On May 16, 2013 Meridian Magazine (online) published an article by Mormon author Wallace Goddard titled, “The Restoration Plan of Salvation: ‘It Came From God!’” Dr. Goddard’s article is aimed at proving the superior beauty and cohesiveness of the Mormon gospel as compared to any others. He writes,
“It is my intent to help us appreciate the remarkable wisdom and graciousness of the plan [of salvation] taught by God Himself in the Restoration. It is worlds apart from any other plan…”
Dr. Goddard’s article “merely sample[s] a few key issues” on the topic. Below you will find an infographic co-produced by Mormon Infographics and Evidence Ministries. This presents a broader picture of the gospel “restored” by Mormonism. Below that you will find another infographic, this one of the Christian Gospel as set forth in the Bible.
These graphic displays illustrate that these two gospels are indeed “worlds apart.”
Can anybody say Caricature?
Seriously. This is hilarious. This “graphic”representing our doctrine is ludicrous and is obviously intended to create the impression that the gospel of Jesus Christ is illogical and difficult to understand. Even the methods of illustration demonstrate the bias in this comparison- the LDS caricature uses sharp, straight lines while the “softer” gospel of non-LDS Christianity uses smooth, pleasant, rounded, and flowing arrows to please the eye.
I think the most manipulative element in the graphic ridiculing our doctrine is the fact that nowhere is Christ found in the puzzle. At least I cannot see the atonement of Christ in this graphic. And this leads me to conclude that this is based on a completely dishonest assessment of our doctrine. The other possibility is that those trying to pass this off as somehow representing what we really believe simply are ignorant of what we actually believe.
It is in reality debatable whether it is even worth a person’s time to comment on such a false representation of our faith. I cannot imagine having the time or interest to represent another people in such a fashion. But it certainly would not take much effort to create just such a caricature of the non-LDS Christian gospel maintained by what I would guess is the majority of people on this site.
“It is in reality debatable whether it is even worth a person’s time to comment on such a false representation of our faith. I cannot imagine having the time or interest to represent another people in such a fashion. But it certainly would not take much effort to create just such a caricature of the non-LDS Christian gospel maintained by what I would guess is the majority of people on this site.”
Actually the truth is that most LDS members do not realize that they do have to become perfect in this life. Without this perfection, no one can attain celestial glory.
RikkiJ,
This just shows how little you know about our faith.
We become perfect only through Christ.
@faithoffathers
“This just shows how little you know about our faith.
We become perfect only through Christ.”
Sadly faithoffathers, it’s you who disagree with your prophets and presidents. This is what the expert(According to Prophet Monson) in the field of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball said:
“Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day, their seventy years to put their lives in harmony, to perform the ordinances, to repent and perfect their lives.” Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.314 (1969).
To be clear, this is in the context or celestial glory, this doesn’t include terrestial or telestial kingdoms.
The atonement in Christ is insufficient unless sin is repented (forsaken completely without repetition):
“Again in 1833, the Prophet gave assurance that the totally repentant one will see the Lord; and this means forgiveness, for only the pure in heart will see God.” Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.355 (1969).
“The Lord will indeed forgive, but he will not tolerate repetitions of the sin:” Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.355 (1969).
Can you show me where any LDS prophet(as doctrinal authority) has stated that only in Christ can you be saved(celestial glory) without perfect repentance?
The ball is in your court.
Apologies, last quote is p.357
Wallace Goddard writes, “Any time we are presented with a theory for God’s plan for our salvation, we should consider whether or not it reflects what we know about its creator. Any plan truly created by the Master Craftsman should reflect His character and purposes.”
I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately the Mormon God is not the God of the Bible and that’s why Goddard seems to think God is loving only if He let’s paedophiles and rapists enjoy bliss in the ‘glory of the Telestial’ which ‘surpasses all understanding’ (D&C 76:89). Presumably because this is fair to a rape victim who in depression becomes a con-artist and occupies the same eternal ‘blessing’ as her rapist. If I follow that Mormon info graphic correctly then only Jesus would be in the Celestial kingdom.
@faithoffathers
One more quote from Prophet Fielding Smith:
“If a man will enter into life, then he must abide in the law of the gospel, keeping all of the commandments to the end of his mortal life.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v2:p34, 1954-1956
The Prophets and Presidents agree on the means of salvation as being perfect repentance. All the commandments must be kept till the end of life.
Here are some statements made by General Authorities and in official, correlated LDS publications that appear to me to imply strongly that sinlessness is required to gain eternal life and/or forgiveness. (I thought I’d add these to RikkiJ’s list of quotes from “unofficial” books by General Authorities.)
“The purging out of sin would be impossible but for the total repentance of the individual and the kind mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ in his atoning sacrifice. Only by these means can man recover, be healed and washed and purged, and still be eligible for the glories of eternity.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball (2006), “Jesus Christ: My Savior, My Lord”, page 27
“God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball (2006), “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 44
“Eternal life means to have everlasting life in that celestial sphere where God and Christ dwell, by doing all things we are commanded. (See Abr. 3:25.)”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (2000), “The Way to Eternal Life”, pages 3-4
“This is the exchange the Savior is asking of us: we are to give up all our sins, big or small, for the Father’s reward of eternal life.”
Robert C. Gay (Seventy), General Conference, October 2012, “What Shall a Man Give in Exchange for His Soul?”
“The Atonement of Jesus Christ assures each of us that we will be resurrected and live forever. But if we are to live forever with our families in Heavenly Father’s presence, we must do all that the Savior commands us to do.”
