“For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—
to bear witness to the truth.”
Dr Dirk Jongkind, a Research Fellow at Tyndale House, pieces together the earliest manuscript evidence for the New Testament and shows how it tells the story of Jesus’ trial before Pilate.
“Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, ‘Hail, King of the Jews!’ and struck him with their hands. Pilate went out again and said to them, ‘See, I am bringing him out to you that you may know that I find no guilt in him.’ So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, ‘Behold the man!’ When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, ‘Crucify him, crucify him!'” -John 19
There are a couple of assertions made within Mormonism, I'll call them mottos, that the faithful Mormon learns to repeat over and over again in order to justify Mormonism. One of these mottos is that "After the death of the apostles, the true Gospel was lost and it needed to be restored." Thus the justification is made for any and every claim that Mormon leaders starting with Joseph Smith want(ed) to make regarding what was first century Christianity. There is no record of Mormonism in the NT so we have another convenient motto: "The Bible has been copied so many times that the truth (i.e. Mormonism) was left out of it." This empty assertion is accompanied by the grand conspiracy theory, also unproven, that the scribes copying the NT purposely left out the Mormonism.
Now the problem is that Mormons are trained not to question only to believe what they are told. So they never ask any follow-up questions to test the veracity of these claims regarding the first century church and the Biblical text. What we know about the Biblical text is that it is amazingly accurate. We know this because the oldest surviving manuscripts are compared to one another to see if they say the same thing. What has been found is that any differences in the texts are minor and don't affect any point of doctrine of the orthodox Christian faith.
I enjoyed this video because in a short snippet, it gets at this idea regarding the accuracy of the Bible. Now whether or not someone wants to believe that the Biblical message is true is another matter. However we can be confident that what the first century writers of the NT wrote has been preserved for us today.
Joseph Smith had to concoct some sort of narrative to justify his religious creation. Although starting off fairly conventional in his thoughts, Smith eventually went on a nefarious journey of fanciful thinking (as false prophets do) and developed a new god, with a new Jesus, a new Holy Ghost and a new two tier plan of salvation.
At this time of Easter we Christians celebrate the real Jesus and commemorate what He did for us on the cross. Jesus death, burial and resurrection confirm to us that He is God incarnate. His shed blood provides us with the means of our salvation, through faith. Jesus' resurrection proves to us that He was indeed the qualified Savior who alone could redeem us from the penalty of our sin. Without the right Jesus, there is no forgiveness of sin. The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus revealed in the Bible. The Mormon Jesus is not the qualified Savior. Putting trust and confidence in the Mormon Jesus through whom Mormons hope they can become gods is an error with eternal consequences.
Now what's interesting is that we do have surviving copies of the original BoM. What do we find when we compare the original BoM with today's version? What we find are a lot, and I mean a lot of changes in the BoM from Joseph Smith's original creation. There are changes in the BoM that affect basic doctrine. Smith and Co. had to do a ton of cleaning-up along the way because obviously Smith's magic rock in the hat trick didn't provide for him an uncorrupted rendition of what was on those gold plates he found in the ground. Weren't those being guarded by a giant toad or some such thing?
Smith also found it necessary to change the KJV of the Bible. I don't know if he used his magic rock or not to do this but what he ended up with was a Bible that says what he wanted it to say rather than what it does say. God does not look real kindly on false prophets who change His Word. It's funny, the false charge that Mormons make about the scribes leaving things out of the Bible actually does apply to Joseph Smith as he changed the Biblical text to suit his own perverted notions of what the Bible should say.
falcon,
I don't know if you live in Utah or not, but the other night there was a story on the news about how the LDS church had just printed it's 150 millionth Book of Mormon. There was so much hype about what a miraculous thing it is because that is a lot for only 183 years of being in print. I was curious so I looked up how many times the Bible has been printed, If I'm understanding it correctly, as of 2007 the Bible has been printed an estimated 7.5 BILLION times since 1816. I also read that it has been printed 100 million times a month and in 1,400 different languages! That is so staggering.
