A Vision of Mormonism’s Premortality

Did you know that no women chose the side of Lucifer in Mormonism’s premortal War in Heaven? Of course, this is not official LDS Church doctrine, but according to a vision received by Mosiah Hancock in 1855, every female spirit chose to either side with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ or to remain neutral during the premortal rebellion. However, this caused an uneven proportion of male to female spirits, which, according to Mosiah, brought on problems of its own.

Mosiah Hancock was “one of the most stalwart Utah pioneers.” He was “intimately acquainted with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Orson Pratt, and many other of the Church’s earliest leaders,” and was ordained a Seventy in 1852. Three years later, Mosiah wrote,

“I was permitted by the power of God, to go into His presence and into my former abode. I saw the Eternal Father on His throne and His wives on his left side, all shining in glory; I saw the Savior and knew Him. It takes the power of the Holy Ghost to tell the difference between the Father and the Son, they look so much alike. Jesus said: ‘Mosiah, I have brought you here to show you how it was before you went to the earth.’”

Thus, Mosiah received a wealth of information about what is known in Mormonism as the pre-existence. His entire vision is interesting and worth the time to read, but here I will only mention a few of his pre-earth observations as recorded in Life Everlasting by Duane S. Crowther (Cedar Fort, 2007. Mosiah Hancock’s vision is found on pages 93-98).

Mosiah learned that God’s children “seemed to have been created mates.” That is, they were created each as a pair, consisting of one male and one female.

“[T]hey were arranged in classes of about two hundred; the males sitting in front and the females behind them. They were taught in the arts and sciences, and everything necessary to make the heart happy…I also saw Joseph, Brigham, and many others engaged in this work of education.”

In one account Mosiah specified that while there was instruction on such things as oratory, astronomy, trigonometry and the use of machinery, “the females were taught to weave, to knit, to sew and to work in everything in their departments.”

Much of Mosiah’s vision was about the War in Heaven and how it affected the spirits and their futures:

“I heard the question asked: ‘Who will go down and set an example of humility and faithfulness to these my children, that at they may be brought, through obedience to our laws, back into our presence?’

“…The plan of [Jesus] was accepted as being the only sure plan for an exaltation. The plan of [Lucifer] was rejected with great kindness; but [he] was not satisfied… Finally, Lucifer openly rebelled against the Father and the Son.

“We who were faithful to the Father and Son, had a white star upon us, and the others chose a red star; about one third of the males and females would not accept of either star, but withdrew from the conflict, the females taking the males by the arm, said, ‘Come, let us not take part with either side. Let us retire.’ …Satan and his followers were all cast down, their female companions wept, and we all wept.

“…the Great Eternal spoke again and said, ‘Hear, 0 ye my children’; His voice penetrating the immensity of space so that all could hear it, ‘It is decreed by the Great Eternal that the females shall not follow their males in their banishment, but for every male that has kept his first estate and fought valiantly for the Father and the Son, there are two females.’

“’Again it is decreed that those males who have taken no part in this great conflict shall keep their females and a race of servants shall thy be.’

“I then saw that the notable ones who had taken such an interest in the rights of the Father and the Son, were appointed to gather up those lone females whose companions had been cast down. They were again placed in classes, each man having two females in the ranks behind him. I there saw that they were again taught in their classes, which now contained about three hundred.”

In due time in Mosiah’s vision, Joseph Smith prepared to go to earth:

“…the voice of the Great Eternal said, ‘Oh, my neglected daughters, gather around these my faithful servants who have been faithful in teaching you the principles of righteousness, and of our kingdom, that others may come up and have the chance to be glorified.’ I saw many of them gather around Joseph and form a ring with him, and the Savior in the center. They made a covenant with him that they would meet him on the earth and help him establish that great work upon the earth. I saw many of them gather around Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and many other notable ones, and around many who have not become so notable. They formed rings around each of them, with Christ in the center each time, for He rehearsed to them the covenant. They would take each other by the hand, in the circle, and bow their faces down to Him in the center, and in the most solemn manner agree to meet them here, until every one of those neglected daughters was provided for…”

Duane Crowther suggests that these “neglected daughters” were females whose male “mates” had been banished following the War in Heaven, and that the “provision” for these female spirits “perhaps was a reference to the plural marriage which was practiced within the Church until 1890” (114).

