Romney’s and Huntsman’s “pastors” on historic Christianity

Last week Deseret News published an article titled, “Michele Bachmann’s pastor on Mormonism.” The article notes that outspokenly Christian presidential-hopeful Michele Bachmann has not said what she thinks of Mormonism (the religion of two of her political opponents), but the pastor at her new church home has.

In July of 2007 Bob Merritt, pastor of Eagle Brook Church in Minnesota, preached a sermon titled, “Raise Your Religious IQ — Investigating Mormonism.” (This 35-minute sermon [#215] is available for free download via iTunes.) In Pastor Merritt’s remarks he pointed out some positive aspects of Mormon community life and called for respectful spiritual dialog between Mormons and Christians. Then he moved on to discuss four areas of core belief where Mormonism departs from the Christian faith including: 1) Source of authority and truth; 2) God; 3) Jesus; and 4) Salvation. Pastor Merritt’s conclusion was that, because Mormonism adds to God’s word and disagrees with the Bible on the core doctrines of the Christian faith, it is “untrue.”

I think it’s interesting that Deseret News finds the opinion of Michele Bachman’s pastor on Mormonism to be newsworthy. Since it does, I think it might also be newsworthy to look at what Mitt Romney’s and Jon Huntsman’s “pastors” (church leaders) have said about historic Christianity and its doctrines. Here are just a few thoughts expressed by Mr. Romney’s and Mr. Huntsman’s Mormon “pastors”:

“Some Christians, in large measure because of their genuine love for the Bible, have declared that there can be no more authorized scripture beyond the Bible. In thus pronouncing the canon of revelation closed, our friends in some other faiths shut the door on divine expression that we in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold dear: the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the ongoing guidance received by God’s anointed prophets and apostles. Imputing no ill will to those who take such a position, nevertheless we respectfully but resolutely reject such an unscriptural characterization of true Christianity” (Jeffrey R. Holland, “My Words…Never Cease,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2008, p. 91).

“May I divorce myself for the moment from the mainstream of present-day evangelical Christianity, swim upstream as it were, and give forth some rather plain and pointed expressions on this supposedly marvelous means of being saved with very slight effort. But before zeroing in on this religious mania that has now taken possession of millions of devout but deluded people, and as a means of keeping all things in perspective, let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity. This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity — and truly it is the father of all heresies — swept through all of the congregations of true believers in the early centuries of the Christian Era; it pertained then and pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. It was the doctrine, adapted from Gnosticism, that changed Christianity from the religion in which men worshipped a personal God, in whose image man is made, into the religion in which men worshipped a spirit essence called the Trinity. This new God, no longer a personal Father, no longer a personage of tabernacle, became an incomprehensible three-in-one spirit essence that filled the immensity of space. The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy” (Bruce R. McConkie, “What Think Ye of Salvation By Grace?” BYU Devotional Address given January 10, 1984. Transcribed from original speech).

“One of the most pernicious doctrines ever advocated by man, is the doctrine of ‘justification by faith alone,’ which has entered into, the hearts of millions since the days of the so-called ‘reformation.’” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Restoration of All Things, 1964, p. 192).

“FAITH, GRACE, AND WORKS. The fallacy that Jesus has done all for us, and live as we may, if on our deathbed, we only believe, we shall be saved in his glorious presence, is most pernicious. Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, has given us the means whereby man may obtain eternal happiness and peace in the kingdom of our Father, but man must work out his own salvation through obedience to the eternal principles and ordinances of the gospel. For centuries men have been blinded by the false teaching of ‘belief alone sufficient’; and today there is manifest on every hand the sorry plight into which this and other perverse doctrines have thrown the pseudo-Christian sects. The world is in sore need at the present time of the gospel of individual effort—the gospel of faith and works. He who will not grasp this means provided him, will sink beneath the waves of sin and falsehood” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 8).

“If the Savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., I doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian Church as the one that claimed descent from that which he had established, so far had it gone astray. Christianity had actually become a composite of Christian beliefs, practices, and doctrines, Jewish teachings and rituals; Greek, Roman, and Egyptian pagan philosophies: and pagan religions of various brands. The Holy Priesthood had been withdrawn from the earth. The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian Church. Thus there was a complete falling away from the gospel which had been established by the Son of Man. The Church lay in darkness, and the darkness enveloped the earth. This spiritual darkness continued for hundreds and hundreds of years” (Milton R. Hunter, Conference Reports, October 1951, pp. 140-141).