Now what's interesting is that we do have surviving copies of the original BoM. What do we find when we compare the original BoM with today's version? What we find are a lot, and I mean a lot of changes in the BoM from Joseph Smith's original creation.
I was never aware of this until I started researching. I will bet most faithful LDS have no idea that there have been changes, or if they do know they believe that those changes are just correction in grammar. I find it interesting how mormons (I was this way too) just shut down their brain when told facts like this. I truly believed that when someone said something against the church, they were just deceived and didn't have the "truth" or the old "persecution" theory would pop up. It is also interesting how mormons say the Bible needs to be translated correctly and it isn't reliable because "plain and precious" truths have been removed and those pesky monks changed doctrine, but yet they refuse to see where their own leaders are CONSTANTLY changing doctrine, theory and even their own scriptures. I'm also wondering why they don't use the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible as other mormon sects do. From what I understand, they would have that translation if Emma Smith would have handed it over to Brigham Young when he demanded it from her.
falcon, I think that since mormons have included the Bible as one of their Standard Words that
therefore if they are to convince us that Mormonism is true , this would be where to start. Why not
start on common ground ? It's just to convenient for Mormon apologists and Mormon leaders to
denegrate the Bible. Also, concerning the Book of Mormon changes, that's a red flag but I'm not so
sure there is a lot of miles to get out of that topic. I think the massive changes in the D&C is where
red flags are raised in my mind . It gets even more disturbing when we factor in the teaching
track record of Mormon prophets and apostles , the spiritual guidance of these "modern day "
prophets. Anyway, just my musing .
Very Good Kate.
I don't know how you ended up with a rating of 0 on your post when I got here but there's obviously a disgruntled Mormon troll about on MC. I give you ***** (that's 5 out of 5 stars).
Facts are stubborn things, it has been said and you laid some excellent ones out there on your post. I don't live in Utah and where I live we have an occasional Mormon sighting. They're as rare as Panda Bears around here and not as cute! I do know a couple of Mormons and have always gotten along fine on the rare occasions that I encounter them. They would probably be shocked to know that I'm the infamous falcon of MC fame.
I appreciate your perspective as an exMormon especially since you were so into it. Those of us who haven't been there are really at a disadvantage in as much as we don't know how it "feels". I don't get too upset about people being locked into the myth of Smith but I do wonder how they can continue down that road making up excuses, alibis and rationalizing and explaining away that which demonstrates that Mormonism is a scam. I always thought, before I got into this, all you had to do is show them the evidence and they'd go "BONK, I should have had a V8! The old light bulb moment.
But it's like that old joke: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? ANSWER: Just one, but the light bulb has to want to change!
Please keep posting here. We need your perspective.
Fantastic video. Could it be providential that God preserved that particular piece of manuscript?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
As I was reading the comments under the video, I liked them because I just did a cartoon (with discussion questions) on the very topic of the 1830 edition of The Book of Mormon versus the modern edition. (It was posted on Wednesday.)
I hope it's OK to post a link here. (If not, you can delete it, moderator.)
http://noapologiesallowed.wordpress.com/2011/04/2…
Feedback is welcomed!
Joshua
WW,
Where does the Journal of Discourses come into play? I think that's where a lot of the wild and wolly, mind-bending pronouncements by Mormon leaders are presented. I think Mormons like to put the JoD in the "doesn't count" column. I don't know what does count in Mormonism. This is a very handy technique in Mormonism. It's like a moving target. I'm thinking the BoM does count but I don't know which edition. If the BoM is inconsistent with subsequent revelations, which counts?
Maybe the warm fuzzy feelings about what the Mormon prophets and apostles have and do say constitute what counts unless it doesn't. Right?
