Mormons look forward to an eternity–a Heaven–characterized as a sort of divine extension of their lives on earth. Calling mortal marriage “a laboratory for godhood,” the LDS Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual states,
“In the relationship of husband and wife and parent and child we begin to approach the divine calling of godhood. Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.” (page 1; “laboratory for godhood” quote can be found on page 65.)
With such a “noble goal” in mind (page 1), Mormons envision Heaven as a very busy place of raising children and creating worlds. Latter-day Saints have no trouble recognizing that Mormonism’s concept of Heaven is very different from the Christian concept; but Mormons seem to only know a cartoon representation of the Christian Heaven–and delight to make fun of it. Consider a few statements from Mormons who have posted comments here at Mormon Coffee over the years:
“Aaron, what is your take on daily eternal fun or activities, of course you could come watch us LDS create stuff,… in fact [in the Christian Heaven] there would be no progression except deciding what cloud you would pick for that particular time and space. Interesting concept, nothing to do but sit, sing and praise…I would hard[ly] say that either I or [another LDS commenter] think being with God will be boring, but picking out clouds, remembering to bring you harp, and not forgetting the many verses you will be singing for time and eternity, hmmm, you say fun, I say boring.”
“If all you plan to do in heaven is worship God, won’t you get tired of that at some point? You must really like harp music to accept that particular role for eternity.”
“Evangelical doctrine, as I have come to understand it, does not teach anything beyond Grace, Heaven, and Hell. His grace and purpose means to bring about much more than what evangelical doctrine suggests, which so far I have learned that we float around on clouds after this life and just sing praises to God. To me, that’s bubble-gum.”
Biblically speaking, we don’t know a lot of details regarding the believers’ eternity in Heaven, but we do know this:
“The heavenly future all believers anticipate is the fulfillment of God’s purpose in creating the universe. It will include worship of the type revealed in the Book of Revelation (7:10; 11:16-18; 15:2-4). Worship will involve rehearsing God’s glorious acts (19:1-2). In addition to ascription of worth, worship will involve service – unspecified works done in obedience to God and for God (22:6)…In contrast to present suffering, God promises believers that they will reign with Christ in heavenly glory (2 Tim. 2:12; see Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4, 6). In heaven, believers will have fellowship with God and with each other in a perfect environment (Heb. 12:22-23).” (Bradford A. Mullen, “Heaven, Heavens, Heavenlies,” Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology)
The biblical depiction of Heaven is inadequate in Mormon circles. For whatever reason, Mormons seem to think the eternal worship and praise of God in song equates with boredom and bubble-gum. Isn’t this surprising in light of the Latter-day Saints’ own scripture, Mormon 7:7 in the Book of Mormon?
“And he [Jesus] have brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.” (Mormon 7:7)
Nevertheless, latter-day revelation of Mormon prophets teaches that Heaven, to be Heaven, must include a continuation of the family unit, the achievement of godhood, and the creation of worlds; sort of a “be all that you can be” mindset. As a Christian, my eternal focus is not on me, but on God. Even if Heaven was nothing but singing ceaseless praise to Him, that would be more than enough for me.
TjayT , I appreciate your concern over the importance of watching out for false prophets.
Obviously that starts with seeing who is claiming to be a prophet , the spokesman for God.
This is the main claim of Mormonism , namely that God has a prophet today through whom
His saving truths come. First and foremost among the necessary truths we need to embrace
as a Christian are truths about God– Jn 17:3 . Mormonism claims to provide these truths, and
one of these is that God was once a man who proceeded to learn how to be Almighty God . One
of the requirements that this God had to do was that of being married . After He died and was
resurrected He along with His wife proceeded to produce children in the manner that a man
and a woman produce children , this took place in heaven . These infants were spirit children.
You are one of them , who now is in the process of doing all the requirements here that will enable
you to attain to the status of the God who fathered you. One requirement necessary for you is
that of marriage. If sucessful in keeping all the requirements then after you die and are
resurrected you’ll progress to become an Almighty God , and together with your Goddess wife
you’ll produce spirit infants just like your own heavenly Father did before you, and His Father
did before Him, it’s called Eternal progression . That is Mormonism in a nut shell. That is not
the gospel of Jesus Christ. You’ve got to choose which one to embrace. Read 2 Pt2:1 ; Gal.1:8-9
2Jn.9 , this is so serious that to be wrong can be lethal, spiritually . [cont]
Rick,
Let me try and clear up some confusion for lurkers here. Mormons believe that the passage in the Bible you are referring to about no marriage in Heaven, means exactly that. Mormons believe that Jesus is saying that we won’t have a chance to get married there, so it has to be done on earth, but let’s look at the passage in context. Matthew 22:23-30 This is repeated in Mark and Luke. Christians know that Jesus said we will be as the angels in Heaven, and that no one will be married there because there is no marriage there. It would help if Mormons actually believed the words of Jesus, but if Joseph Smith contradicts Jesus, Joseph is always believed. As far as Mormons sealing the dead to each other all I have to say is WOW! I guess Jesus isn’t capable of doing anything in Mormonism. He has to have help from the Mormons ( Mormon temple work)just t0 get people to Heaven. What gets me is why Mormons feel entitled to comb the graveyards and get names off of headstones to do work for. What if that couple didn’t want to be together for eternity? LOL! Worse than that in my mind is the fact that most of these people lived their lives in a different faith than Mormonism. It is totally disrespectful to go and baptize them Mormon and set them up in the Mormon system. I think it is time that this practice is made illegal. In every other situation, using a dead persons name for anything is a crime. I think crime fits Mormon temple work also. Maybe I’ll start a crusade! LOL!
