The following quotes are from the LDS Church’s Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual published by the Church Educational System, copyright 1976.
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In the relationships of husband and wife and parent and child we begin to approach the divine calling of godhood. Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children. (page 1)
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God Became God by Obedience to Law
It was late afternoon as we sat in my office, but I felt the time had been well spent. He sat silently now, obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing…Finally he spoke…
[Student:] “Then what you are saying is that God became God by obedience to the gospel program, which culminates in eternal marriage.”
[Teacher:] “Yes. Do you realize the implications of this doctrine as far as you are concerned?”
[Student:] “I think so. If God became God by obedience to all of the gospel law with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage, then that’s the only way I can become a god.”
[Teacher:] “Right.”
(page 4)
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The Law Which Brings Eternal Life Is Temple Marriage
Law requires that certain objectives be accomplished if we are to become like God. Look at the chart at the bottom of this page.
Why is each step necessary in the acquisition of godlike attributes? Under each step list the thing gained which is necessary for godhood.
[The accompanying diagram is in the form of 8 steps: Birth, Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, Temple Marriage, Resurrection, Eternal Life.] (page 5)
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…God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality. The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to this as “the great secret.”…The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles, ‘for he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.” (page 129)
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GOD WAS ONCE A MORTAL MAN
He Lived on an Earth like Our Own
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. (page 129)
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He Experienced Conditions Similar to Our Own and Advanced Step by Step
Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. (page 129)
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…even as the infant son of our earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages of aeons, of evolving into a God. (page 130)
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So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation. (page 131)
This obviously states that certain acts are indeed required to become a god, and it is also clear that some portion of the church felt strongly enough in this position to create a manual for it.
I am curious, though, is this manual published 32 years ago still followed today? If not, why not?
If so, can you still say that you are not a works based system given the actual requirements of certain acts to achieve godhood? Does this also mean that someone who is not married cannopt become a god, in spite of Paul's warning that marriage should only be for those who cannot "help" themselves?
Add to MichaelP's post the crummy example that Jesus gave us: if HE was married, HE kept it very well hidden (and wouldn't that be a revelation glitch on Heavenly Father's part, unless you want to go down the "many precious parts taken away….." conspiracy trail. The whole idea of earthly marriage playing this kind of role , with this kind of center stage importance flies in the face of the REAL DEAL: marriage to the LAMB of GOD, a marriage that's EQUALLY good for earthly married, single, widowed, divorced, etc. Once again the REAL DEAL is traded down for the "restored". Don't go for "curtain #2" people, God did not mumble in the bible, what HE offers in Christ is ENOUGH. Praise GOD for HIS generous wedding offer: HIMSELF.
I thank God each and every day that I am worshipping the true God that has *always* been God and not a resurrected man that "became or progessed" to become God…… How awesome it is to know that MY God did not progress to the point of becoming a "god" and is one of many "gods" but is the only true and living God and before Him never was there any and after Him there will be none…..This manual, which I have read and took a class on "celestial marriage" prior to getting married myself in the LDS temple…. teaches clearly that the mormon god was not god at one point but "became" or progresse to become god……
I pray daily that many LDS would come to know the real God, who is so awesome and unsearchable are His ways!
Praising Him!
gloria
MichaelP, my copy of Achieving a Celestial Marriage is the 1976 edition. I know there was also a 1992 edition which remained in use and available from the LDS Distribution Center for many years. The manual is no longer in print. I'm sorry that I don't know the year that use of the manual was discontinued. You ask a good question: Are the teachings found in that manual still true (according to Mormonism) today? I hope some Latter-day Saints weigh in on that.
Amen Germit! I'll take curtain #1. I don't know why anyone would want to be a god anyway. I think it's kind of funny that important people in the LDS faith have been recorded to say that they didn't think the religion taught that men can become Gods (Gordon B. Hinkley) yet there's all sorts of literature published by the Mormon church and even manuals about it! Either old Gordon was way under-studied about his own religious beliefs, or he was trying to cover it up–something about a teaching that the God we serve is really nothing special, just a glorified man–does horrible things for the conversion rates I'm sure. I think if people really knew a lot of this stuff they too would choose curtain #1…sadly too many people fall for the warm, fuzzy, family oriented church that bears a striking resemblance to Christianity. I'm sad for these people…
Here is my after-life advice to Mormons: If your spirit-children try to worship you in the afterlife, spank them and instruct them to instead worship the one true God!
