An email from a former Mormon (I’ll call “XM”) arrived in my inbox. He was disturbed over a video he found on You Tube. In the video, (now) LDS President Thomas Monson instructs LDS missionaries on how to find investigators (people interested in learning about the Mormon Church with a eye toward membership).
XM wrote,
“…listen closely at who he wants the missionaries to target. First he tells them how to ‘set the stage’ [with members] by using ‘loaded language’ (Mind control tactic #6 of 8 Lifton) and addressing the ‘sacred science’ (Mind Control tactic #5 of 8, Lifton). Then he goes on to [clarify] who he wants the missionaries to talk to by asking the member family, ‘first, who do you know who has recently lost a loved one; second, who do you know who has welcomed a newly born child to the family; third, who do you know who has recently moved into the neighborhood; fourth, who do you know who has trouble coping with their teenage children?’ All four of the examples have a common thread, all the people are in a vulnerable position and have just had an emotional or challenging experience happen in their life. Doesn’t it seem odd that the LDS organization that claims that it represents God would use [these] predatory practices?”
If you can get past the strong language he uses, XM raises a point worthy of discussion. Note that Mr. Monson talks about the “best way for a Mission to achieve its optimum productivity.” He says it won’t happen if the missionaries casually ask members for referrals. The missionaries need to find people who are at a vulnerable point in their lives in order to be successful.
XM wrote,
“I call these predatory practices because Monson does not ask for people who are: one, Stable in their Jobs; two, have a stable family life; three, who do you know who has raised their family in an honest fashion; and four, who do you know who is looking for the truth. Why would Monson want the missionaries to go after people who have experienced a major change in their life? We all become weak from time to time, emotional stress tends to take its toll, this is when the missionaries strike.
“The reason is surprisingly simplistic. People who have experienced one or more of the life changing or challenging events Monson describes are generally more open to hearing language that is best described as cult like language. Robert Lifton and Alan Hassan describe this technique as ‘Love Bombing.’ Love bombing is basically killing them with kindness. It is easy to conclude that someone who is having an emotional event in their life, who is feeling lonely, or confused by a situation, would be open and more receptive to a cult’s advances.”
When I first watched this video of President Monson, I thought, “Well, hurting people need the Good News and hope that Christ can bring into their shaky lives.” But then I realized that Mr. Monson is not suggesting that hurting people be ministered to in the name of the Lord. He’s not suggesting that the LDS missionaries bring them the hope and peace of Christ. He’s suggesting that these people be used to achieve optimum productivity for the Mission.
XM explained,
“It is completely appropriate to reach out to families and individuals who are experiencing life altering events; as a matter of fact it is important to be the friendly neighbor and friend. Most people help out or lend a shoulder to cry on out of the goodness of their heart. The difference here is that Monson has the intention of converting those families and individuals. The perceived concern for the family or person is conditional, the missionaries have an ulterior motive; that is to baptize. Jesus died for our sins, with no strings attached. It’s just disheartening that the organization that claims to be the ‘one true church’ has to resort to manipulative tactics that prey on people who are already having a tough time.”
People in the midst of these life-changing circumstances are tender. They’re afraid. They’re frustrated. They’re at the end of their ropes or feeling a heavy weight of responsibility. They don’t really need answers to questions about where they came from or why they’re here. They don’t need pressure to join the “One True Church” with all of its burdens piled on top of their already overloaded backs. They need their burdens relieved, their fears calmed, their hopes renewed.
They don’t need to become a statistic that allows an LDS mission to “achieve its optimum productivity.” They need Jesus–the one and only answer for their souls.
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me,
for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.”
Matthew 11:28-29
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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Falcon,
You keep missing the point where I say that the “stuff we do” (as you put it) comes from our faith in Jesus. We believe in Jesus, we believe that He has asked us to do something (eg get baptised, go to the temple, pay our tithing, remain chaste, do not murder, etc) and because of our faith in Jesus we will do it. If we do not have the faith in Jesus but do it anyway, it will get us no where in terms of salvation.