[cont]
I appreciate your reasoning here concerning ” killing two birds with one stone” , but perhaps
you don’t realize that this issue ( celestial sex) is not a ” smaller issue ” at all . You wish to look
at the doctrine of Deification rather than this other issue but do you understand that becoming
a God, being “deified” or achieving ultimate exaltation according to Mormon authorities is
contingent upon keeping the crowning gospel ordinance of Celestial marriage ? Church
curriculum clearly states, ” Our Heavenly Father and Mother live in an exalted state BECAUSE
they achieved a celestial marriage . As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are
and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children . ” ” Exaltation is based on Celestial
Marriage” . The definition of Mormon Exaltation = the continuation of your seed forever . But
how is this done? An eternal union of a male with a female . An earlier Mormon priesthood
manual explained this in no uncertain terms , stating , ” Sex among the Gods . Sex , which is
indispensable on this earth for the perpetuation of the human race, is an eternal quality… The
relationship between men and women is eternal and must continue eternally . ” Mormons
have understood this for generations. Thelma Geer a fourth generation Mormon , turned her
life over to the true Savior .She talks about her Mormon doctrinal heritage of God being an
exalted married man : ” The Mormon doctrine that God has had, and still does have , sexual
intercourse with His wives was no shock to those of us life-long LDS. ” [cont]
falcon,
Genetics is a big problem for Mormonism. The answer I was given from a Mormon poster here is laughable. I’m not even going to address him on it. Mormon posters on this site never cease to amaze me with their beliefs. I was raised in a strict Mormon community and I have to say that the off the wall minimizing of church doctrines just blows my mind. Why be a Mormon if you just down play everything Mormon? These people aren’t following the teachings of the church. I would think that would warrant an interview with the bishop. Oh wait, I guess as long as they aren’t teaching it to others as one Mormon poster informed us.
fred,
“There are two places to get knowledge of the teachings of the Church. The Church and the group of nonMormons/exMormons that teach falsehoods about the Church’s teachings. They then use these falsehoods as proof that we are wrong.”
I am and exMormon who spent 4 years researching LDS doctrines and history before leaving this false religion and you need to back up this accusation against me with evidence. Show me where I am teaching falsehoods against the church’s teachings? I can show you in depth where I am not. So please, show me your evidence because if you don’t, you are bearing false witness against me.
[cont] There’s so much more on this doctrine of Mormonism . Mrs Geer cites a book
that was approved by a committee appointed by the First Pres. as an example of what she
had learned growing up Mormon: ” …..instead of the God given power of procreation being
one of the chief things that is to pass away , it is one of the chief means of man’s exaltation
and glory in that great eternity. ” So man’s glory in heaven will be to procreate spirit children
in heaven like his Father God before him . That’s Mormonism . That’s how far Mormon
prophets have reduced God ! It smacks of the sad error confirmed in Rom. 1:23 .
TjayT , when you said, ” I do agree that if a teaching from a prophet can be proven false doctrine
then it would mean the LDS church is built on faulty logic and would’nt be true. ”
I hope you never forget those words , as they are true. Mormon leaders have actually claimed
that their counsel is the one source for “pure doctrine ” , the one trustworthy channel of
communication that God uses to reveal His spiritual truths and the correct interpretation of the
written Word of God. But the scriptures advise us to test any men who claim to be prophets , to
see if their “fruit” ( their teachings) are in accord with God’s Word — Matt 7:15; Gal.1:8-9 .
Will you do this ? May you come to see Jesus for who He really is . Bring what is right , your
righteous lifestyle, over to Jesus , walk away from your prophets. Jesus will help you.
Hello everyone,
I just want to give everyone a heads up and ask my brothers and sisters in Christ for prayer. Tomorrow Sunday Oct 30th me and my wife are leaving for Israel until Nov 12th. So I most likely will not be posting here during that time. I dont want any Mormon thinking I am running away and cannot answer people. While in Israel we will be doing some touring and seeing the sites, But also we will be out street witnessing at night. I will seek out the LDS over their but also be talking with both Muslim and Jews. I even grew my beard out and have not shaved in almost 3 months to better fit in.
I just wanted to ask all the lds a question. Me and my wife are going to Israel, on the MRM home page they are saying they will be touring Israel also. And many other groups I could mention will be going also. Then the Hold land is always in the news, People are trying to kill them and hate them.
How many Mormons visited lands mentioned in the BoM? Vermont, Illinois, New York, Utah and a few others do not count. Are their any tours to BoM holy lands that I can go on? If not why not? I know, it’s because they dont exist, and please dont say, They just have not been discovered.
rick,
I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you embark on this very important mission on the part of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As the Word says, “Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.” May the power of God’s Spirit strengthen you and give you opportunities to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Rick, I echo Falcon’s prayer for you.
Concerning the topic of this thread: There’s a good reason why many knowledgeable
Mormons might find our belief in what will transpire in heaven for us , as being boring .
This resolves around the destiny for worthy Mormon males that has been described by
prominent Mormon leaders and authors . From the MRM newsletter, 12-2008 :
” In Mormonism man is the center. Everything converges in him. All the spiritual forces
of the universe find a focus in him, with a view to his development ….man is literally and
not figuratively, the child of God, and as such inherits the nature and potentialities of his
Parents of the spirit . God, therefore , is watchfully anxious for the welfare of His child more
so than any earthly parent could be . In a sense God exists for the glory of man , not man for
the glory of God, as in the age-old Christian dogma. ” [ Joseph Smith an American Prophet,
by John Henry Evans , p.226 ] .
