“It’s no accident that Mormon steeples, temples and necks are free of Christian crosses.
“LDS leaders long have said the cross, so ubiquitous among traditional Christians, symbolizes Jesus’ death, while Mormons worship the risen Christ.”
So begins a recent article in the Salt Lake Tribune (Mormons and the cross).
This interesting article by Peggy Fletcher Stack takes a look at the newly completed master’s thesis, “The Development of the LDS Church’s Attitude Toward the Cross,” by Michael Reed. According to the Salt Lake Tribune,
“[The] Mormon aversion to the cross is a relatively recent development in LDS history, prompted in part by anti-Catholic sentiments.
“‘It first started at the grass-roots level around the turn of the 20th century,’ Michael Reed argues…
“‘It later became institutionalized during the 1950s under the direction of LDS Prophet David O. McKay.'”
Mormon scholar Bob Rees explains further,
“At one time there was an informal acceptance of [the cross] as an overt symbol, but in the 20th century its use has been discouraged by church leaders. Wanting to maintain its distinctive identity among Christian churches, the church essentially rejected outward manifestations of the cross, one of the most compelling symbols in all of Christendom…”
Apparently, crosses were at one time somewhat popular among Mormons, the symbol appearing on early LDS buildings, documents, and members (in the form of jewelry). But the LDS Church’s opposition to Catholicism won out in the middle of the 20th century.
Beginning in the 1920s when then-Apostle David O. McKay became frustrated over the lack of success in converting Catholics to Mormonism, and continuing into the 1930s when LDS leaders (including McKay) believed a Catholic Bishop in Utah was trying to convert Mormons, McKay’s vexation with Catholicism finally came to a head with his 1953 identification of the Catholic Church as one of the “two great anti-Christs in the world” (the second being Communism).
According to the Salt Lake Tribune, in 1957, by then the President of the LDS Church, David O. McKay
“established the LDS Church’s no-cross protocol, saying it was not proper for LDS girls to wear it on their jewelry, saying the cross is ‘purely Catholic.'”
Actually, the Cross of Christ is purely biblical, purely Christian.
The Apostle Paul wrote,
“May it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” (Galatians 6:14)
Christian pastor John Piper explains,
“Only boast in the cross of Jesus Christ. It is a single idea. A single goal. A single passion. Only boast in the cross. The word can be translated ‘exult in’ or ‘rejoice in.’ Only exult in the cross of Christ. Only rejoice in the cross of Christ. Paul says let this be your single passion, your single boast and joy and exultation. In this great moment called ONE DAY let the ONE THING that you love, the one thing that you cherish, the one thing that you rejoice in and exult over be the cross of Jesus Christ…
“…for redeemed sinners, every good thing — indeed every bad thing that God turns for good — was obtained for us by the cross of Christ. Apart from the death of Christ, sinners get nothing but judgment. Apart from the cross of Christ, there is only condemnation. Therefore everything that you enjoy in Christ — as a Christian, as a person who trusts Christ — is owing to the death of Christ. And all your rejoicing in all things should therefore be a rejoicing in the cross where all your blessings were purchased for you at the cost of the death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (Boasting Only in the Cross).
Mormons don’t choose to use the Cross as a religious symbol. Instead they choose sunstones, CTR rings and representations of a heralding angel to symbolize their distinctive faith.
Nevertheless, be it a method of execution, be it jewelry worn by rap stars, be it misused as a flaming sign of racism, the Cross ever remains for Christians our symbol of hope and peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do I get to be first off the rank again? Must be my lucky week!
Call me an iconoclast if you like, but I’m not too motivated about arguing over symbolism. That’s a different issue from what I think Sharon’s main concern is; namely that the Cross (the real thing, not the symbol) has been pushed aside in favor of something else.
So, I’m OK with the cross as a public symbol of an inner reality. In fact I like it because it speaks to me about God, and I’m not troubled at all that the Catholics use it as well.
It appears that LDS don’t like the cross because of its (perceived) association with the Roman Catholic Church. I wonder why the LDS church appear to hate the Catholics so much that they have purged what, to me, is a quintessentially Christian symbol just to disassociate from them?
What are we talking about here; the (real) Cross, the symbol, or LDS animosity to the Catholic Church?
I find it ironic that Mormonism rejects the symbol of the cross while at the same time has temples with occult symbols all over them! Someone help me out here, but doesn’t Mormonism also have a doctrine regarding what happened at the cross which is different from orthodox Biblical Christianity? What I mean by “what happened” is that Christians point to the cross as the place where the atonement (for our sins) took place. I don’t know what the motivation for Mormonism was in rejecting the cross as a symbol but it does set them a part from the Christian community and I suppose it’s one more reason why Christians may contend that Mormonism isn’t a Christian religion. Would Mormons put a “fish” symbol on the back of their cars? I’ve been thinking about getting one. I kind of like them.
I for one believe that symbols have significance. In my state, there has been a movement afoot for several years to ban the use of indian logos and mascots from use by public school sport teams. Companies are particularly sensitive about the symbols that represent their products.
Having grown-up Catholic and attending Catholic Schools, I can attest that the crucifix is a central symbol for the church. The crucifix, in fact, depicts Jesus hanging from the cross. The front of every classroom had a crucifix. I spent my elementary school days with a constant reminder of what it cost to have my sins atoned for. Very serious stuff!
There was a trend among “seeker friendly” christian churches to remove all christian symbols, including the cross, from their church buildings. There was a rationale for wanting the building to appear religiously neutral. I personally didn’t care for the practice or rationale behind it.
I’m not ashamed of the cross of Christ.
This is interesting I was not aware of the Roman Catholic connection, I have been told in the past that Mormons considered the cross to be idolatrous and a violation of the Second Commandment. When told this my question was why Mormon Churches have pictures of Jesus as this is also forbidden by the Second Commandment?
