Mormons look forward to an eternity–a Heaven–characterized as a sort of divine extension of their lives on earth. Calling mortal marriage “a laboratory for godhood,” the LDS Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual states,
“In the relationship of husband and wife and parent and child we begin to approach the divine calling of godhood. Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.” (page 1; “laboratory for godhood” quote can be found on page 65.)
With such a “noble goal” in mind (page 1), Mormons envision Heaven as a very busy place of raising children and creating worlds. Latter-day Saints have no trouble recognizing that Mormonism’s concept of Heaven is very different from the Christian concept; but Mormons seem to only know a cartoon representation of the Christian Heaven–and delight to make fun of it. Consider a few statements from Mormons who have posted comments here at Mormon Coffee over the years:
“Aaron, what is your take on daily eternal fun or activities, of course you could come watch us LDS create stuff,… in fact [in the Christian Heaven] there would be no progression except deciding what cloud you would pick for that particular time and space. Interesting concept, nothing to do but sit, sing and praise…I would hard[ly] say that either I or [another LDS commenter] think being with God will be boring, but picking out clouds, remembering to bring you harp, and not forgetting the many verses you will be singing for time and eternity, hmmm, you say fun, I say boring.”
“If all you plan to do in heaven is worship God, won’t you get tired of that at some point? You must really like harp music to accept that particular role for eternity.”
“Evangelical doctrine, as I have come to understand it, does not teach anything beyond Grace, Heaven, and Hell. His grace and purpose means to bring about much more than what evangelical doctrine suggests, which so far I have learned that we float around on clouds after this life and just sing praises to God. To me, that’s bubble-gum.”
Biblically speaking, we don’t know a lot of details regarding the believers’ eternity in Heaven, but we do know this:
“The heavenly future all believers anticipate is the fulfillment of God’s purpose in creating the universe. It will include worship of the type revealed in the Book of Revelation (7:10; 11:16-18; 15:2-4). Worship will involve rehearsing God’s glorious acts (19:1-2). In addition to ascription of worth, worship will involve service – unspecified works done in obedience to God and for God (22:6)…In contrast to present suffering, God promises believers that they will reign with Christ in heavenly glory (2 Tim. 2:12; see Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4, 6). In heaven, believers will have fellowship with God and with each other in a perfect environment (Heb. 12:22-23).” (Bradford A. Mullen, “Heaven, Heavens, Heavenlies,” Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology)
The biblical depiction of Heaven is inadequate in Mormon circles. For whatever reason, Mormons seem to think the eternal worship and praise of God in song equates with boredom and bubble-gum. Isn’t this surprising in light of the Latter-day Saints’ own scripture, Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon?
“And he [Jesus] have brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.” (Mormon 7:7)
Nevertheless, latter-day revelation of Mormon prophets teaches that Heaven, to be Heaven, must include a continuation of the family unit, the achievement of godhood, and the creation of worlds; sort of a “be all that you can be” mindset. As a Christian, my eternal focus is not on me, but on God. Even if Heaven was nothing but singing ceaseless praise to Him, that would be more than enough for me.
Heaven boring ? This caricature of our view of heaven that some Mormons hold reminds
me of when I heard a Muslim apologist say the same thing. He looked forward to being with
the 70 virgins that he believed was promised him by Muslim doctrine, our view of heaven
he said would be boring. Since my focus is on Jesus and what He did for me in order that I
could live forever in God’s presence , my desire of being with family and such , worshiping
and glorifying God forever , is so humbling . Exhilarating yes, boring never . But I guess this
might be boring to many Mormons when you consider that becoming an Almighty God and being
worshiped as such is their goal . Mormon women are not so fortunate as the prospect of sharing
their husband with other women and being eternally pregnant is what probably awaits them .
This scenario is not lost on many Mormon women. Former Mormon Agusta Harting comments:
” One of my dearest Mormon friends confided in me that she wished that she would not merit
the highest heaven , because she did not want to be eternally pregnant , the goddess wife of a
polygamist god. ” I suppose with the shift in recent years of Mormonism trying hard to appear
as just another Christian denomination that this Mormon doctrine is routinely denied by many
Mormons now, but I’m sure that behind the scenes it is still probably embraced by many .
I have had similar encounters with LDS. The view of heaven they assume for creedal Christians seems more taken from “The Family Circus” than from the Bible. This is one of the reasons why when they play the “families are forever” card, I am so unimpressed. Well, of course they are! I may or may not be married in the new creation (an interesting topic), but relationships will no doubt be richer than here: unencumbered by sin, with an eternity to know each other as members of the family of God as well as to come to know fully God himself.
Many theologians have worked out the nature of heavenly life more completely than just “we’ll worship God, and we’ll like it.” We’ll reign; over what? We’ll be part of a new heavens and a new earth; which will contain what? We’ll be rewarded; with what? One of the more accessible authors who wrote extensively on this is C.S. Lewis, who between the “Chronicles of Narnia” and “The Great Divorce” had a rich imagination about what eternal life might look like. Not that the missionaries have time for reading, but I recommend him to them (and as an added bonus, their recently departed mission president was a big CS Lewis fan, so Lewis has quasi-official approval). LDS missionaries especially are usually resistant to any sort of rationale argument from Scripture or history, but I’m hoping that giving them some idea of the richness I’ve experienced (and will experience eternally) will at least make creedal Christianity a live option when they become disillusioned with Mormonism.