Gospel Principles (2009), “Temple Work and Family History”, page 233
“Faith in Jesus Christ helps us be prepared for the Final Judgment. Through faithful discipleship to Him and repentance of all our sins, we can be forgiven for our sins and become pure and holy so that we can dwell in the presence of God. As we repent of our sins, giving up every impure thought and act, the Holy Ghost will change our hearts so we no longer have even the desire to sin (see Mosiah 5:2). Then when we are judged, we will be found ready to enter into God’s presence.”
Gospel Principles (2009), “The Final Judgment”, page 270
“Heavenly Father has provided us, His children, with a way to be successful in this life and to return to live in His presence. However, we must be pure and clean through obedience in order to do so. Disobedience moves us away from Him.”
Preach My Gospel (2004), “What Do I Study and Teach?”, page 31
@faithoffathers
“And an unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.” (3 Nephi 27:19)
You must repent of all your sins, because one sin will be considered uncleannness and cannot dwell in God’s presence. And you cannot say you will achieve repentance at the end of your life, because this is procrastinating repentance:
“For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.” (Alma 34:32-35)
Repentance must be done of all sins, and in this life (for those who have been exposed to the gospel). As Kenneth pointed out along with forest, being in Christ (as per LDS Prophets) can only achieve celestial glory when you have repented of all your sins. No repetition.
Correction:
“And an unclean thing” should read “And no unclean thing”. Thanks.
Also, according to the Church, the repentance that secures forgiveness for a particular sin includes discontinuing that sin. (See the statements below.) Keith Walker argues in his “impossible gospel” presentation that this implies that we must discontinue all sins in order to be forgiven of all sins and thus enter the celestial kingdom. I agree with Keith’s conclusion here. (I apologize for dumping all of this material on the thread at once, but it seemed relevant.)
“There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Providing that a person discontinues his sin with the right motives—because of a growing consciousness of the gravity of the sin and a willingness to comply with the laws of the Lord—he is genuinely repenting. This criterion has been set by the Lord: ‘By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.’ (D&C 58:43. Italics added.)
In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his way and started on a new path. . . . The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life. True repentance prods one to action.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball (2006), “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 39
“Second, repentance from sin, meaning the turning away from the sins of disobedience to God’s laws and never returning again thereto. The Lord spoke plainly on this point. Said he: ‘. . . go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth [meaning, of course, returning again to the sins from which he has repented] shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.’ (D&C 82:7.)”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (2000), “The Way of Eternal Life”, page 5
“To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32).”
Gospel Principles (2009), “Repentance”, page 111
“We stop doing wrong things. If we only admit to ourselves that we have sinned, and if we only say that we feel sorry, we have not truly repented. To repent truly, we must also stop doing the wrong things. Sometimes it is not easy to stop, but Jesus came to earth to give us the help we need. Our Father in Heaven wants us to let Jesus help us because that is the only way we can become perfected and return to live with God.”
Gospel Fundamentals, “Repentance”
“Put up the wordstrip, ‘Abandon our sins.’ Ask the young men what it means to abandon our sins. Help the young men understand that a truly repentant person will not repeat his sin.”
Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, “Christ-Centered Repentance”
“When we speak of the continual need of repentance, let it not be understood that we refer to a cycle of sinning and repenting and sinning again. That is not complete repentance. We must see the right and follow it, recognize the wrong and forsake it with a ‘Godly sorrow’ if we would obtain the blessings of complete repentance.”
Young Women Manual 1, “Repentance”
Here’s some evidence that the Church has taught that at least some people must meet the requirements for eternal life by the time that they die.
Mosiah 15:26-27
Alma 34:30-35 (already cited by RikkiJ)
“This is the time for us, while there is yet time, to be prepared to meet our God.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (2000), “Joseph Smith, Prophet of the Living God”, page 76
“The Lord has granted us a few more days or a few more weeks or a few more years as the time goes—it matters not how long—for in the accounting of the Almighty, every day of preparation is precious. One prophet has put it, ‘This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. . . . For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, . . . the devil . . . doth seal you his.’ (Alma 34:32, 35.)
We need to remember that it doesn’t make so much difference whether we die early in life or in middle age, the all-important thing is not when we die, but how prepared are we when we do die. This is a day of preparation for men to prepare to meet their God. How great and merciful He was in allowing us a period of probation during which time man should be perfecting himself.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (2000), “Safely Home at Last”, page 228
“Here and now in mortality, each one of us is having the opportunity of choosing the kind of laws we elect to obey. We are now living and obeying celestial laws that will make us candidates for celestial glory, or we are living terrestrial laws that will make us candidates for . . . terrestrial glory, or telestial law. The place we shall occupy in the eternal worlds will be determined by the obedience we yield to the laws of these various kingdoms during the time we have here in mortality upon the earth.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee (2000), “Safely Home at Last”, page 230
“The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34).”
Gospel Principles (2009), “Exaltation”, page 277
“During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after the Judgment. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also known as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy. They will live together for eternity with those of their family who qualify. …”
Preach My Gospel (2004), “What Do I Study and Teach?”, page 53
None of the quotations you guys have posted changed anything about what I claimed. Christ isn’t even on the chart. And that is dishonest, pure and simple.
Second, you guys apparently do not understand how we view grace and faith. Yes- I know you can quote 2 Nephi 25:23. But you really don’t seem to understand our faith.
Are you guys suggesting that Christ didn’t really mean what He said? His most common command and teaching in the New Testament was to repent. And you seem to be arguing that He didn’t really mean it.
