This should come as no surprise.
Researcher Helen Radkey has recently discovered records in the Mormon Church’s genealogical database indicating that proxy baptisms for deceased holocaust victims continues, despite promises—and even formal agreements—consented to by the LDS Church.
The latest controversy is over the posthumous baptisms of the parents of famous holocaust victims’ advocate Simon Wiesenthal. The Jewish human rights center named for Mr. Wiesenthal issued a statement that clearly expresses frustration with the LDS Church:
“We are outraged that such insensitive actions continue in the Mormon Temples. Throughout his life, Simon Wiesenthal especially revered his beloved mother who was deported and murdered at Belzec death camp in 1942. Such actions make a mockery of the many meetings with the top leadership of the Mormon Church dating back to 1995 that focused on the unwanted and unwarranted posthumous baptisms of Jewish Victims of the Nazi Holocaust,” said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and who participated in many of the high-level meetings between Jews with Mormon officials.
“We note that these rites were undertaken and confirmed in Mormon Temples in Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. Further meetings with Church leaders on this matter are useless. The only way such insensitive practices would finally stop is if Church leaders finally decided to change their practices and policies on posthumous baptisms, a move which this latest outrage proves that they are unwilling to do. We are grateful to activist Helen Radkey for exposing the latest outrage.”
According to The Salt Lake Tribune, the “Mormon church apologize[d] for baptisms of Wiesenthal’s parents,” though an explicit statement of “We’re sorry” was not reported.
LDS officials in Salt Lake City were quick to apologize Monday, saying that the Utah-based faith “sincerely regret[s] that the actions of an individual member … led to the inappropriate submission of these names,” which were “clearly against the policy of the church.”
“We consider this a serious breach of our protocol,” spokesman Scott Trotter said in a statement, “and we have suspended indefinitely this person’s ability to access our genealogy records.”
So after 15 years of broken promises to the Jewish people, the Mormon Church regrets that its protocol was breached. I doubt that this brings much comfort to those deeply wounded by the continuing LDS baptisms of their beloved deceased family members, especially when considered in light of a 2007 statement made by Church spokesman Mark Tuttle. When responding to reports that the Church had “apologized” for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Mr. Tuttle clarified, “We don’t use the word ‘apology.’ We used ‘profound regret.'”
As I’ve said before, proxy Mormon baptism of Jewish Holocaust victims is a very complicated issue. I understand the position of the Jewish community in regards to their deceased ancestors, and I understand the position of the LDS community in regards to their perceived religious duty. There is no easy solution that will fulfill the wishes of everyone. But one thing seems clear: When the Mormon Church makes promises it will not or cannot keep, in the words of Rabbi Cooper, “This wound remains open.”
The promise to the Jewish community about baptism is one empty promise coming out of Mormonism. Another–one that I find deeply troubling–is this: All men (in the company of their spouses) may follow the same path to Godhood as the God of this world, Heavenly Father, has done; the same as all Gods have done before Him.
“We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share” (James Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 430).
“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 3:93).
“Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-347).
According to the Bible, this is a promise that cannot be kept (e.g., see Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 46:9; Malachi 3:6; Psalm 90:2)–and its failure will cost those who trust in it their very souls.
I plead with those who cling to Mormonism’s empty promises to turn from them and instead place your faith in the One True God–the One who promises eternal life to all who trust in Him (John 3:16). With full confidence, place your faith in the One whose promises cannot fail.
For all the promises of God find their Yes in Him. That is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for His glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20)
fred,
I am following what you are saying. I also know why you are saying it. Check out this link: http://www.lds.org/study/topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng , this is the LDS church’s view of the Journal of discourses. Notice it says: “The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1854 and 1886 in England.”
My question to you is if these were written down wrong and published in confusion, why would the leaders and prophets use these as doctrine and teaching tools? Why would President George Q. Cannon say that the Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“??? Do you think that Brigham Young didn’t read them after they were published? He could have corrected the wrong doctrine then right? Couldn’t the others have corrected their doctrine and speeches as well?
Where are these Journal of Discourses? Why aren’t they being sold by the church now? They were meant for our day as well: ” After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)
The LDS church does quote out of them in some of their teaching manuals, so why should what they quote be believed? It’s either all true and correct or it can’t be trusted. Grindael has shown you at great length the truth about the Journal of Discourses. They were approved before they went to print. Stop taking the church’s word for it and research yourself.
Oh my Kate!
“Stop taking the church’s word for it and research yourself.”
Now you’ve gone too far!. Didn’t you know that the LDS is the repository of all that is right, true and beautiful? That the LDS church would shade or cover-up the truth is way beyond what the freds can even begin to imagine. Pull that card out and the entire house of cards that is the LDS church collapses.
