On May 16, 2013 Meridian Magazine (online) published an article by Mormon author Wallace Goddard titled, “The Restoration Plan of Salvation: ‘It Came From God!’” Dr. Goddard’s article is aimed at proving the superior beauty and cohesiveness of the Mormon gospel as compared to any others. He writes,
“It is my intent to help us appreciate the remarkable wisdom and graciousness of the plan [of salvation] taught by God Himself in the Restoration. It is worlds apart from any other plan…”
Dr. Goddard’s article “merely sample[s] a few key issues” on the topic. Below you will find an infographic co-produced by Mormon Infographics and Evidence Ministries. This presents a broader picture of the gospel “restored” by Mormonism. Below that you will find another infographic, this one of the Christian Gospel as set forth in the Bible.
These graphic displays illustrate that these two gospels are indeed “worlds apart.”
falcon,
Why not include the explanation of that statement passage about Abraham from James? Here is his explanation:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:21-24
James is demonstrating exactly what I am trying to articulate. He is showing that “belief” includes more than accepting Christ independent of works. It is more than what you guys are claiming. Works are inherent in belief. He was made perfect by faith. But works played a vital role in strengthening his faith. So works have a role in getting a person to the place where they have faith to be saved. Therefore, works are required for salvation. But they do not, of themselves, do any saving.
(By the way falcon, do you think any of your bias is revealed by your reference only to mormon males becoming gods? Is there an attempt to conjure negative feeling based on perceived sexism?)
MJP- the same thing that will happen to people who do not follow Christ’s instructions on the Sermon on the Mount. The same thing that will happen to the young man who is unwilling to sell all that he hath and give to the poor when commanded by Christ. If we do not follow Christ, we cannot become what He wants us to become.
Kenneth- I agree with all the statements you have posted. But at the core of every one of them is the idea of repenting of all our sins. I fully believe that. We are “freely” forgiven when we repent. Our debt to justice is not held against us for the sins we have committed but of which we have repented. I have never read one verse or statement that says we may leave some sins unrepented of (poor grammar, I know).
Why did Christ tell the women taken in adultery to “go and sin no more?”
It is not that our works save us. It is that if we do not repent, we cannot be covered by the blood of Christ and will have to pay that debt ourselves.
I am far from perfect. I do try to repent every day. But I still fail. I attend Sacrament Meeting every week and partake of the bread and water in remembrance of the blood and body of Christ. And I renew my covenants with Him. But I still make mistakes and sin. But I believe that as I continuously repent- daily- His grace enables me to overcome my natural tendencies over time. And even though I fall over and over and over and over in trying to refrain from cursing or not being perfectly honest at times, etc. I really hope that one day I will curse for the last time. And at that point, I will have repented and been made perfect in that particular temptation by the grace of Christ. Make sense?
And each time I curse could be my last. So as I repent, I am continuously made perfect in Christ, as long as I am sincere.
And at some point, I will cease committing that sin. And there will be no repetition.
Another point that should be recognized is the difference in our belief about what happens after this life. I do not believe we will be judged immediately upon our death. As you know, we believe in a Spirit World where the spirits of all men go between death and the resurrection, resurrection being that time when we will be judged. The process of our perfection will continue after this life. That may sound crazy and unthinkable. But it will.
On the other hand, most Christians I know believe that judgement occurs right after death. So this is a big difference that is relevant to our discussion.
In saying that, I do not mean to suggest that we can wait until after this life and then repent. I do not believe that for a second. But the direction we are headed toward as we leave this world will be very important in that Spirit World. It makes some sense to make an assessment of a person’s effort to repent as a trajectory that continues. And for this reason as well as the fact that we never know when our lives will end, we are to continuously repent and “endure to the end.”
So I totally agree with President Kimball. We need to overcome all sin through the atonement of Christ. His grace is the only way we can overcome our sins and naturally depraved tendencies.
The alternative view is, in essence, that Christ will simply ignore our sins because we believe He is our Savior and do something equivalent to waving a magic want that will completely change our natures and take away our desire to sin just before we enter heaven. There is really no other alternative I can think of because we know that no unclean thing can dwell with God. And our effort either is required or it isn’t.
And if our effort to repent and overcome sin is not required, and if it is really all a matter of Christ instantly changing us before we enter the gates of heaven, what in the world is all this about? Why didn’t God just create the people He wanted in heaven and create them how He wanted them? What would be the value of our experience on the earth? You could say that it shows the love of God. But if our development and growth doesn’t really matter, how is that love?
I believe the most enlightening parallel to God’s grace, mercy, and love is found in the relationship between an earthly mother and father and a child. And how many good, loving parents do you know that do not consider that child’s effort in administering rewards, leniency, gifts, privileges, etc.(beyond the basics of shelter, food, clothing)?
Hope this makes sense.
Thanks.
Again, why is the word graphic in quotes? That is rather idiotic. Also In the graphic that Sharon posted, there are numerous pictures of Christ, and Christ is mentioned by name in the graphic. So your conclusion (because he isn’t BIG) is rather lame.
Sorry, but that is NOT what you said originally. You said, “At least I cannot see the atonement of Christ in this graphic.” Christ IS represented in the original graphic, two or three times, by word and picture. Sorry, but your argument is silly and applies to all the Mormon ones as well. (Have you chastised them thoroughly yet? Better get on that.)
You did not give the qualification of simple in your analysis. So that is adding on after the fact. You said that because the atonement wasn’t represented in the graphic, then it was, what did you say, oh yeah, “manipulative”,” “ridiculing”, and a “caricature”. So that should apply to ALL such graphics. “Tons of algorithms?” Really. TONS? LOL. It’s actually a VERY SIMPLE FLOWCHART, easy to follow (with arrows even) except of course for those that WANT it to be something it’s not… complicated … or because it isn’t made with pretty circles. Is there really ANYBODY that won’t understand what is meant by “saved by grace” or who provided the grace? I doubt it. What I haven’t seen is any denial that any part of the chart is false. (Also, try clicking on the graphic a few times to enlarge it. That might help you see it better, and the pictures of CHRIST in the graphic).
Hmmm. Have you read this?
3 Ne. 18: 28-29
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
So, if you are “in sin” while partaking of the sacrament, remember:
The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance:Alma 45:16;
( D&C 1:31; )
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received
So, do all Mormons repent before every Sacrament meeting? If so, how can one tell if they have forsaken the sin and are worthy to partake of the sacrament?
Interesting questions…
How is anyone in the church to know who to “forbid” in relation to the sacrament? Where is the “gift of discernment”. I never once saw a Mormon Bishop use it. Not in 13 years.
I appreciate all of the work that my fellow posters have done in compiling information and clearly pointing out what Mormon authorities have said in the past. This may have real value in bringing a Mormon reader to the conclusions that Mormonism is a mess of contradictions and superfluous/false claims and therefore these leaders and what they say can’t be trusted. I prefer that Mormons read the NT to find salvation rather than what their false prophets have proclaimed.
There has been an opportunity to clearly point out that Mormonism’s plan of salvation is nothing like what God’s servants have presented in the NT.
Whether the Mormon system depends on “grace” or not is irrelevant because the Mormon system with its plan of salvation leading to deification of male Mormons is not only false but a joke, a fantasy, and the result of the mental meanderings of a bunch of rank amateurs playing religion.
If a Mormon lurker reading this can come to an understanding of what God has provided for us in the NT and how it contrasts with the Mormon false plan of salvation, they will clearly see the pathway to salvation and eternal life.
FOF said,
The alternative view is, in essence, that Christ will simply ignore our sins because we believe He is our Savior and do something equivalent to waving a magic want that will completely change our natures and take away our desire to sin just before we enter heaven.
I say,
almost correct. The Father will not recon our sins against us because we are in union with Christ and we receive a completely new nature when we are saved it’s called being born again.
Then Christ will sanctify us from that time forward by removing remaining sin in our lives. again all of Christ none of us
The Gospel
you say,
James is demonstrating exactly what I am trying to articulate. He is showing that “belief” includes more than accepting Christ independent of works.