The whole process of repentance and perfection involves the grace of Christ, from beginning to end. We become perfect through Christ, not by never sinning, but by sincerely repenting of those sins and being justified and sanctified through the atonement. And this is a continuous process, with justification made available throughout the process. And that is why partaking of the Sacrament every week become so crucial. In doing so, we are renewing our covenants with the Father and being cleansed from sin as we repent.
I do not understand why it is that our critics find this so hard to understand. The “enduring” part of the gospel entails this very process as well as the continual justification and sanctification.
And that is the essential element in this whole process which you critics completely ignore and remove from our view of the gospel. And that is largely the basis for the incorrectness of this caricature.
Absence of sin in one’s life is not the requirement for exaltation. It is repentance and perfection through the atonement which is based on faith in Christ that is fundamental to our salvation.
FOF said,
Are you guys suggesting that Christ didn’t really mean what He said? His most common command and teaching in the New Testament was to repent. And you seem to be arguing that He didn’t really mean it.
I say,
He meant what he said but the word “repent” does not mean what you think it means. Your leaders have imported all kinds of foreign baggage into a simple and beautiful concept. Twisting and corrupting it until it is unrecognizable. Sort of like they did with the term “saved”
Repent simply means to change your mind. when you repent you stop loving your sin and start loving Jesus.
That is it.
Repentance requires no effort at all on your part but at the same time repentance is impossible apart from the transforming Grace of Christ.
hope that helps to clarify
peace
faithoffathers:
I agree with you that the two graphics are aesthetically biased in favor of the non-LDS gospel.
How specifically would you correct the graphic that supposedly displays the LDS gospel?
As always, I am grateful that you continue to dialogue with me despite our differing opinions. I have met many members of the Church who share your perspective on the process to obtain eternal life. However, in order for me to accept that what you are saying is accurate LDS doctrine, I need to see how your view can be reconciled with the statements that have been posted by myself and others. For example…
“The whole process of repentance and perfection involves the grace of Christ, from beginning to end. We become perfect through Christ, not by never sinning, but by sincerely repenting of those sins and being justified and sanctified through the atonement.
…
Absence of sin in one’s life is not the requirement for exaltation. It is repentance and perfection through the atonement which is based on faith in Christ that is fundamental to our salvation.
Do you disagree with the Church’s assertion that the repentance that secures forgiveness for a particular sin includes discontinuing that sin?
I prefer this LDS chart:
(Source)
Wow…I thought that maze was a joke at first…
FOF said,
The whole process of repentance and perfection involves the grace of Christ, from beginning to end. We become perfect through Christ, not by never sinning, but by sincerely repenting of those sins and being justified and sanctified through the atonement. And this is a continuous process, with justification made available throughout the process. And that is why partaking of the Sacrament every week become so crucial. In doing so, we are renewing our covenants with the Father and being cleansed from sin as we repent.
The Word of GOD says,
quote:
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:14)
end quote
Can’t you see the vast difference between the simple Christian Gospel and the long convoluted Mormon “process of perfection” you describe
peace
Oh, umm, by the way. There is no D&C 22:15. It only has 4 verses.
I must go back to one of my standard responses. That is that I can’t find the Mormon restored gospel in the Bible. In fact, I can’t find any Mormonism in the Bible. I certainly can’t find the Mormon god in the Bible.
Then again, which Mormon sect has the Mormon restored gospel. There are all sorts of these sects. Do they argue among themselves regarding what the restored gospel is?
I know that a couple of the Mormon sects don’t recognize the Salt Lake City Mormon sect restored gospel or god.
From MRM:
The LDS Church claims that men are Gods in embryo and that righteous Mormons can become Gods in the next life. The CofC does not teach that men can become Gods.
Utah Mormons believe that in order to become a God, the faithful member must participate in esoteric temple “endowment” ceremonies. The Mormons only allow “worthy” members to enter their temples and participate in its rituals. The CofC owns two buildings called temples (Kirtland, OH and Independence, MO), and both are open to the public. The CofC “rejects the whole system of temple rituals, secret names, signs, oaths, and handshakes which the Church in Utah proclaims are essential to the ultimate salvation of man” (Fundamental Differences, 1960, pg. 230).
Utah Mormonism teaches that marriages performed in LDS temples can continue after death. The CofC teaches that marriage relationships pertain only to mortal life.
The CofC utilizes the symbol of the cross on its buildings, whereas the LDS Church has refused to use this symbol.
http://www.mrm.org/rlds
Is polygamy apart of the “restored” gospel? From the above cited article:
During the 19th century, the LDS Church in Utah strongly emphasized the practice of plural marriage as a requirement for exaltation. Although this requirement was officially abolished in 1890 (as a condition for Utah statehood), it is still taught that polygamy will be practiced in the hereafter. “Obviously the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium” (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, pg. 522,523). The CofC has always denounced polygamy although it does not deny that it was practiced. For instance, Robert B. Flanders, on page 209 of his book titled, Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, wrote, “The Nauvoo Temple was the focus of religious innovations which revolutionized Mormonism. Ordinances for the dead, as well as novel and secret ordinances for the living, including marriage for eternity, plural marriage, and other extraordinary familial arrangements, were introduced by Smith and Young in Nauvoo for temple observance.”
And what about some of the other more “unique” concepts in the SLC sects restored gospel?
The LDS Church teaches that deceased persons can embrace Mormonism in the spirit world through “baptism for the dead.” The CofC has never condoned such a teaching and does not practice baptism for the dead.
