Every now and then I hear a frustrated Mormon express something like this:
“Why are other churches so threatened by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Other churches even have classes against us! My Church would never do that. My Church never says anything negative about other churches.”
Apart from the fact that the LDS Church has and continues to say negative things about non-Mormon churches and beliefs, I’d like to attempt to explain, via a sort of parable, the Christian churches’ manifest evaluation of Mormonism (and other faith systems).
The Parable of the Mushroom Societies
A certain group of people loved mushrooms. They gathered together and formed a Mushroom Society. They frequently went into the woods, two by two, to hunt and gather mushrooms, later preparing meals and enjoying them together. Because some mushrooms were edible and some toxic, the Mushroom Society took great care to study mushroom characteristics, to learn to identify different species, and to understand how to prepare mushrooms for safe consumption. The society grew and flourished.
Across the county another mushroom enthusiast decided to form a similar mushroom society of his own. He talked to many people and invited them to join him in the new society he had founded: The One True Mushroom Society. While this society enjoyed mushrooms, there was only one variety they found acceptable – the cultivated white button mushroom. All other mushroom varieties were labeled bad. The One True Mushroom Society believed and taught that all other mushroom varieties were, in fact, toxic. Therefore, the only mushrooms the members of the society needed to know about were the white button mushrooms. So they grew their own mushrooms and took turns harvesting and eating them. They enjoyed their mushrooms, but they never learned anything about the hundreds of other edible mushrooms that were available – and delicious.
This simple parable should not be taken too far. I’m trying to demonstrate one basic fact: According to the LDS Church, all other churches are wrong, their creeds are an abomination, and their professors are corrupt. If this is the message (and it is), why should any time be spent educating Mormons about other faiths? Since Mormon leaders insist that the LDS Church is the “One True Church,” Mormons are expected to just believe it; what other churches teach for truth doesn’t really matter; it is enough for Latter-day Saints to be taught to group all outsiders into one big classification labeled “false.”
In contrast to the LDS Church’s position that all other churches are wrong, most non-Mormon churches recognize and acknowledge that God is present and active in multiple denominations and churches. Yet some organizations, like Mormonism, deviate so far from the fundamental essentials of the historic Christian faith that they lead people away from Christ rather than toward Him. Therefore, one reason it is important for Christians to learn about different denominations, different doctrinal systems, and different faiths is so that they are better equipped to discern the true from the false, and the (theologically) good from the bad.
Thank you for tolerating my parable. I hope it has shed some light on a subject that generally thrives in the dark.
Sharon,
You forgot the mushroom societies that tell people that any and all vegetation, mushrooms included, are OK to eat. All are equally nutritious and equally tasty. Poisonous plants and mushrooms simply do not exist. They are invented by mean and hateful individuals that merely want to scare people. And yes, Mormonism has said negative things about other religions. Not that I mind, I just wish the saints in these latter days would have thicker skin.
Sharon,
While the LDS Church does state that “other churches are wrong” in the sense that they do not have the fullness of the truth this statement is by no means unique. In fact, practically every religion, sect, and denomination claims that it is true ergo “other churches are wrong” to some degree.
As a point of fact, evangelical churches can hardly make the exclusive claim that they are of “the historic Christian faith” given that their own theology has deviated so far from Apostolic Christianity (i.e. evangelical theology has abandoned many of the foundational doctrines of traditional Christianity {Roman Catholic Church} such as priesthood authority, ordinances, and covenants, priesthood structure and government etc.). Thus your argument against the LDS Church having deviated is somewhat hollow.
In contrast to what you say, the LDS Church does indeed state that other Christian Churches (and most other religions for that matter) contain a considerable measure of the truth (just not the whole of it) and acknowledge that “God is present and active in multiple denominations and churches”. The LDS Church teaches that the spirit of God is present wherever truth is taught. The LDS Church has always taught religious tolerance and respect for the religious opinions of others as proclaimed in the 11th Article of Faith:
“We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may”
In contrast to the LDS Church, fundamentalist evangelical theology has a rather pernicious strain of intolerance towards other faiths. This intolerance is frequently directed against the Roman Catholic Church, Judaism, and Islam. Mormonism for some reason is especially galling to evangelicals and hence websites (such as this one) dedicated to the reviling, mockery and demonization of the LDS Church.
In contrast, the LDS Church does not hold classes teaching how evil the Southern Baptists are or how demonic the Pentecostals are. The LDS Church does not disseminate vicious videos on “The Maze of Lutheranism”. Members of the LDS Church do not stand in front of the Assemblies Of God Church with placards and bullhorns proclaiming that evangelicals are all going to hell. Yet, this type of vicious behavior and much worse is constantly being directed against the LDS Church by various evangelical groups which claim to be “Christian” and vent such vile behavior all in the name of Christ.
Not too worry too much, as Mormons we are used to this type of religious persecution and we certainly have thick skins. Mormons have been persecuted by religious bigots since the very beginning almost two hundred years ago. It is a part of our heritage and a badge which we wear with honor. For the most part this persecution takes the form of verbal assaults which can be easily dismissed. However, sometimes it take a more ugly and violent form such as when my wife’s chapel was torched and burnt to the ground by some rabid Mormon “critic”.
Sharon, as always, you continue to misrepresent LDS doctrine, practice and culture.
SteveH,
You might want to take a look at what Joseph Smith had to say about the Churches. As a matter of fact, he singled out my particular denomination for condemnation:
Joseph Smith History 1:19 – “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me?”
According to Joseph Smith, the Presbyterians, who he singled out as wrong, are part of the ADVERSARY’S (in other words Satan’s) kingdom – our creeds are an abomination and the professors of our faith are ALL corrupt.