I say,
I’m sorry that is not at all what James is saying. James is saying exactly what Paul and all Christians say.
He is saying that If your faith does not result in works it is not saving faith. Abraham’s faith was reckoned as righteousness before he offered Isaac on the alter full stop.
Then as always happens happens his saving faith produced the fruit of obedience.
but lets be very clear about this his he was not “saved” because he offered Issac on the alter. He was saved because he believed God.
Then He offered Isaac on the alter because he was “saved”………
A cottonwood tree doesn’t become an apple tree by producing apples God makes apple trees
and apple trees produce fruit
That is the Gospel
peace
It is more than what you guys are claiming. Works are inherent in belief. He was made perfect by faith. But works played a vital role in strengthening his faith. So works have a role in getting a person to the place where they have faith to be saved. Therefore, works are required for salvation. But they do not, of themselves, do any saving.
There is really no other alternative I can think of because we know that no unclean thing can dwell with God. And our effort either is required or it isn’t.
FOF,
You wrote:
(By the way falcon, do you think any of your bias is revealed by your reference only to mormon males becoming gods? Is there an attempt to conjure negative feeling based on perceived sexism?)
I don’t know. I’ll let you judge my intentions because you seem to have an ability to read minds and make inference regarding the intentions of what the Christians write here.
I’ll let the women who are former Mormons who post here comment on whether or not the Mormon system of salvation is inherently sexist.
We know that the Mormon system is inherently prejudice against those who have dark skin, not allowing them for years to enter into the priesthood which is vital to a Mormon male becoming a Mormon god.
As to what James wrote regarding works, you have no understanding of the plan of salvation as it is revealed in the NT so what in the world would I really care what you have to say about it? You’re applying James to the Mormon system of men working to become gods and the necessity of works to accomplish that. That’s a false gospel.
The NT tells us that we can do nothing to deserve or earn salvation. The provision for salvation is set by God and requires that a person have faith in the finished work of the cross by Jesus the Christ. How we behave following being born again is testimony to our faith; a changed life. It adds nothing to what Jesus did for us in taking our place since we deserve the death penalty.
Sanctification is a process, not an event. God continually cleanses us from our unrighteousness. Leading a life that is pleasing to God and that reflects His holiness is essential for those of us who have placed our faith in the Lord Jesus. It’s a result of being born again by the Spirit of God. We walk in the Spirit and in so doing crucify the desires of the flesh. The result is a manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit.
We contribute nothing to our salvation.
You say,
So works have a role in getting a person to the place where they have faith to be saved. Therefore, works are required for salvation. But they do not, of themselves, do any saving.
I say,
How is this any different than what a judizer would say?
You say,
There is really no other alternative I can think of because we know that no unclean thing can dwell with God.
I say,
How about God does the cleaning instead of us and then clean things produce fruit. The Gospel
You say,
And our effort either is required or it isn’t.
I say,
read it again please perhaps it will sink in
quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
peace
Speaking of what is essential in works for a Mormon male to become a god, I was wondering if Joseph Smith was that into the Word of Wisdom. I know about his adultery but what about all of the dietary requirements? I don’t think Joseph Smith was good enough to become a god. I personally don’t think he did enough.
“The Word of Wisdom is selectively adhered to by the majority of LDS faithful, for example eating meat sparingly, in times of famine and winter is rarely followed.[2] Meat is served at nearly every church function regardless of season. Some of the advice has not been shown by science to be of any type of health benefit, while others have been disproven. As a health code, the Word of Wisdom is incomplete and does not address most good practices one must follow in order to maintain a healthy body, and is even at odds with modern science when it comes to drinking wine in moderation.[3] Joseph Smith himself did not always keep the Word of Wisdom,[4] nor did a majority of the church members at the time Joseph Smith was alive. The Word of Wisdom has been repeatedly interpreted in different ways since it was first introduced to the body of the church, leading to a great deal of confusion among the members. For example, the text specifically forbids “hot drinks” and yet only certain hot drinks are disallowed. In a similar fashion, most of the tenets contained in the Word of Wisdom are unclear, leaving the members to speculate and debate the finer points of the law. Also, those elements of the WOW that are true, were known long before Joseph received the WOW revelation.”
http://www.mormonthink.com/wow.htm
Yea, speculate the finer points of the Law. I think Jesus addressed that with the religious leaders of his time. What’s clear to me is that any Mormon who drinks coffee on a regular basis is not going to become a god!
This is what “law” brings. People begin to focus on how they can break the law and still be on the good list. Pretty soon the emphasis becomes behavior rather than faith. These systems become oppressive and leads to pressure to perform for the benefit of the group. Galatians is a great letter where Paul addresses faith in Christ as opposed to faith in the Law.
So, FoF, works are required. Belief alone is not sufficient. And nor is doing works outside of the LDS mission. Is that correct?
What of Romans 1:18-20?
@Faithoffathers
“And at some point, I will cease committing that sin. And there will be no repetition.”
The quotes I have listed do not accept stopping repetition. Stopping repetition means you’re already guilty of repetition. They only accept non-repetition.
“True repentance does not permit repetition…” Prophet Spencer Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle, p.181, 1972
When you stand at the bar of the Father and the Son, at the end of your probationary test of mortality and you are asked, what proof you can give that you repented: will you say that you have repeated the sin, or you haven’t?
The surest test of repentance is non-repetition of the sin. Ceasing to repeat the sin after repeating the sin, is still evidence that you have repeated the sin.
How do you reconcile keeping all the commandments until the end of your life with repetition and sacrament service?
Your understanding of repetition doesn’t really explain the following statements:
“If a man will enter into life, then he must abide in the law of the gospel, keeping all of the commandments to the end of his mortal life. This is the doctrine of the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:34, 1955
Can someone keep all the commandments and still break them and repent? Is that keeping all the commandments?
Your paradigm must tie in with the entirety of all what the prophets and presidents have taught in the LDS Church.
As far as James goes, I believe falcon and fifth monarchy man have explained enough. Remember what James writes about works, you have to reconcile this with this verse:
“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6, ESV)
Works is a product, not a requirement of faith.
@faithoffathers
“The process of our perfection will continue after this life. That may sound crazy and unthinkable. But it will.”
If you have achieved perfection in this life, you can continue the exaltation process in the next. But if you haven’t reached perfection in this life, then your statement is really incorrect, as it is not what your prophets and president have taught. Please read this:
“This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (MATT. 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.”
“Perfection really comes through overcoming… Christ became perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality.” Prophet Spencer Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.209-210, 1969
I hope I’m not responding to you with too many comments, but I just want to ensure that as a true Mormon you understand and follow true doctrine. Thanks for bearing with me.
“For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.” Alma 34:32-33
Christ “waving a magic wand” and all of us believers being saved is really a beautiful thing, don’t you think? It shows far more grace than what your faith demonstrates.
Think about what exactly you are saying about God before responding.
fifth monarchy man,
You believe that no effort on our part is required to be cleansed from sin and to be perfected? If so, we will simply have to agree to disagree.
The passage form Ephesians agrees with me. It does not contradict what I am saying. I don’t think you are seeing that. “Grace through faith.” James discussed very clearly how works strengthened Abraham’s faith. And it was his faith by which he was saved. Therefore, works contributed to his faith. Without works, he would not have had enough faith to be saved. Make sense?
MJP- Yes. Works are required. But they don’t do the saving. And works are implied or inherent in belief. Works strengthen our faith. And we are saved by faith.
I am not sure what you are saying regarding “works outside the LDS mission?” Could you explain.
Romans 1 is speaking of living by faith. Nothing there contradicts what I am saying. Not sure of your point.
RikkiJ- yes. True repentance, or perfect repentance, results in no repitition of the sin. And once I repent perfectly, I no longer commit a sin. It takes time, usually, to get it right. I can repent of not repenting fully in the past. Make sense?