I don't think that most LDS are so bent towards narcissism that they spend much time thinking about one day being a god/godess….that doesn't excuse the weird theology; I keep in mind that they are told/taught what to believe and expect, so I lay some of this at the feet of the MORG, granted we all choose whom we trust.
Hinckley didn't exactly say that they flat out DIDN"T teach eternal progression, his comment was more like a head scratching….."well…..I don't know if we say all that much about that…..we don't really get into it that much……blah,blah……" So it was more like a non-statement. He downplayed it, the kind of thing politicians and salespeople do all the time.
I don't think that most LDS are so bent towards narcissism that they spend much time thinking about one day being a god/godess….that doesn't excuse the weird theology; I keep in mind that they are told/taught what to believe and expect, so I lay some of this at the feet of the MORG, granted we all choose whom we trust.
Hinckley didn't exactly say that they flat out DIDN"T teach eternal progression, his comment was more like a head scratching….."well…..I don't know if we say all that much about that…..we don't really get into it that much……blah,blah……" So it was more like a non-statement. He downplayed it, the kind of thing politicians and salespeople do all the time.
Thank you for the post Sharon,
While the thought of becoming a god is wrong on so many levels, one thing strikes me as inconsistent within LDS teaching. Quoting from the post, "So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring."
My question is how does this square with the Mormon Belief that , "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29). So how can you become the parent of something that cannot be created?
No worries at all. I too am curious their take on the issue.
Ralph,
Thank you for the answer, let me make sure that I have this straight. In LDS theology, God created the spirit and somebody/something else put the intelligence in? I hope that you can understand how this is a redefinition of creation. Changing it from creation out of nothing into organising and building out of pre-existing material. This doctrine would change not only the essence but also the nature of God. No longer do we have the omnipotent, omniscient, infinite God of the Old and New Testaments. We would no longer be the creatures of a sovereign God. We would be the product of a cosmic mystery.
If you can bear with me and answer another question from the LDS perspective. If celestial marriage is so important to a persons ultimate salvation why is it not in the Old and New Testaments? As Germit pointed out above Jesus was not married. There is no mention of a temple marriage ceremony in Leviticus or anywhere else that I can find. It seems logical that there should be some mention of this requirement.
Gundek,
That's the question, we do not know how these intelligences were organised into spirits. But just to clarify one thing, its the 'intelligence' that was not created, not the spirit. So maybe (my thoughts not doctrine) the spirit is formed somehow and this thing called 'intelligence' is placed into it – so the uncreated intelligence is then in the created spirit body. That's one possibility of how you can become the parent of something that cannot be created.
Think of children born in this life – the parents create the phtsical body and God puts the spirit into it. So the parents do not create the spirit, it's just put in. So the process is similar.
Just remember – my thoughts not LDS doctrine.
So when your child calls you father/daddy/etc are you going to spank them because they gave you the reverence and not your father?
No surprise that this was the next topic in line! For if one cannot fathom that they are the literal children of God, it only follows that they would not believe what their Father has in store for them. I can assure all here that Mormons are not waking up each day trying to become a god. The command to "repent all ye ends of the earth" is sufficient for the day.
Nevertheless, we rejoice in the great plan of our God laid from the foundation of the world and the Savior who made it all possible. If I am to "become a God" someday, I will certainly remember why it is that the Lord is reluctant to reveal His mysteries to such an unbelieving world.
If I have children in the afterlife (which I don't foresee although I'm open to the possibility of it happening in a new dynamic of existence that God introduces) I wouldn't have any problem with them calling me Dad. But even my children here on earth can call me Dad without worshiping me as a God.
Ralph, are you comfortable with the prospect of subjects under you crying out,
"Oh, Heavenly Father Ralph, Almighty God, Maker of Our Particular Heaven and Earth, Alpha and Omega, you alone are holy, you alone are wise, you alone are the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of our God Ralph! How unsearchable are Ralph's judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Ralph, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to Ralph that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."