“Since the fifth century, Christianity taught that Adam and Eve’s Fall was a tragic mistake, which led to the belief that humankind has an inherently evil nature. That view is wrong – not only about the Fall and human nature, but about the very purpose of life. The Fall was not a disaster” (Bruce Hafen, “The Atonement: All for All,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2004, p. 97).

“The whole Christian world, in the days of the Prophet [Joseph Smith], believed falsely that God was a mystical spirit essence that filled the immensity of space and was everywhere and nowhere in particular present – all of which proved only that they were all heretics, that the apostasy was universal. Heresy is false doctrine” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 352. Italics in original).

(To maintain the idea that these men can be considered Mitt Romney’s and Jon Huntsman’s “pastors,” all of the above statements postdate Mr. Romney’s 1947 birth; all but David O. McKay’s statement postdate Mr. Huntsman’s 1960 birth.)

Additionally, here are a couple of comments on Christianity by Mitt Romney’s great-great-grandfather and LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt:

“The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of ‘Christendom,’ have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries. …The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations called ‘Christian,’ or in other words, the great whore of all the earth, for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.’” (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, GospeLink, p. 166. Ellipses mine).

“O man! be no longer deceived by solemn mockeries of things sacred, or by great and holy names applied to corrupt and degenerate systems. When the miracles and gifts of the divine Spirit ceased from among men, Christianity ceased, the Christian ministry ceased, the Church of Christ ceased. That ministry which sets aside modern inspiration, revelation, prophecy, angels, visions, healings, etc., is not ordained of God, but is anti-christian in spirit. In short, it is that spirit of priestcraft and kingcraft by which the world, for many ages, has been ruled as with a rod of iron. The sooner the present generation lose all reverence and respect for modern ‘Christianity’ with all its powerless forms and solemn mockeries, the sooner they will be prepared to receive the kingdom of God.” (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, GospeLink, pp. 110-111).

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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29 Responses to Romney’s and Huntsman’s “pastors” on historic Christianity

  1. Kate says:

    I can already tell that I am going to be sick to death of news articles and the media here in Utah by the time the next President is elected. One has to wonder what the motive of articles like this in the Deseret News is. To bring Mormons together in righteous indignation? To get Mormons to ban together and vote for one of the Mormon candidates? What is up with always throwing out the 14 million member number? Oops, I guess they forgot to print that only around 5 million are actually active. Of that 14 million number, two thirds are either inactive or have had their name and records removed. Let’s put that 14 million number in perspective. There are 851 million Hindus, 940 million Sunni Muslims, 1.1 billion Roman Catholics, 1.1 billion Christians in various denominations, I could go on, but these numbers alone dwarf Mormonism! The numbers for Mormonism really aren’t all that impressive.

  2. falcon says:

    Well thankfully neither Mr. Romney or Mr. Huntsman have to accept what these Mormon prophets and leaders have said. First of all, it’s just their opinion. Second of all, even if they claim to have heard from the Mormon god, the individual Mormon doesn’t have to accept it. A Mormon, in accepting or rejecting past prophets could also have a personal revelation that Joseph Smith went seriously bonkers post Book of Commandments. The BoA for example is one prime example of proof that the prophet Smith had no clue what he was doing. So a Mormon could reject that also and still be a Mormon. Personal revelation trumps what the Mormon church teaches, remember.
    In fact, a Mormon could believe in the God of the Bible as revealed to the OT prophets. A Mormon could also accept the doctrine of the nature of God; One God, three Persons. A Mormon could also accept what the Bible reveals about the nature of man (dead in sin) and salvation (saved by grace apart from works).
    A Mormon doesn’t have to even accept the BoM as an actual history, but merely a book that testifies to Jesus. A Mormon wouldn’t have to wear the sacred undergarment with the occult symbols either.
    Just remember to pay your tithes and LDS Inc. can look past a lot.
    So what’s the big deal?

