The LDS General Conference in October 1900 focused a lot on the law of tithing. The repetition on that topic was due to the feeling among Church leadership that the second coming of Christ was near and the Saints needed to be prepared. “We should see to it that nothing is left undone by us, no commandment unfulfilled, no counsel or instruction disregarded” taught President George Q. Cannon. He said,
“Many who are now within the sound of my voice have been promised that they shall live, if they have faith, to behold the second coming of the Lord. The Lord has also promised that certain events shall take place while men that are standing in the generation in which these promises were made will Yet [sic] be alive.” (Conference Report, 64)
President Lorenzo Snow taught something similar. He quoted Doctrine and Covenants 63:24-31, a passage about the Saints building Zion in Jackson County, Missouri. President Snow explained:
“Now the time is fast approaching when a large portion of the people that I am now addressing will go back to Jackson county. A great many people that are now dwelling in the State of Utah will have this privilege. Whether I, President Cannon, President Smith, or all the brethren of the Twelve will go back I know not. But a large portion of the Latter-day Saints that now dwell in these valleys will go back to Jackson county to build a holy city to the Lord, as was decreed by Jehovah and revealed through Joseph Smith.” (Conference Report, 61)
So, to emphasize the need to be prepared, about half of the speakers at the Conference talked to the congregation about tithing. The other half talked about the necessity of keeping other commandments. Heber J. Grant, referencing 1 Nephi 3:7, said in his talk,
“We have the commandments of the Lord before us in the written word, and from time to time we have our minds refreshed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon those who are called upon to preach to us. There is therefore no excuse for the Latter-day Saint who does not keep the commandments of God. We cannot say that we do not knew what our duties are, because they are so often and so forcibly brought to our minds by those who speak to us… Each one should search his own heart to find out wherein he has failed, and then he should diligently seek unto our heavenly Father for the assistance of His Holy Spirit, that he may come back into the straight path. By the assistance of our Heavenly Father there is no obligation and no law in the Church that we cannot fulfill. The Lord will give us the strength and the ability to accomplish every duty and labor that rests upon us in an acceptable manner in His sight. The only question is, have we the disposition?” (Conference Report, 33)
President Cannon taught,
“The Lord has revealed unto us that which He wants us to do, and though we do not receive written revelations (the men who have held the keys have not always felt led to write revelations as the Prophet Joseph did), the servants of the Lord do receive revelations, and they are as binding upon the people as though they were printed and published throughout all the Stakes of Zion. The oracles of God are here, and He speaks through His servant whom He has chosen to hold the keys. He gives revelations to others also concerning many matters, but it is reserved for one man, and one man alone at a time, to give revelations to the Church. We have been blessed as a people with an abundance of revelation. Some have deceived themselves with the idea that because revelations have not been written and published, therefore there has been a lessening of power in the Church of Christ. This is a very great mistake, as we will find out sooner or later. This Church has been continually led by the spirit of revelation. The spirit of revelation has been here in our conference. The addresses that have been delivered have been made under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and they are the word of God unto this people, binding upon them, and they will be judged by these words that we have heard. If we do not listen to these instructions and counsels and abide by the word of God as it is given to us from time to time, we shall be held to a strict accountability.” (Conference Report, 64)
Several things stand out to me from this Conference. One is the surety among Mormon leaders that “many” alive in 1900 would still be alive at the second coming of Christ, and that “a large portion” of the people in the congregation would live to return to Jackson County, Missouri to build up the holy city of Zion. This was 108 years ago. There may be a few of those people still alive, but surely not “a large portion” remain.
Another interesting teaching from the Conference is that Latter-day Saints cannot offer excuses for failing to fulfill every obligation, law and duty in the LDS Church. People cannot alleviate the burden of keeping all the commandments by saying “nobody’s perfect.” First Nephi 3:7 means what it says; everyone is able to fulfill every commandment.
Finally, there’s the declaration that the General Conference teachings (and other unwritten revelations) “are the word of God unto this people, binding upon them, and they will be judged by these words…”. For those Mormons who claim that the teachings of LDS prophets, seers and revelators are not binding because they fall outside the Standard Works, or because they were not written down, or because they have not been canonized, President Cannon’s words must be disconcerting. Perhaps they need to rethink their position.
From the initial post: “We have the commandments of the Lord before us in the written word, … There is therefore no excuse for the Latter-day Saint who does not keep the commandments of God”
In the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, we believe that we are saved through the grace of Christ as we accept Him as our Savior through word AND deed. Simple profession, without a sincere effort to living according to the pattern of His life, is not considered genuine acceptance of the Savior.
