It has been awhile since this 5-minute video was posted at its Deseret Book website, but it has recently been making some waves in the blogosphere. In this Q&A with a Mormon apostle, a young LDS boy asks David Bednar, “If you, like, stop reading the scriptures, what is the best way, how is the best way, to get back into reading them?” Dr. Bednar takes this opportunity to provide an object lesson for his audience.
Please watch “The Lord’s Side of the Line”:
I am troubled by this video.
Maybe it’s my mother’s heart that makes me feel sorry for the little boy as he struggles to hold back his tears.
Maybe it’s the way Dr. Bednar’s illustration feels like a threat, similar to a misguided parent who tells her child, “If you get out of bed the boogeyman will get you!”
Maybe it’s the way the lesson communicates to the little boy that he will never be safe.
Maybe it’s Dr. Bednar’s implied message that if a person makes a “mistake” and crosses the line there is no way back.
Maybe it’s the bottom-line Mormon teaching that staying on the Lord’s side is 100% about behavior and 0% about Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
Maybe it’s Dr. Bednar’s total neglect of any mention of God’s love and mercy — the one thing that would comfort this frightened little boy, and the one thing that everyone needs most of all (Titus 3:3-7).
I am troubled by this video. What do you think of it?
FOF,
Easy believeism? Is it suppose to be difficult to be saved?
In religions like Mormonism, which isn’t the gospel presented in the NT, it is necessary for the practitioner to have a hard time of it. That’s because the legalistic religious system is all about “earning” something.
In your case, you are working to earn the god merit badge. This is available only to those who first of all pony up a considerable amount of money, put on costumes, go to a temple and perform worthless rituals lifted from the Free Masons. In addition to this you are required to fulfill all church “callings” and observe a variety of worthless rules contained in something called the Word of Wisdom. This latter practice is also addressed in Paul’s letter to the Galatians.
About the only thing all of your doing/works results in is a whole lot of false pride and a pseudo-ego boast.
Here’s a few things for you to consider and be aware of as you continue in your pursuit of becoming a god.
Galatians 1:8
Galatians 1:16
Galatians 5:1
If you ever get by this idea that your efforts will turn you into a god, perhaps then you’ll see the gift that God is offering you through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. You don’t deserve it, you can’t earn it. It is available only through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
FOF God didn’t design his plan of salvation to be difficult to obtain. He makes it clear there is nothing we can do to earn it. As we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from unrighteousness.
Paul received a revelation of Jesus Christ from the Father and by receiving the gift of eternal life that (the Father) was offering, Paul was born again by the Spirit of God and saved.
When the Philippian Jailer asked Paul what he, the Jailer, needed to do to be saved, Paul responded that the Jailer needed to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved (Philippians 16:30-31).
I guess Paul, according to FOF, was preaching a gospel of easy believe-ism. Since Paul received the gospel he preached directly from the Father who revealed Jesus Christ in him, I think it would be safer to go with Paul than FOF.
The problem with FOF’s gospel is that it is no gospel at all. It is a man-made hybrid version of a gospel that Joseph Smith developed on his own over time. It contains all sort of odd and peculiar not the least of which is that men, by doing certain works, can become gods.
Interestingly to note however, is that even the various sects of Mormonism don’t even agree regarding what Smith’s gospel is. If we take the FLDS, they hold to Brigham Young style Mormonism with it’s very bizarre notion of who God is. These folks embrace Young’s restored gospel that Adam was really god and that this god had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary. Smith, at the end, settled on god being the Egyptian fertility god Min which Smith depicted in the BoA sitting on a throne exposing himself.
You’d think the true Mormon believers like FOF would catch on to the fact that what they are involved in isn’t any gospel at all and will in fact lead to their destruction and certainly not the expectation of being a god.
@faithoffathers
“We believe we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.”
Kudos to you for being true to your convictions. Yes this is true, but you haven’t included the entirety of the gospel.
The question I ask is whether you’ve considered that unless you’ve met all these conditions according to the Prophets and Presidents(beginning at Prophet J. Smith, Jr) are insufficient to get you into celestial kingdom?
1. Faith in Christ
2. Repent of our sins (left out all) – should read Repent of all our sins (D&C 20:37)
“And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.” (D&C 20:37)
3. Receive the Holy Ghost
3. Endure to the end
The core requirement is repenting of all your sins. Are you sure you’re including everything you’re supposed to present?
Even in the Old Covenant the Scripture makes it clear that it is faith and not works that God commends
quote:
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation.
(Hebrews 11:1-2)
end quote:
Of course the true Gospel speaks of the gift of faith producing all kinds of amazing works in God’s servants.
quote:
And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
(Hebrews 11:32-34)
end quote:
Yet it’s not those works that are praise worthy but the faith itself that God commends!!!!!!!
On top of that WE in the NC were given even more Grace.
quote:
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
(Hebrews 11:39)
end quote:
praise GOD
peace
FoF,
I, too, commend your tenacity. And your quotes are better than the LDS I’m talking to on Facebook. But as others have bright up there is much more to SLC mormonism than these quotes-their context, conflicting teachings, and the whole of LDS historical teaching must be taken into account to weigh these quotes. Surely you don’t expect us to just take your unofficial unauthorized weird for it?? We wouldn’t nor should we do it with authoritative brethren, were they ever to get into the nitty gritty
FoF, you speak of false witness and then slander grindael with “easy-believism… In fact the term easy believism and cheap grace as used by LDS is rhetorical false witness that belies any claim to sincere dialogue or debate. The plank before the speck.
I like how in this video this false apostle does not answer this child’s question at all. Instead he just uses scare tactics and says that if you stop reading LDS material you are already too far past saving without saying it. Talk about pressure.
This approach will only expedite the decline of the corporation. Pride will carry the pioneer families for 100 years, but the majority in those moments of honesty will realize the despair, guilt and hopelessness that there religion’s culture places on them. Those moments of honesty become long periods of self-awareness, like a fish swimming in despair unable to escape.
No religion can survive by guilt-tripping its members into compliance and having them focused inward for truth and righteousness rather than upwards. Come to Christ all of you who are burdened beyond your ability and he will give you rest. Let it all go
Oh Spartacus,
Cut FOF some slack. He simply can’t help himself, and really, I don’t make it easy for him. I think he is just honestly stupified by Ex-Mormons. To him, there is some traumatic event in our lives that has ripped us away from the best thing we ever had. He can’t understand the logic of our choices, the suspension of our faith in the Mormon SYSTEM that allows us to step back and see the Church for what it really is. This is strange and foreign to him.
We are the ones who have to have some hate-filled agenda, instead of an honest intellectual curiosity about Mormon History and Doctrine, that severs us from the “follow the leaders” mentality that keeps those like FOF safely in the “Lord’s Territory” that Bednar speaks of.
For you see, questioning Mormon leaders, their statements, their scriptural essays, their Conference Doctrines, their very reasons for promoting the gospel of Joseph Smith is anathema to them. It is the forbidden fruit of the Devil, and we are evil and dis-respective, and in today’s world linked in their minds with the evil socialist “lefty’s” that promote all the things that good, honest, conservative Mormons hold so dear. To him, that is the ultimate condemnation, to link the apostates of Mormonism to some kind of invented socialism that results in easy-peasy beliefism, and the rejection of the logical Mormon deity to the illogical and mysterious Trinity. We have betrayed them, and are the enemy. We are only good for derision, dis-respect and mud-slinging, because we don’t really understand true Mormonism, and can only interpret their gospel in the worst light, because we have forsaken Correlation, and all the reinterpretations of modern day “prophets”, who have declared all those former doctrines “folklore” and non-essential to “salvation”.