  3. falcon says:

    I’m really wondering what the Deseret News’ problem is?
    It sounds like the pastor at the church Michelle Bachmann attends laid out the differences between orthodox Christian beliefs and those of Mormonism. I guess this means that the pastor of the church was attacking Mormonism, right? It appears that is what is considered unacceptable; to point out the differences in between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.
    I can see we’re headed back to that old Mormon complaint that this pastor got it all wrong about Mormonism. It’s really a sham of a complaint since the expressed doctrine of the Mormon religion is available for anyone to see.
    Here’s the problem. Mormons don’t like what they believe exposed and discussed. So the point of the Deseret Article would be what? That if someone exposes the history and beliefs of the Mormon church they are attacking the Mormon church? I’ve never seen a bunch of people who are so opposed to people having a discussion about their religion.
    Mormons seem to get all cranky if someone says that Mormons believe their are many gods, that their god was a man who became a god and that Mormon men are on the glide path to becoming gods themselves. They don’t like people talking about mother god and father god procreating spirit children who will eventually have the opportunity to be born of human parents and get themselves on the path to personal deification.
    This alone is enough to set Mormons off. A person doesn’t even have to talk about Joseph Smith’s excellent adventures with his magic rock!

  4. Rick B says:

    You know, If anyone has the abilty to contact these pastors of these Churchs they should and tell the pastors, since the LDS church goes public and accuses them of getting the facts wrong about what LDS teach, then these pastors should go public and claim, We can show you where your prophets said everything we are claiming, so you show us from your teaching what we saying is wrong. You simply cannot. I simply would not let the LDS church sit and tell me what I am saying is wrong if I can back it up with statements from their leaders. I would publicly expouse them.

    My Pastor was speaking with some so called Christian pastors that were backing the Mormon running for presdient and the whole issue of we dont know what were talking about came up, He sent me an email, asked for evidence and facts of the LDS church teaching and saying these things, so I put a list with sources together for him and sent them off, after he sent them on to these pastors, they stopped talking to him. Like it or not unless you can come forward and show us we are wrong, and you cannot, it is a lie and very hyprocital for the LDS church to state in public Christians are getting it wrong. Yes maybe some do here and their, But when we can site soures and prove your church taught Adam God, Blood Atonment, Blacks being marked with a curse. Maybe you dont believe your church meant what they said, but they did say it, that cannot be denied.

  5. Brian says:

    “For centuries men have been blinded by the false teaching of ‘belief alone sufficient’; and today there is manifest on every hand the sorry plight into which this and other perverse doctrines have thrown the pseudo-Christian sects.”

    In other words, he who believes has everlasting life? I wonder if David McKay is puzzled about why people would believe something like this. According to him, this is a teaching which is perverse.

    He who believes has everlasting life? Who said that? Why, these are the words of Jesus Christ (John 6:47). If these are perverse words to him, it is not “pseudo-Christian sects” he stands against. It is Jesus Christ he stands against.

  6. falcon says:

    rick,
    This is all about the Mormon church wanting to go mainstream and pastors of certain denominations not really wanting to confront (them) with the basic beliefs and history of the LDS church. We’re in a get-a-long by going-along mind set now days. What ever happened to giving a defense of the Christian faith? It’s all apart of the “I’m OK, you’re OK” mentality.
    Occasionally I’ll watch, “Billy Graham Classics”. If you go back to the era of the 1950s and early 1960s and watch Billy preach the first conclusion you come to is that you couldn’t get away with that today. In-other-words, Billy comes on strong and actually confronts and convicts people of sin and does it in a very strong manner. When they scan the audience, you see people wearing their best clothes and paying attention.
    We’re in a different world now and that’s why Mormonism is the camel’s nose under the tent of the Christian faith. What does the Bible say about certain men sneaking in (to the Body) unnoticed?
    I remember Bill McKeever saying that he misses the old days with guys like Bruce McConkie because they were Mormons who didn’t try to hide what they believed. He just said it unapologetic ally. Now Mormons get all fussy, heart feelings and filled with angst when someone points out correctly what Mormonism believes and teaches.

  7. Brian says:

    Thanks for this fine article, Sharon. The quotations you’ve featured are heartbreaking. In the Scriptures, we are warned to trust not in an arm of flesh. What is a man (glorified or otherwise), but an arm of flesh?