The human mind will not allow a true believer to even consider that what they hold near and dear is not true. That’s why Mormons have that malady called “shaken faith syndrome”.
When LDS folks stumble across the truth that their church has gone great lengths to hide or obfuscate or alibi, their first reaction is to deny it. It’s a psychological convention that insulates the true believer from the pain they would feel if they let the thought germinate. Think of it. The church not being true?
It’s the devotion to the organizational LDS church that’s the problem for the freds. If they were really interested in God and the Lord Jesus Christ they’d follow the Spirit and be reconciled to Him no matter what the cost in human terms.
These folks groove on Mormonism. I was listening to John Dehlin on a pod cast for some group called Mormon Expressions. It’s interesting how much some LDS members, who long ago gave up on the idea that the LDS church is true, still enjoy the culture and the people. They know it’s all bogus but they still enjoy hanging out. Others of course get so angry once they find the truth that they don’t want to go any where near the Mormon program.
Thankfully the anger subsides after a while and they move on. Unfortunately many of them become atheists.
This whole issue with the JofD and Fred’s argument is silly. When I was looking at the
claims and teachings of Mormon apostles the Jof D was readily quoted from in Ensign
and other Church publications and even in Conf. sermons. Why would’nt they be ?
Are they perfect ? No . Are they accurate as to conveying the doctrine of those whose
preaching are contained therein ? Yes. Like I said a few days ago , there will be a time
in the future when the Ensign mag or Conference sermons will also be bound in volumes
and promoted to LDS as reliable spiritual guidance . Trouble is though that 50-100
years from now many of the doctrines in these bound volumes will be either denied or
down-played , because like the JofD today, they will have been dumped , considered as
questionable spiritual guidance . The reason for this is that Mormon apostles , despite
their claim to function as the one reliable channel of spiritual truth from Jesus ,
they have only exhibited an unstable pattern of spiritual guidance on many important
truths . [ in the near future Mormon apostles will probably be recommending the
worship of Heavenly Mother as a member of the Godhead, polygamy will allowed, and
perhaps hunting will be considered a reason to deny a Temple recommend ! ] .
I’ve been listening to some podcasts on a site called Mormon Expressions. It’s an interesting set of folks out there. I’ll let the listener characterize the group but what I find interesting is their perspective on Mormonism, Mormon apologists and the Mormon spin in general.
I’m listening to one now where they are taking apart the top 10 @nti-Mormon statements of 2011. Anyway, one of the points considered @nti-Mormon was that Mormons believe they will become gods and rule their own planets. This was identified as an @nti-Mormon statement. These folks were pointing out that Mormonism does teach this. They went on to say that Mormons just don’t like the way those outside the church say it.
The reality is that Mormons use a different vocabulary to, in essence, describe exactly that process i.e. becoming gods and ruling planets. They also pointed out how the “manuals” from which lessons are taught, avoid the becoming gods and planet ruling lingo because it does sound and is, preposterous.
So here we have the JoD. It has all of the information in it that identifies Mormonism as it was taught and believed at the time it was written. It’s now uncomfortable to modern day Mormons. They are, however, stuck with it.
Saying that it isn’t accurately portraying what the writter/speaker intended is just more Mormon weaseling. One would think that these Mormons would catch on to the fact that their religious guides have to continually make excuses for and cover-up past information.
And this is suppose to be the one true church? I don’t think so!
falcon,
I know, I know, I’m horrible for suggesting such a thing. fred accused me of only trying to prove the Church wrong and said I do not care how I do it. What fred doesn’t understand is how woven into Mormonism I was from birth until age 40. He doesn’t understand the heartache and struggles I had trying to research to prove the church TRUE. I would have given anything for it to be true, but it doesn’t take long to find the true and living Christ of the Bible, God incarnate. Once that happened, there was no going back for me 🙂
Mike,
You are right, the whole JoD argument is silly. Anyone can read how it came about. How can everything be written down wrong or not really what was said or meant? This excuse is used for more than just the JoD. I guess those Mormon leaders shaping the LDS church just didn’t present themselves well, just like the leaders now won’t be believed 100 years from now as you say.
grindael says: – February 21, 2012 at 12:44 am – (Obviously Fred, you don’t know anything about how the JOD were published. I advise studying the FACTS, before you speak and judge others. (Just sayin’))
After taking the time to separate the facts you presented from your conclusions, you will notice that you completely missed what I was saying and the facts continue to back up what I said.
I know you will not want to believe this, and you probably do not want to take the time and effort to see why what I say is true, but it must be said.
Fred
Kate says: – February 21, 2012 at 7:35 am (Where are these Journal of Discourses? Why aren’t they being sold by the church now?)