We are only to be huffed at, and subjected to snide insinuations that all we do is cull “selective clip and pastes”, that “absolutely shred any representation” of their “faith and religion”. This is so disturbing to those like FOF that they have to attempt to psychoanalize the Ex-Mormon, adding comments like “Hope that feels good”. They are absolutely flummoxed by anyone who would dare to challenge their cultivated and trite doctrinal correlation, to which they desperately cling and repeat over and over again to those that they deem enemies to the “restored gospel” that they are certain was expressed to the earth by angels to “prophets” that have absolute “authority”, but can make any kind of doctrinal blunder and still be a true and faithful messenger of the very words of God.
Those like FOF don’t understand the new trends in Mormonism, that have defenders of the faith claiming that they pulled doctrine out of their backsides, and still go to church and believe in the “restoration” of authority, but have to now claim their leaders are only the caretakers of the records and only good for saving people because they have “authority” to do so, and no one else does. For example,
And,
I don’t think FOF would know what to do with such a Mormon as this. The jaded, the disbeliever in continuous revelation, the disheartened who claim that,
There are lots of these new age Mormons floating around, who still hate the Christians, but don’t quite have the faith in their leaders that they used to. These are the Mormons who have looked reality in the face and have to find a way to try and salvage the “restored gospel” in their minds, something that those like FOF just can’t do. Just the fact of the church publishing essays that claim former “prophets” fell into “folklorish” beliefs should be a red-flag, but not to those still locked in the correlated faithful history dance.
So Spartacus, go easy on FOF. He simply can’t help himself.
The weight of evidence against the LDS its doctrines and the BofM is overwhelming and all the committed apologist can do is ignore obfuscate lie or deny, so, with respect may I suggest that we don’t call it tenacity let’s call it for what it really is, a wilful refusal to accept the clear evidence of scripture, of history and most important of all, Gods word.
Back to the topic, I have watched the video several times and with every viewing it looks less and less spontaneous. To be honest I can’t imagine a young lad even thinking of a question like that. I would lay bets, if I were a betting man, that the question was arranged beforehand. Even the rug looks as if it was put there to facilitate Bednars reply. As far as I’m concerned the entire exercise was a well rehearsed and stage-managed event to make Bednar, at the boys expense, appear to be something he clearly is not, a man of God. As everyone has already noticed there was no mention of Christ and that should have been the first thing on his mind.
Incidentally, Bednar makes a fine apologist, there was never any attempt to give a satisfactory answer to the boys question which was, ‘how can I get back to reading the scriptures’ it was for all practical purposes, ignored. Call me an old cynic if you like but I believe it was set up, not for the boys benefit but for Bednar.
Oh, the question was definitely fed to the boy. At least by his parents, but just as likely by Bednar and producers. And the kid probably didn’t have a clue what Bednar was going to do (to him, thus the tears).
I certainly accept your point Old man. I used tenacity specifically because it is largely neutral just as being smart is not necessarily a good thing (without wisdom) or witty. Tenacity is integrity at best foolhardiness at worse and pathological or evil at worst.
And to the topic, FoF wanted to have us take “god’s territory”and “scripture” as (obvious) representatives of Jesus. But what if Bednar’s ambiguity is just as representative of “god’s territory” the church, the one true church, our organization? What if “scriptures”is just as representative of our teaching, our commandments?
What is Bednar’s, at best, indirect references to Jesus are actually direct references to his true concern – our religion, our community, our authority, our church?…
I think that the way that Fof F tries to sell his belief about grace , and when I say “his belief”
it is because what he says may not be what his leaders have taught etc. With that in mind I
look at the large list he gave about grace yesterday , and I think there are in that list some that
are in agreement with the New Testament teachings . However, when it comes to God’s grace
in relation to how a person receives eternal life , that is the issue that is most important . We
know that God is so merciful that His grace gives rain to even the unsaved —Matt 5:45 , but how
is a person saved , i.e. receives eternal life ? Numbers 1 and 27 on the list suggest that it is by
grace —alone . I think a comma should have been inserted after grace in # 1 , and after grace
near the end of # 27 . This should have said : ” Saved by grace (,) AND complying with the list
of rules , laws, regulations that is the “restored gospel ” of Mormonism .”
# 27 should have read : In other words , it is through grace (,) AND keeping all the laws , rules
of the gospel , that we are enabled to live in God’s presence some day .”
That would be a more clear description of where grace in relation to receiving eternal life resides
in the Mormon gospel , at least from what I read in Mormon publications .
Interestingly , Fof F has said in the recent past that it is not accurate to say that the Mormon
gospel ” is a set of rules, and regulations , and customs ” . However , the Mormon gospel is just
that . It’s code of laws , a long ladder whose numerous steps are the rules, principles, laws ,
that enable a sinner to climb ( merit/ earn ) their way up to live with God in His presence
and be with Him and like Him . In Mormonism you quality for this , you are only a candidate
for this gift ( eternal life ) but it comes by earning it through grace AND a ton of works , enduring
to the end . But the Bible states it’s by God’s grace through our faith ( trust) alone — Eph 2: 8-9 .
We are justified by faith ( declared righteous , accepted by God and given the gift of eternal life )
not by climbing all the steps up a so-called gospel ladder to merit eternal life .
This is why the testimonies of so many ex-Mormons tell of the futility to “measure up ” in their
striving to live the Mormon gospel ” system ” . Little things , big things , all designed to make
you feel happy and deserve His blessings and merit His mercy . But to receive eternal life ?
Sorry , but that is not the gospel of salvation that the apostles in the New Testament taught .
To receive eternal life it is based on work, but not ours . It’s Jesus’ work ,dying in our place on
the cross , and rising from the dead , that is what allows God to pardon us and give us the gift of
eternal life , when we surrender our will ( heart) to Him and confess we’re guilty and ask that
the merits of Jesus being our covering to let us into His presence . It’s all about Jesus —-
not a church religious system , secret temple rituals , or confessing that a certain man is God’s
mouthpiece today and who talks about God’s grace but who has heaped a myriad of rules, laws ,
regulations on it — requirements —-to further define how a person is saved .
grindael,
Boy- did you misrepresent that talk by Elder Lund. You could not have given a more skewed and misrepresentative clip from him. Shall we look at other portions of that same talk?
Let’s include the whole paragraph from which you quoted:
“In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.”
Notice the key statement- “the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.”
Of course we have to given effort. The most frequent invitation and commandment uttered by Christ in the New Testament was “repent.” Our works don’t save us. Christ saves us. But our works are required by Christ because they strengthen our faith. You seem to flip out that there are conditions on salvation, or that we are required to do anything. You might as well insist that you can commit any sin you desire and you will still be saved eternally because you confess with your lips that Jesus is the Savior. Maybe you simply do not have the means or capacity to understand this principle. That is the best possible scenario or reason for not getting this.