    Christianity is often said to be not a religion, but a relationship. A relationship with God. I sometimes read Morning by Morning, a devotional series by Charles Spurgeon. This morning’s was just amazing, and I would like to share a portion of it, in hopes that those who may not know God’s love might glimpse it in these words:

    Morning by Morning for September 12

    “God is jealous.” {#Na 1:2}

    Your Lord is very jealous of your love, O believer. Did he choose you? He cannot bear that you should choose another. Did he buy you with his own blood? He cannot endure that you should think that you are your own, or that you belong to this world. He loved you with such a love that he would not stop in heaven without you; he would sooner die than you should perish, and he cannot endure that anything should stand between your heart’s love and himself. He is very jealous of your trust. He will not permit you to trust in an arm of flesh. He cannot bear that you should hew out broken cisterns, when the overflowing fountain is always free to you. When we lean upon him, he is glad, but when we transfer our dependence to another, when we rely upon our own wisdom, or the wisdom of a friend—worst of all, when we trust in any works of our own, he is displeased, and will chasten us that he may bring us to himself. He is also very jealous of our company. …

  8. Kate says:

    falcon,
    “Now Mormons get all fussy, heart feelings and filled with angst when someone points out correctly what Mormonism believes and teaches.”

    I don’t understand this either. Mormons should be shouting to the world what they believe. None of this “milk before meat” stuff. If they alone have the truth and they alone are the only way to Salvation/exaltation, then why aren’t they making sure everyone knows it? If Mormons were open and honest about the doctrines and teachings of Mormonism, these sites wouldn’t exist. I still believe that the Mormon missionarie’s first lesson should be that God was once a man. The second should be that Jesus is not God incarnate, but our spirit brother. If these honest doctrines of Mormonism were presented up front to an investigator (especially a Christian) there wouldn’t be many conversions. It’s not until they’ve had the “bait and switch” or “milk before meat” that a convert realizes they’ve been lied to.

  9. Rick B says:

    Kate,
    The answer to your question is simple and it is like this.
    The LDS do not have the love of Jesus Christ and that is why they are not honest and up front with us about what they teach or believe. Satan is the true founder of the LDS religion, He used JS and Saatn only wants to kill and destroy.

    Any LDS who claims they dis-agree with me can, but the one thing they wont reply to and have yet tried replying to no matter how many times I ask is, Where is the Love of Jesus Christ?

    I have given so many examples of the lovelessness that flows and will give more as needed if your memorys are that short or you honestly never saw what I said.

  10. helenlouissmith says:

    Obama, Mitt or Huntsman? Interesting situation, who too vote for when it could get down to only two candidates, Obama and a Mormon. Which is the lesser of two evils according to our Christian Friends.
    One who wants to tear down personal freedom, split up families, and destroy our Constitution and replace it with complete change, or the other, Uniting families forever, putting families before one self, and practicing a religion and doctrine that states the Founding Fathers were divinely inspired.

    Who would you vote for is the real question? a no vote does not give you the right to complain when thing go really bad. Just a thought.

  11. Kate says:

    Helen,
    You live in Utah and most LDS are Republicans. Are you sure you aren’t just showing your Republican preference? I don’t care who is President past or present, they all do things that some don’t agree with. I also think they don’t act alone. How do you know that what President Obama has done isn’t what George Bush started? He was handed down a Presidency complete with problems. I’m not saying that I agree with all of the decisions that have been made in the past 3 years, but then again I didn’t agree with all of the decisions that President Bush made in his 8 years of office. How do you know that Mitt or John will do any better? A politician is still a politician. Are you going to vote for Mitt or John JUST because they are Mormons?

  12. Rick B says:

    Helen,
    You really need to stop assuming who we will vote for and why, you really are clueless. First off I would vote for a mormon, and honestly hope a mormon gets in office, But not for the same reasons you do.

    No president can enter office and then simply do as he pleases, Everyone seems to think this is the case, Presidents are not like Kings where what they say is law. The presdient must have everything passed thorugh the house and senate and these people can stop things the presdient wants. Then they also cannot use their postion in office to push a religious agenda, so it really does not matter in some ways what they believe.

    Yes they can use their religious background to vote their convictions, Like they can say I am pro-life, and aganint gay marraige, Etc. So they will try and pass laws, according to their convictions. But they cannot simply say, I am a mormon, or Muslim, or JW or Hindu etc, and now that I am presdient, schools must teach what I believe, and people need to attened my type of Church, things like that they cannot do.