1 Cor 1:18, “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (NIV)
Here is my former-mormon perspective on this. Anti-Catholicism was not particularly unusual in the 50s. Remember that JFK had a certain amount of trouble getting elected in 1960. David O. McKay let his John Birch leanings get the best of him, and his personal biases have been turned into doctrine. I’ve not heard of any scriptural basis for this practice. I suspect none exists.
As for the fish on the back of cars, I can speak from personal experience. Putting a fish on the back of your Suburban and driving it to church is an express ticket to being shunned by the ward. (Lucky for us, that truck was stolen and replaced by one without the vile symbol of Christ. Lucky for us twice, we don’t attend the mormon church any more.)
I don’t think that the SL Tribune article tells the whols story. In “No Man Knows My History”, for example, we read that the Kirtland temple originally carried the message “No Cross No Crown” above the door. My guess is that the symbol of the cross was originally discouraged out of a reaction against European church-state authority by the early Mormon church. As time went on the cross started to be used, and was then discouraged in mid-20th century, partly out of the anti-catholic sentiments of a few, but also from a kind of neo-orthodox look back to the earliest days of the church. In recent years the cross was discouraged in order to make LDS more disctinctive. Just my guess of course.
Stickly speaking, from a PR perspective, this “no cross” policy by the Mormon Church is really kind of a disaster. I know Mormons will show-up here with all sorts of fiddle faddle reasoning regarding their non recognition of the cross, but the actual rationale is probably lost from the days of David O. Mckay. I liked what Bill McKeever had to say in the video about liking it better when Mormons were more hard core and distinctive. My guess that’s where the noncross policy came from. Now the policy is to pump a lot of smoke around and fog-up the issues so that people think there’s no difference between Mormonism and the First Baptist Church on the corner. What was Hinckley’s standard line about Mormons being Christians because they have Jesus’ name as part of the name of their church?
So anyway, I don’t know if it was a devious and sinister plot on the part of Satan to be sure that since Mormons deny the God and Jesus of the Bible that they also deny the cross as a symbol…..or if the Mormon church in it’s usual ham handed way of dealing with things just dropped the ball here? What we do know is that the symbols they choose are occultic in nature and the one they deny, the cross, is the major symbol of Christianity.
Maybe I can get Berean to submit the pictures of the Mormon temples with they’re occult symbols on them so the readers here can see what I’m talking about.
Hello Sharon,
I would like to address some of the issues and misconceptions presented here.
It should be noted that the eschewing the Cross of crucifix is a matter of LDS sentiment and culture but is not LDS doctrine. The LDS position is that we celebrate the risen Christ and do not wish to dwell upon the horrific manner of the Lord’s public execution.
To be certain, the eschewing of the Cross emanates in part from a reaction to the Catholic tradition of crucifix idolatry. This reaction is also found in many protestant churches wherein the sign of the ichthys (or sign of the fish) is quite popular.
There are only a few LDS icons. The heralding angel Moroni is probably the most noted and perhaps the Deseret beehive. LDS children often wear CTR (Choose the Right) rings or tie clips – but this is because CTR is a motto in the children’s Sunday School Class (Primary) and is the name of the class age group for 5 to 8 year olds.
Critics often falsely accuse the LDS Church of not venerating Christ or accepting the crucifixion of Christ as being part of the Lord’s Atonement. I refer to the preceding post by Falcon as a typical example.
LDS doctrine is that the Atonement commenced in the Garden of Gethsemane where Christ initially took upon himself the sins of the world and in excruciating pain sweated great drops of blood and culminated on Calvary Hill where Christ died to redeem mankind.
The infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ and His supernal Resurrection is the central tenet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Everything else is merely an appendage to that great redeeming sacrifice of the Lord.
In summary, Mormons are not ashamed of the cross of Christ and it is a lie to suggest that they are. Latter-day Saints simply prefer to celebrate the risen Christ.
Actually if anyone is interested go to:
http://www.mormonoutreach.org
There’s a presentation there that the readers may find interesting.
Crucifix idolatry? What’s that? Talk about misconceptions and lack of understanding. The symbol of Christ on the cross, as depicted by the Catholic crucifix, is just that, a symbol. I don’t know of anyone who worships the object. I mean this is a no brainer. We had statues all over the Catholic church I attended as a kid and I don’t know anyone who worshiped a statue. There’s a whole bunch of Catholic doctrine I have problems with so I don’t want to get in the position of having to defend the program but I’m just setting the record straight here.
Symbols do reflect attitudes and beliefs, no doubt about it. I think Mormonism has more explaining to do regarding their temple symbol decorations than does the Catholic church and the crucifix. The Mormon temples reflect a reality. Joseph Smith was a practioner of magic arts. He wore a Jupiter tailsman. He had a magic rock. He was deep into the Free Masons program. He blended all of this into some Christian concepts and invented a new religion. Mormons need to overlook and rationalize a ton of stuff in order to maintain the modern day fantasy the Mormon church has developed. The original brand wouldn’t make it in todays world…..see FLDS for confirmation of this.
St. Crispin,
Do you believe that your reasoning regarding the cross trumps the Bible teaching regarding it? Did any of the apostles teach Gethsemane as part of the Passion of Christ? I don’t think so. Praying for you.
Grace and Peace!
St Crispin,
The Bible is full of OT references speaking about the cross, so is the NT.
we find 2 Nephi 2:19 and Alma 42:2 only speaking about Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the garden. And Helaman 7:10 and 9:8,11 speaking about Nephi’s garden No mention of the Shedding of Blood for our sins. But we Do read about the Cross or Christ being crucified on the cross for our Sins in the BoM and D and C here in these verses.