You OK with that, Ralph?
But DOF, do you not think that the church produced a manual that clearly stated things that must be done to achieve godhood suggests that such a progression is, or at least was, a big deal in the church? I am sure this was not the only source giving progression such credence, too. The question is, and I think you answered part of it, is does the church still encourage you to become gods? Do they still teach you this? If not, why not?
I am still curious about marriage's role in acheiving godhood?
If I have children in the afterlife (which I don't foresee although I'm open to the possibility of it happening in a new dynamic of existence that God introduces) I wouldn't have any problem with them calling me Dad. But even my children here on earth can call me Dad without worshiping me as a God.
Ralph, are you comfortable with the prospect of subjects under you crying out,
"Oh, Heavenly Father Ralph, Almighty God, Alpha and Omega, you alone are holy, you alone are wise, you alone are the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, to you be honor and glory forever and ever. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of our God Ralph! How unsearchable are Ralph's judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Ralph, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to Ralph that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."
You OK with that, Ralph?
If I have children in the afterlife (which I don't foresee although I'm open to the possibility of it happening in a new dynamic of existence that God introduces) I wouldn't have any problem with them calling me Dad. But even my children here on earth can call me Dad without worshiping me as a God.
Ralph, are you comfortable with the prospect of subjects under you crying out,
"Oh, Heavenly Father Ralph, Almighty God, Alpha and Omega, you alone are holy, you alone are wise, you alone are the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, to you be honor and glory forever and ever. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of our God Ralph! How unsearchable are Ralph's judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Ralph, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to Ralph that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Holy Holy Holy, is the Lord Ralph Almighty, who was and is and is to come?"
You OK with that, Ralph?
I readily believe that 'becoming a god ' is not high on your list or even that this is not TODAY a prominent part of LDS theology. It sure seemed to command more of Joseph's attention, and that to me is significant. Maybe that's too radically different for today's prophet, I don't kow why what your founder thot major would fall into the periphery. You might want to rethink your statement about God revealing or not revealing HIS mysteries. Which of HIS mysteries did HE keep hidden during the NT period ?? You need to find a more sovereign God. Blessings, GERmIT
If I have children in the afterlife (which I don't foresee although I'm open to the possibility of it happening in a new dynamic of existence that God introduces) I wouldn't have any problem with them calling me Dad. But even my children here on earth can call me Dad without worshiping me as a God.
Ralph, are you comfortable with the prospect of subjects under you crying out,
"Oh, Heavenly Father Ralph, Almighty God, Alpha and Omega, you alone are holy, you alone are wise, you alone are the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, to you be honor and glory forever and ever. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of our God Ralph! How unsearchable are Ralph's judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Ralph, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to Ralph that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Holy Holy Holy, is the Lord Ralph Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
You OK with that, Ralph?
Gloria,
What wonderful words. I am not sure it can be stated any better. How wonderful it is that we have a God who has always been and will always be God. How wonderful that he is the only God, and how awedome that he loves us as his children. How wonderful that such a powerful being can humble himself to save us, and how humbling it is to us to know what our creator has done so that we might be with him.
As to the manual, I find it interesting that up to this point there is no talk about it from Mormons. The only discussion we have seen is defending the idea, however broadly or loosely, that progression exists, but it is not priority. I'd really like to know why they put it in a manual in marriage as a requirement to become a god if the progression is not a priority? It seems they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. Do you have any insights?
And welcome, and God Bless!
Alas, what we have here from the Mormon side of things is evidence of the condition of man which is rooted in autonomy and the desire to be a god. It's based on a false premise regarding man's purpose. DOF, your claim that we can't understand that we are literal children of God is really misrepresenting what we believe, and this misrepresentation is the cause of your perceptions. I think you are bringing this in from the other thread that addressed the topic of becoming sons of God.
Grace and Peace!