I just gave away a copy I bought way back in the 70’s since I now have an electronic version. {My eyes have trouble with the little type in the books}
Also, it is free on the internet to anyone who wants to take the effort to find it.
(Notice it says: “The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1854 and 1886 in England.”)
Thanks for helping to show why grindael’s conclusions do not match the facts.
fred
fproy,
You may think falcon is offensive, but you’re posts are condescending, unhelpful, and completely opposed to honest discussion. You direct without giving. You don’t answer anything. Your posts are not making any headway to show us mistaken. You don’t show any sign of really wanting to help, just deny and tell us to do the work. You are actually not representing LDS or Christ well here at all. I’m not quite sure why we should continue responding to you.
If we want our statements about LDS to reach you, they can reach you even if they are not direct responses to you. You can be treated as a ghost. We can post, you can read, (if you continue to post uselessly we can ignore it) and may God help you.
We are, in fact, concerned for you, fproy, but you are a wall. If you can read, then maybe God can use our indirect posts to help you. But talking to a wall and waiting for it to answer, really answer, is a waste of time.
At best, you are a catalyst to discussion. But we’ve been able to discuss just fine before your started posting.
In fact, I do not expect you to reply, really answer, this post. This is just my attempt at being honest and treating you like a real person, not a idiot, baby, or simple annoyance. It is also a suggestion for my fellow commentors to consider.
I know you are perfectly capable of real, honest discussion. As far as I am concerned, when you are willing to do so, then we can engage you again.
This is how part of me wants to treat your posts…
… But, then there is another (probably better) part of me that hopes that, if we persevere in trying to discuss issues with you, you will see that we are sincerely concerned about you. Maybe your heart will soften a bit, and maybe, something will get through, and God will bless you with His True Son and Freedom.
So I guess we’ll all decide whether we want to engage with you or not. I suspect I will continue to attempt to do so, but I’ll take a time-out for now and let the others continue. When others get weary, I or another will continue the good fight.
May God bless everyone here, LDS and Christian, with the fortitude to continually seek Him. Thank You God, that when we inevitably fail to truly seek You, You are the True Seeker and Finder of our souls. Thank You, Father, Abba.
fproy,
Man you’re not going to give it up no matter how much evidence is provided to clearly show that you are wrong in your perspective.
This is so typical. I’ve seen it time and again over the years I have posted here. A Christian will give a well researched and sourced response and the Mormon will blow it off with some simple one-liner and continue down the same path. There is absolutely no intellectual gravitas, or spiritual insight, just childish responses.
This is the problem with people locked in a religious system that warps their thinking. It is a spiritual as well as an intellectual brain-lock. My stance has always been that the freds serve us well here because they act as a foil upon which we can present the truth to the LDS folks who come here to read and thus find a path out of the LDS system.
The Bible talks a lot about the unregenerated spirit and the fact that our battle isn’t against flesh and blood but the principalities in the heavenlies that war against the revealed truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is abundantly clear with Mormonism with it’s faux “restored” gospel and false prophets and apostles.
So folks it’s important to realize the spirit that’s got fred in its grip.
Fred,
LOL.
Spartacus said “May God bless everyone here, LDS and Christian, with the fortitude to continually seek Him. Thank You God, that when we inevitably fail to truly seek You, You are the True Seeker and Finder of our souls. Thank You, Father, Abba.”
Amen
grindael,
Your last post to fred is perfect. There comes a point where you scrub the mission. I get it.
Spartacus,
I sense your frustration having been down that road countless times. I get double frustrated when I keep trying, through research and well thought out presentations, to make the point abundantly clear and it’s totally missed. I’ve had Mormon posters whom I’ve had to “shroud” because I’ve taken something about as far as I can and I sense they enjoy running me around the mulberry bush just for sport.
I remember times where Andy Watson would stay up to all hours of the night, going through all of his documents, writing what amounts to a major position paper and the response from the LDS posters is like trying to getting a child to eat their peas.
In his excellent book, “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately”, former Mormon elder Jim Spencer characterizes the different types of Mormons you might encounter in a Christian apologetic ministry. It’s very helpful for several reasons including being able to put the matter into perspective and reduce the exasperation factor.
We have to remember that a Mormon’s “knowing” is based on what they feel was a legitimate spiritual experience which confirmed an answer to a sincere prayer. Once a Mormon has this “knowing” reinforced by the supernatural, nothing else is to be attended to. It’s just Satan trying to draw you away from God’s one true church. That’s why Mormons go to such ridiculous lengths with nonsensical explanations that make no sense.