Fundamental to all the commandments is to repent. Repentence is one of the commandments. In fact, it is the one thing Christ commanded more than anything else. So keeping the commandments includes in a very big way repenting. It does not mean we never sin.
And what I am saying is perfectly in line with the passage from Romans 16. Grace is not a direct result of works. It is based on faith. But works strengthen our faith. This is what is explained in James 2 in the case of Abraham. That passage could not be clearer.
The statements from Spencer Kimball do not contradict what I am saying. We must repent in this life. We cannot wait until the next. But if we repent in this life, that process is not over at death. The process of perfection goes on. If we do not repent in this life, we won’t be given a pass and the opportunity to make things right in the next.
MJP- being changed in an instant from a wicked nature with minimal effort to overcome that nature into a perfectly clean state with no desire to sin is completely contrary to God’s nature. Without repentence, we simply cannot be made clean.
Ah, FoF,
I appreciate the dialogue, but I must say that you miss the glory of God’s power when you take it upon yourself to do works that you say God requires. You miss the entire point. It really is simple, and if you want to chalk it up to God waving a magic wand, that’s fine. But it really is that easy. Believe, and you shall be saved. Nothing else is required.
I mentioned that people should read John Chapter 6. This is where Jesus performs the miracle of the loaves and fish to feed the 5,000. In the entire chapter, though, he chides his followers for not believing. He directly tells them that all they have to do is believe. And he tells them after they ask what they have to do. I am not sure it gets any clearer than that.
What you are doing is turning his response on its head. You say that yeah, you need to believe, but to really believe you have to work. That goes directly against what Christ said.
The rest of the chapter talks about Christ being the bread of life, and to believe in Christ is to get eternal life. Several times he states, “Believe in me and you will have eternal life.” He chided them for not believing, for wanting more. Remember the miracle at the beginning, and him walking on water. The people saw these things and still wanted more. But Jesus ends by saying this, starting in vs. 60:
“60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.”
The spirit gives life, and the flesh counts for nothing. The words he spoke are full of spirit and life. And started by saying that we are to believe to fulfill the works of God. Keep in mind that this is not a single verse– this is an entire chapter. This is not Paul giving an opinion. This is Jesus of Nazareth speaking these words, claiming to be bread from heaven that gives eternal life to all who simply believe.
Is it hard, as the people say? Perhaps, but not if you realize its simplicity and beauty. Keep in mind that God is a all powerful being, who can do his will. You ask what’s the point? The point is providing a way to reunite his creation with him. Its only difficult if you allow it to be.
Man has a problem of getting in the way. Get out of the way and know God. As Jesus said, the work of God is to believe. Don’t be like the people in this story who demand more than what is plain to them. They just witnessed Jesus feed 5000 people from nothing, and then he walked on water. Yet, they demanded more. Don’t be one of those people.
I’m posting this here also, because it is relevant to this discussion.
I would like to make clear that I personally think that many Mormons do good works because it is in their hearts to do so. The problem is not with this. The can never do enough of them to ‘earn’ salvation. The problem is with the hierarchy of the Mormon church who has instituted forced regulations (their “commandments”) as a kind of cattle prod for those members who they deem are “weak in the faith”. The continued failure of the Mormons to “redeem Zion” and the excuses they give that the church as a whole has NEVER been “worthy” of living the “higher law” to do so is a perfect example of this. If there are (as I believe) many Mormons who are truly sincere to do good works, then there should be a whole lot of them living the Mormon “law of consecration”. The church Hierarchy should have (long ago) instituted it, and those that could not live it should have been ejected from the church. But the Mormons claim that God has “compromised” for the sake of the unrighteous (the dogs that Shem describes) and so God’s whole church is now living a “lower law” because of it. This kind of thing was all done away with because of Christ, and His Grace. This is what the problem with Mormonism is. Forced regulations instituted by men for the sake of their own consciences, and under the guise of some eternal “plan of salvation” that totally contradicts the message of the Christ. This was anathema to the church in Paul’s day, as it is today.
Everyone remember,
FOF is doing his works in a prescribed religious system so he can become a god. That’s the point of his brand of Mormonism. He just piggy-backs on to the Bible and attempts some strange sort of overlay attempting to make the NT, especially, relevant to his fantasy religion. It’s really a Vulcan Mind Meld sort of approach.
What he is talking about, again, has nothing to do with Christianity. We can go to the NT and find the gospel we preach, as it has been preached for 2,000 years. Mormons like him can’t find a connection anywhere to the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers or the history and traditions of the Christian Church.
He’s following some fools who couldn’t theologically spell “cat” if they were spotted the “c” and the “t”.
This is why the Bible is the enemy of Mormonism. How many Mormons have we heard from who began to read the NT with fresh eyes and ended up leaving Mormonism. They connected the dots realizing that there is no Mormonism in the Bible.
It is so simple and yet Mormons like FOF can’t see it.
MJP,
Your point is perfectly expressed by the forced regulations of tithing and the Word of Wisdom in Mormonism.
If a Mormon knowingly breaks the Word of Wisdom for his entire life, then he will not inherit the “celestial kingdom”. He can’t, because he is in rebellion against God’s “anointed” who instituted the regulation. Regardless if it is a weakness of the flesh, it doesn’t matter. They are condemned by the law.
But in Jesus Gospel, his Grace is sufficient, because Christians do not believe that drinking alcohol, smoking, eating meat, or anything else of itself is a sin. Mormons have made the partaking of such things a SIN. But the sin is – if you believe it is wrong and do it anyway without conscience or remorse or to excess.
“Therefore” says Paul, “do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)
But that is exactly what the Mormon Hierarchy does. Judge people for what they eat or drink, or pay, or the choices they make in marriage (or lack of), and a host of other things. But a true apostle of Jesus, said,
Paul says that the forced regulations like the Word of Wisdom DON’T WORK. The Mormon “Plan of Salvation” is one giant forced regulation. In a nutshell, here is what Christians believe verses the Mormon system of regulations:
The Spirit of God teaches us to say “no” to ungodliness and worldly passions, not forced regulations. We no longer NEED regulations, because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, who took upon himself our sins, and so we live under His Grace, transformed by the Spirit and EAGER TO DO WHAT IS GOOD, without the cattle prod of forced regulations. This is why the Mormon “temple covenants” are totally redundant and non sequitur under the New Testament Covenant of God’s Grace.
grindael,
Help me out here. What about Mormons who say they will “do the work” in the next life. Some how they’re under the impression that the “You Can Be A God Too” can be accomplished after death.
This is the problem with these sects that have some sort of prescribed formula that if followed, ends in some sort of reward. People start messing around the edges coming up with all kinds of ideas that, when you think about it, have as much validity as anything the leadership comes up with.
The Bible is irrelevant, totally, to the SLC and FLDS Mormon sects who have a Fraternal Organizational approach to religion.
Grindael, I agree. They have created a system of regulatory meritocracy that Jesus sought to destroy. I think this is simply because it is easier to be able to see what works one has done to be able to say, “I deserve it.”
Its about pride, ultimately. And they force themselves into a pretzel explaining it away. I particularly love this comment from FoF, “But I agree that we do not earn or deserve salvation. Not even close.” The reason I love it is that what is unsaid in this comment is that without the works, though, you are left out in the cold. So, you end up with a situation where your works don’t mean a thing, but without them your faith means nothing. Surely, then, the works mean at least something, or the failure to do them would not result in you being left out.
But its about pride because works are visible and tangible. They become check marks or feathers in a cap to accumulate. Its simply easier to rest in that which can be measured than on pure faith. Pure faith requires the complete abandoning of one’s efforts to prove something. Faith is not faith if you know the answer by measurable results. Faith is the hope that something is true. Faith is believing that the something is true.