At the end of the day what counts in Mormonism is that the member pay their tithe. They can, in the words of one BYU professor, believe whatever they want as long as they don't teach it.
falcon,
Where I live, 99% are mormon. I think because everyone believes mormonism, there really isn't anyone researching the truths. It's just one big happy bubble. I don't think a lot of mormons are aware of the Journal of Discourses. I wasn't. I didn't know they existed until I was 38! I stumbled across Shawn McCraney and Heart of the Matter about a year after I started questioning. He will never know how much he has helped me sort it all out. I'm hoping the internet, Christians and ex mormons will continue bringing the truth to light. It's hard to reach faithful mormons because of the " Don't read anything that isn't church approved." It feels wonderful to be free to use my OWN brain! 🙂 This lightbulb has changed!
falcon, I don't understand some Mormons in how they attempt to down play the Journal of
Discourses today. I bought the entire set 35 years ago as part of my research into Mormon
doctrine. I also bought current books which were by Mormon leaders. All this was to get a well
rounded , complete look at what Mormon prophets and apostles have offered as spiritual
guidance. What I found was that these men ,though sincere, could not be trusted to deliver
consistent reliable instruction of spiritual issues. I might guess that one day Mormon
leaders will collect all the Ensign Magazine issues and Conferance addresses and then
publish them in volumes for the edification of all LDS. This is bascially what the JofD is.
A very thoughtful way for Mormon leaders to pass on their legacy as teachers to future LDS .
I think the following is a good example of why God gave us the Bible: [part1]
"What is it about the LDS faithful they think they are immune to counterfeits ? It looks good,sounds
good, best of all, it feels good, until you get to those pearly gates and your spirit is detected as false.
A Mormon might say: ' It's not my fault the Mormon doctrines lied to me! I worked hard in the Church
and I gave god my all, even 10% of my income to cover church expenses. I gave fast offerings
monthly to feed the hungary. Gave all my old clothes to D.I. so the poor could buy them at dirt cheap
prices….those were expensive clothes. Everytime I prayed in the name of Jesus. in just the last 10
years i had 100% attendance . Kept my temple recommend current. Dis my duty to all my callings.
I followed the feelings in my heart that beckoned me. I can't help they led me astray, it's not my fault!'
[ part2]
Too bad….you were told that only the Holy Spirit could testify Jesus as the Son of God….but even
the demons believe the Son of God, they even testify of Him….God warned you, HE GAVE YOU HIS
WORD….but you turned to someone else because you just could'nt trust Him; you had to look for
something that felt better, sounded better and looked good to others; gave you the feeling that God
cannot be trusted, He cannot even keep His Word holy….Some of you hold a priesthood and
claim to have authority He did not give. For this GOD gave you the book of Hebrews. Some Mormons
say that evidence destroys faith and that salvation is for everyone, but ' exaltation' ( ultimate Mormon
salvation) is for those who've been baptized and received secret handshakes(tokens and signs) to
get there, so who needs evidence? For this God gave you the book of Romans.
[part3]
Mormonism would have us believe that one must be baptized in water by proper authority, and
this same authority is the only one to give you the Holy Spirit. For real baptism God gave you the
book of Acts. To receive Him, God gave you John 3 . All of these books and passages boil down
to one thing…. He gave you JESUS .
There are many counterfeits out there. If they were easy to detect, they would not be called
counterfeits. God gave us these wonderful books in the Bible to test these counterfeits. This is
where we find our markers to detect them. The Holy Spirit does not contradict God's Word.
On this, you can stake your eternal life. " [ from the Mormondoctrine.net site, a comment by
" Justjo ] May God give our LDS friends the strength to dismiss their leaders , and come to
a complete relationship with Jesus. May this start by doing as the Bereans —Acts 17:11
What a wonderful word "free". I imagine there's a lot of reasons why people stay in Mormonism, some when they don't believe a word of it.
I think you're right. Once a Mormon gets a little confidence and can stare down the fear mongering, they can start being free.
Mormonism is all about control. Control what people eat, drink, read, watch and do. Then get the community to control the individuals.
Is it true that Utah has one of the highest incidences of people accessing porn. sites?
I wonder why that is?
If true it probably has something to do with suppression. Having a relationship with Jesus and a healthy dose of freedom keeps us on the right track and away from serious sin. Start emphasizing sin and that's what people will be drawn to. Keep emphasizing Jesus and stay away from legalism. God said He would write His law on our hearts. When that happens we willingly serve Him.
I had a friend years ago that was a smoker and a runner. This went on for several years until one day he quit smoking. I asked him why? He said the two were incompatible. "I had to give-up one or the other", he said. He chose better health and physical fitness. It's the same our spiritual walk. We can't chose God and habitual sin. They are irreconcilable.