What Sharon has shared above concerning what our lives will be like in heaven is what I
choose over what Mormonism offers it’s men ( potential Godhood/ worship etc . Only a self
deluded person would ever worship me ! ) . Like Kate is fond of saying , ” Where is Jesus in all
of this ? ” It’s JESUS ! I’ll worship and praise Him forever because He is actually worthy of it .
Rick B,
Good luck and safe trip! It takes bravery to do what you and your wife are about to undertake. I would like to keep you in my prayers also if it doesn’t offend you.
Tjay. Were not brave, i love travling and sharing the gospel. Also my church is a major supporter of Israel. We are even having 2 people going with us from our church. They will be staying for 6 months do help the missionarys we currantly support. I’m not offended if you pray for me. But since you have a different Jesus and gospel, I don’t believe the God I serve will listen to you or answer your prayers. Rick
Thanks Falcon. I should post here more often, it’s just that I don’t have the resources to throughout all the little tidbits of information that you all have, seeming ly right at your finger tips…or even closer. But when I do see something that I can spout about…look out!
And Rick… God’s blessing on your travels and ministry. May He keep you and your wife safae in the palm of His hand. Come back soon, and tell us how it went!
In case some of you didn’t catch it, I gave a link to some information on Emanuel Swedenborg who was the inspiration for Joseph Smith’s ideas about Mormon heaven.
A source I found says the following:
In D. Michael Quinn’s excellent book “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View,” he gives a very fascinating source of Smith’s “revelations.” Quinn offers an exhaustive examination of the sources for the 1832 D&C Section 76 “Vision” of the “three degrees of glory.”
In fact, Smith’s descripton of the “Celestial Kingdom” was not only a copy from earlier written works, but also VERY controversial to the Latter-Day Saints.
The diaries of Orson Pratt and John Murdock from the 1830’s record their efforts to reassure members who questioned the 1832 vision of heaven. The two men described countless excommunications of Mormons, including branch presidents, who denounced “the degress of glory” as a “satanic revelation.” Even Brigham Young had a hard time with it at first and described it as “a trial to many.”
Why were Mormons choking on this idea of three heavens?
Quinn explains that it’s because members correctly recognized it as coming from the occult. The only other sources of separate degrees in heaven came from occult writers during and before Smith’s time.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon034.htm
I don’t know why Mormons can’t figure out what Smith was up to. The only thing I can see is that Mormons want so badly to believe the Joseph Smith myth that they suspend credulity, embrace cognitive dissonance and go with the fantasy.
Again, this is all so easy to figure out.
Falcon, I did notice your post earlier (if you where talking to me). I thank you for the information. I’ve gotten a PDF copy of Heaven and its Wonders and Hell and am going to look over it. I hope you don’t take this as me trying to dodge the issue or not believing you personally. I merely want to look over the source information myself.
Fred/FPRoy222,
Certainly many LDS do have a deeper appreciation of what heaven entails (such as President Jardine, mentioned). Unfortunately, most missionaries don’t, at least the 20 or so I’ve encountered.
In re ‘creedal Christians’; I primarily used this as a sort of shorthand, without the connotations of “evangelical” or the disputes implicit in ‘historically orthodox’.
However, in regard to creeds: “My studies have shown me that creeds are man made definitions that have been added to God’s word”; obviously they are manmade, though historically they all came about through reference to the Bible and the rule of faith. I know of no ‘creedal Christian’ who would put them on the same level as the Bible. They are summary statements composed largely in response to early Christian controversies (e.g. on the nature of Christ), and they do use some culturally specific (Greek) terms. In that sense, I take them with a grain of salt, as do the believers I know who are familiar with them. However, even in modern times they do provide a helpful summary in categories still familiar enough to us to be useful. As far as they are ‘definitions that take away from what God taught us in the Bible’, I’m not sure what they take away. For that matter, I don’t think there’s anything in the Apostles Creed that LDS can’t affirm, though we would likely quibble over definitions (definitions cleared up by the other ecumenical creeds, incidentally).
Mike R, I agree with 99% of your overview of the LDS doctrine. It shows that you do indeed know your stuff and have studied the ideas (not that I ever thought you didn’t). The only issue I take with what you said is “After He died and was resurrected He along with His wife proceeded to produce children in the manner that a man and a woman produce children” If I’m reading this correctly you are saying that the LDS church teaches the way we make spirit children is through sexual intercourse. Here’s a summery of your arguments as I understand them and my answers:
1: The early priesthood manual: ” Sex among the Gods . Sex , which is indispensable on this earth for the perpetuation of the human race, is an eternal quality… The relationship between men and women is eternal and must continue eternally . ” I agree with this statement entirely. I agreed with it when Ralph stated the same thing earlier in the thread. I have been taught that after the resurrection my wife and I can have sex if we wish. I’ve also been taught that I’ll be able to eat, dance, sing, play Frisbee and kick on the Xbox and play Halo (ok I made the last two up, but you get the idea). I’ve also been taught that it will all be for entertainment, pleasure and the building of a stronger relationship with my wife and those around me. I’ve never been taught that it’ll be needed to create spirit children, and I see nothing that would teach that in this quote. [cont]
2: Thelma Geer’s opinion: ” The Mormon doctrine that God has had, and still does have , sexual intercourse with His wives was no shock to those of us life-long LDS. I ask my next question sincerely and without sarcasm; I thought that non GA Mormons opinions on doctrine shouldn’t be considered because there are to many different opinions running around with the “layman” crowd? I honestly (and again want to stress that this is not a sarcastic question) don’t understand why it’s ok to take an ex-Mormons view of the religion but not a current-Mormons? That said I agree with her, so I’ll discuses the issue. It goes back to my answer to proof 1. Yup I agree whole heartedly that there will be sex after the resurrection. God’s resurrected so I bet he has had sex before. Bet he will again. Doesn’t say that’s how he makes spirit children.