In the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, we indeed put more emphasis on the role of keeping the commandments Christ in our salvation than may other Christians. But it’s not about some contest to see who’s best at it. It’s about loving Christ and genuinely seeking to follow our Lord by doing as He has asked us to do.
Just a side note to the Christian contributors here because it’s off topic: It is by necessity that Mormons misunderstand the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we preach. The truth of the Gospel has been presented on this site numerous times, clearly and unequivocally. A person would have to be blind to not see it. And that’s the point, given a clear differentiation of the Biblical Gospel in contrast to the Mormon restored gospel, they still don’t get it. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ disrupts their religious world view. So they have to repeat the urban legends about Christian doctrine regarding salvation that make the rounds of the Mormon wards.
Within the last couple of days I happened to meet a young woman who attended a public university in the west in a community that was nearly all Mormon. She didn’t know that when she chose the university nor did she know anything about Mormonism. She had her mother get a comparison chart from her Lutheran pastor back home so she could see the differences between Lutheranism and Mormonism. When she saw it she about dropped her teeth. So she shows the comparison chart to her lapsed LDS roommate and asks if that’s what Mormons believe. Her roommate said that yes indeed the comparison was accurate. She then showed the chart to a male active LDS friend and asked the same thing. The guy goes ballistic. Says it’s untrue and that it was written by Lutherans and generally wets his pants over it. It reminds me of that line from the movie A Few Good Men: “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth.” I’ve yet to have a Mormon on this blog tell any of us specifically what we get wrong with Mormonism. I’ve asked and they just go off on how we don’t understand. Did Joseph Smith put a seer stone in a hat, shove his face in the hat, and by this means receive “revelation”? If he did he was using a Biblically condemned occult practice of scrying in order to receive messages from the spirit world. Not that tough to see the truth folks.
Bishop Winter,
You said, “Simple profession, without a sincere effort to living according to the pattern of His life, is not considered genuine acceptance of the Savior.”
Again, there is nothing wrong with this statement. It is all about genuine acceptance of Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior. Human effort is involved as a response to God’s grace. Christians don’t deny that. Again, it is a misrepresentation of our beliefs. It’s just we see grace differently. Grace is not something attached to our works as an appendage “after all we can do.” Grace is evident throughout our entire lives. It is by grace that we are offered salvation and are able to live lives that glorify God. But, our works don’t play a role in our salvation past the point that they are evidence of our faith, which I believe lines up with what you believe to some extent. But, when you put more emphasis on your works (keeping the commandments), you get into the area of man-centered theology and not Christ-centered. The emphasis has to be on grace because without grace our works wouldn’t matter. Christ fulfilled the purpose of the Law. It’s all about Him, what HE did on Calvary, and less on what we do. C.S. Lewis does a good job of explaining that we are able to do good works because it is God doing them through us. It would be great for you to read through Romans 9, 10, and 11, as well. This really clears things up with regard to the Law and grace.
Grace and Peace!
In The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS (nicknamed Mormons) we teach that the main role of a prophet is to testify of Jesus Christ as our Saviour. Joseph Smith followed the long line of prophets from Adam to John the Revelator in testifying of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, has the same purpose. The Bible and the Book of Mormon unitedly declare to the world that Christ is the Redeemer of Mankind.
It is often said that Joseph Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. In the sense that he acted as an instrument in the hands of Christ in the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth, that is true. But we should never neglect to acknowledge at the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the work of Christ, and not of any other person.
Webster’s New World Dictionary defines `Christian`as “a person professing belief in Jesus Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.“
And so, without redefining the English language or misrepresenting the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Mormons are – indeed – Christians.
Here’s the problem with Joseph Smith’s revelation of Jesus Christ. It’s not the Biblical Jesus Christ. If Joseph Smith had come to me with this revelation of Jesus Christ, I would have had one more indication that his revelation was false revelation. Joseph Smith’s revelation of God was that of a once human man that reached exaltation along with other men, by their works. The offspring of one of these gods and one of his goddess wives was someone known in the occult spirit world that Joseph Smith traveled in as, Jesus Christ.
Now obviously, Mormons themselves reject prophetic revelation within their own religion as false. That’s basically the topic at hand here. The article quoted above says if the prophet says it, it’s true. And yet Mormons flounder to determine even within their own religion; trying to define and determine what “counts” and what doesn’t. Joseph Smith had a revelation of an angel with a sword that was going to kill him if he didn’t marry more women. He used this as a technique to convince at least one woman to marry him. He revealed to his followers that in order to reach the highest level of the celestial kingdom they had to have multiple wives. This revelation was later rejected when pressure was brought to bear (by Christians) on the practice and the acceptance of Mormons into mainstream American life was predicated on their stopping the practice. Had the pressure not come by Christians for Mormons to stop plural marrage, they wouldn’t have done it. So even from Mormon standards, there is false revelation. The FLDS has clung to the original revelations, being true to the concept as revealed to Joseph Smith. The Community of Christ Mormon sect rejects Joseph Smith’s revelation up front staying with the pre1832 teachings. They have a prophet as does the Temple Lot. They get Mormon revelation that is at odds with Salt Lake City Mormonism and Bringham Young style Mormonism practiced by the FLDS. Christians have no problem seeing the truth here.
falcon,
In dismissing Joseph Smith, you seem to rely a great deal on the seer stone and/or Urim and Thummim. What do you know about them?