But if so, what of the plural wives who were not provided for on earth because their husbands had responsibilities toward too many women? As Mormon author Todd Compton pointed out, “Polygamous wives often experienced what was essentially acute neglect” (In Sacred Loneliness, xiii).

And what of the women who were married to and living with other husbands when Joseph Smith made them his plural wives? Eleven of Joseph Smith’s wives were already being “provided for” by their legal husbands at the time they chose to also wed the man with whom they had apparently covenanted before coming to earth.

As confusing as parts of Mosiah Hancock’s vision may be, much of the information recorded by him was standard Mormonism in 1855. Orson Pratt was teaching that Heavenly Father had many wives (The Seer, 172). Latter-day Saints believed that Joseph Smith taught that those who were “neutral” in the “great conflict” would be black-skinned and cursed through denying them the priesthood (Sermons and Missionary Service of Melvin J. Ballard, 248). Brigham young taught that the black race would be “the ‘servant of servants’” (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291). Plural marriage was understood to be a divine mandate (Journal of Discourses 1:58ff).

Even though Mosiah Hancock’s vision passed a test of authenticity (it was not “contrary to the church covenants” D&C 28:12), we have to remember that it is not, and never has been, regarded as official. Yet it’s still interesting and informative to see what Mormons in 1855 believed God was telling them.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Early Mormonism, Polygamy and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

21 Responses to A Vision of Mormonism’s Premortality

  1. Mike R says:

    It’s not surprising to see that many of Mr. Hancock’s belief’s were consistent with what other
    General Authorities believed and taught. ” Official” ? Apparently these beliefs that he shared
    are personally official to him and that becomes evidence whereby we can evaluate him by,
    as were told to do with anyone who claims to be authorized by Jesus to preach spiritual truths.
    1Tim.6:3; 1Jn 4:1

  2. falcon says:

    What a terrific article! Weren’t these early Mormons spiritual superstars? They really had it going on. What’s happening to the SLC version of Mormonism in these modern times? They have really lost their way.
    Take, for example, this”
    “I was permitted by the power of God, to go into His presence and into my former abode. I saw the Eternal Father on His throne and His wives on his left side, all shining in glory; I saw the Savior and knew Him. It takes the power of the Holy Ghost to tell the difference between the Father and the Son, they look so much alike. Jesus said: ‘Mosiah, I have brought you here to show you how it was before you went to the earth.’”
    There it is. Why in the world would anyone need any proof that the restored gospel is the real deal when we have these guys ushered right into the throne room in order to see and commune with God? It’s got to be true! Why would someone make something like this up?
    But here’s the deal, I know of all sorts of claims by people, prophets and just regular folks who claim these types of experiences. I’ve posted this before, but I think it’s worth another go round since it also is related to Mormonism.

    “By medical standards, Cora had died. In reality; she had been taken by Our Lord in the deepest ecstasy. She described the ecstasy as a mystical experience of neither death nor life. Jesus appeared to her as a shepherd. Together they sped “away from the din of earth,” Cora delighted in receiving infused knowledge of God. In her written account of the ecstasy she quotes scripture, “Oh death you have no sting,” (1 Cor 15: 50 – 58).”
    For more, link to:

  3. Mike R says:

    Mormon leaders have claimed to have the same appointment by the same Jesus to preach
    the same gospel as those apostles who are recorded in the New Testament. Yet , when we
    peruse the record of Mormon apostles since their claimed appointment in the early 1830’s
    we notice how far they have strayed from Jesus’s true gospel. They have proceeded to mix
    in their own ideas and add them to Jesus’ gospel, thus they alter the authentic good news that
    Jesus’ true apostles preached as necessary to be made right with God and receive eternal life.
    Near the end of her post above Sharon mentions just four of the aberrant teachings from
    Mormon apostles that characterized what they taught as spiritual truth : God the Father was
    a polygamist ; spirits who were “neutral” in heaven are sent to earth as cursed and given a black
    skin ; these blacks would be “servant of servants ” ; polygamy was a “divine mandate” ( an
    important part of the gospel ) . With gospel preaching like this we can see why Mormon apostles
    are more in line with those who Paul said would come —2 Cor 11:13 — rather than authentic
    messengers appointed by Jesus to preach His true gospel . May the Mormon people trade
    their apostles for ones that are more trustworthy and provide a consistent gospel message ,
    and these apostles are available in the New Testament .

