In an article published last week in The Tennessean (31 October 2011), the journalist interviewed Latter-day Saint Emily Halverson. Emily told the reporter that in middle Tennessee, far outside the so-called Book of Mormon Belt, people are curious about Mormons but reluctant to bring up the subject. Emily and her husband, Jared, have talked about how they might open up the topic for conversation with non-Mormons.
“’We’ve joked about, if you’re meeting someone who is not a member, saying “What’s five things you always wanted to ask a Mormon?”’ she said. ‘We want people to ask questions.’”
As I think about it, the list of questions I’d like to ask Mormons seems to have no end.
Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson once wrote a book (now out of print) filled with “Questions to Ask Your Mormon Friend.” All of them are good and interesting questions, but my personal favorite is “Why does the Mormon Church ignore Jesus’ role as prophet of God’s church?”
McKeever and Johnson point out the bedrock assertion of the LDS Church that modern-day revelation is essential; the true church must be (and according to Mormonism is) guided by a living prophet. Mormons rally around this fundamental claim, and criticize Christians for not being guided by a living prophet today. But they are mistaken.
As McKeever and Johnson detail in their book, the prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18 is none other than Jesus (see John 5:46, 6:14, 7:37-40). The apostle Peter repeated Moses’ prophetic and solemn words for his audience in Jerusalem:
“…God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’” (Acts 3:21-23)
McKeever and Johnson write,
“Peter’s message was clear. We must listen to the words of the prophet prophesied by Moses…
“The bodily resurrection of Christ proves that He forever lives. Jesus is the final authority. To disregard His words is to bring destruction upon oneself. This fact, coupled with the aforementioned passages, demonstrates that Christ’s church does have a living prophet guiding it today: His name is Jesus! He is to be our source of truth…
“True followers of Christ readily accept the revealed Word of God which has been a time-tested truth throughout the centuries and which Jesus said ‘would not pass away’ [Mt. 24:35]…
“It is by God’s Word, the Bible, that all things are compared, including the words of those who claim to be modern prophets.” (Questions to Ask Your Mormon Friend, 79-81)
From this question, many others logically follow. But I would like to turn this over to you. Mormon Coffee friends, what are your top questions for Mormons? Ask away–and also, perhaps, explain why the answers really matter.
Amos 3:10
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, unless he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.
When did God state He was changing His Doctrine or excluding this verse to be overridden by a new principle of Christ being the last of all Prophets.
Surely God does not lie, the verse is obviously making a clear statement and it is the Christian misunderstanding of foundational principles and Church Government. God does not change, does not lie and did continue the line of Prophets with the Apostles and First Presidency of Peter, James and John until the great apostasy occurred and changed the NT foundation of Revelation, Authority, and Priesthood Office. Why do Christian continue to mess up proven Doctrine and replace it with Apostate teachings?
My question is: “How can a Mormon be ‘promoted’ from the Aaronic priesthood to the Melchisedec priesthood?” Chapter 7 of the book of Hebrews has a lot to say about Melchisedec. According to verse 14 Melchisedec came from a different tribe, he “…sprang out of Juda…” and the Aaronic priesthood came from the tribe of Levi.
Hebrews7:13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
I would like to ask Mormons to prove a great apostasy. Every Mormon I know just regurgitates what they hear at church. I don’t know of one that has actually studied the first few centuries of Christianity or the Council of Nicea. That doesn’t mean Mormons who post here haven’t studied, but the ones I know, are clueless and just repeat the same tired lines. Funny how they all say the exact same thing word for word. To say there was a great apostasy one would have to call Jesus a liar. Jesus came, gave us his Church and said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it Matthew 16:18. He also said that where there are two or three gathered in his name, he is there among them Matthew 18:20. We can also look back to all the writings and the Bible to see that people have been gathered in his name since his Resurrection. Where in all of the ancient writings is one thing Mormon found? I’m sorry, but with all the writing that was done, not every single thing could have been destroyed. This is a huge problem for Mormonism because without a great apostasy, the church is false.
A person has to look at history to realize that something is wrong. When people can be burned at the stake for stating the earth revolves around the sun and Translating the bible into the native language. Their has got to be something wrong when the glory of God is intelligence.
Solid LDS,
God did not change His doctrine – He Himself as fulfilled it and continues to be our great High Priest!
“In many and various ways, God spoke to His people of old by the prophets. But now in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son.” Hebrews 1:1-2a
We are lead by a resurrected and living High Priest – God Himself – the eternal God Man who redeems His Church and leads it, forgiving our sins and giving us eternal life with God.
In view of the fact that Jesus is our great High Priest and eternal Prophet, leading His Church and sustaining as God – why would we need another prophet or priest? Why do Mormons not accept the true High Priest and prophet, but rather seek those titles for themselves?