3:A book from a committee appointed by the first pres.(idency?) ” …..instead of the God given power of procreation being one of the chief things that is to pass away , it is one of the chief means of man’s exaltation and glory in that great eternity. ” [cont]
I haven’t read the whole quote in context (could you get me a reference for this and the early priesthood manual? Like I told Falcon it’s not that I’m calling you a liar I just like to read the sources myself so I feel I can argue more intelligently) but from what I gather it’s speaking about the importance of spirit children in the Mormon doctrine. The main word here is procreate which means 1. To beget and conceive (offspring). 2. To produce or create; originate. And just so I was sure I understood (I’m sure everyone here knows by now I’m not the brightest bulb on the shelf) beget means 1. To father; sire . 2. To cause to exist or occur; produce. I don’t mean to mince words here (and I’m sure someone will say I am) but none of these explicitly involve sex. Heck, half of them don’t sound like they have anything to do with sexual reproduction. I’m sure that these arguments have played out here a thousand times but there what I know and see.
So now imo the next step would be to look as celestial marriage and see if it is a false doctrine. I will be glad to do so but I imagine that will take another three post to outline and I don’t want to be a hog.
I do still remember my words and stand by them. I thank you for the concern for my soul (again not sarcastically). I find you a very intelligent man and have enjoyed our discourse to this point.
Tommeltj, as I understand it LDS Articles of Faith is preety much creed. As such we don’t really have a leg to stand on when it comes to that argument (so long as christians put the bible before creeds as I beleve most would).
One of the problems that I see with rank and file Mormons is that they have no real appreciation or knowledge of the history of their religion and certainly not the Christian religion. The topic of “creeds” has come up on this thread. The basic Mormon line, self-serving as it is, is that the Emperor demanded that the Church have a creed. So he called the leaders together and at his insistence a creed was created. The creed is thus not “revealed” but invented by man.
Joseph Smith took advantage of the basic ignorance of history of people and used this argument himself as an excuse to create his own religion much like others were doing in that era. Most of these religious entrepreneurs had to include visions and appearances by all manner of spirit beings to bring some credibility to their creation.
The problem that occurs for these religious creative types is that pretty soon their own followers are having visions and revelations that undermine the “prophet” and his visions and revelations. Mormonism is replete with examples, past and present, of people manifesting all sorts of spiritual experiences that lead to new, better and more correct revelations.
Orson Pratt:
“The Question is, whence originated these elementary qualities of the mind? We answer, they are eternal. The capacities of all spiritual substance are eternal as the substance to which they belong. There is no substance in the universe which feels and thinks now, but what has eternally possessed that capacity. These capacities may be suspended for a season, but never can be annihilated. A substance which has not these capacities now, must eternally remain without them. The amount of matter in space can never be increased nor diminished, neither can there be a new elementary capacity added to this matter.”
cont:
Pretty creative of old Orson is it not………if you can follow it. I do believe Orson was a leader in Mormonism starting out with that champion seer and revelator Joseph Smith himself.
Here’s more of Orson’s take on the organization of spirits:
“Admitting the entity of the capacities, then the materials of which our spirits are composed, must have been capable of thinking, moving, willing, &c., before they were organized in the womb of the celestial female. Proceeding that period there was an endless duration, and each particle of our spirits had an eternal existence, and was in possession of eternal capacities. Now can it be supposed that these particles were inactive and dormant from all eternity until the received their organization in the form of the infant spirit? Can we suppose that particles possessed of the power to move themselves, would not have exerted that power during the endless duration preceding their organization?
……….If they were once organized in the vegetable kingdom, and then disorganized by becoming food of celestial animal, and then again re-organized in the form of the spirits of animals, which is a higher sphere or being, then, is it unreasonable to suppose that the particles have, from all eternity, being passed through an endless chain of unions and disunions, organizations and disorganizations, until at length they are permitted to enter into the highest and most exalted sphere of organization in the image and likeness of God?………..
WOW, that’s deep! I wonder how that went over with Brigham Young who saw himself as the Grand Poh Bah of Mormonism after the demise of the prophet Smith? Well I don’t think he took to kindly to what Orson was up to. I think he got the basic slam down from Brigham.
Maybe Mormonism could use a creed!
So Orson did get censored by the First Presidency of the Mormon Church for his very creative writings and he did accept his slap on the wrist. But where does this leave Mormons?
One Mormon respondent to the article and the authors comments said:
“You do your readers a disservice by trying to lump everything Orson Pratt ever taught into one whole, and then suggesting we reject it all. If we did that with every apostle or would reject every one of them (Joseph and Zelph, Brigham and Adam-God, etc.)”
What evidence is there that the censure Orson received was over his “spiritual atomism” teaching? My understanding is that the letter the First Presidency wrote was mostly in response to Orson’s teaching that all divine persons were exactly equally in knowledge and power and that God no long can progress.