  4. Rick B says:

    I really feel sorry for Mormons and how they are being mislead and being lead into a Christ-less eternity.
    The article says

    “I was permitted by the power of God, to go into His presence and into my former abode.

    If Mormons read their Bible they would no this is not true, and never happened. Paul claims to have had a vision of heaven and was not allowed to talk about it, and even if he wanted to, he said he could not describe it.

    Jesus tells us, no man has seen the father and cannot, and that Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.

    Yet the LDS believe these teachers. But then on the other hand, if they claim to read the Bible, they still wont care what it says since they will say, It cannot be trusted and is missing many plain and precious parts. So for LDS it is a lose, lose position. And sadly in the end they will lose there lose for all of eternity.

  5. falcon says:

    I don’t know why Mormons believe these tall tales. But I do know that there are people who will flock to look at the tile floor in a bathroom of an auto parts store in northern California because someone claims that you can see an image of the Virgin Mary there. I could provide a steady stream of stories here regarding people who have claimed to have had visions, revelations and all manner of supernatural phenomenon.
    It happens today even in Christian circles. There are people who claim visitations by angels and miraculous effects like gold teeth growing in their mouths during church services.
    Once a person puts themselves in that frame of mind, they’ll begin to “see” and claim all sorts of miraculous happenings.
    What’s the foundation for the Mormon commitment? It’s the burning in the bosom experience right, a knowing. Once a person gives into that notion they can be led to believe anything.
    False prophets trade in these false spiritual experiences. There’s a reason why the current day Mormon prophets don’t predict the future or claim visions or visitations but rather just wax eloquent about wholesome living.
    They’re not going to put themselves out there. So they play it safe and the Mormon faithful just drop over dead at the very mention of their names. It’s an easy con. Why mess with it?

  6. grindael says:

    I read Life Everlasting when I was in High School. I recently re-read it and couldn’t believe how naive I once was. Case in point. Why would spirit women be taught weaving? For what purpose? It couldn’t be for life on earth, because according to Mormonism, they would forget everything they learned in the pre-existence. Spirit clothing? Weren’t they innocent? They also would not have had any carnal desires, would they? Hanc*ck’s “vision” is so obviously a 19th century invention of what one would think heaven is like in that time period, that any credibility for the “vision” can be ruled out by simple common sense. But to a young teen fed all the fantastic stories about Smith and angels, and heavily doctored history, I was thoroughly impressed and certain that it was all the absolute truth. Years later, after getting a hold of original documents, the undoctored histories and statements, and with the knowledge of what a contemporary source really was, I began the painful process of leaving my boyhood folly behind me. What is sad, is that grown people will take these made up stories, and pass them around, tout them in Sacrament and Sunday School as the absolute truth, and then have to deal with their leaders calling them “folklore” in an effort to defend the indefensible to the world at large, while hypocritically passing them around to the faithful as the real deal.

  7. grindael says:

    Something to think about. If Mormonism’s God the Father (and his “Goddess” wife) had perfect genes, then wouldn’t ALL his children look just like him, not just Jesus? Think Boba Fett from Attack of the Clones. Now, if he had multiple wives, then perhaps those other wives children would look different? I don’t know, I find the whole polygamy in heaven thing just plain creepy.

    Oh, I got it! They needed clothes to have something to pin name tags to, to tell each other apart! Then again maybe not, cause if that were true, Hanc*ck would have noticed it, wouldn’t he?

    And, if it’s true that one needed the “power of the Holy Ghost” to tell Jesus & GTF apart, what about before the Holy Ghost was chosen as the Holy Ghost? How did they do it before that? I mean, was Jesus the EXACT same height and weight?