Let’s look at what Rvales said –
“We have faith in Jesus–>The Holy Spirit (God) lives in us–>The Holy Spirit (God) works through us–>God’s will be done”
I can totally agree with most of this (not the Holy Spirit lives in us part). To put it in the way I am trying to say it it would be –
We have faith in Jesus–> Our faith makes us want to follow Him -> The Holy Spirit comes into our lives to guide us –> God’s will is done (whether is it repentance, baptism, chastity, tithing, temple, etc).
The fourth article of faith – First faith – This is where the Holy Ghost first touches our lives, but it is only the influence, not the gift – then the rest comes from faith; ie second repentance, third baptism, fourth gift of the Holy Ghost. Then we are taught to endure to the end through our faith.
It has nothing to do with us working by ourselves without guidance from The Holy Ghost to get to heaven, nor is it buying a ticket to the temple.
But if our faith is not judged by our works, then you are saying that the Bible is incorrect in the verses above which state quite clearly “they were judged every man according to their works.” and “he shall reward every man according to his works”
Ralph, scripturally, are those works (and not the LDS ordinances) prescriptive for salvation or descriptive of salvation?
Sub, your description of the missionary program must be that anecdotal evidence you hate so much. Try selling that to the tens of thousands of missionaries who have left your church and now say it was all a con job.
Ralph,
What is God’s will? 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that it is not God’s will for anyone to perish. In the past year my church has been studying the Old Testament and I don’t think I could count how many times the Isrealites are told to do xyz so that all will know that their Lord is the one and only God. They were a mess and God didn’t say do xyz and then I will mercifully save you. He said do xyz so that everyone else knows that I am God. As a faithful believer in Jesus Christ I don’t have to do xyz to be anymore saved but God will work those things out thru me so that others around me will know there is something different about me and I can be used by God to draw others near him. My works aren’t to save me…the works God does thru me are to save others. But if I dig in my heals and seize control from God (doing both good or bad things on my own accod) then he will accomplish his will another way. He doesn’t let go of me though. I dug in my heels for 6 years and God never once left me. He accomplished his goals without my cooperation and I know that I was truly saved 16 years ago regardless of my prodigal ways because nothing I could do or tried to do was enough to steal me away from God (John 10:28) I was a mess but I was God’s mess and he was working everything out in me despite my obstinance. I don’t have to live in fear of not doing enough. I’ve embraced that I’ll NEVER do enough. I’ll NEVER do all that I could do. But I am faithful that God meant it when he said I couldn’t but that He did so I have no desire to prove him wrong by any ‘righteousness checklist’
Falcon
Don’t ever get discouraged. Your efforts on this board are nothing short of heroic. I’m amazed you have such a grasp on Mormonism from such a distance. You haven’t seen up close the workings of the cult. The constant reinforcement a member receives on a daily basis. Never underestimate the power of peer pressure to mold and shape these guys and their behaviors. Your dealing with the internet Danites Sub, Ralph etc., not the run of the mill Mo’s. You’ve offered them the truth and they reject it. The effect you have had on others you may never know in this life. I can promise you your efforts are not in vain. Redemption and reclamation of souls in a slow person by person process. Your battling the spiritual equivalent of the ebola virus… Mormonism. God Bless
(Ditto for all my Christian Brothers)
lather
“Im not going to go over the Christian faith/works position.” …because you either can not or dare not.
this type of “grasp” on the scriptures and Mormonism is like handful of water that one keeps squeezing…its just plain leaky and after a time all that is left is a fist.
The lurker easily sees the truth in the spirit of those obsessed with destruction.
Rinse
constant insistence that faith without works is live is a certain path to a bad judgement day. Yes, you will at least not be turned away because you do know Jesus, but you will surely be judged.
repeat
we are not God’s puppets, we have His glorious gift of free agency. Those that buy into the bigotry and exclusivity of predestinaton are foolish…..there is a Book of Life, and names written into it and erased from it….how can this be with a set in stone God? it simply can not, this shows that God has given us a role in our own salvation. Free agency is the only thing that seprates an individual from the robot factory of the modern evangelical.