I don’t see much wiggle room in what Joseph Smith said about our beliefs. Seems crystal clear that no classes are necessary to teach about how corrupt and Satanic our Churches are – it’s right in your scriptures. Do you ever read this passage in Church? Would that constitute teaching what it says? Seems that any Mormon reading these passages would think “stay away from them, they don’t have the knowledge of God’s truth like we do. As a matter of fact, they’re part of the Adversary’s kingdom.”
the seems to be a case of the LDS ready to play whichever card suits the need of the moment
is the need to separate themselves from other “christian groups” in order to showcase the superlatives of their message, their gospel ?? well then, time to play the “apostasy card” and kindly show people that their system of belief is horribly deficient to save completely, and has been deficient for thousands of years. of course, it’s wise to sweeten the bitter pill (who likes being known as an apostate ??) by telling folks that (and this is the other card) surely they have “some measure of the truth”. That’s pretty cool, not like getting an “F” on the test…..more like “extra work needed…..like an ‘incomplete” …..
so there you go: you’ve got “your system is totally incapable of saving……” to use when trying to boost UP the LDS plan
and “you’ve got SOME of the truth….” when it’s “bridge building time”, and we’re having an ecumenical moment with friends.
pretty slick, and for those who don’t look closely at the mushroom before swallowing (and many don’t) this is all the explanation needed
examining all my mushrooms, thank you
GERMIT
PS: sharon was very gracious in giving the LDS an edible mushroom…..her analogy could have been even edgier.
PS to SteveH and my other LDS friends: holding onto the ONE TRUE Mushroom thing and selling yourselves as more tolerant than most (esp. the ev’s ) is the most disingenuous track I’ve seen in my life…. I can handle the “one true church” thing…. but just ALLOWING others to practice their religion (which is good) is the mildest from of tolerance out there….big deal…..that you don’t violently persecute others is also good….but again, big deal, there are many more subtle ways to be intolerant..+
SteveH,
I fail to understand your continuous reference to “priesthood authority” and the Roman Catholic Church. First this does not seem to be historical in that the office of episkopos (overseer) was single authoritative officeholder during much of the second century they were supported by a council of presbuteros (elders). It was not until the Cyprian’s time (mid third century) that we see the distinction made between the episkopos (overseer) and the presbuteros (elder), with the presbuteros dropping the role as elder and assuming the role as priest and episkopos becoming the Bishop. At this time the presbuteros began to assume the duties of administering the Eucharist witch I am sure you know the Roman Catholic Church holds to be a continuing sacrifice of the actual body of Christ. In fact the role of the priest in the Church of Rome is centered on the Eucharist.
Seeing that there is no connection with the Mormon view of the role of a priest and the Roman Catholic view, I fail to understand your implied connection.
SteveH, I have no patience for LDS complaining about persecution these days. Now, certainly in the early days of Mormonism, there was persecution. I’m willing to agree with that. But today? No. Disagreement, even vigorous disagreement, is not persecution. I also have no patience when my fellow Christians complain about persecution in this country. Such complaining makes a mockery of the true persecution that Christians around the world are experiencing, right at this moment. Beatings, torture, electric shocks, hanging, stoning, imprisonment—these things are going on right at this moment not only in Muslim and Communist lands, but in other places. So please, unless Mormons are experiencing something along the lines described in Hebrews 11:35-38, they are not experiencing persecution. Sorry, but the days of true Mormon persecution are long gone. Time to turn in that victim badge.
Megan:
also have no patience when my fellow Christians complain about persecution in this country. Such complaining makes a mockery of the true persecution that Christians around the world are experiencing, right at this moment. Beatings, torture, electric shocks, hanging, stoning, imprisonment—these things are going on right at this moment not only in Muslim and Communist lands, but in other places.
AMEN to that….the FREEDOM to debate about things openly, without physical retribution, is a sign of (FOR NOW) a great country, a great system.
We don’t need more “waaaa-waaaaa victims” of any kind, preach it sistah……..
GERMIT
Hey again Steve H, I re-read your comment and I had originally missed the part about your wife’s chapel being burned down. Yes, that does sound like persecution. But what I really meant was, there is no wide-spread, systematic persecution against Mormons that involves injury to their bodies or hazards to their lives. It’s night and day for us in this country compared to a Christian (or, a Mormon) living in, say, Saudi Arabia. I get tired of the whining from Mormons about people with bullhorns outside of their temples, etc. and their label of it as persecution. Or, the fact that they would call Christian books/courses criticizing Mormon theology as persecution. It’s laughable. Also, there is a real double standard when it comes to Mormons presenting their faith. For example, do I consider it to be persecution to me when the LDS missionaries come to my door? No, not at all. They are attacking, or at least questioning my beliefs, however, by presenting something contrary to what I believe. They believe they have the truth, though, and they have the right to present what they perceive to be the truth. Similarly, I think that my side has the truth, and we have the right to help that truth prevail by questioning Mormonism and its false beliefs.
Oh my, but I have gotten off on a tangent yet again.
Steve,
Since you want to think or LDS seem to think that if we disagree with what you believe, we hate you or you guys pull out the victim card, why dont you check out the mormon hater show blog.
That guy claims to be a TBM and he only posts lies and hate, he accused me of being a homosexual that wanted to sleep with him. Then he has written about me, Sharon, Aaron, and Bill to name a few. For a time he refused to allow me to post on his site, he
now has changed his mind, but I dont bother since he simply refuses to answer questions and only spouts lies and hate.
The thing that is really sad about his site is, LDS claim LDS are not like that, but we Christians are, yet no LDS will rebuke him or even try shutting him down, they simply ignore him and allow him to spout hate, so that tells me, when LDS sit in silence over things said or taught by people like him, they simply agree with him and let him do their dirty work, but thats just me. Rick b
Mobaby,
Check the context of your quotation. The question “else why should the powers of darkness combine against me?” is not applied to presbytarians by Joseph. Yes it comes just after mentioning them, but that reference to them is simply Joseph telling his mother that he learned “presbytarianism isn’t true.”
The whole point of this section in the JS history is to describe the persecution he experienced at the hands of those leaders of the different denominations in his community. They publically mocked a 14 year-old kid and made many unsupported claims about him and his experiences. Ya’ll are essentially saying that either such persecuation didn’t happen or that if it did, Joseph’s talking about it years later is persecution from him towards those preachers. Wow- up is down and black is white. He is supposedly doing the persecuting by pointing out persecution he suffered from others.
I think EVs live in the past on this topic (like many other topics). Examining LDS today, I think it is fairly hard to find examples of them persecuting other religions and people of other faiths. But claiming they are nasty to other religions seems to provide justification for your efforts in your “ministry.” We can convince ourselves of almost anything I suppose.