Mosiah 3:8-9
Helman 8:14-15 and 14:13-21
3 Nephi 11:14-17 and 20:44 and 27:14 and 28:6-7
Mormon 3:21
Ether 4:1
Moroni 5:1-2 and 10:33
then over in D and C in this long list of verses.
18:11-12 20:23 20:79 21:9 27:2 35:2 45:4,51,52 53:2 76:39,41,69 110:3-5
Now if we look at a few verses in the Old Testament, we find hints of the Cross. We read accounts of the Passover. Their are 71 verses that mention the passover, And when we look at the passover we find the Cross. The blood was put on the door top and sides forming a cross. So when the people would remember the passover they would remember the cross, even though they did not know that was what they were doing.
Another thing we find in the Old Testment in the book of numbers is the placement of the tribes. There were given very specific instructions by God as to how set up camp. some placed in the north, some to the east, some the south and some in the west, with the tabernacle in the center. If you were to hop in a plane and fly over head after this was all set up, you would see the shape of a cross. So every time God looks down at them he see’s the Cross, this was what was to come. We do not find this kind of detail about the garden in the Bible or the BoM.
We find a very detailed prophecy of the coming crucifixion of Christ in Psalms 22. We do not read anywhere in the Bible, BoM or any other LDS source this kind of detailed prophecy about the garden.
Below is a list of verses that speak about the Cross.
Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mark 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear [it] after Jesus.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
And even more verses,
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
Yet LDS WANT TO SAY, the Bible does not speak of the Cross. Rick b
Could it also be that the LDS church stresses good works over the finished work of Christ on the cross? If there were crosses in the LDS chapels it would be a reminder that Christ’s death paid for our sins in full.
Falcon,
You claim to be a lapsed Roman Catholic. Perhaps that is why you are unaware of the Roman Catholic tradition of adoring the Cross, Mary, various Catholic saints, shrines, relics, etc. etc.
It is apparent that you are as ignorant of Roman Catholic doctrine (your personal heritage) as you are of LDS doctrine.
You continually make blatantly false accusations against the LDS Church, its leaders, doctrines, and people.
To wit: you claim that Joseph Smith wore a “Jupiter talisman”. This is false. There is no credible source for this accusation other than Joseph Bidamen falsely claiming possession of such an artifact some forty years after the death of Joseph Smith.
This is typical of the many false accusations which critics of the LDS Church love to parade, notwithstanding the fact that it has been disproved for decades.
Jackg,
Many Protestants eschew wearing the crucifix for the same reason that Mormons do. It is the Roman Catholic tradition of idolatry that is objectionable.
The apostles of Jesus Christ recorded the suffering of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. see Matt 26:36; Mark 14: 32;
Luke 22: 39- 44 the apostle Luke clearly records the incomprehensible pain and agony Christ was suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane as He took upon Himself the sins of the World. So great was Christ’s suffering that: Luke 22: 43-44
“And the appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground”
It is clear that the apostles recognized the awful agony Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane as the commencement of the Atonement of Christ which was culminated by His death on the Cross on the Hill of Calvary.
A correction on my previous post. It was Charles (not Joseph) Bidamen who made the claims of the Jupiter talisman while he was trying to sell this item some 70 years after the death of Joseph Smith.
Rick B.,
You state: “Yet LDS WANT TO SAY, the Bible does not speak of the Cross”
This is a completely and utterly false accusation.
To make such a blatantly false accusation it is most apparent that you are ignorant of even the basic teachings of LDS Church,
notwithstanding the fact that you like to tout yourself as being “a LDS priesthood holder” which is of and in itself an absolute, bold face lie.
The point of the matter is that the LDS Church through common practice eschews the adoration of the Cross. In no manner does the LDS Church suggest that the Cross or the act of crucifixion is not recorded in the bible.
Canuck 54,
You state: “the LDS church stresses good works over the finished work of Christ on the cross”.
Again, this is a completely false accusation with no merit whatsoever. Again, it is apparent that you are ignorant of even the basic teachings of the LDS Church.
st.crispin,
Can you explain why the LDS regard the cross idolatrous but decorate their buildings with pictures of Jesus, place statues of angels on their temples, and depict God in artwork?
Well let’s see, I went to Mass everyday but Saturday during the school year, had catechism class every school day, we got marched over to the church every Thursday afternoon for confession, during lent I went to the Stations of the Cross every Wednesday afternoon and sometimes doubled up by going in the evening with my mother, I’ve got two copies of the Baltimore Catechism right here on my bookcase, I went through all the training and received my first communion in third grade and did the same drill for confirmation when I was in seventh grade………I think I have a pretty good handle on the Catholic Church and how it was practiced at least in the 1950s and 60s…..sorry Pal we didn’t adore any crosses or any saints….I’ve got that theology down pretty well….I’d say venerate maybe, but the Church was pretty strict about who got worshiped and adored.
I’ve yet to have any Mormon tell me where I get it wrong about Mormonism. I’ve made long lists here in the past and invited our Mormon friends to show me where I’m wrong and you know what? They never do. I’ll give you a few.
1. Joseph Smith was a convicted con man specifically for claiming to be able to spot buried treasure in the ground with his magic rock.
2. Joseph Smith used the same magic rock by putting it in a hat, shoving his face in the hat supposedly to “translate” some golden plates that weren’t even present during the process.
3. Joseph Smith had at least 33 wives, some of whom where married to other men at the time, and also two young girls, one fourteen.