“And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.” Ex 28:30
“And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.” Numb 27:21
“And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah.” Deut 33:8.
“And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.” Sam 28:6
“And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.” Ezra 2:63
While little can be concluded from these OT passages, ancient Jewish accounts provide interesting details. Josephus writes in Antiquities of the Jews that in addition to the twelve stones in the breastplate, there was one stone on the high priest’s right shoulder from which rays of light would shine. It would shine when Israel was marching to victory. But when the nation disobeyed, the stone ceased shining.
Zohar Exocus 231b reads: “Observe that the ephod and breastplate were behind and before, and so the Priest, when clothed in them, resembled the supernal pattern. As has already been said, when his face was illumined and the letters stood out brightly, then a message was thereby conveyed to him. For this reason the breastplate and the ephod were tied together.”
continued…
The Dead Sea Scrolls also mention the Urim and Thummim and their glowing nature: In reference to the rubies and sapphires of Isaiah 54:11-12, the Isaiah Pesher says, “Its interpretation concerns the twelve chiefs of the priests who illuminate with the judgment of the Urim and Thummim without any from among them missing, like the sun in all its light.” (The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, Florentino Garcia Martinez, 1996, 190-1).
The Bahir, an old Jewish work says: “This is the measure of all merchandise in the world. It is also the power of the precious stones that are called socheret and Dar? This teaches us that God took a thousandth of its radiance, and from it He constructed a beautiful precious stone. In it He included the commandments. Abraham came, and He sought a power to give him. He gave him this precious stone.” (Aryeh Kaplan, The Bahir, 1989, p. 75). (Socheret and Dar are rendered ‘black and white’ in the KJV-the real meaning is unknown because Esther 1:6 is the only place where the two Hebrew words are used, but Jewish tradition holds that they were precious stones).
The Talmud agrees with the concept of Abraham possessing a precious stone. R. Eliezer the Modiite explained that Abraham had a power of reading the stars for which he was much sought after. Some Jewish accounts hold that he did so through a precious stone. A variant of the Talmud passage reads: “He possessed an astrological instrument.” (John A. Tvedtnes, Abraham and the Urim and Thummim, FARMS, 2001). This agrees with the POGP on the subject and the use of precious stones for revelation.
Almost all ancient references agree that they radiate light. It makes sense to place it in a dark place (hat, room) to decipher what is being communicated. Little was know about the ancient Urim and Thummim in JS’s day. Either way, it is clear that anciently, communication with God DID take place through such media!
Winter,
We believe in prophets; it’s just that we reject JS because his “revelations” teach an entirely different religion. We believe JS teaches a god that was actually created, and we believe in a God who is Creator and not the created. So, what’s really in question is the authenticity of JS as a prophet, and he doesn’t stand up against biblical scrutiny. As Falcon so eloquently expresses, there is confusion within Mormonism as to what has been revelation and what is no longer revelation.
Jesus Christ wouldn’t be involved in any so-called restoration that distorts the good news of God’s grace, instituting a works-righteousness theology and legalism, and which also relegates the Bible to a questionable source at best. I pray you will test JS teachings against the Bible, and not the other way around.
Grace and Peace!
Sorry FoF, your boy Joe used a magic rock that he used to hunt treasure and then turned to hunting spirits and revelation and you’re stuck with it. You can try to find some Biblical justification for his scrying for revelation, but you’re way off the beam. All that has to be done is to examine the product of his revelation and subsequent Mormon prophets utterances to see that these folks were into something that has nothing to do with the Bible. Besides FoF don’t you know the Bible is, according to Mormons, corrupt. So why are you quoting it in an attempt to justify Joseph Smith’s occult methods of divination. The bottom line is that Salt Lake City based Mormons don’t even know what to count as revelation within their own religious experience. I guess the rule is, if the guy’s dead, forget it.