But here are some more passages from Elder Lund’s talk:
“And so, in the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ stood before the law and paid the price in suffering for every sin as though he himself had committed them. Such suffering was beyond the power of any mortal man to endure. We can’t understand how he did it, only that he did, and that “through Him mercy can be fully extended to each of us without offending the eternal law of justice” (Packer, p. 56). In terms of our parable, he generated sufficient payment to satisfy the debt of every other man. He met the demands of the law for himself through obedience, and for all others through suffering.”
and
“In one of the most beautiful images in all of scripture, we find the solution to that awful dilemma we all face as sinners. We are standing before the bar as defendants, facing the great judge, God the Father. Our defense attorney—our “Advocate with the Father”—steps forward, not to refute the charges or to hold up a record of good works on our part to counterbalance our guilt, but to plead our case in a different manner:
“Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
“Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
“Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.” (D&C 45:3–5.)
Nothing man could do for himself could bring him past that judgment bar successfully without such an Advocate. That is why eternal life is always a gift, and those who receive it do so by “inheritance.” It is interesting to note that the word inherit and its cognate words are used seventy-eight times in the Doctrine and Covenants, while the word earned and its related words are not used once.”
Why did you leave all that out? Trying to manipulate perception?
I notice in Lund’s article that he quoted Bruce R. McConkie in defining salvation, but you chose a statement from another source (almost certainly mrm website from Bill McKeever) to portray our belief in grace as only applying to the resurrection. That is so incredibly dishonest. Again, this is from Lund’s talk, which you neglected to include in your cut and pastes:
“As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation: ‘Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek.”
Why did you not use that definition of salvation from the talk from Lund?
And this is why I have said before that you cannot be trusted with quotations or interpretations of text. You either do not possess the ability to understand text or you intentionally misrepresent what people are saying. Either way, you have no business going on a public forum and claiming to understand what Latter-day Saints believe.
I know human beings well enough to know that this type of misrepresentation and dishonesty directed toward someone or something to which a person was formally connected doesn’t just happen. You can deny it all day long and throughout your life. But it could not be more obvious that you are extremely angry. It is not that you are making anything difficult or me. I just cannot believe you are so willing to make the arguments you do. Anybody who has even a basic understanding of our doctrine and teachings could see through your claims.
Dude- didn’t you supposedly serve a mission? And you think Christ’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane was to provide the universal resurrection? Wow. You really are completely lost about our doctrine. If you would like, I can see about missionaries coming to your place to teach you this stuff so you won’t make such enormous mistakes.
Spartacus- I make that claim about grindael because he seems to insist that there should be no conditions on forgiveness and salvation. Socialism baby. Easy believism. He (and others) cannot have it both ways.
@faithoffathers
Thank you again for responding so aptly to the plethora of comments leveled in your direction.
You have said:
“Our works don’t save us. Christ saves us. But our works are required by Christ because they strengthen our faith. You seem to flip out that there are conditions on salvation, or that we are required to do anything. You might as well insist that you can commit any sin you desire and you will still be saved eternally because you confess with your lips that Jesus is the Savior. Maybe you simply do not have the means or capacity to understand this principle. That is the best possible scenario or reason for not getting this.”
[Actually this is not clearly stated and it’s very confusing because somewhere else in your quote you list]
“The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives…”
If you have to perform works to activate the atonement, then this is absolutely fine. (In terms of the LDS Prophets and Apostles). However, you cannot state that works are not necessary for salvation, that is true salvation or exaltation. It’s clear from the quote above that works are necessary to activate or to bring the gift of power into our lives as per your quote.
“Complete obedience brings eternal life. But to be exalted one must keep the whole law … to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, 2:6).”
Works are necessary for exaltation, otherwise the atonement is useless in terms of achieving one’s exaltation (as per the Prophets).
The Bible as per Apostle Paul states this:
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6, KJV)
Paul concludes that grace is the opposite of works and works the opposite of grace. They simply cannot be formulated together in the Biblical gospel of salvation (reconciliation with Heavenly Father).
I find the role that Bednar chose to play in his scenario interesting. He seemed to enjoy that role as well.
RikkiJ,
Faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end is necessary for salvation. But those things do not do the saving. Those things and works strengthen faith in Christ. And that is why the power of grace and the atonement become active when we act and obey and repent. It is not that those things are doing the saving, but they strengthen our faith.
All of Paul’s statements are to this affect- he is saying that the works do not save us- Christ does. But he is absolutely not saying that faith, repentance, baptism, obedience, service, good works are not required. And the talk which grindael absolutely massacred and misrepresented explains this quite well if you read the whole talk.
How else is faith strengthened? There is no good answer to this question if repentance and works are not inherent in belief and faith. This is precisely how works and faith are formulated together in the gospel. It is the only way a person can consistently make sense of all the NT passages on the topic.
We all know that in the culture of Mormonism it’s all about control through fear, intimidation and manipulation.
These people don’t talk straight. They talk crooked.
Now if the kid in the video had come to me with the same question I’d probably say to him, “That’s an interesting question. Why do you ask it?” What would he say to me? Would he say he felt guilty about not reading the Bible? If he did, I’d explain to him that God is interested in him reading the Bible, praying, or doing good works, whatever, not out of compulsion or because someone made it a law.
Here’s what I really did about forty years ago. I made a vow to God that I’d read the Bible at least five minutes a day. I think in those years I’ve forgotten to do it, maybe one time. I do it the same time every day. It’s a habit formed from doing it over and over again over years. I wouldn’t recommend this to everyone but it works for me.
I’d probably tell the kid that story and tell him that if he was serious, he should come up with a plan that works for him.
Excuse me. It’s time for me to read my Bible. I always start with the chapter of Proverbs that corresponds with the days date. So, today is the first of February so I’ read the first chapter of Proverbs. Then I’ll move on to something else.
I think this is a good place for this. It’s less than forty minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JiRIh0KCAU
OOPS, I mean “four” minutes. Sorry about that!
FOF said,
Of course we have to given effort. The most frequent invitation and commandment uttered by Christ in the New Testament was “repent.”
I say
Actually the word for “Repent” in NT Greek is μετανοέω. It just means to change your mind.
It is most definitely not a work to change your mind. It’s just something that happens.
You believe something is correct or the right thing to do and then you decide you were wrong that that is all repent means.
Think about it, suppose I told you that in order to be saved you needed to change you mind about ice-cream in one sense you would be out of luck. You can’t will yourself to change your mind you like what you like and there is just nothing you can do about it.
On the other hand I once thought that asparagus was a terrible food but now for various reasons I have changed my mind ie “repented”. No one in there right mind would look at that change in attitude as some how a work on my part requiring effort it just happened .
You say,
Our works don’t save us. Christ saves us. But our works are required by Christ because they strengthen our faith.
I say,
Works don’t strengthen faith. Works simply are the natural result (fruit) of a living saving faith. (James chapter 2).
In fact Scripture clearly says if we seek to add our works to God’s grace we nullify that grace
quote:
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
(Romans 11:6)
and
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Romans 4:4-5)
end quote:
It really couldn’t be any plainer. Grace plus our works is not grace at all.