4. One of the purposes of the Mormon temples was to communicate with the dead during the baptism for the dead rite.
5. Joseph Smith borrowed heavily from Free Masonry for his “sacred” temple rituals.
6. Joseph Smith claimed an angel with a sword threatened to kill him if he didn’t start taking on additional women.
7. Joseph Smith told several versions of the first vision story, enhancing it each time.
OK that’s a start. I’ve got tons more here
WOW, I’m having a stream of flashbacks to my Catholic days. We’re talking St. Christopher’s medals, rosaries, scapulas on and on. Poor old St.C he got down-graded along with a bunch of other Saints sometime in the early 70s I believe. I don’t know if being out of the Catholic flock for over forty years would get me in the “lapsed Catholic” category. I think I’m pretty well out of there. One nice thing though, the Catholics don’t track you down with missionary boys on bicycles or home study teachers once you leave and you certainly don’t get the Mormon feel-up to see if you’re wearing your magic underwear….opps….Catholics don’t have magic underwear.
Anyway, I’d stand corrected on the Jupiter Tailsman, but I understand that Bill McKeever, head of the Mormon Research Ministry references it in “Mormonism 101”. Maybe someone can give Bill a headsup (that’s tailsman talk) and he can enlighten us.
But back on the topic, we know that Mormons, for whatever reason, reject the Cross as a symbol while at the same time plaster occult symbols all over the place outside their temples. Curious business I think, especially since Joseph Smith was big time into folk magic practice. The occult symbols are closer to what the prophet Smith was all about anyway!
St crispin,
You say I am a liar because I say I am an LDS priesthood holder.
Let me ask you this, how do you know that I’m not?
Then many LDS have said or been honest enough to admit on this blog, we do have different gospels, even though LDS believe theirs is the correct one.
So if LDS admit they teach a different gospel, but yet claim they are Christian, and I tell them their not Christian, Why is it I cannot claim I am LDS priesthood holder yet teach a gospel that is different from what you teach? I am doing nothing different from You guys. Rick b
Falcon,
I could easily refute point by point every false accusation you make against the LDS Church but frankly you are not worth the time or effort. You can just as easily check out sites such as FAIRLDS.org and see just how wrong you are.
It is apparent that the sum total of your warped perspective on the LDS Church comes from reading the venomous pulp fiction that passes for contra-Mormon literature.
Here is a novel idea. Why don’t you actually try attending a local LDS chapel some Sunday and find out for yourself what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is really all about.
Rick B.
You stated: “You say I am a liar because I say I am an LDS priesthood holder. Let me ask you this, how do you know that I’m not?”
Well Rick B. on this blogsite you have repeatedly signed off with the peculiar term “Rick B. lds priesthood holder”. Yet you have also stated that you are not an ex-Mormon nor have you been a member of the LDS Church.
On April 23, 2009 you stated: “I cannot tell you how many times people have asked me, if I am a former Mormon, simply becauseof my desire to reach the lost LDS.”
I asked you if you are the same Rick B. who signed off his MC posts as rick b (LDS priesthood holder) in days gone by?
You responded: “Yep that was me. I have a reason for posting that, I will not say, because I might use it again, I believe I shared the reason with the Mod Sharon. But I have reasons for doing what I do. I tend to think in strange ways, but at times they work.”
Hmmm?!!!, funny how these things can come back to haunt you.
I really do not see the need for such deception but then again in your own words you “tend to think in strange ways”.
St Crispin,
You did not answer my question?
Why can LDS claim they have a different gospel yet call them selves christian, but I cannot do as you and call my self an LDS? Rick b
RickB,
I have answered this in the past. There are many groups that believe in Jesus Christ of the NT, but they believe in Him in different ways. The term ‘Christian’ means one that believes in and follows Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Redeemer (Look up any normal dictionary, not an evangelical one). This includes those who believe in the Trinity, modalism, Godhead, etc.
Now lets look at species of dogs. There are Labradors, Pit bulls, German shepherds, Chuahuas (or however its spelt), rotweillers, sausage dogs, wolves, etc. They all look different, have their different characteristics and in some cases cannot cross species reproduce. They all belong to the classification of dog, but they are all different species. A labrador is not a pit bull is not a german shepherd, etc.
The same goes with ‘Christianity’. We all believe in and follow Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Redeemer but we have different denominations. A Catholic likes to be considered a Catholic not an Anglican or Lutheran (at least in my experiance), etc. I know there are some people who say they are non-denominational but they still have a set of beliefs that line up with certain denominations and not others and so they move in those circles that are more pleasing to them. So you can say that you are an evangelical Christian (eg wolf) but you cannot say that you are LDS (eg german shepherd) or Christadelphian (rotweiller) or AOG (chuahua), or SDA (labrador), etc. Like wise I can say I am LDS but I cannot say that I am evangelical, or Lutheran, or Anglican, etc.
That is how it works – that is why we LDS can say we are Christian but you cannot say that you are LDS, let alone a priesthood holder.
St. Crispin,
I’d like to address a few things that you mentioned in your posts above. First, you stated:
“LDS children often wear CTR (Choose the Right) rings or tie clips – but this is because CTR is a motto in the children’s Sunday School Class (Primary) and is the name of the class age group for 5 to 8 year olds.”
Only children from ages 5 to 8? You know that’s not a true statement. Did you break a commandment by making that statement? You can think it over. Every LDS missionary and most single LDS adults non-missionary I know wear the CTR ring. The young, adult woman who made my lunch today up in Beaver, Utah was wearing one like most of the other adult women in there that are single.
Second, your sins were paid for on the cross (KJV: “tree” – cross made out of wood) 1 Peter 2:24. Yes, Christ suffered in the Garden because of the anxiety of the cross that lie ahead. That is stress none of us can imagine. The cross is where it all happened. Surprisingly, D&C 138:35 agrees with the Bible on this one!
Third, Dr. Reed C. Durham, Jr., who was appointed the Director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the Univ. of Utah in 1980, educated me at the Mormon History Association Annual Meeting on April 20, 1974 about Joseph Smith WEARING and WORKING the Jupiter Talisman up until his death in 1844. Let me know if you’d like the quotes from his speech/address. It’s very disturbing and may affect your testimony of the prophet.