Let’s try this. How do Salt Lake City based Mormons judge as to the veracity of the FLDS (who actually follow Joseph Smith), the Community of Christ, and Temple Lot? How do you judge as to the “truth” of their prophets’ revelations? They don’t agree with the SLCLDS Mormon denomination of which you’re a proud member. You don’t agree with them. Why not? They have prophets. They have a story. They have a claim. You all can’t be the one true Mormon church. What’s the standard by which you measure the revelation of each of these groups? The group you swear loyalty to has way too many do overs and don’t counts to be taken seriously. If you have to depend on your own personal revelation in the light of the clear facts, you’ve been duped. Ah but how can it be wrong when it feels so right?
I’m curious, too, to have a Mormon explain Canon’s comments above to JS’s attempt to sell the copyright to the BOM.
There, JS said that prophecies can essentially be wrong.
Yet Canon seems to be saying the prophets cannot be wrong.
This seems problematic, and is not so far from what Falcon’s asking, and my insistence on differentiating the mormon test for truth. In Smith’s own words: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.”
falcon,
I expected exactly that response from you. Plugging your ears and yelling blah, blah, blah when confronted with information that contradicts your ranting. Your statements are always so emotion-based, it is honestly hard to see anything but emotion. I am sure you are a great guy, but try thinking through some of these things before pushing the “rant” button.
Evangelist scholars Paul Owen and Carl Mosser shocked the world of LDS critics when they said “What you probably don’t know are the advances the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) is making in apologetics and academic respectability. With superb training, Mormon scholars outclass many of their opponents. Arguments against Mormon claims are increasingly refuted as outdated, misinformed, or poorly argued.”
Your approach does nothing if not prove their point.
And by the way, I have explained more than once that, based on the priesthood structure Joseph clearly set up before his death, the succession of the church leadership was never in question. Also, look at the prophecies in the BOM about what would become of the church- none of the other groups comes close. But I am sure you won’t bother with those details.
Till next time!
FoF,
Be careful on your criticism. That’s essentially what you did to the “test” discussion we had.
How long did we discuss and in whta detail, and then you ask me about which test I was talking about?
Funny thing about Owen and Mosser is that they are no friends of the Mormon church and have published books about why it is wrong. So be careful about who it is you choose to cite. Have you read anything by them? Or are you just familiar with that statement?
Acknowlidging that Mormons are sincere and are gewtting more sophisticated does not amount to a statement that they think Mormons are right.
So, are your eyes closed or do you see the whole thing?
Michael P,
I am still waiting for you to explain the test you were referring to. Yes- we talked about “my” test at great length. I honestly don’t know what “your” test was (you challenged me to try your test instead of mine). I spent quite a few posts trying to answer your questions and clarify things for you. Sorry if it still isn’t clear. Happy to resume that discussion! But you never answered me? when I asked for your view on your own questions.
I know the context of the statement from Owen and Mosser. I never said they believe “that mormons were right.” I know how they feel. If anything, the fact that they are LDS critics lends additional weight to their statement. Ultimately, their point stands- many LDS critics simply recite old, refuted claims with no attention to new, more sophisticated findings from the opposing side.
I was highlighting the truth of their statement as it applies to falcon’s approach, especially when he faces information he doesn’t like.
Some people recycle the same arguments over and over (sure- probably on both sides) and ignore new information and research. It is difficult to get these folks to follow a linear discussion and resond to new, “objective,” data.
faithoffathers,
It is interesting that you cite a Jewish mystic from the thirteenth century as a source justifying Joseph Smith’s use of divination. Especially since Moses De Leon utterly botched the Hebrew language, ironically in a very similar way that Joseph Smith Jr. did in his exegesis of Genesis 1:1.
Furthermore the method of use for the Urim and Thummim could be compared to flipping a coin or rolling a die, as the answer were Yes or No, or of that nature, righteous/unrighteous. The were never used for divination revelation or translation in all of scripture.
Lautensack
FoF, On Oct 24, I wrote the answer to your question. To quote from it: “How do I answer the test of confirming a witness? Go to scripture! That’s the first step. Confirm what is said by what is written. God had everything written for a purose. Prayer is certainly important, as is a humble heart. But the first step to confirm a ‘revelation’ is to go to the scriptures.” Go back and read the whole thing for more.
I think you miss the point about Owens and Mosser.
And their ‘admission’ is hardly in your favor, except to say that your defenses are getting more sophisticated. Sophisticated does not mean it is right…
Yes, it is difficult to get folks to respond to new information. This is why I have been hitting harder the concept that most LDS do not understand our faith, just as they criticize us for the same thing toward them.
For example, you have been told more than once that Christiainity is not a lazy faith (paraphrasing LDS view). Do you know this? Can you back up the criticism with more than just reciting the mantra? Can you point to the myriad of Christians who have truly transformed their lives to become warriors for God? Or do you just like to point to those who, like parable of the seeds in the rock, grow quickly then fall away?
