In January 2008 radio host Krista Tippett (Speaking of Faith on American Public Media) interviewed LDS scholar Robert Millet. Her stated goal for the interview was to gain a sense of Mormonism, both theologically and spiritually. Throughout the course of the interview, many interesting topics were discussed.
About 25 minutes into the interview, following a statement by Ms. Tippett about how the Mormon tradition views Jesus (Jehovah of the Old Testament, exalted as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), Dr. Millet told the story of being in a meeting with 20 evangelical pastors who had been invited to “ask whatever questions they wanted to ask” about the Mormon faith. One of the questions asked of an unnamed LDS apostle in attendance was whether Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. After admitting that yes, Jesus and Lucifer were in the pre-existence together, the LDS apostle clarified:
“But let me be straight forward on this. Jesus was God, and there was never a time when He and Lucifer were on the same plane.”
While this answer might alleviate some concern from evangelicals who shudder over the idea that Jesus and Lucifer are both–in the same sense–sons of God, I don’t see the apostle’s answer supported in other LDS teachings.
To begin with, Mormonism teaches that all spirits born to Heavenly Father were first eternal entities “co-equal” (co-eternal) with God:
“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).
“The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself…” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 353).
“Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father” (Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5).
Jesus and Lucifer both began as these co-equal intelligences. They were on the same plane at least at this early point in LDS cosmology.
Next, all of Heavenly Father’s spirit children were born in the pre-existence with equal attributes:
“Every spirit that comes to this earth to take upon it a tabernacle is a son or a daughter of God and possesses all the intelligence and all the attributes that any son or daughter can enjoy, either in the spirit world or in this world, except that in the spirit, and separated from the body, they lacked just the tabernacle of being like God the Father” (Joseph F. Smith, Young Women’s Journal, 6:371-372).
The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual says, “There are varying degrees of intelligence among Heavenly Father’s children,” but then goes on to indicate that the differences are not inherent; rather, they are a product of development:
“[W]e know they were all innocent in the beginning; but the right of free agency which was given to them enabled some to outstrip others, and thus, through the eons of immortal existence, to become more intelligent, more faithful, for they were free to act for themselves, to think for themselves, to receive the truth or rebel against it” (p. 37).
Indeed, the late LDS Apostle Neal A. Maxwell wrote:
“The ascendancy of Jesus Christ among all of our spirit brothers and sisters) is clearly set forth. Of Him it was said that He is ‘more intelligent than they all.'” (Quoted in The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual, Religion 327, p. 38).
This is in keeping with what Milton R. Hunter taught in General Conference when he said, “during his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood” (Conference Report, October 1949).
To say that in Mormonism “there was never a time when [Jesus] and Lucifer were on the same plane” is quite misleading. Some might entertain an explanation suggesting that by the time Lucifer was born to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother Jesus had already ascended to Godhood. If there are authoritative LDS sources that support this position I would be interested in seeing them; as of now, I’m not aware of any. In fact, everything I have read regarding this issue points to the equality of Jesus and Lucifer; other than birth order, they seem to be understood as having been peers (for example, see Gospel Principles, 1988, pp. 15-16, pp. 32-34).
In 1986 the LDS Ensign magazine included a regular column titled, “I Have a Question.” In the June issue, a question asked and answered was:
“How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?
“Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah [answers]. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel ‘who was in authority in the presence of God,’ a ‘son of the morning.’ (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
“How could two such great spirits become so totally opposite? The answer lies in the principle of agency, which has existed from all eternity. (See D&C 93:30–31.) Of Lucifer, the scripture says that because of rebellion ‘he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies.’ (Moses 4:4.) Note that he was not created evil, but became Satan by his own choice” (Ensign, June 1986, 25–26).
So it appears that, according to the documented teachings of Mormonism, Jesus and Lucifer started out together – on the same plane, if you will – but due to choices they made in the pre-existence their paths split. One became a god; the other became Satan.
But I suppose this answer would not have had gone over very well in a meeting with 20 evangelical pastors.
Interesting…in the first quote he says “Jesus WAS God”. He did not say Jesus was A God or Like God. That sounds more like the Trinitarian view that says they, along with the Holy Spirit, are one in the same. It also goes against the Mormon doctrine that in order to be exalted and become a god, you have to have been born and received a body. Following that line of thinking, Jesus could not have become a God until he claimed his body here on earth. Now, he must have some elevated status before being born because we only hear about how God listened to Christ’s and Lucifer’s plan. It was only after God chose Jesus’ plan that Lucifer rebelled and was cast out. I recall being taught that his higher status is due to him being the “first born in the spirit”.
This brings us an inconsistency in their teaching which is nothing new. If Jesus WAS God, then during this counsel in the pre-existence, was Jesus telling himself about his plan and did he choose his own plan over Lucifer’s? If he WAS God then the answer would be yes, unless they claim to believe in the Trinity which we all know they do not.
If you take the time to actually think about what is being taught and put it side by side, it is not hard to see that they just don’t match up. That is true with almost all Mormon doctrine. It is as if they just say what will appease the crowd without any regard to doctrinal consistency.
Boy I hope I am making sense because it all sounds good in my head.
Sometimes on this site I feel like you just aren’t hitting the nail on the head, that you are unaware of nuances that go into Mormon beliefs. But here I think you are quite accurate. That Lucifer and Jesus are brothers is what we are taught, and I think that most LDS would be somewhat discomfited by hearing the statement of the above unnamed Apostle that there never was a time when they were on the same plane.
Sharon, I understand your point, but this is what Millet is explaining:
Lucifer was not Lucifer prior to his birth as a spirit. Jehovah was not Jehovah prior to his Spirit Birth.
Jehovah was the FIRST BORN, the birthright child, destined to be the eternal savior. He lived up to his birthright through obedience to eternal law.
Therefore, as the First Born spirit child, and having the spirit birthright, He NEVER was on the same plan as the “son of the morning,” Lucifer. As spirits, they were never on the same plane.
Were they on the same plane PRIOR to their birth as spirits? Were they on the same plane as intelligences? They weren’t even spirits yet, and we just don’t know much about life prior to spirit birth. Again, here are critics telling Mormons what Mormons believe. Thanks, but no thanks.