  8. grindael says:

    Here is one of the greatest examples of imagination run amok that I’ve ever seen. Wilford Woodruff was so impressed with this, that he wrote it down in his Journal. The audacity of this “vision” still makes me want to throw up, every time I read it.

    A Remarkable Vision
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    I Ann Booth wife of Robert Booth of the Town of Manchester England had the following vision on the 12th Day of March in the year of our Lord 1840.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    Being Carried away in a vision to the place of departed souls I saw {12} prision one above another vary large & builded of Soiled Stone. On ariving at the door of the uppermost prision, I beheld one of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb who had been martered in America Standing at the door of the prision holding a key with which he unlocked the door & went in & I followed him.

    He appeared to be of a large size thick set, Dark hair Dark eyes & eyebrows of a smileing Countenance, & on his head was a Crown of Gold or sumthing [p.476] brighter. He was Dressed in a long white robe with the sleeves plaited from the Sholder to the hand. Upon his breast were four stars * * * * apparrently like gold and a golden gridle about his loins. His feet were bear from above the ancles downwards, downwards, and his hands were also bear. As he entered the prision he seemed to stand about 3 feet from the floor (which was of Marble) as if the place was not worthy for him to stand upon. A vary brilient and glorious light Serrounded him while the rest of the Prision was dark. But his light was peculiar to himself & did not reflect upon others who were in the Prison who were surrounded with a gloom of darkness.

    On the right hand near the door stood John Westley who on seeing the glorious Personage raised both hands & shouted Glory, honor, Praise, & Power be asscribed unto God & the Lamb forever & forever. Deliverance has Come. The Apostle then Commenced to Preach the Baptism of repentance for remission of Sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, when the hunderds of Prisoners gave a shout with a loud voice Saying Glory be to God forever & ever.

    The marble floor was then removed & a river of water Clear as Cristle seemed to flow in its place. The Apostle then Called to John Westley by name who came forward quickley and both went down into the water & he Baptized him & coming up out of the water he laid hands on him for the gift of the Holy Ghost at the same time ordaining him to the Priesthood of Aaron.

  9. grindael says:

    The Apostle then retired to the place whare he stood at first and John Westley then proceded to Baptize A man by the name of Killham the leader of the New Connection of Methodist and next John Madison & then Scott, & John Tongue. The three latter were Methodist Preachers with whom I had formerly been acquainted. The next he Baptized was my Grandfather (Edmund Whitehead) & the next was my uncle (John Whitehead) & the next was my sister (Elizabeth Oiland) & next Joseph Lancashire & next Samuel Robinson & then next was my own Mother. All these had [p.477] lived & died Methodist & I had been personally acquainted with them all. And after this he Baptized all the prisoners amounting to many hundreds.

    After they were all Baptized the Apostle laid his hands on them & Confirmed them evry one. Then instantly the darkness dispersed & they were all Surrounded & envelloped in A Brilient light such as surrounded the Apostle at the first & they all lifted their voices with one accord giving glory to God for deliverance.

    My Grandfather then Came to me & blessed me saying the Lord bless the forever & ever. Art thou come to see us deliverd? My mother then came to me & clasped me in her arms & kissed me three times & said the Lord Allmighty bless thee forever & ever.

    I then awoke out of the Vision & felt so happy & overjoyed that I knew not how to remain in bed. But waking my husband we arose & taking the Bible I opened Providentially to the text Isaiah 24th they shall be gathered together &c. More & more astonished, I again opened the Bible to the 1st of St John The light shineth in darkness &c. And again the third time I opened it & immediately cast my eyes upon the 3d chapter of Peter 18, 19, 20 speaking of the spirits in Prison. Being before ignorant of these texts & opening upon each Providentially I was asstonished beyound measure.

    I would further state that at the time I had this vision I had never herd of the Death of David W. Patten whom I have since learned was one of the Twelve Apostles of the Latter Day Saints in America & was slain in the late persecution in the fall of 1838. But in the Vision I knew it was an Apostle who had been slain in America.