SolidLDS , Amos 3:7 is simply stating that God is going to bring judgement against His people
because of their sin but He won’t do “nothing ” ( in the way of punishing them) without first
warning them . Amos 3:1-7 . God used mere men as messengers until His plan to send His Son to
earth as the ultimate “messenger/prophet — Mark.12:1-8;Gal.4:4 Acts 10:43 ; Lk.24:25-27.
Jesus’ word given to His apostles to spread , after His resurrection with the help of the Holy Ghost
is what God desired mankind to know about being forgiven and receiving a right relationship
with Him unto eternal life. If this simple message these men spread to those they encountered
has been “messed up” , it’s been messed up by false prophets and apostles who never cease
trying to reveal new “requirements” man use do in order to be right with God . Creating a title
such as “First Presidency” for Peter, James and John might be a way to tie in your leaders with
those apostles but that is as far as it goes. It’s very convenient for false prophets to claim some
connection with Jesus’ original apostles , or even with Jesus Himself , in order to add weight to
their false teachings . This together with the lie of a complete apostasy , an extermination of
Jesus’ true followers, allows false prophets to advertise that their group are the true Christians
today .This is the message of the prophets and apostles of Mormonism. I submit that we all
don’t need another man , another prophet , directing all other followers of Jesus , as THE
mouthpiece of God on earth today. We don’t this prophet, we need a personal Savior.
“What’s five things you always wanted to ask a Mormon? We want people to ask questions.” — Emily Halverson
Here are the five questions I would like to ask:
1. In the opening verses of the New Testament book of Galatians, we read that if anyone preaches a gospel of another kind than is taught in the Bible, that person shall be accursed. Do you believe the Bible is the final authority for truth?
2. Joseph Smith has said that in founding a new religion, he received many revelations. By his own understanding, did these new revelations accord with the Bible?
(Answer: “There are many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelations of the Holy Ghost to me” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 310).)
3. If you were to go on a walk tonight, and a swerving automobile were to kill you, you are going to meet God. What would you say if he were to ask, “What right do you have to enter my Heaven?”
4. LDS people are often interviewed by their leaders. They are asked a series of questions pertaining to their beliefs and manner of conduct. If the leader tells them they are worthy, or righteous, does that make them so in the sight of God?
(Answer: The Bible states that not even one human being is righteous; Romans 3:10.)
5. As Christmas approaches, many people will be buying gifts for their friends and family members. Did you know the Bible also speaks of a gift? It speaks of the Gift of God. What is that gift? Have you received it?
(See Romans 6:23.)
Brian,
In your first question you ask ” In the opening verses of the New Testament book of Galatians, we read that if anyone preaches a gospel of another kind than is taught in the Bible, that person shall be accursed.”
When I read all of Galatians 1 I find nothing that states it is Bible only as you are asking here. You might try and use verse 9 but this is what it says – ”As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
To summarise, preach another gospel than what has been received. Does not specify ‘THE BIBLE’, just what has been received. Well let’s look at what has been received. By this point in time the only ‘scriptures’ they had was the Jewish scriptures, there was no New Testament what-so-ever. So if we take it at face value, then we should only be looking at the OT for gospel.
But then a little further in Galatians 1 we read ”11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” So the gospel was received by revelation from Jesus Christ. Doesn’t JS make that claim?
But still, if the Bible is all that we have to go on, then what about the 3 lost epistles of Paul? These are referred to here – 1 Cor. 5:9, Eph. 3:3 and Col. 4:16. If found and they corroborate the LDS gospel, would these be considered a different gospel or the same one as in the Bible?
Dear Ralph,
Thanks for your comments. I agree with you that Paul received the gospel by the revelation of Jesus Christ. However, the Galatians would later receive the gospel by the person of Paul during his visit to them, when they received it (and Paul) with joy (Galatians 4:12-20). But then everything went wrong. They deserted the one who “called you in the grace of Christ” (Galatians 1:6). Paul is now writing to the Galatians in this epistle, taking them to the woodshed.
What is Galatians all about? It tells us what the gospel is not. The gospel is not a code of laws. (While the law of God is good, it brings condemnation on all who try to obey it.)
What is Romans about? It tells us what the gospel is. The gospel reveals how God makes us righteous in his sight. Romans is the most systematic presentation of the gospel that has ever been made, or ever will be. As Romans is part of the Bible, we know the gospel Jesus Christ revealed to Paul, which he delivered to the Galatians (Galatians 1:8).
Let’s look at Galatians itself:
1. Called in grace (Galatians 1:6)
2. “If righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose” (Galatians 2:21)
3. “All who rely on works of the law are under a curse” (Galatians 3:10)
4. Paul promises to never boast about anything, with one exception: the Cross (Galatians 6:14)
4fivesolas, “God did not change His doctrine – He Himself as fulfilled it and continues to be our great High Priest!”