“We must look at each of these teaching individually and accept or reject the various beliefs of different brethren one at a time and on their own merits. If not we end up discarding lots of true doctrine with incorrect ideas. I see thinking Mormons doing this with Brigham often too; throwing out the baby with the bathwater by saying “that is all part of the Adam-God complex so I reject it all”. (Some people reject the Mother in Heaven doctrine by this reasoning). ”
So Mormons actually sit around and discuss this stuff? It’s easy to see how bizarre notions can take on a life of their own.
Knowing Christ and the power of His resurrection and believing God’s Word, the Holy Bible, provides a grounding on the one and only revelation of God that there is. Mormons may as well be talking about how Santa Claus delivers all of the presents to around the world on one night.
Rick B
Before we go on, please clear up something for me. I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.
When you said:
[Jesus said we will not be married in Heaven. Then the LDS says we will be.]
were you speaking of us believing that marriages will be preformed in heaven, or were you saying that we believe that marriages will continue in Heaven?
fred
Tommeltj
I know it is hard to ignore the teachings of others that you have come to accept, but you might try reading God’s Word in the Bible with the possibility that It means something different then what you were taught by the creeds of men.
fred
Fred,
I was saying LDS teach they will be married in heaven. Married as in, your married here on earth and when you die you and your wife will be still husband and wife in heaven. But this poses a few problems.
Lets re look at what Jesus said. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Go back a few verses and read, this women had 7 husbands. They wanted to know who she will be married to in heaven. Jesus was clear we will not be married in heaven. so LDS teach we will remain married, who is right, Jesus or Mormons? I side with Jesus. But then LDS years ago taught Polygamy,
So will JS and BY have all their wives along with the other prophets who believed that? What about the FLDS or the RLDS who teach this. It is also taught and believed by LDS that polygamy will resume in heaven.
Now If I dont reply then dont think I cannot, I am leaving in less than an hour for Israel, I have a lay over in Jersey and just heard on the news they had a major snowstorm that pretty much shut down most of the state. I already hate flying and hearing that does not help. If everything goes well I should be in Israel at 3:00 pm Monday afternoon. I will try and keep up and even reply if I can. Other wise replys will come after I get home to what ever the newest topic is at the time. Rick
Rae
October 29, 2011 at 3:06 am
[Can you show any “definition” here, let alone one that “that take away from what God taught us in the Bible”? And how is the statement that “I believe the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet” any different than a creed? It even starts out with “Credo” (see above). Sure, we could write and speak volumes about what we believe, and many have, but all those words are merely an expansion of what is comtained in the simple statment of the creeds]
You are comparing a “formal” written , accepted by being voted on by the leadership of a denomination, that is a defining tenet of that denomination, to a personal statement of faith.
Sometimes formal manmade creeds are correct and sometimes they are wrong. It is said that I am not a Christian because I do not believe in the man made creedal definition of the trinity.
fred
Rick B October 29, 2011 at 8:10 am—[So please show me from the BoM where we can or will be married in heaven, or that it is taught in the BoM. O-yea you cannot, because it is not taught in the BoM, it is said from your so called prophets. Whats the point of the BoM if everything you believe is not taught in the BoM but taught from prophets.]
Why should Heavenly Father stop teaching us because part of His Word has been bound into a book?
fred
Rick B October 29, 2011 at 8:10 am—[If we believed like you then there would be no need for two denominations.
BUT,
we were talking about your demonstrated lack of knowledge of what we really teach.
Please explain why their are denominations with in Mormonism if they are wrong?]
There are not two denominations in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I was speaking of the Church as one denomination and comparing it to whatever denomination you belong to. If we believed in your version of the traditional Jesus, we could be members of your denomination.
fred
falcon October 29, 2011 at 9:04 am–[When we show Mormons the information from there own sources and they deny the information right before their eyes, it goes beyond some sort of psychological mechanism.]
For the most part I have give up on refuting claims like yours. If someone really wants the truth it is out there. And, for purposes of this blog, I really do not care if someone does not believe the same as I do, but I do care about people teaching things that we do not teach as if it were our teachings.
fred
Mike R October 29, 2011 at 9:08 am—[importance of watching out for false prophets.]
Do you believe that God will speak to us today through His Prophets, or do you believe there will be no more Prophets?
fred
fproy,
You wrote:
“For the most part I have give up on refuting claims like yours. If someone really wants the truth it is out there. And, for purposes of this blog, I really do not care if someone does not believe the same as I do, but I do care about people teaching things that we do not teach as if it were our teachings.”
Ah the classic Mormon kiss-off. Your tactic is pretty transparent. As to people teaching things that you don’t teach, help us out. It seems to me that Mormons have a warehouse of goof-ball teachings, proclamations and a propensity for endless speculation based on erroneous premises. You guys leave yourself wide open and thus can claim that you are not being understood correctly.
Myself and others on this blog have asked Mormons to straighten us out on things we have been told we are wrong about. I’ve yet to find a whole lot of clearing up done by Mormons. My observation is that Mormons sort of fill things up with their own meaning to make Mormonism more palatable (to them) and less odd appearing.
What typically happens is that after a couple of give and takes the Mormon posters paint themselves into a corner and either disappear or bear their testimony as a standard bailout.
The bottom line is that Mormonism is a created mystical tale by a guy who lived during a period when creating such tales was very popular. Mormonism has suffered through a chain of false prophets and teachers whose favorite game is endless speculation on par with the “let’s pretend” game children play. In this case Mormons are playing religion. So Mormons end up with such dandy things like adam-god, and spiritual atomism, and men living on the moon and the sun.
fproy,
Of course there are prophets and God speaks to His prophets today. The Book of Acts demonstrates this with prophets being identified and the manifesting of their anointing and gifts chronicled (Acts13: 1-3; Acts 21: 8-9; Acts 21: 10-11). First Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 is a primer on Spiritual Gifts and First Corinthians 12:10 talks about prophesy.