The fact that so many Mormons are either inactive or formally leaving the LDS church tells us that this spiritual knowing can only hold up so long. At some point the person has to face the reality that the spiritual experience isn’t a true test.
spartacus says: – February 22, 2012 at 12:37 am – (You may think falcon is offensive, but you’re posts are condescending, unhelpful, and completely opposed to honest discussion. You direct without giving. You don’t answer anything. Your posts are not making any headway to show us mistaken. You don’t show any sign of really wanting to help, just deny and tell us to do the work.)
Thank you for reconfirming that you’ll do not want to do your own work; you’ll just want it spoon fed to you. You do a good job of denying anything I say, so I tell you that you need to do your own work so that when you find the LDS Church to be true, you cannot deny it.
(This is just my attempt at being honest and treating you like a real person, not a idiot, baby, or simple annoyance. It is also a suggestion for my fellow commentors to consider.)
It makes me happy to know that at least one person here understands the way folks here use this mob control tactic to keep others from thinking too much. With falcon as an example, you may decide that being one of the “fred’s” would be better.
fred
Sharon;
My I also use “@nti-Mormon” or don’t I get a pass on the rules like falcon does?
fred
[Fred, on the Mormon N-word the Mormon Coffee comment policy states: “Use of the pejorative term…is not allowed, nor any other personal accusations of hatred.” Falcon’s use of the term as he was referencing a podcast he had listened to was neither pejorative (i.e., expressing contempt or disapproval) nor a personal accusation of hatred (on falcon’s part). In allowing falcon’s comment to stand it was the spirit of the law that was considered, rather than the letter of the law. This consideration is, of course, at the moderator’s discretion.
Please send all questions regarding moderation concerns via email rather than posting in the comment forum. As this has been requested of you more than once in the past, Fred, any moderation question posted as a comment in the future will be removed.]
Fred, Your lucky I am not allowed to fully speak my mind, otherwise I would and you would cry.
You say Mob control, Give me a break, You could care less about the truth and I dont believe for one minute your really did your homework and looked into the facts about Mormonism.
I find it funny how the prophets who spoke in the JoD said things that were stated as FACTS, DOCTRINE, or things along that line, and people back in the day believed the prophets. Yet Mormons today deny these things and say they are wrong. You and other come along and say these things were written down wrong or changed. Yet Even in the last 50 years your church has used quotes from the JoD, so is it that when these quotes are used they are correct and everything else wrong? How come their is quotes by your church that are used and it’s good, but when we use them they are wrong?
Then like Spartacus said, You avoid questions and only ask them. He was right and you dont like it, Like I said, if dodge ball was a sport that could be played in the Olympics you LDS would win gold every year and you would win with a clean sweep where your team would never take a hit.
Rick B says: – February 22, 2012 at 9:23 am – (Fred, Your lucky I am not allowed to fully speak my mind, otherwise I would and you would cry.)
You make it hard not to play your game of “I am better then you are”. I find that those who do it tend to fall into the need to defend their position instead of being open to the work necessary to learn something new.
(Like I said, if dodge ball was a sport that could be played in the Olympics you LDS would win gold every year and you would win with a clean sweep where your team would never take a hit.)
By spitting out stuff like this you can “feel” good. Like any good pitchman, you are selling the sizzle without the meat. Many people are deceived by this action, and some even endup thinking that the sizzle is really the meat.
fred
falcon says: – February 22, 2012 at 7:52 am – (I get double frustrated when I keep trying, through research and well thought out presentations, to make the point abundantly clear and it’s totally missed.)
Then you should understand my feelings when you use your shot gun method of confusion to keep from addressing what I have been talking about.
fred
Fred, Put your big boy pants on, and just start answering questions. I am going to do as spartcus said, and I have said what he said about others that posted here. You can say what you want, but I dont see you answering questions, you avoid them and the proof is on you to prove your church true. I as others can show tons of evidence that it is false, even point out lack of evidence, and if all you can do is reply with, Nope the evidence is out their and I have seen it, yet refuse to share it with us, or claim you did by saying things like, The JoD was corrupted and hope thats good enough evidence, while not explaining how you believe they are wrong while your prophets quote from them is not evidence.
Or like I said, the Bible mentions people and places from thousands of years ago that we have evidence existed, yet the BoM mentions the tower of babel so it dates it’s self back almost as long as the Bible, yet their is no evidence for this or the places it mentions, and the apostles and Jesus never mention BoM people or places, yet you never reply to these things, and if you do, your reply is a Genesis 1:2 reply, with out form or substance.
People are not dumb, they can see for themselves your lack of honest debate and replys. I am done with you and will reply to topics and others, maybe even address points for people to have evidence of things you say, but as to talking with you, I’m done unless you can start answering questions honestly and not with vague, veiled reply’s.