Gloria: the thot hit me as I read your post: you HAVE experienced something of a "progression" with your GOD, not that HE changed, but your understanding of HIM certainly did and does; what a JI-NORMOUS upgrade; you must feel like it's Christmas come early and often. Blessings on your, and my, every discovery of the real Jesus and Heavenly Father. GERMIT
The LDS say that the book of Mormon is the most correct book of all books and yet there is no mention of marriage in the temple or of eternal families or of eternal progression or temple endowment, etc. Why is that? "If" the LDS truly believe the BofM is ithe most correct book why does this book not teach or mention these LDS doctrines? The LDS teach that the temple ceiling is the "crowning" ordinance and yet the "most correct book" doesn't even mention it? As a christian, the Bible is my authority and the truths of our faith are found and documented in God's Word. Authentic Christians will not hold as "truths" teachings that are not found in the Word of God. I am thankful that God's word endures forever. I was always confused by conflictng teachings in the LDS church — their prophets contradict each other. How wonderful to know that God is not a God of confusion.
Praising Him,
gloria
Michael,
The LDS try to distance themselves from doctrines that are a bit controversial… when you approach them on these doctrines they will tell you that they focus on the doctrines of "faith repentence and baptism" and that these other doctrines are not of primal importance. That didn't work for me while I was LDS… because the "nature" of God is pretty important to understand! It should be a primal teaching. The LDS will say that Christians do not know about the person of God or Jesus…. and yet when you approach them about their doctrines on "who" their god is they do get a bit uncomfortable talking about the doctrine of eternal progression.
If these are the glorious truths restored by J. Smith why are the LDS not joy filled about the prospect of eternal progression???
Praising Him,
gloria
Thank you germit for your good wishes! All I can say is " I can see, I can see… I my chains are gone and I can see"! I praise God each day that He took me out of the deception…. 1 yr ago God did a 360 degree change in my life.. I was teaching Relief Society, attending the temple , etc and God revealed himself thru the Word…. I completed a 2 yr study of the Bible and when I finished the bible, I resigned from the LDS church. God did the work. My heart breaks for the LDS … they are truly worshipping a false jesus and false god… my heart's prayer is that they may come to know the JOY we have in Jesus and be released from the bonds they are under. Also I thank God for delivering my 10 kids out of the cult too! A miracle for sure! Now we are waiting for Him to complete the work He has begun on my husband. 48 yrs of brainwashing is not easy to dismantle overnight but God is able!! ~ gloria ~
Wow – that is something I would be uncomfortable with! How prideful of anyone to think they are worthy of worship…. how self righteous….
When I was LDS I was sooo uncomfortable with the idea of being a 'goddess' .. the very thought made me cringe…. I never met any LDS that were JOY fillled at the idea of being a god or goddess… and the women in particular detested the idea of sharing their husbands with other women…. in the words of one mormon woman I know " that is hell" not heaven!
Praising God I OUT!
gloria
in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.
Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.
On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men
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The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-
REVELATION
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All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.
Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation."
The requirements given do not line up with this vision and do not line up with the teaching that you MUST BE MARRIED. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead Or getting married in the temple? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?
We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.
If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)
Cont,
These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.
The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.
Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)
Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.
We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:
1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.
v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.
If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.
Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b
180 Degree change :-p and praise be to God Gloria.
I think the doctrine of man becoming a god is on it's way out in the Mormon Church. It is certainly being downplayed and pushed aside, much like polygamy. It is a topic that the Mormon leadership does not want to address (G.B. Hinckley – "I don't know that we teach it.") and their membership does not want to address ( DOF on this blog "I can assure all here that Mormons are not waking up each day trying to become a god. The command to "repent all ye ends of the earth" is sufficient for the day.") Sometime, in the not so distant future, this doctrine will disappear completely from the consciousness of modern day Mormons and vanish quietly down the memory hole where it will live with together with Adam-God, deleted segments of the Temple Rituals, the eternal commandment of polygamy, and the ban on black priesthood. LDS doctrine is forever radically changing. I would not be surprised if in 30 – 40 years the entire system of secret temple rituals was done away with and the temples are opened up for all – the leadership changes that much and that fast. I can't remember exactly where it was, but the LDS church recently quietly removed references to "becoming a god" from one of their manuals for new converts, temple preparation, or something. As this belief fades the necessity for temple rituals will also fade and I think eventually be done away with or radically changed.