I don’t think Sharon is telling Mormons what Mormons believe, iamse7en, she is looking at Mormon teaching on the nature of Jesus and Satan and trying to sort it out. If you have an argument against her conclusions, you should make it – not just imply that she should not discuss it. If, according to Mormon theology, Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers, just as I am my brothers earthly brother, then they were on the same “plane.” Even though my brother is the first born, that does not mean his existence is somehow above mine? We’re still by nature equals even if his familial rights as a first born were greater than mine.
Another question would be is everyone on the same “plane” as Jesus according to Mormon theology. If not, why not – if we can become gods just as he did by following eternal law? It seems that Mormon theology puts all of mankind on the same “plane” with the divine, as we can can all become “gods.”
I will insist that there is sufficient Biblical evidence to extend the limited view that mainstream Christians hold on the identity of Christ and Satan.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
They were both obviously in heaven at one point.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Once again, evidence that Satan was in heaven at one point.
Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Are these “unclean spirits” not the same angels that were cast out of heaven with Satan. How is it that they recognized Jesus on the earth?
Cluff,
I’m confused at the point you are trying to get at. Are you thinking Christians don’t believe that Satan was once in Heaven?
I don’t know what brand of Christianity would deny that. The scriptures you point out are correct, that Satan was once an Angel in heaven.
Thats not the issue here though, of course. It is whether or not Satan was the spirit brother of Jesus Christ or not.
To extend Cluff’s argument further, if both Jesus and Satan were once in heaven, who/what created Satan? He obviously is a person. He was once in heaven, who is now in earth tempting other men.
GRCluff,
Your arguments have nothing to do with disproving a “limited view” of Christianity. As a Christian I know that all angels were once with God – we believe that the demons and Satan are fallen angels, just as the scriptures you cite attest. We do not believe angels are spirit children of a heavenly father & mother – that’s a Mormon belief that cannot be found in scripture. The Mormon belief system effectively eliminates angels – making angels to be either pre-incarnate man or post-incarnate man (such as Moroni). As a Christian, I believe in a separate type of being known as angels. There is no indication from the scriptures that individual human beings once were, or will be, angels. Scriptures indicate that man is currently a little lower than the angels. I am not sure what view of angels you are arguing against – I don’t know any Christian theology that says demons or Satan were always evil – that would be dualism, which is a distinctly non-Christian belief.
The “angels” referenced in Rev 12:7 are obviously the same entities as the “unclean spirits” referenced in Mark 5:8. My evidence on that issue is the fact that they recognized Christ as Son of God. They had to be with him in the beginning. If they were with Christ in the beginning, and only Angels were (according to your argument) then why did Christ use the words “unclean spirits”? Christ clearly understood that spirits and angels are one in the same.
Another verse can be used to make the same point:
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who were the sons of God who shouted for Joy when the world was created? Aren’t we described as offspring, even children of God many times in the NT?
Satan has been called a morning star. Not an uncommon reference in the Bible.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
GRCluff,
If you and other LDS believe Jesus was at one time an angel, then how do you handle this verse.
We do not know much about the pre-mortal existance nor about the process involved with creating spirits from intelligence. So we do not know if spirit ‘babies/infants’ are like the human ones we have on earth or if they are more developed and functional. We also know nothing at all about what this ‘intelligence’ is that is organised to create our spirits.
That being said lets look at this earthly perspective. It is said that we all are created/born equal, this is not entirely true, except for maybe identical twins, not sure on that. We are all born weak, dependent and knowing next to nothing, but some are born with birth defects, some are born with more brain neurons than others, some are born with fast-twitch muscles, others slow-twitch or more muscle mass. Some are born into families that have a strict heirarchial system where the first born has all the dues and royalties bound to them and are treated that way while the subsequent children are more or less ignored in that respect. There are many things that indicate that we are not all born the same including siblings, and thus we are not all on the same plane at all – the differences just may not show up until later in life – like the difference between muscle-type/mass will not show up until the person starts some sort of sport.
So I see no problem with the statement that they, Jesus and Lucifer, were never on the same plane, but I can also see the confusion as to why some would think the statements above are conflicting. We are trying to understand an eternal principle that we have no real knowledge about by using our limited mortal thinking/experiences. It does not work very well. Suffice to say that Jesus, Lucifer and all of us, according to LDS doctrine, are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father and as such we are siblings. We all made various decisions to get us to where we are today and sadly, as with all families, there were a few black sheep.
Every good student of the Bible knows angels are beings created by God. The Bible tells us that Lucifer was one of these angels. Lucifer fell because he wanted the glory that was reserved for Jesus, not because his plan of salvation was rejected as taught by Mormons. The bible teaches Jesus is God and Satan (Lucifer) is an angel…very different!
We are called children of God through out the New Testament but, the Christian (correct) view is that we are adopted into the family of God through faith and not by some celestial act of mating as is taught by LDS.
In Primary they teach that all spirits ever to be born on earth all existed together with God (the pre-existance). They teach that our brothers Jesus and Lucifer were there and we all lived happily. This is taught to every Mormon child as young as 5 years old. There’s even a song sung in Primary about it:
“I lived in Heaven a long time ago, it is true /Lived there and loved there with people I know, so did you. /Then Heavenly Father presented a beautiful plan /All about Earth and eternal salvation for man. //Father said he needed someone who had enough love /To give his life so we all could return there above. /There was another who sought for the honor divine. /Jesus said, ‘Father, send me, and the glory be thine.'”
God chose Jesus’ plan which angered Lucifer. One-third of the spirits in the pre-existance (aka Hosts of Heaven) sided with Lucifer against Jesus and the rest,and a great war was fought whereafter Lucifer and those who sided with him were cast out of heaven.
I think that makes it pretty clear that the Mormon church teaches Jesus and Lucifer existed in Heaven together -so how could they not be on the same plane???
iamse7en asked, “if both Jesus and Satan were once in heaven, who/what created Satan?” Easy, the answer is God. God is made up of the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. God spoke the universe into being, created the stars and the angels -which is what is being referred to in Job 38:7 as “sons of God”
I will have to continue this in my next post…
It is very clear from Scripture that Jesus and Lucifer were in heaven together. In the book of Job we see that Satan still has access into heaven (Job 1:6-12, 2:1-7) where he accuses the saints before God (and will continue to do so ‘day and night’ according to Rev. 12:10) until he is cast out of heaven for good and into the ‘lake of fire and brimstone’ where he shall be ‘tormented day and night for ever and ever’ (Rev. 20:10).