Exactly, that is why I quote from the Bible,
Amos 3:10
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, unless he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.
So if God does not change His Doctrine, then the above verse is still relevant. Thank you.
“God used mere men as messengers until His plan to send His Son to
earth as the ultimate “messenger/prophet”
You see this is how the apostate doctrine gets rid of Apostles and Prophets, they make it up as they go.
After Christ ascended into heaven, He left the Church in the Hand of those He gave the Keys of the Kingdom, Peter being the chief Apostle or Presiding President, never the less all the apostles were Prophets, Seers and Revelator until the were killed or died and left the Office vacant and with out any further authority. You are a member of a dead Church, you can not claim any authority to act in Christ name.
Solid LDS,
You don’t get it – we have a living High Priest and Prophet – the Lord Jesus Christ, the God Man who is eternally our living prophet. who forgives our sins and gives us eternal life with God. We have no need for another to take His place.
Solid LDS
BTW – I think you mean Amos 3:7
Question:
1) Since Adam God was taught by the living Mormon prophet, and yet is not official Mormon doctrine (even thought temple rituals were altered to add it in, and it was taught in General Conference) how does the LDS Church determine when the prophet is just speculating during General Conference, and when is he teaching official doctrine?
2) Do Mormons eat meat sparingly except in the winter, so as to follow their prophet’s word of wisdom? If not, why not?
Sharon, thanks for opening the floor in such a thoughtful way.
I really want to address your question to the peanut gallery.
1) Why do Mormons tell you to ONLY ask them questions while researching LDS faith and history when Mormons themselves are sworn to secrecy about certain topics? Why is it that Mormons won’t tell you the full story, and they get testy when you do research without them watching over your shoulder?
It’s like they’re afraid of what you might learn and feel the need to dole out information in easy to swallow bits. They don’t trust you enough to make your own decision.
This is important to me because I have Mormon friends who prefer I ask them everything instead of use my own brain to look things up.
2) Along the lines of what Kate said, when does the LDS Church say the Great Apostasy happened? Why are Mormons so vague about it? It seems that Mormons like the concept of a great apostasy but are unwilling to specify what exactly caused it and when it occurred.
3) If the Garden of Gethsemane (instead of the cross) is where Jesus atoned for our sins, why doesn’t the Book of Mormon make that clear?
4) Exactly what so called false doctrines of Christianity does the Book of Mormon (not Joseph Smith) rectify? Baptism of the dead and temple rites aren’t even in the Book of Mormon.
5) If it’s so important to know that Brigham Young is the proper successor to Joseph Smith, why are so many of Young’s teachings (Adam God theory, blood atonement) dismissed? You can’t have it both ways. Either he was a prophet or he wasn’t.
6) Why are Mormons happy to tell you that all of the Three Witnesses died insisting that the golden plates were real, but they always forget that David Whitmer later said that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and that God told him to leave the LDS Church?
7) Why is it that the Mormons I know in person are decent people, but the ones online are angry and spiteful?
8) Why do Mormons act like the penalty oaths of the temple are fake anti-Mormon propaganda when they are well-documented to be a true (though now ended) part of temple ordinances?
9) How can Mormons expect you to trust them when they can’t even admit they keep secrets and always hide behind the “sacred but not secret” mantra?
Brian,
Paul received the Gospel through revelation and disseminated it to the people, as you explained. I agree there. As I said, so did JS and Martin Luther, and … (pick a name) through-out the Christian history. All have brought their ‘opinion’ to the table about what the Gospel is according to their translation/interpretation of the Bible. So who is correct?
I have found my evidences to prove that I am following the true Gospel and that it is the Gospel of the Bible. You follow a different gospel thus you are the one that is accursed. But then you have your own opinion which is reverse. Ultimately it is Jesus who will tell us who is right and who is wrong – it could be one or the other or neither of us.
But I think you missed the point I was making above – you stated ”we read that if anyone preaches a gospel of another kind than is taught in the Bible, that person shall be accursed”
Please note what you wrote in bold. My comment was that they did not have the Bible at that point in time, their only scriptures were the scriptures of the Jews. So they did not have a reference point except the epistles that they received and any face to face teaching from the Church Authorities who received the gospel through revelation.
So your mention of the Bible only is wrong as we know it is incomplete as I referenced above with at least 3 Pauline epistles missing. So where do we get the knowledge of the Gospel from – from Church Authorities through revelation from Jesus Christ – well at least according to Paul and the Bible.
I’m new to this site and find it very interesting. I’m not mormon but have many friends that are. I’m not sure what to believe. I’ve been trying to do a lot of research on my own. One thing that always has me confused is the Godhead (whether godhead is one or three separate). One of the questions it asks in the blog entry is… “Why does the Mormon Church ignore Jesus’ role as prophet of God’s church?”