Fred said
Fred, Just to set the record straight, I never said I was better than you, I’m an evil, wicked sinner, that admits before I knew Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I hated the world and did in fact try and kill some people.
I also believe the Bible that none of us, are good, Not me, not you, no one. The only difference between us is I am saved by Grace, not of works, where as your thinking your saved by your works so you may boast.
Also to sit here and say I am not open to learning anything new is so far from the truth, I never made it past the tenth grade and took 6 try’s to get my GED. Well I went back to college and earned an associates degree with a 3.64 GPA. Then all the reading and research of Mormonism I do, shows I am open to learning. You might think I am wrong in what I know about your church, but Not only do I look into it, but I dont see You or other LDS coming here and doing as the bible says, and correcting me in love and teaching me, Just telling me I am wrong and telling me to search the evidence my self.
fred,
“Shotgun method of confusion.”
You’re the one who is confused fred. Everyone else seems to be tuned into what I’m getting at. The problem is you’ve got a limited “set” that you’re dealing with. You live in the LDS box and that’s your entire frame of reference. That’s why the best you can do is provide short comments with no real depth. That’s the world of Mormonism. It’s made up of pithy little sayings and trite slogans. You base your testimony, not on careful study, but on a feeling you suppose you had in response to a prayer. So after that, it doesn’t really matter what evidence is provided that would sink your LDS ship.
So it’s the same old rat-a-tat-tat from you fred. You need to bring something of substance to the conversation.
Rick B says: – February 22, 2012 at 10:17 am – (Fred, Put your big boy pants on, and just start answering questions)
If I give you the answer you will find some reason to put down the truth.
If I get you to find the truth yourself, you will believe it.
And remember, I started out to prove the LDS Church wrong because some protestant leaders I trusted said it was wrong. They were wrong, but like you they did not want to hear about it.
(the BoM mentions the tower of babel so it dates it’s self back almost as long as the Bible, yet their is no evidence for this or the places it mentions)
I see you do not keep up with current affairs. But be careful though, only some of the places mentioned in the BOM that have been found lately are false.
(People are not dumb, they can see for themselves your lack of honest debate and replys)
And again, you as well as others have to tell them how dumb I am so they will not want to take my advice. Ya’ll say it is wrong for Mormons to group together for support, yet ya’ll have a stricter group that you must stay in step with.
(Fred, Just to set the record straight, I never said I was better than you, I’m an evil, wicked sinner, that admits before I knew Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I hated the world and did in fact try and kill some people.)
For this time I will play your game, I was a Sothern Protestant at the time the Klan was an active arm of Sothern Protested community. The KKK was an evangelical origination.
fred
Rick B says: – February 22, 2012 at 12:01 pm – (only difference between us is I am saved by Grace, not of works, where as your thinking your saved by your works so you may boast.)
I see you buy into what outsiders say we believe, if you had taken the time to study it out for yourself, you would have found it to be false. It has been a long time since I have been a Protestant, but I will try to put this faith/works into words from my youth so you may understand it better.
As with all people here on earth, we are saved by Grace from the death of the grave. After being resurrected by Grace, we will meet with St. Peter at the Pearly Gates to be judged and assigned according to our works to the position we will praise God from.
Getting to heaven is the same as what I was taught when I was a Protestant, and Heavenly Father has seen fit to tell us more about what happens to us after we get there.
fred
Sharon; – ([Fred, on the Mormon N-word the Mormon Coffee comment policy states: “Use of the pejorative term…is not allowed, nor any other personal accusations of hatred.”)
Just a thought, have you noticed how the word “Mormon” is used as yall’s N word.
Lots of pejorative feeling and lots of hatred dressed up as “Christian love”.
fred
Fred quotes me saying
Then Fred says
Fred has claimed over and over, he has done his research and looked into the facts, he then claims we dont. So since you look into the facts and we dont, so you say, back up this statement with evidence that claims what you claim from the Bible or the BoM. You and I both know you cannot. I have read both and neither teach what you say. Then when you cannot provide it from the Bible or the BoM please explain in YOUR OWN WORDS why it is not in their.
If you cannot or will not, then let me go on recorded and state, You are not being 100 percent honest as you claim and are not really seeking out the facts, because if you were this would be so easy to prove and show me the evidence.
Fred, I’m sorry to confuse you, you said
This statement is what I want you to support from scripture and if you cannot then my above statement remains the same.
fred,
If all you have left is to whine and complain about the Christian posters and claim that the word “Mormon” is used somehow as a slur, I think you need to take your one trick pony act somewhere else. In your latest post you project all sorts of nasty intentions into the motives of the other posters here.
I knew this is where we’d end-up with you because I’ve witnessed it time and again over the years on this blog with other Mormons. It’s so predictable. You have nothing to add of substance, you’re backed into a corner so now it’s the persecution card.