Consider:
Wide is the road but narrow is the gate.
Not all who use Christ’s name will enter the kingdom.
I give these two summaries of Christ’s sayings to demonstrate our point of view in light of the people who claim to be saved, but who fall away and sin. Does our point of view make sense based on these, coupled with the parable listed above?
I know you think differently, but that’s not my point. I am not asking you to agree or disagree, but rather to see our argument.
If you do, then stop for a moment and consider that.
Consider the differences in our ‘tests’ and why it is that they exist. Consider their ramifications, on both sides.
Falcon,
Just want you to know you have my support. I always look forward to what you have to say.
Peace and Grace!
Michael wrote:
…you’ve got two options (well three)– 1) stop your complaining when we point out aspect of your faith that we observe, with myriad of quotes from your leaders, like Mr. Canon in this thread. 2) start trying to understand our faith, like you want us to do. And the third is to avoid discussion.
It’s nice to know my options, and they make good sense as far at I can tell.
My complaining you mention typically takes the form of; “Will you stop telling me what I believe, I should be the expert on that!”
I have learned that it works the same in reverse. Maybe you should be expert on what you believe as a Christian but I should be allowed to make my observations about the poor state of Christianity, to be fair, avoid the double standard, and to avoid hypocrisy. Sound familiar?
I can understand what Christians insist is doctrine. Lautensack defends it well with Repent and believe.
What you REALLY believe is witnessed much more by what you DO that what teachings you profess.
What you point to as hypocrisy is really just a difference of opinion, a contrast of strongly held beliefs.
REAL hypocrisy is shown by teaching one thing but doing another.
If Christians really believe in Repent and believe why was there such a contrast in the lives of so called Christians in my high school?
Repent and believe is what Mormons do. They avoid the serious sins by repenting from the small sins day by day and week by week. They seek the Holy Spirit and find joy in the work of God. This I have done all my life.
My observations on Christians is they always sow thier wild oats first. That is NOT repent and believe. I can use your own words as evidence:
My old pastor was a drug addict (Lon Solomon). Another was a jerk who forced his girlfriend into several abortions (Ken Baugh). Many were heathens and disgusting people before coming to Christ.
Most (but not all) fo mos you find here made similar mistakes.
I heard that the subject of revelation, prophets and the Second Advent was being discussed on this thread. I’d like to bring this discussion back on topic please. I just finished reading and studying Doctrine and Covenants very thoroughly and I would like to share some insights on what I have learned relating to this specific issue.
D&C 130:14-17 – Joseph Smith is supposedly given revelation as to the return of Christ because he was “praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man.” Joseph was asking for information that even Jesus didn’t know at that time in His earthly ministry (Matt 24:36). In D&C 130:14 Joseph “heard a voice”. The identity of that “voice” is never identified which is suspicious (see 1 John 4:1). We read in D&C 130:15 that this “voice” tells Joseph that “IF thou livest until thou are eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man”. In D&C 130:17 Joseph Smith tells us that “the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.”
Those are very specific numbers and definitely conflict with Matthew 24:36. The “IF” in D&C 130:15 is puzzling because it paints the Mormon god as being unsure how long JS will live. If this were Almighty God, then He would know and wouldn’t even give a half-answer. This doesn’t rule out those Mormons who would live should JS not make it to his 85th birthday.
This revelation was written in Apirl 1843 when JS was 37 years old. Let’s do some math: 85 years old subtract 37 (present age) leaves 48 years remaining. Add 48 years to 1843 and we have the year 1891. What is significant about this year?
Joseph Smith gave revelation in Kirtland on February 14, 1835 “because God commanded it, and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit.” He stated that Christ would return in 56 years. (History of the Church, Vol.2, p.182). Add 56 to 1835. What do you get? 1891 – the same year! The D&C 130 revelation matches the one in 1835. They both were wrong.
(Cont’d)
Deut 18:22 says that Joseph Smith is a false prophet completely just on this fact alone not to mention him contradicting scripture in Matthew 24:36. The LDS Manual “Preparing for Exaltation” says on page 85:
“God will never give personal revelation that contradicts what has already been revealed in scriptures.”
Other Mormon scriptures don’t make it any easier on Joseph Smith either when it comes to false prophecies when speaking supposedly as a prophet of the Lord. D&C 1:37 says that prophecies and promises shall all be fulfilled. D&C 1:38 says that “my word…shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, IT IS THE SAME.” God’s purposes, works and designs must come to pass (D&C 3:1). “The mouths of the prophets shall not fail” (D&C 58:8). It’s not looking good for JS in Mormonism or Christianity.