If the Godhead is one, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that one of Jesus’ roles is prophet of God’s church. If Jesus and God are one in the same, that statement just doesn’t make sense to me.
4fivesolasd, “You don’t get it – we have a living High Priest and Prophet – the Lord Jesus Christ, the God Man who is eternally our living prophet. who forgives our sins and gives us eternal life with God. We have no need for another to take His place.”
Of course Christ is a High Priest and Prophet, but even more He is Christ the Lord, Savior to all mankind. What happens when God wants to communicate to the Church in these last days, how will you know and who will you listen too? For now, no one speaks for Orthodox Christianity, they are left to flounder and only have past Prophets to guide them in these times, who is your teacher, who expounds the scriptures and who is the the one who carries the keys of the kingdom. If the key were once given, where in the scriptures does it tells us that Christ took them back? You fail in so many ways to explain Doctrine and Doctrine Principles. Grace being the most misunderstood of all your preachings.
Solid, you must not be reading the same posts I’ve been reading. Solas has been very clear that JESUS is the teacher and we should look to HIM since He is the ETERNAL priest and prophet.
Mormons shout from the rooftops that they are the restored first century Christianity yet they ignore Hebrews 1:1 which says that Jesus replaced the prophets! On the mountain of Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses vanish and the Father tells us to listen to the SON. The prophets are gone and only the Son remains.
Also, why don’t you tell us where in the Book of Mormon it says that there will be an unending line of prophets? What prophet of the Old Testament had 12 apostles? If the prophets of the LDS Church are divinely inspired, why does the church vote on them? Did the Jews vote to sustain Moses or Elijah?
Solid LDS, God Himself became a man and became our prophet, priest, and king. Who do I look to? I look to my Saviour Jesus Christ, who forgives my sins. Where do I find God’s living Word – His voice speaking to me? In the Holy Scriptures, His inerrant Word. Christ Himself confirms that I am His and that “whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life.” John 3:16 He has marked me as His in Holy Baptism. I have been baptized into Christ and have been “clothed with Christ” Galatians 3:27. The Church has the keys of the kingdom, giving eternal life through Christ to all who repent and trust in Christ’s mercy, and with-holding forgiveness from those who do not or will not. John 20:23 – We have been given the great privledge of bringing the good news of forgiveness in Christ to sinners, however, unrepentant sinners who will not acknowledge that they need forgiveness and seek instead to justify themselves or earn their own salvation, God’s forgiveness is withheld. The Church brings the message of “salvation by faith through grace, and not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8 If one will not acknowledge their sinful nature and need of a redeemer and seeks instead their own righteousness, there is no forgiveness for them as they will not accept His free gift, but instead errantly conclude they have no need of it.
Dale,
Just a small response to some of your questions –
Q1) Andy Watson (an evangelical on this site) stated in “Mormon official equates Christianity with a false cult” on Oct 13 –
So I guess these friends of yours are asking you to do the same as what Andy has told me to do , research only LDS sites and literature. Also note the word I have bolded – so I guess Andy is not going to listen to any ex-LDS members on this site and is asking anyone who is coming here wanting to learn about the LDS church to only listen to the LDS members’ responses. 🙂
But yes I know how to do research – you look at all the available literature both pro and anti and then using your own experimentation prove to yourself one way or the other.
Q2) We do not know the specific date/year the apostasy started, only it started when the last of the Apostles left the general populace (ie most were killed and John was removed from the general population).
Q3) We teach that the Atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus suffered for our sins, but it finished on the morning Jesus was resurrected and that the cross was part of His suffering for our sins, but was chiefly a method for His death which was an essential part of the Atonement. Without His suffering for our sins and death and resurrection, the Atonement would not work.
Q4) Off the top of my head, infant baptism.
Q6) David Whitmar can say what he wants to about JS; does not make it right or wrong. But he did not deny the testimony of the Gold Plates did he? This is a disconnect here as calling JS a fallen prophet and his testimony about seeing the gold plates are 2 different things.
Q7) Maybe because online its usually anonymous and they can get away with it. But are you saying all LDS you have met on the net are bad examples? 🙁
In answer to your question about an OT prophet with 12 – look at Moses. He was given by revelation from God the name of 12 princes, one from each tribe (including Levi) to assist him in governing the Israelites. Because the Israelites were a theocracy, and Moses was their prophet and ‘ruler’ (for want of a better word) these 12 were more secular than religious. But a little later he was told by God to take 70 elders to assist him in the religious ruling of the Israelites. Can’t remember the verses but I have it all written up at home, so if you want later this arvo I can post them for you.
What did Jesus do? He chose 12 men and set them apart from the other disciples as Apostles. A little later when the work was greater Jesus called 70 (or 72 in some translations) to assist the 12 Apostles – note, these 70 assisted the 12, they did not do anything else by their own volition in governing the church or receiving revelation according to the use of that word.