I enjoy wearing my Crucifix on the top of my shirt when I attend the Gospel Essentials classes at the wards. It’s a great conversation starter. An added bonus is that demons are repulsed at the sight of it. Whatever makes them angry I like wearing.
Ralph, your ideas fall short since God does not agree with you, Read all the Accounts of LDS claim millions or thousands or hundreds of gods, then Read God himself saying, I know of No other gods, their are none besides me.
Then read Paul speaking about a different Gospel Gal 1:8-9. Sadly LDS will here Jesus say, I knew knew you, depart into everlasting Fire, and then every time we spoke the truth to you and you reject it and make excuses why you choose to believe lies, then you will be sorry since you will mis out on eternal life since you choose to follow a false prophet and religion that changes daily. Rick b
I originally posted this August 15, 2008 on the thread entitled “Rejecting the Cross”. It seems to fit on this thread as well. Here it is:
Why do Mormons not like the cross? I won’t repeat the other outstanding posts that have already been offered by the good Christians on here. I will instead offer a different twist. After a Christian has been involved in exorcisms, studied demonology and the occult, demon possession, etc., it is known right from the beginning why those that are in bondage in Satan’s realm are absolutely repulsed by the sight of the cross especially the crucifix. I’m serious when I say this. I’m not saying that Mormons are demon possessed, but they have been deceived by Satan and are indirectly influenced by him who is an angel of light that masquerades, serving a different Jesus, gospel and spirir contrary to that of Bible scripture (C Cor 11:4-14). Much could be said about this, but I want to offer some visual evidence of known occultic symbols of Satan that are readily seen on Mormonism buildings. The cross doesn’t and can’t coincide with these markings.
Pentagram on the LDS Museum of Church History and Art:
http://www.hismin.com/pentagram2.html
Pentagrams on the planter’s box at the LDS visitor’s center:
http://www.hismin.com/pentagram3.html
Pentagrams on the Salt Lake Temple:
http://www.hismin.com/templepentagrams.html
“What communion hath light with darkness?”
(2 Corinthians 6:14)
This is so cool. All of my “charges” could be answered but our Mormon poster won’t do it because I’m not worth it maybe? Everything that I stated about Mormonism was true…..period….no wiggle room. Let’s face it, anything that challenges a Mormon’s testimony is considered “anti” and they run away. What part of Joseph Smith was a convicted fraud is wrong? It’s a historical fact. The written documentation of the court case is available for all to see. No thirty-three wives? That can be disproven? Go get a copy of “In Sacred Lonliness”. No magic rock in the hat trick for “translating” the golden plates? That can be disproven? That’s what Emma said he did….his wife…she was there….she saw it! Fraudulent translation of the BoA? That can be disproven?
Our Mormon poster needs to get a grip. I know, when the evidence negates the Mormon reality, the Mormon has to cast about for a new reality.
Joseph Smith rejected the God of the Bible, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Mormonism has rejected the symbol of the atonement. In it’s place Mormonism has substituted a works-righteousness program in the hopes that they can become gods. Your prophet is leading you in a direction that is so obviously fraudulent, but I know, you want so badly for it all to be true. That’s the hook in any scam.
Ralph wrote “So you can say that you are an evangelical Christian (eg wolf) but you cannot say that you are LDS (eg german shepherd) or Christadelphian (rotweiller) or AOG (chuahua), or SDA (labrador)…”
ROFL, I like the associations (we’ve got a German Shepherd), though I’m not convinced by the metaphor.
I’d fully agree with the broader statement that a Christian is someone who follows Christ. I’d even agree that a Christian can be a Christian without getting all the theology right. I remain concerned that the LDS movement presents a distorted Christ – one who has been made in the image of Joseph Smith, not the real, historic person that we read about in the Bible.
And if someone doesn’t follow the “real” thing, how can it be beneficial to him or her in his “real” life? Such a believer is cannon-fodder for the skeptics.
Anyhow, before I get into the who is/is not a Christian argument, I’d remind myself that he’s not “my” Jesus and he gives himself to whoever has faith in him. That’s why, incidentally, I don’t have a problem with Catholics (or anyone else) using the Cross as their marker of identity. If they look principally to the Christ of God, the Crucified One, then that’s OK with me.
St Crispin wrote “The LDS position is that we celebrate the risen Christ and do not wish to dwell upon the horrific manner of the Lord’s public execution.”
I suggest that the “horrific manner of the Lord’s execution” is actually something that God wants us to gaze upon. Why else do it all in public in the first place?
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” (John 19:36-37, quoting Zechariah 12:10).
Who are the “they” of John’s passage? I believe that the “they” is “us”.
Personally, I fix the image of the crucified Christ before me. What it says to me is “this is how I treat God” and “this is how God loves me”, with the great message of redemption “this is how God defeats sin and death”.
Of course, the story does not end there, but the Cross is the pivot on which the whole course of human history gets turned around.
I recommend that our LDS friends look the Crucified Lord full in the face because that’s precisely what he wants us to do.
Berean,
I correctly stated that: “LDS children often wear CTR (Choose the Right) rings or tie clips – but this is because CTR is a motto in the children’s Sunday School Class (Primary) and is the name of the class age group for 5 to 8 year olds”
This is absolutely true. However, nowhere in my post did I state that the wearing of such CTR rings was restricted to children. I myself wear a CTR tie clip.
Please, try to read the post a little more thoughtfully before making such rash charges. I know that you are more astute than that.
I would like to see some documentation regarding your statements concerning Dr. Durham. What you stated does not square at all with the documented history on this subject.
As per usual, Mormon critics continue to fabricate false accusations.
Well I see the standard program here for our Mormon posters is the old charge Christians fabricate false accusations against Mormons. That’s pretty funny. The information is out there for the whole world to see, only Mormons have a problem looking at it. It’s one of about three standard Mormon responses when their reality is being challenged. The other one is the standard persecution line.