Mike,
What is interesting to me about LDS Mormons is that they publicly denounce polygamy and their later prophets have even called it an abomination to God. So it is more than a little twisted in my mind that they are striving to become a god of their own world and procreate with polygamous wives for eternity. I can understand the FLDS believing this but the LDS? I have heard the cloud theory about Christians all my life, but I never believed this is what Christianity teaches. Mormons believe a lot of things about Christianity that is regurgitated at church or passed around in Mormon conversations. The average Mormon is ignorant of Christian doctrines. I know I was. Mormonism is so far removed from the teachings of Jesus and his true Apostles. Women are so short changed in Mormonism. The sad thing is, they are constantly being told that they are equal to men because God gave them the gift of procreation. They can grow babies. He had to give men something so he gave them the Mormon priesthood and made them the head of the household. Women believe this stuff too. How lucky is a Mormon woman? She gets to birth babies for eternity and serve her husband/god while she does it! Don’t get me wrong, I love my kids and it has been a wonderful experience, but eternity is a very long time and I don’t know if my nerves could handle it! I believe God has something more in mind for me. 🙂
Kate, you’re right God does have something more in mind for you ( and all of us ) . Something
far more greater and special than what we experience here. I think 1Cor.2:9 touches on this.
I agree that Mormon women are short-changed. To watch her husband being worshiped and
participating in communication with His sons and daughters , who are on an earth ,while she is
kept from these activities , is’nt any type of “family values” a Mormon woman should want to
look forward to I would think. The real Heaven offers a different and better life for all
concerned.
Tommeltj, I agree with you that some Mormons have been fed a silly caricature of what we
believe about future life in heaven for believers in Jesus .
As Christians, we have been forgiven. We have been adopted into God’s family. We have eternal life. For these reasons and many more, we are in awe of God’s love for us. When we think of Heaven, we think of God. Heaven shall be a continuation of the most important thing in the Christian’s life: one’s personal relationship with God.
Have the LDS people been forgiven? Do they have every spiritual blessing by virtue of their union with Jesus Christ? Bestowed by a gracious and loving God? Do they speak of wanting to live with the LDS god? Of their awe, wanting to praise and worship it? Of course not. What they have is the “restored gospel;” a code of laws. Whenever they receive a blessing, it is by keeping its corresponding law. Blessings come from oneself. What is their hope of heaven? Oneself. When they speak of heaven, they speak of being with their families; themselves. Heaven is merited by them. So it is also all about them.
Lets just say for the sake of the argument that Heaven is in fact boring. I would rather be in Heaven Bored to tears, than to be tormented in Hell for all of eternity.
I seriously doubt heaven will be boring. We might not be given all the detail of what we will do, but if this earth we live on is a pretty nice place, and a dump at the same time, and God created it in 7 days, just imagine what Heaven will be like since God has been working on it for 2,000 years right now as we await the return of Jesus and going to be with Him.
Great article Sharon!
As a believing mormon I agree our idea of heaven is very different from the mainstream christian belief. I have personally never dwelt on the idea of becoming a god and gaining worship. To me being with God is good enough for me, I’ll do whatever he wants once I’m there. If thats sitting at his feet for all eternity I’ll do it gladly. If it’s running my own planet with a million pregnant wives then I’ll do that to (though spending eternity with that many pregnant women didn’t sound like “heaven” to me, I had a hard enough time with one! 😉 ).
I have a question that I hope isn’t to off topic. I’ve heard the idea of “Celestial Sex” but have never seen it taught in LDS doctrine. In fact when I have asked about how spirits are made I have always heard that nobody knows and we’ll find out when we get there. Is there some LDS teaching I’ve been missing that points to “god sex”?
The biggest problem with the Mormon religion is they are man exalting, not God exalting. God is worthy of all praise. God knows we will never be completely satisfied in anything apart from a relationship with Him, which is why He commands worship.
The Bible tells us why Heaven will never be boring in Ephesians 2:5-7:
by grace you have been saved–and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ***so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ***
Verse 7 is the key. We are saved SO THAT in the coming ages (Heaven) we will experience the IMMEASURABLE riches of God’s grace. God’s goodness and glory and holiness cannot be measured, meaning it will take an immeasurable amount of time to experience them. Everyday in Heaven we will see the goodness of God better. That is why Heaven will not get boring!
Here is a question I ask Mormons to show where their heart is: “From John Piper:
The critical question for our generation—and for every generation—
is this: If you could have heaven, with no sickness, and with all the
friends you ever had on earth, (AND your entire family–my words) and all the food you ever liked, and all the leisure activities you ever enjoyed, and all the natural beauties
you ever saw, all the physical pleasures you ever tasted, and no
human conflict or any natural disasters, could you be satisfied with
heaven, if Christ were not there?”