Me thinks me sees a pattern.
SolidLDS, It’s unfortunate you don’t understand how special and unique Jesus’ care for
His followers is. After Jesus ascended into heaven He did’nt leave His Church in the hands
of some so-called “Presiding President” who declares himself to be the one man on earth who
is God’s sole mouthpiece to all other followers of Jesus. That’s a line that some false prophets
love to use in advertising their “authority”, and it goes well with another of their exclusive
claims—– a complete apostasy of Jesus’ church, the extermination of the Messiah’s true
followers and no saving truths available until now etc. How sad that people can fall for this.
Jesus has always been with His followers , the Holy Ghost guiding them into the saving truths
of the N.T. which Jesus’ original apostles faithfully spread to people and which we can also
embrace today. Jesus said to beware of false prophets.
For those of you that are interested in the Lds view of the “Great Apostasy” I happened upon a five part video on the subject by Roger Keller. He’s a former minister and a professor at BYU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K0bIejLaV8
curious,
Welcome to Mormon Coffee. I’m pretty new here myself so hopefully we can learn together. I also happen to be one of the Mormons posting on the site.
You said “If the Godhead is one, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that one of Jesus’ roles is prophet of God’s church. If Jesus and God are one in the same, that statement just doesn’t make sense to me.”
I can’t sit here and say I’m an expert on the issue, but from what I know (and that’s the Lds perspective) God and Jesus are two separate beings, so Jesus can be the Prophet of God’s church on earth. And since he can’t be here in the flesh at all times he has delegated that authority to the most senior member of the Lds Quorum of the Twelve.
Ralph, here are my reactions to your responses
Q1) I exactly agree with you here. Mormons need to give investigators a break in that they can do their own research and think for themselves. When I buy a car, I am least likely to trust the salesman who insists I only listen to him. This, frankly, is a HUGE problem and feels very cult-like.
This also goes back to the fact that Mormons are sworn to silence on many issues but expect you to only listen to them.
Q2) Not giving a specific date for the apostasy is too porous and vague. It also makes the giant assumption that the apostles did not pass on their authority via the laying on of hands. The apostles went out to teach the gospel; the apostasy assumes they had no students.
Q3) Again, where does the Book of Mormon equate the Garden as the atonement?
Q4) Thank you. I’m glad that you can point out one practice that is “fixed” by the Book of Mormon. IMO, this shows that Joseph Smith followed the Protestant ideas at the time and nothing more. None of the doctrines that are distinct to Mormons are there like baptism for the dead, temple rites, or becoming a god. In other words, the BOM just supported Protestants, nothing radical. I’m sure this “evidence” would have persuaded people in the 1800s.
Q6) Your answer about David Whitmer closely relates to question 1 about secrecy. You see his witness that Smith was a false prophet as a separate issue, I see it as a truth that is CONVENIENTLY left out. It’s proof positive that Mormons leave out the parts of their history that might make you question it altogether.
Q6 Continued) Ralph, I have to also tell you that whenever I discover a Mormon cover-up of facts, like the David Whitmer issue (or Smith lying about his polygamy), my LDS friends brush it off the way you did with remarks like “That’s unimportant. That’s no necessary to know. That’s a separate issue” Again, I feel like I’m getting the salesman pitch.
Why do Mormons never admit to covering anything up? NEVER. That probably bothers me the most.
The problem with the Moses issue is that Mormons usually take an incredibly vague idea and force a parallel to the New Testament, especially the Temple. The Mormon temple and the OT have nothing in common but the word temple.
Dale says: “Also, why don’t you tell us where in the Book of Mormon it says that there will be an unending line of prophets? What prophet of the Old Testament had 12 apostles? If the prophets of the LDS Church are divinely inspired, why does the church vote on them? Did the Jews vote to sustain Moses or Elijah?”
Have you completely read the Book of Mormon? does not the Book of Mormon show that Prophets were essential all during the time there history was being recorded? What else would you need to know since the example it self is in place.
NT was the beginning of Apostles and Prophets why do you find this strange? Did not Christ come to set up His Kingdom and give the Keys to Peter? Why do you ignore the sealing powers mentioned, where do you as a Church seal that which is on Earth so it can be recored in Heaven?
Did not the Apostles cast lots, (vote) as too who would be the next approved apostle?
Solid LDS, The Keys were given to the Church, not just Peter. The Church brings forgiveness of sins and eternal life with God through preaching Christ crucifed for our sins. God creates faith in our hearts through His Word, that Jesus is our Savior, we are given the covenental sign and seal of Baptism as our Savior directed. Ultimately, all of Scripture points us to Jesus on the Cross for our sins – the Old Testament sacrifices looked forward to his, Paul boasted that he sought to preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified – our baptism points us to Christ as we are buried with him in his death and washed by his blood. The Lords Supper – the bread and wine/body and blood is centered on Christ’s death on the cross. Oh yes, we have the keys of the kingdom, the forgiveness of sins that comes only through Jesus completed work for us – we look to Him only for salvation and not our works which are nothing but filthy rags.