The issue at hand is whether Jesus and Satan were originally created as equals – According to John 1:1-3 we see that Jesus is God and “All things” were made by Him and “without Him was not any thing made that was made” – wouldn’t ALL things include the angels? The Hebrews 1 quote was already cited above – but it is very clear from this passage that Jesus was made ‘so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they’ and that it was by Him that God made the worlds (Hebrews 1:2). In Revelation 1 and 22 we see that Jesus is “the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” (see Rev. 1:8, 17-18, and 22:12-16).
cont’d
So okay, let’s take out the whole Mormon pre-existance thing and look at it from the Biblical Christian viewpoint. “Jesus was God, and there was never a time when He and Lucifer were on the same plane.” Well, that statement is also false because Jesus IS God and God created the angels -Lucifer is a fallen angel- and Job 38:7 states that the morning stars and sons of God were there when God laid the foundation of the earth.
Now, if we use the Mormon eisegesis of “sons of God” meaning all the spirit children, of which Lucifer is our brother along with Jesus, then weren’t both there when God laid the foundation?
Ralph, I don’t think Thomas Jefferson’s assertion that “all men are created equal” meant we are all carbon copies of each other. After all, his assertion didn’t extend to African slaves. Your entire argument on that point is out of context and has nothing to do with being on any plane. And once again, an apostle has left his statement open to interpretation (it seems as though the non-mo’s are reading plane to mean “plane of existence” and Mormons are reading it as some other type of plane) which only the HS of Mormonism (or a wink and a nod at Gen Conf) can clarify for us.
Andrea, if I may also add….
What the Bible says about Jesus,
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Psalms 148… 2Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. And 5Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created
Colossians 1: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
From reading some of these comments I guess one thing needs to be clarified – although some people teach that Heavenly Father chose Jesus’ plan, it was in reality, and this is doctrine, God’s plan that Jesus chose. We teach that Heavenly Father called us together in a conference in which He outlined this earth and His plan for us to come and live on it. He asked for someone to help with the plan by being a mediator to bring us back to live with Him. Jesus volunteered and said that He would do the job and all glory will go to the Father as it was His plan, not Jesus’. Lucifer, on the other hand, said he would go and make us all do the right thing and get everyone back to live with Heavenly Father – but he wanted all of the glory as it was his idea and doing. So Heavenly Father chose Jesus to fulfil His plan, He did not chose Jesus’ plan. In doing so, Lucifer rebelled even more and tried to force the issue getting him kicked out of heaven. But if you read the song Andrea wrote out it says all this – “Then Heavenly Father presented a beautiful plan, All about Earth and eternal salvation for man. Father said he needed someone who had enough love To give his life so we all could return there above. There was another who sought for the honor divine. Jesus said, ‘Father, send me, and the glory be thine.'”
So yes, some teach that it was Jesus’ plan, but the true doctrine is that it was Heavenly Father’s plan and Jesus chose to follow it while Lucifer chose a different tact.
As far as us being the children of God, we have given Biblical verses supporting our idology – we just have differing interpretations of these scriptures. So you cannot say ours is not Biblical, just that it differs from your interpretation of the Bible.
Cluff: explain yourself please: are we to understand that Jesus and Satan are of the same ‘rank’ or ‘level’ because they both came from heaven?? Is that all you’ve got, or is there another argument carefully hidden in your posts? It’s been over a day since my last ‘spoon feeding’ and Germit is hungwee. While waiting for my real food, I’ve made due with Col 1:16-18 from Kenneth Wuest (it’s like the Amplified NT) “..(the Son) has priority to and sovereignty over all creation, because in him were created all things IN THE HEAVENS and upon the earth (oooops, we just lost sibling status….) the visible things and the invisible ones (just in case you missed it first time around), whether they are thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities. All things through Him as intermediate agent and with a view to Him stand created. And He Himself antedates all things, and all things in Him cohere….He is the originator[i.e. the creator], the firstborn out from among the dead, in order that He might become in all things Himself the One who is pre-eminent… I’m not the smartest guy on my street, but this looks a LOT like a very different kind of ‘something’ than Lucifer is, OR EVER WAS. This looks like JS stirred to theology pot while using something pungent for kindling. Sure looks like he inhaled. More later: Germit
Again, this discussion only reinforces the fact that Nephi, did in reality, see how much the world would stumble because of the plain and precious truth removed from the book of the Lamb.
I don’t mean this to sound trite, but we Christians are not the ones stumbling on who Jesus and God is and how Lucifer is related. It is the Mormons who are being contradictory.
DOF: welcome back, not that you were gone that long. Hang onto the ‘plain and precious truths removed’ get out of apologetic jail free card, you are likely to need it as JS had a habit of ‘revelatin’ first, and asking biblical questions later, if at all. What a convenient excuse to fall back on when faced with an obvious biblical truth, as in Jesus and Lucifer being two distinct KINDS of persons. Let the reader remind him/herself, that most major cults do exactly this: create a specious ‘biblical void’ where truths have been taken away, and then they fill them in with novel revelation. The LDS have a LOT of company in that tactic, it is centuries old. The Father of Lies is not compelled to think up a new tactic, if the old one is still effective. The weirdest part is the lDS ability to keep a facade of ‘trusting in the Bible’. Right. Like I trust campaign promises. Germit PS to iam7: after reading Col 1, are you still in the dark as to who created Satan?
DoF said: “Again, this discussion only reinforces the fact that Nephi, did in reality, see how much the world would stumble because of the plain and precious truth removed from the book of the Lamb.”
Actually, all of the discussions on this site demonstrate to me the confusion that prevails when man adds to God’s Word. “The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever” (Psalm 12:6-7).
The historical and archaeological records (not to mention fulfilled prophecy!) provide ample supporting evidence that God has kept this promise and we can trust that “the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8). (Just check Wikipedia to compare supporting archeology and history for the Bible in stark contrast with the lack thereof for the Book of Mormon – where’s the supporting evidence that Nephi ever even existed?!).