    Perhaps many will think lightly of this vision But I hereby Sollemnly testify that I actaully Saw & herd in a vision what I have here related & I give my name & set my seal in witness to the Same well knowing that I must stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ & answer for this Testimony. [p.478]Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 1, 1833–1840, p.475-477

  10. grindael says:

    Where would they get water in the Spirit World? If they could baptize people there, why would they need Temples on earth to do it in?If she didn’t know who Patten was, how did she know it was “an Apostle who was martyred in America”? If she knew that, why didn’t she know his name? And the part about John Wesley is what really makes me sick. After this “vision” Woodruff wrote this,


    “On the 9th of Aug 1840 their was a sign in the Moon. The people at Great Marlvern Hills in Herefordshire Eng took a view of it through their glasses. The appearance of the moon was as if it were painted red & while looking at it one part of it fell in peices & the appearance of a soldier was seen in the moon with a white feather in his Cap. The Number that was on his Cap was vary plain & a figure 8 on his shouldJer. They saw his firelock & gun ready for Battle & his dress was clearly seen.” ~Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 1, 1833–1840, p.478

  11. Mike R says:

    A staple at all Mormon conferences is that the Holy Ghost is active in the lives of LDS,
    especially with those in leadership positions . So it would great to have this Mormon General
    Authorities vision shared with those assembled at conference this October .
    What do you think ?

  12. falcon says:

    I’m convinced that what closes the deal for folks who believe these fantasy tales is their desire to appear spiritual; part of the “in” group who understands the “deep” spiritual truths supposedly represented in these visions.
    People who don’t understand/accept Mormonism are simply spiritual slackers. They aren’t as gifted or have as much faith as those who swallow the stories whole.
    A couple of summers ago, there was a guy named Todd Bentley having nightly meetings in Florida. He had a large tent and people would flock there.
    One of the religious channels was broadcasting the meetings. This guy would get up and “preach” and as I listened I realized his presentation was void of any real Scriptural content. Just a stream of miraculous stories fueled by emotion. He’d often just march around screaming “fire, fire, fire”.
    The whole thing blew up when it was revealed that he was having an affair with a staff member. Subsequently he and his wife got divorced and he married the woman with whom he had the affair. As it turns out, he has now been “restored” and is in the ministry business again. Here’s a link to an eight minute video that I found after doing a quick search.


    Now I can see a Mormon watching this and saying, “Well we’re not like those fools.” Oh, really. It doesn’t matter if someone is jumping up and down or sitting quietly enthralled by stories of visions, super natural appearances and “prophetic” revelations.
    The end result is the same. It really doesn’t matter by what label the religious folks go by, false teachings and visions have the same end result.
    That’s why it’s important to go to the Word of God and trust what it says rather than the words of men who claim special revelations.

  13. falcon says:

    Sorry about the bad link above. It’s a long story. Here it is.


    Joseph Smith and the early Mormons were vision crazy. I believe it was Martin Harris who was having all sorts of revelations and visions. In fact the three witnesses to the BoM never actually saw the plates, but had visionary experiences. The following link provides more information on this.


    Now to the dyed in the wool Mormon, I suppose it doesn’t make much difference it the plates were seen with their physical eyes or the eyes of faith in a vision. The later claim would probably be even better for the mystically oriented Mormon.
    The problem is that Mormons are led to believe that these guys actually “saw” the plates with their physical eyes.

    A “prophet” can accomplish a lot through the use of supernatural mystical visions, spirit appearances and (prophetic) revelations. So it’s the veracity of the reporter that has to be examined along with the report itself.
    I think I’m mystically oriented. However I don’t believe much of what I hear regarding these happenings. I’ve become more skeptical over the years. I think skepticism is a necessity for anyone exposed to mystical claims.
    I think some people believe they have to accept these reports as true, as a sign of faith. Unfortunately, the more convoluted the reports and claims are, the more some people believe them. It’s as if the more far out a claim is, the more it must be true.