TJayT,
Welcome to Mormon Coffee. You’re a little different in attitude and perspective from the Mormons who usually show-up here.
“Celestial Sex”, now there’s an interesting topic. Let’s look at it this way, why do you think Joseph Smith came up with the idea? He had a bunch of wives and seems to have been practicing here on earth. I get the feeling that Mormons, with mother god and father god, are seeing parallels between earthly and heavenly life.
Mormon gods will be quite busy with some form of spiritual procreation and then I suppose there are duties associated with managing a huge brood of spirit children, answering the prayers of planet level offspring, messing with the weather and I suppose having board meetings with the other gods; the up-line superior gods as well as the down-line gods who are your direct god descendants.
Here’s my question, where did Joseph Smith’s ideas about the Celestial Kingdom, polygamy, eternal progression and spirit beings having some form of sex come from? And just think, the path that a person takes to accepting this type of theory starts when they pray about and feel that they have been given confirmation regarding the truthfulness and accuracy of the BoM.
Who’d have thought that Joseph Smith would start with writing the BoM expressing one idea concerning the nature of God and then do a major correction and come up with another god and so many other intriguing ideas.
Doesn’t it make you wonder if it’s true or not? That maybe the God he started with is “God” and his later versions merely the mental meanderings of a religious experimenter.
This is what I think. There is One, eternal, everlasting never changing God. There aren’t any more gods but thinking there are puts someone in eternal jeopardy.
Wonderful post, Kyly021.
Hi, TJayT. It’s good to have you here.
TjayT , did you read the quotes from Mormon Church curriculum that Sharon cited ?
It briefly addressed the issue you asked about ( there are more references ) concerning
“Celestial sex / ” God sex ” . I might ask you how important is this doctrine to you ? I
get the impression that even if this doctrine was indeed promulgated by Mormon prophets
and apostles , you are going to say ” so what ” etc. Is this correct ? If they did in fact teach
this would it be false doctrine ? Will you entertain the thought that maybe they are false
teachers ? If you can answer yes to these last two questions then perhaps we can look at
any evidence for this teaching. Are you ok with this ? Lastly, just because you have’nt dwealt
on the prospect of being worshiped one day as an Almighty God does’nt mean that Mormon
leaders have’nt taught on this , and that is the whole point . I hope you can understand this .
Thanks .
TJayT,
As far as ‘celestial sex’ goes, there is no official standing on it. We are taught that our spirits in the pre-mortal life had gender, which we have now as a physical being and will have after this life. Gender is a very important part of who and what we are. We are also taught that we will be resurrected exactly as we are, except without blood or imperfections – meaning that all of our organs will be in place and functional. An example of this was Jesus, once resurrected, was able to eat, meaning that He still had a digestive tract. Now whether or not we will need to eat as opposed to being able to is a different question, but when it comes to sex, we will still be capable of it. BY once taught that intimate relations between husband and wife are there not only for procreation but to bring out the better qualities of human emotions. Since we believe that we will still be married in the eternities we will be able to carry on with our marriage relations. This is in opposition to Traditional Christianity where they will still be able to interact with their loved ones, but not in that manner.
As to how spirit children are brought about, we don’t know. But a physical being having a spirit child does not make sense to me. And to have a few billion to populate a world in the same manner as children are born here does not make sense to me. So I think there is a different process.
So in my opinion, sex in the eternities is for husband and wife to enjoy each other without any complications like pregnancy or disease.
Ralph, your post is a good example of why we need to set our sights a little higher in
authority than your opinion when we seek to evaluate this doctrine of ” celestial sex ” .
Your question, ” As to how spirit children are brought about, we don’t know. ” I wonder
who you mean by “we” here ? The answer to your question seems simple enough : it takes
an exalted man and an exalted woman ; according to the doctrinal offerings of several of your
leadership . Mormons for generations have embraced this doctrine . The fact that it might be
given less emphasis in recent years because of the trend by Mormons to advertise themselves
as being another Christian denomination , does’nt negate the fact that it was taught as being
doctrinally sound by Mormon leadership , and they are accountable if you deem it false
doctrine.
And where does this concept of Celestial Sex come from? Anyone want to venture a guess? Is it in the Bible? Is it in the BoM? At what point in the development of Mormonism did this beauty make its appearance?
For the enterprising Mormon, he/she may want to investigate Joseph Smith’s sexual dalliances with the women he labeled as “wives”. Since Smith was committing adultery and fornication here on earth, I guess we can conclude that he’s carrying on in the same manner in the Celestial Kingdom.
The one problem, however, is that there is no Celestial Kingdom and no Celestial Sex so the only pleasure Smith derived from his sexual exploits occurred here on earth. Smith was a clever man supported by the men close to him who were more than willing after a little coaxing, to jump into bed………. ahhhhhhhhhh, go along with what Smith was promoting.
Mormonism is indeed a strange religion with a strange past but for those who are mesmerized by Smith’s story, even fornication and adultery can be justified and hoped for in the land of Oz known as the Celestial Kingdom.
So Ralph,
If you and other mormons believe we will be married and have sex in heaven, how do you handle the fact that Jesus said we will not be married in heaven, and we will be like the angels?