Mormons fail time after time to understand the scriptures. Jesus does speak to his church today, he does so HIMSELF. He told us how he would do it. This is why we don’t need “spokesman” for God, because God speaks to us directly himself.
“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away,” says Jesus in John 1:16, as he warns them of coming troubles, and that “They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.” (vs.3). But he tells them not to be troubled, because “it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (vs.7) .
Jesus then says that when “the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (13-15)
Who is the Comforter/Advocate? It is Jesus:
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” (John 14:16-18)
We don’t need Mormon “prophets”, we have Jesus, the Comforter._johnny
” The Keys were given to the Church, not just Peter” quote 4fivesolas
Really, “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I will give thee, Peter
and thou (Peter) shalt bind
thou (Peter) shalt loose
Could you provide any scripture that shows the Church Received the Keys (authority)?
Grindael,
Jesus was talking about the Holy Ghost being the Comforter and Advocate in these scriptures, else why did He say He would “ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever – the Spirit of truth.”
If Jesus was the Advocate spoken about here then why did He say “another”?
And then in another verse you referenced Jesus said “Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you.” So how can Jesus go away if He is the Advocate spoken about here? Again this Advocate is the Holy Ghost.
Dale,
A vague idea from the OT and forcing a parallel in the NT? With God appointing 12 and then 70 men to help Moses and Jesus appointing 12 and then 70 men to assist Him and to take over when He left – I don’t think that’s forcing a parallel, just observing a pattern that confirms the scripture that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
2) The apostasy does not assume that they didn’t have students, it just assumes that they did not pass their authority onwards. We see in the NT where someone else was chosen after Judas’ death to fill his position, but after that there is no record (that I know of) of another person being chosen to fill positions on the death of an apostle.
For me, Jesus taught that His house is a house of order, all 12 Apostles were named throughout the NT when called and after, then the person that filled Judas’ position was named as well. To me record keeping of this authority and it passing on makes sense so we know who has received it through proper channels – but that’s my thoughts.
Dale (contd)
3) OK, I see your question. The Nephites left Jerusalem 600 years BC. Names and places could have changed throughout that period of time and the Garden of Gethsemane may not have existed then. The BoM does teach that Jesus’ suffering for our sins and death and resurrection are all essential to our salvation, but the name of the place He suffered is irrelevant to our salvation, just the fact that He did suffer is. So I see no reason to expect the name of the garden to be written in the BoM, but that Jesus would suffer should be, and it is.
6) David Whitmar said JS was a FALLEN prophet, NOT a false prophet. Big difference. It means that David acknowledges that JS at one point in time was a true prophet but fell because of something he did or didn’t do. So this still supports his (ie David) testimony about the Gold Plates. And if he didn’t deny seeing the plates then the plates can still be real despite JS being a fallen prophet. We teach about and name the people from the 11 witnesses that went apostate but there’s no point in teaching what they said or did after that as it does not affect the church.
Solid LDS,
First please respond to this Scripture:
“In many and various ways, God spoke to His people of old by the prophets. But now in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son.” Hebrews 1:1-2a
Jesus is our Prophet, Priest, and King.
Here is a Scripture which clearly indicates the authority of the Church-
Matthew 18:18 – 20 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
Two or three believers gathered in his name – clearly this indicates the authority of the Church, any Christian, not just Peter.
Here is where Christ gives the authority of the keys – every Christian has been given the authority to share the Good News of the Gospel. Whenever a troubled sinner share his burden with us, we can remind him of Christ’s death on the cross and what it accomplished for him – the forgiveness of sins:
John 20:22 – 23
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Ralph,
1) You’ve brought up some food for thought, but I’m not convinced these princes were apostles because the term is not used. Did they act like apostles? For example, did they ever confirm Moses via vote?
How about Elijah? Nephi? Lehi? Did they have 12 apostles too? Solid mentions how the apostles cast lots, but they did so to elect a peer–not a prophet. In addition, some prophets like Anna were female, but the LDS Church prevents this. Why is it that the LDS are quick to mention parallels but ignore contrasts?
2) You’re assuming the Apostles did teach people, but they neglected to share key aspects of faith. Why would they “forget” to pass on authority? Can you please see how ridiculous that is?
3) If it’s not important where Christ suffered, why do the LDS belittle the cross and favor the garden? Why strive to “correct” this at all?
6) I stated FALLEN prophet, but you are demonstrating exactly what I find frustrating. All you care about is that David Whitmer died proclaiming the plates were real. You’re leaving out HALF his testimony–that Smith was a FALLEN prophet of the Lord. Do you really not see that as selective sharing?