Until 1978, the LDS Church taught that the “Seed of Cain,” those of African heritage, could not hold the Mormon priesthood since such people were not valiant enough for the cause of Christ when Lucifer rebelled against God in the “pre-existence.” The CofC has never held such a view although Joseph Smith III claimed to have received a revelation which warned his Church to “not be hasty in ordaining men of the Negro race to offices in my church” since “all are not acceptable unto me as servants …” (Reorganized Doctrine and Covenants 116:4.)
Yes indeed, this “restored” gospel is nothing more than the invention of some 19th century religious experimenters.
Finally, what’s this business about being the “one true church” and being a direct representation of the first century Christian Church?
Both the LDS and CofC claimed God ordained their organization as the true restoration of fallen Christianity. The LDS Church continues to insist that it alone represents “the only true church” and more closely emulates primitive Christianity. The CofC has come to abandon this notion: “A majority of committee members held that this vision of the nature of the church was inadequate for the church of the present day. It does not conform to our best present understanding of the nature of God as revealed in the gospel of Christ, nor does it allow us to account for the fact that we continually experience the reality of authentic Christian discipleship in people from other traditions.
Moreover, our past understanding of earliest Christianity has proved to be historically deficient: there is simply no evidence that a church existed in the first century that looked like ours. Therefore, the belief that we are the restoration of the primitive form of Christianity can no longer be sustained.”
What???????
” there is simply no evidence that a church existed in the first century that looked like ours. The belief that we are the restoration of the primitive form of Christianity can no longer be sustained.”
Well slap me upside the head! So what’s the point of the “restored” gospel? There isn’t one! This 19th century invention never existed in any form before Joseph Smith decided to use his magic rock for something other than trying to see buried treasure in the ground. This total joke would be funny except for the fact that there are people who have been drawn in and believe this fantasy.
Jacob said:
There is no D&C 22:15. It only has 4 verses.
I say,
You are correct, The footnote reference should be to D&C 76:102-106
I assume that the mistake happened because the phrase is similar to one used in Revelation 22:14-17.
At first glance the two texts sound alike but the Biblical passage emphasizes Christ’s sacrifice as a way to freely enter the city to anyone who desires to do so.
The Mormon text on the other hand offers no such hope for folks who are “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.”
peace
Actually I think they may have been trying to reference D&C 20:15. I hope they can do better references next time.
There is a warning in Paul’s letter to the Galatians that I think Mormons would be wise to heed. It comes in Galatians 1:6-8.
It says specifically that if anyone preaches a gospel contrary to what Paul preaches, let him be accursed. That’s a pretty strong indictment with a very severe penalty.
We really don’t have to ask what the gospel that Paul preaches is. It’s evident in all his writings and he tells us that he received it as a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Mormons are under a curse because they are preaching a gospel other than the one that has once and for all been delivered. But in their folly, they fall into the trap of false apostles and prophets whom themselves are under a curse.
What needs to happen is that Mormons turn from their false gospel, repent and receive Jesus, whom Paul preached, as their Lord and Savior.
Embracing a “Jesus” that Joseph Smith and his subsequent apostles and prophets preached, will not result in eternal life.
@Faithoffathers
I really think your opinions are great. But in the search for celestial glory, your opinions are simply that. Can you verify your beliefs with quotes from the GA (General Authorities)?
It simply cannot mean what you’d like it to mean. It simply can only mean what LDS Prophets and Presidents, Apostles and Elders have always explained it. Let’s take a look at what you said:
“Absence of sin in one’s life is not the requirement for exaltation. It is repentance and perfection through the atonement which is based on faith in Christ that is fundamental to our salvation.”
“Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep all of the commandments of the Lord. There will be many who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who shall never become members of the Church of the Firstborn.” Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v2:p41, 1954-1956
“The Lord will indeed forgive, but he will not tolerate repetitions of the sin:” Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.355 (1969).
“To the prophets the term unclean in this context means what it means to God. To man the word may be relative in meaning – one minute speck of dirt does not make a white shirt or dress unclean, for example. But to God who is perfection, cleanliness means moral and personal cleanliness. Less than that is, in one degree or another, uncleanliness and hence cannot dwell with God.” Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.19 (1969)
If you have to keep all the commandments to enter celestial kingdom and not repeat the sin, then does keeping all the commandments allow you to have any sin? In order to dwell with God we cannot have one sin or transgression that makes us unclean (as per LDS prophets and presidents). Isn’t that perfect repentance?
Faithoffathers, please provide support from your Prophets and Presidents that say we do not have to be free from all sin to enter celestial glory! Can justice rob mercy? Can the atonement cover repeated sin?
Kenneth,
Thanks for the note. Yes, there is plenty I can offer in the way of passages from our scriptures and statements from lds.org that support what I am saying. I could offer literally thousands of statements from leaders, but hopefully this is enough of a start to convince that I am not pulling your leg.
A verse that should offer some perspective is found in the book of Mosiah. It reads, “Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.” (Mosiah 26:30)
The critics love to quote President Kimball regarding repeated sins. I agree completely with President Kimball on the topic. If a person repeats a sin every day and makes no progress over decades, there is certainly the possibility that the person’s repentance is not sincere. If a person truly tries to repent, he or she will really make every effort to “sin no more” as the Savior stated. But we do sin throughout our lives. And sometimes it takes a long time to overcome a particular weakness in our lives. If we really try our best and endure in this process of trying, repenting, and pleading for help, I believe that a person can absolutely overcome something in his or her life.