There is no need for “restoration” of God’s Word because it was never lost or corrupted and is still available – preserved according to His promise. If the BoM IS true, there should be SOME evidence somewhere surely? Besides the feelings of those who submit to the spirit of this book in accordance with the spiritual rules associated with it (i.e. the feelings test)? Those who test this book according to the litmus test in Scripture (Acts 17:11 – i.e. comparing Scripture with Scripture), have found that it fails the test. “believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world…” (I John 4:1)
“It is the Mormons who are being contradictory.”
Please. (rolling my eyes)
Sharon Lindbloom quotes a BYU professor who is paraphrasing what the LDS apostle said or quoting it from memory. We don’t have the context of the exact question or any more of the apostle’s answer including the explanation before or after this statement. To create the illusion of a huge contradiction of a gospel principle is trivial at best and absurd at worse.
The LDS church is very open with its doctrine and I hardly think an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ is afraid of 20 (OOOO, soo scary many!!)evangelical pastors.
The LDS Bible Dictionary is a great source for official church doctrine. Under “Devil” it states, “The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time ‘an angel’ in authority in the presence of God; however he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ)….Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths. Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings.” (see unclean spirits as mentioned by GRC)
There you have it. That’s LDS doctrine. It’s right on the internet for all to read. If you’re going to argue against THAT, go ahead. But PLEASE quit pretending there’s some great rift in the LDS church based on an out of context statement from an “unnamed apostle.”
To all: “Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings..” JS certainly had a thing about ‘gaining a body’ as a big step upward. It’s kind like the ancient heresies in reverse: some of the old heresies had Christ only in the appearance of a body, because the Greek idea was that a body was just a lousy container to the soul. JS goes the reverse, and has the Heavenly Father, and I suppose all the gods out there once having a body, and the angels pining away for one. The bible, of course, knows nothing of that: yes people are beset with spirits, but it’s not the body the devil is after, it’s SOMEONE WHO BELONGS, OR COULD BELONG, TO GOD. It’s a ‘turf war’ so to speak, a war of Kingdoms, show me the scriptural support for the devil wanting a body or wishing he had one. As for the LDS being ‘open’ about their doctrine, I’d say “in their own sweet time, and at amounts of honesty they deem appropriate”. Winning converts seem to be the big deal, telling them the ins and outs of the faith seem to come later, sometimes MUCH later. With their push to APPEAR more mainstream, expect that subterfuge to continue. GERMIT
Jessica,
Nice to have some friendly dialogue. Thanks.
I appreciate the quote from Psalms. However, if I follow that line of thinking then why the need for ANY scripture following David? If the word was pure and the Lord would preserve it forever, why anything else? Or if Isaiah says the word will stand forever, why does he feel the need to prophecy? Even if we accept his words, why include any of the other OT prophets after him? Isn’t that adding to the word? Wouldn’t that just create more confusion?
The principle is this. “Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” Prophets record the Word of the Lord because they are commanded to.
I am glad that archaelogy and history are beginning to validate Biblical records. I will remind you there are many apparent “discrepancies” in the record that the world is more than happy to point out. Time will vindicate the prophets, biblical and modern. Although my ancestors in generations past did not have our current archaelogical knowledge, they still knew that the Bible was true. They did not base their belief on external, but rather internal evidences that the book was true. The evidence that the book is true comes from within the pages of the book itself as well as the lives of those who have been given that testimony. How do I know the Bible is true? I can see the fruits of it in the lives of my Christian neighbors.
As far as the “litmus test”. It is easy for us to forget that, in all the annals of history, we are really the only generation of people ever to have immediate and universal access to the scriptures. A huge blessing! However, it would be an unjust God, in my opinion, to ask His children to determine truth by the use of tools that they do not have. In reality, He has prepared a better way. The pattern He has followed is sending His chosen representatives (Apostles and Prophets) to preach His Word and then the Holy Ghost confirms that what they have said is true…
Jessica (cont.)
The “litmus test” described in Acts was never recommended an “ultimate test” by any Biblical prophet. If it were “the test”, why wouldn’t all the prophets have used it? Or at least just one of them? If I were living in the day of Peter I would have to pass on his invitation to repent and be baptized until I could apply the test. Peter does not say, compare what I am saying to the OT prophets, because he is a prophet. He does not need to appeal to their authority because he is the living authority.
In “trying spirits”, 1 John 4 gives the answer in verse 2. It does not give an plea to compare with the scriptures, but whether or not the person is saying that Christ came in the flesh.
Germit:
What Biblical prophet did not believe in revelation first? Based on your premise, I do not see how you can accept any of the prophets. How do you deal with Moses and the Midianites? Wouldn’t an honest observer say, “Wait a minute, first Moses says thou shalt not kill (as a command from God) and then in the next breath command that he destroy the Middianites”. Wasn’t the law an “Obvious Biblical truth”? How about Abraham in the command to sacrifice Isaac? Wouldn’t Abraham question the source of his command when it flies in the face of what was laid down in the scriptures prior to him? The only thing that makes any sense is that The Word of God, now, as it comes from the lips of the Law giver Himself, trumps everything else.
Again, it all comes back to the BoM. If it is true, then Nephi’s prophecy about “plain and precious things” IS causing many to stumble. It is not an excuse. It is a declaration! Nephi saw it, and our discussion was part of the vision. If you believe the story of Moses and Abraham then you believe Revelation reigns supreme, even if it blantantly contradicts previous commandments. The BoM is so simple and clear that those who really believe the Bible will recognize the BoM as more of the same.
DOF, This post is not about the Book of Mormon. Please refrain from hijacking the thread and get back to the topic at hand.
Susan wrote:
If an illusion of a contradiction in an LDS gospel principle was created, Robert Millet created it as he related his eyewitness account of the apostle’s words on a public radio program. As for context, if the quote is out of context, again, it was used that way by Robert Millet on a public radio program (please go listen for yourself via the link provided in the post).