I think I’m to the place where I’m going to quit reading and responding to Sub. Not that you’ll mind, I’m sure, right genius?
But Ralph,
Dang it Ralph,
If you would bother to take your “I know this church is true” glasses off, you may be able to see the parts of the Bible that they are obscuring from your vision.
Martin,
Excellent conclusion, and I wish there were a cure, a solution as well. But if there were, it would be us doing it, not Jesus. So… I will take heart that the ones not posting are the ones He’s bringing in.
The other thing I enjoy out here is listening to my fellow Christians talk… it’s so nice to see that though we didn’t grow up together, though we don’t go to the same church buildings, we believe the same way because we read the Bible. It has taken me quite a while to shed Mormonism and be free of it when reading. But praise be to God it’s almost gone!
This has been my favorite post ever, because of meeting JJM, and seeing first hand that someone out there is listening.
God bless!
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 Sub and Ralph I wish you could grasp the true work done on the cross.
Martin said
“You can’t keep Christ locked away in one “room”. He demands access to your WHOLE life.”
What irony! If Martin had any clue about the temple was all about he would realize that everything there is teaching us exactly the doctrine he is trying to tell us we can’t see! And besides, the EV’s here have made it abundantly clear that, according to Christian doctrine, none of us have the capability to provide the access you are demanding.
It is the temple, not exegesis, that shows us the hope of redemption through Christ.
As far as agreeing with everything an Ev says to us, I will say that this is done for two reasons.
1. Part truth: If Martin says the true temple is Christ, we would agree. Which is precisely why Temples are in existence. The true temple has commanded these structures to be built. And who are we to instruct the True Temple?
2. Sphere of responsibility: this is something that will be difficult for EV’s to understand because they have assumed the role of protector, defender and proclaimer of all truth. Therefore nothing is off limits. LDS understand that the Holy Ghost is responsible to “teach all things” not us. We have been commanded to testify and warn the people; very difficult not to overstep those bounds. But when we do, the Spirit withdraws and we are left to teach in the same way the EV’s do (through analysis and debate).
The bottom line is the the seed of Adam is blinded by the burden of sin (a favorite topic of the EV’s). Opposition and sorrow, almost universally, causes the children of God to ask the most fundamental questions. Questions that only the true gospel can answer: Where did I come from, why am I here, and where am I going. I realize this is going to be a sensitive topic for the EV’s because they do not have the answers. I applaud Monson for having the discernment to instruct missionaries on how to best approach the most daunting of tasks. I also want to applaud all those who elect to humble themselves and teach the gospel by the Spirit and refuse to be tempted by intellectual debate.
Sub, you asked this question 3 days ago:
“that being said…how does he average Ev poster here recognize their own missionary opportunities?”
What do you think MRM and the ministry Bill McKeever has set up is about? What do you think Aaron and Sharon are doing when they post articles? What do you think the Christians who post here are doing? Did we not give the gospel to J.J.M? How about Ralph? In the past I have given you the gospel in a comapassionate manner, and I still proclaim the truth to you(even though we disagree).
Sub, I have never heard you speak a kind word to anyone that disagreed with you. I have never seen your write that you were praying for one of us, or seen you proclaim the smithian gospel in love. It has always been in the form of an attack.
You constantly appeal to the unseen lurker who supposedly can see through our evil message bent on the destruction of others. I think the hatred you spew is much more indicative of one who is bent on the destruction of others. Ralph does not conduct himself that way. Are you sure that they don’t see the utter hatred and contempt that you have for others, even your supposed sister J.J.M?