As often as a person truly and sincerely repents of a sin, the Lord forgives that person as attested in the Mosiah verse. The problem is with the sincerity part. I have to examine myself consistently and question my own sincerity and effort in “crossing myself.” Christ asks nothing less.
Here are some more passages from the Book of Mormon that give additional light on the role of grace in this long process of being perfected:
“Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.” 2 Nephi 2:8
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” 2 Nephi 10:24
“Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.” Jacob 4:7
“And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.” Ether 12:24
“And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” Ether 12:26-27
“And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.” Moroni 7:2
“I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.” Moroni 8:3
“And may the grace of God the Father, whose throne is high in the heavens, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who sitteth on the right hand of his power, until all things shall become subject unto him, be, and abide with you forever. Amen” Moroni 9:26
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” Moroni 10:32-33
And this statement from lds.org:
“Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8-10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).
The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).”
http://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng
Elder Bednar, ever the precise speaker, said in 2004, “Thus, the enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement helps us to see and to do and to become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish with our limited mortal capacity. I testify and witness that the enabling power of the Savior’s Atonement is real. Without that strengthening power of the Atonement, I could not stand before you this morning.”
The list of statements like this from the leaders of the church is extremely long. Just do a search under the word “grace” on lds.org. There is not the room to even provide a representative sample here. But hopefully, what I have offered in a start.
The other thing I would suggest is that people read the article for which a link is provided in Sharon’s article. It’s premise is very different from what the critics are claiming here. It offers a perspective of a loving God who offers grace and love in extremely generous degrees to all His children.
Here is one “graphic” (why the quotes by the way, did you want to emphasize that it actually was a graphic?) done by a Mormon that doesn’t have the atonement in it either. Is this one manipulative too? Here is another… Here is a pretty one (with circles even) from lds.org that disappointingly doesn’t mention the atonement either. Better get on that right away.
@Aaron Shafovaloff
I do agree that the LDS Gospel is confusing to the average LDS member. However, the chart that you supplied is actually one for Sunday School, for children to have fun with. It may not necessarily represent doctrine. Just an observation.
If it was for kids, I missed the memo. I have been working on it for a week now. The eraser on my pencil is exhausted.
@Faithoffathers
Once again your quotes prove your opinions rather than the teachings of the LDS Prophets and Presidents regarding the doctrine of salvation.
Take for example:
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” 2 Nephi 10:24
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23
1. You cannot get that grace unless you can do all you can do.
What exactly must you do (this flows with the atonement here):
2. Repent of all your sins & keep all the commandments:
“And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits. Helaman 14:13
Grace is only available when you (through the atonement) repent of all your sins. Repentance of all your sins begins at the very least at forsaking, not taking into account the remainder of the 6 steps of repentance. (cf. Gospel Principles, p.109, 2009)
3. Can you make sense of Prophet Kimball’s quote regarding repetition and repeated forgiveness:
A. “We can hardly be too forceful in reminding people that they cannot sin and be forgiven and then sin again and again and expect repeated forgiveness. The Lord anticipated the weakness of men which would return him to his transgression and he gave this warning (D&C 82:7)”. Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.360, 1969.
B. “Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.” (Mosiah 26:30)
A & B seems like a direct contradiction unless Mosiah 26:30 actually is not referring to the repetition of the same sin(that a person is aware of) that Prophet Kimball is.
So Mosiah is saying that if you continue the process of repentance(all your sins), and ask for forgiveness of sins that you have not known of previously, you can be forgiven. The Mosiah passage does not contradict Prophet Kimball. It’s not talking about specific sins repeated, but rather the discovery of new/other sins from study and learning (sins of commission and omission) and the forsaking of them. This is the repentance process.
Kimball is talking about the repetition of the same sin. This cannot gain anyone access into the celestial kingdom. It’s not every day, but repetition. What is repetition? Repeating it more than once. Since forgiveness is guaranteed at baptism on the repentance of all sin, then when does a person repeat the sin? After baptism.
“… they cannot sin and be forgiven and then sin again and again and expect repeated forgiveness
Sins are forgiven at baptism, if you sin again and again after that in the same sin that you’re aware of, you cannot expect repeated forgiveness.
In either case, you cannot get grace unless you’ve done all you can do, which is repenting of all your sins. Seems like an impossible gospel to me.
John 6: 25-29:
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Back to basics.
What FOF is presenting is his interpretation of what the Salt Lake City sect of Mormonism teaches about the “restored” gospel.
Fun fact: The SLC sect’s view of the “restored” gospel is not monolithic. In-other-words, there isn’t even agreement among the various Mormon sects, not affiliated with the SLC bunch, what the “restored” Mormon gospel is. So it’s all one big free-for-all.
……..And again. There is no evidence that what the SLC sect teaches ever appeared before Jo Smith and his magic rock came on the scene. This “gospel” which is suppose to represent first century Christianity is not in the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, the heretics, nor is it any where in the traditions of the Church.
I get a little worn out continuously writing this but it is the bottom line. These Mormon prophets and apostles were a bunch of low flying religious entrepreneurs who where clueless and those who follow them today are doubly clueless. They may as well procure their own magic rocks and have a go at creating a religion themselves. It would be about as effective is providing salvation but it would provide a lot of entertainment for them.
See the problem is that these SLC Mormons read the BofM, got emotionally turned on and thought they were hearing from God that (the BofM was true).