This is what Christ told his followers in John 6. But when confronted, they chose not to believe because they would not see what was plain before them. It is harder now to believe when we have not seen Christ’s miracles up close and personal. We can only read about them. What Mormonism offers is something more tangible in the form of what essentially becomes a score card. “Yes,” they say. “Believe. It is Christ who saves. But in order to prove your faith, you must do X, Y, and Z.” By completing X, Y, and Z, they can then rest on their completing these tasks. And I am sure it feels good, comfortable, and right for them to do so.
However, that is not what God tells us to do. He tells us to give everything up for Christ’s sake. He tells us to believe. He tells us it is harder for men to give their things up than it is to believe fully in him. This is not just monetary things– it is everything. Nowhere (that I know of) does he say it is OK to stay in your current state of mind or with your current set of values. He tells us to leave it all behind and follow him. He tells us that he is the law, and he has fulfilled it. Again, he tells us the work of God is to believe, and that was in response to a question of what must be done to achieve eternal life.
I do understand how this is in truth difficult. We all like to get pats on the back and see our progress. In our work, at home, with our friends, we always strive to get positive feedback. Christ tells us to leave that all behind and have faith in him. He tells us to get uncomfortable, not by doing things we don’t like doing, but by trusting completely in him and in him alone. That is a scary thing to ask, because we have no way to know how we are doing.
This is why a regulatory meritocracy is easier for many than a system based on faith alone. Seeing the check marks provides assurance that is not there otherwise. But faith is not supposed to be easy. Nonetheless, the power and peace one finds when he gives his life to Christ on faith and faith alone cannot adequately be put in words.
I pray that our LDS friends who post here or visit here without posting can see this truth. We as humans can twist things around to fit our desired outcome. But that is not what God wants. God simply wants us.
I just took some time and carefully looked at this flow chart for Mormonism. People like me, Grindael, jaxi, etc. will be in outer darkness according to this. Well I say that I stepped out of the darkness and into the light of Jesus. I was dead spiritually as a Mormon. I am exhausted just following the arrows. Didn’t Jesus say His yoke is easy and His burden is light?
It never ceases to amaze me when Mormons throw out that one verse in James (out of context) yet completely ignore the rest of the entire NT on the subject of works and faith. There is so much twisting of scripture on this thread by our LDS friend. How much works is enough to gain the celestial kingdom? How does a Mormon know if they will ever do enough? This works based religious system is not the gospel of Jesus.
I have been out of Mormonism for 3 years now and have been studying Christianity for a few years. The more I learn, the more I realize that Mormonism has no foundation in Christianity whatsoever. Mormons may use some Christian words (obviously with different meanings) but don’t be fooled, Mormonism is not a restoration of Christianity. I didn’t bother learning about Christianity as a Mormon because it was all apostate anyway. I would suggest lurkers study Christianity, read the writings of the early church fathers, get into the NT , even read about the heretics. There is no Mormonism found in any of it. Mormonism is the creation of a fantastic story teller ( Joseph Smith’s mother brags about this in her journal) who brought about a religion with the help of a magic rock. I can’t understand how people believe this, had I known about this growing up, I would never have believed Joseph was prophet. Then again, people believed Jim Jones and David Koresh.
Grindael
I was not implying that Mormons only do good works because they have to, that solitary sentence to which you refer was my simple way of summing up Mormon doctrine, & it was not directed at the individual members. Many people of all faiths or even no faith do good works because they want to & I was doing nothing more than contrasting the Mormon way of salvation with Gods way. Perhaps if anyone cares to read my post in its entirety that much might become clear. The whole tenor of my argument was that no matter how Shem or any Mormon for that matter, attempt to say otherwise, Mormonism teaches salvation through works.
[Old Man, I only wanted to clarify this very concept, I wasn’t implying that you thought anything else. I personally think that you feel the same way that I do about it. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear about that. I only wrote what I did, because I felt your comments would be taken out of context. And it was. See below. -grindael]
MJP,
Belief without works contradicts much of what Christ taught. But what I am claiming does not contradict it. The problem I see is that people do not see the word “belief” as Christ saw it. You can’t say you believe your physician if you do not follow his instructions and counsel.
John 6 describes how a lot of people followed Him across the water because He fed them food and filled their bellies. He points out that they really did not believe what He was teaching them. He spends a great deal of time explaining how He is the bread of life, and if people do not eat His flesh, they cannot have eternal life. And this is a clear reference to His sacrifice and the Sacrament- remembering Him, renewing our covenants, and repenting. And we do this every week. That chapter only reinforces what I am saying. Does a person only eat food to nourish the body once? No. It is a continual process.
To the rest of the group here- how in the world do you think you can judge the heart of anybody else? Are you seriously comfortable claiming that a group of 14 million people only do good things for selfish, prideful reasons? That it astonishing to me that you take that position.
A person can certainly take things and turn them upside down. I can see a person who tries to keep the commandments of God, serve other people, resist temptation, give of himself to other people all the while judging that person in my heart because I believe all those things are done to lift himself up above other people. But I seem to remember a fundamental teaching of Christ about judgment and self-righteousness. How do I know that the person is not trying to resist temptation because he feels shame and guilt for causing the Savior to suffer for sin. How do I know that person’s heart is not filled with love of God and his fellow man and that this is what motivates him? I don’t. But I assume the role of judge in feeling this way and thinking these things.
You ironically speak of people having to go to extreme places to justify their faith and religion. I suggest all of us might spend some time looking in the mirror.
“To the rest of the group here- how in the world do you think you can judge the heart of anybody else? Are you seriously comfortable claiming that a group of 14 million people only do good things for selfish, prideful reasons? That it astonishing to me that you take that position.”
Absolutely not. First, only about 5 million are active and I don’t believe they are doing it for selfish, prideful reasons, I believe they have been led astray by men who get them to do this works based system for control, power and money. Good people are being led away from the true, simple gospel and the true God of Christianity. I am sure there are some men who are chomping at the bit to become a polygamist god and rule his own planet, but for the most part Mormons are striving (by their own works) for Salvation/exaltation. Sadly the Mormon pyramid scheme doesn’t Save. Just about everyone I know are LDS and they are good people who are spiritually dead. Mormons don’t know the Jesus of the Bible, they know the Jesus revealed in this dispensation by the prophet Joseph Smith (according to pres. Hinckley) they are not the same Jesus.
FoF, you have to put words into Jesus’s mouth to get where you are. Don’t you see that?
“And this is a clear reference to His sacrifice and the Sacrament- remembering Him, renewing our covenants, and repenting.” No, actually, its not. Its about realizing that the real miracle was looking at them and talking to them directly. His discussion of bread was began by the people demanding that Christ give them bread like Moses gave them bread. Christ rebukes them by saying that the bread of Moses was really from God, and that he is God and can provide bread better than what Moses gave them. See vs. 30-40:
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.””
They asked that he give them bread so that they can what? See it and believe. They are testing him. They wanted to see if he can something like what Moses did.
What’s Christ’s response? What Moses did was really from God, but real bread is from heaven and will provide eternal life.
They then ask for this bread, and Jesus tells them that he is the bread of life, and whoever comes to him will never be hungry, and whoever believes (there’s that word again) will never be thirsty.
The rest of the passage expands on this idea. He uses a graphic analogy to describe accepting Christ and believing in him to make his point. It is not a reference to completing works for salvation. It is not a literal, “You must eat my flesh to be saved” message. This is why in vs. 63 he tells them that the flesh means nothing rather it is the spirit that gives life.
See, Faithoffathers, you have to distort the meaning of the word “believe” to even go where you have gone. Believe is a state of mind and heart, it is not an action word that requires movement or work. It basically means to accept something as true. Its plain meaning is clear, and its use in context here is clear.
I have noticed you and other LDS have to alter the meaning of a word to reach the meaning you want it to have. You can’t do that. The words mean what they mean. And it is not contradicting anything else in the Bible to suggest that Christ is telling these people the works they need to do to be saved is simply to believe. A contradiction simply does not exist, and no distortion of words is needed to get to that conclusion nor is there a need to ignore other instructions.