On top of never spending time in our church criticizing other religions and not persecuting others, we believe all people, no matter what their background or history, will have a chance to accept the gospel. On the other hand, most EVs I speak to believe those who don’t accept Christ according to the EV belief, including those who never had a chance, are destined to burn in hell. This is nothing short of predestinationism, with God being a huge respecter of persons. Many do in fact spend considerable time in their churches criticizing and mocking LDS beliefs. But according to you, LDS are the ones who too quickly dismiss and judge people of other faiths. Anybody see a problem here?
I truly believe that people who attack other religions have fundamental insecurities about their own religion. And I think their own theology must not provide enough spiritual and intellectual stimulation to occupy more of their time and effort.
By the way Sharon- your “article” has so many assumptions and so much conjecture that it is hard to take it seriously. For example, you say LDS “lead people away from Christ rather than toward Him.” Things like that are stated so often here, they often go unnoticed. It is so cliche’ and unsupported.
I wish we would approach more interesting topics here with more than finger pointing at their core.
fof
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE fold, and ONE shepherd.
Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of ONE heart and of ONE soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of ONE mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Eph 4:5 ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in ONE spirit, with ONE mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Eph 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Matt 7:14 Because STRAIT is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
I dunno but there seems to be many places in the Bible indicating ONE way to the Kingdom of God and that FEW people will find the strait (ie thin/narrow) gate and narrow path.
HELLO TO ALL
First, when we speak of persecution in the modern day we speak of verbal and written persecution. It is very similar to one speaking of being abused by their husband when he never laid a hand on her, but is constantly yelling. Verbal and psycological abuse are still abuse, even though there is not threat of death or bodily harm. Just as verbal percecution is still percecution even though there is no threat to death or bodily harm.
Also, I did not see SteveH complaining, but expressing honor in the fact that he, and the rest of us, are able to suffer perscution for the sake of Christ.
Now, as to the parable, I don’t think it is acurate, for the same reasons that Steve said. I would change it just slightly to say this. In the studying of the Mushrooms the first society test a few in animals and finds them to be toxic. They also test others and find them not to be toxic. This new society forms saying that it is fine to eat some of the mushrooms labeled as toxic, as they are not toxic to humans. It is also not good to eat some of the ones labeled healthy, because they have long term effects that the tests could not have revealed.
This more accurately describes the approach the LDS church has always had.
A few last remarks. Joseph Smith did state that several churches were false (all in fact). He mentioned the Presbyterians by name simply because his mother, a other family members had joined that church. However, he never said that everything they taught was false, simply that they were not the church of Christ.
The idea that no other church has the fullness, therefore cannot bring salvation, is often misunderstood. They cannot bring a full salvation, but they can bring a partial. This was not fully understood by Joseph until the 1830’s, ten or more years after he made this statement to his mother. It is in the 76 section of the D&C that the full knowledge of the levels of heaven was revealed, which was received in 1832. From this time, when they understood it, it has been taught that all the Christian faiths will bring people to heaven, but only the one that is the church organized by Christ can bring men to the highest level of Heaven.
In all truth, we give more credit to other religions than they give to us. They teach that all mormons are condemned to hell, yet we proclaim that they will make it to heaven.
Megan,
It is apparent that you do not know the meaning of the word “PERSECUTION”. Therefore I will supply a definition as found in Google:
per⋅se⋅cute [pur-si-kyoot] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -cut⋅ed, -cut⋅ing.
1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
2. to annoy or trouble persistently.
As a Latter-day Saint I have suffered physical persecution from the hands of evangelicals who claim to be Christians. In many third world countries physical persecution against Mormons occurs every day.
It should be noted that the term persecution is not restricted to physical abuse but also includes verbal or written abuse. Mocking, reviling, and demonizing another’s faith is just not rude behavior but is also a form of persecution.
So please do not claim the Mormons are not persecuted.
Ralph:
nice list, I would note that AnYONE with their precious “ONE TRUE MUSHROOM” clutched to their bosom would bring out precisely the same list. Of course you are different….
I would only add that the great majority of ev’s and orthodox do NOT hold that this list EXCLUSIVELY applies to their particular group. If my pastor tried that, I’d stand up and rebuke him openly. Not much danger in that, though, because his view of the kingdom of GOD is too solidly biblical. ALL the verses you quoted make a solid case for ONE TRUE CHURCH……not ONE TRUE INSTITUTION….there’s a difference.
Peace and light be on you and yours
(the light from a sprititual fire, I’d hope, not the other kind)
GERmIT
‘
Gundeck,
At the risk of getting off topic of this post, I will attempt to address some of your comments concerning priesthood authority.
First, priesthood authority (meaning the legal authority to act in the name of God) is derived directly from God through the ordinance of laying on of hands and is passed on through direct priesthood lineage. The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges this as does the Greek Orthodox Church as does the Anglican Church.
Peter, James and John received the Keys (or priesthood authority directly from Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration through a process of the laying on of hands and direct ordination. Apostolic churches (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican etc.) claim direct priesthood lineage to the Apostle Peter.
The genesis of Protestantism is its rejection of Papal authority. Thus by definition, Protestantism is a heterodox religion which is cut off from the direct priesthood lineage to Peter the Apostle. For Martin Luther the whole concept of priesthood authority and apostolic succession proved to be a theological conundrum which he could never resolve. Subsequent Protestant theologians still unable to tackle this theological conundrum of priesthood authority and apostolic succession resorted to redefining these terms of authority with a completely different meaning – a neat theological trick if there was ever one. In Protestant terminology apostolic authority is derived through the correct interpretation of the Bible and there is no such thing as the Catholic conception of the priesthood. Thus Protestant churches deny the priesthood authority of God.
The great claim of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that the direct priesthood lineage from Peter the Apostle was broken because of the martyrdom of the Apostles. This loss of direct priesthood lineage resulted in the cessation of priesthood authority on the earth and the ensuing Great Apostasy. Priesthood authority was restored in June 1829 when Peter, James and John conferred the priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery through the ordinance of laying on of hands. This act restored the proper authority of God on earth.
Linda,
The only references I see that supposedly back up your assertion are teachings and admonitions from prophets.