It doesn’t stop there. From that point on they have to accept everything in Mormonism as true. If the powers that be, in subsequent generations, don’t like what some of the loose cannons like Brigham Young taught, then those teachings which were doctrine at the time, become opinion or simply “folk” doctrine.
The amazing thing to me is that these folks jump on board this fantasy express based on what some guy, who they think is a prophet says, except when they don’t like it, then he’s just a guy who sort of went temporarily insane.
As Christians we can trace our salvation message directly back to the NT. What it says there is what we preach. Mormons have to depend on an ever changing message, which they say is revelation, but which has a shelf life and may expire at any given time.
You’d think these folks would catch on.
Thankfully many do. There are many of those folks who post here on a regular basis. I appreciate their testimony.
grindael,
Did you notice on that first “graphic” the large image of Christ holding His hands out? Did you notice the emphasis on faith in Christ. And I agree with the prominent place for the choice in “which voice we choose to follow.”
While the word “atonement” does not occur in the graphic, I think the role of Christ is represented fairly prominently.
The other graphics you link to are quite simple and are not meant to be definitive or comprehensive. The problem I see is that the complexity of the graphic included in this article suggest some degree of comprehensiveness. It is quite detailed and seems to provide tons of algorithms and points of diversion. Despite this, there is no allusion to Christ or His role. And I think that is manipulative and very unrepresentative.
RikkiJ,
You seem to be chosing only specific verses and statements upon which you base your final interpretation of our doctrine. I find this is the case with evangelical Christians in the doctrine of grace in the Bible. And you seem to have swept away most of the verses I provided and the other statements.
The argument that our doctrine maintains that the grace of Christ is only available to us after we repent of all our sins and keep all the commandments is simply and completely incorrect. The grace of Christ is available to us from the “get-go.” It is inherent in the very process of repentance. So repenting of all our sins assumes a continuous grace from Christ.
Consider these statements from leaders of the church:
“We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).” Dallin H. Oaks 1998 General Conference
What is the role of the Sacrament if grace is only granted after we are perfect? That makes no sense.
Here is another:
“It is evident that this grace, or enabling power, is accessed by faith. No wonder faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. Repentance is the second principle. The grace of the Lord through the Atonement can both cleanse us of sin and assist us in perfecting ourselves through our trials, sicknesses, and even “character defects.” We are both sanctified and justified through the grace of the Lord. (See D&C 20:30–31.) Truly, “as a man his sins confess, Christ, in mercy, manifests.” Remember, Christ can repair our flaws and failings that otherwise are not repairable. ” Gene R. Cook 1993 General Conference
“It is a diligent, devoted effort on our part that calls forth this empowering and enabling grace, an effort that certainly includes submission to God’s chastening hand and sincere, unqualified repentance.” D. Todd Christofferson 2011 General Conference
And then there are all the verses from the Book of Mormon which I quoted and you dismissed. One of my favorites is Ether 12:27, “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men who humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.”
Grace is inherent in the process of repentence. We cannot be made strong and clean with the Grace of Christ.
You can cherry pick all the verses you want from our canon and from the leaders. But it does not indicate you really understand or know our religion and faith.
This chart attempts to compare two gospels .One is what the New Testament records is the
gospel of salvation , and the other is the gospel introduced over 1700 years later by men
claiming to be directed by the same Jesus who directed apostles like Paul to go and preach .
Typical of the many false prophets in these last days , Brigham Young claimed that all other
“christians ” were like unbelievers when it came to how to receive the salvation of Jesus .
The gospel of salvation introduced by Mormon leaders is called ” the plan of salvation” . It’s an
elaborate plan when compared to the salvation message Paul taught . The Mormon version
of the gospel has been called a system of rules , laws, regulations , by complying with salvation
may be obtained . A Mormon has to earn , merit, qualify for salvation (eternal life ) by
individual effort. This is clearly a system constructed by men . In fact it’s been called their
“gospel ladder” . Each rung represents a necessary law, rule, regulation to do in order to make
the climb up to and enjoy eternal life [‘exaltaion” ] in God’s presence . There’s a lot of climbing .
One of the steps on the Mormon gospel ladder is faith in Jesus [ the Mormon version ] and after
that step the long upward climb begins . Mormons call their gospel the “plan of salvation” . In the
N.T. Jesus is the Way , only through trusting in Him and asking for His forgiveness can a sinner
become completely forgiven and be allowed into God’s presence in heaven forever . I see this
difference : in Mormonism Jesus came to show us the plan , the system of rules , to comply with
in order to qualify for eternal life . Mormonism does’nt bring us a Savior so much as a system
with Jesus being a part . A Christian looks to the scriptures and sees the truth of Jesus’ finished
work at Calvary , a Mormon looks to the “plan” and on Jesus’ example to inspire him to climb
those rungs . Jesus is more of a exemplar than a complete emancipator .
In short , it appears the “plan” is the way , as much or more so than the Man (Jesus) .
He is worthy , I am not worthy , I could never earn the blessings of living with Him in heaven
forever . Striving to be worthy and qualify for such by climbing a tall ladder of rules ,laws, is’nt
the way. The person of Jesus is the Way , only by His worthiness /righteousness can I receive
a full pardon for my sins and be given eternal life in heaven . Jn 14:6 ; Phil 3:9 ; Eph 2:8-10 .
Not all gospels are the same . False prophets in these latter days have been known to say that
they have the very same gospel that Paul preached [ Rom 1:16] . Yet upon close comparison
we notice they have mixed in their own ideas to it and then packaged that as the true gospel , the
same one Paul taught . They may even use phrases like ” the true gospel restored ” in order to
convince people it’s the same salvation message that Jesus’ apostles like Paul preached .