But we also know that the gift of prophesy and the office of the prophet can be counterfeited. Acts 16:16-19 is an example of someone manifesting a familiar spirit and being able to mimic a form of a word of knowledge.
It comes down to the type of spirit a person is being controlled and possessed by. It’s instructive when asked by which spirit they operate, Mormons will describe a spirit and a god that is not the God and Spirit revealed in God’s Word the Bible.
We also know that Joseph Smith was a practitioner of magic arts and used a seer stone for divination purposes, both forbidden by the Bible. Having sold out to the spirit of Mormonism, Mormons involve themselves in all sorts of occult activity including temple rituals in which many have claimed to have seen the spirits of dead people.
Mormons will go to any length to defend their occult practices and roots of the religion which illustrates the hold these spirits have on them.
The occult symbols that adorn Mormon temples broadcast visually what the seeds of Mormonism is. Because Mormonism uses names like Jesus, Heavenly Father and Holy Ghost, unsuspecting and unquestioning people accept it all.
So that’s all a person needs to ask when talking about prophets and prophesy; that is, what is the spirit by which the prophet is operating. In the case of Joseph Smith and his cronies it’s a no brainer.
Falcon, I promise I won’t bare my testimony here, unless for some reason someone asks me to.
TjayT , it unfortunate you discount so easily the testimony of a person who was a fourth
generation Mormon . She merely shared what she learned growing Mormon. What she said
seems way closer to Mormon doctrine on this issue we’re discussing than what you have said.
You said, ” I’ve never been taught that it’ll be needed to create spirit children , and I see
nothing that would teach that in this quote.” First of all, the fact that you may not have been
taught this doctrine is not the point, the point is, have Mormon prophets and apostles endorsed
this teaching ? ( it’s not uncommon to hear from Mormons who have been taught
about the priesthood ban on blacks , for one example ) . Secondly, I should have cited more
from this Church manual perhaps it would have made it clearer . For example on page 148 :
” Celestial Marriage . Sex is eternal, it follows of necessity that the marriage covenant may also
be eternal. It is not a far step to the doctrine that after the earth work has been completed and
exaltation in the next estate has been attained , one of the chief duties of men and women will
be to beget spiritual children. These spirits , in turn , in the process of time, will come down
upon an earth , there to obtain an acquaintance with gross matter, and through the possession
of earthly bodies …..that we may become to other spiritual beings , what our God has been to us.”
[ Melchizedek Priesthood study, A Rational Theology , by Apostle John Widstoe ] cont
cont.
Here’s another authority that confirms what was just cited: it from a Church manual , the
part I’m quoting from is is a dialogue format : ” Celestial Marriage , key to Man’s Destiny :
‘ I think so . I can be a god only if I act like a God, ‘ ‘ Exactly right. Can you imagine the state
of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space,
if beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds? ‘ ” I guess that
would be pretty disastrous. But I’m not sure I see why celestial marriage becomes the crowning
apex of this progression. Marriage does’nt seem directly related to the creation of the universe.’
‘ Oh, but don’t be limited by your mortal perspective. God himself has declared his own reasons
for existing . Remember , he said , ” For this is my work and my glory….” ‘ I see his purpose is
” to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man ” ( Mses 1:39). ‘ ‘ Which involves giving
birth to spirit children and setting them on the road to exaltation. ‘
TjayT , this is what Eternal Progression is all about . If you’re worthy then one day you’ll
fulfill Moses 1:39 just like your Heavenly Father is doing now . The part of your response was
disappointing was when you tried to rationalize out of the clear meanings of ” procreate” and
” beget” . Can you see how these words were used IN CONTEXT ? What do they refer to when
we’re talking about a male plus a female = a baby ? cont
cont.
Your attempt to use these two words the way you did reminded me of when Bill Clinton was
asked by reporters if he had sex with that female intern . He was quite creative in his response
of denying that he had . But he was wrong, and respectfully so are you on this point .
I see that Mormon belief is, that you are on the path that your Heavenly Father has traveled .
( Eternal Progression ). One Mormon apostle has taught : ” God the Father had a plurality of
wives , one or more in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits…” Notice the “by whom ” ?
Another one ” Mormons believe that all men were born in the spirit world of the union of the
sexes , having a literal father and a literal mother before coming to this world… ” [ Apostle
G.Q. Cannon , Gospel Truth , v 1 p. 129 ] . Would not this be your journey, your privilege after
you become exalted also ? More could be shared on this issue . I personally don’t see how
this could be that cloudy. But it is your business whether you believe it or not . Because Mormon
leaders claim to be the consistent trustworthy channel that God uses to dispense His spiritual
truths through, and considering that this doctrine of Gods and Goddesses peopling worlds with
children , children who will render worship to their Father-God , I have to obey the counsel of
Jesus’ original apostles and politely dismiss this as false doctrine from false prophets. There is
only one true God and one true eternal marriage–Rev19:7-10
Fred, as I said before, your a typical Mormon. As falcon pointed out, LDS tell us we are wrong and thats it. I pretty much said that to you already. I asked you to give examples of things we say that LDS teach or taught and show us how we are wrong and correct us. You have yet to do that. By the way this is sent from my phone. I am in Jersey waiting to go to Israel.