Let me preface this by saying I have no intention to thread jack here. If anyone feels I am please say and I’ll find a way to move the conversation elsewhere (e-mail perhaps). I only brought it up because Kate talked about women having “to birth babies for eternity and serve her husband/god while she does it!” and it got me thinking.
Falcon; I hope having a different attitude is a good thing. If so then thank you. J
Your question is almost my question. Did Joseph Smith, or any other LDS authority teach about resurrected beings having some form of sex? I’ve never personally been taught that sex has to or will be involved in making spirit beings. And as far as I understand spirit beings wouldn’t be having sex. If it where to happen then it would be after the Resurrection, so there would be bodies involved.
To be truthful I’ve never prayed about the BoM being true. I have prayed about other things (Is there really a god, did Jesus really die on the cross for my sins etc) but I never felt the need to pray about the BoM.
I have wondered about the changes in the BoM. From what I have heard most of the changes to the BoM where the taking out of a million “And it came to pasts” lines, the changing of King Benjamin translating the Jaradite plates to King Mosiah and a couple of spots where it sounded like a Trinitarian doctrine was being taught. All of these have been covered a million times before and if people want to talk about them I’ll be glad to do it off thread (I’ve already hijacked it enough J)
Thank you very much for sharing your opinion with me. I enjoy a good civil discussion.
Brian; thanks, good to be here.
Mike R; Are you referring to the first quote in the Article? If so I don’t see where it refers to procreation. I haven’t read the [Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual
]. Never even heard of it. I can’t find any free copies online and don’t feel like buying one, so I doubt I’ll be reading it anytime soon. If you’re referring to some other quotes that I missed then can you please point me toward them? I can’t answer your question intelligently until have am sure I have read the sources.
Ralph; That’s what I’ve always been taught, but I wasn’t sure if at some point in the past the church has taken a stand on it. As I said earlier I agree that it sounds strange for two physical beings to make a spirit by some form of procreation as we know it. But I’m not a spokesman for the church and was looking to see if any general authorities have spoken on it.
TjayT , thanks for the reply. I’m sure you’ll agree that our time is important . It can get old
at times when a Mormon might question a doctrine that I have claimed is , or was,
taught by Mormon authorities. Then when the proof of such is cited the Mormon will simply
say , “so what” or something similar . So if you can admit that if this issue ( of women giving
birth to babies in heaven for eternity , as per Kate ) is false doctrine then we can look and see
if Mormon authorities have taught this . If you don’t feel this would be considered false
doctrine then I’m probably not going to spend my time in looking up some info on this issue.
Please let me know how you feel about this. Thanks.
Randy Alcorn has a really interesting book entitled “Heaven” that is definitely worth the read. Might help to dispel some of those misconceptions about harps and clouds. Although, having said that, the Bible is the best place to go to dispel those misconceptions.
http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Randy-Alcorn/dp/0842379428/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319794960&sr=1-1
Actually this topic of Celestial Sex is pertinent to our discussion here and one I could see Mormons wanting to avoid like the plague. It gets to the character of Joseph Smith and exploring what he was up to with the Mormon sisters will knock some/all of the polish off of the shinny image Mormon authorities have cultivated regarding Smith. What Smith was up to with his plural wifery was not sacred and holy. If a Mormon is open to seek the information regarding this practice, they will be disgusted not inspired.
Mormons will say, “The restored gospel is SO much more than that.”, when referring to topics like Celestial Sex. The “restored gospel” has several facets but becoming a god is the foundational doctrine. Coming off that hub, like spokes on a wheel, are things such as Celestial marriage, forever families, spirit procreation and planetary rule over a personal solar system.
Contrast that with the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented in the NT. Here it is; mankind is separated by sin from a Holy God. We cannot enter God’s presence because of our sin. God in His love, mercy and benevolence became a man and provided the perfect sacrifice for sin. Men are declared holy and righteous and able to enter God’s presence through faith in Jesus and the finished work He performed on the Cross.
This is what the Bible teaches. Joseph Smith created his own religion with his own god and his own gospel which included men becoming gods just like, it’s said, the millions of other gods. To flesh this out, Smith and those who followed him embellished the tale and mixed in rituals borrowed from the Free Masons to formalize Smith’s religion.
MikeR, thanks for the clarification. After thinking about it I decided if it is true then it wouldn’t really mater in the long run. Not because I’m willing to accept everything on blind faith or unwilling to admit the LDS church has been wrong, but because in the end it’s really a non-issue. Better to focus up a step and prove celestial marriage or exaltation a false doctirin. That would be a much stronger argument and take care of two birds with one stone. And now for something more on thread topic…
I actually dont think the traditional
christian heaven would be boring for the
same reason hell would be so awful. While
I’m sure the fire and demon torture are
horrible beyond all imagining I think the
worst part will be the total lack of christs
light. Even the most awful people doing the most horrible things still feel God’s love because there’s still a chance for them to accept his grace and when that’s gone it’ll be unbearable. When in heaven we’ll be immersed in pure and perfect love for eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Falcon; well I promise I’m not trying to avoid the issue, just don’t want people to feel like I’m getting off from heaven.