So we are suppose to go to FAIR to get our real information. That’s pretty funny. FAIR is known for their great intellectual heft (LOL). What FAIR does is hand out apologetic blankies to naive Mormons to wrap themselves in so that they won’t have to face the hard cold facts about Mormonism. I’ve yet to have a Mormon successfully answer my questions and tell me where I’m wrong.
Just for an example, Joseph Smith’s Jupiter Tailsmen. Here’s a quote from Mormon History Association President Durham: :……in some very real and quite mysterious sense, this particular Table of Jupiter was the most appropriate tailsman for Joseph Smith to possess. Indeed, it seemed meant for him, because on all levels of interpretation: planetary, mythological, numerological, astrological, mystical cabalism, and tailsmantic magic, the Prophet was, in every case, appropriately described….Tailsmatic magic further declared that anyone who worked skillfully with the Jupiter Table would obtain the power of stimulating anyone to offer his love to the possessor of the tailsman, whether from a friend, brother, relative, or even any female.”
This was originally thought to be a Masonic jewel. Found on JS body at his death, it proves he was engaged in occult practices until the end of his life in 1844.
St. Crispin,
You need to do a better job of clarifying your statements because they are misleading. You give readers the impression from your comments on the CTR ring that only children wear them all the while leaving out that adults wear them too. Adhere to Articles of Faith #13 and be completely honest and forthright in your statements the first time not leaving out important facts.
I’m giving false accusations about Dr. Durham before you’ve seen the evidence? Check yourself – as you said, “rash charges”. Here is what Dr. Durham said at the event I stated above. His lecture was entitled “Is There No Help for the Widow’s Son”.
“Now I should like to initiate all of you into what is the strangest, the most mysterious, occult-like, esoteric, and yet Masonically oriented practice ever adopted by Joseph Smith. This may also be another fine example of our earlier explained principle of ‘grabbing on’. All available evidence suggests that Joseph Smith the Prophet possessed a magical Masonic medallion, or talisman, which he worded during his lifetime and which was evidently on his person when he was martyred…the talisman, presently existing in Utah, (in the Wilford Wood Collection, D.C.M.) was originally purchased from the Emma Smith Bidamon faimly, fully notarized by that family to be authentic and to have belonged to Joseph Smith, can now be identified as a Jupiter Talisman.” (Dr. Reed C. Durham, Jr., April 20, 1974, Mormon History Association Annual Meeting, Nauvoo, Illinois; “Is There No Help for the Widow’s Son”)
There is more if you want to read it. It was a long lecture. I’ve got a picture of the Jupiter Talisman. Let me know if you’d like to see it and I’ll see if the mods will post it. You’re new here. Learn this: there is nothing I say that I cannot back up with documentation. If you have the infamous LDS persecution complex you won’t last long here. Don’t forget about 1 Peter 2:24. It’s all about the cross.
There is a typo in my post above. In the above quote from Dr. Durham it should read:
“All available evidence suggests that Joseph Smith the Prophet possessed a magical Masonic medallion, or talisman, which he WORKED during his lifetime and which was evidently on his person when he was martyred.”
For some reason the “click to edit” feature is not working for me on my computer when I click on it. Does anybody else have this problem?
The fact that our Mormon friends need to come to grips with is that their founder/prophet brought forth his religion from that which he practiced i.e. folk magic (arts). Now, where would such a religion have its origin? Smith denied the God of the Bible and sought to make himself “a god”. Doesn’t that kind of send up a red flag? The fact that Mormon temples were set-up with a baptismal rite for the dead for the expressed purpose of communicating with the dead…..come on….how obvious does it have to be? The symbol of the cross is rejected by Mormonism and Mormons use a lame excuse that it’s a symbol of an execution…..now what spiritual entity wouldn’t want the cross and the reminder of Christ victory over sin and our salvation through his sacrifice, as a constant reminder.
OK so our Mormons can choose between Smith’s Jupiter Tailsman or the Cross of Christ. They can revere Prophet Smith’s magic rock or the Rock of Salvation, Jesus Christ. They can worship the eternal, everlasting God or a man dressed up to kind of look like a god. The desire to have Mormonism be true has clouded the reasoning of Mormons. But God does give people over to their own desires.
This was also posted originally on August 18, 2008 on “Rejecting the Cross”.
Staying on topic and also following my past post in which others have been discussing the pentagram as displayed on LDS buildings, I would like to offer as further evidence the Temple of Set and it’s trademark logo. There is much I could say about the Temple of Set. First, it’s extremely dangerous when it comes to outright occultic practices and the worship of Satan. Michael Aquino, the founder, established this occultic sect when he left the Church of Satan in the 1970’s. Most people think that the Church of Satan worships Satan – they don’t. They believe Satan is just symbolic and the real worship is of self. The Temple of Set is very aggressive in it’s worship of the pagan god Set who is the god of chaos. This is Lucifer to them. With so many occultic practices brandishing the pentagram as their logo I would like to think that the LDS Church would want to distance itself from it. However they don’t. Compare the logo of the Temple of Set to the logo on the picture of the LDS Museum of Church History and Art…come to your own conclusions if they are a match. While the Mormons don’t worship Set, they are dabbling in symbolism that has strong occultic ties.
I have never gone past the introduction page to the Temple of Set for spiritual reasons so please use discretion and discernment. I merely offer proof of its logo to make my point.
http://www.xeper.org/
You can read more about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
The cross of Christ is at odds with symbols like these. There is no fellowship with light with darkness. Demonic forces that embrace symbols of the pentagram are repulsed by the sight of the cross especially the crucifix. There is power in the cross because of what Christ did for us there and the demons know it thus they hate it. Their fate was forever sealed when Jesus paid our sin debt there – not in the Garden of Gethsemane.