All this talk about the need for a prophet today has me wondering why the Mormon god has quit talking? Joseph Smith wrote 133 “revelations” out of 138 from the D&C. The Mormon god did a lot of talking when Joseph Smith was around, but seems to have become strikingly silent the last 90 years. Sections 134 & 137 were written prior to JS’ death. Section 135 is a history recap of JS’ death. Anyway, the only two “revelations” since JS’ death were sections 136 & 138. Section 138 was written in 1918 and wasn’t offically added to the D&C until 1976. That leaves only two revelations since the time of JS’ death.
Throughout D&C we read about the Mormon god who can’t stop talking at times giving intricate instructions and details to individual Mormons:
Newel Whitney gets to keep his country store (D&C 68:42). Robert Foster is to build JS a home (D&C 124:115). Martin Harris is told what to do with his money (D&C 104:26). The list could on and on.
With everything that has taken place in the world especially involving Mormons and with all the prophets since 1918, why has the Mormon god grown silent after JS died?
If Mormonism is all about further revelation, then where is the revelation? When is the prophet going to speak? The Mormon god was silent through his prophet through WW1, WW2, The Great Depression, Korean War, JFK assassination, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm 1, etc. He was very silent through 9/11. That affected a lot of Mormons. The Mormon god could talk about Newel Whitney’s country store (D&C 68:42-43), but had nothing to say to the Mormon faithful on 9/11? What about Amos 3:7? Why weren’t the Mormons or the world warned by Prophet Gordon Hinckley?
Moving on, there was a lot of build up in making the Kirtland Temple a reality. Revelations were given and D&C 109 is a long-winded prayer given at the dedication of it. Supposedly, marvelous events took place there. Jesus, Moses and Elijah appeared there. After all this took place in less than two years the Mormons abandoned Ohio and the Kirtland Temple and were in Missouri. In 1874 the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) officially took over the Kirtland Temple and own it today.
D&C 84 is another false prophecy since there is no temple at Temple Lot which is owned by the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). The only temple in Missouri is in St. Louis. The LDS Church has a visitor’s center at Temple Lot – a far cry from a temple.
This isn’t Almighty God talking in the D&C. It’s the Mormon god talking to JS, and now, the Mormon god saying nothing to LDS prophets today. Listen to the God of the Bible, not the god of Temple Square, Utah.
Thanks for reading…I’ll see you in a few weeks.
Berean
Berean,
Thank you very much for your time and efforts here regarding Mormon revelation generally and Joseph Smith in particular. One of the things that sticks in my mind in an interview I heard with Grant Palmer, author of an “Insiders View of Mormon Origins”. In Joseph Smith’s treasure hunting days, he and his cronies never found anything. And there was always an excuse like someone “spoke” out of turn or they drew the “circle” around the diggiing spot wrong. The point of course is that this is apart of Mormon tradition, custom and culture….there is always an escape hatch built into the revelatory experience. You did a fine piece of work here and I can feel the Mormon spin machine cranking-up telling us why we are so wrong about all of these unfullfilled revelations. It’s like the shell game of trying to find the pea under the right cup. Mormons just keep moving things around trying to keep people guessing and wondering and supposing. It all comes down to the TBM’s testimony. They got that feeling that told them the whole program is true and they’re not giving it up no matter what the evidence. Thanks again for your yeoman’s effort. I know it’s appreciated.
Well, you’ve brought up one of my favourite topics – modern revelation. It’s the coolest thing. (Don’t confuse scriptural canon with divine revelation. Revelation is simply communication from God to man. Canon is the official scripture of the Church.)
Spencer W. Kimball was the prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS from Dec 30, 1973 to Nov 5, 1985. Reasonably current.
At a press conference held at the Arizona Temple Visitor’s Center, a news reporter asked him, “Does God speak to you? And, if so, how?”
His answer, “Yes. God speaks to his prophets today, just as he spoke to his prophets yesterday and just as he will speak to them tomorrow. You will remember Amos wrote, ‘Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.’ (Amos 3:7). Sometimes he speaks with an audible voice. Sometimes he sends his angels, as he did to Joseph, the stepfather of Jesus. Usually it is by the still small voice of God to the spirit within. Yes. Have I answered your question, young man?”
He adds, “…from the prophet of the Restoration [Joseph Smith] to the prophet of our own year [himself], the communication line is unbroken, the authority is continuous, a light, brilliant and penetrating, continues to shine. The sound of the voice of the Lord is a continuous melody and a thunderous appeal.”
Our recent past prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, clearly pre-warned us of the current global financial crisis. I guess you missed it. There are many, many other contemporary examples.