So beware. Gal 1:8-9 should be consulted before accepting gospels from any prophet/apostle
arising in these latter days .
The work of God is to believe in Jesus. This is clear, this is Jesus’s own words.
But so many still want to do more than that. They want some feeling that they have done something to warrant more in their life. The people in the story from John 6 asked Jesus how they could get the rewards he is telling them about. They ask about what they have to do to get it.
Jesus rebukes them directly– just believe, and rest in that belief. The belief endures, but the extras will always go bad.
At the end of the chapter of John 6, most people leave him and his teachings because they don’t get that it is resting in Jesus alone that gets one to God.
I believe the same thing is true today, and our Mormon friends are prime examples. The idea that belief is enough is foreign to them.
When you get a group of people who delight themselves with coming up with new and creative religious ideas, it will have appeal to some folks. These are the followers who are drawn to the shinny new object, the perfect bait.
It’s obvious that JS and those who followed him, grooved on new ideas and could spin, they thought, gold out of string.
There are two questions that we are discussing here. One is, “How does the Mormon gospel differ from that of normative Biblical Christianity?’ The other question is, “What is the Mormon restored gospel?” As I’ve pointed out, there is disagreement among the various sects of Mormonism as to what the restored gospel is. The restored gospel is also wide open to unending speculation not only by members of the various Mormon sects but also those who are not Mormons.
The message of salvation found in the Bible is simple and straight forward. Man is separated from God by sin. God made restitution, atoned for that sin by personal physical death, the shedding of blood. In order to receive the benefits of God’s sacrifice, a person must accept, through faith, what God has done for us. This is not something that is deserved or can it be earned. God offers it as a gift.
That is the consistent message that has been preached by believers for 2,000 years. It’s not changed or updated when someone feels they have a new idea.
So what does it mean to “believe?” Is it mental agreement that Christ is the Savior? How can that be? “The devils also believe, and tremble.” James 2:19
What good does it do if I say I believe my physician when I don’t follow any of his or her instructions or guidance? It doesn’t do any good. And in similar way, it does us no good if we merely believe that Jesus is our Savior without doing what He instructed us to do. That analogy could not be more fitting as Christ referred to Himself as the Physician.
The definition of “believe” is the core problem with the common misunderstanding about belief, faith, works, grace, salvation.
James goes on to say, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Both ideas- being saved by grace as well as being required to do works- can be reconciled to what I am claiming as true doctrine. But those cannot be reconciled to the position of many of the critics here.
I think Christ would have been very frustrated had His audience interpreted His statements as only requiring a person to mentally believe in Him for salvation. How in the world does one reconcile all the scriptures wherein Christ commands works? Sermon on the Mount (“whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doing them I will liken him unto a wise man who built his house upon a rock”).
Or the account of the young, wealthy man: “Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”
Hmm. Christ is saying it may seem impossible on the surface to meet the requirements of salvation. But with God, it is possible. Now you guys are trying to convince us that salvation requires only that a person believe and define “belief” as simply mentally accepting Christ as Savior without doing any works. That seems very contradictory.
Did Christ not command us to “cross ourselves?” Is that nothing more than believing as you guys are defining belief?
And by the way, falcon, your claim that your take “is the consistent message that has been preached by believers for 2,000 years” is absolutely amazing. I cannot understand how a person can make such a claim considering the 2,000 years of Christian history behind us.
But I agree that we do not earn or deserve salvation. Not even close.
FOF said,
The argument that our doctrine maintains that the grace of Christ is only available to us after we repent of all our sins and keep all the commandments is simply and completely incorrect. The grace of Christ is available to us from the “get-go.” It is inherent in the very process of repentance. So repenting of all our sins assumes a continuous grace from Christ.
The Judaizers says,
The argument that our doctrine maintains that the grace of Christ is only available to us after we are circumcised and keep all the commandments is simply and completely incorrect.
The grace of Christ is available to us from the “get-go.” It is inherent in the very process of circumcision . So circumcision assumes a continuous grace from Christ.
The apostle Paul says,
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Romans 3:28)
and
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
(Romans 11:6)
and
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:9)
FoF , you asked the question : ” So what does it mean to ‘ believe’ ? Is it mental agreement
that Christ is the Savior ? ” You asked that question yet proceeded to say that this is what
we believe . Has anyone here gave you this definition of ” believe” ? You say that those non
Mormons here are trying to convince you that : ” salvation requires only that a person believe
and define ‘ belief ‘ as simply mentally accepting Christ as Savior , without doing any works .”
Where has anyone on here defined ” believe ” [ in Jesus] as simply mental agreement ?
To believe in Jesus is to TRUST HIM to pardon and save you . This is a transaction that
happens when we surrender our will to Him , and admit our sin and ask for forgiveness. There
are no works required on our part to receive what results from this —eternal life .
Throughout the gospels it says to believe in Jesus , and in the epistles the same thing . To
experience an encounter with Jesus Himself and be forgiven of the weight our sin through
His mercy and grace alone , propels us to THEN do good works for Him , bring glory to Him .
Now you are correct in one thing and that is a correct understanding of the term “believe”
helps to know the truth about terms like “faith”, ” works”; ” grace”; and ” salvation” .
Lastly, you stated: ” But I agree that we do not earn or deserve salvation.”
If by ” salvation” , you mean that eternal life/exaltation can’t be earned , then that is not what
I have read from some of your leaders : Eternal life is earned by individual effort .