In our discussion here about symbols, what can we conclude about Joseph Smith’s magic rock. We know that Mormons reject the Cross of Christ as a symbol but did/do Mormons worship this magic rock of Joseph Smith?
Curious business: “……President Woodruff ‘Before leaving,’ he writes, ‘I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth (ground), and carried by him through life’ This is the very seer stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the Book of Mormon; the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra, for Mr. Clark Chase,…..” (p.120; Temple Manifestations)
Now in my Catholic school days, I don’t recall anyone worshiping a statue or a crucifix but it seems that Mormons had a little worship deal going with Joseph Smith’s magic rock. So while they’re dedicating this temple so they can get a super mojo going with the spirits of dead people, they bring in the magic rock and put it on the temple altar. That probably had the effect of drawing all kinds of interesting spirit visitors. Never can tell what demon figures would attach themselves to a magic rock; one so valued by the magic practicing prophet.
Symbols have meaning. The Cross of Christ symbolizes the price that was paid for our sins. Christ blood, shed on that Cross, covers us and provids for us the means of our salvation. What does Joseph Smith’s magic rock symbolize? It symbolizes the source of his power and means by which he communicated with the spirit world. These are not small insignificant matters. People have a clear path to follow in the Jesus of the Bible. The one who atoned for our sins and provides us with eternal life, extended to us by God’s grace, accepted by faith.
Thank you, Sharon, for your article. While reading it, the first thing that came to my mind was 1 Cor 1:18, which a couple others have cited here. So much is said in that verse.
I couple years ago I enjoyed a Bible study based on the book of Galatians. The study was produced by Campus Crusade for Christ. I have the study on 6:14, in which the Apostle powerfully states that may he never boast, except in the Cross.
The study was quite informative, and I’d like to include a few of its passages here, for the consideration of your readers:
Paul’s boast is in the cross that gives him eternal salvation. At the heart of the cross is the concept of grace.
…
The cross was an object of shame to the Judaizers [legalists] but it was the object of praise to Paul. They gloried in the flesh; Paul gloried in God.
…
Religion is based on human performance while Christianity is based on God. Religion always rests on self-righteousness, not God’s righteousness that comes from Christ’s cross.
…
The believer does not look for pardon in self but in Christ. If we look for forgiveness in self, we put God under obligation to forgive us. If we glory in the cross, we glory in the matchless attributes of God because it took the cross to give us a perfect and absolute righteousness.
…
The cross is the accomplishment of Christ, not us. When God does the work, this is grace. When we do the works, this is works-righteousness.
…
Legalists put little focus on the cross and more on themselves. To those who are graced-oriented, the cross means everything.
A Big BINGO to Brian.
Here’s the part Mormons absolutely hate: “At the heart of the Cross is the concept of grace”.
One thing I’ve learned from my time here on Mormon Coffee is that Mormons do not get grace. Countless numbers of Christians who post here have explained grace and I’ve concluded that either Mormons don’t want to understand it or the spirit that they’re under won’t allow them to understand it. It’s the same old Mormon ho hum chant “I suppose you think you can just go on sinning because you’re saved” routine, repeated endlessly. Grace makes no sense in the performance based religous system known as Mormonism. And why should it? Mormonism is all about making yourself into a god. Why would they need the cross or God’s grace if they can perform their way into the Celestial Kingdom?
The Cross depicts the terrible price that was paid for our sins. It shows our indebtedness to God for what He has done for us because we aren’t able to do it for ourselves. Mormons think they can do it for themselves. And of course, as Christians we believe we are sinners by nature. Imputed judgement as guilty. But God imputed His righteousness to us not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of His mercy. God did for us, what we are unable to do for ourselves. The transformed life that we live is in gratitude for this gift that God has given us.
I may just stop right here and have church!
St Crispin,
You claim I cannot be a mormon, but I am wondering a few things.
Why is it you can go back to quote things I said to try and prove me wrong, but us Christians are not allowed to quote from the prophets to prove our points?
I quote from the JoD and lds call fowl, yet LDS quote from it.
Then if your BoM and LDS prophets and leaders have said this about Christians, why would you want to call your self one?
If this is true why would you want to call yourself a christian?
Then if you claim your a Christian and were simply different denominations, then I can tell people I am LDS but Give them the real Gospel. Rick b
Dear falcon,
Thanks. And thank you for your fine insight on this subject. I have a couple comments for you:
1. I agree with you that in a religious system where one believes that one is good, and is capable of deserving heaven, the cross and grace seem quite meaningless. Once, I listened to a sermon in which the following question was posed: “If you can get to heaven by being good, then why did Jesus Christ have to die?” (The pastor said he often asked this of unbelievers.) “They all answer it the same way. Would you like to hear it? They answer: ‘Uh, I don’t know.'”
2. You’ve noticed that often, people who have not yet accepted God’s grace will liken grace to an excuse to go and sin, sin, and sin some more. The late, brilliant Dr. D. James Kennedy had such an interesting response to this. Once, he was talking with a young man who asked him, “You mean I can just go and sin as much as I want?” Dr. Kennedy explained that those who view grace in this way are confirming what the Bible says about them. They prove their hearts are depraved, for they have just said, if given the opportunity, they would like to engage in much sin. This confirms what the Bible has said about them: they are not good. Hence, their hope of heaven (which is their own goodness) is hollow.
My Pastor tells everyone this, when it comes to Sharing the gospel he does not want to waste his time and theirs, So he always asks, Is the Cross Foolishness to you? If they reply with Yes, then he figures they will not want to hear or receive his message.