    Now I want a mormon in office so it will start to bring mormonism more out in the open and we christians can more openly debate it. Many Christians I know as sad as it it, refuse to talk to LDS, Or even acknoledge they exist. If a mormon gets in office that will change and I will have more chances to share with mormons. Also it will expouse the White horse Prophecy for the false teaching it really is. That is another reason I want a mormon elected.

  13. Brian says:

    Dear Helen,

    I could not vote to reelect our current president. I believe he has little regard for our country as founded, and is seeking to remake it into something void of a Christian foundation. (He has said that whatever our country once was, it is no longer a Christian nation.)

    I don’t know who will challenge him for the office of the president next year. I am sure I won’t view the challenger as perfect, but I will likely still support whoever it is, believing them to be an improvement.

  14. falcon says:

    We’ve had fourteen presidents who were Free Masons. Gerald Ford was the last. I don’t remember anything being written about him being a Free Mason or about that secret society when he was president.
    I was an eighth grader in Catholic school when John Kennedy was president. We were all proud that a Catholic had been elected president. I don’t think any of us thought that the Pope would be telling Kennedy what to do.
    Let’s face it though, people have access and influence based on association.
    I don’t know how seriously Romney or Huntsman take Mormonism.
    Helen, who is here to straighten us out on all matters Mormon, has said that individual Mormons make up their own minds regarding the Mormon prophets speak forth, past and present, via personal revelation from the Mormon god. Helen also tells us that Mormonism is a sort of buffet religion. I suppose though at this Mormon buffet you have to drink milk before they’ll let you eat the meat.
    We’ve had at least one Mormon write here on MC that he would kill or steal if ordered by the Mormon prophet. Thankfully this Mormon doesn’t have his finger on the nuclear trigger.
    I guess maybe I’d like to know if the Mittster and Jon Boy would be influenced by the Mormon prophet. If they are liberal Mormons who don’t take it all that seriously or if they are dogmatic and subject to the Mormon prophet, that would be important to know.

  15. setfree says:

    As always, terrific work, Sharon

  16. helenlouissmith says:

    Rick B. — say that to 60% of the population that did not want Obamacare, yet was rushed through against all odds of it being passed. So you don’t think a Pres. doesn’t have a huge amount of sway, even when the general public is against something, what world are you living in? :-)

    Kate, who would I vote for, anyone other then our present Jimmy Carter act alike, Obama must go or we might as well throw out the Constitution.

    Prophesied by Joseph Smith I believe: stated that the Constitution of United States would hang by a Thread and the Elders of the Church would come in to try and save it.

  17. falcon says:

    Helen,
    Man………….WOW…………….DOUBLE WOW…………..Does this mean that Mitt Romney or Jon Huntsman will ride in on the white horse and rescue our Constitution from our current political situation. It’s kind of fun to make a prophesy fit a particular political situation. Take a look at the Mormon War with Brigham Young vs. the United States of America. I have to look something up but wasn’t Joseph Smith accused of treason. I’ll look it up. I think he had himself made a general in his own army with the full uniform.
    If you’re interested, I can give you some resources so you can read what some modern day Christian prophets are saying about our current world situation. That’s where Mormons make their major mistake. They think they’re the only religion claiming modern day prophets. Check out the Jehovah Witnesses and their Watch Tower org. They’re into it too.

  18. falcon says:

    Here you go Helen.
    It’s a virtual warehouse of prophetic information for our times and this is just one such site. I’m kind of into this and also claims of supernatural manifestations. I could entertain you for hours with this sort of thing.
    Mormonism is just one in a long line of religions claiming prophesy, visions, supernatural manifestations and revelations. That’s why Helen, you have to look beyond your desire to believe something and look for hard evidence regarding the claims.

    http://www.morningstartv.com/prophetic-perspective-current-events

  19. falcon says:

    Here’s some pretty interesting information.