I can personally witness the reality of current, on going revelation in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
CLUFF: you can and should make comments about christianity. And those comments are certainly welcome, at least welcomed by me, but when you repeatedly tell us that christians do NOT believe in a bodily ressurection, then I have a very hard time taking you seriously, and tend to gloss over your posts. In your favor, you haven’t given us that little chestnut of wisdom lately, thank you sir. I know I’ve said things about your faith that should have been edited better at the front end, so it happens on both ends of the aisle.
Berean: you’ve really done a great job banging on the deseret bee’s nest, this should be interesting; great job, my friend. I don’t which is more damaging: the false prophecies or the absence of prophecy by the restored church with the inside track on revelation. Hmmmm. Take yer pick, seems to me.
Falcon: point well taken about JS and the treasure digging. It’s been often said that ‘the young man, Joseph Smith, had a gift’….but if he NEVER found treasure (and I’ve yet to hear any solid evidence of anything actually found) then what WAS that GIFT they’re talking about?? Maybe it’s convincing people that he had a gift…. GERmIT
I am impressed that you read and studied the Doctrine and Covenants, Berean!
Yes- modern revelation continues, just as powerful and beautiful as ever. But people who look for great outward signs very often miss what the Lord is trying to communicate. There is a reason for this. He often spoke in parables so only those who were humble and thirsty for truth would understand.
The Lord speaks through His prophet every six months in General Conference. Interesting that there was a thread here discussing how “boring” conference is. For members of the church who have the spirit in their lives, they are anything but boring. And there are constant revelations- but rarely are they of a nature to impress the worldly.
How about the Proclamation to the World on the Family? This declaration was published just before the obvious accelaration and push in the gay-marriage movement which has swept our society. You heard no word of such arrangements before this declaration which warned of the dangers of confusing gender principles and the breakdown of the family. Was that not a prophetic warning?
Like winter said, how about President Hinckley’s warning about a financial “portent of stormy weather” coming? In his talk, he related the seven years of plenty and seven of famine in ancient Egypt. Interesting that it was about seven years between that talk and the first manifestations of our current financial crisis.
They have been telling us to get out of debt. And that is really what has caused our current crisis- individuals and institutions carrying too much debt. Look at the way they run the church from a financial perspective- pretty impressive and inspiring.
I believe it is all just like the period of time before the flood- Noah buiding an ark and people laughing at his foolishness. The modern prophets are quietly and consistently leading LDS through inspiration. Someday, their wisdom of prophetic vision will be recognized by all.
Hay look Mormon friends, you need to understand something very clearly, you are entitled to your religious beliefs and your rationale for doing such. But, and here’s the big but, don’t try to sell it as restored Christianity. Sell it for what it is, religious entrepreneurism of Joseph Smith. As Christian apologists, we have a duty and obligation to question with vigor anyone who claims to have a vision or revelation of a “new” gospel. It’s an easy task in the case of the revlatory utterances of Joseph Smith. The bottom line is that Mormons have to want to believe it…period. I realize the more we point out the things we point out regarding Mormonism, the more the TBMs dig their heels in. It’s a badge of courage in Mormondom to suspend credulity in defending the religion of Joseph Smith. If it feels good, do it…..was the motto of the 60s. Mormonism is the religious equvalent of an energy drink. Tastes good, gets you high, no nutritional value. The desire to become a god must be an aphrodisiac beyond compare.
About ten years ago, a guy I know, told me that the bottom was going to fall out on the market. Yup, there you are, its happened. Three years ago, a financial guy I know told me he had all of clients move out of the market and into cash. Trouble was coming. Yup, there you are, its happened. Add to that that eight months ago a friend of mine(s) brother told her to get out of the market, impending doom. Yup, there you are, it happened. By Mormon standards, all of these guys are prophets.
My guess is that some of our TBM Mormon friends sit with rapt attention and awe as their prophet speaks at general conference. Nothing like being preset with expectations and anticipation to see everything as “inspirational” and “prophetic”. This is pretty typical with true believers of every stripe and every movement, secular as well as religious. The devoted followers are constantly looking for validation and affirmation that what they have committed themselves to is true. Who cares? Keep the standard low. Just about any prophet will be able to crawl over it.