I can imagine the apostle Paul was much like you, breathing threats of murder upon the saints. I also pray that one day, Like Paul (he’s my hero y’know) you will speak these words, “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 1:12-14)
Still praying for you, Sub, and I hope my next post will enlighten you as well as the “lurker”
Sub, you mock the God of the bible as being bigoted for His doctrine of predestination, not realizing that He owes you nothing, but what you deserve for your sin and rebellion. It is His right to select some out of the masses of humanity to glorify Himself by His mercy and His grace. He does not need to give you a “choice” to be fair, because your choice has already been determined by your nature. Hating God is your decision. God’s grace makes you want to choose Him, despite your nature.
My God’s laws and decrees are written in stone, and I am thankful for that. I will not wake up tomorrow and find the words of the bible (KJV if you like) changed. I will not go to church on Sunday and hear a different salvation message than the one I heard last week or eight years ago. The message that I preach is the same that was preached by men like William Tyndale, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, and other men who gave their lives, being martyred, for ripping the bible out of the hands of the Roman Catholic Church to reveal its message of salvation by grace through faith to all those who repent of their sins and place their faith in the resurrected Jesus Christ, who bore God’s wrath that I deserved on the cross. This message is over 500 years old and has not changed since the bible was written thousands of years ago.
I can read letters from Athenagoras to Marcus Aurelius Antonius ca. 165 AD defending Christians being martyred for proclaiming the same God that I proclaim. I can read Irenaeus who wrote against the same heresies your church now proclaims in the mid second century.
You proclaim a god whose strong point is his ability to change? Why would I want your god? The “restored” gospel and the god who authored it are less than 200 years old, yet he is not the same as he was in 1830 when JS first revealed him. His doctrines and ordinances are not the same today as they were in the 1830’s, 1880’s, 1950’s, 197o’s, or 1990’s. I can’t trust him.
Poor DOTF, you finally admitted it. Thank you for your honesty. It’s about time a smithian did that. The bible, and reading it according to how the author intended it to be interpreted, is a foolish exercise. If studied at all, it is meant to be interpreted by asking oneself, “What does this passage mean to me?”, without regard to what it actually says and means. Exegesis based upon rationale is ridiculous.
In fact, the bible is ridiculous. We actually learn about god by going through the temple, a system that was created by man according to his desire to wrest godhood from God, and has changed so many times since its inception that nobody actually knows its original form. And since it is so “sacred” we cannot even talk about it amongst each other, we cannot admit that it has changed since my grandparents, parents, and I went through it over the decades. This explains why every mo has a different view of their gospel. To each his own according to what he has learned about god in the temple. Ah, the glorious changing mormon god. Tomorrow may reveal that you are to pay for indulgences for your departed loved ones and others instead of just baptizing them by proxy. Maybe you will learn that coffee is ok to drink.
Like I said above, my God is forever unchanging. He is a God that I can place my faith and trust in.
Sub
It appears you are up against the doctrine of predestination, a modern-day Rameumptom if you will. The is no argument against this manifestation of pride. Imagine the exercise in psychosis this kind of god must be…creating (or allowing to be created) separate sinful beings; one destined for damnation the other for salvation.
If it makes you feel better, I guarantee the majority of EV’s here would argue with Liv and predestination. Unfortunately, their objective is to tear down the Church and not destroy false doctrine.
It is these kind of sweeping statements that have dominated smith’s cult for the past 180 years…
‘I guarantee the majority of the EV’s believe…’ ‘They are ALL wrong’, They are all an ‘abomination’, they are all ‘corrupt’.
But what is TAUGHT (& has been taught – depends on what ‘prophet’ you want to believe) in smith’s cult is doctrines that ADAM is God, that joe smith is a god, that the husband is a god to his wife, etc. That grandfather god put god Adam in the garden of eden, etc. ad nauseum. It is false doctrine and smith’s cult is FULL OF IT.
All Polytheistic nonsense. I see comments like: “we are left to teach in the same way the EV’s do (through analysis and debate).”