Peace
Oh FOF, you crack me up. I gave a link, and I said that I was going right to Lund’s summary at the end, and I mentioned that he said “all the things you said” which he did. So I wasn’t being deceptive at all, as much as you would like for me to have been. Here is what I said,
You are so bad on comprehension that I’m not surprised that you didn’t pick that up. Bitterness will do that to you, so I’m told. As for your lame explanation, you do know that it doesn’t change ANYTHING, right? Let’s make this so easy that even YOU can understand it. Here is a point-by-point of Lund’s paragraph:
1. We are saved by grace
2. Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death
3. saved by love from Adam’s fall and our own
4. saved from sin & transgression
5. Atoning power is a freely available gift from him
All the above, gets you a RESURRECTION without doing anything on your part. This is the Grace that you speak of FOF. But you don’t speak of how you ACCESS that Grace. But Lund does. Now FOF comes all of the things that I am speaking of. YOU continually only focus on the above. The way to access the Mormon Grace above IS GOING TO COME BELOW. READY? HAMMERTIME:
6. BUT OUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE ESSENTIAL TO BRING THE GIFT INTO POWER IN OUR LIVES
7. SIN BRINGS ALIENATION FROM GOD
8. THE MORE WE SIN THE GREATER THE ALIENATION
9. MORE DIFFICULT TO “TAP” THE POWER OF GOD WHICH ALONE IS SUFFICIENT, BLAH BLAH BLAH…
Now, you did me a great favor because it shows how ridiculous Mormon Grace is. You can’t access the power… until you do “WORKS” which make you “righteousness”. But you can’t be righteous if you have any sin that alienates God! Quite the catch-22 wouldn’t you say?
You can’t get the Mormon Grace… until you are free from all sin in your life, why? Because as LUND says, SIN BRINGS ALIENATION FROM GOD. So how do you GET the Grace in the first place, if you aren’t free from sin FOF? Are you sinless? Well, now, that would be a first (after the Son of God of course). Well, are you FOF? Sinless? Because Lund says that YOUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE ESSENTIAL TO BRING THE GIFT INTO POWER IN YOUR LIFE. And the more you sin THE GREATER THE ALIENATION!
How can you get your Grace, FOF, if you are in sin? When you have alienated God? This is NOT what Paul taught, no matter how you try and explain it. Lund is slick here, saying that Mormon Grace is not that different from Christian Grace, but you don’t have to do FORCED WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS to “access” Christian Grace.
Now do you see? I’m not misrepresenting anything, YOU ARE. All the stuff in Lund’s talk is great, but can only be accessed (according to him) by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Your big Book of Mormon list, useless if you don’t have “works of righteousness”.
You just don’t get it. What don’t you understand about this? You need WORKS to access the Grace of Christ. If you don’t have them, you don’t get it. It is therefore, only good for a resurrection. All the rest, you must EARN yourself. That is the Mormon Gospel of Works. Mormon Grace does not apply until you get to the end of your life and you are judged of your “works” and then you get assigned to a “kingdom of glory”. If you didn’t do the works, you don’t get the exaltation, you get a resurrection and go to a place where everyone else goes who aren’t going to be Mormon gods depending on their works.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand FofF you seem unable to grasp the fact that Grace is FREE, it’s a gift from God and has nothing to do with works?
Yes, works are an essential part of the Christian walk but as others have said, they are the result of saving faith not a means of strengthening it. You are putting the cart before the horse my friend. These are the steps that all Christians have to take I don’t include Grace in those steps because it is Grace that enables us to take them.
1. Belief that Christ’s words in John 3 16 are true
2. Belief leads to repentance
3. Repentance leads to faith
4. Faith leads to rebirth, read 2 Corinthians 5 17
5. Rebirth leads to works.
You should be able to see from the above that works are NOT a requirement they are a PRODUCT of true salvation, the natural consequence of Spiritual rebirth. If you cannot understand that and accept the clear teachings of Christ and His Apostles then you will remain lost in the heresy that is Mormonism.
The reason the video that I posted has relevance to this conversation is that it could be titled, “What happens when a Mormon reads the NT with an open mind?”
We could only hope if this boy in our article/video, that is the subject of this thread, reads the NT, he would see the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, put his faith in the Lord and in doing so receive the gift of eternal life that the Father is offering him.
Micah Wilder, took up the challenge of reading the NT while on his mission for the LDS church and at the end of a year concluded rightly, that the gospel that is preached by the LDS church is no gospel at all. It has no power to save and rather than draw people closer to the Lord Jesus Christ, it pushes them further away from Him.
The LDS church attaches Jesus to itself in order to provide some sort of cover but in reality this religion preaches a system of rules, regulations, and rituals that when followed are suppose to result in a male becoming a god. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed to the first century apostles and prophets. The “restored” gospel of Mormonism is a fictitious creation of an occult oriented false prophet, Joseph Smith.
So, let’s hope that the boy who is the subject of the article does take up the challenge of reading the NT and in doing so attains to eternal life through Christ Jesus Our Lord………..and Savior.
grindael,
I can see where FOF gets confused on this point because I’m wondering what exactly he thinks sin results in? I sin every day. It’s part of my nature. I don’t really want to do it. I’d rather be sinless but the result generally is that the more I try not to sin, the more I sin.
The NT explains this very clearly. Let me try and quote Paul from memory. He says, “…….wicked man that I am, who will save me from this body of sin and death?” He also says, “……should we continue in sin that grace will abound? May it never be.” It’s all in Romans which lays out the foundation for understanding salvation through Jesus Christ. In Romans Paul shows how Christ has delivered us from our cycle of sin and death.
Galatians is also a good source of information in understanding our flesh nature, the deliverance from eternal separation from God and our walk in the Spirit.
Martin Luther read and understood Romans 1:16-17 and it changed his life forever. We can only hope that FOF and all other LDS would read and understand these verses because what they have is not the gospel but rather a distortion of the truth that God brings to us through his Word.
Romans 5:1-2 tells us the heart of the gospel. Then in Romans 6:6-7, Romans 6:10-14 lays out our relationship with sin, the law and Christ’s sacrifice pretty clearly.
But truly, if someone doesn’t even know who God is, none of this is going to make any sense.
A guy like FOF doesn’t know who God is, who Jesus is, the nature of man and the nature of sin and what God has done for us through Jesus Christ.
FOF’s view that their are many gods in the universe and that he will become a god largely on the basis of his own works distorts his thinking to the point where none of what is said here makes any sense to him. He’s thinking in an entirely different context that sets the NT message on its ear.
This is what a diluted spirit of deception does to the thinking processes on an individual. We can only pray for him that God will bring him out of the dark cloud that is keeping him from the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:16-17 tells us that the righteous shall live by faith. We don’t live by works. We live by faith. That’s the whole point of the message of salvation revealed in God’s Holy Word. We are saved by grace through faith and not any works that any of us can boast of. Anyone claiming that their works have any part in their salvation, is a fool.
But then we see where Mormons of the LDS and FLDS sects are fools. They think that their works will result in them becoming gods. This is the result of following false apostles and prophets rather than following God’s final revelation found in the Bible.
I imagine that the gospel preached by these false prophets has an appeal to the ego and pride of certain men. It’s the same basic deception Satan used on Eve. But in the Mormon program, it’s all couched in sweetness and light with a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother who procreated these spirit beings and now want them to become just like them, gods.
What utter and total nonsense. It would rightly be called a doctrine of demons. And yet it appeals to some because they think they have a super spiritual insights into these marvelous precious truths. We’re back to ego and pride again.
Mormons would do well to immerse themselves in the NT that through the Holy Spirit their distorted thinking would be changed and that they would see who God is and what He has done through His Son Jesus Christ.
grindael,
You know that even the Mormon god was a sinner.
If it hadn’t been for the Mormon religious system, when he was a man on some distant planet, probably Kolob, he would have never had morphed into a god. It was his obedience to this eternal system that allowed him and his various wives to become gods and now rule our planet and this solar system.
So it stands to reason that works, sprinkled with a little faith and a distorted view of grace, is going to be the pathway to success for Mormons.