Prophets have always called people–even members of the faith– to repentance…and ‘exhorted’ them in all facets of life. That’s just what prophets do (consult your bible on that one). Whether you want to accept it or not, President Monson is your prophet, too! God calls prophets to bless ALL of his children.
And the LDS church does not sponsor so-called ‘ministries’ that are dedicated to questioning other faiths! There is nothing to be gained from destructive behavior. The gospel attracts new converts everyday because of its’ positive message that rings true in the hearts of those prepared to hear it. That simple. We don’t waste our time organizing against other Christians and the things they hold sacred.
FOR EXAMPLE…I saw something on twitter (from this website) informing people of dates/times you were going to be at the opening of the Draper temple–that’s completely unnecessary and disrespectful! Let LDS enjoy their temple–a building the entire community and membership has contributed through tithing monies and significant volunteering…pick another place for your ‘ministry’. Have some respect for our culture and beliefs! Is it your desire to defame, disrespect and attack everything LDS love and sacrifice for? If not, then I suggest a different tactic- because that is how you are perceived. News Flash: We think very highly of the prophet and don’t take criticism of his mantle lightly–and easily dismiss those who attempt to do just that.
Maybe try the LDS approach–which seems to work quite well—just stand up for your perception of the doctrine of Christ–and let those you minister to be the judge- You don’t need to attack another religion (factually or otherwise) in order to bring truth to those who are waiting for it. Teach the merits of ‘mainstream’ Christianity– why does untruth matter so much? It’s like trying to convert people to Jesus by testifying of the devil, right? The Savior of the world is far more interesting, I think. If LDS theology is the work of man, it will come to naught on its’ own terms. But the reason it continues to press forward is because it is the work of God. Come join us, we would love to have you!
Ah but Germit,
There in lies one fault of the ‘mushroom’ analogy that Sharon has given.
She says that a group savor and eat many types of mushrooms – but what she did not say was that there is segregation within that large group with some saying that certain species of mushroom are toxic, while other groups disagree with that list and have a different list. Even though all agree on a few main mushrooms to eat, they all have their own list which they adhere to. To top it off, some are changing their lists – for example the American Anglican Church and the Presbyterian/Methodist Community in Australia are ordaining gay ministers and a Catholic Priest in Brisbane Australia has been put under reprimand for blessing gay partnerships and advocating for gay marriages (and he has almost full support from his local congregation). So although all thes mushroom eating groups have decided to accept each other, they still have very different ideas on what mushrooms are toxic and what ones aren’t. Anyone outside of these accepted groups are outcast – so there is still exclusivity there as to a ‘one true society’ mindset, just that your ‘one true society’ will accept some differences of opinion.
Whereas the Bible states that there is ONE way to get to Heaven and that we need to come to a UNITY of faith (ie only one list of mushrooms that can be eaten). This is why we need prophets in this day and age – to act as God’s appointed mouthpiece and be the one leader on this earth for God’s one true faith. As Jesus taught – a house divided against itself will not stand. All of these various lists of toxic/non-toxic mushrooms cause a division which right now you can all agree to ‘turn a blind eye’ and accept each other. But in the past it was not so. The RC church called the Protestant religions apostate and vice versa. The RC and GO churches split because of a differences of opinion and called each other apostate. The list can go on. But for some reason, in this day and age all of these communities are now accepting of each other and saying it fine to believe what you want as long as you beling to one of these groups. So you all started out as ‘one true’ exclusivists but now you are ‘many true’ but still exclusivists.
Why does it matter that we LDS are one true exclusivists and stick with it? At least we are being faithful to our roots in that respect.
Amanda,
I really do enjoy your posts. I am not being sarcastic about that. I may enjoy them in a way you did not intend but that is a different story.
“And the LDS church does not sponsor so-called ‘ministries’ that are dedicated to questioning other faiths! There is nothing to be gained from destructive behavior. The gospel attracts new converts everyday because of its’ positive message that rings true in the hearts of those prepared to hear it.”
No you just come to our doorsteps whether we want you to or not. Seriously, you guys have earned a bad reputation for the door-to-door thing (even though I personally do not mind). However, you do not let outsiders tell you how to go about your religion why should we let you do so for us? Also, the above quote is O so Pelagian 🙂
“that’s completely unnecessary and disrespectful”
Like mocking Christian ministers in temple ceremonies!
“News Flash: We think very highly of the prophet and don’t take criticism of his mantle lightly–and easily dismiss those who attempt to do just that.”
And we in turn readily dismiss you (plural) for being so thin skinned.
“If LDS theology is the work of man, it will come to naught on its’ own terms. But the reason it continues to press forward is because it is the work of God.”
Gamaliel you are not. Under that line of reasoning we here are doing the work of God and so is the Catholic Church and so is Islam.
If “negative” evangelism is so bad why have Protestant sects that started after 1830, surpassed the numbers of your church?If negative evangelism does not work then why have some Mormons come to Christ by way of it? If being negative is contra biblical why is it all over the Bible? Personally, I love the OT because it is so not PC.
The concept is pretty simple. Christianity is like any group in that it defines and maintains its borders. Mormonism does this too by constantly distancing itself from polygamous/fundamentalist sects. Mainstream Islam slams The Nation of Islam (and other heretical Muslim sects). If you talk about “The Nation” enough to Muslims you will at some point get the response – “that is not Islam”. You are our version of The Nation of Islam.
As a biologist, when I first saw the title I thought it was going to ba a discussion of species – ie angels, cherubs, deaity, man, etc. I was really looking forward to telling everyone to get stuffed ! 🙂
SteveH,
First there was no laying on of hands on the Mount of Transfiguration. Second we never see a passing of the “keys” in the way you claim in the NT. Third, as I have demonstrated before the distinction between presbuteros and episkopos filling two distinct offices comes much later, mid 3rd century. Fourth, you do not see in the early writings of Clement (1st century) a claim of apostolic succession or the priesthood, with the exception of the priesthood of all believers, I admit that Rome sees apostolic succession implied in his letter but you cannot get around Clements hostility to a priesthood hierarchy. Your Church cannot even follow the qualifications for deacons why should we trust your view on any Church office?