  14. falcon says:

    Maybe Mormonism has morphed into a mature movement because it doesn’t seem to me that they have any leaders around like Mosiah Hancock featured in the above article.
    These early Mormon leaders were very much into visions and mental meanderings disguised as spiritually charged revelation. Just think of Joseph Smith who set the early pace for encounters with spirit beings of every sort. These beings revealed things to him that were buried so deep that only a conspiracy theory could account for no record of Smith’s claims to what came to be called the “restored” gospel.
    Joseph Smith was even visited by an angel with a sword who announced that he would kill him if he didn’t start marrying more women. I mean what’s a guy to do with that sort of pressure placed on him?
    The early off-shoots of Mormonism were also promoted by “prophets” who would get visions and even their own version of buried plates.
    For example consider James Strang:

    “On the same day Smith was murdered, Strang, who was 200 miles away, received a vision from an angel appointing him as prophet.”

    “All of Smith’s family and many prominent members of the LDS church followed Strang who moved the headquarters of the church to Wisconsin. Eventually Strang was led to discover more ancient plates which he translated and obtained the testimony of 11 men that they were real and authentic. He also put his plates on public display.”

    So all I’ve got to say is that modern day Mormons are getting cheated when it comes to the whole program of visions, visitations, prophetic words and the fore-telling of the future by their current leaders.
    Not to fret however. There are still guys emerging from the bowels of Mormonism who claim these things and even start their own fledgling movements.

  15. falcon says:

    Now that’s about the funniest thing that’s ever happened to me on Mormon Coffee.
    Believe me folks I have never been filtered for “profanity” before, since I don’t use profanity.
    I did get a kick out of it and a good laugh when I noticed that the subjects name of the above article was flagged for being profane.
    I wonder how Sharon got it past the censor when she was writing the article?
    Anyway, this will give me a chuckle all day.

    The falcon.

  16. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I join you in being ” filtered for profanity ” . But I’m glad they have some filter as this
    is a public forum . I agree that the Mormon Church is different from what it was in the days
    of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young ( not so sure what you meant by ” mature” ) . Unfortunately
    the main reason it is different is because it’s leaders can’t seem to make up their minds on what
    is reliable gospel truth. Next month, next year , or maybe next decade , Mormon apostles
    will be down playing or denying a doctrine(s) that they hold true TODAY as part of their gospel
    ladder of requirements necessary for LDS to be in God’s will . Thus new “gospel truths” aka
    ” Church standards ” will be advocated by the Mormon prophet , the one man who is said to
    reveal the mind and will of God to all believers. Heck, these men may even discard the need
    to keep the Word of Wisdom, the wearing of Temple garments , or maybe add Heavenly Mother
    to the Godhead, bring back polygamy, or make beards for men mandatory for Temple access ,
    who knows . These modern-day apostles claim to be the sole authorized officers in Jesus’ church
    since the 1830’s directly supervised by the same Jesus who directed the gospel preaching of the
    apostles recorded in the New Testament. Yet a comparison of gospels [ Gal 1:8-9] reveals one
    gospel as stable , reliable, and the other as unstable ,vacillating . So : 1Jn 4:1

  17. falcon says:

    By “matured” I mean that there is no resemblance between the wild and wooly Mormon religion of the 19th century and that which is headquartered in SLC today. It was all a conjured up pseudo-spiritual fireworks display anyway. Mormon leaders don’t run around with magic rocks any more or claim visitations by spirit beings. They don’t try to foretell the future. They by and large are a pretty staid and dry bunch.
    Andy Watson told me that he visited many Mormon church services and said they would bore you to tears. Everyone reminded him of a funeral.
    So Mormonism with it’s leadership is basically running on fumes. They can’t really have any sort of reformation and yet they are hemorrhaging members.
    That’s why one Mormon writer has suggested that Mormonism curtail their missionary work and try to build the Mormon community. Sending a young person on a mission is a good way of getting them to go inactive upon their return.

  18. Mike R says:

    Falcon, on one hand we have today’s Mormon leaders proudly advertising that Brigham Young
    faithfully completed his duty as prophet/teacher of gospel truths : ” Though more than a
    century has now passed , his words, are still fresh and appropriate for us today as we continue
    the work of building the kingdom of God.” [ Church Manual , Teachings of the Presidents of the
    Church—Brigham Young, p. v ] .