And the analogy of the physician proves nothing. Doing what the doctor says may not save you. There are different opinions out there when it comes to health. There is not a second opinion when it comes to God.
As to your admonition against us judging the heart of another? First, the mirror you speak of should be consulted on this point. How do you know that we all are not doing what Christ tells us to do? How do you know our heart? Second, the only thing we can go by is what a person judges success by. It is clear that you do not judge success as involving faith in Christ alone. Faith in Christ means nothing to you unless you do YOUR faith’s works (getting baptized in a Baptist church is insufficient, for instance, and denying that Joseph Smith was a prophet is a bar to entry into the highest of kingdoms in your faith, too).
So, how do we judge your faith? With love and humility (I hope) we recognize that we cannot know your heart, but we have to call out what we see as heresies. Heresies are a bar to Christ’s kingdom, and we simply wish to help you on your journey to the truth. God calls us all to him, but not all will listen. We cannot change your mind, nor can we ourselves save you. But we can educate you about your faith and how it relates to ours.
With that in mind, understand that I believe Mormonism to be a problem. I do believe it is heresy. We cannot become Gods. There is only one God, not many, even if you only worship one. Works play no role in our salvation, unlike your belief that it is faith that saves but that faith is of little value without the specific works. I do not believe in a church that disappeared for millennia only to be restored by Joseph Smith.
I have no ill will to you or any Mormon. You are great people, and a joy to be around. But your faith is leading you astray. I cannot deny that, and would be doing you a disfavor I did not say so. I believe the gospel is very simple, and not complicated at all. Belief will save. Works do not. There is no need to put words in Jesus’s mouth to have his words fit a particular belief.
FOF,
I really appreciate you hanging in there with this thread. I hope it is giving you the chance to see why Christians are so passionate about this issue.
I would not trade free Grace for anything and I get personally riled up at the implication that God’s gift is somehow not sufficient for my salvation and I must add my own effort to it.
see Galatians 2:21
This thread has allowed me to understand better the mind of someone like your self thank you for that
If you don’t mind can you describe how your view is different than the Judiziers?
If you would please I’m asking you to give a list of things that they would affirm that you would deny and things that you would deny that they would affirm.
And please don’t get sidetracked on the circumcision issue. The disagreement was not about circumcision but about works verses grace. Remember Paul circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:3)and at the same time told folks that if they accepted circumcision that Christ would be of no value to them (Gal 5:2).
This is because the judizers thought that salvation was by faith plus works like circumcision.
I would like to know how your view is different than the folks that Paul was disputing
thanks again
peace
Fof F, you continually try to dress up the Mormon gospel of salvation to be the true gospel
of salvation , but it is’nt . Mormonism is not the Christian faith/gospel restored , rather, it’s
the christian gospel replaced . Mormon leaders have mixed in their own ideas to what true
apostles like Paul preached and then packaged that as the gospel of salvation .
The resulting amalgamation thus diluted the true salvation message which then rendered it
unable to save those you embrace it . Paul was speaking about Mormonism when he wrote
Gal. 1:8 . The New Testament records the true gospel that saves , and the people who accepted
it’s truths were forgiven , and received the gift of salvation ( eternal life ) and this centers around
Jesus . People today can read the N.T. and receive a relationship with Jesus and thus salvation
also . That’s the power of the true gospel —Rom 1:16 . You’re attempting to create a reason why
we should accept men 1900 years later who claim to have Jesus’ true message of how a person
can receive salvation . Sorry , but no thanks . What the former day Saints received from their
apostles as what was necessary to receive a right relationship with God and eternal life with Him
in heaven with the fullest blessings therein , stands in stark contrast to what latter day Saints
( Mormons ) been taught about this from Mormon apostles . These are two different apostles
with two different gospels .
Concerning where works and faith fit in the question of how a person is saved ( receives eternal
life ) , these two are like oil and water , they don’t mix . Watching you take so much time on this
thread in attempting to enlighten those here about how works are necessary is similar to
trying to mix oil and water . Hopefully you’ve run out of straw man tactics , and hopefully you
are winding down in your attempt to show that Mormonism is in the New Testament . This
is getting old .
Lastly, you asked the question of us here : ” To the rest of the group here….Are you seriously
comfortable claiming that a group of 14 million people only do good things for selfish prideful
reasons ? That is astonishing to me that you take that position.”
My question to you is : when did I personally make that claim and take that position ?
Falcon,
Mormonism is all over the board with this concept. For example, read my post about Amasa Lyman (with the 147 comments) to get a picture of the confusion about life after death, what goes on and who gets saved. Amasa Lyman was an apostle who did not believe in the saving power of the blood of Christ. He was of long standing in the church, chosen as a counselor of Jo Smith and called the “13th Apostle” because he was ordained to fill Orson Pratt’s spot after he (Pratt) had a brief run in with Jo (who made sexual advances to his wife) but then later “repented” and was readmitted to the Quorum. Lyman was then bumped out for a time until they dropped William Smith out in 1845. Lyman fooled the entire Church Hierarchy for many years. In 1853 he attended his first spiritualist seance. He then began preaching in secret that Jesus was just a “good man”. About 1866 things blew up. W. Woodruff wrote,
Lyman apparently believed that Jesus was only a “good man”, and had FOR YEARS and was preaching this on the sly. One of his really bad sermons even made it into the Journal of Discourses. (Which stupid critics of the Church try and use out of context). He was warned, and apparently told them he would behave. He did not. A month or so later W. Woodruff recorded again,
They did nothing here, except make Lyman write a statement that he was wrong and publish it. Didn’t work. He went back to preaching with all his “Apostolic Authority”. Then, during visits to smaller Utah communities outside Salt Lake City in the next few weeks, Lyman repudiated his confession and criticized the treatment he had received from his colleagues. While preaching a sermon in Fillmore, he “suggested that some would ask why he made [the confession] if his doctrines were true, and he said, ‘I did it to save being thrown over the fence to the dogs.‘” On another occasion, the apostle asked a man whether he would lie or be cut off from the Church, then he answered his own question: Lyman knew what he would do. LIE. (Francis Marion Lyman, Journal, Aug. 1867, LDS Church Archives.)
Four months later, in April of 1867 Woodruff records that,
They just didn’t know. They didn’t know what was in Amasa Lyman’s heart. There was absolutely no discernment here. They forgave him, and Lyman then laughed about it behind their backs, and kept preaching his odd doctrines and joined the spiritualist movement. He was finally disfellowshipped, but it wasn’t until three years later, in 1870 that Lyman was finally excommunicated. The diary entries of his son (who later became an apostle, and I quoted above) are of value in showing how much Lyman played them all.
Lyman denounced Brigham Young in particular and the Church in toto. He never went back. He joined the spiritualistic Godbeites and became their leader. This irked Brigham Young to no end. Even though the Book of Mormon states plainly that it is this life that one must perform all works that we will be judged by, his son Francis, as an apostle said that he felt that his father Amasa Lyman had “repented” in the Spirit world, and took it to Jos. F. Smith, and Smith “restored” Lyman’s former Priesthood, rank, apostleship, wives and all former blessings. This is what can be done for those that the Mormon Hierarchy favors. This is as you say Falcon, Fraternal Organization at its best.
MJP,
Did you think I believe Jesus was saying we need to literally eat His flesh and blood? Of course I don’t believe that. So how do we eat His flesh and drink His blood? Did He not teach us how in the last supper?
As I said before, I simply believe that you are missing the full meaning of “belief.” It involves action and work. You can’t claim to truly believe your physician if you do nothing that he recommends to be healed. That analogy is relevant because Christ Himself used it to represent His role as Savior and healer.
My point about judgement was addressed to those people here that are saying that members of the church only do good things for prideful, selfish reasons. I guess you did not understand that. No big deal.
fifth monarch man- the most obvious difference between us and the “Judaizers” is we believe the last and great sacrifice has been offered in the Son of God. We believe that there is no more need for the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sin.
Alma 34 explains this quite well. “For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away. And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal. And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.”
