knows. I just happen to have a relative at one of the youth conferences right now, and my father-in-law helped cordinate it. He was all excited to show us the video, yet had a Christian church put it together? It would’ve been deemed “irreverant”.
I do wonder if the temple kinda seals the deal for some who are questioning. My husband said it was weird and sorta creepy. And he’s been lds his whole life. Makes me wonder what the converts think when they get in there, and if it has a negative effect? I have some lds friends though who are ALL ABOUT going to the temple and buy into every little bit of it. They even make a point to visit every temple they’re near when they’re vacationing. I guess they might as well get to enjoy it while they’re around… considering they helped pay for them.
The Apostle Paul in the epistles of 1 Tim, and Titus counsels his readers to
be careful about what they receive as spiritual truth from others. In the
Bible (KJV) it says , “sound ” doctrine in 1 Tim and Titus. I like that word.
Being ranch raised I learned this word from my Grandfather when he
referred to a horse being healthy . If a horse was not ” sound ” that meant
it was lame, not healthy . This thread concerns a teaching by Mormon
leaders that is not “sound” doctrine. But can sincere men teach inaccurately ?
Can these men , who claim to be authoritative teachers, advance the “precepts
of men” yet claim it is really Godly counsel on spiritual truth ? Mormon
leaders have stated that they are acting as protection for their followers
warning them of false teachings. The Mormon people need to ask themselves
about this doctrine . Do the scriptures teach this doctrine of Mormons who
are worthy becoming Gods and Goddesses and producing children on other
worlds/planets ? The mandate seems clear, we can embrace the Bible as
trustworthy concerning our future state. We cannot trust Mormon prophets
and apostles to be reliable guides on spiritual truths in some very important
areas . Mormons can dismiss these men from their lives and not offend God.
Here’s the tragedy. Mormons aren’t losing anything spiritually by walking away from the false belief system of Mormonism. If fact they are gaining everything. The apostle Paul writes that everything that he had thought he had gained in his former religious life he could count as “garbage” in contrast to what he had gained in Christ.
Jesus came that we might have spiritual life in abundance. This spiritual life is based on a relationship with Him forged in personal faith in His finished work on the cross. Putting on costumes, going to a “temple” and performing religious rituals borrowed from a secular organization no less, will not gain anyone anything spiritually. In fact, it will detract and take a person away from Jesus rather than draw them closer.
What happens is that Mormons begin to believe that they can change themselves into gods by performing useless routines and works that have no spiritual power. These things may appear to Mormons to have power because of the Mormons’ good intentions. Because our spiritual condition is hopeless, God provided a means by which we can be transformed not into “gods”, but people who have been purified by Him that we may enter His presence.
Mormonism does not exist in the Bible. In fact Mormonism doesn’t even exist in the BoM. Mormonism was formed in the mind of a degenerate sinner and as a result it glorifies man and his “potential”.
Mormons may as well join a self-help group that has rituals attached to it for all the good it would do in attaining eternal life.
Always glad to bring a chuckle to a Evangelical, Andy Watson 🙂
Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
1). Heirs of God fellow heir with Christ
2). Glorified with him.
Nice that you skipped over these important points.
Heir is a person who is entitled to receive a share of property. Joint heir is what?
“A joint-heir is one who inherits equally with all other heirs including the Chief Heir who is the Son. Each joint-heir has an equal and an undivided portion of the whole of everything. If one knows all things, so do all others. If one has all power, so do all those who inherit jointly with him. If the universe belongs to one, so it does equally to the total of all upon whom the joint inheritances are bestowed” ( Mormon Doctrine, 395).
Doctrine and Covenants 84:33–40
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the delect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that areceiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
Falcon, lets see how this really plays out. From eternity to all eternity, Joseph Smith about God not changing.
Joseph Smith taught, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and take away the veil so that you may see.
Was he talking about a physical state? Jesus is referred to as “the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). The scriptures state that Jesus “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”(Luke 2:52)
Jesus stated, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth.” (Matthew 28:18)
What, Jesus did not always have this power? If it was given, does this not mean He did not have yet all power?
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. Is this a contradiction? is he talking about Himself or His doctrine.
Malachi 3:4-6
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”
Here He is pointing out that His promises and covenants never change. Falcon you incorrectly translate JS’s discourse with physical change and not the true meaning of His not changing in the nature of who He is. Nice try.
When I see a Mormon quoting Scripture I do a big HO-HUM because I know a couple of things about Mormons and the Bible. First of all Mormons don’t trust the Bible, seeing it as flawed. Mormons enter the weird and wacky world of conspiracy buffs by charging that Mormonism was left out of the Bible and that after the death of the apostles, the true Gospel was lost. Secondly, Mormons don’t use any fundamental principles of correct Biblical exegesis to come to their conclusions. It’s all just blue sky, free flow, unattached stream of consciousness and the mind of spiritually unregenerated people in search of a cogent thought. When Mormons start quoting the Bible it’s like amateur night down at the Wards.