I don’t think an LDS apostle would be afraid of twenty evangelical pastors, but I do think LDS apostles are afraid of negative public perceptions. And this is more to the point of what I was getting at in the post. The LDS apostle — and subsequently Robert Millet — from all appearances made a misleading public declaration about LDS doctrine that somewhat reduced the controversy regarding Jesus and Lucifer being brothers.
Susan, it’s my turn to roll my eyes. “Sharon Lindbloom quotes a BYU professor who is paraphrasing what the LDS apostle said or quoting it from memory. We don’t have the context of the exact question or any more of the apostle’s answer including the explanation before or after this statement. To create the illusion of a huge contradiction of a gospel principle is trivial at best and absurd at worse.”
From the transcript of the show Sharon was talking about:
*Mr. Millet: Krista, I was in a meeting, oh, maybe a year ago with one of the Mormon apostles, present-day leaders of the church, and with a group of about 20 Evangelical pastors. One of the questions that came up — interestingly enough, this will have very recent application — one of the heads of Calvary Chapel said, “Now, elder so-and-so, isn’t it true that you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?” And I was very…
*Ms. Tippett: The remark that Mike Huckabee made recently about it.
*Mr. Millet: That’s right. That was Mike Huckabee’s remark the other day. And he said this. He said, “Well, it is true. You need to understand we believe that before we were born, we all, not just Jesus, but that we all lived in a premortal existence. And yes, Jesus and Lucifer,” he said, “were in that world together.” But let me be straightforward on this. Jesus was God, and there was never a time when He and Lucifer were on the same plane.
So “they were in that world together” but they were “never…on the same plane” — please help me understand what that means and how it’s not contradictory. And please don’t tell me that only Mr. Millet or the ‘unnamed apostle’ can explain what that means. If they’ve received some personal revelation regarding the nature of that statement then it needs to be shared with the rest of the class since it is part of Mormon doctrine.
I am not creating any illusions of contradiction here and I don’t believe Sharon is either.
DOF: very good post, and I will reply back about Moses and Abraham tonight or tomorrow. “it’s not an excuse, it’s a declaration..” well of course it is a declaration, and in fact (to repeat myself) it is remarkably similar to what MANY are saying about the bible: Eckhart Tolle, the New AGE flavor of the year says that the scriptures are hopelessly corrupted, so we need to listen to HIS truth claims, and I could name many others who go down this road, like I said, old tactic. It seems so authoratative to you because it has JS wrapped all over it, but this kind of claim has been around for literally 2,000 yrs. The similarity being that it comes from a person or group who wants to DISTINGUISH themselves from the orthodox pack, so you are going to find some of this all the way back to the early church. Granted, ET doesn’t have golden plated, but he DOES have vanity plates on his Infiniti (a very modest car for a millionaire, I must admit). About the prophets, their words and their work went together, there is no separating them. Granted, those words took hundreds of years to be collected and recognized as canon. I am sure there was debate around this, shoot, here we are STILL debating it: and within the ‘Mormon groups’, you guys have your debates about which books are in and which books are out: not much different, to me. God’s work is consistent: what the prophet speaks and has recorded agrees with ALL the HS is doing through his life, his mission and his message coincide, and coincides with the other prophets as well, OR HE IS NOT A TRUE PROPHET. This is where your ‘continuing revelation’ falls so flat, because the inconsistencies and irregularities of LDS teaching and practice make the Moses and Abraham ‘problems’ seem like small change (to my mind, at least) For an orthodox christian, ‘revelation’ and the work of the HS thru the Word work in agreement, in tandem, they are not at odds. If they are, we take a MUCH closer look at the revelation: our God doesn’t mumble
DoF,
First off, in our lasty post you accused me of only saying I am right and your Wrong, Like I said I give evidence.
Like I pointed out, Hebrews states God the father NEVER SAID to any Angel, today your my son. If lucifer and Jesus are brothers, and the Bible and BoM are clear Luicfer is an Angel then that implys Jesus was or would have been also. So this would make God a liar according to Hebrews.
Then since you mentioned the plan of salvation, the Bible and the BoM both state that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for trying to exalt himself above God, not for having a worse plan of redemption. So looks like your view of me was as flawed as your BoM. Rick b
Ralph: “Suffice it to say that Jesus, Lucifer, and all of us according to LDS doctrine are all spiritual children of our Heavenly Father, and as such, we are siblings.” Now that’s pretty straightforward: Ralph, I wish you were in charge of your church, let as many potential converts to your faith hear that statement, and I’ll do the same. You probably think this part of the gospel is attractive, I personally think that even a dull witted casual church-goer can intuitively pick up on any of the half dozen heresies hanging out in that statement. The gist of Sharon’s statement seems to be that your group is less than forthright about presenting this “eternal principle”. Looks that way from here. GERMIT
Here’s a thought.
If such is the relationship between Lucifer and Jesus, why suppose Jesus will win? Why suppose that the chain of deities won’t be broken at some point?
Sharon Lindbloom and Andrea –
Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my post. I admit that I found it quite helpful to go and read the actual transcript of Dr. Millet’s interview.
The first point I would like to make is that when asked “Isn’t it true that you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, the apostle apparently said, “Well, it IS true.” OK, so far so good. No lack of completely 100% supporting LDS church doctrine.
Second point: I realized that in reading several of these posts that the real contention comes with the apparent comment that “there was never a time when he and Lucifer were on the same plane.” (As Andrea asks: “So they were in that world together but they were never on the same plane – please help me understand what that means and how it’s not contradictory.”
OK, Andrea, here goes. Do you know what the word “plane” means? I really didn’t in this context (I mean I obviously know the kind you fly), so I consulted my handy dandy Random House Dictionary. Here is the 4th definition of plane: “a level of dignity, character, existence, development, or the like; as in a high moral plane”
It is TOTALLY consistent with Mormon doctrine to say that Jesus and Lucifer were NEVER at the same level of righteousnes, virtue, or obedience to God the Father, etc. Hence the casting out of Lucifer from the presence of God which all the aforementioned scripture attest to. Certainly, being related and in the same world as someone else doesn’t guarantee they’re on the same “plane” as defined above.
As I stated before. Please quit trying to act like there’s some great doctrine rift here. There isn’t. And examining the text more closely made that even MORE clear.