In the place of the shedding of blood, we learn from Christ in 3 Nephi 9, “And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings. And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not. Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin. Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.”
I suppose the next most important difference as I understand the Judaizers is that they believed they were saved by faith+works. As I understand my own religion, I believe we are saved completely by faith in Christ. And our faith is strengthened by obeying God and works. But those works and obedience contribute nothing directly to our salvation. Make sense? And without those works and obedience, our faith cannot be strengthened. Ultimately, it dies without obedience.
And we believe the Law of Moses was fulfilled entirely by Christ’s atonement.
MikeR- My comment was directed at those who make that claim. And none others. Sorry if you felt I lumped in with others.
To all those who believe that accepting Christ assures salvation with certainty independent of our subsequent actions- I have a simple question. Do you feel shame and guilt in your life after disobeying God or giving in to temptation? If you do, what role does that shame and guilt play? Is there a time when you will no longer feel shame and guilt? If so, when?
Thanks.
I believe this is my 6th comment today, so I had better make this one good :), right?
FoF, but no, belief does not include works or action. It simply doesn’t. Belief is indeed a state of mind and a state of the heart. Don’t put something in the word that is not there. The physician analogy is still off. I can indeed believe they are right (or wrong), and then choose to follow their advice (or not), but these are two different things. And I can go to a another doctor to get a different opinion. Belief and action are not the same, and you conflate the two. Yet you have to do this for your doctrine to be sound. You have to distort terms and meanings for your faith to work.
As to the Last Supper, that is a literal act, is it not? It is an act of the flesh, is it not? But what does Christ say about the flesh in John chapter 6? Concerning communion, at best, the reference to eating and drinking is foreshadowing– here it is not a command. And, by the way, you entirely avoided the rest of the discussion. Why? Do you not have a retort to the meaning of the text? Read it carefully, and follow the story step by step. Everything I have told you concerning the story is true. Jesus is telling these people to believe in him, and that believing in him will provide eternal life. (Don’t you think this would have been a great chance for him to have said something about works, if that was his meaning?)
As I have said repeatedly today, you have to distort things to make them fit your desired outcome. But it doesn’t work. Christ was clear in his teachings, and his message is consistent: believe in him, and you will be saved. Works are important, but irrelevant to salvation. You seem to agree, but say that faith is useless without works (again LDS approved works).
I doubt I will ever see you address these points head on. You will repeat yourself, or move the goal post, or claim the victim (which is what you are doing when you ask about judging other people’s hearts).
Which leads me to discuss your response to me on that one. I know full well your intent. But good intentions do not always lead to good results. I happen to believe that many LDS almost certainly do their acts with the best of intentions. But that does not negate my earlier comments that it is easier to count good acts than it is to rely on God’s grace alone. I do not believe they do their acts by counting each and everyone of them, but they know they are following what they are supposed to follow as prescribed by your faith. However, I also happen to believe that Muslims follow the acts prescribed by their leaders with the best of intentions. It is not the intention that matters, though.
Feeling good is irrelevant. Following rules is easy. Anyone can follow rules, but few can totally give up control in their lives to an unseen master. But that is what Christ calls us to do. What was his greatest commandment? To love God. His second? To love others. The law is summed up in those two commands. When Jesus tells us that the only work required to receive eternal life is to believe in him, I believe him. If the greatest command is to love him, and the only work required is to believe, how can anything else be required?
@Faithoffathers
“RikkiJ- yes. True repentance, or perfect repentance, results in no repitition of the sin. And once I repent perfectly, I no longer commit a sin. It takes time, usually, to get it right. I can repent of not repenting fully in the past. Make sense?”
I see where you’re coming from faithoffathers. But let me ask you this. What is the covenant that you take when you’re baptized? Don’t you take a covenant to keep all the commandments and repent of your sin?
When you do not keep that covenant, your sins return because you haven’t repented. It doesn’t really matter whether you repeat the sin 1 time or 382,539 times. You have broken celestial law.
No where does it say that if you do not repent, the sins return and then can be forgiven. For celestial glory, there is simply no slack. You’re trying to become God, and you must be perfect.
Repentance means forsaking the sin[period], not forsaking the sin and then doing it and then forsaking the sin.
Repeating the sin is evidence that you’ve not proven your repentance rather than proven your repentance with works.
The situation is hopeless, because no one can live a perfect life except the Saviour. Which is why Prophet Kimball states that the gifts of repentance and forgiveness are given to forsake the sin(among other things).
Apostle D. Todd Christopherson said, “For our turning to the Lord to be complete, it must include nothing less than a covenant of obedience to Him. We often speak of this covenant as the baptismal covenant since it is witnessed by being baptized in water Mosiah 18:10 The Divine Gift of Repentance, General Conference, October 2011
To put it properly, to repent perfectly, you cannot repeat a sin. Repeating a sin after you take a covenant at baptism to obey all the commandments, is breaking the covenant and not obeying all of celestial kingdom’s requirements.
It does take time to acknowledge, feel sorrow, confess, forsake and make restitution for sins you discover with prayer (according to LDS prophets and presidents). But you cannot without impunity repeat a sin and then expect to be forgiven. There simply is no slack for celestial glory. You must be perfect like Jesus Christ. He never sinned, and so that situation is hopeless for man, except for the covenant and conditional forgiveness at the baptismal font.
Hope this makes sense.
Repentance of not repenting fully in the past is a record of non-repentance. It’s a record of repetition.
One more thing, if you take a covenant at baptism to repent (not repeat the sin), and then you repeat it after you get baptized. You haven’t repented, since you’ve repeated the sin. Repetition applies not to the number of times but to as little as one time after you break the covenant with the baptismal oath. This is why in LDS Prophets and Presidents and GAs, the celestial kingdom is not an easy path.
Realistically though, it’s an impossible gospel.
FOF said,
the most obvious difference between us and the “Judaizers” is we believe the last and great sacrifice has been offered in the Son of God. We believe that there is no more need for the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sin.
I say,
Why do you think that the judaizers believed that sacrifices were still necessary?
Please provide a single verse to support your claim
The NT does not say they believed what you claim they believed.
It says they claimed
quote:
“It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”
(Acts 15:5B)
nothing about sacrifices.
These folks were believers (Acts 15:5) and considered themselves to be followers of an apostle (Gal 2:12)
Peter and the apostles did not dispute with the Judizers because they were still “shedding blood for the forgiveness of sins”.
On the contrary he said,
quote:
Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:10)
end quote
The dispute was all about saying works were necessary for salvation. nothing about the continuation of sacrifices.
I’m amazed that you miss this obvious fact
peace
You say,
And our faith is strengthened by obeying God and works. But those works and obedience contribute nothing directly to our salvation. Make sense? And without those works and obedience, our faith cannot be strengthened. Ultimately, it dies without obedience.
I say,
If I understand you you are saying
Our works strengthen faith which saves us through Gods grace.
notice that for you the chain begins with us
in opposition to this The Christian would say it works just the opposite
God’s Gracious gift of salvation through faith leads directly to our good works not the other way around.
did you catch that?
The true Gospel begins with God false gospels begin with man It is really that simple.
peace
FOF,
You keep telling us what Mormonism is, which is a system of works through which you hope to become a god. This is a false gospel with a false hope.
One more time; the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the NT, is salvation by grace through faith. There is nothing that can be added to it.
So what are you arguing with us about? We don’t believe in Mormonism. We believe in and accept what the Bible teaches which is salvation obtained by faith.
So please don’t tell us that the Bible is teaching something else because you don’t believe the Biblical message.
Frankly, you are dead in your sins. You have no hope in your current spiritual situation. This is a judgement based on what you have told us. We would be remiss if we didn’t plainly tell you this.
Oh FOF,
How long are you going to NOT GET IT? I like your question but not the preamble. There is where you went off the tracks. Don’t you LISTEN (figuratively in this case) to what people SAY? How many times does it have to be told to you that our actions have everything to do with our salvation?