I would also like to say that the majority of Christians are not that particularly concerned about the Mormons. Those that are and who do more than talk about it on the internet are convinced that your teachings have gone beyond error and fear for the salvation of people who follow Joseph Smith. This is not out a need to persecute or a feeling of superiority, it is out of a dependency on the saving grace of Jesus Christ and a need to follow his commandments that comes with that grace.
One last thing, “priesthood” and “authority” are never used in the Bible together. You do find “priest” and authority” used together in Matt 21:23 (the temple priests challenging Jesus’ authority); Acts 9:14; 26:10, 12 (all having to do with the authority that Saul was given to persecute Christians prior to his conversion).
faithoffathers,
You are right, I did misread what Joseph Smith said. I thought he was criticizing Christian churches as false and and working together with the adversary (or Satan). I read it to say that our beliefs/doctrines and creeds are an abomination to God when he said that “all their creeds are an abomination to God.” I read it to say that we don’t teach God’s truth but doctrines of men. I did not realize Joseph was endorsing Presbyterianism, I completely misread what he said. 😉
I also have to tell you in the last 10 years at Church, not once has our minister at either the church we attended before we moved, or our current Church ever spoken about Mormon beliefs or why Mormons are wrong, or even mentioned Mormonism save 1 time. At our previous Church our pastor, a former Roman Catholic, said that we can work together with Catholics and Mormons on social issues despite our different faiths. So no, the churches I have been a member of are not preaching about Mormons, they are proclaiming the gospel, teaching about the death and resurrection of Christ and his complete payment for all our sins on the cross. That’s it. If people like myself want to engage with others in defense of the gospel, that’s great, but it is not their calling as teaching elders. They don’t do politics, they don’t focus on cultural criticism, they focus on Jesus Christ and our desperate need for a savior as we are completely unable to save ourselves in our fallen sinful state. They teach about the Sovereignty of God – the might and power of God to fulfill His will in this world so that we may know as believers “that all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been CALLED according to HIS purpose.” Our pastors have taught and preached about the gospel, the saving work of Christ and God’s absolute Sovereignty. I have never heard them preach a sermon or teach anything on Joseph Smith or Mormonism.
SteveH, I do apologize for sounding cantankorous. It is amazing though how one’s life experiences can influence one’s perceptions of the meanings of different words. I think the “persecution” claim hit a chord with me because I grew up in the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination (started out as a missions group in the late 1800’s, and then became a full-fledged denomination), where missions and an awareness of the persecuted Church was emphasized. It was common for church prayers to include prayers for the persecuted in other countries. Anyway, I think there are many words where we all have our own perceptions, and haven’t bothered to look up the particular definitions until prompted to. The problem with the definition you presented (not you, but the the definition) is that it is so broad and subjective. Who’s to say what persecution really is if it just involves words? Are the LDS missionaries persecuting me because they show up on my doorstep and “harrass” me with their words? What about the JW’s who leave their tracts behind? What about Dallin Oaks, in a recent General Conference, attacking Christians who criticize Mormon’s view of the godhead? What about my Apologetics Bible, which has sections on explaining the faith systems of agnosticism, Hinduism, Mormonism, or Islam? I wouldn’t characterize any of these examples as persecution. It seems like Mormons are so quick to cry “persecution”, and it is a very effective, if unfair means of cutting off all debate or dialogue.
Hi Amanda. I see you’re writing a note to me but I’ve stayed out of this thread. Did you mean someone else? I’m too tired out to participate anymore. I wish you and your husband well.
I’ve got another “mushroom” parable;
Its about keeping people in the dark and feeding them manure.
We’ve all experienced it, but its particularly offensive when its done in the name of God; “…God is light, and in him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5).
To my LDS friends: this cut and paste is from that lover of Jesus and HIS WORD, Gundek
One last thing, “priesthood” and “authority” are never used in the Bible together. You do find “priest” and authority” used together in Matt 21:23 (the temple priests challenging Jesus’ authority); Acts 9:14; 26:10, 12 (all having to do with the authority that Saul was given to persecute Christians prior to his conversion).
slightly off topic, but I just wanted to highlight this thot, as it’s been on my mind a lot lately; I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard “where’s your authority……”
As usual: nice work Gundek
GERMIT
PS: you can find a very clear reference to our authority in the last few verses of Matthew 28…..the last phrase spells it out
….and lo I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even to the end of the age.
(now THAT”S authority)
Mr Germit,
Just a thot (as you put it)…
Have you considered that Christ, our Great High Priest, exercises his authority over his church by serving it? Worldy powers impose their authority by decree, whereas Christ inaugurates the Rule of God by living out the love of God.
Personally, I think it is one of the joys of the Christian gospel; we can’t out-serve or out-love the God we worship.
,,,and he is with us. Always has been, always will be.
Hmmm….thankyou, Gundek and Germit, that’s a good point about priesthood and authority to tuck away in my mind.
Martin: yeah, sure…..next you’ll be telling me that the infinite Man-God Jesus is all into using HIS power to……I dunno…….like maybe…..WASH FEET or something…..I mean , get real here people…. WHAT ABOUT AUTHORITY ???
ok, tongue is now out-of-cheek so I can finish my hot cereal.
GERMIT
PS connect the dots on matt 28 where Jesus is telling HIS disciples that “I’m sending you out to teach others to be like you and ME…..” maybe we have a “servanthood gap” that is a wrench in the evangelism works….just a thot
All this hoopla by Mormons to protect the heresies of Mormonism is but a sea of red herrings to obscure the unbiblical teachings the Mormon Church espouses. Mormons need to consider the destiny of their choices when they try to teach a god with a beginning, who is a mere exalted man. This is heresy. That’s plain and simple. This is the issue: Mormons have bought into the JS version of God, and will go to great lengths to defend such heretical teachings. Yes, HERETICAL teachings. It has always been the duty of Christians to reveal heresies and to fight against them. And, that’s what we are doing even today.
Peace and Blessings
Mobaby,
Thanks for the response. I am glad to hear that your church doesn’t spend time worrying about the doctrine of other religions. Sounds like a healthy thing.
My statement was that “Many do in fact spend considerable time in their churches criticizing and mocking LDS beliefs.” And this is certainly true.