Why else is the Mormon “plan” of salvation called a ” system of rules ” laws, commands , even
a ladder , that must be climbed up to gain eternal life with God with it’s fullest blessings ?
It’s very important that the huge differences in gospels —- the “restored” one introduced by
Mormon apostles in the latter days , and the one preached by Jesus’ apostles which we find
recorded in the New Testament —- be clearly delineated so people can know . This ministry
gives people that chance .
fifth monarchy man,
Do you understand that I have presented the argument that it is not our works that save us? Paul is saying the same thing. Our salvation is not one the “basis of works.” We are justified by faith in Christ. Our works do not justify us.
It isn’t rocket science. It baffles me that this concept apparently confuses so many people.
No scriptures you have posted contradict anything I have said.
MikeR- I really am losing the motivation to explain this over and over. I have done so on each of the last 2 or 3 threads. We don’t believe we truly earn our salvation.
I really think it may be a matter of ability to understand concepts here. I can think of no other charitable reason for people not understand things that are really not that complicated. I suppose another possibility is that I do not communicate effectively.
FOF,
you said,
The definition of “believe” is the core problem with the common misunderstanding about belief, faith, works, grace, salvation.
I agree,
You understand faith as being added to works in order to earn salvation.
Christians following James and Paul and all the apostles see Christ using saving faith to produce good works in the already saved individual. Not as any way grounds for their salvation.
please read this following carefully
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
We are saved Grace through faith full stop
and Christ works in the saved person to do good works.
Salvation is all Christ from first to last at the same time if someone claims that he believes and yet has no fruit I have to question his faith.
An apple tree does not become an apple tree because it produces apples but apple trees eventually produce fruit.
This is all very simple.
The Gospel
peace
FOF said,
Do you understand that I have presented the argument that it is not our works that save us? Paul is saying the same thing. Our salvation is not one the “basis of works.” We are justified by faith in Christ. Our works do not justify us.
I say,
The Judaizers said the same thing too.
The rub is are we saved “apart from works”? Paul and all Christians would say yes
What would you say?
peace
Let’s see,
“And Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Did Abraham do anything to achieve righteousness other than believe? No! He believed…period.
What is the outcome of our faith? Eternal life.
What do Mormons believe about salvation? It’s a two fold experience. The first is universal salvation for all who have ever lived.
The second level is a works program where-by a Mormon man can become a god.
Now we can debate our Mormon friend all day long and he just can’t seem to comprehend that we’re not talking about the same type of salvation.
In the Mormon system, works are necessary to achieve personal deification. Since we aren’t talking about the same thing this discussion is futile.
Our Mormon friend would be better off having this discussion with other Mormons!
FoF, what happens to someone who believes but does not follow lds ordinances or other rules?
Our Mormon poster demonstrates, on a daily basis, that he has absolutely no understanding of the gospel of salvation as revealed in the Biblical text. Over and over again the writers in the NT say that people are saved by grace through faith absent any works that might contribute to the process. The NT tells us that those who are saved by faith demonstrate that faith by a changed life. That’s what being truly born again produces. It’s called sanctification and it follows justification.
So the Mormon poster is basically arguing with himself because what he’s presenting isn’t Christianity. What it is is Mormonism that has no relationship to what the Bible teaches about salvation.
Mormonism has no relationship to what the disciples of Jesus preached.
faithoffathers:
I am still unconvinced that your views can be resolved with the references that were provided by RikkiJ and myself. It might help if you addressed those references directly, detailing how they don’t imply what they seem to imply.
Citing contrary references, which I agree exist, only raises another problem. If all of these revelations are coming from the same divine source, then they should be consistent. This is true at least of the claims that are printed in official documents and/or communicated by a President of the Church while he is serving in an authoritative capacity.
I think we have both explained our positions as thoroughly as possible, so I’ll end my attempts here rather than risk badgering you (as I am prone to do). Thanks for the effort you have put into your comments. I appreciate that you are taking my concerns seriously. Also, I am grateful for the respect that you have shown me in our back-and-forth. I ask that you forgive me for not being as loving as I should; I still have a long way to go in that department. 🙂
@faithoffathers
“We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).” Dallin H. Oaks 1998 General Conference
The weekly renewal doesn’t specifically reference remaining sins after baptism or sins repeated.
As Kenneth was saying, you need to make a complete reconciliation with the entirety of what the Prophets, Apostles and General Authorities have taught as doctrine with the concept of repetitious sin. It simply doesn’t hold up.
About your quotation from James, Fifth Monarch Man condenses the gospel very well. I can add precious little to that but I’m still going to attempt it:
1. Faith produces works.
2. Grace by Faith is required for salvation.
3. Working to gain salvation is the opposite of grace(contrary to 2 Nephi 25:23):
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6, ESV)
4. Salvation therefore is only through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-10, ESV).
Do you understand that I have presented the argument that it is not our works that save us? Paul is saying the same thing. Our salvation is not one the “basis of works.” We are justified by faith in Christ. Our works do not justify us.
On the contrary, the LDS Prophets and Presidents clearly state that it is your works and your faith together that save you. But with this exception, without keeping the whole law, you cannot be exalted. Keeping it. It means doing it. Not just believing it, keeping it.
“But to be exalted one must keep the whole law … to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.” Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:6, 1954-156
“Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit – through the faithful performance of duty … … to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.” Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:5, 1954-156
How much clearer can you get? You must keep the entirety of the law.
Can a person who is repeating sins in any way shape or form be keeping the entirety of the law?