    Understanding Prophecies for Our Time
    Saint Augustine said that we must pray as though everything depends on God and work as though everything depends on us. Thus, in addition to prayer, each of us has an obligation to act. Before one can take the appropriate action, however, one must be informed – about the Faith and about the prophecies God sends to guide us. St. Thomas tells us that God sends prophets to every generation, not to give us new doctrine, but to remind us what we must do to save our souls. The prophets can even serve to remind us what the Church’s leaders may be overlooking or forgetting.
    Saint Paul tells us: “Extinguish not the spirit. Despise not prophecies. But prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thes. 5:19-21).
    God sends prophets to set a straying world back on the right path, and we must not despise the prophecy that God has sent to us through His prophets.
    Our Lady of Fatima gave us prophecies for our time: prophecies that are being fulfilled before our very eyes. For example, Our Lady predicted that if people did not amend their lives, a terrible war would begin during the reign of Pius XI………Yet neither did people amend their lives, nor was the Consecration done and WWII and the series of wars that followed it have resulted. And more wars follow now and into the future all because we ignore Our Lady of Fatima’s requests.

    So the real point of this is that these wars could all be prevented, the revelation says, by the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. OK, figure that out. This is how these wars, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War etc., could have been avoided. Now who can prove otherwise?

  20. Rick B says:

    Helen, do you purposly not read what I write, or anyone for that matter, then try wasting our time. I already told you, yes their are people that side with the presdient and what he wants, he simply cannot vote with out having others agree with him. If he was the sole person he either would be called a king, or her would not be elected. So yes he could shove something through, I never said he could not. It’s just harder than you think. He cannot just start passing all kinds of laws and doing what he wants, that is what you seem to have impled.

  21. helenlouissmith says:

    Finally a Mormon sentiment: “Saint Augustine said that we must pray as though everything depends on God and work as though everything depends on us. Thus, in addition to prayer, each of us has an obligation to act. ”

    Book of Mormon, must pray to know if its true and have Faith enough to depend on God for a answer, and the last is to put forth effort (work) and actually read it cover to cover. :-)

    Thanks Falcon, you finally understanding who God is and how He operates.

  22. helenlouissmith says:

    Another Falconism,

    “That’s why Helen, you have to look beyond your desire to believe something and look for hard evidence regarding the claims.”

    Falcon, your God is the God of evidence, my God is the God of Faith.

  23. helenlouissmith says:

    “Helen,
    Man………….WOW…………….DOUBLE WOW…………..Does this mean that Mitt Romney or Jon Huntsman will ride in on the white horse and rescue our Constitution from our current political situation. It’s kind of fun to make a prophesy fit a particular political situation. ”

    Of course not silly, Its kind of like me copying your posting style. :-) Lets see, does this ring a bell?

    What does the Bible say about certain men sneaking in (to the Body) unnoticed?

    That’s why Mormonismis the camel’s nose under the tent of the Christian faith.

    So Falcon does this really meant it’s Mormons,

    Context

    Jude 1 (all about Mormons) ;-)
    4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

  24. falcon says:

    See here’s the deal about prophesy and how it relates to current events. It’s easy to interpret events as having fulfilled a prophesy. In-other-words it’s more in the mind of the believer who, in a sense, is creating his/her own reality.
    As I’ve explained in the past, I’ve spent enough time around people who are always trying to connect the dots and see the hand of God or a move of God either in their personal life or in a larger social context. A true believer can make nearly anything “work” with enough desire and a small amount of creativity. It’s religious entertainment.
    So we have here our friend Helen making some sort of vague reference to a prophesy supposedly made by Joseph Smith regarding a Constitutional crisis and how the LDS boys will rescue it. First of all I don’t know how Helen even knows Smith made this prophesy since she often takes the fall-back position that she wasn’t there when these prophets spoke so doesn’t know if (the prophet) actually said it.
    This revelation and prophesy claim can be an awfully messy business.
    We’ve seen the JWs proclaiming the end of the world several times and when called on it will say “we have more light now”. They don’t even stop to consider that the prophesy was wrong and therefore their religious leaders false prophets.
    People who spiritualize everything really don’t like it when people ask them for evidence to support their claims. Actually they get all puffed-up supposing that they are more spiritual then those folks who insist on solid methodology for interpreting the Word of God and evaluating events in light of some prophesy or claim of the supernatural.
    They take the Biblical admonition to “walk by faith not by sight” to an extreme.

  25. gpark says:

    I’m not sure it’s going to matter much who one wants as the next US President if Christians in the US don’t fall on their knees and pray that Obama, operating on behalf of our nation, does not desert Israel in the upcoming UN meeting (end of September, 2011) – http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html?pagewanted=all. Please see Joel 3:1-2. We are not to “divide up God’s land.” History has not shown good things for nations who do so!
    Joel 3
    1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
    When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
    2 I will also gather all nations,
    And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
    And I will enter into judgment with them there
    On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
    Whom they have scattered among the nations;
    They have also divided up My land.