Mobaby: I think you are very much onto something with your post; I'm still new at understanding the Mormon perspective and culture but what you're saying rings true with me: for very PRAGMATIC reasons I think what you're saying will happen, the "becoming a God" thing is a crummy evangelistic intro. And the secret temple stuff also has outlived its usefullness. I'd say they will BOTH be dropkicked quietly as 'new' revelation is given and the LDS shift into something else that attracts more potential converts. Wtih our culture pushing globalism, ecumanism, and tolerance, these weird 'distinctives' will become vestigal parts to a Mormon past. That's my take. And of course, history (King Follett, etc) will quietly get rewritten and updated. GERMIT
Sharon and others: Sharon asked
"Are the teachings found in that manual still true (according to Mormonism) today ?"
Is this a fair question, in response to that question:
"Does it not depend on what God tells THIS YEAR's prophet and generation through revelation ??" I'm not trying to make the LDS seem more flexible than they really are, so I'm wondering aloud if my question is accurate or not , according to the LDS outlook.
Gloria,
As a person who has family and friends who are Mormons I try to understand their beliefs but the inconsistencies and contradictions in Mormon doctrines of progression and creation (among others) baffle me. It seems narcissistic to assume that the creature can in any way approach the Creator without the Mediator and the indwelling of the Spirit.
With the LDS view of becoming a god, I wonder how a Mormon would answer the first question the the Westminster Shorter Catechism? What is the chief end of man? Somehow I doubt the answer would be "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever." (1 Cor10:31; Rom 11:36; Psalm 73:25-28).
Thank God for the righteousness of Christ, no hope without it.
Gundek:
you wrote
It seems narcissistic to assume that the creature can in any way approach the Creator without the Mediator and the indwelling of the Spirit.
Actually, as far as I know the LDS very much believe that they need a Mediator and of course are very keen on the indwelling of the H.S. One huge difference (among many) is that they believe (though this apparantly isn't brought up much) that with this divine help, they can match and perhaps outstrip their parents (Father/Mother). This idea we see as absurd and heresy. For them, they see that as part of salvific promises (provided the right amount of obedience is there). I can only do a short post on this system, but I'm pretty sure there is an anthropomorphic principle (towards God) that is a key culprit in all this: trying to make what is true for human situations/parenthood, true for God and HIS children. WRONGO.
Their silence here is interesting. Maybe there could be many reasons for it, but it is interesting nonetheless.
I agree that the nature of God is pretty important, perhaps the most important thing. From some of the responses here, it seems that they are more concerned with following him, which to be fair, is a noble thing, but who he is often gets pushed to the side.
I am thankful you allowed God to work in your heart.
I have said this before at Mormon Coffee, and it is likely a very long way off, but sometimes I think in the future of Mormonism lies evangelican Christianiaty because of the exact trend you guys point out. They really do seem to abandon doctrine when it gets them out of favor, and a logical trajecgtory is to become essentially evangelicals.
I may be crazy with this idea, but I think it makes some sense…
thanks for the correction Germit,
You are correct I, and I should have said, "It seems narcissistic to assume that the creature can in any way approach the [power of the] Creator…"
I am not sure that I have ever heard of a Mormon speaking of Christ as a Mediator with God or for that matter the need of a mediator. But this seems to add to the inconsistencies in their doctrine. What is His role for the Mormon as a mediator? Does He function as the Prophet, Priest, and King? If so what is the need of the LDS priesthood and system of prophets? Or is Christ seen as the perfect sacrifice an atonement for our sins bringing an end to the need for temple worship?
Interesting, I would like to learn more about the LDS view on the need for a mediator and how this works with their view of the priesthood and the role of prophets.
As we can see from history, the LDS Church may slowly drop and let die some of the more blasphemous/not socially acceptable teachings such as mere men can become gods and create and rule their own planets and be worshiped by their spirit children. However, they are always preaching works righteousness – that men must work their way to salvation. Salvation by grace through faith in the crucified and resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life. Trying to work your way there shows that you are depending on your own merits to gain a right standing before God and the Bible is clear, this is not the path to the Heavenly Father. I am afraid that even if the Mormon leaders give up more and more of the doctrines that are eons away from Christianity, they will retain this one spiritually deadly doctrine.