Not sure about your point about Presbytarianism. Joseph was not attacking members of those churches. I think he was saying that the creeds and dogmas of mainstream religion had “hijacked” truth and claimed authority they didn’t possess. Again, he is referring to theologians, preachers, leaders who lead people astray for personal gain, whether it is fame, glory, riches, or control.
fof
faithoffathers,
I can’t tell you what goes on in every church because I don’t know. That’s why I specifically used my own experience and not a broad generalization.
Just as they removed the “Christian minister mocking” from the temple ritual (I have heard), there may need to be a rewrite on that section of the Joseph Smith History because I see a lot more than just “these are specific bad preachers, condemned for persecuting Joseph Smith.” I see a condemnation of Christian doctrines, teaching, and creeds. I believe in the truth of the gospel and share it with others, I believe and know those creeds to be Biblical. You should really take a look at the Westminster Confession of Faith and it’s abundant scriptural references supporting the doctrines of the Christian faith. If you would like to check it out, here is an online link to the Westminster Confession – http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
CONCERNING PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY
The authority to act in the name of God is clearly spelled out in both the Old and the NEW Testaments. The simple fact that the words priesthood and authority do not appear together has nothing to do with it and is a feeble attempt to explain it away. The argument is not logical. Using the same logic the argument can be made that the term Rapture is never spoken in the Bible, thus this doctrine is false. Yet I have confidence that many people could site an rather full list of scriptures that show the concept of the Rapture to prove it true. I will now do the same with the doctrine of Priesthood Authority.
In 1 Samuel 2: 28 it tells us that God gave Aaron the authroity to act as a priest to the house of Israel. 2 Chronicles 26: 18 we have Uzziah being critized for trying to do that which only the priests had authority to do. In Matthew 16: 19 God gives Peter the “Keys of the Kingdom” and the power to bind on earth and in heaven. In Mark 11: 28 the priests question Jesus on his authority, as they should have had the authority, being priests. This shows that the priests had authority that others did not, as did prophets (such as Samuel). It clearly points to a priesthood authority.
In Mark 3: 14 he ordained the twelve, and in Luke 10: 1 he appointed another seventy. No where does Christ, or any of the Apostles, call a person to the ministry without first ordaining them. We are given the method in Acts 6: 6, Acts 8: 18, Acts 13: 3, and 1 Tim. 4: 14 which speak to the laying on of hands (and it is safe to assume they learn this from Christ). For evidence of a higherarchy I direct you to Titus 1: 5 where it is said that they ordained elders in every city. Quite obviously these elders were under the authority of the Apostles as they defered back to them on more than one point of doctrine (like circumsision).
On a final note, Hebrews chapter 5 is a great discourse on priesthood authority. In verses 1-3 we get teh basic duties of the priesthood. In verse 4 we are told that you must be called of God, as was Aaron. 5-6 tell us that even Christ was appointed in this manner, and given the priesthood after the order of Melchisidec. 7-8 are an aside explaining the greatness of Melchisidec as a High Priest. 9-11 we are told that it was through this priesthood authority tht he was able to fullfill the salvation of teh world. The chapter than ends with a comment that the Jews were unable to understand all this and so were unable to be called to teach others.
All this shows that the authority to act in the name of God, to perform the ordinances of the Gospel, and ordain others to the ministry was held by the priests, thus it is a priesthood authority.
Whether you agree with the doctrine or not, it is possible to show the concept in the Bible.
FoF,
What exactly is the difference between the “creeds and dogmas” and the “theologians, preachers, leaders” and the members of the Presbyterian Church? Presbyterians are a pretty democratic bunch, we vote on the call for our “preachers” (Ministers of the Word and Sacrament (teaching elders)) and we vote on the laity “ruling elders”. So while you may find it ok to make this type of distinctions that is not what Presbyterians are hearing.
How far down the chain does Joseph Simth’s condemnations go? John Calvin, undoubtedly Bad. Professor at Westminster, must be bad. Moderator of the General Assembly, pretty Bad. Minister in a Church, Just plain bad. Elder in a Church, surely bad. Deacon in a Church, probably bad. Sunday school teacher might be bad. Usher, might not be so bad.
FoF: I don’t want to make more of this than is reasonable, but really, I find your take on JS comments to be carelessly benign. It’s not as if JS was on record as saying, “You know, some of those common, rank and file Presbyterians really aren’t so bad, and have a few things to teach us…..” His comment reads much more generally to me, and your inclusion of “personal fame…glory…..riches…” to me is just pure revisionism. I think it’s pretty plain that he just didn’t care for PRESBYTERIANISM, the theology of presbyterians. Do you think this is an unfair comment ??
And today, when the mishies go “knock knock knock” on a presbyterians door, don’t they operate with the understanding that this person, irrespective of their rank or office in that church, does NOT have the fullness of the gospel ??
I think this is a case where JS , among others, spoke very plainly. Let’s not dress this up to be something it wan’t, and isn’t.
I can handle JS opinion……it’s the dress up thing that irks me a little.
Giving thanks in all things
GERmIT
PS: nice post Gundek
A thought for Shem,
I have talked with many LDS members who keep claiming God gives us and used to create the earth with priesthood authority. I said Show me chapter and verse in either the Bible or BoM where God or the apostles ever said I bestow Priesthood authority upon you or you must have it. The Bible does speak of people having and using authority, but not priesthood authority. The mormons seem to ADD the word Priesthood before the word authority.
Here is a massive list of bible verses that use the word Authority
More of the Verses,
Any way, look at all the verses I quoted, Show me one where it mentions the word “Priesthood” Before the word authority? It does not. This is simply a word mormons insert as they feel it is needed. Read the Book of Mormon, We find the same thing their. If your going to teach something as fact, or state we must use, or need something and you cannot support it from the Scriptures, I question where you received your Information from. Rick b
Shematwater,
Nobody is denying that there are offices in the Church. My point is that there is no biblical support for your Churches priesthood authority system. In fact quite the contrary is found. For instance your Church appoints 12 year old boys as deacons. This is opposed to the clear instructions of 1 Tim 3:8-13. You send 19 year old teenagers out as elders contrary to the position of leadership that they held in the early church (Acts 11:30; 14:23; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; 20:17; 21:18; 22:5; 23:14). It also fails to follow the qualifications for an Elder laid out in Titus 1:5-9.