  26. helenlouissmith says:

    Falcon and his lack of understanding my musing, :-)

    “I don’t know how Helen even knows Smith made this prophesy since she often takes the fall-back position that she wasn’t there when these prophets spoke so doesn’t know if (the prophet) actually said it.”

    Did I or did I not give a little tiny, tiny disclaimer? Yep, re- read it and there it was, bingo,

    “Prophesied by Joseph Smith I believe”.

    I have no idea if he made it, how it got invented, if it is true or not. But for sure the days ahead sure seem to be playing into this scenario, our divinely inspired Constitution is in jeopardy.

    Those who wish to look the other way, those who wish to deny are those who probably won’t even vote this coming election since many feel that God will save us.

    Kind of like many of our christian believers, yea I read the bible, well some of it, maybe just a little of the NT, but hey, it’s Gods word. How do I know? awe gee, all the evidence points to it being true.
    I don’t have the time to read it, or the Book of Mormon, I leave that to my Holy Discernment.

  27. grindael says:

    Mormon “prophets” have been doomsdaying it since the beginning. This is nothing new. Joe Smith claimed that the U.S. Government would be destroyed if they didn’t redress the Missouri problems that Joe himself got them into. False prophecy. Young used statements by Joe to ratchet up the fear, and men like Heber C. Kimball even said that the North would lose the war to the South. Woodruff said that Joe told him that if anyone lived to see 1860, they would witness the downfall of the U.S. Government.

    This generalized fear mongering has never amounted to anything, and like our Mormon poster above, who states that “the days ahead sure seem to be playing into this scenario, our divinely inspired Constitution is in jeopardy,” only show anyone can make generalized statements, but Joe’s specific prophecies all failed miserably, but that doesn’t stop the flow of fear:

    “You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance” (J.R. Clark, Conference Report, October 1942, p.58).

    It was never “in the balance” then, for the U.S. handily trounced the world that rose up against freedom, and continues to do so (as that modern ‘prophet’ failed to see). The current Administration has done nothing different in this regard, for all the Bush regulations and policies in regard to National Security are still in place.

    Are the citizens of the U.S. ready for a Mormon in the White House? Time will tell. But they carry a lot of baggage, and Mormon false prophecy is just one piece of it._johnny

  28. helenlouissmith says:

    “only show anyone can make generalized statements”

    Such as, Joseph Smith made a claim that men lived on the moon, yet there is not facts showing any evidence he put that down in writing, but then again, we have the story of a man 50 plus years later to tells this story and forgets it was his own father that gave him his blessing and not the Father of Joseph Smith.

    “In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”

    Oliver Huntington also says that he received a blessing from Joseph Smith Sr. which said that he would go on a mission to preach to the inhabitants of the moon. The blessing record indicates clearly that it was his father that gave him the blessing and not Joseph Smith Sr., although Joseph Smith Sr. presided at the meeting. This type of blessing would not be unusual considering the public opinion of the time.

  29. grindael says:

    What is your point Helen? Both Brigham Young and Hyrum Smith taught FROM THE STAND that the Moon was inhabited. They obviously got this from Smith. Joe did not need to put it down in writing, for OTHER (claimed) PROPHET’S said it, and they did so in Conference Addresses to the Church. As for Huntington and his blessing, this doesn’t DISPROVE that the doctrine came from Smith, it SUPPORTS it.

    If Church Patriarchs are just giving ‘opinions’ and ‘speculation’ during their blessings, than why call, and ordain them by the power of the ‘priesthood’ to give them at all? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    You are then saying that God’s hand is NOT in the Church and that these men are NOT guided by the Holy Spirit at all, they just blabber on in these ‘blessings’ the speculation and hearsay that they pick up from what is popular in the world at the time! Wow! Thank you very much for confirming what we have been saying here on Coffee for so long! Why get a Patriarchal blessing in the first place then, just to hear made-up speculation? Is the lineage that they “reveal” then subject to scrutiny too, as mere ‘speculation’ based on their current world-view? You simply can’t have it both ways.

    You can find the FACTS of Mormons and Moonmen here: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=221406571208100 I advise you to read up, so you can get the facts straight. _johnny

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