I think that’s exactly what investigators have the right to know. You say Whitmer’s admission that Smith is a fallen prophet does not affect the church. I think it 100% does. You can’t hide things like that and then expect people to trust you.
Dale,
If you reread my original answer about Moses and his assistants, I mentioned that the 12 were princes of the people, one from each tribe to help rule Israel. I didn’t say they were apostles. I did mention that at that point in time Israel was a theocracy with Moses as the prophet and leader (ultimately God was the ruler but He did this through Moses). These days (and we teach in Jesus’ time), the 12 apostles are more of a religious calling as the church cannot be a theocracy. Regardless, it is still a pattern we can see in the OT and NT.
When Elijah was prophet, the people had rejected God as their ruler through a prophet, they had asked for a king instead. Read through the Bible about the selection of Saul and David as kings and how God did not want it but allowed them to have a king anyway. So at that point in timethe 12 were not needed.
I don’t know exactly the role of a female prophet in the OT, but we LDS do have them as well these days. Look at the female missionaries, they’re prophets. Just to make the distinction, there are 2 prophets in the LDS church – 1 Prophet – the head of the church on this earth and mouthpiece of God; 2 prophet – someone with a testimony that Jesus is The Christ by the Holy Ghost. So these female prophets in the OT could be just that, which fits in with the LDS teachings.
2) I am not saying they neglected/forgot to pass the authority onwards. It is up to Jesus who is called into that position, so maybe they were told not to by God.
3) We teach that His suffering started in the Garden of Gethsemane and this was where the majority of His physical suffering occurred (if I understand correctly what I have been taught). He went through much suffering afterwards as well including on the cross. We teach that on the cross He suffered separation from Heavenly Father which was spiritual and caused Him great agony. But the whole Atonement started in the garden and finished after He was resurrected. This is what we focus on, whereas most Traditional Christians focus on the cross only and do not really mention the resurrection or anything that occurred beforehand, at least from my experience.
6) Sorry Dale, but you did say ”You see his witness that Smith was a false prophet as a separate issue.”
I don’t think you understand, David Whitmar went apostate before he made the comment about JS. That is now his opinion, it does not make it true or false. So why does it matter that it is not taught if it occurred after he left the church? But despite going apostate and making derogatory comments about the church and JS, he still unconditionally stood by his testimony that the gold plates were real. Why would he do that if he thought the rest of it was going south? Why not just say that JS was a fallen prophet and that the gold plates did not exist? That would have put an end to much speculation wouldn’t it? But no, he said that JS was a fallen prophet but the gold plates did exist. Makes it ring a little more true about the gold plates to me.
Ralph, in my original post I said FALLEN. I must have accidentally typed FALSE later on. It was a typo.
If David Whitmer was an apostate why is it significant that he stated the plates were real at all. Don’t you see? You have a tendency to throw-out any questionable evidence against the Church.
Investigators are never told that Whitmer said Joseph was a FALLEN Prophet, but they are encouraged to praise him as a valid witness to the BOM. All Mormons do this, and then they can’t understand why you don’t trust them. On one hand you praise Whitmer while discounting his testimony on the other. Take him at his WHOLE word or at least give people the chance to make up their own minds.
Martin Harris also said he saw the plates with “spiritual eyes” but that doesn’t matter either. Anything other than “the Plates were real=the church is true” is put in the “doesn’t matter” category.
Why do you hide so much information from investigators and then get angry when they have the gaul to read about it?
Dale, you made some great rebuttals to Ralph. The fact that Mormon authorities have not
been open enough with some aspects of their history is not lost on many LDS.
4fivesolas, you laid out the truth of Jesus /prophet/authority , clearly. May the Mormon
people come to see Jesus for who He is and that they don’t need the spiritual guidance that
Mormon prophets and apostles have given them.
Ralph,
It’s not hard to explain the Advocate. Jesus was one advocate in his bodily form, He was another Advocate as the Holy Spirit. As John Explains:
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Unless I (in the flesh) go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be IN you. I will not leave you as orphans; I WILL COME TO YOU.
Anyone who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am IN the Father, and that the Father is IN me? And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and BE WITH YOU FOREVER— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be IN you. I will not leave you as orphans; I WILL COME TO YOU.
Before long, the world WILL NOT SEE ME ANY MORE (in my body), but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day (when you receive the comforter) you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one WHO LOVES ME will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them AND SHOW MYSELF TO THEM.”