Trying to stay on topic, this is an example where your Church expects everybody to accept their inspired priesthood system, despite proof to the contrary.
Shem: good afternoon sir , you wrote
The simple fact that the words priesthood and authority do not appear together has nothing to do with it and is a feeble attempt to explain it away. The argument is not logical. Using the same logic the argument can be made that the term Rapture is never spoken in the Bible, thus this doctrine is false.
your comparison falls down , and breaks into pieces for a very simple reason: the bible DOES say a fair amount about authority. The GOOD BOOK is not silent about the topic, just silent about this alleged connection between priesthood and authority. So GOD HAS explained HIMSELF, just not in a manner favorable to your cause. So your appeal to “the rapture” is false: this is an area where GOD HAS explicitly said things, and given instruction about authority. I won’t refute your list point for point , but it’s interesting that you metion Matt 16, but skip Matt 18 where there is ALSO binding and loosening, but NO mention of PROPHET this or PRIESTHOOD that…..if you want to find the basis for authority, look to
Matt 18:19,20 Again I say to you, that if two of you [ANY two of you ???] agree on earth about anything that they might ask , it shall be done for them by MY FATHER WHO is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in MY name, THERE I AM IN THEIR MIDST. ”
Martin touched on this, but other “keys” to authority are HUMILITY and SERVICE
this is totally counterintuitive to the way that authority works in the workplace or gov’t
Matt 20:25,26 But Jesus called them to HIMSELF and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise AUTHORITY over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your SERVANT, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your SLAVE.
Shem, you’d have more success selling the office of SLAVE, than PRIEST in order to establish their authority…….according to JESUS, that is.
Hoping to find joy in the low position
GERMIT
S
Shem: silly me…..I glossed over Acts 9 and Acts 26 which CLEARLY links some authority to the chief priests….look these verses over and report back if THIS is the authority you are trying to sell us…..
GOD (and I’m not swearing) I hope not.
THanks Rick
GERMIT
Gundek,
Good point. I teach Children’s Church and specifically teach about the efficacy of Christ, how no one is righteous (not one), that God saves us because of His Mercy and through the sacrifice of Christ and NOT our inherent goodness – in fact God saved the folks in the Bible and called them to follow Him, not because they were righteous or better, but because of His Divine mercy and grace. That all the Bible points to the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross, the final sacrifice for all. Since I teach the doctrines and creeds of our Church how bad does that make me? Also, I am friends with our minister, and he is a pretty sincere and down to earth guy – always applying the conviction for sin that he finds in the Bible to himself first. Yet, he is convinced of the truth of the Presbyterian/Reformed faith. He doesn’t seem to be trying to exploit us church members?? You raise an excellent point, how far down does the bad go before it fizzles out. I go to a small church so nearly everyone serves in some capacity. Hmmm, we must all be bad apples.
germit,
My initial comments about Presbytarianism were in response to Mobaby’s interpretation of Joseph’s statement. Mobaby was saying that JS was saying Presbytarians were part of the dark and evil influence…… I pointed out that the reference to Presbytarians was not necessarily connected to that statement.
In saying this, I do not seek to revise what Joseph said. I would agree with him that the creeds and false doctrines taught among many churches DO lead people astray and keep them from fully understanding all there is to know about God and His plan. And in that sense, those creeds, etc. are a dark influence on humanity. But this does not mean that members of those churches are evil or have bad intentions. I was trying to clarify to Mobaby the distinction.
By the way- much has changed since 1820. The world has fallen so far into depravity that I truly find it hard to criticize anybody who is sincerely living their religion to the best of their ability- just because, relatively speaking, there are limited numbers of people doing so. And there is so much to influence individuals away from true religion.
P.S. I am not talking about extremists who take innocent lives and other crazy stuff.
Peace out mine bruder!
fof
Gundeck, Germit, RickB, et. al.,
There seems to be some confusion amongst evangelicals regarding the concept of priesthood. This is not surprising given the fact that evangelical theology by and large dismisses as papish dogma the traditional Christian doctrine of the priesthood – a doctrine that , mind you, constitutes a foundational tenet of the Christian faith. In contrast, Protestants ascribe to the adulterated notion of a universal priesthood – a concept that I find devoid of any real meaning.
The term priesthood implicitly denotes the legal authority to act in God’s name. One does not necessarily need to add the word “authority” to the word priesthood to convey this sense of divine commission. This is just common LDS parlance.
The priesthood is the legal authority to act in God’s name in administering various religious rites such as baptism, blessing the holy eucharist, (sacrament), performing a marriage, blessing the sick etc. The priesthood (more formally referred to as the Priesthood after the Order of the Son of Man) is evident throughout the Old and New testament. The priesthood is conferred by the ordinance of laying on of hands as practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church, the Anglican Church – in other words the vast majority of Christendom. In contrast, Evangelical theology deviates markedly from traditional, apostolic Christianity on this and many other points.
Steve said,
Steve, I can show you verses Before the death and after the Resurrection of Jesus, where His disciples and apostles baptised people, cured the sick and brought the dead back to life, not once before or after the death Did I read Jesus ever say, You guys can only do this with any type of priesthood authority.
As a matter fact Steve, The Disciples Came to Jesus and were complaining that people were baptising in His Name, it was implied the person(s) doing it were not followers of Jesus, Yet Jesus told them to allow it, this shows the person(s) doing it were not given this “Priesthood authority” you speak of by Jesus Himself. care to explain? Rick b
David,
“Gamaliel you are not. Under that line of reasoning we here are doing the work of God and so is the Catholic Church and so is Islam.”
My point is exactly that of Gamaliel–a point that you negate in that same sentence! And if the catholic church is of man, then it will also come to nought-same with Islam..AND? Are we to fight against those faiths based on Gamaliel’s wisdom? LDS theology is no different.
“you just come to our doorsteps whether we want you to or not.”
I guess when you are on the Lord’s errand, you can’t worry too much about what others think. There are many who invite them in–and are baptized as a result. The rejection is worth that ONE person who hears His voice.
” Seriously, you guys have earned a bad reputation for the door-to-door thing (even though I personally do not mind).”