Is any of this in the Bible? Of course not! It’s not even a distortion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don’t think we could even call it a hybrid of Christianity. Not only is there no trace of Mormonism in the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers or the traditions of the Church, we can’t even find it in the writings of the early heretics.
No Joseph Smith and those who followed him as “prophets” just sort of made it up as they went along and called it “progressive revelation”.
I expect FOF to fall back on his claim that when James says that Abraham’s faith was “perfected” by works he somehow means that the faith of Abraham was somehow lacking something until it was supplemented by his works.
I would hope that he would take a minute to reflect that the author of Hebrews informs us that Jesus was “perfected” by suffering and realize that of course he was not less than perfect before he suffered. Jesus was perfect before the world began (John:1)
No his suffering merely demonstrated the perfection that already existed in Jesus.
Its exactly the same with faith
Our works merely demonstrate whether the faith we have is living saving faith.
By their fruits you will know them
Peace
FoF said,
FoF, You clearly have not read the Bible as much as you claim and dont believe it, what you said is not true. I have stated before, it is your belief and this belief in Mormonism that is why people on their death bed, and people on death row, more so those about to be excuted cannot be saved.
I’m guessing if I gave you some verses you would simply ignore them like the ones about God the Father being the only God.
But since I suspect you will ignore them, I will simply paraphrase them for you.
The Religious leaders asked Jesus, What work(S) must we do. Notice works was plural, More than one work. Jesus said, their is only one work, that is to believe upon Him.
That would have been a perfect time to say, Here are all the works you must do to be saved.
Falcon pointed out about the jailer, Simply believe on Jesus.Why did Paul forget all the rest? Baptism, Enduring to the end Etc?
FoF, this here will dry you nuts, but thats fine. My Church started a raido station a few months ago, we now do a one hour live show every Wed. The pastor of the church interviews various pastors, leaders, pretty much any and all topics and it is live.
He will be interviewing a Former Mormon who was a hard core TBM like you, that defened the faith, I also will be intervied and guess what I will be doing?
I will be pointing out mormons like you and the hard questions they dodge, Like If God the father says, I know of no others, then He is telling the truth, or He lied. People like you cannot answer that.
Since I happen to know the pastor and am friends with him, I am going to ask him to let me end the show with a challange to Mormons.
That challange is one I have issued here before, Bring on a prophet, a presdient, some what big leader like an apostle in the Mormon church for me to debate live on His show for all to here us talk. I will tell people No Mormon on any blog I have ever went to has went to a leader and said, Rick a brain dead nobody, Go put him in his place and show everyone how awsome Mormonism is.
Rick only saying, for honesty on both parts it must be filmed and aired on Youtube. Not one mormon here has ever comeback to me and said, we found and apostle, prophet, etc willing to do that. You know FoF, no one will becasue I know more than you guys are willing to admit.
This challange will be put out live and will remain standing until I die. This live raido show goes out via the internet and is heard all over the world. So I cannot wait.
fifth monarchy man,
You have it partially correct. Yes- works come from faith. But acting on that faith and doing those works increases one’s faith. So, works are both the result of faith and also the cause of faith. It is a cyclical process that takes place throughout our lives.
Old man also has it partially correct in his list where he states that repentance leads to faith. This is true.
Now you may say that repentance is simply a change of mind without any real connection to behavior. And that simply does not work. If I am an adulterer, and Christ tells me to repent of that sin (and all other sins), is He asking me to acknowledge in my mind that adultery is sinful without changing my behavior? Of course not. Repentance is not repentance without a change in behavior.
But all of this is really beside the point. The primary point and reason for this discussion, as I see it, is that I claimed that grindeal misrepresented our doctrine on grace in an enormous and dishonest way. He insisted that in our doctrine, grace only applies to the universal resurrection. And I think any honest person reading this thread and these posts can see from the very talk that grindeal cut and pasted from that he is very, very wrong. And it is quite obvious that he knew what he was doing and that he was not being honest.
Any person who read the talk to which grindeal linked can see very clearly that we absolutely believe that we are saved by grace- and I don’t refer to the resurrection alone. We are saved from sin by grace. But grindael chooses one sentence that he thinks he can twist and manipulate to try to support his twisted misrepresentation of our doctrine instead of any of the other portions of this talk. And in his definition of salvation, he does not use the definition in that talk, but a portion of another statement (not the entire statement) to make it look like grace only applies to the resurrection.
Grindael- I am not really interested in any conversation with you. And this is why. You do this over and over. You don’t understand our religion. That is fine. But don’t lie about it.
The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we are saved from our sins by the grace of Jesus Christ through the shedding of His blood. This occurs as we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, are baptized and enter the covenant to follow Him, receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. Grace aids us every step of the way, from the very first spark in our souls that encourages us to believe and follow- all the way to the day we die and thereafter. We do nothing good without the grace of Christ.
We do not save ourselves or truly earn our way to heaven. This is the problem I have with our critics- they simply do not tell the truth about us and our doctrine. And it reveals a glaring whole in their own faith and lives.
“Old man also has it partially correct in his list where he states that repentance leads to faith.”
No I don’t have it partially correct I have it completely correct, are you prepared to tell me that steps 1-2 & 4-5 are false?
1. Belief that Christ’s words in John 3:16 are true
2. Belief leads to repentance
4. Faith leads to rebirth, read 2 Corinthians 5:17
5. Rebirth leads to works.
I know this is the truth because Gods word tells me it is so. I don’t need a fictional story or a false prophet following an imaginary god to tell me how to be saved. All I have to do is read the Bible everything I need to be saved is to be found within its pages.
“The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we are saved from our sins by the grace of Jesus Christ through the shedding of His blood.”
That’s simply not so, if it were there would be little point in joining the LDS & what I said above would be all that’s necessary. Please tell us why we MUST follow the laws & ordinances of the Mormon church e.g. the law of tithing if Gods grace is enough for us to be saved. You know full well that in the Mormon church grace is NOT ENOUGH to save us from our sins, it is only enough AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.
This kind of debate will never end because in spite of what you said above you don’t believe that following Christ ALONE can save a person. You, along with every other Mormon MUST also follow Joseph Smith & that’s an undeniable fact. It’s useless to deny this because you have shown us over & over that Christ’s atonement is without merit unless the laws & ordinances of Joe Smith alias the LDS are also followed.
Prove me wrong by telling everyone here that you follow Christ alone, tell us that you have no need of Joseph Smith or the LDS because you have been saved by Gods grace.
Old man- I say “partially correct” because you don’t seem to associate repentance with works. And I do. But I agree that repentance produces faith.
We must accept and live the restored gospel and follow the Lord’s servants because that is a part of having faith, repenting, and accepting Christ. Christ said to His disciples that those who accepted them accepted Him. And those who rejected His disciples rejected Him. Of course you disagree that the apostles today are the same as the original twelve. But that is really beside the point. If one believes they are true apostles, then it is no different than following Christ’s original twelve apostles during that period.
It is truly mind-boggling that this is so difficult to understand. Repentance, obedience, service, good works, and following Christ’s servants are all inherent in “belief.” That is the only way the New Testament does not contradict itself. Only way. Being required to work does not mean we earn our salvation in a true sense. We are saved by grace- 100%.
Once again we get vague platitudes and personal attacks from FOF. This is all he can offer folks. Even when the quotes are broken down so that a baby can understand, it is still not enough for Ol’ FOF. He loves the word “cut and paste”, yet he does the exact same thing. This is called demonizing the process, but only for everyone else, not yourself. It is simply a ploy, to divert attention from the real issue, that FOF has not adequately explained my rebuttal to his accusations that I’ve distorted everything.