Do Christians experience guilt and shame? I do. Why, because of the Holy Spirit. After I turned to Christ in 2006 my wife and I separated for a time. I felt that I needed to devote my entire life at that point to Jesus, so I could learn how to manage it. I joined the Salvation Army in 2007. I spent a year living in a rehab program (even though I had no addiction problems at that time except cigarettes which I quit then) which focused on spiritual training, and good works by helping the community. It helped me to focus my life spiritually. In that year, I had to deal with a lot of guilt and shame. But that is only because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
I worked closely with lots of men that had big problems with their lives. They didn’t understand how it was apparently so easy for me to live by the rules that were in place for the Center. We took in lots of donations and I was a truck driver. This was a very responsible position, because of the temptation of acquiring goods. (You would not believe what people donate). Some would steal, etc. These items were sold by the Salvation Army to support their Charitable Services. But you see, the Holy Spirit had transformed me into someone else. Divine nature. Did I still sin? Yes. No one is perfect.
In 2008 I took back my marriage. But living again with my wife brought new challenges. It is easy to slip into old habits (like arguments). It took awhile, but little by little, our marriage was transformed into something it never was in the ten years before this period. I took heart in the words of Paul,
How simple and lovely and praiseworthy is the Spirit of God that works inside of us and transforms us to the divine nature. No set of regulations can ever do what the Spirit does. Not in a million years. I know that everyday I feel less and less shame and guilt for my actions, because they are guided by the Spirit of God that is within me. I have been called of the Father, though Christ, and am assured of my reward. We only can do what we can do. We cannot feel shame and guilt for what we cannot do. The Spirit does not work through forced regulations. It never has. That is the whole point of GRACE.
Mormon Grace = only a guaranteed resurrection whether you are good or evil.
EVERYTHING ELSE, you have to EARN. You cannot be saved “in your sins”. You MUST become “perfect” or “live the PERFECT Celestial LAW” (a set of regulations) or you can’t attain that Kingdom, and you must live polygamy (a regulation) to attain the HIGHEST and become a GOD.
Christian Grace = believing in Jesus Christ. We are saved by his shed blood, which is the Grace of God. Good works are something the believers undertake because they are transformed by the Holy Spirit and born again. In no way is anyone’s salvation (or reward) based on any works that they do. When one is spiritually reborn, you are The Father’s and no one can pluck you out of his hand. You can do so yourself, by sinning against the Holy Spirit. Though we all struggle with sin, the Grace of God protects us from being separated from God, by God’s mercy though the shed blood of Jesus Christ who took upon Himself ALL of our SINS.
In Mormonism, the Atonement was only to fix the sin of Adam and give everyone a resurrection. That is ALL it does. Christ is only a token “Savior” in a long line of god-saviors that have been slain for every world because of the sins of their endless Adams, who MUST break a commandment to give all the gods spiritual children the opportunity to attain a mortal body. The Mormon Jesus died as part of a “plan”. If he didn’t do it, someone else would have been chosen. Mormons are actually worshiping their “Elder Brother”.
In Christianity, The fullness of the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. Jesus is the WORD of GOD, who was with the Father from the beginning. He became flesh to die for the sins of the world. This was a divine act of love. When Jesus was resurrected, He left us the Holy Spirit, who helps to transform us so we can take on the divine nature which is through faith and grace and belief in Jesus Christ, the Great High Priest and our Advocate with the Father.
Grindael
It seems to me that you’re working out your salvation through fear and trembling. You have made an effort to change and have done a good job. There seems to be a story in the old testament similar to yours but I don’t remember where. It was about a king who labored diligently to regain the trust of his people and he learned and then regained the trust of his people. very good story.
Clyde says
Grindael
It seems to me that you’re working out your salvation through fear and trembling. You have made an effort to change and have done a good job.
I say,
I’m sure that Grindael would want the entire passage to be quoted so that the credit goes where it is really due
quote:
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12b-13)
end quote
Grindael changed but it was really God who did the work.
Hallelujah
peace
Mormons really have trouble with this idea that we don’t/can’t have to do something to be saved.
I don’t know what’s so difficult about it. God sets the parameters of what eternal life is and what must be done to merit it. The NT reveals that we can’t do anything to merit eternal life or earn it.
So Mormons, unable to reconcile the idea that God requires nothing of us but to believe, mistakenly conclude the Christians believe that we can sin with impunity without any consequences. First of all sin will produce its own consequences. It’s the old “sowing and reaping” paradigm. It’s just the way it works.
There are three events or processes within salvation. First of all we are “justified” through faith in Jesus apart from anything we can do in regards to our salvation. Secondly we are “sanctified” by the Holy Spirit. This is the process of change in the life of a Christian who is born again (by the Spirit of God) through faith in Jesus. These are the “works” which are a result of our faith. We conform with God’s expectations. Finally, when we die and are with the Lord and are said to be “glorified”.
For a Mormon who isn’t interested in becoming a god (supposedly), Mormonism is a total waste of time.
Kate has pointed out the rather low number of Mormons who would be considered “temple” Mormons. Mormons claim 14 million members which has been shown to be about three times more than actually are active in the Mormon church. Of the remaining five million actually considered “active” those who are full-blown into the god-maker program demonstrates that it’s a rather hard sell.
When someone is being recruited to become a Mormon, it is not fully disclosed what Mormonism really believes. This bait and switch is just one more log to throw on the fire of discontent.
I will repeat a few questions that are of great interest to me. I try to answer the questions people ask me, for the most part. Please answer these questions for me:
1) Do you feel shame and guilt in your life after disobeying God or giving in to temptation?
2) If you do, what role does that shame and guilt play?
3) Is there a time when you will no longer feel shame and guilt?
4) If so, when?
fifth monarchy man- go back to the passage from James. It is very clear that works served to strengthen Abraham’s faith. There is an explicitly described causal relationship between works and faith in that passage.
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
Abraham’s faith was “made perfect” through works. The effect of works on faith could not be made more clear than this.
And this is not being “taken out of context” as somebody suggested above.
grindael,
I appreciate the experiences you share here. And I empathize with the struggles you have endured and overcome and learned from.
But I see in your post, if I understand you correctly, how little you really understand about our religion and faith. You said,
“Mormon Grace = only a guaranteed resurrection whether you are good or evil…….In Mormonism, the Atonement was only to fix the sin of Adam and give everyone a resurrection. That is ALL it does.”
Wow. It is really hard for me to understand how a person can spend so much time in dialogue with members of the church and come away with such a staggering misunderstanding of their faith. I have a difficult time believing it is a result of having never read about the atonement from our perspective.
If we believe that the atonement only resulted in a universal resurrection, what was Gethsemane about? Why did Christ suffer infinitely? What was the purpose of Him suffering for our sins and our sicknesses and pains? We believe the universal resurrection came about by Christ voluntarily laying down His life- in other words, “giving up the ghost,” and rising again three days later (as measure by the Jews). So why all the suffering in Gethsemane, the scourging, the infinite suffering on the cross (which is completely in addition to and infinitely more terrible than the normal, mortal pains associated with crucifixion)?
Seems to me you are making a huge, unsupported leap in logic, or ignoring a great deal to portray our doctrine in an unfavorable light.
Why?
Your misrepresentation of our view of the atonement really makes me step back and wonder how much you really understand about the Book of Mormon and everything else we believe.
I need to clarify something.
Faith and works have a cyclical relationship. By that I mean that faith is required to do good works. So, in that sense, faith comes first. But in doing good works, our faith is strengthened. And in that sense, good works come before increased faith. And as our faith is increased, we have the capacity and desire to do more good works. Then, once again, our faith is strengthened. And on and on.
So, I don’t want folks to think I am saying that faith only follows works. I recognize that they have a very interesting and cool relationship, and that ultimately, faith is required first to do good works.
So in a sense you are correct in saying that works follow faith. But the reverse is also true after that point.
Make sense?
Yup, makes sense, FoF. But it is still true that the faith does not mean anything without the works (specific, LDS sanctioned works, ie baptized in LDS church.).