-Christ’s reputation put Him on the cross…and it seems His work again is garnering a negative reputation. It’s almost a prerequisite for knowing you are doing the right thing…if others scorn you.
“However, you do not let outsiders tell you how to go about your religion”
We aren’t GOING about our religion when we discuss OTHER religions. See the important distinction? Now if your religion is defined by negating the restored gospel..what exactly would you name that faith? Certainly isn’t Christianity.
“Like mocking Christian ministers in temple ceremonies!”
Are you getting your information from youtube?
“And we in turn readily dismiss you (plural) for being so thin skinned.”
On what terms is believing a prophet of God weak? Let’s throw out the bible then!
“If “negative” evangelism is so bad why have Protestant sects that started after 1830, surpassed the numbers of your church? ”
-Protestantism attracted humble people who sought a personal relationship with God through personal study of scripture and personal prayer…and it was a movement that opened the door for the foundation of a FREE country–which also opened the door for the restored gospel. I’m not anti-protestant–nor am I taking score…that game is for those on here who are ‘ministering’.
” If being negative is contra biblical why is it all over the Bible? Personally, I love the OT because it is so not PC.”
Calling people to repentance is what those with AUTHORITY do. The bible is often far from PC because of that–I appreciate that as well..but mocking Mormonism is TOTALLY PC! Why else do you think we got most of the criticism for prop 8! That is not me playing victim either, that is just the unadulterated truth.
“The concept is pretty simple. Christianity is like any group in that it defines and maintains its borders.”
The facts do not support this one bit! You want to distance yourself from the justification of slavery by ‘Christians’ in early American history! Early Christians disagreed to their very core about doctrine that violence and politics ensued for CENTURIES! You cannot honestly be a student of history and claim that ‘mainstream Christianity’ doesn’t have its’ roots in conflict and heresy. You can’t even be sure which translation of the bible is the most accurate!
” Mormonism does this too by constantly distancing itself from polygamous/ fundamentalist sects. ”
LDS distances itself from other sects for obvious reasons…WE AREN’T THE SAME! And the church does not distance itself from ACTUAL LDS who practiced polygamy–only decades of not practicing polygamy separate us–we do not condemn them for their actions, we knew they were commanded!
But the irony in your statement is that you erroneously try to distance the term Christian from The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints–whereas the LDS church is absolutely accurate in distinguishing themselves from other religions! Ridiculous!
“Mainstream Islam slams The Nation of Islam (and other heretical Muslim sects). If you talk about “The Nation” enough to Muslims you will at some point get the response – “that is not Islam”. You are our version of The Nation of Islam. ”
Christ was a Jew who claimed to be the Savior of the world–and the mainstream Jews said “He is not the God of Abraham”.
Mainstream Christians slam the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and say “you are not Christian”. You are really good at the irony stuff.
RickB,
Not to belabor the point but that is your personal interpretation of the scriptures. An interpretation which I might add is at variance with that of traditional, apostolic Christianity.
FOF says: “I would agree with him that the creeds and false doctrines taught among many churches DO lead people astray and keep them from fully understanding all there is to know about God and His plan.”
Yes, the creeds and false doctrines among many churches lead people astray. The false teachings of JS et al have led and continue to leave good people called Mormons astray. God is not a god who had a beginning–that’s leading people astray. You will not become a god yourselves–that’s leading people astray. Jesus and Satan are not brothers (one is an angel, the other is GOD incarnate)–that’s leading people astray. We are not saved on the merits of our works, but SOLELY on the grace of God through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ–that’s leading people astray. Using the phrase, “it’s not official church doctrine” is leading people astray.
I understand that I don’t “merit” a response from FOF et al. That’s okay. I know that I am speaking the truth about Mormonism, and it is my hope that some readers just might start asking the tough questions about JS and BY and all the other false prophets that perpetuate the lies of JS et al and their heretical teachings. Mormons are quick to tell us how JS was a prophet and the LDS Church is true, and quick to condemn us and accuse us of “not playing nice” when we fight against heresies. I know the Holy Spirit is working in their lives to enlighten their minds with the truth of Good News of Jesus Christ, but they have closed their ears and shut their eyes in order that they might defend JS and a false religion. Is it their fault? No. I blame it all on JS and the Church that perpetuates heresies. I have three children enslaved in Mormonism, and I will stand up for the truth as breathed in God’s Word and confirmed by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Grace and Peace to all who seek it!!
Steve,
Say what you want, but the one thing you can seem to do or say is, Where in the Bible are the verses you speak of? Rick b
RickB,
Rick I would refer you to the post by shematwater which contains a good summary and biblical verses concerning the priesthood.
Steve, I read those and gave 2 really long lists of Bible verses and asked the questions, Where Does it say, You must have priesthood authority, or where does the verse that says, in order to baptise or cast out demons or do…
you need priesthood authority, it simply is not in the Bible, and I do not think you can honestly say, How come it is not in the bible and how come you need to add the words priesthood to the word authority? Rick b
SteveH,
In your zeal to attack the Reformation you have failed to take into account the history of the early Church. You are taking tidbits of information and parsing it out to prove that your Church has an authentic claim to a priesthood. You are ignoring the entire monastic movement, arising heresies and developments of the offices of the Church in the first three centuries of the Church.
As we have shown before the “bishop” and “elder” were in fact terms that were used interchangeably. Local Churches (including Rome) were ruled by a collegiate group that were sometimes called bishops and sometimes elders. Apostolic succession did not become important until the mid second through third century, first to fight the Marcion heresies and then the Gnostic. In fact the Church in Rome lost its Bishop during the Decius persecution (mid third century) so they have not had an uninterrupted succession from Peter for quite some time.
We do not see the term “priest” used until the conversion of Constantine. This term and the required ordination caused quite a controversy among the monastic movement who considered it a fate worse than death to be called as a bishop, but were now being forced into the church hierarchy.
I find it odd that you a Mormon, who must believe in the great apostasy as the central tenant of your faith, is now using the forms of Church government as they evolved in response to heresies and acceptance by the Constantinian Roman empire to prove the validity of your priesthood system. I am asking you the same question I asked Amanda, is it intellectually honest to use arguments that do not support your position?