I too, think the Lurkers will see who has the right of it. But FOF has to just keep up the personal attacks. (Notice the one line brushoff to my rebuttal). Instead of specific analysis as to why my analysis of Lund’s paragraph is “wrong”, FOF simply says I “don’t understand” his religion. That should be a red flag to all you lurkers. Anytime someone does this, they are out of ammo. He is not interested in any conversations with me, because he can’t answer me. He never could and never will. But I keep making him look so bad that he gets drawn in, then leaves the conversation in frustration claiming that he won’t engage me again. He does this over and over, because he knows that all he can do is make generalizations that don’t answer anyone’s questions.
Mormon Grace does only apply to a Universal Resurrection UNLESS you do “Works”, which don’t apply if you sin. (But everybody sins – so it makes no sense at all) That gets you a “kingdom of glory”. This is so intrinsic to Mormonism that the level of dishonesty for FOF to deny it is staggering. I’ve given dozens of quotes to show that this is true. But FOF tries to take one, where he feels that he can twist, to make them all look bad. This again, is a tactic of dishonesty.
FOF has a lot of ‘splainin’ to do, but you won’t see it here folks, because he can’t explain the quotes. He NEVER HAS, and HE NEVER WILL. What he does is give OTHER quotes that don’t answer the problems of the quotes that I’ve given. His tactic is to confuse the reader, but that won’t work, we have seen that in recent years, people are getting more and more educated about Mormonism. This is what frightens FOF. We are blowing a hole in his phony correlated “faithful history” and that terrifies him. So sad, to have “living prophets” who have to hire nameless apologists to claim that all they are good for, is folklore. So sad, that this desperation can’t be answered by FOF. So sad that no matter what his leaders say, FOF will follow them whereever they go, no matter what. So sad that he follows men, instead of God who want him to obey rules and regulations that are nowhere to be found in the true Gospel of Jesus and have to butcher the Doctrine of Grace to force obedience.
FOF,
Again your explanation of Grace plus works salvation is exactly the same one as Judahzers gave. They would piously claim to believe that we were saved by grace just that we need to add our obedience to the law to that grace in-order to be saved.
It was that position that so infuriated Paul because it tears the very heart out of the gospel. If it’s grace plus anything it is no longer grace.
You say,
Yes- works come from faith. But acting on that faith and doing those works increases one’s faith.
I say,
I’m sorry you could not be more wrong. When a man asked Jesus to increase his faith Jesus did not advise him to do some works instead he showed him more Grace!!!!!! (Mark 9:22-25).
The solution for weak faith is not works but Grace from the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews12:2) please let that sink in it’s not our works that strengthen our faith it’s Jesus!!
You say,
Now you may say that repentance is simply a change of mind without any real connection to behavior.
I say,
of course repentance has a connection to behavior. If I change my mind about asparagus and decide now I like it I’m bound to eat more of it. The point is that repentance is not a work and that could not be more clear.
You say,
The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we are saved from our sins by the grace of Jesus Christ through the shedding of His blood.
I say.
Oh how I wish you would just stop there. But alas with the next sentence you nullify everything you said in this great truth.
You say,
This occurs as we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, are baptized and enter the covenant to follow Him, receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. Grace aids us every step of the way, from the very first spark in our souls that encourages us to believe and follow- all the way to the day we die and thereafter.
I say,
Grace plus works is not grace at all.
It is in fact the false gospel that Paul struggled against and declared an anathema. These are all very good things just like the law is a good thing but if you endeavor to make it to heaven based even partly on good things you do you insult Jesus and his work on your behalf.
This is a very serious matter. Please think about it
peace
One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation”
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206. See also The
Book of Mormon Student Manual Religion 121 and 122, 1996, p. 36).
“And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel”
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).
“I believe in the grace of God made manifest through His sacrifice and redemption, and I believe that through His atonement, without any price on our part, each of us is offered the gift of resurrection from the dead. I believe further that through that sacrifice there is extended to every man and woman, every son and daughter of God, the opportunity for eternal life and exaltation in our Father’s kingdom, as we hearken and obey His commandments” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1986, pp. 50-51).
Fof is wrong. These are prophets of the LDS church. Notice how Gordon Hinckley says Jesus gets us all a free resurrection but that’s it? Isn’t this what we have said over and over and fof has denied? Fof doesn’t believe what his prophets or his church teaches, he has created his own brand of Mormonism. He also has no authority to speak on beliefs of the LDS church. His prophets however, do.
By your refusal to answer my questions concerning the ‘steps’ I gave & your evasive response to my comments which followed them you make it clear without actually admitting to it, that you believe Christ alone is not enough & you do indeed follow Joseph Smith + Christ.
I’ll say no more to you on this topic, it’s clear that the teachings of men carry far more weight with you than the Gospel of Christ.
Colossians 2:8
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.”
fifth monarchy man,
No. It is not the same as the Judaizers.
The story, if anything, supports what I am saying. There is no indication as to how Christ instructed the man on how to increase his belief or faith. The man said he believed and requested help in increasing that belief. Christ healed the son. That doesn’t help your argument.
Just before healing the boy though, Christ said after the man explained that the apostles could not heal the boy, ” O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you?” He was commenting on the lack of faith of the apostles. And guess what he says after the healing? The apostles asked why they couldn’t heal the boy. Christ says, “This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.”
So the apostles didn’t have enough faith to heal the boy. And why was their faith not powerful enough? Because they had not fasted and prayed. Those are works. Their faith would have been sufficient had they fasted and prayed appropriately as explained by Christ.
So- yes. Faith results in works. And good works, sacrifice, repentance, etc. increase one’s faith. It is very plain to see this in the NT.
You say
There is no indication as to how Christ instructed the man on how to increase his belief or faith.
I say,
Exactly!!!!!
That is because he did not instruct him on how to increase his faith. If faith could be increased by works this is where Jesus would have said so but he did not.
You say,
The man said he believed and requested help in increasing that belief. Christ healed the son.That doesn’t help your argument.
I say,
That does not help my argument????? What ????? That is my argument.. You have just restated my argument to the letter yet you don’t understand what you just said. Amazing
You say,
So the apostles didn’t have enough faith to heal the boy. And why was their faith not powerful enough? Because they had not fasted and prayed. Those are works.
I say,
What???? You have it exactly backwards.
Jesus is clearly saying that if they had enough faith they would have fasted and prayed. Remember he says that all things are possible for him who believes. Prayer and fasting are things are they not??
I never cease to be amazed who someone can read a basic truth laid out in black in white and some how twist the meaning 180 degrees to make it say exactly the opposite of what it does.
peace
To show how very right that I am about Mormon Grace, I found this address by First Presidency Member Anthony W. Ivins, from General Conference, 1938:
Are you getting this folks? Ivins is not impressed that we are saved (as FOF states) 100% by Grace. He denies it. FOF is wrong, again. In fact, he corrects the man “from Salt Lake” that said so. But what Ivins here does, is show that Salavation (general resurrection) and Exaltation (resurrection to godhood) are two different things, and that for one, you must do WORKS. Hence, the Atonement “opened the door”, (gives a resurrection) and that is where the Grace of Christ ends, IF YOU WANT REAL MORMON SALVATION, to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. Ivins says that only “if you limit salvation to the word resurrection, then we must all admit that by the grace of God we are saved.” Mormon Grace “opens the door” to God, but it is conditional, in that it can’t get you back to the presence of God, you must do this yourself by forced “good works”.