I agree that atonement and exaltation are the peg that almost every other Lds doctirin hangs on (the idea of a living prophet and revelation may not). And I haven’t yet had a problem squaring it with my readings of TOT and TNT as well as my own logic.
I’m posting from my phone now so I can’t go to deeply into the discussion right now but I’ll be glad to when I get home.
Ralph,
“We are taught that our spirits in the pre-mortal life had gender, which we have now as a physical being and will have after this life. Gender is a very important part of who and what we are.”
This comment struck me as absurd. What about those 1 in 1000 who are born with both male and female parts? Is this what they are going to be in Heaven? Just a question.
TJayT,
Very good conversation! One thing stuck out to me though, You said: To be truthful I’ve never prayed about the BoM being true.” No Mormon I know would consider you a faithful Mormon. I’m not being rude here, I’m just trying to understand. How can you be a Mormon if you have never prayed for confirmation that the BoM is true? Do you believe it’s the Word of God? I’m really confused about this. This is the first thing in a Mormon’s testimony.
Kate, hope you don’t mind me jumping in on the question you asked Ralph but this is actually something I’ve thought about before.
From what I’ve read most hermaphrodites aren’t born with both reproductive parts fully functional. At birth the doctors pick the half that works and then do cosmetic surgery to “fix” the other half. So these people would still only have one gender there body favors. This would also explain transgender people. They feel trapped in the wrong sex because there soul is the opposite of there body. It would fall under the same idea as “being gay is a trial from god.” At least thats my idea on the mater (whatever thats worth :)).
I’ve never really cared about what other mormons think of me. I’ve always had more christian friend so mormon peer pressure never got to me.
I do you believe in the book of mormon and JS, but I’ve always approach the book from the more logical standings. God gave me a brain to use not to just pray to him about every little thing. But if I’m not a faithful mormon does that mean I’m safe to now? 😉
Kate,
It doesn’t take to many questions before the concept of the Celestial Kingdom and a father-mother god tandem procreating spirit children starts to break down. It works within the confines of Mormonism, which isn’t true, but it isn’t even on the list of top ten heresies within Christianity because it’s so far out in left field.
It’s the mental meanderings of Joseph Smith and a bunch of guys playing “let’s start a religion”. It’s like the old movies from the late 30s and 40s were Mickey Rooney would say, “Hay let’s get the kids together and put on a show. We could use Mr. Metzger’s barn. Yea, maybe we could get Count Basie and his band to play.”
Some where in the Joseph Smith religion, someone has to explain why people are born with physical or mental disabilities. We’ve discussed this before and the consensus is that the Mormon explanation is pretty (I was going to say lame but stopped myself) unsatisfactory. If mother and father god are procreating spirit children as a heavenly activity, then this particular duo has got an issue regarding genetics.
Also, I found Ralph’s conclusion that Jesus ate fish after his resurrection so He and eventually us with our resurrected bodies will have digestive systems and all of the other accompanying body parts needed for sexual reproduction slightly looney. I could come up with several different explanations as to what happened when Jesus put the fish in His mouth. I get a kick out of how Mormons can take an event like Jesus eating fish after His resurrection and use it in their own minds to confirm what they want to believe.
TJayT,
Your sentence added in a word so I can’t figure out if you’re a fan-boy of the BoM and Joseph Smith or not.
If you are thumbs-up on the BoM what exactly does that mean? You’re in favor of it because it promotes Jesus, because it provides an accurate historical account of actual events or both.
As to Joseph Smith, you think he was a prophet? I’m wondering how you conclude that. The reason I ask is because I don’t see Smith as a flawed but anointed and called representative of God. In fact if he qualifies we’d have to add on all of the other “prophets” who were on the scene at the same time.
As to our topic of heaven and specifically Mormon heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, would it surprise you that there was an author, seer and revelator who wrote extensively about this during the same era as Smith? Given Smith’s propensity for “borrowing” ideas from other sources, it seems likely he lifted this idea from someone else.
TjayT , while I’m not disappointed in your choice not to pursue this particular doctrine
( exalted husbands and wives sexually producing children in heaven etc ), I am rather
disappointed in your attitude concerning saying this doctrine is really a ” non-issue” .
I could not disagree more . You seem to be another of those newer type Mormons who
need to deny or down-play the doctrinal heritage of your former leaders. This behavior
has proved to be popular in recent years for those Mormons who want their Church to be
accepted as another Christian denomination etc. When I evaluate Mormonism to see if it’s
claims are true , consistent with Jesus’ gospel, I have to look into what Mormon prophets and
apostles have taught , these are the authorities , not the rank and file members who are their
followers. This is why your attempt to dismiss this doctrine is so egregious because I assure
you that to those Mormon leaders who espoused this belief it was not a , ” non-issue”.
It was taught in Church curriculum and by those men who testified that it was their
responsibility to pass down accurate spiritual truth to posterity . TjayT , you are on
dangerous ground , because your mind-set would make any false prophet seem like a true one.
Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets- Matt 7:15;24:11. His apostles followed His warning
with their ministry – 2Pt.2:1 ; Gal.1:8-9 . Can you see how serious this is ? Take the time to test
your spiritual leaders– 1 Jn.4:1 . Remember, not all false prophets are immoral, conniving
men , some can be moral individuals , so beware.
Sharon –[Nevertheless, latter-day revelation of Mormon prophets teaches that Heaven]
By using the word “Nevertheless” between what is taught in the BOM and what is taught later, you seem to be implying that the two are at odds with each other. In reality, what is taught later adds to and expands on what happens in heaven. We now have a fuller knowledge about what it will be like when we reach the other side.
fred
Sharon–[Biblically speaking, we don’t know a lot of details regarding the believers’ eternity in Heaven, but we do know this:]
As an exProtestant I have been able to compare the “Protestant heaven” to the “Mormon heaven”.
With the Grace of Jesus, we enter Heaven. That is about all that is known about the “Protestant heaven” . The “Protestant heaven” is just the beginning of what is in store for us.
In latter-day revelations, Heavenly Father has added to our knowledge as to what we will be doing in Heaven.
fred
Tommeltj –[The view of heaven they assume for creedal Christians seems more taken from “The Family Circus” than from the Bible.]
As a convert I have found this view amount SOME Latter-day Saints, but it is far from universal.
Your use of “creedal Christians’ is interesting. My studies have shown me that creeds are man made definitions that have been added to God’s word. Definitions that take away from what God taught us in the Bible.
fred
Dear Fred,
Welcome to the forum. It is nice to have you here, friend.
Brian,
Being half Hebrew I was wondering
Is Mormon Coffee kosher?
Fred said
I say, Really? Jesus said we will not be married in Heaven. Then the LDS says we will be. How can Jesus say that, then change His mind?
Also the Bible mention either Heaven or Hell, Not three different heavens and who will go their, yet the Mormon teach that. If that really is the case, why did Jesus and the apostles simply not teach that from the day Jesus walked the earth?
Lastly since you claim your part Hebrew, I am assuming you know the deal with the temples and who could enter and how they worked as far as the OT goes. Yet according to Mormonism they are so vastly different it is not funny. Example, I need to be a mormon to enter and I need a temple recommend and if I dont enter I dont stand a chance of entering the highest heaven. Really, thats all new revelation or so called further knowledge that we did not have when Jesus walked the earth. Please fill me in, I’m all ears.
Rick B –[I say, Really? Jesus said we will not be married in Heaven. Then the LDS says we will be. How can Jesus say that, then change His mind?]
Here we have an example of someone teaching something about us that is not true.
Jesus did not change His mind about marriages in Heaven. The ordinance of marriage must be done here on earth.
That is part of why we work so hard to help those who have passed beyond this life by doing marriages for the dead here on earth.
Please do not repeat that bad information about us again.
fred
Rick B –[Example, I need to be a mormon to enter and I need a temple recommend and if I dont enter I dont stand a chance of entering the highest heaven.]
Again you show a lack of knowledge of LDS teachings.
Look up the after life and how you will continue to be able to grow and progress.
I hope you are not one of those people who do not want to know the complete truth.
fred
fproy,
You can say a lot of things but please don’t tell us that rick lacks knowledge of LDS teaching.
rick is the only frequent Christian poster who has been on MC longer than I have and I can testify to his vast knowledge regarding Mormonism. I can’t tell you the number of times we have had Mormon posters show-up here insisting that rick or any of the rest of us, don’t know Mormonism.
Here’s what I find to be the problem. First of all Mormons are almost universally ignorant of the history of the LDS religion. Secondly the problem Mormons have with the Christian posters is not that we don’t understand Mormonism but rather that we don’t believe Mormonism.
We are treated, on a regular basis, to Mormons who seem to fill Mormonism up with their own meaning. Part of this is due to the fact that the Mormon prophets and apostles have been all over the ball park when it comes to the basic doctrines of the religion.
Lastly, I would just like to ask our Mormon friends, what year would you like to start Mormonism? What I mean is that nothing before a certain date seems to count. You folks don’t want to be held accountable to the crazy uncle in the attack pronouncements of your apostles and prophets and you certainly don’t want their behavior examined.
Given the progressive nature of Mormonism maybe we should just count as legitimate those things that are proclaimed on any given Sunday. We’ll then declare the following Saturday as the shelf-life expiration date.
Given the cafeteria style Mormonism that many Mormons practice and the license Mormons give themselves to accept or discard what the prophet and GAs proclaim, everything or nothing can be true. Each Mormon is free to create their own reality I guess.
CORRECTION
It’s late, I’ll write “attic” 5 times before I nod off to sleep.
Yes, while ever vigilant, the falcon must sleep.
Fred said
Bad information? Jesus said we will not be married or GIVEN in marriage in heaven. LDS claim we will be married in Heaven, Who is right, Jesus? Or the LDS? You both cannot be correct.
Rick said
Fred replied with
I have had MM’s teach me to my face, I must be a Mormon in good standing for A minimum one year before I can enter the temple, and I must have a temple recommended in order to enter. If you claim that is false, then that means we have Mormons who dont agree.