I don’t know why Mormons even attempt to quote the Bible. Why not just say that the Mormon god revealed thus and such to you and leave it at that. It has about as much reliability.
In addition to being totally clueless about how to interpret the Bible, Mormons are ignorant beyond measure regarding Church history. Fed a steady diet of misinformation and false information, Mormons go gleefully on their way supposing that some random thoughts by someone claiming to be a prophet of God will bring them the knowledge that they need to sustain a spiritual life.
Reading the Bible through the lenses of a cult provides a kaleidoscope of wondrous color, but no clear vision of what the Word of God teaches.
Jesus said that when the Spirit of truth came, He would lead believers into all truth. It’s easy to tell what spirit Mormons and other cultists are being led by as they deny God and reject His plan for salvation.
The Bible clearly teaches that there is One God. He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He doesn’t take kindly to folks creating gods to place before Him. He’s also not fond of men or angels who suppose they will ascend to a throne, don a robe and a crown, and rule their own planets with a scepter in hand.
God is all holy, all merciful and all loving. We are separated from Him because of our sin. God reconciled us to Himself while we were yet sinners in order to demonstrate his compassion and benevolence. False prophets with their false gods have come and gone over the centuries but God remains. His plan of salvation included a demonstration of that love. The Bible says, “For God so loved the world so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
Only God can set the provisions by which men will be saved. Jesus came as the unblemished Lamb who willingly and freely give His life for all who believe.
Well stated indeed, Falcon!
Falcon, it would be really helpful if you could also include in your comments your understanding of where/how Mormons have gone wrong in quoting the Bible on this thread. This would add substantially to the conversation…
Helen, you stated that Andy ” skipped over these important points ” , in his
comments on Rom.8:14-17 and the term “heir”. Actually Andy correctly
said that to become a child, an heir, is through adoption , and he referenced
verses 14-17 where anyone could see this fact. I think that this is the most
important question here, namely, becoming an son/daughter of God, and
in addressing this question I think it is you who has skipped over some
important points. You referenced one of your Mormon leaders (McConkie)
and his teaching on the term “heir”. What do the Mormon leaders teach is
necessary to become an heir, son / daughter? We know what Rom. 8 teaches
on this, but that is from dead apostles is’nt it ? What have the “modern day ”
prophets/ apostles taught ? Joseph Fielding Smith asks the question of ” Now
how are we going to become the sons of God and of course, daughters as well ?
How is it done ” ? Can we become the sons and heirs of our eternal Father simply
by being baptized for the remission of our sins after we have repented and have
had faith, and have hands laid upon us for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and have
come into the church ? NO , IT TAKES MORE THAN THAT …..” He goes on to
teach that LDS must ” accept in our hearts EVERY principle of the gospel which
has been revealed… .” He then stated that one is required to go thru the Temple
also. [ Doct. of Sal. vol.2 p. 39-40 ] . Wow what a list ! Let’s take a closer look:
cont.
Comparing the Mormon gospel and it’s “requirements ” necessary to become
a son/ daughter of God, an heir, with the Bible , we see the difference in
what the original Apostles of Jesus taught compared to what the “modern -day”
Apostles of Mormonism have claimed to have “revealed ” from God Himself.
A short list of “gospel principles” from Mormon leaders , needed to be obeyed:
Don’t marry a Negro . Polygamy. The Law of Adoption ( “the means of salvation”
according to B.Y. ) . Temple Endowments ( accompanied by promising not to
divulge your sacred/secret name ,tokens , etc, mimicking how the “penalty”
of failing such promise — having your throat slit ) . Re-Baptism was once
“required” for an initate”s first experience in the Temple prior to endowments.
Temple patrons once bathed in water and whiskey. For men, no sex with your
wife for 10 days prior your endowments( spiritual truth from the prophet
B.Y. ) Women required to get their husbands permission to attend Endowment
ceremony, whereas men no such requirement . This truth was dumped in the
1980’s . All this is but a real small sample of the spiritual guidance from Mormon
leaders. The claim: the Living prophet is our source for pure doctrine [Ensign Nov
1998, p. 82,83] Wally Tope has rightly concluded, ” Fortunately, no one has to
be processed through this highly legalistic system to become a son of God. We’re
adopted into God’s family simply by receiving Jesus ( Jn1:12) . The God of the Bible
is not wishy-washy , changing the requirements for sonship …” Christians, being
in the New Testament Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, take His instructions thru
His Apostles, to heart on how to become a child of God: Rom 8