There it is in black and white folks.
FOF said,
So the apostles didn’t have enough faith to heal the boy. And why was their faith not powerful enough? Because they had not fasted and prayed. Those are works.
I say
I can’t believe I have to do this….
check this out….
Quote:
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And …….the prayer of faith………… will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
(James 5:14-15)
and
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
(Mark 11:24)
and
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
(Matthew 21:22)
and
end quote:
Did you get that? The prayer that heals is the “prayer of faith”. You don’t pray to get faith you pray when you have faith and a faithful prayer is answered.
and again
quote:
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
(James 1:5-6)
End quote:
Strengthened Faith is not the result of prayer. Faithful prayer is the condition for God’s blessing
You say,
Their faith would have been sufficient had they fasted and prayed appropriately as explained by Christ.
I say,
I’m sorry but scripture could not be more clear faith is not somehow the reward for prayer it is the necessary condition for effective prayer.
peace
FoF,
You don’t understand our religion. That is fine. But don’t lie about it.
Stop lying about us and our Beliefes. Your church clearly is founded upon satan and your both going to the lake or fire and leading people to it.
You can only dodge questions, You dodged mine about why your Church and prophets claim the Bible is corrput and missing parts, your church claimed the J.S.T added those missing parts.
You refuse to answer why you dont use the J.S.T and instead quote froma corrput bible.
You cried about the trinity, brought it up in this topic, then when I showed you God said, I am the only God, no others came before me, none will come after me, so either God the father told the truth, and that proves the trinity, or He lied, yet you wont touch those verses.
You avoided the quotoes I mentioned from Jesus and Paul claiming grace alone, no works, to the point that bothe the Theif on the cross was saved with out works, that your church claims we cannot be saved on death row or a death bed.
You avoid the many questions by Old man and others. It’s clear you could not be honest and tell the truth if you were paid. Please stop lying and getting the facts about what we believe wrong. I for one am getting really tired of your lies and running away.
grindael,
There you go:
“………………….But what Ivins here does, is show that Salavation (general resurrection) and Exaltation (resurrection to godhood) are two different things, and that for one, you must do WORKS.”
That should pretty much shut FOF down.
There are two levels of salvation in Mormonism. The one that everyone that ever lived gets a “level” of and then there’s the big yippie yippie yahoo godhood plan that these LDS folks are working to earn.
When these Mormon types talk about grace, faith, works, the nature of God, the nature of man and God’s plan of salvation, they’re talking about foreign concepts not related any way to first century, Biblical, orthodox Christianity.
The LDS religion as practiced by the LDS/FLDS is a made up conglomeration of every bizarre thought that passed through the minds of Joseph Smith and those who followed him as “prophet”.
……………………and as Kate has shown, FOF knows nothing about Mormonism as practiced by the sect he belongs to and rick has rightly pointed out that FOF absolutely has no understanding of Christianity.
He’s as lost as he can be wandering about in a daze in search of a cogent thought.
Fof F said ,
” Being required to work does not mean we earn our salvation in a true sense . We are
saved by grace 100% . ”
Actually according to Mormon authorities , LDS are saved ( eternal life ) by grace PLUS
works . By agreeing with God to keep all the rules, laws , of the restored gospel— that
as they do this it will enable them to merit His mercy /grace . Mormons are told they are only mere candidates for eternal life , they must qualify for this by keeping the large
code of laws, rules , regulations they call the ” restored ” gospel of Jesus , this is why
Mormon leaders teach that LDS can earn eternal life and become Almighty Gods and
Goddesses who will get be homaged and served as Deity on their own planets by a
vast number of subjects —their offspring , much like H.F. does over this earth .
With this kind of belief no wonder Mormon authorities have introduced such a system
with a myriad of rules , laws , to obey in order to merit salvation , it takes a lot to make
a sinner into a Almighty God . This is why these latter day counterfeit apostles have
reduced our God down to a mere rank and file man , allegedly He had to earn His status
by working the “gospel system ” like Mormon males are told to do today . In fact this
long climb to Godhood required God and His wife to learn and keep such a huge list of -laws ,an untold number and these laws Mormon authorities call the gospel of Jesus!
Former Mormon Latayne Scott notes that Mormons do not deliberately de-emphasize
Jesus but ” they have so much extra Biblical doctrine to deal with that Christ is
minimized by everything else that is taught , and crushed by the sheer volume of it .”
Mormons like F of F may not come to understand how different the Mormon doctrine
of salvation is compared to the New Testament’s teaching because his leaders have
blurred that clear picture in the way they use terms like ” grace ” . Now it’s been said
that a good counterfeit is good because it is so close to the authentic /original .
That is so true with Mormonism’s doctrine about grace-faith-works in relation to how
a person is saved .
For Mormons who want to the weight of guilt that a works -righteousness system of
rules will produce , lifted from their backs , then turn to Jesus . He , not a ” gospel
plan ” or a ” church system ” of laws , regulations , is the answer . Only as you see
Him for who He really is will it dawn on you that in Him alone can your spiritual
longings be satisfied .
Saved by God’s grace through faith alone . It’s Jesus’ work —His righteousness .
Phil 3:9 ; Heb 7:25 .
Well time for the Super Bowl.
I may have to go with Mike R and Seattle since Russel Wilson, my fav from the U of WI is at quarterback.
grindael is probably having PTSD from all of Buffalo’s failed Super Bowl attempts.
None-the-less, Go Green Bay…………………I just can’t face reality when it comes to the Packers!
grindeal- really? It is news to you that resurrection and exaltation are two different things? And you think I am arguing that they are one and the same? I really don’t know how to engage with you. You seem more interested in people reading your spin than actually understanding the statements you post or my posts.
Resurrection is universal and unconditional- it is entirely the result of the grace of Christ and is achieved through His resurrection (His rising from the tomb). Salvation in the sense of exaltation is conditional- it is the the result of the grace of Christ, but is conditional upon our faith, repentance, being baptized and following and enduring to the end. Absolutely none of your quotations contradict that. Yes- works are required. But they are not what saves us.
I find it a little humorous that you must go back to the 1930s to find a statement that you think you can spin and torture enough to support your argument. But actually it doesn’t if one reads it without the desperate need to isolate sentences you can spin.
Grindael- you really are arguing with ghosts here. You are acting like you have uncovered some secret I have been trying to hide in statements that demonstrate that we must work to be saved from sin. Guess what- I have been saying this all along. But those works do not save us.
The bottom line is that you are either lying through your teeth when you say that grace ends for LDS with the resurrection. Or, you really cannot understand our doctrine.
I understand at this point that you do not have the means to understand these concepts. And that is OK. Not everybody is good at reading and comprehension. But keep trying.
fifth monarchy man,
None of those additional passages from the NT say anything that contradicts what I am saying. Yes- God answers prayers and He has given His servants the power to heal. But that does not counter in the least the passage showing that the apostles could not heal because their faith was not sufficient. And per the words of Christ- that faith to heal comes from fasting and prayer.
RickB- No. I am really not interested in side, pet-topics that detract from the main topics of the threads. It is not a matter of not having answers. It is a matter of not having unlimited posts per day to respond. Make sense?