Also Mormons on this site have disagreed with one another before. Some claim as a former poster did, her favorite prophet was/is BY. Others have said, they dont care what BY taught, they dont believe Him. So who do I trust, The LDS member that favor BY, Or the one that thinks BY is wrong.?
falcon–[You can say a lot of things but please don’t tell us that rick lacks knowledge of LDS teaching.]
[Secondly the problem Mormons have with the Christian posters is not that we don’t understand Mormonism but rather that we don’t believe Mormonism.]
[You folks don’t want to be held accountable to the crazy uncle in the attack pronouncements of your apostles and prophets and you certainly don’t want their behavior examined.]
[Each Mormon is free to create their own reality I guess.]
There are two places to get knowledge of the teachings of the Church. The Church and the group of nonMormons/exMormons that teach falsehoods about the Church’s teachings. They then use these falsehoods as proof that we are wrong.
Others, believing that these false teachings are true, reteach the falsehoods.
fred
Rick B–[Bad information? Jesus said we will not be married or GIVEN in marriage in heaven. LDS claim we will be married in Heaven, Who is right, Jesus? Or the LDS? You both cannot be correct.]
We were talking about how you do not know what we teach AND YOU CHANGE THE SUBJECT to the deference in our understanding of God’s Word.
If we believed like you then there would be no need for two denominations.
BUT,
we were talking about your demonstrated lack of knowledge of what we really teach.
fred
Falcon,
Sorry about the confusion. Like I said earlier I was posting from my phone and it wasn’t working out as well as I would have liked. I’m indeed a fan of the BoM for both reasons (though there is a bit more faith put into the historical side then there is the promotion of Jesus side).
Your right that Joseph Smith wasn’t the only person running around during the second great awakening (Ellen White jumps to mind, as well as others). The reasons I feel him to be a prophet are because those other people and there religions have faded away and I feel the BoM is true. While there are questions that still need explaining there are to many things that have added up so far for me to think of them as just coincidence. And if JS was able to get a true book from using a “magic rock in a hat” then he must have been working for God.
It would surprise me to hear about others speaking about the Celestial Kingdom. I thought it was a pretty exclusive Mormon teaching. Please do tell me more.
MikeR ,
I may have chosen my words poorly. What I meant was that in the light of the two bigger doctoring (Deification and Eternal Marriage) sexual reproduction in the afterlife becomes a much smaller issue. There is much more information out there about those two topics, and since the idea of “Celestial Sex” hinges on them if you can disprove either of them then the whole house of cards falls apart. I’m very interested in learning about the subject or I wouldn’t have brought it up in the first place. But if we’re looking to prove doctrine and not just seeing what GA s have said on the issue then it’s easier to start with the big issues and then if needed work down to the issues that hang on them being correct.
I don’t feel I’m one of those Mormons that tries to play down the past. If I was then I wouldn’t be here looking for answers. I would be on Lds.org or not thinking about it at all. I’m not trying to dismiss the issue, I’m just to thinking that get to more meatier subjects that could disprove “Celestial Sex” as well would be a time saver. That’s what I meant by killing two birds with one stone in my previous post to you.
I agree that we must all be on the lookout for false prophets. But these same scriptures are used by my side every Sunday to prove why we believe there was an apostasy. Since it’s an argument that can be used by both sides I don’t normally bring them into a discussion. I do agree that if a teaching from a prophet can be proven false doctrine then it would mean the Lds church is built on faulty logic and wouldn’t be true.
TJayT said, I’m just to thinking that get to more meatier
Wow that sentence is HORRABLE. Maybe I should take Falcon’s lead and get some rest.
Thank you Susan for metioning Randy Alcorn. I haven’t read “Heaven” yet, but I ‘ve read some of his other books, and I really hope he’s close. 😉 I just think about how this creation is fallen, and still, how blue the sky is in October, how green the grass in April, how sweet the scent of the rose and peony. Just imagine, how much more vibrant these will be in a perfect heaven. Plus, I won’t be sneezing my head off every time I stop and smell the roses. 😀
Fred: “My studies have shown me that creeds are man made definitions that have been added to God’s word. Definitions that take away from what God taught us in the Bible.”
From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary
Definition of CREED
1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2: a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle
The word “creed comes from the Latin”credo” which means “I believe”.
The Apostle’s Creed:
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
I believe in the Holy Ghost:
I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
The forgiveness of sins:
The resurrection of the body:
And the life everlasting. Amen.
Can you show any “definition” here, let alone one that “that take away from what God taught us in the Bible”? And how is the statement that “I believe the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet” any different than a creed? It even starts out with “Credo” (see above). Sure, we could write and speak volumes about what we believe, and many have, but all those words are merely an expansion of what is comtained in the simple statment of the creeds. So in your own words…”Please do not repeat that bad information about us again.”
By the way…Just sos nobody gets his/her bowels in an uproar…Little “c” “catholic” means “universal” and refers to the Body of Christ, not the Roman Catholic Church.
🙂
fproy,
Here’s a mistake that Mormons make.