Gloria – It is great to hear how God has worked in your life. I pray that individuals in the LDS Church eyes would be opened to the truth of Jesus and God – and seeing someone like yourself on here shows that it does happen. I know that many Mormons when they find out the truth about Joseph Smith and the history of the LDS Chruch they think ALL of Christianity is based on lies and deception – and it just isn't so. There is the truth of Jesus Christ that has been passed on faithfully from generation to generation and He does transform lives. Thank you for sharing your inspiring story!
Touché. Mormons seem to not like to think about it, but if we are really to become "like Heavenly Father", then receiving such praise is a logical implication Mormons would be wise to consider. But maybe that does not seem to bother Mormons quite so much, after all, they do sing "Praise to the Man", after all. Which would be more offensive to a Mormon (and I'm asking this sincerely), that one can be the equal of God, or that one can be the equal of Joseph Smith, or Thomas S. Monson?
Perhaps Mormons have a ready answer. If so, let us hear it. I would be grateful to be corrected. It does me no good to misrepresent y'all's religion. As it is now, with a couple of comments only from Ralph and DOF, the silence is deafening.
Nate
Germit,
Your statement "One huge difference (among many) is that they believe (though this apparantly isn't brought up much) that with this divine help, they can match and perhaps outstrip their parents (Father/Mother)." is totally incorrect. If you go through all of the LDS lesson manuals and all of the posts by LDS on Mormon Coffee, we teach and believe that we will never 'match' nor 'outstrip' Heavenly Father. We will always be 'subservient' (For want of a better word) to Him.
Gundek,
You misunderstood a small part, maybe it was my example or writing. God created the spirit and placed the intelligence in it – no one else did.
There are some possible hints at Celestial marriage in the Bible – one of them is Job. He was given twice what he had before the trials except family-wise. He only received one wife and the same number of children as he previously had. We LDS teach that this is double what his previous family was because his other children were 'waiting; in the Celestial Kingdom for him. I can't remember what happened about his previous wife, but still, he had 2 wives and double the children if we LDS are correct – indicating double of everything that he had before the trials.
There are other places in the Bible, if you can get your hands on the 'Gospel Principles' book it has all the references and LDS explanations in it. ALso, if you read the first 2 chapters (I think) they explain the topic of this thread about our relationship with God and how we believe that we can become like Him.
…Thus setting up a heirarchy, Ralph, or is that wrong?
I guess so – just as there is a heirarchy of your son, you, your father, your father's father, his father and so on.
But that is my perspective and its from a mortal finite mind. It may not be either. But we will never be equal to or better/greater than Heavenly Father, as Germit insinuated.
But think this through Ralph. I have never heard any Mormon say that there was a beginning god so to speak, or a supreme god. If there is a heirarchy, there must be one. There is no other option, unless you can become greater than the others, then you can have some back and forth. Actually, that would fit better with the logic so far presented about pre-existing and eternal spririts that become human.
But alas…
Maybe the silence is because most of us are only here to correct the wrong things said about our church because there is no real discussion – you Evs have your mindset and we LDS have ours.
As far as I can see I agree with most of the comments in the above article so why comment unless someone else makes a false statement or asks a sincere/real question.
Fair enough, Ralph. So then our assumption about specific acts required for ultimate salvation is true then, and that it is not about faith, is true, too.
I know somehow you will say that the above is not true, and that is also fair. But if you are granting that marriage is required to become a god, then it cannot be all about faith for getting married, even if done under faith in the future, is a specific act.
Praise God for your story, Gloria. I am new to this blog and am not familiar with your background. Do you have a blog where you talk more about your exit from the church? I am the same age as your husband and wonder if I can offer anything; I was 47 when I received God's grace.
A point I do not want to get lost from this post is that marriage is required for ultimate salvation, ie achieving godhood. Not only does this demonstrate a reliance on works, it brings up several questions about marriage in general. For example, what happens when an eternally married couple divorces, or one of the spouses cheats on another, gauks at another outside of marriage? What if one leaves the church, or just stumbles really badly, enough to individually take one out of the good graces of the church? Does this negate the chances of both becoming a god?
Eternal marriages can happen at a very young age, with a lot of life together to come. While I grant that there is likely some form of forgiveness, an eternal marriage, from what I understand links the spouses for eternity. So, what happens if something really bad goes wrong to but one spouse?