MikeR- I am fine to simply disagree with you. I really don’t think you understand our religion. My main interest here was showing how dishonest grindael is in saying grace is only functional in our doctrine wtih the resurrection. He cannot be trusted and is merely trying to push propaganda. And if folks want and desire to believe him, that is fine with me. Those folks deserve that lot. But I think people should have an opportunity to see for themselves.
Fof, again, more lies from you, please stop.
Your the one that brought up the trinity first on this thread. Then when I give scripture, you run away and claim it is me changing the topic.
Them you mention grace plus works, I again give scripture about that, and again you avoid those scriptures, run away and then lie about me changing the topic to pet projects. Please stop lying, it only proves your of your father the devil.
FofF said
RickB- No. I am really not interested in side, pet-topics that detract from the main topics of the threads. It is not a matter of not having answers. It is a matter of not having unlimited posts per day to respond. Make sense?
As Rick says, you raise a topic but when confronted with clear evidence that you are wrong you complain that our replies have nothing to do with the subject at hand and refuse to answer. If you aren’t interested then why raise the topic in the first place.
I replied to a very long post from you concerning salvation and grace, in fact I replied 3 times and was completely ignored, as far as I’m concerned that’s pretty indicative that you had no answer.
I for one have given up trying to debate with you it’s a complete waste of time, you reply with quotes from atheist’s, false prophets or a book of fiction but rarely, if ever, do you reply with a coherent answer from scripture.
“Yes- works are required. But they are not what saves us.”
I love this quote. It says it all. One wonders what happens to grace, then, if works are required but not performed.
And I’ll leave with a quote from my pastor from yesterday’s sermon. We were talking about the Book of Daniel, specifically chapter 4:
“Pride is the building up of man and the downsizing of God.”
That is the first time that you even admitted it FOF, so perhaps we are making progress.
Yes, FOF, the GRACE that applies to Exaltation or the individual is CONDITIONAL. This is what you don’t seem to get. Those are the quotes that you are trying to say don’t say this. But they do.
LDS Bible Dictionary: “This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation AFTER they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice WITHOUT TOTAL EFFORT on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO’ (2 Nephi 25:23).”
And,
The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins. (Lund)
You can have the Grace of Christ, but it is not ACTIVATED, or brought into power UNTIL you do works. Therefore, you must EARN The GRACE that gets you to Exaltation. Therefore, in Mormonism, Christ’s Free Grace is only Good for a resurrection, the rest is CONDITIONAL GRACE. Therefore Mormons are not saved 100% by Grace. They are saved by their forced works because if they did not do them, they could not access the Grace to save them. This is quite obvious, but incomprehensible to such as you.
I didn’t have to spin them. They said exactly what they say, which is what I’ve been saying all along, there is free grace and conditional grace in Mormonism. (One that gives only a resurrection, and one that you have to earn). And only people like you would be embarrassed by a quote from the 1930’s, else why bring it up? Why do you have to go back to the 1830’s to get your quotes? (The Book of Mormon) But that is ok with you, because you are a hypocrite.
I’m not acting like this at all, I’m providing evidence that you can’t handle. The works DO save you, or you wouldn’t be forced to do them. Duh. How stupid is this? You even said it yourself:
Do you have to live the word of wisdom to get into the CK? Most assuredly. So if you don’t live it, the Grace of Christ does not apply to you to get you your exaltation, only enough to get you to a lower kingdom where you don’t get to live with God. The Bible does not teach this. Mormonism teaches that there is CONDITIONAL GRACE, based on FORCED WORKS. You are not then, saved by Grace 100%, because you must work for your Grace, it is not a free gift. (Unless you only want a resurrection and a lower kingdom of “glory”, which no one wants).
The bottom line is that you still haven’t addressed these issues. So it is you who are lying by omission. I understand Mormon Doctrine Perfectly. It is you who don’t.
Oh FOF, get your own material. You are the one who has been caught in numerous errors, plagiarisms and other comprehension mistakes. We all know this. Sad, that you are such an arrogant hypocrite that you can’t acknowledge this, and have to try and play “I know you are but what am I” games instead of really answering the doctrinal issues that plague Mormonism. Once again, I’ve broken it down for you. Try and pay attention.
FoF said
The problem with this FoF is this, You must use sources other than the Bible to back this up, You cannot back this up from The Bible alone, and you have yet to explain why Jesus and Paul and the Bible have stated otherwise.
So since you cannot answer this, let me say this,
You are incorrect in almost 100% of your posts. You just cannot get anything correct regarding our doctrine or me.
And:
That is why I really do not like exchanging with you. It always distracts from real discussion and is always based on your lies and spin. And I am tired of it. I really don’t have time for people whose minds are in such a very,very small box and have no interest in respect and dialogue. You do not understand even the most basic of our doctrines. A reasonable and wise person usually recognizes their limits. Please clue in to yours.
If you cannot honesly debate and reply, then why are you here? Why not just pack up your fasle prophets and their false doctrine and go home?
FofF said ,
” Mike R — I am fine to simply disagree with you . I really don’t think you understand our
religion .”
Don’t answer the points I made , simply claim I don’t understand your religion . That’s your
response ? Wow. I think part of the problem is that you make the mistake of thinking that
your views on certain Mormon doctrines are the same as what your leaders have said , and
unfortunately for you this is not true in some cases . All I can do to understand Mormon
doctrine is to read what your leaders have taught because it is they , not you , who define it .
You make statements like Mormons are saved by grace , and works do not save you , etc .
However I find that when salvation , being saved , is the context ( receiving eternal life )
that your leaders have clearly taught that faith/grace PLUS works are necessary in order to
receive such . It’s compliance to a set /system of rules , laws ,regulations, that Mormons
call their “restored gospel ” of Jesus . Yet you have claimed that describing your gospel as a
set of rules is not a correct , it’s without justification or support . However, that is how some
Mormon authorities have indeed described it . This is’nt the only time that you have drifted
away from what your leaders have taught on certain issues , or the interpretation of certain
verses of scriptures .
When you say things like , ” Yes works are required . but they are not what saves us .”
Do you think that statement through ? ” Works are required ” , ” works are required ” ,
required for what ? In Mormonism the answer is : to receive salvation ( eternal life ) !
A lot of works . In fact there are so many laws, principles , rules that the Mormon heavenly
Father and His wife had to learn of and keep in order to get to merit eternal life that a Mormon
general authority taught there was a ” untold number ” of these . That’s quite a man made
system . So start climbing that huge “gospel ladder ” of works your leaders have described as
the ” way ” up to God’s presence above and earn eternal life .
The Mormon people deserve apostles that can correctly teach them how to be forgiven,
accepted by God , and receive eternal life with Him in heaven . But sadly they are being short
changed by their modern day apostles ” restored gospel ” preaching .
Jesus’ true apostles can be trusted to reveal the gospel that saves —Rom 1:16 ; 3:23-25; 10:9-3 ;
11:6 .
“The Mormon people deserve apostles that can correctly teach them how to be forgiven,
accepted by God , and receive eternal life with Him in heaven . But sadly they are being short
changed by their modern day apostles ” restored gospel ” preaching .
Jesus’ true apostles can be trusted to reveal the gospel that saves —Rom 1:16 ; 3:23-25; 10:9-3 ;
11:6 .”
If what we see in this video is representative of all Mormon teaching, they are not receiving a message that God readilly forgives and once forgiven they are accepted by God and will spend eternity with Him in heaven. Rather, they are taught that they must “do” to avoid being tempted by the devil and that failure to “do” will only inch them closer to the devil’s grasp which he can never lose.