It's kind of funny how Mormons rationalize Joseph Smith's sins and try to white wash his life style choices. They try to justify it by trying to find someone in the Bible who was a sinner. That's the justification. It's not only his life style that disqualifies Smith, it's his ridiculous claims and views on the nature of God; among other things.
falcon,
I have read that Utah has the highest incidences of people accessing porn sights. It wouldn't surprise me. There was a book that came out a few years ago called "Between Husband and Wife: Gospel Perspectives on Marital Intimacy." I'm sure the LDS leaders would scream that it wasn't "official church docrine" but the mormon masses flocked to it to make sure they were towing the line! I've also read that Utah has the highest rates of depression, especially in women. That one really doesn't surprise me. I think women are the backbone of the LDS church (at least at the community level.) Men can say all they want, but women do most of it. I also know that if it weren't for women pressuring their husbands to be active in the church, there certainly wouldn't be as many men going at all. I know A LOT of couples like this. One thing that has always bothered me is that mormons won't let their children go to some of their friends houses at all because the father of the friend might drink a beer and that makes their home inappropriate. Never mind the fact that the mom who is saying this is herself addicted to pain meds and anti depressants DAILY. The thinking behind this is so twisted. I would think that the addiction would be far worse than someone drinking an occasional beer. Didn't Joseph Smith have a bar in his home? Did he not drink wine the day he was killed? I guess that part doesn't matter. Not faith promoting. Yes "free" would pretty much explain my life now!
WW,
Well said!
So what we're dealing with when it comes to the Bible, are the rules of the game, so to speak. God's revealed Word tells us about Him, His expectations for us, His work of redemption and (a history) of how His people have responded to His decree. What the Mormons are telling us is that God's written Word has been corrupted and therefore can't be trusted. What's needed, they say, are modern day prophets and apostles who reveal to the people, the mind of God.
The veracity and reliability of the Bible is what is in question. Now stop and think about this for a moment. Who are we going to trust? Are we going to trust the Holy Spirit to safeguard His revealed Word or are we going to trust a bunch of guys who are the equivalent of religious karaoke singers to tell us what God is saying? This is especially true since these Mormon prophets and apostles seem to have a difficult time "revealing" information that's consistent and accurate.
We all know about karaoke singers. They are a bunch of amateurs, some quite entertaining, who get up in a bar and sing accompanied by a canned music track. The audience is entertained by their friends and others who try their hand at singing, but no one is going to mistake these wannabees for the "real" performers.
Our Mormon friends have mistaken their religious karaoke prophets and apostles for the real thing. Despite all of the information to the contrary, the Mormons still leap up and give standing ovations to the fakes, as if they are the real thing. It's all based on the emotional experience that has been generated by the faux performers. Mormons don't seem to really mind that they are paying (tithes, offerings, time commitment) to this false troop of performers. It makes them feel good and that's all that counts.
Mormons, despite the fact that many feel that they are also receiving direct revelation from God, have basically outsourced their spiritual life to a bunch of guys who are no more qualified than they are to reveal the mind of God. I don't know how someone gets to be a Mormon apostle or prophet, but my guess is that it's more political than spiritual.
God does reveal Himself to us in a personal and corporate way but most of what is said to be "new", as far as we Christians go, is simply "new" to us. We just didn't know it, but it's been there waiting for us to get it. It's unknown. I discover things about people all the time; some folks I've known for years. With all of us, there is information that we know and so does everyone else. There is information that others know about us but we are blind to it. There's also hidden information.
In our finite minds, we can't know or appreciate everything about an infinite God. He's pretty much given us the narrative by which He wants us to function. He did this in His Word. He also gave spiritual gifts to the church to use as tools to guide us in our walk.
If an apostle or prophet doesn't even know who God is, what use are they? Anyone claiming to be an apostle or prophet who proclaims a new god, savior and plan of salvation needs to be rejected. At this time of Easter, Mormons need to come to an understanding of who God really is and what his plan of salvation entails.