I, for one, am voting you off the island. I would suggest that the other posters do the same.
Falcon,
I have said many times over the years that various LDS should be voted off the island as it were, but sadly that wont happen simply because they claim to have answers but then provide none.
So I guess since Fred said this,
I guess he can put his money where his mouth is, so to speak. We all know this cannot be backed up or supported from the Bible or the BoM, so since it cannot then he cannot prove this, so I guess he will be exposed for the fraud he really is. Also we know that JS said,
And since Fred cannot back up what he said from Scripture, I will question if he really is saved since he is ignorant. Also I will prophecy Fred will come back and accuse me of something and give reasons why he cannot answer this question. But then when you cannot support your teaching from scripture, what are you left with? Simply accusing people and dodging the issue.
Rick B says: – February 22, 2012 at 7:43 pm – (with evidence that claims what you claim from the Bible or the BoM)
Typical of your folks, you want to limit God. Heavenly Father still talks to us today by guiding His Church through His Prophet.
(Then when you cannot provide it from the Bible or the BoM please explain in YOUR OWN WORDS why it is not in their.)
Remember, I was using “Protestant talk” to try to explain what is very clear in “Mormon talk” One day you complain that we use the same words as you do to mean something different, then the next day you ignore the differences and make wild claims.
I have pointed you in the right direction, but you still need to find the truth yourself. That way you cannot hide from the truth behind your little games.
fred
fred,
I believe in prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelist and pastors. I subscribe to the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts (see First Corinthians 12-14). I believe that God guides His church today through revelation and illumination and that “church” is the mystical Body of Christ, peopled by all those who have been born again by the Spirit of God through faith in the Jesus who is revealed in the sacred Scriptures.
What I don’t believe in is false prophets and that’s why I oppose Mormonism and the false church that embodies it. God has revealed to me that the BoM is false, so I have received “revelation” from Him regarding the foundation of Mormonism. I even get good spiritual feelings fred, burning in the bosom. I rather enjoy it when it happens.
So there you go fred. You’re following a false prophet and the “original” false prophet was Joseph Smith. Do you want a list of all of the prophecies and false utterances of your spiritual brain trust within Mormonism?
I would invite you to receive the gift of eternal life that God is offering you through faith in the Biblical Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. He keeps knocking at your door fred but you’re too invested in Mormonism to open that door and welcome Him in.
To those Mormons who come here and read but don’t post; check out the contrast between the Mormon god, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the difference in the gospel message of Biblical Christianity.
Kate says: – February 21, 2012 at 12:34 pm – (What fred doesn’t understand is how woven into Mormonism I was from birth until age 40. He doesn’t understand the heartache and struggles I had trying to research to prove the church TRUE)
When I left Protestantism I had no need to join an anti-Protestant group. Could you hold to your beliefs about the LDS Church if you did not have the reinforcement of others telling you it is wrong. Could you join a proChristian group and only study why you are correct to be in that group and still have your faith?
fred
falcon says: – February 23, 2012 at 9:39 am – (and the difference in the gospel message of Biblical Christianity.)
In my study of nonMormon Christians, I have found that there is more them one “Biblical Christianity”. Which one do you follow and why is it better than the others that get their revelation the same way you do?
fred
fred,
Seriously, did you not read all of my post? I couldn’t have stayed LDS if the prophet himself talked to me. It doesn’t matter what other Christians say, I don’t follow any group. I FOUND THE TRUE AND LIVING CHRIST OF THE BIBLE. Or maybe he found me? You don’t know him. No LDS person that I know actually knows Him. That’s why you don’t understand how I could leave that multi million dollar corporation. Your multi million dollar corporation teaches a false Christ. Jesus warns us in the BIBLE that this would happen. I follow Him. No one else. Your kind of thinking is because you follow a religious institution with a CEO/president at the top. I hate to break it to you fred, but Jesus didn’t die to give us a super rich religious institution, he died to give us eternal life.
I know the Journal of Discourses can be found on the internet. Where do you think I’ve studied them? My question is why isn’t the LDS church publishing these and selling them at Deseret Book or in the Church library??? Why can’t you order them out of the back of the Ensign? Can I order a set on the LDS church’s website, along with the Book of Mormon or teaching manuals? The LDS church isn’t in control of the online Journal of Discourses. Maybe they are trying to do some damage control now by putting them on their site or something, who knows. Yes, Google is a thorn in the LDS church’s side.
By the way, I agree with Spartacus. I’m done talking to you. You aren’t serious about discussion, all I see is the same tired, angry, don’t know his religion Mormon.
OK fred.
It looks like at least three of us have voted you off the island but I’m going to take one more shot at answering your question even though I’ve answered it a couple of times already. Here goes.