P.S. Sharon, the picture of the girl at the top of Mormon Coffee is so unbelievably annoying. Anyway to change her? Bytheway Mormon Coffee = Herb Tea.
germit –
You state, “JS goes the reverse, and has the Heavenly Father, and I suppose all the gods out there once having a body,and the angels pining away for one.”
One of the most basic of LDS doctrines is that God the Father has a tangible, exalted body now and forever. It’s not something he “once” had, but still has today. This goes along with another most basic of LDS doctrines that God the Father, his son Jesus Christ (who also has a body), and the Holy Ghost (who is a personage of spirit) are all separate beings.
D&C 130: 22 states, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”
Check out what Stephen said when he was being martyred: “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
(Acts 7:56)
How can you see one rolled together God standing next to himself?
As far as angels pining away for a body, that is only Satan’s angels who will never have the blessing of having a body. Angels of God whose work is to minister to the children of men generally have a body of flesh and bone because they are either already resurrected or translated.
It states in Moroni 7:29-30 “neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men. For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.”
You and others have a tendency to make sweeping untrue generalizations about the LDS church. For someone whining that the LDS church isn’t very open with their doctrine, you certainly haven’t done your homework. If you want to understand our doctrine, go to lds.org and on the very first page is a link called “Gospel Library” that can be searched by ANYONE. After that it will be more fun to discuss.
Germit,
Even if we take the language of Acts 7 literally, why assume that the F & S have corporeal bodies merely because they are seen?
And Trinitarians don’t see the divine persons “rolled into one.” They understand there to be a difference between whatness and whoness. So for Trinitarians it is possible to see distinct persons. And the text doesn’t say he saw the FAther, for as Paul says, no one has or CAN see the Father. (1 tim 6:16)
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
The biblical language is also capable of expressing different concepts than literal usage. Standing at the right hand is a semetic way of expressing a position of authority, vindication, etc., which is why you generally don’t hear about persons standing on the *left* hand. This is also why Jesus speaks of it as not being at the right hand of God, but at the right of the Power. (Matt 26:64) Hebrews also speaks this way as well in Heb 1:3.
I’d suggest that it helps sometimes to put yourself in the position of the other person and try to imagine how they are going to see specific passages. Your arguments will be much more effective if you can anticipate and preclude objections.
Susan,
You quote from Acts 7:56 but if you read on it says.
Acts 7:59
and they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Here Stephen is clearly referring to Jesus as God because this is how the early believers saw Jesus. This is how Christians today still see him.
The Mormons view of Jesus is incorrect according to what the Bible teaches. The point is not a matter of personal interpretation but of clear teaching. There are numerous instances of clear revelation like this directly from the Bible. It is also recorded that Thomas referred to Jesus as God
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Next time instead of just reading one line of scripture try reading the whole chapter and ask the Holy Spirit (directly) to reveal what God is trying to say to us.
GRCluff<— explaining himself for germit:
My contention is that angels and spirits, at least at the time the world was created are one in the same. The widely held belief that Angels are a unique type of created being is not Biblical AND false doctrine.
This issue is classic milk before meat scenario. We all have knee jerk reaction to the “sons of God” theme but it all makes sense in the end.
The verses I quoted are my first attempt to illustrate that point. The argument goes like this:
1. Christ and Satan were in heaven together. We need to admit this now.
2. Angels and spirits are one in the same. They are the same type of beings. Perhaps we took a couple baby steps on this one. (We are growing up now, no more spoon feeding- we are almost walking!)
3. Spirits in heaven are and were the spiritual offspring of God. We are created in his image as dual beings. (Heb 12:9) We have a spiritual being and a physical body.
4. We were spirits in heaven before coming to earth. (7 verses in my prior discussion)
5. Christ is also a dual being, who took on flesh when he came to earth.
6. Christ’s spirit was first born- the first spiritual offspring of God the Father who progressed to become God even before he came to earth.
7. Christ body was only begotten. The only physical son of God ever to be born on earth.
8. Christ and Satan were both spirit children of our Father in Heaven, but Satan and the spirits that followed him will forever be denied physical bodies for rebellion in heaven.
I have Bible verses to validate each step. Are you ready?
We’re ready…but first. If your thinking is correct then wouldn’t God be an angel according to this verse?
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Are you saying God is an angel?
I will start at Step 3. You can find steps 1 and 2 above.
Spirits in heaven are and were the spiritual offspring of God. We are created in his image as dual beings. We have a spiritual being and a physical body.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Who exactly is the Father of spirits? Could he be the father of the unclean spirits who called themselves Legion in Mark 5:8-9?
Why does Paul compare and contrast the father of our flesh with the Father of our spirit? Perhaps because they are two different beings?
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
38:7 …and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Who where the sons of God who shouted for joy when the world was created? Why use the term sons?
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God…
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God
John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God…
Step 4
We were spirits in heaven before coming to earth
Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee…
He knew Jeremiah personally, not planned to create him.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Why use the word promised? Why not planned? To whom did he promise eternal life?
Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How can your spirit return to a place it has never been? Could a spirit return to a plan that God has made?
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling…which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
When was this holy calling made? Can a holy calling be made to a person who does not exist?
Sed Contra,
2. Angellos can refer to humans such as John the Baptist or apostles. It simply means messenger. (Matt 11:10) Spirit and angel are therefore not co-extensive.
3. Father denotes origin or source. The use of Father does not of itself imply a procreative relationship.
Sons of God can also refer to humans as Adam on earth is referred to as a son of God. (Luke 3:38) The term sons has a wider scope than everyday literal usage.
Acts 17:29 is a citation from a hymn to Zeus. Paul is using it in a new direction to prove that he is revealing the unknown God to the pagans.
Romans 8 contrasts those who are children and those who are not. Consequently being a child here is relative to belief in messiah, not a procreative relationship.
Jer 1:5 God knows lots of things logically prior to their occurring. This does not imply that they exist. God knew Adam would sin and that does not imply Adam was sinning with God prior to his sinning on earth.
Titus 1:2 To promise or announce is not inconsistent with biblical usage anymore than God swearing by himself. Further the sense is prior to the ages or time. If God acts prior to time, this is inconsistent with the notion of a deity that exists in time.