It seems to me the LDS will answer No, but yet the Cross and Gods grace are foolish to the LDS and Grace is not really from God but from the Devil. Rick b
Berean,
Yes you might have been at a talk by someone who discussed the Jupiter talisman, but have you gone through the actual evidence out there? Here is a website that discusses the claim that Joseph had the talisman on his person when he died and a major flaw in the claim. I have included their reference to the evidence against at the end.
http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/talis.html
Are you going to claim cover-up conspiracy like you accuse us LDS of – that someone stole it before it was given to the lawyer or that the lawyer did not record it?
Here is some more for that website –
So the story is not as ‘cut and dried’ as you make it out.
Berean,
Are you naturally obdurate or are you making a special effort here?
I stated: “LDS children often wear CTR (Choose the Right) rings or tie clips – but this is because CTR is a motto in the children’s Sunday School Class (Primary) and is the name of the class age group for 5 to 8 year olds.”
Yet you claim: “Only children from ages 5 to 8? You know that’s not a true statement.”
and: “You give readers the impression from your comments on the CTR ring that only children wear them all the while leaving out that adults wear them too.”
Nowhere in my brief statement do I state or give the impression that only children wear CTR rings.
On the contrary, I said “LDS children often wear CTR (Choose the Right) rings or tie clips”. That statement does not in any way imply a sense of exclusion. I do not state that ONLY LDS children wear CTR rings. Is that not patently clear?
To reiterate: “Please, try to read the post a little more thoughtfully before making such rash charges. I know that you are more astute than that.”
Berean et al.,
The whole episode of the Jupiter Talisman epitomizes the the sheer intellectual dishonesty that has always characterized much of the false accusations made against the LDS Church, its leaders and people.
Mormon critics love to parade this notion that Joseph Smith owned a Jupiter talisman. There is absolutely no primary evidence for this accusation. As Ralph noted, Dr. Durham himself (the originator of this claim) recants from his previous statements and states:
“the idea that the Prophet had such a talisman is highly questionable”.
It is readily apparent that in 1937 (almost a 100 years after the death of Joseph Smith) Charles Bidamon was trying to pawn off the worthless trinket to Wilford Wood who collected Mormon memorabilia. By fabricating a fantastic story of how this trinket was a Jupiter talisman once owned Joseph Smith undoubtedly increased the trinket’s price.
No great mystery here – just another example of greed and duplicity on the part of an individual who was definitely unfriendly to the LDS Church. This seems very similar to the infamous Mark Hoffman forgeries.
The whole background to this episode is readily available to anyone who cares to look it up (see http://www.fairlds.org). Notwithstanding all the evidence that repudiates the Jupiter talisman, the fact that Mormon critics continue to parade this story to bolster their false accusations against Joseph Smith and the LDS Church clearly demonstrates their dishonesty.
St. Crispin,
Do you really think your arrogant attitude strengthens the hollow words you spout? I am generally patient with those who aspire to pedantic babble, but your disrespect for others needs to be addressed. Your response to Falcon that he was not worth the time simply reveals your hard heart and sense of pride. Furthermore, I know you could not refute every point of what you perceive to be false accusations. Frankly, one cannot refute the truth, but can only attempt to distort and manipulate facts–which is what Mormons do in their attempts to defend the false teachings of JS, your beloved “prophet.” But, hey, if you really think you can, why don’t you write a book? Your explanations as to why the LDS Church does not display or respect the cross are empty words that reveal the emptiness of the LDS theology regarding the Work and Person of Jesus Christ. You prove loudly that you and the rest of your Mormon siblings do not truly grasp the biblical text. I see you all as victims of JS, but at some point you need to respond to God’s grace in your life and begin to put the Bible in its proper place of authority, which means you need to judge the teaching of JS against the Bible and not the other way around. When you do this, you will begin to see the Light and no longer be ashamed of the cross. You will also reach a crisis moment in your life of whether or not you should respond to God or continue in the lies of JS. It’s up to you, crisp.
Peace and Grace!
See here’s the deal, why is the Joseph Smith and the Jupiter Tailsman report even plausable? What would make anyone even think it could be true? It’s believable for one reason and that is because Joseph Smith was tied-up in the occult and it was the occult influence that effected the design of his religion. If Joseph and his Jupiter were not plausable, the claim could be dismissed out of hand. But the fact remains, Joseph Smith’s foundation was in the magic arts. That’s who he was and that was the basis for his religion.
The rest of it, the 33 wives for example, was just standard cult leader’s fantasy come true. That’s where these boys always head. Sex is power and it’s the area of people’s greatest vulnerability. He not only controlled the women with it, but also the men by having them acquesce to it.
This guy was one bad dude, period.
Berean,
A pentagram is a 5 pointed star. That’s all. If one wants to place a meaning onto as a symbol then they can but then they need to explain what that meaning is. Yes there are 5 pointed stars on the temples you have mentioned, and most of them are not inverted. They are there for decoration as they are part of God’s creations, just like the moon and sun are also on the temples for decorations. They are revolved around to make things more interesting rather than having them all the one way.
It’s like the snake. In Genesis, the snake represented Satan. I have seen many in the occultish movements ‘revere’ snakes etc. Look at heavy metal bands, they display snakes on their album covers in various positions with women; ‘A Clockwork Orange’ has a poster in the bedroom with a similar theme; Alice Cooper, Ozzy Ozborn and others pose with snakes around them. The list can go on. But in Exodus (I think) Moses makes a brass serpent and places it on a pole and anyone bitten by a snake would be instantly healed if they just looked at it. That ‘snake’ was a representation of Jesus and His atonement. It is a symbol used these days in the medical/health profession because of this reference. So the same ‘symbol’ is used today with 2 different meanings. It’s the same with the 5 pointed stars on the temples – they are used as decorations and possibly symbols of the terrestrial (?) kingdom; they have nothing to do with the occult as you wish to push.
BTW, the Israelites looked at the serpent, not the stick it was placed on. I look to Christ, not the cross He was placed on.