First of all, you’re really stuck on this idea of the one true church. Frankly that’s not even on my radar screen. It is of no interest to me; none, zero, zip. Pretty shocking, huh? I’m not looking for some building that houses a man who claims to be God’s oracle. To me that’s an automatic tip-off that the group is a religious cult of some sort with a false prophet. These groups exist all over the world and the people are getting all sorts of confirming feelings and bosom burnings.
Incidentally, there are about seventy sects of Mormonism, all claiming to have the real restored gospel and all are led by some dude claiming to be a prophet. So Mormons need to recognize that they have the same problem that they claim Christianity has.
Now to the point. I think that instead of looking to find God’s one true Church, you’d be much better off if you found the One, True God. That’s the real essence of our argument here. I’ve found God. I’ve found His Christ. He resides, through the Holy Spirit, within me and all born again believers. He has revealed Himself to me.
God’s true Church consists of all believers, people of faith, regardless of their denominational affiliation. God’s one, true Church is invisible in that you could walk into say a Lutheran church during Sunday morning services, and if God gave you the spiritual eyes with which to see, you would see those who belong to His one, true Church.
cont.
When it comes to “the church”, I follow the NT. I read it, study it, pray about it and God leads me to the answers I’m looking for. There are a basic set of doctrines that are considered “orthodox”. Beyond that there are all kinds of little distinctives that give the various denominations their “color”, “texture” and “culture”. I could care less about any of it. I can fellowship with folks of all sorts of traditions as long as they have the basics. Here are the basics which I have posted numerous times on this blog.
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. One God, three persons.
3. The Deity of Jesus-He is God.
4. The virgin birth of Jesus.
5. Jesus died for us. The blood atonement.
6. Jesus’ resurrection.
7. We are saved by grace apart from works.
8. Jesus second coming.
9. The final judgement.
fred, without the authentic Biblical Christ, you cannot be saved. I can’t make it any clearer. You need to purge yourself of this idea of a one true church and find the one true God. I relate to God one-on-one. I don’t need some religious group with some guru who claims to speak for God to lead me. I’m always ready to listen to the counsel of faithful believers who have wisdom and who can manifest the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as God intended. These folks have their names entered in the Lamb’s Book of Life regardless of where they hold denominational membership.
Fred said
You did exactly as I said you would. See Fred, The Bible does not say to point some one in the right direction. It says to give every man an answer that asks for the hope that lies with in you
1st peter 3:15. You sadly cannot do that because you have no evidence. Here is another problem with you LDS members. You tell me I am not really seeking after the truth and I play games, Yet I have sought the truth and looked deep into LDS teachings and doctrines and let me share with you exactly what I have found. I want an honest answer from you as to why these things I will show you dont contradict each other, at least in Your opinion. If you refuse I will take that to mean you have no answers and are a fraud. And no vague responses.
You said about the verse in the Bible that speaks about grace, their is more to it and you need a prophet to tell you this. So lets look at what these so called prophets have said, shall we?
JS said,
Now why is it JS can say that, yet it seems to be false if according to what you said about grace cannot be supported from the Bible or the BoM? Well lets see what BY said,
Now Fred, Why cannot I take your prophet at His word and simply believe the Bible and the verse on grace? Why do I need your interpretation or your prophets?
Now lets keep going with the prophets shall we? Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199 J.F.S. teaches,
Now We have the Prophet JS claiming the BoM is what we need, BY is claiming the Bible and JFS says the D and C. Yet you feel we need the prophets. Cont.
Now we have another prophet saying this, Ezra Taft Benson taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.
Now how is it JS can claim what he did about the BoM, yet this does not contradict what JFS or Ezra said, at least to you? To me it does, And if they cannot agree, who should I listen to or trust? Now you mentioned to Kate that we in a round about way are attacking your church, yet are you aware your prophets have said stuff like this?
How are these statements ok and not an attack on us, but when we speak about problems we see it is? That makes no sense. Also are you aware your prophets have said stuff like this, Cont
Read pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.
Joseph F Smith.
Fred, I have 2 responses in Mod jail, so read everything I wrote in context after it is posted, or it wont make sense.
So many here are doing what your prophets have said and done themselves, yet you tell us we cannot. Funny how you tell us to seek things out, then when we do, you dont like what we find.
falcon says: – February 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm – (without the authentic Biblical Christ, you cannot be saved), (I’ve found God. I’ve found His Christ. He resides, through the Holy Spirit, within me and all born again believers. He has revealed Himself to me.), (I follow the NT. I read it, study it, pray about it and God leads me to the answers I’m looking for.)
OK, so you came up with your own understanding of God’s word and all who agree with you are of “God’s one, true Church”.