Eccl 12:7 Only says that God gives life. It doesn’t indicate that it was by a procreative act with a female of his own species. The return is to return to the power that produced it.
2 Tim 1:9 Sure God can elect a people prior to their creation. Calling just denotes vocation or purpose and God is such that he doesn’t need things to exist for him to have a purpose for them.
Okay, per GRCluff we are moving from milk to meat. So, here are the Biblical differences I see between Lucifer and Jesus:
Lucifer is the one who was cast out of heaven for saying in his heart “I am a God”; God said to him “thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God” (Ezekiel 28:2, 14-19).
Cast out of heaven, Lucifer tries to tempt the first humans with the same sin that got him cast out of heaven, saying in essence “if you will only doubt God’s words and believe me, ye shall be as gods” (Genesis 3:1-5)
Satan is currently transformed as “an angel of light” (II Cor. 11:14) and we are warned in Scripture to beware of those who come “transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” (II Cor. 11:13) who are really the ministers of Satan “whose end shall be according to their works” (II Cor. 11:15). We are urged to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3) for there may come those who will preach “another gospel” (Galatians 1:6-9). We are told not to accept another gospel even if preached by “an angel from heaven” (Gal. 1:8). We are warned not to receive “another Jesus,” “another spirit,” or “another gospel” (II Cor. 11:4) because the devil “as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” whom we are to “resist stedfast in the faith.”
Here’s what I read about the Biblical Jesus:
He is God (John 1:1, John 3:13, I Tim. 2:3, I Tim. 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, Col. 1:13-19, Phil. 2:6, 10-11, etc, etc). It is very clearly stated in many places that there is only one God (Deut. 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8, 45:21-22, 46:9, I Timothy 2:5, etc). Yet Jesus is identified as God (see verses above as well as Isaiah 7;14, 9:6, John 20:28, Matt. 4:7, Romans 14:10-12), the Father is obviously identified as God, and the Holy Spirit is also God (I John 5:7).
(cont. in next post)
We see that God is a complex plural-unity (Genesis 1:26-27). The fact that He is not “on my level” or just one of many “glorified gods who were once men” increases my sense of awe and worship and propels me to further study and contemplation of this awesome LORD I serve for there is none like Him…
P.S. The Bible says God the Father does not have a physical body. See Matt. 16:17 for Jesus’ clear contrast between “flesh and blood” vs. “my Father which is in heaven”
JessicaJoy,
Since you’re new here, I will repeat what I have said a number of times in the past about the lie Lucifer told Adam and Eve.
We find in Genesis 2:16-17 that God told Adam – “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die“
Note the bold – If Adam eats the fruit from that tree he will die.
Now here is what Satan sad to Adam Genesis 3:4-5 “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil“
So he said 2 things – you will not die AND you will become like God knowing good from evil.
After they ate the fruit this is what God said to them in Genesis 3:22-25 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
So according to God, man had become like Him knowing good from evil – so Satan did not lie in saying this. The ONLY lie Satan told Adam and Eve was that they would not die, as God stopped them from eating the fruit from the tree of life so they could not “live forever (Gen 3:22)”.
I’m not surprised to see that Robert Millet was called on to define to the world what the Mormon Church believes about Christ. He is quick to say in his books that he does not speak for the Church, but the LDS Governing Authorities willingly put Millet on the spotlight to do the Church’s talking for them since it’s rare to see any of the General Authorities enter public venues and answer questions outside of a safe LDS setting. Millet is a spin doctor for the Mormon Church and namely for BYU. I would imagine his being asked about Jesus has to do something with his recent book entitled “A Different Jesus: The Christ of the Latter-day Saints”.
Millet is fully aware of the charge against the LDS Church for having a different Jesus than that of traditional Christianity and he also knows the verse in 2 Cor 11:4 that states there is a different Jesus. Millet painstakingly attempts to reconcile the Mormon Jesus with the Christian Jesus in the book but comes up way short and finally affirms that there are differences. A page-by-page analysis could be done, but space here will not allow it.
Millet and the LDS Church as of late have been doing everything in their power to become mainstream and blend in with traditional Christianity. Ignorant and misinformed Christian leaders have bought into the spin put out by Millet while failing to test the Mormon beliefs against scripture (1 Thes 5:21). The differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are staggering. To list the differences would take several threads but a few that go with the topic of this thread I will address.
The Mormons that are regulars on this blog have been told repeatedly the above stated and have apparently made their choice to follow the Mormon Jesus. They have that spiritual right (agency) to do that. For the Mormon observers that read the blog that don’t post I am addressing you. The no.1 question we have to ask ourselves is this: WHO IS JESUS CHRIST?
We must define our terms. If we don’t, then we are talking in circles and it’s evident so far, like many other threads, that this is what is going on. Most of the talking on here is meaningless if we don’t get to the root of the issue. If the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, then the small details that are being hashed over are meaningless as well.
“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons. Christ followed by the Mormons is NOT the Christ followed by traditional Christianity.” (Seventy Bernard Brockbank, 147th General Conference, May 1977)
“Among the most important differences with other Christian churches are those concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.” (LDS Newsroom: “Core Beliefs: Why and How Are Mormons Different?”)
Talking about the premortal existence of Jesus and Lucifer is dandy if you don’t get to the root of how these two supposed brothers got here. Mormon doctrine states that a “Mother in Heaven” had sexual relations with the Mormon’s Heavenly Father who has a physical body, is one god among many gods, is a polygamist and lives near the star Kolob. This is paganism to the core. Jesus was the first spirit child and Lucifer the second. This teaching is completely contradictory to the Bible and nowhere is their any mention of a heavenly mother anywhere or any of the other traits that define the Mormon’s Heavenly Father. The Mormons have assumed that there is a “mother in heaven” because if they can’t rationalize something in their mind then they reject it. In this case to assume is spiritually deadly. This is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible but rather the Jesus of Joseph Smith’s imagination and creation. Jesus of the Bible is not a created being from anyone much less from some mother in heaven servicing the Mormon god in celestial sex giving Jesus a brother named Lucifer. Jesus is the creator, was here from the beginning and is God.