This is perfectly clear. God is ONE, the Trinity. _johnny
David Whitmer stayed true to his BOM experience, because he honestly thought he “saw” an angel and the plates. He said he saw them with “spiritual eyes”. He convinced himself that this “vision” was real. This is not too hard of a concept to grasp. David Whitmer’s testimony varied as to the objective versus the subjective nature of the experience, but he also spoke of the angel and gold plates in visionary terms. In 1885 he was interviewed by Zenas Gurley. Gurley asked if Whitmer knew that the plates were real metal. Whitmer said that he did not touch or handle them. He was then asked if the table they were on was literal wood or if the whole thing was a like a vision. Whitmer replied that the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the vision, in the glory of God (Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885.).
Whitmer had his reputation on the line in relation to this testimony. They all did. It was much easier for him to say “fallen” rather than “false”. If Whitmer is so credible as to his book of Mormon experience, then he must be taken as just as credible when he says that Smith was a fallen prophet, for he states that God revealed that to him, the same as with the BOM plates, so this creates quite a quandary. Which God of Whitmer’s is one to believe? The one who told him Smith was fallen, or the one who told him the BOM was true. _johnny
Keys are simply authority to “bind” and “loose”. This authority was given not only to Peter, but to all the disciples. In the account under scrutiny here, we read:
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Sin = death = hades/hell. Two Chapters later, we read:
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” (Matthew 18)
Move on to John 20:
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The authority to bind and loose was inextricably joined with the possession of the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Those keys belonged to the kingdom and allowed entrance into it just as keys belong to a door and allow one to unlock it, thereby allowing entrance into the particular locale. Peter received the keys by believing and confessing Jesus to be the Messiah, the Son of God. The confession of Jesus as the Messiah is the key to entrance into the kingdom.
The words translated “bind” and “loose” are from the Greek deo and lyo, which are themselves translations of the Aramaic asar and sera. This was the Jewish formula for excommunication and reinstatement. With this historical meaning in mind, then, Peter was given the authority to bar entrance into, or allow entrance into the kingdom based upon one’s confession of faith in Jesus Christ as the Christ, the Son of the living God. Peter did just that throughout his ministry. He allowed entrance into the kingdom to the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost who believed his message (Acts 2:38-41), and Cornelius’ household because of their faith (Acts 10). He barred access into the kingdom to the Jewish leaders (Acts 3) and Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8) because of their unbelief and unpure hearts.
These keys were given to all who believe in Christ, for he said, “where two or three are gathered IN MY NAME, there I am with you.” The authority of the church (those who gather in His Name) is not to decide what to do and then have God back up their decision. The authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10)._johnny
The keys of the kingdom of heaven, conferred upon Peter by the Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 16:19) and restored to the earth in recent times (D&C 110) by the prophet Elijah, who was custodian of this power anciently (see Mal. 4:5-6), include the authority to “bind and loose” on earth, with corresponding effect in heaven. Currently this power is held and exercised only by the president of the church and others upon whom it is conferred by him or at his direction. Once a sealing ordinance is performed, only the First Presidency can approve a change in sealing status, including the cancellation of a sealing (General Handbook of Instructions, 6-5 through 6-7).
Why was Peter given the Keys of the Kingdom, because with in those key was the Melchizedek Priesthood. Keys that gave him authority to baptize and to act with Power in Christ name.
To seal for eternity, married couples and children to their parents. Peter held the keys along with all the Apostles to minister in the affairs of this new church that Christ was setting up correctly and would be the same example the restored church would follow again in the last days.
No where does Christ proclaim the Keys were given to the members of the Church, but that only the authority (Priesthood) was given to those who are called.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14
For a priesthood holder to exercise ecclesiastical power or authority, Latter Day Saints believe that a priesthood holder must have a specific set of keys or be authorized by one who holds those keys.
Who hold all the Keys? Like Peter, we believe that only the President or Prophet, Seer and Revelator holds all the Keys.
Continued.
President Joseph Fielding Smith explained: “These keys are the right of presidency; they are the power and authority to govern and direct all of the Lord’s affairs on earth. Those who hold them have power to govern and control the manner in which all others may serve in the priesthood. All of us may hold the priesthood, but we can only use it as authorized and directed so to do by those who hold the keys” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, 98; or Ensign, July 1972, 87).
So the Orthodox Christian Church does error when proclaiming that the Keys are given to the Church when in fact the Church (members) are given the Priesthood only by those who hold the Keys as did Peter. To claim that the scriptures point to anything other then those who are first appointed to be Christ Spokesperson here on the earth is a false belief and mocks God by claiming authority never given. Problematic is that Christians act in His name, but have no keys or authority.
Solid,
I have to disagree with you on the meaning of Matt 22:14. The verse is the last line of the parable of the great banquet and is saying many are called to the kingdom, but few will be worthy. I don’t see how it ties to priesthood authority.
For Mormons D&C section 121 pretty much explains that the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven,
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
Priesthood is not a given authority because of membership, it is a ordination by another who holds the rights of that priesthood because of worthiness. Christians claim authority but cannot state how that authority is given, they error in assuming to take it upon themselves.