Why is your understanding better than the guy next to you that does not agree with you?
fred
Good job rick.
I doubt if it will do fred any good though. It will, however, be of great help to those Mormons who know something’s not right with Mormonism and are finding their way out of the program. Mormons really have a tough time holding on to members once they do the math and see that Mormonism doesn’t add up.
I say kudos to all the Christian posters here who have shown great patience and fortitude in presenting well thought out and reasoned posts.
Rick, if you would look with an open heart, you would see that the answer to your first question is in your evidence.
“”I do not believe in putting any man’s interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way.””
Somehow you skipped right over it.
fred
Falcon,
We both know along with everyone else, Fred is a Fraud. He refuses to answer questions that he has no answers for, cannot answer most questions and does not and never has done the homework and research he claims. You cannot claim to be a seeker of the truth and claim to have all the answers, then not give them to us when asked.
The Bible says we are to love our enemy’s, and do good to those who persecute us. Fred feels we are enemy’s and we persecute him, Yet he does not love us as the Bible claims. I’m joining the band wagon and not talking to Fred anymore, unless he gets serious. And LDS wonder why we feel the way we do about them. They bring it upon themselves by the way they act and treat others. No love for the lost.
rick,
I think we’ve taken fred as far as we can. Your characterization is spot on.
Kate said “I know the Journal of Discourses can be found on the internet. Where do you think I’ve studied them? My question is why isn’t the LDS church publishing these and selling them at Deseret Book or in the Church library???”
They do sell them at Deseret Book. I’ve never had the desire to buy them since you can get them free on the net. I’m a pirate that way 🙂 I also wouldn’t have the time to read them right now since I’m trying to read through Early Christian Writings right now.
Rick B says: – February 23, 2012 at 5:08 pm – (CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false.)
Here is more evidence that The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has always told its members to study and find the truth for themselves.
(Why is it Fred, if we do this we are told by the like of you we are attacking your church? Your prophet
said to do this.)
Just going by what I see in your posts, I see that you work hard to fit the facts into your preconclusion.
fred
Fred,
Tell me something? Why do you post here? What do you offer here? I have given you enough rope to hang yourself and you did. You have been exposed as a fraud, And you and everyone knows it.
Tell me Fred, I have given you verse from the Bible, I could give more but why bother, that talk about loving your enemy, or sharing the gospel with those that ask, how have you done these things? You avoid questions when asked, or give vague reply’s. How is that loving?
I showed 3-4 prophets who could not agree on is it, The BoM, the Bible, The D and C or the prophets. Yet you did not answer how they really agree and line up. You claim we are attacking you, I showed what your scripture says and prophets said about confronting and exposing people.
Your only reply is, see this shows are church says to seek the truth. Really? Thats what the verse said, J.F.S. said expose JS if indeed he is a fraud, and you twist it to say, J.F.S. SAID seek out the truth. Even if I said I agree he said that, you would still claim we are not doing that, so you still could not agree with yourself. It these types of things that show you really do not have the love of Christ dwelling in you and are just a follower of your real father the devil. Remember, Jesus said some people are children of the devil. And you wonder why people dont trust the LDS. They have people like you avoiding questions and giving vague reply’s that dont answer the question.
Rick B says: – February 23, 2012 at 9:01 pm – (Fred is a Fraud), (Fred feels we are enemy’s and we persecute him, Yet he does not love us as the Bible claims.)
You don’t want to do the work I suggest, even when I give you pointers as to the direction you should look, so you attack my personality.
(You cannot claim to be a seeker of the truth and claim to have all the answers, then not give them to us when asked.)
I never claimed to have all the answers, but by saying that I do you can again put me down and sidestep your responsibility in learning the truth.
Just as a reminder, consider this,” we ask that you not attack other commenters as a substitute for dealing with their positions.”
And my position is and has always been that if I give you the answers you and yours will find a way to fit them into your pre-conclusions, but if you find them yourself, you will have a better chance to understand the truth.
fred
Fred, your the one wasting every ones time. Why I keep bothering with you is a mystery to me. You say I dont want to do the work you suggest. So lets see, I read LDS books, Quote LDS prophets and sources, Show they dont line up, give quotes from Bible verse, and you claim I am not doing anything. Ok, then when I ask you how these prophets and LDS sources dont contradict one another and you never reply to that, then I am told I am not doing anything. Then when I point out it is you that is in fact the one who refuses to do anything and shows your true colors, then you can only reply with, I am attacking you and not dealing with the issues. Please Fred, Your just digging a deeper hole showing your true colors. Hopefully I will find the urge to stop beating my head on the wall with wasting my time with someone who clearly refuses to deal with the truth.