TjayT, I forgot to cite a couple references that used . In my second post above the Church
Manual I used was , Achieving a Celestial Marriage” (1976) p. 5 . Also I did’nt list Apostle
Orson Pratt in one quote I used.
Allow me to cite one more Church Manual , this one came over 20 years after the one above,
so the doctrine was still endorsed by Mormon Authorities. From p. 167 of Eternal Marriage
Student Manual : ” Indeed , the formal pronouncement of the Church , issued by the First
Presidency and the Council of the Twelve states, ‘ So far as the stages of eternal progression
and attainment have been made known through divine revelation , we are to understand that
only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring . ”
from p. 163 : It was from him that I learned that the wife of my bosom might be secured to me
for time and all eternity…..that we might cultivate these affections , grow and increase in the
same to all eternity; while the result of our endless union would be an offspring as numerous
as he stars of heaven ….”
God has a wonderful life awaiting all who have come to Him thru faith in His Son, To worship
the Only True Creator in existence anywhere is to be in the truth. This God has created sex
and called it good between husband and wife , but He has a life awaiting His people that
is so much more special than even sex. 1Cor 2:9 WOW!
Fred- “You are comparing a “formal” written , accepted by being voted on by the leadership of a denomination, that is a defining tenet of that denomination, to a personal statement of faith.
Sometimes formal manmade creeds are correct and sometimes they are wrong. It is said that I am not a Christian because I do not believe in the man made creedal definition of the trinity.”
I’m not well schooled in the language of debate, but I believe that your last sentence would be begging the question. The Trinity, and the written expressions thereof may, in your opinion, be man made. In mine, they are not. Man written certainly, but not man made. The Creeds are a formalization of orthodox Christianity believes, that doesn’t make them man made any more than you would say that the testimony that everyone bears at a sacrament meeting is man made despite the very similar formula and words used to announce that personal statement of belief. If I were to stand up in church and testify, (assuming my church was of the testifin’ kind-it’s not:)) I wouldn’t be repeating what the person before me said. I would be giving my own personal testimony of what God has done in my life.
One other thing…the Creeds that are meant in the term “creedal” were developed by the “Church”, not a denomination. There weren’t any denominations as we define them today when the Creeds were written. Yes, some denominations have their own creeds specific to them. We Baptists don’t have a “creed” we have a “Statment of Faith” which is a summary of our particular beliefs as Baptists, in other words, a creed. The “Creeds”, Apostle’s, Nicene, etc., are a summary of the… (cont)
dumb HTML tags…..
(cont)
beliefs of the othrthodox, universal, Body of Christ, church. And the general consensus is, if you don’t agree with what the Creeds say, then, no, you are not considered by orthodox Christians to be a member of the Chritian faith.
Wow. That’s more than all my other posts here combined.
Ignore this. I’m trying to get out of the italics.
dumb HTML tags.
die italics!!!!!
Mike R, I’m a fourth generation Mormon on my mothers side and at least the same on my fathers (it may be five, I don’t keep up with genealogy). I’m also sharing what I learned growing up Mormon. Does that mean that my observation on Lds doctrine should hold as much weight as hers and that they cancel each other out? I don’t think so, but then I don’t care how long someone’s family has been Lds. (Random side thought, I hate Mormons who go around proudly proclaiming that they can trace there family back to pioneers! So can I, who gives a crap, it doesn’t make you better then a brand new convert, get over yourself (that wasn’t pointed to Mrs. Geer)). Also she didn’t say he’s knocking up his goddess/wives, she said many life-long Lds believe he still has sex. And I didn’t discount her, I agreed with her. I also agree that it doesn’t matter if it’s something I have or haven’t been taught so long as the church believes or ever has believed it. If I had never been taught about celestial marriage in the first place it wouldn’t make it any less of an Lds belief (Did you mean to say it not uncommon to hear from Mormons who haven‘t been taught about the priesthood ban? If that‘s the case that’s a sad state of affairs. I was born in 1984 and even I know about it.). [cont]
I attempted to use the words in that manor because that is most likely what an old fashioned conservative organization like the Lds church would us it in context (and comparing me to Clinton? Come on, I thought we where keeping this above the belt ;)). For example, the quote from the Achieving a Celestial Marriage where it says “Sex is eternal”. I would bet a cool twenty that if we found the guy that wrote that and asked him what he meant he would tell us he was speaking about gender. If the Lds church leaders are ANYTHING there stuck in 1955 and would probably tell you that gay still means happy and a bundle of sticks is a word I can’t utter in good company.
For the sake of this discussion to go further I’ll accept the premise that the Lds doctrine teaches that when a man and women are exalted they will in some way have sexual relations and create new spirits this way (since the text isn’t 100% clear then it could very well mean this). Our next step is to prove it false doctrine and therefore prove the Mormons false. As you have said the way to prove false doctrine is to check it with the bible. And here is the problem, unless I’m mistaken the bible doesn’t talk celestial sex and the idea of procreation between God and his wife. As I believe someone else in this thread said earlier the idea is so far removed form mainstream Christianity that it’s not even listed in the top ten heresies. So if the bible can’t shine any light on the subject where do we go?
[cont]Thanks btw for the resources. Looks like I’ll need to scrape up a few bucks and buy that Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual after all. And I agree whole heartedly God has more amazing things in store for us then we can ever dare to dream.
Rae, Looks like I’m stuck in them too! Is it a site thing?