Falcon,
You said, “The bottom line is that Mormons have to want to believe it…period.” That is so true! When my son came back from his mission a year ago, I wanted the Church to be true, I really did. I began talking to the bishop and attending Church, and even prayed for God to restore my testimony about JS. It was all emotional! What happened? God began once again to show me what He had already showed me: Mormonism is a false religion and that JS was not a prophet of God. God had already led me to Isaiah 43:10 and to the beautiful truth about grace. You see, once you are in His hand, NOTHING can snatch you out of it–not even my own emotions and desire for wanting something to be true that just isn’t could accomplish that. That’s my testimony of God’s saving grace in life AGAIN. Naturally, Mormons won’t accept it, but that’s okay because all any of us can do is testify to the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and His grace. The Mormons don’t have to accept it, and they can keep on trying to make themselves right with God by trying to live the law, the purpose of which Jesus fulfilled. I know that the Holy Spirit is doing amazing things in converting Mormons to true Christianity. I am encouraged by the stories of those on this blog who have responded to God’s grace in their lives and left Mormonism. We have heard the voices of the so-called Mormon prophets, and have recognized their message as one at odds with the Word of God. Anyone who leads another away from the Bible has to be examined; and anyone who teaches that God was once a man and that we can become gods is preaching a different gospel. So, press on Christians! We are engaging in the ministry of God’s grace!
Cluffy,
A bit late. But a couple of thoughts.
Not much time to expand, so they’ll be brief…
If we have it your way, we can shut up, but so must you. We would never be able to converse on such topics. Consequently, you’d go on deceiving (intentionally or not) millions of people, and we’d have to hold our toungues. Sound fair?
And this response really demonstrates the point I was trying to make. You find it OK to distort what we believe all the while crying that we don’t say what you want us to say. Sound fair?
Repent and believe. Do you want to discuss this more? I think we’ve been over it a few times, but send me an email at [email protected] if you want me to explain it some more (don’t want to take up too much room here on the topic). What I will say here is that do you really think that’s all there is to it?
And on this point, you mention that belief is shown by one’s fruit. Do you need us to show you the fruit of Christian’s world wide or the power God has to change lives? I described a couple of my old pastors prior lives to demonstrate this, along with some ideas from scripture. Do you want to comment some more on that? See, you kind of contradict yourself in your response… Most Mormons have done the same, but its a party first sort of thing. Are you saying Mormons party first? I think not. And the example is extreme and does not touch on the Christians who have been true to their faith since day one. They exist, but you don’t care to see it.
None of that proves Christianity. But it is important for you to understand these things when you offer the criticisms you do. If you want to talk about Christianity, get it right. Isn’t that what you say to us?
And that is my biggest problem with your method of defense. All I ask is that hold yourself to the same standard you give to others. Otherwise, you are hypocrites.
God’s primary revelation to man was His Son Jesus Christ. When Jesus walked this earth, He was God incarnate. Not a created being of an exalted man and one of his goddess wives. What an insult to our God. God revealed Himself through His living Word which became flesh and dwelt among us. Died on a cross and shed His blood that all of us who place our trust and faith in Him shall have eternal life. This is revelation. Revelation is not what a former treasure hunter with a magic rock tells us it is. God’s revealed written Word, the Bible, is our guide that speaks to us the mind of God through His Holy Spirit. God gave us the gifts of the Holy Spirit to discern what is revealed in His Word and to guide us in understanding true from false revelatory and other spiritual manifestations. There is a definite spiritual battle going on between the forces of God and the spirit of the antichirst. People have a clear choice to make as to whether or not they are going to follow God, as He is revealed in His written Word, or if they are going to choose the spirit of the antichrist. To follow a man who had his own written word and his own god is to follow the spirit of the antichrist. It’s really that simple.
Winter mentioned the reporter’s question to Kimball, “Does God speak to you? And, if so, how?” I’m not sure what Kimball’s response about an unbroken communication from JS to himself has to do with anything. If you’re trying to prove that God speaks to his prophets, okay but God speaks to me too. I don’t need a prophet to do that for me. Jesus is the High Priest and I need no intermediary between me and Him. What’s interesting is that people keep referencing Amos 3:7, but then lets couple that with Heb 1:1-2 which is the difference between the OT and the NT. If Mormons want to live under the Law, go ahead, but that’s not Christianity, restored or otherwise.
To paraphrase winter, I can personally witness the reality of current, on going revelation in Foothills Community Church. Now what are we going to do about that?
FOF said: “How about the Proclamation to the World on the Family? This declaration was published just before the obvious accelaration and push in the gay-marriage movement which has swept our society.”
But it was published just after a federal law was passed in America concerning domestic abuse. Not too prophetic in my eyes, and I was still Mormon at that time.
“He often spoke in parables so only those who were humble and thirsty for truth would understand.” Do people today use analogies so that only the humble and thirsty can understand? No, we use analogies to make it easier for others to understand what we’re saying. When Jesus relayed the parable of the vinemaster in Matt 21: 33-45, he admonished the Pharisees for not understanding what he was saying, and then laid it out for them anyway. This is one of the rubs regarding Mormonism and Christianity. Mormons think you have to do something first, you have to please God first, THEN He will show you and save you. But the truth is, God made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in our sins (Eph 2:4-7).