I often ask Mormons what they think of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Most Mormons are repulsed at the sound of even their names. When I tell them that many of the LDS beliefs coincide with the JW’s beliefs they don’t believe it. However, in the case of who Jesus is they both have a lot in common. The JW’s say that Jesus is A God. The Mormons do as well:
“By obedience and devotion to the truth he [Jesus] attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God” (Mormon Doctrine, p.129)
“We place [Jesus Christ] on a pedestal as no other group I know of. To us he is not only the Son of God, he is also a God” (Spencer Kimball, Ensign, March 2008, p.9)
The JW’s Bible (New World Translation): “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was a God.” (John 1:1, NWT)
Jesus is a created being in both of these non-Christian religions. The Jesus of the Bible and Christianity say Jesus is God…period – not a God. There is a big difference between the two. To get that wrong is to be spiritually lost.
Mormonism teaches that one must have a body to attain godhood. However, Jesus did not have a body. How then could this happen like they say? How did Jesus progress? Before Jesus did this he had to have been just another spirit child like Lucifer so thus they were on an equal plane at some point.
It doesn’t matter. This is a different Jesus and this one can’t redeem anyone. There is only one correct Jesus and the Mormons, just like the JW’s created Jesus, don’t have Him. The Jesus of the Bible and of Christianity for over 2,000 years is the correct Jesus. Jesus and Lucifer are not brothers. Jesus created Lucifer, the other angels and all that there is (Col 1:16; John 1:3).
You won’t be able to blame Joseph Smith for deceiving you when you stand in judgement and are sent to outer darkness for following this false, created, “a god” Jesus. You have the revealed scriptures of the Bible. Come to the real Jesus today!
Ready for step 5? Let’s identify Christ properly.
Christ is also a dual being, who took on flesh when he came to earth.
Let’s take the first chapter of John, then replace Word with Jehovah, and then we can see it all more clearly:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Jehovah, and the Jehovah was with God, and the Jehovah was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
14 And the Jehovah was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
No confusion at all. Every statement is correct. Jehovah was the creator of the World, and was WITH God in the beginning. He was at God’s right hand in Stephen’s vision.
Acts 7: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God…
He is one with God in purpose, not in substance.
John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
In the beginning he was spirit, after resurrection he is body and spirit combined. He did not burn up his body in the atmosphere as he ascended into heaven. That proposition is ridiculous.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Hi Ralph, Thanks for your comments. Actually, the way I see it, Satan’s first tactic was to question what God had already said – “Yea, hath God said…?” Not unlike a number of religious groups (including the Mormons) who put a big ? over the Bible and claim it can’t really be trusted because it has been “corrupted” or is only reliable “in so far as it has been translated correctly.” The woman was deceived because she trusted the serpent, listened to what he said, and followed what he said even when it contradicted what God had already said, but she also added to God’s words (note 3:3) – she added that God said “neither shall ye touch it” but we do not see where this was ever part of the commandment God gave (2:16-17). He only said they were not to eat of it.
So we see from the first example of human failings the capacity to be deceived by Satan when we 1) doubt, twist, change, or ignore what God has already said, 2) add to what He has said (Rev. 22:18-19), 3) accept words that contradict what He has already said by listening to and submitting to the devil in one of his various clever disguises (Matt. 7:15).
P.S. AWESOME posts, Berean!!
Ralph: thoughtful post, per usual. I don’t want to send this thread into a long discussion about the fall, so if you want to continue this via my personal e-mail: get that from the mods, that’s fine with me. I’ll make a few comments and quit, to respect the line of topic. Just because Adam and Eve got SOME of what the enemy promised, does NOT mean that the biggest lie is not embedded in knowing good and evil. Satan says ‘eat this, smoke that, and you will feel much better…’ and lo, we feel much better, for awhile. they got knowledge of good and evil, that does NOT mean that the basic lie in not found there. I’d suggest asking “what was the temptation” if we want to find the (biggest) lie. small hint: it was NOT immortality. e-mail back if you want to pursue this there.
Susan: with school coming on, it’s always good to be reminded to do one’s homework: duly noted, I’ll try to be good, but it’s so DARN easy to be bad (at least for me). I’d say “observation of demonstrated behaviour, repeatedly” instead of “whining” but if you want to go with “whining”, it’s still a free country. That issue (the LDS propensity to cloak what they really believe until it suits them) is not going away). Yes I make strong statements, are they overstatements or generalizations ?? I’ll let Jesus be my judge, and I accept responsibility for what I say, even every careless word. If I’m wrong, bear witness from His Holy Word, and/or factual evidence of the wrong and shut me up, until then, I’m constrained to show the world the deathly errors of JS and what he has made: and there are so many to choose from. An aside: you seem to have trouble with figurative language: metaphors and the like: “at the right hand of God ” has nothing whatsoever to do with some kind of mythical ‘physical right hand of God’, and that would have been an amusing (and blasphemous) idea to the ancient Jews. Not so amusing or blasephemous to JS, who didn’t give a hoot for what the Jews REALLY thought and believed
Let me post what I see as contradictions among the Mormon scripture and teachings by LDS.
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God was once a man:
Teachings pg 345-346.
Mormon scripture teaches that God has always been God in:
Mormon 9:9-11,19
Moroni 7:22
The Bible teaches that God was not a man:
Psalm 50:21
Numbers 23:19
Romans 1:22-23
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones:
D and C 130:22
A of F. pg 43
Mormon scripture teaches that God is a spirit:
Alma 18:26-28 and 22:9-11.
The Bible teaches that God is a Spirit:
John 4:24
Luke 24:39
Jeremiah 23:24
Psalms 139:7-10
The Bible is very clear: God is and always was God; He was never a man. Please explain just what the word eternal means. According to the dictionary, it means eternal or forever. The Bible is clear – God is eternal. Even the 1st A of F teaches that God is eternal.
Mormon Doctrine teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers.
Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 15.
Mormon Doctrine, pgs. 192,590.
Mormon Scripture teaches that Jesus is God:
Mosiah 7:27
D and C 38:1-3
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God:
Psalms 33:6
John 1:1–14:9
Hebrews 11:3
1 Timothy 3:16
1 John 5:20
Revelation 19:13.
I believe as the Bible teaches, Jesus Christ is God, not a God.