TjayT, When I mentioned Bill Clinton It was not my intent to compare you personally to
him, just that your attempt to dodge the clear meaning of the two words in context sounded
similiar to his rationalizing. I’m Sorry if you were offended. I’m afraid though that you’re
making this whole issue a bit to difficult . Again, let me be clear , you can believe anything
you want to about this , but I am seeking to examine the claims of the Mormon Church,
and that means looking at what Mormon prophets and apostles have taught . Either these
men are reliable guides in spiritual truth or their not . Your very salvation hinges on their
claims. You admit that the Bible can’t shine any light on this teaching we’re discussing , that
is correct , and that’s whyI reject it . Everything necessary for a right relationship with God
and receiving eternal life is revealed in the Bible. Here’s what a Mormon apostle has said :
” Indeed so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings
of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed persons say : ‘ If all men believed the
Bible, all would be Mormons, ‘ Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine ,and Mormon doctrine is
Bible doctrine. They are one in the same . ” [ What the Mormons Think of Christ, p.2 , as
cited in Mormon Claims Answered , by Marvin Cowan p 23 ] . If Mormonism is the actual
true gospel “restored” it should agree with the N.T. on salvation issues . So where do
we go from here? Nowhere.
Oh I wasn’t really offended by the Clinton reference I was trying to inject a bit of humor. I’m sorry if you took me seriously. I agree with you that there are instances when Lds GA’s have made references to creating spirits using some form of procreation. I also agree there’s no way for me to honestly refute the idea that may involve physical intimacy between to exalted beings. And if the teaching of this contradicted the bible then it would be false doctrine. But since the bible doesn’t say anything about the subject the teaching doesn’t disagree with the N.T. (how can something go against a vacuum) and we can’t prove it true or false.
Thanks for the discussion though as well as the information and perspective. And thank you for truly being so civil. I was worried coming here that I would just get name calling and flaming. But Mormon Coffee and MRM are great sites with great people running and reading them. I’m glad to know there’s a place I can come discuss and try to learn that may not agree with me but does tolerate me
Also thanks to Falcon for the information on Swedenborg and his teachings. I’m muddling through the info as best I can and there are some things that I’ll need to think about and look for credible answers (it’s just a coincidence isn’t a credible answer in my book).
I received this e-mail. I sure makes it hard to show you’ll all the mistakes you take for truth.
fred
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Sorry, but you have exceeded your daily comment limit [6] at Mormon Coffee.
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Kate October 29, 2011 at 9:49 am–[Mormons believe that Jesus is saying that we won’t have a chance to get married there, so it has to be done on earth, but let’s look at the passage in context. Matthew 22:23-30]
Thank you for speaking to the difference in our beliefs and not to something untrue that is made up to make us look bad.
In Mathhew 22:30 the Lord says:”For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
Instead of seeing “they neither marry” as the continuation we take with us from this life, like you seem to believe, we see it as a reference to not performing the marriage ceremony in the afterlife, like the act of someone giving their daughter in marriage cannot be done in the afterlife. It must be done in this life.
Also, please remember that we believe angels to be our brothers and sisters and not some sort of separate being.
fred
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Rejected: Sunday 30th of October 2011 at 09:16 PM
TjayT, I ‘m glad to see that you sense how serious this issue is . Since you realize that this
doctrine has been advocated by your leaders it is imperative that it be evaluated by God’s
Word the Bible, you acknowledge this , which is great. Concerning your reasoning that since
the Bible does’nt teach this doctrine then it does’nt disagree with the N.T. etc. I would direct
your attention to Gal.1:8-9. Notice that Paul is concerned about false teachings that would
masquerade as the true gospel . Those seeking to introduce ( see 2Pt2:1 ) a false doctrine
which Jesus had not given His apostles to preach , something they did not say , etc. then
it was to be rejected. You said this doctrine does’nt disagree with the N.T. , but look at it in
light of Gal.1:8-9 ; 2Jn 9 , we are on safe ground if we keep what Jesus gave His apostles to
teach , and dismiss any teaching that would “add” to that . When it comes to what we need
to establish a personal relationship with God through Jesus , one that culminates in eternal
life for us , the N.T. is the great road map . False prophets seek to detour us from this road by
their claims of being hand picked by God to reveal “other” saving truths, and please remember
that not all false prophets are immoral or violet men, some live and teach a decent moral
lifestyle. Please avail yourself of the articles on this ministry’s Home page . May God guide
you in testing your prophets– 1 Jn.4:1 . Take care.
fproy2222,
You see Fred, here’s the thing. You can come here and tell us all what you believe but I can tell you from my experience on this blog, no two Mormons posting here believe the same thing, and not much that has been said here by Mormons is even close to what I was taught and believed in my 40 years as a Mormon. So the “don’t make up stuff about us and what we believe” that you keep putting out there is silly. The Christian posters here take your leaders and what they have said and done over the past 180 years more seriously than what an individual Mormon believes. Like it or not, there have been heretical doctrines and teaching by LDS leaders right up to the present day. The problem I have with Mormons now days is that they defend all of this no matter what the cost, when all it would take is for Thomas Monson to stand up and clarify the “official” doctrines of the LDS church. Why isn’t he doing that? He had the perfect chance a few weeks ago at general conference. Why the secrecy about what the LDS believe and what is official and what isn’t? Why isn’t he shouting out to the world all the revelation that he has been given as the only mouthpiece of God on earth? Isn’t he supposed to be bringing people to Christ and telling the world about all the new knowledge that God has given him? I have my theories as to why he hasn’t done it and why he never will. No one has made up anything on this blog. It can all be referenced. You don’t have to believe it, but what is said by Christians here is true.