The information that is used in apologetic ministry to Mormons comes right out of Mormon publications past and present.
Now I suppose you could say that the information is mis-interpreted, taken out of context or in some way twisted to present Mormonism in a bad light. Here’s a couple of things for you to consider. First of all Mormons themselves seem to be confused as to the history of the Mormon religion and the ever evolving doctrinal positions of the LDS church. The Mormon leadership does little to clear-up any confusion preferring, it seems, ambiguity to clarity.
We get a lot of different points-of-view from individual Mormons regarding all matters Mormon. I’ve found ex-Mormons, especially those who post here, excellent sources of information. The reason for this is they have invested copious amounts of time sorting through the Mormon maze in order to answering compelling questions they have regarding the religion.
Forgive me, but like so many active Mormons, I think you’re naive, uninformed and in a state of denial regarding Mormonism.
You probably haven’t seen the work done here by a former Mormon who goes by the tag “grindael”. He could bury you in information directly from Mormon sources. As a dedicated student and returning missionary at BYU he had the opportunity to do research in the (BYU) archives. What he found led him out of Mormonism. It may be a good time for him to make an appearance here.
Rae,
Thanks for your excellent post on creeds. I went to bed last night thinking I’d hop on that topic this morning and there you are.
High five and fist bump with explosion. I don’t have an icon for that!
TJT,
Here you go. The mystics name was Emanuel Swedenborg. If you dig Joseph Smith and the BoM, which you have indicated you do, you’ll double dog dig this dude. The book he wrote regarding the topic of heaven, Celestial Kingdom, is “Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders”. Joseph Smith even referenced Swedenborg so we know he was familiar with his work. Here’s a Wiki link for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
As I’ve stated previously Joseph Smith was a great borrower of ideas. He’d tell people he had a revelation but what he was getting came from other sources and his own fertile imagination. Among the ideas he borrowed were that the native Americans were descendants of a lost tribe of Jews. This was a fairly common theory at the time. There was a free love group traveling about in this era of religious experimentation and he lifted that idea, and called it polygamy, from those folks. Smith religious temple rituals came from the Free Masons of which he was a member. And his “spiritual visions” came right out of the folk magic he was into as a young man. Smith was a master of second sight vision and leading people to see things in the spiritual realm. Smith mixed in enough evangelical Christian revivalism and the Bible in his religious framework to give his religion a familiar feel to those he was trying to convince of his mystical tale.
If you’re really interested I can give you all sorts of examples of folks who have had visions and revelations and mystical experiences and who have started religions or movements based on these. Here’s a good one for you to consider.
http://www.parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story
Religious mysticism and the phenomenon that accompanies it is one of my favorite subjects.
Fred, You saying a whole lot of nothing. Your saying, we are wrong, you are right but providing no evidence. Typical.
Fred said
Give some examples with great detail, not, Rick said we cannot marry in heaven and I say we can.
That is not evidence. Jesus said you do err, you will not be married in heaven or given in marriage. So please show me from the BoM where we can or will be married in heaven, or that it is taught in the BoM. O-yea you cannot, because it is not taught in the BoM, it is said from your so called prophets. Whats the point of the BoM if everything you believe is not taught in the BoM but taught from prophets.
Then we quote your prophets saying and teaching things as facts and as scripture, even have your prophets saying things like, We cannot lead the church astray and everything we say is from God Himself. But then when we quote these guys, you lds back track and say, we cannot know what He meant, or thats his opinion. Really? He said it was scripture and from God, you say it’s his opinion.
So you are wrong, we are not saying things taught from non-Mormons or ex-Mormons. We quote directly from your teachings and prophets and you guys reject it.
Fred said
Please explain why their are denominations with in Mormonism if they are wrong?
rick,
How many times have we been down this road with Mormon posters? It’s the same song next verse.
Andy Watson goes out and engages Mormons in discussions. They insist what he says is not true. Andy pulls out the exact reference from the bag he carries, shows them the quote and the LDS church publisher information stamping it as coming from the LDS church, and they still deny it.
Tell me what that is? It’s more than denial. When we show Mormons the information from there own sources and they deny the information right before their eyes, it goes beyond some sort of psychological mechanism.
One of the classics is Mormons not believing that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or that he “interpreted” the BoM by sticking a magic rock in his hat and shoving his face in the hat. There’s a predictable pattern that starts with denial and then goes to some incredible explanation that makes the Mormon feel better. Believe me, it doesn’t take much of an explanation for them to get their emotional equilibrium back. In this way they are like naive children.
John Dehlin, who was a Mormon at the time, did a podcast called “Mormon Stories”. He had an excellent presentation regarding why people leave Mormonism. He listed all of the facts about Mormonism that are jaw dropping to a true believer and why they cause “shaken faith syndrome”.
Now on the other hand, one of the blow-off lines Mormons will use is, “I knew all of that stuff a long time ago and it hasn’t effected my faith (in Mormonism) one bit.” So the ploy is “knowing”, “a long time ago”, and “hasn’t effected”. A true believer gets added bonus points down at the ward for knowing all the indicting information but pushing forward.