    On the other hand , if one looks closely at what this so-called modern day prophet/apostle
    did teach then one might agree with what Mormon author Boyd Kirkland wrote:
    ” But after Young’s death in 1877 , many of his doctrines were apologized for , reinterpreted ,
    repudiated, or simply denied to have ever been taught . Much of this took place at the turn of
    the century , when the Church was trying to improve it’s public image…” [Line Upon Line,p178]

    Perhaps many of these Mormon Missionaries that you mentioned above became faced with
    much of the evidence that to points to the fact that the Mormon apostles that were
    instrumental in helping start and then lead their new church thru the 19th century were
    only religious men who added their own ideas to what is written in the scriptures about God or
    the gospel, thus much of what they preached was actually “the precepts of men” , not the same
    gospel as Jesus’ true apostles preached —- 1Tim 6:3; 2Cor 11:4,13 [ also 2Nephi 28:14,31 ] .
    This might have been a contributing factor in the decision of these young men to become
    inactive once home .

  19. falcon says:

    Modern Mormon leaders just don’t have the mojo that that original bunch had like the fella who’s the subject of the above article. 19th century Mormonism can’t survive in a 21st century world. Any Mormon willing to do some independent research using LDS church documents will figure out that 19th century Mormonism was a religious amusement park.
    I often reference the era of the founding of Mormonism. It was a time of religious experimentation. Although the time period contained a great out pouring and one of enlightenment for the Christian church, the (time period) and religious fervor also gave birth to a lot of religious experimentation. The results were religious sects with new and exciting claims that were unfortunately fraught with error.
    What’s that German word that I can’t spell “zeitgeist”. It means “the spirit of the times”. There were all sorts of folks having revelations of the new truth. Throw in some visitations by spirit beings or some sort of vision and the professor of such was in business.
    You don’t have to dig very deeply into these claims to determine that they have more to do with the desire of the person making the claim than any real spiritual manifestation.
    What these folks have to do up front is convince others that the original revelation was some how flawed. That opens the door for the new revelation to be brought forth. When it’s pointed out that the new revelation is consistent with the accepted revelation and the Scripture that supports it, then the original is said to be in error.
    Without a standard to compare to, anything can be held as the truth.

  20. falcon says:

    “When it’s pointed out that the new revelation is consistent with the accepted revelation and the Scripture that supports it, then the original is said to be in error.”

    That should read “inconsistent”.

    I must be thinking about that steak I’m about to grill. This will, of course, serve to torture my four dogs who can’t figure out why the steak isn’t theirs.

  21. falcon says:

    So when we talk about a standard by which to judge supernatural claims or claims of revelation, the Mormon test basically comes down to if it makes you feel good it’s true and if it makes you feel bad, it’s false.
    The “feeling” is thought by Mormons to be supernatural in and of itself and a sign that God is communicating with you. This feeling goes by many names such as “inner witness” or “burning in the bosom”. Someone who gets these feelings gets a sort of spiritual merit badge that indicates that they have now arrived and have status.
    Mormons like to point to the passage in Scripture where Peter recognizes Jesus as the Christ and Jesus tells (Peter) that the Father has revealed this to him. It’s quite a leap from that incident in the Bible to someone thinking they can apply an emotion to proof of something being true or of God communicating with them.
    The term “bosom burning” is actually used in the Bible and it’s when some disciples, (after Jesus’ resurrection) realized that they had been speaking to Jesus but didn’t know it. Mormons don’t understand that this is an expression related to an emotion. I know I’ve had a “burning in the bosom” related to all sorts of life experiences including the Packers winning the Superbowl.
    So when we examine the experience of Mosiah H******* in the article above, how would we judge if it’s true. As has been pointed out, Brigham Young was a real sis boom bah Mormon leader until he died. I’m sure there were all sorts of bosom burnings going on regarding his presence in a gathering and his “prophetic” words. Since the turn of the last century Mormons have been running away from him as fast as they can.

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