That is EXACTLY what happened with Adam-God, Polygamy, Priesthood to the Blacks, the Mary Heresy, and a host of others. Your ‘why,where’ questions brought all of these heresies on by men who wouldn’t know the Holy Ghost from an appearance by Satan as an angel of light, because they reject the Bible as untrustworthy and believe in peep stones and hat tricks.
We do know the answers to questions about why we are here. Jesus taught us everything we need to know. I find one of the best paraphrases in the Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
Simple. Like the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You don’t have to be a god to understand that.
JJM, if you’re still around– If it ever becomes the case that you want to chat off Mormon Coffee, and you care to do so with me, here’s my email:
[email protected]
To put things in context:
“there is a Book of Life, and names written into it and erased from it….how can this be with a set in stone God? it simply can not…”
NOT according to smith’s cult (smith, mcconkie, JFsmith, marion Romney & a host of others):
“We are told that we should seek in this life to have our calling and election made sure. We can have the DAY OF JUDGEMENT ADVANCED, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured PRIOR to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with the ‘Father in his throne’.”
There is a constant repetition by the LDS posters on this board that we wish to destroy the church. That is not my goal nor do I think it is necessary. My god uses weakness to bring about his glory. The weakness of Mormonism is it’s heretical, unbiblical, ever-changing message via Mormon prophets. This is also potentially its greatest strength. A revelation from God to Tom Monson could change everything overnight.
My prayer is Tyndale’s prayer “Open The king of Englands eyes” maybe someday he will open Thomas Monson’s eyes.
bfwjr,
Thanks for the shout out. I appreciate it! It’s true, I pretty much ignore the Mormon posters except for Ralph who has a gentle and kind spirit. Actually I happened, by total “accident”, to be right in the heart of about 100% Mormonland a few weeks back. There is no doubt that God arranged it. I was on a super secret stealth assignment for the Lord. I ran into a lot of very nice Mormons and was very appreciative of their hospitality.
Ralph,
I dialed in Andy Watson today on my way back from one of my retirement gigs and he explained a few things to me about Mormon “salvation”. First of all Andy says when Mormons talk about salvation they are really referring to a kind of universal salvation that results in the resurrection of all mankind. In Mormon lore, there is no such thing as original sin, hence no hell. The second part of the Mormon program is exaltation to godhood. That’s where all the works come in.
So this exaltation is where the five points of the Mormon testimony plus all of the works appear, including paying a share of income to buy entry into the temple (to do more works) to become a god.
So when a Christian talks about salvation we are talking about obtaining the gift of eternal life through faith/acceptance of Jesus’ finished work on the Cross.
I dialed in one of the websites setfree had suggested. It was the testimonies of the former Mormon missionaries who are now born again to salvation through Jesus. One of the missionaries talked about how at the last meeting before heading home from his mission he was given the opportunity to share his testimony. He got up and testified that Jesus was the totality of the Gospel message. Well, while many of the other missionaries were crying as he testified to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, the leader had a cow. He had one of the assistants get up and talk about how Jesus was not enough. That one had to believe in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church and the current prophet.
Cont.
Well the rest of the story is that the Bishop or whoever, called this missionary, who found salvation through faith in Jesus into his office, questioned him, and had him turn over his temple recommend…..which he did gladly.
Jesus is enough because there is no exaltation to godhood. There is One, everlasting, eternal, never-changing God. Faith in Jesus’ finished work on the cross satisfies God’s requirement of sinless perfection to enter his presence. The stumbling block of Mormonism separates the Mormon from God. The Mormon program requires that the follower of Smith confess belief in Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet. The Mormon must then fork over 10% of their gross income to get into the temple where more works are done. In the end, even all of this may not be enough. Mormons have no assurance that all of their striving will get them their godhood and planetary system.
This all of course was left out of the Bible by a grand conspiracy.
setfree
to stop reading my posts is certainly your choice isn’t it?
liv4jc
still didn’t answer my question from 3 days ago. unless your answer was that you google for opportunities….i mean how do you recognize a person or opportunity to be a missionary?
falcon
personally I have always known that you don’t ever pay much attention to Mormon posts.
but just in case
lather, rinse, and repeat
rvales,
Thank you for your comments, they were truly enlightening.