Fof,
Either you didn’t read grindael’s last post or you are truly lost. Grindael can speak for himself but I have to say that he is one on this blog who really knows his stuff. Not only Christianity but Mormonism as well. Did you know he was a faithful RM and that he was a temple Mormon? From what I have seen over the past few weeks is that it’s you who doesn’t really know what your faith teaches or believes. You rarely provide sources to back up what you say. Grindael has shown what your own leaders and prophets have revealed and taught and I think I will take them at their word. It’s very plain to see which one of you knows the doctrines and teachings of Mormonism.
The Atonement did not happen in the garden. This is another mistake of Mormonism. This is why it’s so hard to dialog with Mormons. Mormonism is an entirely different religion that uses Christian words like Atonement, yet gives those words an entirely different meaning. How deceptive. And Mormons wonder why we say they aren’t Christians.
FOF,
You asked:
1) Do you feel shame and guilt in your life after disobeying God or giving in to temptation?
2) If you do, what role does that shame and guilt play?
3) Is there a time when you will no longer feel shame and guilt?
4) If so, when?
That is a bizarre list of questions. I’m trying to determine the mind-set of someone who would ask questions like that.
No we Christians feel really good after we sin. Sin is very enjoyable. Getting roaring drunk, using drugs, and chasing loose women is a real hoot as are stealing, cheating, lying, gluttony, sloth, greed and envy.
Are you for real man?
@Faithoffathers
I haven’t heard a response to my posts on repetition. So far you’ve tried to reconcile your opinion with what the LDS church teaches, but really haven’t done it.
Remember, we must keep all the commandments. Does that include breaking the commandments and repenting of them and breaking them again? What does that prove about repentance?
Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held accountable for their former sins (D&C 82:7; 58:43; Ether 2:15) Gospel Principles, pp. 252- 253.
There simply is no slack for attaining celestial glory. You cannot receive forgiveness and repeat the sin. Why? Because you’re forgiven on the condition you do not sin again(only the very basic requirement of repentance among 6). You must be perfect even as Heavenly Father is perfect!
🙂
LDS.ORG
And,
What do you think “accountable for OUR OWN SINS” means? Mormon Jesus did not take upon him YOUR SINS, only ADAMS transgression. This is not true of Christian Jesus. He took upon Himself the sins of EVERYONE. If he did, then why are YOU “accountable for your OWN SINS“? Something is wrong with this picture. You can’t have it both ways. That is why we are saved by His GRACE. That is only good in Mormonism for a “resurrection” to “immortality”. Of course, they forgot to add some forced regulations, like temple marriage, tithing, the word of wisdom, belief in Jo Smith, and all the other temple recommend requirements if you don’t want to get into a dead end kingdom and be a slave/servant for eternity:
This is the fate of all that don’t live the Mormon Gospel of Regulations. The Atonement ONLY GETS YOU A RESURRECTION. ANYTHING ELSE YOU MUST EARN. I understand Mormon Doctrine PERFECTLY. Do you?
FOF said,
Abraham’s faith was “made perfect” through works. The effect of works on faith could not be made more clear than this.
I say,
Actually the word is ετελειωθη which means “complete”.
A much better translation would be “faith was completed by his works;” ESV. This is exactly what all Christians believe happens and what I’ve been saying all along
Saving faith results in good works. The same way that fire results in heat.
If I feel no heat I question the reality of the fire. Maybe it is an hallucination or an optical illusion.
Fire is not complete “ετελειωθη” if there is no heat.
That is all that James is saying. He is not saying that your works are added to your faith in order to earn your salvation. There is nothing about our works “strengthening” faith.
This is really very simple
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:26)
If I see a body with out a spirit I assume it is not alive.
again not rocket science
you say,
And this is not being “taken out of context” as somebody suggested above.
I say,
actually, you are completely ignoring the all important preface to this section
quote:
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law……………………….. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.
(James 2:10-12)
end quote:
that is the context you are missing
peace
FOF,
You ask
1) Do you feel shame and guilt in your life after disobeying God or giving in to temptation?
I say,
I do, but I also feel the strange sensation that the disobedience is some how out of character and coming from residual sin dwelling in me and not from my innermost being (Romans 7:15-25)
you ask,
2) If you do, what role does that shame and guilt play?
I say,
It drives me yet again to God’s free grace (Romans 7:25-8:1)
you ask,
3) Is there a time when you will no longer feel shame and guilt?
I say,
yes
you ask,
4) If so, when?
when my redemption is complete and I am delivered from this body of death. 7:24
quote:
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)
end quote:
peace
If my memory serves me correctly Martin Luthor wanted to get rid of any reference in the Bible that mentioned faith without works because it contradicted faith alone. As an observer we are seeing the process of grace from two different viewpoints. We come up with analogies that aren’t 100% correct or 100% wrong. What I saw with Grindael was that he worked to change himself and with Gods’ help, so he says, he succeed. He like I have a long way to Go.
To all Mormons here.
When I became a Christian (more years ago than I care to remember) I carried on living as I had always done, I did nothing to change my way of life apart from praying & reading the Bible more. By the standards of the time I was living what seemed to me to be a pretty decent life. One day my sister said this to me “I don’t know what’s happened but you’ve changed” I hadn’t really noticed until she said that but I was seeing things in a different light & over a period of time the things I had previously enjoyed were no longer enjoyable, in short, I was slowly but surely becoming a ‘new’ person, the old man was fading away.
So, when did I do the ‘works’ that prepared me for salvation, when did I do all that I could? The simple answer is that I did nothing except believe. It was God working in me that caused the change & it was only due to Gods work that ‘good works’ became the natural way of things. I say again, I did NOTHING & that to me is the ‘proof’ if I can put it that way, of the truthfulness of Christs words in John 3:3
If Mormons would only pray for understanding when they read James 2 instead of misinterpreting what he is saying they might come to understand what I have tried to say above. It is true faith (belief) that brings about ‘true’ good works. If I had worked to bring about change in myself, If I, as a Mormon, had done ‘good works’ because I believed that was what was required of me then I would have taken pride in those things & that would be a hateful thing to God, but because the work was all of His doing I can take no credit for anything I have become or for any works that I may have done. He did it all.
So, be humble before God, remember the middle letter of sin, the letter ‘I’ Forget ‘I will’ or ‘I can’ Empty yourselves of all that pride, and allow Him to do what is needful for you. You will never please God by attempting to prove to Him that you have somehow earned, at least in part, your Salvation.
Clyde,
What I didn’t tell, was the 26 years I spent as an atheist after I left the Mormon Church. Nothing I could do, and I mean nothing, could have changed me. I didn’t do one “work” to change myself. I simply had faith and believed. The Holy Spirit changed me. But sin still reigns in my mortal body. If not for the Grace of Christ I would be dead in my sins.
As for time blurring the facts about what has been done in the name of Christianity, that’s simply not true. The facts are there. Many who called themselves Christians did horrible things. Thing is, we Christians condemn them for it. With Mormonism, it is all covered up. For example, the reality of it is that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God. Instead of denouncing him as a false prophet, the Mormon Church simply said that he didn’t say what he surely did, or that he gave an uneducated guess, or that he taught false doctrine but it doesn’t really matter because he taught a lot of true things too. (That was BR McConkie who said the last one). But there is no rational explanation for a self proclaimed “Oracle of God” to teach that God is something he is not (according to later “prophets”).
Christians have the Bible as the Word of God. Mormons have the Book of Mormon, the fruit of a false prophet, and another fruit of Jo was Brigham Young, who said that Jo told him that Adam was God. So you have a dilemma. We can look at Christian history and say (about those who called themselves Christians but deviated from the Word of God) that they were wrong, heretics, etc., because we don’t need them, their churches, nor anything else. We have the Word of God. Mormons NEED their prophets to make the whole church work. If they are false, it is false. It’s as simple as that, and the history of the Mormon Church proves they are false prophets.