I notice the language of the Corinthian quote, the word of the cross… Paul has that just right, we don’t worship it, we understand the sacrifice of Jesus and we take up our own.
I truly love the analogy of that, and your words that we cannot do all of it like HE did:
“He accomplished his goals without my cooperation and I know that I was truly saved 16 years ago regardless of my prodigal ways because nothing I could do or tried to do was enough to steal me away from God (John 10:28) I was a mess but I was God’s mess and he was working everything out in me despite my obstinance. I don’t have to live in fear of not doing enough. I’ve embraced that I’ll NEVER do enough. I’ll NEVER do all that I could do…”
are an echo of my own struggles. Jesus my Captian, my King, and my Saviour has been there and WILL always be there. All He requires is belief in HIM. All I had to do was call on Him & BELIEVE in HIM. He does the rest, and gives us the JOY to help others through the power of HIS Spirit, which is alive today and works tirelessly to reveal all we need to know to help us through our struggles.
In the true spirit of Christian Brotherhood, thanks, and God Bless you & your family at this most beautiful time of year.
P.S. Love Bogart, have ALL his movies, even the early ones…
(T)emples necessary.
(R)estored church doctrine.
(A)dam-god & polytheist doctrines.
(N)ot enough to believe in Jesus.
(S)alvation through works doctrine.
(P)olygamy & eternal marriage.
(A)postasy of Christ’s church.
(R)acist doctrines.
(E)xalted-man God still progressing doctrine.
(N)eed for a priesthood.
(T)he book of mormon needed.
subgenius asked
(BTW, though it might be tiresome, I’ll stick to the practise of trying to answer a Mormon directly when they ask a direct question).
If you mean “mission” in the general sense that the Christian is to “incarnate” the Gospel in his or her ordinary life, then there is no need for formal “recognition”. Basically, we have Jesus’ standing orders, which are well-founded in the ancient Israelite tradition of being witnesses of God. Every Christian is on a “mission” all of the time.
If you mean “mission” in a specialist sense (as in, go and do church work in Matabililand, or wherever), then there has to be a convergence of several factors. I suggest the following;
1 The sense by the local church leadership that this is the Holy Ghost’s initiative on a certain person’s life
2 That the person being called is equipped in terms of being able to understand and articulate the gospel (usually, this requires theological training)
3 That the person being called is equipped in terms of life-skills, job-skills, character and habit(usually, this requires more life-experience than most 18-20 year olds have)
A couple of years ago some close friends of mine, who are on a “special” mission in central asia, polled their Christian freinds about whether to move out of their country’s capital into one of the regional cities. I wrote back to say that if anyone could do it, they could, primarily because they had the right attitude. At the time, I didn’t need to consider points 1 and 2 above because, in their case, they had already been demonstrated to be more than competent.
Earlier on this post I said that Baptism into the LDS church was a must for “salvation”, according to Mormonism.
One of our Mormon posters said I was being misleading or something similar.
Here is a direct quote:
“We must be baptized to become members of the restored Church—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—and to eventually enter the kingdom of heaven. This ordinance is a law of God and must be performed by His authority. A bishop or mission president must give a priesthood holder permission to perform a baptism or confirmation”
that is under the “Baptism and Confirmation” subheading of “The Commandments”, which commandments are part of the “fulness” of the “restored gospel”
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
“So this exaltation is where the five points of the Mormon testimony plus all of the works appear, including paying a share of income to buy entry into the temple (to do more works) to become a god.”
LOL, it’s tough being in school to become a God. Whew. Tithing, Keeping all the Commandments, Loving all our enemies, working harder each and every day to make ourselves even more better. Hmmm, hope I’m dong it right. It would be so much easier to just be a EVANGELICAL. 🙂